0:08

Hello, welcome to another edition of

0:10

Notificent. I am one half of your host Danny

0:13

Fernandez. Today I'm joined by

0:15

two of my dear friends that I've known

0:18

for years, for actual

0:20

years, and I'm really excited for them to

0:22

tell you about their podcast

0:25

because I've been involved in a way.

0:28

Um but today we are talking about do

0:30

Jin Shei, which if you don't know what it is, we're going to

0:32

get into it. And I'm joined by hosts and

0:35

writers and my close personal friends

0:37

Ema five in Chris Lamb, Hello,

0:41

Hi, thank you so great

0:43

to virtually be here. I

0:45

know I miss I miss

0:48

us. I guess we're kind of like we always see each

0:50

other at events, right, like

0:52

cons and

0:55

er. It's one of the weirder things

0:58

I think is that you know, even people in

1:00

in our profession who largely are freelancers,

1:03

and you often are working independently

1:05

at home unless for whatever reason you

1:07

know you're lucky enough like oh you're in a writer's room

1:10

or you're on set that day or whatever. There is a lot

1:12

of sort of independent work that goes

1:14

into it. But because a

1:17

lot of what we do work wise takes

1:20

us out to events, I feel

1:22

like I'm often so busy that conventions

1:24

are when I see all of my friends that I would

1:26

normally just see in Los Angeles anyway, but we

1:28

never have time for each other in l A. I

1:31

know, I Christ, do you feel the same way

1:34

I do? Um, that's kind of

1:37

one of the um things

1:40

about having good tastes and

1:42

friends and aligning yourself with people who you know

1:44

who know their stuff is that

1:46

they are successful, and oftentimes

1:48

that means that, UM, it can be hard

1:50

to catch up, but you know, it's definitely

1:53

something that um,

1:56

I try to accept, but it's also hard

1:59

re accepting it in this different context,

2:01

right. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind

2:03

of weird because I was really mixed about Comic

2:06

Con being canceled

2:08

because that's so many people like I

2:10

feel for the artists, like I feel for

2:12

the people who really bank on making a lot of money

2:14

at that time and they that's like, uh

2:17

there, yeah, time to shine For

2:19

me as a creator. It was kind of like it

2:22

felt like I could catch my breath, like

2:24

you know, and it was just like it's an

2:26

honor and a privilege to be able to do

2:28

as much as we do. However, con season

2:31

is just kind of one thing after another after another,

2:33

and sometimes I believe in like quality

2:36

over quantity, I would say, and

2:38

so it's just nice getting to

2:41

me. It was like so mixed because it was like

2:43

I have so much anxiety, especially

2:45

as an extroverted introvert.

2:48

I feel like that is a thing maybe

2:50

like all of us are where we like are

2:52

very um passionate about our craft

2:55

and really good at what we do, and we're like on camera,

2:57

but when we're off camera, it's kind of like, Okay,

2:59

this is my little shell and please don't invade

3:02

my bubble. I'm really you know, And

3:04

so just the whole anxiety,

3:06

and I think there's an extra level of

3:10

it's become really Hollywood, like it's

3:12

maybe I've been going since I was eleven,

3:14

and it's really Hollywood now, Like they

3:16

have shows they promote that aren't even nerdy. It'll

3:18

just be like Kenna ken Wait

3:21

or like you, I mean young

3:23

Sheldon, I guess is ners still it'll

3:25

be Yeah, It's true like that there is with

3:27

with San Diego Comic Con, particularly there

3:29

there is this very extreme level

3:32

of marketing that's going on. And

3:34

yet because you do still

3:37

have your you know, obviously

3:40

in in recent years they've pulled out, but

3:42

until very recently, you would have your big Marvel

3:44

Cinematic Universe paneling, you would have your big

3:46

Marvel Television panel and your Warner Brothers panel,

3:49

and so you did feel like you

3:51

still really had to be there or

3:54

you were going to be missing out on

3:56

something. I know exactly how you feel about Danny

3:58

because I felt the same way

4:00

where I was like, it's kind of a relief

4:02

in some ways, but on the other hand,

4:05

then in my like Instagram memories,

4:07

a picture came up of like me and

4:09

and Xander genre I think, like out drinking

4:12

on that Wednesday when everyone's first

4:14

getting into town in San Diego, and I was like, I

4:16

don't know, it is really fun though, so

4:19

I just I was gonna say what I feel about it being

4:21

Hollywood as it turns into like, hey,

4:24

did you get into this party? Got into this party?

4:26

And can you get me into this party? And it's just that's

4:28

not what it is. It reminds me exactly

4:30

what happened to us when we were kids,

4:33

like when we were nerds, and now we're being treated

4:35

like nerds again because they're not other

4:38

party and party

4:41

right, and it's like, oh, you didn't get into the e W party?

4:43

Okay, well, you know, maybe we'll meet

4:45

up with you after. It's just like, it's

4:47

just like I did not live my life

4:49

as I'm not going to get

4:51

in so let yeah, these popular

4:55

Hollywood people make me feel bad.

4:57

So that's the other side. I think that

5:00

a lot of people don't see for at least for

5:02

us. And so when it was postponed

5:04

or canceled or whatever, I was like, oh my gosh, the idea

5:06

that I'm not going to have to deal with the

5:09

flaunting who you know, who's

5:12

at this and who got on what panel? Who is doing

5:14

so much? And like, I mean,

5:17

I will say that just in

5:19

on the sort of opposite end of the

5:21

San Diego comic con spectrum, what I

5:24

have found to be. I mean, obviously,

5:26

there are tons of small conventions

5:28

around the world that really are more focused

5:30

on, um, celebrating

5:33

people coming together to enjoy something

5:35

that they love, as opposed to as you say,

5:37

be seen at a party. Um. But I will

5:39

say that my experience was Star Wars Celebration

5:42

was much more like those small conventions, which

5:44

is like everyone at Star Wars Celebration was

5:46

there because they loved Star Wars. There

5:48

weren't any cool parties that people were

5:50

worried about getting into. Everybody who

5:53

normally are peers who are in again

5:55

at that level at San Diego Comic Con, of possibly

5:58

some of them do get invited to the w party

6:00

and if you're not one of them, then you're not doing

6:02

as well as everybody else. At Stars Celebration, like

6:04

everyone was just hanging out with the Merriott bar, it was

6:07

so much more low key, um

6:09

and it really, it really was. It was so much

6:11

fun. It was so so much fun. Um.

6:14

So yeah, that you know, conventions, they're they're

6:16

they're a mixed bag. But you

6:18

know idea, I was going to say, it's like apples and oranges

6:21

at this yeah, yeah,

6:24

yeah, yeah, So that's my and I

6:26

do love Saneo. Comic Con has

6:28

been like my you know, home

6:31

and love and stuff since my family's from

6:33

San Diego, so it's been a huge part

6:35

of my growing up. It was just watching

6:37

it change, I think is why it was kind of just

6:40

like relieved to get a break from it,

6:42

because it is has turned very

6:44

like I said, Hollywood, and so it just is

6:47

kind of for me. I was like, oh, finally I don't

6:49

have to deal with like the Hollywood

6:52

networking like media

6:54

con that it has become, and

6:57

you know, can geek out about things with

6:59

my friends on this podcast. Speaking

7:01

of geeking out, UM, as you

7:03

all know, every week we talked about something

7:05

that we're nerding out about, and Chris, I wanted

7:07

to ask you first, is there anything that you're super into

7:09

right now? I'm

7:11

so happy you asked that. So I

7:14

think for me, I'm

7:16

really excited about, you know, miss

7:18

everything going up in

7:20

flames and us in this time

7:22

of heaval right now, I have been

7:25

anticipating the

7:28

game Ghost of Tsushima. Oh

7:31

and can you tell people what it's about?

7:33

I don't know. Yeah. So it is a

7:35

RPG made by Sucker Punch. It was announced

7:37

in two thousand seven, two thousand sorry,

7:40

two thousand eighteen. I believe

7:43

UM and they were really inspired

7:45

by Kurosawa films basically,

7:48

UM, the very famous black and white samurai

7:50

films. If you're not familiar with them, I was not until

7:53

I heard about Sushima. That's how I

7:55

get into a lot of things through video

7:57

games. And UM,

8:00

I've been actually watching Karrosawa films and

8:02

kind of preparation for the

8:04

game, and it's been really really educational

8:06

and UM,

8:09

the actor that he has in the two

8:11

movies that I watched, Seven Samurai

8:14

and Yo Jimbo. He is very

8:16

very hot. He's dead now, but he's hot. Um.

8:20

I think you would really like him, Danny. No.

8:22

I mean I feel that way about the guy who plays Satan

8:24

in The Holleen Man. He's past,

8:26

but he'll live on very hotly

8:29

in my heart. He

8:31

just has like he just has like that

8:33

level of drip before like drip was invented,

8:36

you know, Like that's

8:38

what I'm talking about, you know, Like he has like there's

8:42

like this really great picture. I should send it to you. Like

8:44

there's this great picture where he has like he

8:46

does that thing where like he takes his arm and like

8:48

he puts it back into his shirt

8:51

and like he is like rubbing his five

8:53

o'clock shadow like through um

8:56

the neck hole of his uh

8:59

yukata kimono. Situation.

9:02

That was really hot that you did it, though. It

9:04

was thank you, thank you, thank you.

9:07

Um what about you, Emma, what are you geeking out

9:09

about? Oh? Well? I finally

9:12

came around to playing Persona

9:14

five Royal. So I played the original Persona five,

9:16

which was released in two thousands sixteen,

9:20

or maybe it was early seventeen. Somewhere in that

9:22

time period, um uh

9:24

and I had

9:26

been wanting to play Royal Edition, which

9:29

is just like the expanded remastered version.

9:31

They've added a bunch of new characters

9:33

and new gameplay elements that actually are

9:36

really really good. It makes it totally

9:38

worth replaying a hundred plus our game. Um

9:41

but I had not necessarily

9:43

been ready to jump into it. So it came out

9:46

right before the Final Fantasy seven remake

9:48

was released. It came out like end of March, and Final Fantasy

9:50

seven Remake came out April ten, So

9:52

I went, I don't really want to get into

9:54

this one. I know that I'm going to start the Final

9:57

Fantasy seven remake. And then when I

9:59

finished remake, I went, I don't really have the emotional

10:01

energy for persone of five yet. But

10:03

then all of a sudden, I was struck with I

10:05

needed to play this game, and it has been

10:08

so so much fun, particularly

10:11

to play it on my Twitch stream

10:13

with an audience. It's just like

10:16

again, I'm loving all of the changes

10:18

that they made to the game. The new characters are all

10:20

super interesting. I just met the

10:23

school psychologist, who was a new addition

10:26

to Royal addition, and like, let

10:28

me tell you, he keeps

10:30

offering me to come to his office to have

10:32

some snacks. You a

10:34

snack onto yourself, Like, ah,

10:38

this isn't anything new to the original game. That Danny

10:40

just to let you know there are adults

10:43

that have a crush on the high school

10:45

boy. It's very complicated problem.

10:48

Sorry, okay, I don't pay attention. No,

10:50

yeah, but no, no, no, this this I

10:53

just don't write me. I do not play this game. I

10:56

don't know what you guys were talking about, but

10:58

I just heard. No shame. Just know that there

11:01

there is um

11:03

equally as intense things happening in the original

11:05

Yes, um

11:07

yeah, this has not crossed any lines

11:10

as of yet. But listen,

11:13

he's I am an adult

11:15

woman. I am into this character,

11:18

an adult man. Let me be right, right

11:20

right, there's there's game play. There's

11:22

role playing, a

11:25

role playing game. So you're right,

11:27

you're right, You're right. Um.

11:30

The thing that I'm geeking out about is actually

11:33

uh an artist named Sailor Jubs.

11:36

She's Julia Mellow. She's a Brazilian

11:39

artist, and um, she needed

11:41

too. She was taking commissions because she just moved

11:44

and wanted to pay for her apartment, and

11:46

so I bought up a bunch of commissions and

11:48

had her do my friends and

11:51

so she did amazing

11:53

artwork, Like some of y'all saw it on my feed.

11:56

It was so real.

11:58

She got Danielle Radford who's been on our

12:01

Buffy episode, Joel Monique, who is

12:03

our producer who's listening right now. Um,

12:06

she did Sabina Graves who was on our Haunted

12:08

Mansion episode. She did my friend

12:11

Kata and Dreusco. Like but just like so spot

12:13

on, and I can tell you all, this is

12:15

such a great gift. It

12:17

wasn't even that much like she was.

12:20

You know, she had full body or half body commissions

12:22

where she would do a portrait of your friends and

12:24

it's like such a great surprise, or

12:27

like if it's someone's birthday, it was to be in his birthday,

12:29

so I sent hers to her. But like,

12:31

it was just so spot on, and

12:33

it helped this independent artist pay

12:35

for her apartment, and it also was a great

12:37

gift for my friends. So again she goes

12:39

by at sailor Jubs it's

12:42

j U b S. And

12:44

she is such a great artist

12:46

and just really kind. Yeah, I

12:48

when you posted those photos I

12:51

or that artwork. Rather I scrolling

12:53

through, I didn't have to like see who

12:56

was tagged in which picture. I knew exactly

12:58

who everybody was. It was

13:00

so and it was so great and it was just

13:02

like we all have different skin tones,

13:05

we all have different hair textures, and like

13:07

she was just able to capture everybody's beauty

13:10

and um, that was just I

13:12

just thought she did such a great job. So props

13:15

to her. And we're

13:17

talking about art today.

13:22

Art. So

13:24

for people who don't quite know

13:27

or haven't heard the term DUGITSI like,

13:29

what is that? Well,

13:32

it is it is very simply

13:34

fan created works that

13:37

are typically derivative of,

13:40

uh an existing piece of fiction. So

13:42

while in the States, I think

13:44

we tend to think of it as only

13:46

being fan created comics,

13:48

it also is a term

13:51

that applies to like fan art collections

13:53

or two published light novels.

13:56

The key is is that it is people

13:59

self publishing. Like I said, it is largely

14:02

um work that is derivative of

14:04

other works, but it's not necessarily

14:08

like bottom line has to be in order

14:11

to be considered Dogenci, Right,

14:13

yeah, yeah, So the way I was going to explain it to people

14:16

is like, if you know fan fiction, which

14:18

is like if you read say, Harry Potter fan fiction,

14:21

that's not written by J. K.

14:23

Rowling or any of the other authors

14:26

that have been involved. It is um

14:28

by fans, and so this

14:30

is fan created art. So

14:33

it looks like manga, looks like a comic book.

14:35

Um, very beautiful drawing some

14:37

of them. I mean, you can't really tell between

14:39

the original manga d I

14:42

mean you definitely come across Dogenci creators

14:44

who are real good

14:47

at mimicking the art

14:50

style of the original. Yeah.

14:52

So the only difference between mainstream manga

14:54

and original Dogenci Dogenci

14:58

is that Dogenci is not public by a

15:00

publishing company, itself published.

15:02

Yeah, it's it's kind of the same

15:04

way that fan works. And honestly,

15:06

you know, like let's plays on video

15:08

games, right, It's it's

15:11

all done with the unspoken

15:14

agreement between the fan community and

15:16

the original creator that like, you know, okay,

15:18

like you know, I'll I won't do

15:20

anything because this is really

15:22

good for the community and I want to support other artists, and

15:24

this is a great way for artists to get their work out by

15:26

using you know, in a pre existing I p so

15:30

um. But if they wanted to they could. So,

15:33

what was your first the

15:36

first dogenci that

15:38

you stumbled upon? Well,

15:42

let me see, I I had

15:45

a I really think

15:48

I was aware of doginci

15:51

in the same way that a lot of

15:54

people in the US become

15:56

aware of doginci. And and what I do

15:59

believe is and really be attitude

16:01

that a lot of Westerners have towards do ginci

16:03

um is that it is all uh,

16:06

adult in nature, shall we say?

16:09

Um? So, I think the first sort of doginci

16:11

that I ever came across it

16:14

was just I was really into this um this

16:17

computer game called Ragnarok Online.

16:19

Uh, and for whatever reason,

16:21

there was just an influx

16:24

of dojinci um

16:26

that was, you know, kind of of the tentacle

16:28

porn variety, shall we say, oh

16:31

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, which I which I came

16:33

across um. But I definitely also

16:36

uh, as I got more

16:39

involved in fandom and in

16:41

fan works, Uh,

16:43

the first ones I can remember where there was really

16:45

like a story to be followed,

16:48

and they weren't all

16:51

necessarily like really explicit

16:53

in nature, though they were like shown

16:55

and I stories are like boys love, which

16:58

is a big um sub genre with INJOGINCHI

17:00

in particular, but it was like Gundam wing Um

17:03

because that was airing onto Nami in

17:05

like early two thousand's, I want to say.

17:08

And so at that point we had also like just

17:10

gotten high speed internet. Uh,

17:12

and I I did what all

17:15

not all, but many many young

17:17

women who get into that

17:19

particular show or any any other number of shows

17:22

where the majority of characters are the

17:24

primary characters are young

17:26

attractive men, you know, b shownn

17:29

um. And I started off

17:31

being like, I don't really like any of the girls on this show.

17:34

I'm gonna write fan fiction um. And I was

17:36

writing like Mary sus um,

17:38

which if you don't know what a Mary Sue is, it's

17:40

a It's a very uh idealized

17:43

female character, often seen a

17:45

sort of a self insert when creating fan

17:47

works. But then I pivoted completely into

17:49

being like, no, I want these boys to kiss each other

17:52

um and uh and yeah,

17:54

so I would say that there there

17:56

was definitely some like Hiro Duo,

17:59

Gundham wing Ocean she that I

18:01

And it was the same thing where it's like I started

18:03

with like dipping my even though again I'd

18:06

already I had gone like full tentacle porn, and I

18:08

was like I need to step back from this. So I was like, oh,

18:10

this is like kind of a nice love

18:12

story and like they kiss but it's not anything

18:15

explicit, or maybe they even just hold hands,

18:17

but you know that. I then I pivoted into full

18:19

on pornography. But yeah, wow,

18:22

what about you, Chris. Yeah,

18:25

so I started. I can remember

18:27

it like it was yesterday. Um,

18:30

it was Naruto and Sauce easily.

18:35

And I definitely was kind

18:37

of in the similar trajectory of like, Okay,

18:40

you know this is shown and I, which is known

18:42

to be not porn you

18:44

know, it's it's very light romance.

18:47

It's about the romance, not about the sex, you know. And

18:50

so I was like, hmmm, this is

18:52

a little boring for me. I want something

18:54

a little bit more raunchy than this. I want to see

18:57

them actually do things. And so I

19:00

looked further. I found what I wanted, and I

19:02

also found a lot more narrowto ships, because

19:05

I mean there's so many characters in there. Obviously it's

19:07

tread or show really um awesome

19:10

as Sen Sa Kakashi and Dha

19:12

Sen say um. And

19:15

then I think that was kind of like my

19:17

gateway into ntai

19:20

proper. And then my gateway into actual

19:22

porn with real people. There's

19:25

this weird trajectory. I I'm pretty sure

19:27

I've told Emma this before on the podcast

19:29

Live, where I

19:31

had this weird sense of like, oh,

19:34

these aren't real people, and so like I'm better

19:36

than most of the people that are actually watching actual

19:38

porn, Like that's for the

19:41

really raunchy and sinful people in

19:43

this world. And then I just

19:46

joined them. That's so funny to

19:48

be like I'm observing

19:50

art. Yes, yes, that

19:52

I think that is exactly the attitude that

19:55

that a lot of people have is yeah, you're like, these

19:57

these are drawings, this is artwork. Somebody like

20:00

took the time to do this. I mean

20:02

they are very beautiful, meticulous art,

20:05

but also boobies yep,

20:08

yep. Um mine was I talked

20:10

on y'all's podcast, and mine was

20:14

Vegeta and Boma from Dragon ball Z. Because

20:16

I think when you look for it's the same reason

20:18

you reach out and read fan fiction is when

20:20

you're looking up do Ginci is because

20:23

you're looking for

20:25

more. You want to like

20:28

see the things that they're not showing on the show. Yes,

20:30

exactly right, exactly right. Yeah,

20:33

So you're like, what what is happening when they're

20:35

not fighting? What is happening when the TV

20:38

turns off? And so

20:40

um. So that's why I was looking at Vegeta

20:43

Boma and they have beautiful, great,

20:45

also very sexual um

20:48

strips, you know, these manga strips of

20:51

them. So we're actually going to

20:53

dive into the history

20:56

of do Ginci right after

20:58

this and

21:07

we're back. I'm still here with

21:09

Emma and Chris. We're trying to not be

21:11

too spicies, just spicy enough

21:15

because y'all are gonna y'all are gonna go and look at

21:18

you know, we will tweet some of our favorites

21:20

that were allowed to allowed to post,

21:22

so okay, so we'll we'll get more into this as

21:25

we get deeper into the history of DOI.

21:27

But one of the reasons that do has

21:29

been able to continue to exist

21:33

without any pushback from publishers

21:35

is because it doesn't have mass

21:38

market distribution. Yeah,

21:41

I mean that's true. They can

21:43

sell it though, because by so

21:46

technically they are making money off of

21:49

To me, it kind of reminds me though, like we

21:51

were just talking about Comic Con, when you go to artists Ali

21:53

and the print of Iron Man and

21:56

so that artist is able to make

21:59

you know their own R in their style,

22:01

but using an I Marvel I P. But

22:03

however they can make money off of it, correct,

22:06

Yeah. Yeah. Usually the way that I've

22:08

noticed that a lot of people sell it if

22:10

they decided to sell it online,

22:13

you know, like publicly like easily findable,

22:16

is they won't name the I P

22:18

that it's from or the character. Right then it'll be like,

22:21

you know, if they're selling like a Sailor moon fan at

22:25

Princess

22:27

something that reminds

22:29

me of like in Mexico there's dragon ball Z toys

22:32

and it will just be Power Up Man and

22:34

it'll be like like it'll

22:36

just be like but it'll be Superman's body

22:38

and Goku's hair. It was amazing,

22:41

amazing Golden Power Boy.

22:46

Okay. So the history of jo gin

22:48

Shei. The pioneer among jo ginchi magazines

22:51

was actually Morning Bell. It

22:53

was published in the early Meiji period since

22:56

eighteen seventy four. It's not a literary

22:58

magazine, but it played a big and spreading

23:00

the idea of dogin she So.

23:03

The first magazine to publish do

23:05

gin Shei novels was Library

23:08

of Odds and Ends. It was founded in eighteen

23:10

eighty five by writers Ozaki

23:12

Koyo and Yamada Bimo. That's

23:15

pretty cool. Yeah, it was all the way

23:17

back then. Yeah. I also, I also

23:19

love the name Library of Odds and Ends. I think that's

23:22

such a cute name. I know, it sounds

23:24

like it could be like a cute Netflix show that

23:26

they like Visit Different. Yeah,

23:30

it's it is. It's really interesting to see people that

23:32

are pioneering in the field

23:35

of like self publishing

23:38

or publishing fan derivative

23:40

works. It's amazing to think,

23:42

like, oh man, because I mean you think about

23:44

it, I'll bet that back in the day,

23:47

in the in the days of like the Greeks

23:49

and Greek mythology, there were people

23:51

out there that were that were writing fan fiction

23:54

about the gods. I mean, that's basically what it

23:56

was. It was all just like word of mouth stories being like,

23:58

yo, if you heard this story about Zeus, no,

24:00

tell me more, you know, right,

24:03

I mean, like he owns the rights to that, No, yeah,

24:06

exactly exactly. So

24:09

fast forward to Comic cat

24:11

which is the world's largest comic convention.

24:14

Is that still true to this day? Yeah, Oh

24:16

definitely, I'm pretty sure. Yeah, it's

24:18

certainly in terms of the

24:20

distribution of dojin Chi. Comic

24:23

Cat is like the event. Oh

24:27

I would I would say that Comic Cat is

24:29

actually so well known that is actually featured

24:31

in like Slice of Life anime

24:34

world, you know, like especially right

24:36

when when you have anime that's about like

24:39

manga cow or people that really love drawing, or

24:41

people that are into Yawi, which yes,

24:43

there are animals that are now about people that

24:45

like Yawi. Yeah. Can you tell people

24:47

that Yeaowe is for people that don't know yea and

24:50

I would I would love to Danny

24:52

think so much. Um

24:54

Yawe is basically

24:59

manga that is implied

25:01

to be smutty that's

25:04

usually between two men and

25:06

with very large hands. Funny,

25:10

how funny? Um

25:13

okay So. Comic Head, which is the world's largest

25:15

comic convention We've fast forward uh

25:19

century, is held twice a year

25:21

in Tokyo, Japan, and the first one was

25:23

held in December with

25:25

only thirty two participating circles

25:27

and an estimated six hundred attendees.

25:30

However, about eight of

25:32

them were female, which I

25:34

find so fascinating, like

25:37

scrapping, Yeah, because women

25:39

were having a hard time getting published.

25:42

Imagine that, uh

25:45

So, I think that is why there is a lot of participation

25:49

from women. And also, as Chris

25:51

and I've talked about pretty extensively even

25:53

on this episode of the podcast. Up to this point, there

25:56

is this big market for

25:58

yahwee and shown and I stuff, um,

26:00

which wouldn't necessarily be published

26:02

by publishers because you're dealing with

26:05

a taboo subject of homosexuality.

26:08

Um. Even though a lot of the

26:10

time the shown and I and yahwe stuff is

26:12

a little problematic because it's really women

26:14

projecting their sexual fantasies

26:17

into a scenario wherein there are no women.

26:19

It's gotten a lot better in more

26:21

recent years. Um. But yeah, I

26:23

mean because because of that, it

26:26

was it was allowing women to put

26:28

work out there to be purchased

26:30

by other women. Yeah.

26:33

And that's the thing is, I don't know if you like so

26:35

much of um DOGENTI. At least

26:37

the ones that I am into is very romantic.

26:40

It's very like heavy. You can feel

26:42

that even the men. We talked about this on my episode

26:45

of the show, they are kind of drama

26:47

in a feminine way. There's so much

26:49

really female gayzey boma

26:51

and do a boma and vegeta DOGENI.

26:54

It's kind of amazing, especially when you consider

26:56

the fact that that dragon Ball on

26:59

a base level is marketed

27:01

towards men, towards boards specifically.

27:04

Um. But the fact that you know, you do have

27:06

all of these women fans, I think that's another

27:08

reason why you do see so many um,

27:11

dog Chi Car Doginci creators, uh

27:13

and Dogenci circles. So so like

27:16

creators kind of all come together when it comes to

27:18

do Ginci, and unlike in

27:21

manga where typically it's the same person

27:24

who's drawing and writing the story, with Dogencia,

27:26

a lot of the time you will find like, oh, so

27:28

and so did the art, but some other person did the

27:30

story or somebody did the backgrounds, and

27:32

like they're ultimately kind of giving more

27:34

credit than like a single manga car who certainly

27:36

has assistance. Um. But I

27:39

think, yeah, it's like you're

27:41

also dealing with all of these women

27:43

that enjoy uh

27:46

media that is more

27:49

targeted towards men, but they're getting

27:51

something out of it, and so, as you say, Danny, like they

27:53

want to write those stories of what we're not

27:55

seeing when they're not fighting. You know, Yeah,

27:59

it's kind of the sense of removing the male gaze

28:01

and just really making

28:03

work that appeals

28:05

to that sensibility, right, because you know, obviously

28:07

probably men were still

28:11

uh inserting themselves into everything

28:13

back then. So which isn't to say

28:15

that there's not a lot of really

28:18

weird you know, objectifying

28:23

of women that happens in do jin chi and

28:25

stuff that's really male gazey. Oh, that is very

28:28

much out there as well, absolutely, um,

28:30

and I think, oh sorry,

28:33

Um, I just wanted to also mention, like I wanted

28:35

to kind of emphasize how secretive

28:38

this whole especially, Yeah, we had to

28:40

be back then, right, because it

28:42

even came in the term which we discussed in our podcast

28:45

of the term fujoshi, which is referring

28:48

to the women that enjoy Yawi and

28:50

shann and I, and basically,

28:53

roughly translated, it means rotten women

28:56

like rotten, like

28:58

like fermented rotten, you know, like ye smelly

29:01

smelly. Yeah. So

29:03

so okay, so women who enjoy

29:06

gay art

29:09

essentially as run. But is

29:11

that term also for the

29:14

men or is it just the women that are So

29:16

it's it's a really interesting, uh,

29:18

this situation because you know, we've

29:20

talked a lot about shoon and I in

29:22

about Yahwi, which is created almost

29:25

exclusively by women and for women.

29:28

There's another completely separate

29:31

subset of like

29:35

gay porn effectively in

29:37

the dogon Chi market, which is bata, which is

29:39

like fours that is

29:41

actually created like four gay men. It's

29:43

very it's very interesting.

29:46

Okay, So I wasn't aware that

29:48

Yeahwi was mainly for what

29:51

it's for women and it's almost exclusively

29:53

created by women. I did not,

29:56

I know, isn't that fascinating? Well, Chris,

29:58

I mean, I hope this is okay because we're such

30:00

close friends. But like, was that I mean when

30:02

you said that you were watching Yeah, like are

30:04

looking at yahwe like when you were maybe

30:07

before you came out or whatever. Like I

30:10

guess I'm trying to say, like is it since it's

30:12

just for women, but it seems like a lot of gay men are

30:15

consuming it and finding Yeah. Absolutely,

30:17

I mean, you know, obviously, I definitely think we're in a

30:19

point right now where a lot of men have been inspired

30:21

by yeawe that was originally

30:23

started by women, and now there are plenty of gay

30:26

artists that I do follow that um

30:28

also participate in this

30:31

Yahwe seen. But um,

30:33

yeah, definitely, I think it would

30:35

be more apt to kind of talk about.

30:38

I think M also has plenty of examples to about

30:40

just like kind of the maybe

30:43

the aspects of problematic nous that we've seen,

30:45

because I think they're pretty common. Like the most

30:47

common that I've seen is like two

30:50

guys and then this guy who's like, you know, a ladies

30:52

man. He's like, oh, you know, I usually don't go for

30:54

guys, but it's

30:57

a common trope in porn. Yeah.

31:00

Yeah. Another thing that comes

31:02

up a lot I feel like is again

31:05

it's even though it

31:07

is two men, they're still

31:10

very clearly defined roles

31:12

as far as like who the more feminine

31:14

one is the more submissive one, in

31:16

which one is the like dude in this relationship.

31:19

And as I say, like, this is something that has

31:22

gotten better

31:24

over time. Um, but you

31:26

know, especially if you look at some some early

31:28

examples, it's like, okay, well,

31:30

all right, this is about two

31:33

men, but really it's about women

31:36

being okay with enjoying sex. Like

31:38

truly, that's what I think of, you know, and

31:41

you prefaced this before we got you know,

31:43

at the top of this times. But digen,

31:46

she is not just sexual, No, it's

31:48

not at all, Like there are their entire

31:50

threads and volumes that don't have sex.

31:52

It's just when you're this is often

31:55

a lot of kids that are into anime.

31:57

It's kind of like what we're all saying, like this is our

32:00

the break between this and like actual

32:03

people are watching ports like when we're exploring

32:05

I think I found it in middle school, and

32:07

so you're kind of just like, who are these characters

32:10

that I trust? Right? It feels like a safe space

32:12

because this is like your your animated

32:14

show that you're into, but it has some adult themes

32:17

most anime does, um,

32:19

and so now you're kind of saying, like, oh,

32:21

this is their dating life. Okay, so this

32:23

is okay, they've gone on a couple of dates now and

32:25

they like each other, and now they're gonna possibly

32:28

explore sleeping together. Like it's kind

32:30

of like y a novel,

32:32

like totally, so they're not all

32:35

yeah, they're not all sexual, and like I really

32:37

do want to say that it's a lot of them is just

32:39

like regular comic books. Yeah, and

32:42

even as you say some of the ones that are

32:44

are sexual, it does have

32:47

that gradual build up two

32:49

characters being intimate with one another, and

32:51

so I you know, I think as far as

32:54

do Ginci goes in

32:58

some ways, Japan ends

33:00

almost more respectful of

33:03

fan derivative works than the

33:06

US is because again, as we saw, this

33:10

kind of publication has been

33:12

going on in Japan since the hundreds,

33:16

um, which is crazy. Uh,

33:19

but which isn't to say that it

33:21

hasn't been happening in the US. And certainly, you

33:23

know, early examples of fan fiction and things

33:25

in order to get any sort of distribution prior

33:27

to the Internet would appear in things like science

33:30

fiction magazines and other little publications

33:32

like that. Um. But I

33:34

think that there's

33:36

this weird stigma in

33:39

the US against fan fiction that is

33:41

getting better of like that somehow

33:43

it does not take skill, it is

33:45

not art and yeah in

33:48

some respects sure, but but Japan

33:50

really has this attitude with Ginchy of well,

33:53

these artists need to get

33:56

experience. Uh, they need to get

33:58

some kind of exposure. And so you know,

34:00

big publishing companies are absolutely

34:03

looking at what's out there in the dogen C market and

34:05

going, hey, this person is really good. We should hire

34:07

them to do something. And in addition to

34:10

again providing you with an outlet to

34:12

just create and not have to worry about

34:14

creating the world just taking characters that you already

34:17

know when you already like all of that is really positive.

34:19

And then, as you say, Danny, there is the

34:21

sexual aspect of it as well, because again

34:23

it is not exclusively adult

34:26

in nature, but the stuff that is you

34:29

as a teen, because I'm I'm the

34:31

same as you. I think I read my first Dogen

34:34

when I was in middle school or early

34:36

high school, and you are then able to

34:38

kind of like explore your sexuality

34:40

in a really safe way,

34:43

yeah, and talk to the most of like the places

34:45

that I would UM frequent

34:48

had like chat rooms and stuff that

34:50

I was I was in and we would talk about

34:52

the DOGENTI that we had read, or the fan

34:54

fiction that we read. We would link the fan fiction

34:57

that we liked, and it's just you know, I was just

34:59

thinking about this as I'm like

35:01

working on this show right now that is has

35:04

middle schoolers as the main um

35:07

characters, and it's really

35:10

fascinating because it's such an necessary you know, they're

35:12

not quite a little kids anymore, You're

35:14

not quite they're not quite adults,

35:16

and like it's still a necessary conversation

35:19

for both middle school and high school. I think the

35:21

hands off approach of like pretending

35:24

that they're not going to get you know, exploring

35:27

or whatever is so not helpful, and

35:29

even a lot of times people try to spin

35:31

it to be perverse, like, well, you're talking about

35:33

kids and sex like no, but also I lost

35:35

my virginia when I was a teenager, and it would be great

35:38

if I had. You know, a lot of those are virginities

35:40

as teenagers, and like it's in

35:42

most media, most shows that you watch

35:44

about high schoolers or college I mean

35:47

or college kids. But like most shows that

35:49

you watch that have high schoolers or

35:51

movies that have high schoolers, they're

35:54

exploring, and I think that it's instead

35:56

of hands off, like you can't watch this,

35:58

you can't look at this, you can't whatever, is

36:00

more like, let me make sure you have the resources

36:03

so you know what consent is, so you know

36:05

what um you

36:07

know protection and think like I'm

36:10

just so in the opposite direction where

36:12

I'm very like and that's what I mean when I say sex

36:14

positive, and it's like, you know, I lost my

36:16

virginity to another teenager,

36:18

so it wasn't like you know those things

36:21

to and that's okay, And we need to like

36:23

normalize having these conversations about

36:26

like not. I mean, I had to hide

36:28

everything from my parents. And I think I

36:30

think that's why people when they hear di Genti

36:32

or anime. Even when they hear anime, they immediately

36:35

think of tentacle, tentacle porn

36:37

and hent I like um,

36:40

and it's just seen as like that's one aspect

36:42

of it. It's just kind of exploring

36:45

these relate what dating

36:47

is like when you're in middle school in high

36:49

school, you I think my first boyfriend, you

36:52

know, we only like mad my made out or

36:54

whatever. But like I think my first boyfriend was in

36:56

middle school, and so it's like you're

36:59

starting to develop. And

37:01

even if my parents were like, no, don't do it, I'm still

37:03

going to do it. And so it's just like allowing

37:06

kids to have art and

37:09

literature that is, treats

37:11

them like in a respectable way

37:13

of what they're dealing with and not like they're

37:16

dumb, like you know,

37:18

idiot said, don't know what's going on. That's

37:20

a really good point because I never really thought about

37:23

it. But really it was do

37:26

Ginci that gave me a sense

37:28

of representation actually for the first time in my

37:30

right sure. Yeah, like like

37:32

literally it was fan works. Yeah,

37:35

and so there needs to be, like I think, just a

37:37

level of respect for this art and

37:39

think of the people that are making them. They

37:41

probably are also dealing

37:43

with those issues of sexual identity, totally

37:47

interpression, oppression, not

37:49

being able to come out to their family. So

37:51

this has definitely been a safe space. I

37:53

feel for a lot of us. We have

37:55

to take a really quick break, so much more to talk

37:58

about. We're

38:00

gonna talk about a little bit more of its history and

38:02

the future. Right after these messages

38:10

we are back. I'm still here with Emma

38:13

and Chris. So for people that are new

38:16

to do Genti, like, what is this word?

38:18

They keep saying, what are some like

38:21

famous anime that

38:24

have really cool do Genti that

38:26

you would be like, Oh, if you're into this, you should check

38:28

out this. Okay, Listen,

38:31

I went full tilt into

38:33

do Gentci again as as

38:36

an adult, again as a as a teen. I

38:39

was real good at the Internet. I was fine at all this do

38:41

Genti. I was reading that that gunn Bing

38:43

stuff, I was reading the dragon Ball, sailor

38:45

Moon all of it. What really

38:48

tilted me right back into it

38:51

because actually, ury on Ice nice.

38:54

Okay, So some people that don't know that

38:57

can you explain it to ury on ice is a

38:59

gay fake your skating anime. It's

39:01

beautiful and it also

39:05

was kind of I

39:08

don't want to say revolutionary, but it was important

39:10

from the perspective of it.

39:13

Really was it amidst

39:16

all of the amazing figure skating drama. By

39:18

the way, I watched this show like it was real figure skating.

39:21

I was like freaking out when people would skate.

39:23

Um. But there is this very

39:25

wholesome gay love story in it

39:28

that's not really refuted. It's so interesting

39:30

because there's a scene in it where

39:33

the two main characters kiss, but

39:36

like the like

39:38

URI's just finished skating, and so like Victor

39:40

like jumps onto the ice to give him a hug, and

39:42

like the angle of his arm is

39:45

such that you can't see that the two of them are kissing.

39:47

But like, it was mostly Western

39:49

fans that were like that was a cheap

39:51

shot and did the kiss I don't know,

39:54

And the creator was basically like, well it was

39:56

in Japan, nobody needed any additional confirmation.

40:00

But again, you're you're dealing with a with a disconnected

40:02

cultures there, um, I think. But

40:05

yeah, so there's there's a lot of real good Uryon Nice.

40:07

Uh, there's

40:10

a lot, there's a lot of good do What about

40:12

you, Chris, is there anything that you would recommend

40:14

for people to like google or look up if

40:16

they're like wanting to get into it. That

40:19

depends if they want to dip their toes and if they want

40:21

to jump in head first. What

40:24

is one that's like not sexual

40:26

that you guys are like this? You know anyone could

40:28

read this well. I

40:30

will say that because I think

40:32

that's one of the reasons that I like the Yuryon

40:35

Nice stuff is because it hasn't range. Um,

40:37

there's a lot of nice slice of life stories in

40:39

there, and there's there's a lot of nice hardcore

40:42

stuff in there too. Um, I would

40:44

say, and again and again, we're getting

40:46

into that conversation of the it's

40:49

teenagers, like how can you how

40:51

can you talk about teenagers sleeping with each

40:53

other? And that goes back to what you were saying Danny

40:56

Twilight. Yeah, although I

40:58

guess he was like three years you know

41:00

what gross,

41:03

But Twilight, like when I think of sorry, I mean

41:05

to cut you off the phone, and I think the dogin that I was

41:07

into it was like adjacent to

41:09

Twilight. It was that heavy

41:12

like Vampire, which they do have Vampire do

41:14

Ginci. It was like that, like will

41:16

they won't they crawling into

41:18

her bedroom and that's like such a teenage

41:21

like we saw that in Scream. We saw that and clear explains

41:23

at all. It's like such a teenage trope, but

41:26

like that's what we think of teenagers, Like how am I going to sneak

41:28

out and get my teenage boyfriend? And like I

41:31

think in that context, it's like it's you

41:34

know, people are prudes, is what I'm

41:36

saying. Totally totally. I

41:39

was just gonna say, there's a lot there's a lot

41:41

of really good my hero Academia do Ginci.

41:43

That is I was gonna say, that's just about

41:45

like the relationship between the characters. Now,

41:47

be warned if if you're freaked out, and

41:50

I respect it that you're like, but

41:52

they're teenagers. I don't want to see any sexy

41:54

stuff with teenagers and I

41:57

get that. I respect that, But again, it's like it is

41:59

largely teenagers hooking

42:01

up with other people their own

42:04

age. So but

42:06

I just be aware, is

42:08

what I'm saying. But there's there's a lot of good not sexy

42:11

stuff there as well. Um, and just some

42:13

really good, good art.

42:16

And I want to say, if you're a parent instead of

42:18

being like my parents who got sex books

42:20

from the library and just left them in

42:22

my bedroom, um, and didn't

42:24

talk to me about them, just like rented

42:26

them and put them out there. And it was, you

42:29

know, two couples like going at it or like

42:31

this is what happens when you grow start growing

42:33

hair here, Um, you can always

42:36

give you know, give give

42:38

these more. Um why a

42:41

focused art

42:43

and comics to your teen

42:46

who is you know, exploring

42:49

or whatever? Um, so they

42:51

feel seen and okay and and

42:54

you know, yeah, yeah, it's

42:56

funny that you mentioned hair because in dog she

42:58

usually everybody is a smooth of the the baby's

43:00

but yeah

43:02

everyone in waxes yeah.

43:06

Um. But uh,

43:08

to answer your question, Danny, Um,

43:10

I think I would say if

43:13

you know anime, if you have an anime that you

43:15

like, and if you know that

43:17

it's popular, you most likely will be able

43:19

to find a very wide range of things. Like M

43:22

said, I think, just go

43:24

to a reputable um

43:27

fan work site like my Reading

43:29

Manga to

43:33

be aware of these webs The ads on these websites

43:35

are more aggressive than most of the content. That's

43:38

very true. I I block those

43:40

out because I'm just so used to it. Um.

43:44

Uh yeah, my reading manga or another

43:46

site like that. Careful, you know, uh,

43:49

don't go to anything that looks to seed

43:52

and don't any links the

43:55

filtering use the filtering functions,

43:58

they're very great. They have filtering functions about what you can

44:00

search up shown an eye or b L

44:03

and not search for smut borne

44:06

Um are there any so this is a

44:08

great question from Joel Monique,

44:11

producer. Are there any characters whose

44:14

work better in Dogenti than in their original

44:16

book? Or? Oh? Crap? I

44:20

think that's such an interesting question, right, because the

44:23

reason why people would make a Dogenti about

44:25

a work is because they really resonate with the characters

44:27

to the point that where they would want to labor

44:30

over drawing them and write

44:32

an entirely new story, because doing

44:35

both drawing and writing the story

44:38

and all of that is

44:40

a lot of work. So yeah,

44:42

I don't know if it's so much that like

44:45

they necessarily

44:48

work better in the fan derivative

44:50

works. However, I will say, you know, bringing

44:52

it back to something like for me in my

44:55

my early Dogenti reading

44:57

days with like a Gundam wing part of the reason

45:00

that show was so successful is because there

45:02

was this really

45:04

dedicated uh female

45:07

fan base around it that we're

45:10

creating all of this shown and I

45:12

and this yahwe content around it,

45:14

um and and again and it it

45:17

wasn't even so much alike, oh this is

45:19

better. But you know, listen,

45:22

the show was animated, so

45:25

at the time you would get a lot more

45:27

like detail in terms of drawing the characters

45:30

faces, uh and such

45:32

in manga. Um.

45:34

And so for for me, like reading some of

45:36

that DOGENTI I'm like, I'm like, dang, Like

45:39

Zex looks pretty good in uh in

45:41

the show, but he looks real good here. Yeah.

45:46

Yeah, I would say that. I don't know if I've

45:48

ever seen a work that I feel like it's better because

45:50

but I think there's a sense of building

45:53

off of something that's a good

45:55

foundation, right, because it's kind of like how not

46:00

re anime is like Ryan Ice, where it's

46:03

the romance is clearly clearly there.

46:06

There are a lot of works where

46:08

an ems that are about subtext

46:10

and purely subtext because you know it was

46:12

made a while ago or something, and you know it

46:15

was not safe for them to create

46:17

something like that. Yeah, yeah,

46:20

um or so so so

46:22

for me, it's more about like, oh

46:24

in these example is um Studio

46:26

triggers pro Mayer, Right, Like, there

46:29

is subtext and something does implied

46:31

to be there, and so it's

46:35

great that there is fan works that exists to kind

46:37

of turn that subtext into non subtext

46:39

and to make it real. Um,

46:43

I know that this. This is pretty cool that many

46:46

Japanese publishing companies actually

46:48

sponsor annual manga competitions

46:51

in which the winner is awarded the publication

46:53

of they're winning, so they're

46:55

been a story, so they'll end up publishing

46:57

it. So are there other stories that you've heard

47:00

of Dogenci artists who end up

47:02

going on to being manga and animators.

47:04

Oh yeah, I mean the most famous example is

47:06

Clamp Clamp who created Cardcaper

47:08

Soccer, um Cho Bitz, Tokyo

47:12

Babylon like all like they have a huge,

47:15

huge body of work. Uh and they were

47:17

a do Ginci circle and to this day they

47:19

still all work together to publish all

47:21

of their work. Um. But I mean they

47:23

they started they started off as a Dogini circle.

47:25

They were writing um Your Royd and Samurai Troopers.

47:27

Doin they were writing Devilman dojinci

47:30

Um. You can still find it. It's amazing.

47:33

And then you know they were so talented

47:35

that they went on to be like some

47:37

of the most successful women

47:40

uh manga car that

47:43

there are, yes, we stand

47:45

love Car Caper Soccer and code gas Um.

47:49

And also it's

47:51

so funny because they've they've

47:53

created such an interesting body of work

47:55

that they literally created Spasa Chronicles

47:58

that literally takes ter from the

48:00

existing original ips and puts them together

48:02

in its own universe. It's very very funny

48:05

and very epic. Well,

48:07

and I imagine this is like a portfolio

48:09

for them, Like it's a portfolio.

48:11

And then it you know, amass to having

48:14

like thousands, sometimes

48:16

millions of like readers. So

48:19

now that the digital now that we

48:21

have things like Patreon and other sites like

48:23

has it because y'all own physical copies

48:26

of Digenti that you can order, but like

48:28

right right that you could, but like, how

48:31

do people now have their own type

48:34

of It's it's really interesting because I I

48:37

have definitely seen that

48:39

happen more and more now with

48:42

people that do have Patreons that

48:44

they will sort of publish full

48:46

comics that are behind the paywall

48:49

of their patreon um, which is

48:52

awesome. Um I

48:56

and and obviously you have things now like web

48:58

tune and there's just there's so many more

49:02

ways that people can distribute

49:06

their original work and

49:09

you know, get compensation for it because

49:11

of the Internet. Yeah,

49:14

I I frequent many a Patreon.

49:17

That's all I'll say about that. UM,

49:20

well, will definitely y'all can shoot me over

49:22

some of your favorites and we can include links

49:24

for everyone. Um this

49:26

has been a great intro to do

49:29

ginshi one oh one, just talking

49:31

about you know, how it got started,

49:33

how we got started into hit um

49:36

emma, where can everyone catch you?

49:38

You can find me all over the internet

49:41

at my name M A five wherever m A five's

49:43

are sold. I got a lot. I

49:45

got a lot of projects

49:47

and things that I'm working on, a lot of stuff that hasn't been

49:49

announced yet, so I'm not gonna

49:52

announce it. So just make sure you're following

49:55

me on Twitter, and then also you can

49:57

find me on my twitch channel twitch dot tv slash m

49:59

A five I Tip Bickley stream

50:01

Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, uh

50:04

starting at noon. Though because of other

50:06

work stuff that I'm working on right now, my schedule has been a

50:08

little wonky. Uh. So

50:10

you know social media, it's the place to be love

50:14

it. What about you, Chris, Um,

50:17

you can find me anywhere at

50:19

One Winged Chris. It's like one winged

50:21

Angel, like Zefroth. Uh.

50:23

And also please catch me and Emma's

50:26

uh podcasting.

50:32

I was trying to decide whether or I should be like, wait, Emma,

50:34

don't we have a podcast just

50:36

super super cheat cheese ad. Right?

50:39

So Emma and Chris have an entire

50:42

podcast that's dedicated

50:44

to jijen chi and talking about it in their

50:46

favorites. In each week they bring on someone.

50:49

I was on for one to talk about vegeta and boma,

50:51

which is my favorite pairing. Um

50:54

if he was also yeah,

50:56

yeah, so and I remember

50:58

it was started. I think from

51:00

a conversation that we were all happy. Yeah,

51:03

yeah it was Danny basically had

51:06

tweeted something saying like, don't

51:08

send me porn. I don't want it unless it's

51:10

m R Gina Balmadog and then please send

51:12

the day. So I

51:15

jumped in and I was like, I would also like it.

51:18

Uh. And it's hard to It's

51:20

not hard to find good ones, but when you find good

51:22

when you find good ones, you're they're great and you want to Yeah,

51:25

for sure. Um,

51:27

I am at miss Danny Fernandez on all the

51:29

things. Remember that I

51:31

will be on sci Fi's The Great

51:33

Debate this month. I'm in two

51:35

episodes. I'm not sure exactly when they drop.

51:38

I think I'm in this week's maybe or next week's

51:40

um, but I'm definitely in the last episode,

51:43

which we shot right the day

51:45

that I think we had to shelter in place, so

51:47

there was no studio audience on that

51:50

last final episode. Very fascinating

51:52

and they also like checked our temperatures at

51:55

the set and like we were all set to go,

51:57

and then it was like are we going to do

51:59

this? Um? So it was

52:01

all of us just making each other laugh. It's a

52:03

really good time and a really good show. So, um,

52:06

I don't know, if you see it, screenshot it for

52:08

me and tag me um,

52:10

and we are going to this week. We'll post some of our

52:13

favorite do gin cheese so you can see what we're talking

52:16

about and hopefully you can get into it too. And

52:18

again supporting independent artists.

52:21

So yeah, like we always

52:23

say, stay nerdy,