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1:25

Condition Supply. Welcome to

1:27

the New Books Network.

1:29

Hello, this is Dr. Karen

1:32

Racita. Thank you for

1:34

joining our show. Today we're

1:36

going to be talking about

1:38

the problems of too

1:41

much green time in

1:43

adulthood. Our podcast is

1:45

called Great Rock, what

1:47

our screens are doing to

1:49

our minds. I'm, as

1:51

I said, Dr. Karen

1:54

Racina, psychologists, psychoanalyst, and

1:56

author, and also a new books

1:59

network host. I'll be discussing

2:01

this topic with Dr. Harry

2:03

Yell, a well-known psychiatrist who

2:05

also has a PhD in

2:07

neuroscience. So Dr. Yell, from

2:10

a neuroscience perspective, why don't

2:12

you tell our audience things

2:14

that happen or go awry

2:16

when adults? Maybe we'll start

2:19

with young adults. And this

2:21

would be... during Eric Erickson's

2:23

identity versus, or actually it's

2:25

intimacy versus isolation, say, so

2:28

it's young adults. What happens

2:30

if they watch or they

2:32

are exposed to too much

2:34

screen time? Well, in this

2:36

period of development, the brain,

2:39

or particularly the frontal lobe,

2:41

is still wiring. I think

2:43

the most recent reliable research

2:45

on the wiring of the

2:48

wiring of the wiring of

2:50

the wiring. brain suggests that

2:52

the prefrontal cortex continues to

2:54

wire until we're 25 years

2:57

of age, meaning that in

2:59

that early development, that part

3:01

of the brain that makes

3:03

all the decisions and assesses

3:06

the reality as we see

3:08

it as we know it,

3:10

is still developing. Also, it's

3:12

a critical area, a critical

3:14

time in anybody's life in

3:17

developing a sense of identity,

3:19

as you mentioned. and the

3:21

questions of who am I,

3:23

who do I want to

3:26

be with, who is going

3:28

to be my partner, I'd

3:30

like to communicate with the

3:32

world in this newfound adult

3:35

state. So the person is

3:37

leaving their family, they're going

3:39

out of the separation individuation

3:41

stage, they're now individual, but

3:44

they have to figure out

3:46

how to connect with the

3:48

rest of the world. And

3:50

under normal or normative... millennia

3:52

of our brain development circumstances,

3:55

we would rely on our

3:57

interactions with our... social group

3:59

in real life to discover

4:01

through the process of mirroring

4:04

neurons, how people respond to

4:06

us, how do we respond

4:08

to them, how do we

4:10

manage aggression in the context

4:13

of the group, how we

4:15

manage intimacy in the context

4:17

of the group, and the

4:19

bonding would slowly but surely

4:22

occur. As baseline... human beings

4:24

tend to be socially anxious

4:26

and in silence they tend

4:28

to be paranoid. We're always

4:31

leaning towards social isolation. So

4:33

we're much more prone to

4:35

lean into isolation versus intimacy

4:37

in the balance of those

4:39

two forces. And from that

4:42

respect of screens, as I

4:44

see it in my clinical

4:46

practice day to day... are

4:48

increasingly offering a refuge and

4:51

they're supporting the defensive stance

4:53

of people and escape into

4:55

a screen into quasi intimacy

4:57

leads people into a very

5:00

comfortable place in which on

5:02

one hand they believe they

5:04

have attained intimacy but in

5:06

fact they have attained isolation.

5:09

So when the screen eventually

5:11

goes off at the end

5:13

of the night the mood

5:15

sinks the dark thoughts come.

5:17

and then the screens may

5:20

come on and engagement with

5:22

quasi intimacy continues until the

5:24

person is completely exhausted and

5:26

therefore the next day they

5:29

come go to classes they

5:31

can't be meet whether they're

5:33

friends so many many more

5:35

I would say youngsters that

5:38

are imparting on the college

5:40

experience are beginning to implode

5:42

because they can't really manage

5:44

actual intimacy. probably pernicious. I'm

5:47

going to be judgmental for

5:49

a moment. Influence on the

5:51

development of young mind is

5:53

the emergence of dating apps,

5:55

where in the past people

5:58

had to go. a social

6:00

gathering place, engaging conversations, learn

6:02

how to approach somebody, learn

6:04

how to deal with rejection,

6:07

learn how to deal with

6:09

being left or abandoned in

6:11

the moment in real time.

6:13

With apps, while it's all

6:16

very, very convenient, it is

6:18

also prone to being very

6:20

unreal. So that the person

6:22

creates, and you will tell

6:25

us more about this, will

6:27

create... fantasy of who the

6:29

other person is through the

6:31

process of projective identification and

6:34

vice versa. We can project

6:36

who we think we are

6:38

very intensely so that endless

6:40

hours can be spent chatting

6:42

with the person that you

6:45

may never meet or if

6:47

you meet, it's a person

6:49

that is completely really not

6:51

the person you expected to

6:54

see, which leads us back

6:56

into isolation. And from the

6:58

neuroscience perspective, all of these

7:00

functions of aggression, tolerating aggression,

7:03

being able to initiate aggression,

7:05

expressing sexual desire, engaging in

7:07

sexual contact, dealing with sexual

7:09

rejection. Those are all functions

7:12

that really have to be

7:14

developed in much the same

7:16

way as writing skill, language

7:18

skill, reading skill. It's simply

7:20

from brain materialistic position, it's

7:23

a function of the brain

7:25

that needs exercise. and with

7:27

the screen interfering there isn't

7:29

enough exercise. Yes, as much

7:32

as I like Eric's eight

7:34

stages of development, I think

7:36

that it's really important to

7:38

keep in mind that intimacy

7:41

is a stage of fundamentally

7:43

young adulthood, but it's also

7:45

so interesting identity to me

7:47

blend together because they're important

7:50

in adolescents. and they're also

7:52

important in young adulthood and

7:54

middle with middle-aged people and

7:56

with older people. Sometimes people

7:58

don't form an identity until

8:01

later on if they kind

8:03

of get hooked into the

8:05

right thing for them, whether

8:07

it could be yoga, often

8:10

it's therapy, could be meditation,

8:12

but they can kind of

8:14

find out who they are

8:16

later. Typically, it's the task

8:19

of adolescents to find out

8:21

who one is. But I

8:23

think social media has changed

8:25

things. So what you're saying

8:28

about projective identification, which means

8:30

you project something either about

8:32

yourself that you don't like

8:34

or or you can also

8:36

project. as if you're projecting

8:39

on a big screen, an

8:41

idea of someone else. So

8:43

you create this image of

8:45

who you think someone is

8:48

and it may have nothing

8:50

to do with reality at

8:52

all. And social media really

8:54

allows a person, invites a

8:57

person to do that. So

8:59

you have... whoever, wherever you're

9:01

meeting this person, could just

9:03

be an Instagram. You don't

9:06

have to, it doesn't have

9:08

to be an dating app

9:10

where you might actually end

9:12

up having a conversation, maybe

9:15

if you're lucky, but it's

9:17

just the image that you

9:19

create of this person having

9:21

not a lot to do

9:23

with reality. It's also something

9:26

I said last time when

9:28

you have like 500 or

9:30

1,000 or 10,000 friends, but

9:32

you actually may be quite

9:35

isolated and you might have

9:37

very few friends, maybe no

9:39

friends at all, but you

9:41

create this idea that you

9:44

have all these friends, but

9:46

it's just a fantasy. So

9:48

that's the projection is a

9:50

very important thing to keep

9:53

in mind. A lot of

9:55

things can go awry with

9:57

too much screen time. I

9:59

guess people think they have

10:01

a lot of friends if

10:04

they're gaming or if they're

10:06

doing any kind of video

10:08

game with other people. They

10:10

think those people are friends.

10:13

If they're friends from school

10:15

or college or work and

10:17

they happen to be playing

10:19

a game with them on

10:22

some kind of device, that's

10:24

one thing. But just meeting

10:26

people and exchanging whatever kind

10:28

of information on a screen

10:31

that's not that's not really

10:33

connecting with people. So... In

10:35

fact, I'm about what you're

10:37

saying, the interference of screen

10:39

and intimacy is very profound.

10:42

In clinical examples, I work

10:44

with a lot of young

10:46

couples that I just started

10:48

having a relationship. And the

10:51

struggle for them is to

10:53

engage in something as simple

10:55

as sharing a screen experience

10:57

because one is playing a

11:00

computer game and one computer

11:02

the other one is reading.

11:04

news of their screen or

11:06

playing another computer game and

11:09

they simply don't know how

11:11

to collaborate on planning a

11:13

dinner or planning what their

11:15

living arrangements are going to

11:18

be intimacy beyond establishing a

11:20

couple, the intimacy within a

11:22

couple, intimacy within a friendship,

11:24

the phenomena that everybody talks

11:26

about to see several young

11:29

adults having dinner together and

11:31

each one of them is

11:33

staring at a screen but

11:35

not actually sharing mutual experiences

11:38

has a real impact on

11:40

brain development, development, and our

11:42

ability to communicate, share opinions,

11:44

and in consequences both personal

11:47

from the brain development perspective

11:49

and societal as we're experiencing,

11:51

that these past several years

11:53

are very, very traumatic when

11:56

people don't communicate, don't share

11:58

opinions, live with their own.

12:00

particular box on the screen,

12:02

they're really isolated. Everybody

12:04

has an opinion that can be

12:07

heard, everybody has an opinion that

12:09

can be discussed, and in sharing

12:11

opinions or thoughts in an intimate

12:14

way, we're beginning to give

12:16

some richness to the

12:18

reality versus the two-dimensional

12:20

reality that most people

12:22

experience through the screen next

12:24

screen time. I have a patient who

12:26

is very interested in the idea

12:29

of... creating, it's sort of

12:31

a group house idea, but it's

12:33

with intent, not just because you

12:35

might not have money, so you

12:38

know, you hang out in a

12:40

house with people, but it's creating

12:42

community space together. And one of

12:44

the things he talks about is

12:46

having rules so that you spend

12:48

X amount of time, maybe it's

12:50

a dinner, right? a couple of

12:53

times a week, but with no

12:55

screens. It's not just the deal

12:57

of everybody sitting there with their

12:59

screen having dinner, maybe

13:02

participating in conversation,

13:04

but watching their screen. So

13:06

whether it's a family who sets

13:08

limits with parents saying, okay, no

13:10

screens at X number of time,

13:12

during these times we're having no

13:15

screens or whether it's in a

13:17

community or If people in, it

13:19

could be people in nursing homes,

13:21

if somebody can set some sort

13:24

of limit of, we're going to

13:26

do these activities and whatever else

13:28

you do, with adults, it's kind

13:30

of hard to say that, but it's

13:33

hard to tell the points you're going

13:35

to do. But if you get

13:37

like-minded people. And to

13:39

convince them that it's

13:41

really detrimental, it's much better.

13:44

And people would rather participate

13:46

in activities, I think.

13:48

Now, often people get

13:50

into being solo screen

13:52

viewers because they don't

13:54

have anybody around. So

13:56

that's where isolation comes

13:58

in. Obviously. that could be

14:01

at any age. And to

14:03

add to that concept of

14:05

isolation in communication or experience

14:07

of the world, the other

14:09

is really required. The other

14:11

brain, looking at an object,

14:13

creates a three-dimensional view of

14:15

an object, and in this

14:17

case an idea, just like

14:19

two eyes are necessary to

14:21

create a sense of depth.

14:23

and perspective. So between our

14:25

two eyes on the screen,

14:27

reality is very flat. And

14:29

having somebody else take a

14:31

look at the election, what's

14:33

currently going on with firing

14:35

people, the whatever, the state

14:37

of economy, the world, which

14:39

house should I buy? Human

14:41

beings for millennia have reached

14:43

new ideas, new developments and

14:45

technology and intellectual achievement by

14:47

sharing their ideas with ideas

14:49

with others. and enhancing and

14:51

fine-tuning them, and the exchange

14:53

of ideas in which everybody

14:55

agrees with everybody else within

14:57

the echo chamber is not

14:59

the space where the brain

15:01

will develop. It will remain

15:03

stagnant, and it will remain

15:05

ultimately isolated. I was really

15:07

thrilled when I was talking

15:09

to a patient today because

15:11

I had been reviewing Erickson's

15:13

stages of development to prepare

15:15

for this conversation that we're

15:17

having. And I've read several

15:20

studies that indicated that people

15:22

who spend more than six

15:24

hours a day on screens

15:26

are often quite depressed or

15:28

quite anxious. And about that

15:30

time, I had a little

15:32

bit of a break today.

15:34

About that time, I started

15:36

talking to this man who...

15:38

He has a community, but

15:40

he also was on, and

15:42

I really had no idea

15:44

about this until today. He

15:46

said he was talking about

15:48

cutting out various social media.

15:50

platforms and he's doing it

15:52

because he doesn't like what's

15:54

going on politically. It's a

15:56

whole other idea of whether

15:58

somebody should tour all of

16:00

that out or not. That's

16:02

another conversation for another podcast,

16:04

but his are pros and

16:06

cons to that. But he's

16:08

decided for his own well-being.

16:10

He also has a severe

16:12

therapist that he was going

16:14

to go off, I'll say

16:16

Instagram to start with, and

16:18

then he decided he was

16:20

going to... stop something else

16:22

and this has been incrementally

16:24

occurring and today he said

16:26

well he got off his

16:28

last last day read it

16:30

and then he said you

16:32

know I figured out I

16:34

was spending five to six

16:36

hours a day he said

16:38

do you know doctor receded

16:40

I now have 30 hours

16:42

a week I and he's

16:44

he I mean he has

16:46

other degrees but he he

16:48

had a degree in music

16:50

and he used to he

16:52

used to play I believe

16:55

the mandolin guitar and he

16:57

also was an artist back

16:59

of the day he said

17:01

my god it was like

17:03

an awakening for him when

17:05

he realized that he had

17:07

30 hours a week I

17:09

mean that's a lot of

17:11

time so even if he

17:13

used a third of that

17:15

I mean in half a

17:17

third It's a lot of

17:19

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18:17

I'm as a variable when

18:19

I work with adults, kids,

18:21

whoever. I talk about the

18:23

finite amount of time that

18:25

we all have and that

18:27

it starts with big picture,

18:30

the finite amount of time

18:32

in a lifetime, and shrunk

18:34

down to finite amount of

18:36

time in a week and

18:38

then amount of time in

18:40

a day. And then we

18:42

talk about how much time

18:44

did you spend on the

18:46

screen? Usual conversation is around...

18:48

self-fledged because they are procrastinating,

18:50

they didn't study for the

18:52

exam, or they didn't cook,

18:54

so they spend too much

18:56

money on door dash, and

18:58

then introduction of the concept

19:00

of time is incredibly, it's

19:02

a revelation for people, and

19:04

the language I use, which

19:06

may be a little graphic,

19:08

is to say it's like

19:10

taking your time behind the

19:12

shed and shooting it in

19:14

the head. That's what you're

19:16

doing when you're spending three

19:18

or four or five hours

19:20

playing computer games. Those are

19:22

also, from the developmental perspectives,

19:24

three, four, five hours that

19:26

a person is not spending

19:28

thinking about who they are,

19:30

who they love, who they

19:32

hate, what do they want

19:34

to be when they grow

19:36

up, what's the strategic plan

19:38

to get there, because all

19:40

of those ideas require time.

19:42

And so the screen and,

19:44

as you say, the purpose

19:46

of the screen is to

19:48

take our attention, it's a

19:50

battle. We need the screen,

19:52

the screen needs us, and

19:54

how do we strike a

19:56

balance between... our need for

19:58

everything that has been put

20:00

on the screen and cannot

20:03

be obtained any longer versus

20:05

the screen occupying our brain

20:07

most of the day. I

20:09

have another couple who has

20:11

worked on this idea of

20:13

not be in front of

20:15

screens during the evening hours.

20:17

At a certain point, I

20:19

don't know what it is

20:21

exactly, but it's the cutoff

20:23

time. as they're preparing to

20:25

go to bed, but I

20:27

don't mean that they're going

20:29

to sleep yet. They have

20:31

a routine out that they

20:33

spend time doing something together,

20:35

but maybe reading books. So

20:37

they're in bed and they

20:39

spend time doing something non-screen

20:41

related. And then they like

20:43

their cuddle time. and then

20:45

they go to sleep, but

20:47

with no blue light in

20:49

front of them at all.

20:51

That's in the living room.

20:53

That's not in the bedroom.

20:55

And I know you know

20:57

a lot about blue lights

20:59

and what happens to the

21:01

brain when you just have

21:03

it on until 11 o'clock

21:05

or you watch the 11

21:07

o'clock news and shut it

21:09

off and try to go

21:11

to sleep. I mean, obviously,

21:13

I don't think melatonin is

21:15

really produced. I think people

21:17

have a lot of trouble,

21:19

so they can... pop ill.

21:21

The idea of if you're

21:23

falling asleep right after you

21:25

have both been exposed to

21:27

blue light and you have

21:29

engaged in intellectual activity, the

21:31

balancing after between acetylcholine as

21:33

a neurotransmitter that keeps us

21:35

away can basically lights up

21:38

the brain and shutting that

21:40

down an introduction of millitonin

21:42

to put us to sleep,

21:44

it is not a light

21:46

switch and acetylcholine does not...

21:48

go off. There's time for

21:50

brain to metabolize the near

21:52

the transmitter, meaning to take

21:54

this molecule apart, and then

21:56

we can slowly fold below

21:58

the threshold where melatonin is

22:00

adequate to put us to

22:02

sleep. So yes, then we

22:04

start popping pills because we

22:06

need the switch versus as

22:08

this couple is doing, it

22:10

is absolutely not unreasonable to

22:12

completely turn off the phone

22:14

as a screen before you

22:16

start making dinner. There is,

22:18

as I like to tell

22:20

people, unless you're a neurosurgeon

22:22

on call at the Children's

22:24

Hospital, It can all wait.

22:26

There's literally no reason to

22:28

rush to the screen. And

22:30

shared experience of watching a

22:32

movie together, watching news together,

22:34

doing family stuff together, it

22:36

promotes the intimacy because it's

22:38

that shared experience of we're

22:40

all watching the same material

22:42

and we have our own

22:44

reactions to it and we

22:46

can talk about it. And

22:48

again, two brains looking at

22:50

the same reality creating new

22:52

meaning versus two brains in

22:54

peril mode. staring at different

22:56

screens living in their own

22:58

in their own reality. That's

23:00

isolation, even if you're married.

23:02

And you can have two

23:04

kids and two parents and

23:06

they're all isolated. There's no

23:08

intimacy if four people are

23:10

experiencing world four different ways

23:13

at the same time. Yeah.

23:15

So let's talk about mitigation

23:17

of these problems. Now we've

23:19

talked about what parents could

23:21

do to set limits. for

23:23

their children, but what can

23:25

adults do to stop this

23:27

behavior? Because it is like

23:29

an addiction. I think it

23:31

is considered an addiction, right?

23:33

Absolutely. Absolutely. And the anxiety

23:35

that is generated successfully by

23:37

the producers of content make

23:39

us want to check it

23:41

more. the anxiety of, you

23:43

know, what is President Trump

23:45

doing this minute? So what's

23:47

the democratic response the next

23:49

minute? Some clients check their

23:51

news outlets every five, ten

23:53

minutes to see what's happening.

23:55

When in fact, if you

23:57

really... the new cycle, we

23:59

all know it's three or

24:01

four news items done on

24:03

repeat through most of the

24:05

day. So what we can

24:07

do is use the tools

24:09

that increasingly do exist on

24:11

the screens, which is to

24:13

automatically have the phone going

24:15

to do not disturb mode

24:17

at some point in time

24:19

in the day. You know,

24:21

8 p.m. is sort of

24:23

my rule of thumb. After

24:25

that... I don't need to

24:27

know anything beyond that point.

24:29

Really, really focus on notifications.

24:31

Turning off notifications for social

24:33

media in particular. There is

24:35

nothing that cannot wait for

24:37

a sliver of time that

24:39

you want to spend. It's

24:41

funny you mentioned Instagram. I

24:43

had Instagram account for five

24:45

minutes because... All the advertising

24:48

for events now happens through

24:50

Instagram. So Metropolitan Museum in

24:52

New York or Noigh Gallery

24:54

in New York or you

24:56

have no idea what goes

24:58

on there unless you have

25:00

an Instagram account. But then

25:02

you're victim of pings and

25:04

pongs and one of the

25:06

fun stories I like to

25:08

tell my clients about how

25:10

good the advertising is. One

25:12

day when I opened an

25:14

Instagram account, I ended up

25:16

buying three pairs of pants

25:18

that I absolutely didn't need,

25:20

but they looked so interesting

25:22

and so compelling that $300

25:24

later I had three pairs.

25:26

One of them was actually

25:28

okay to have to go

25:30

back. But the compelling nature

25:32

of people that are experts

25:34

in engagement, and maintaining our

25:36

attention, is the force that

25:38

they have. The force that

25:40

we need to develop is

25:42

the force to say no.

25:44

And from the addiction perspective,

25:46

it is pleasurable, whether people

25:48

are addicted to pornography, increasingly

25:50

addicted to gambling online, all

25:52

the kinds of things that

25:54

are exciting and pleasurable in

25:56

real life have found their

25:58

way onto the. screen and

26:00

the release of dopamine insists

26:03

on continuing that behavior and

26:05

it can be utterly devastating.

26:07

As you know, I know

26:09

from clinical material, it devastates

26:11

people's lives. So much like

26:13

addiction to heroin, it's, you know,

26:15

put the needle ID screen away and

26:17

for alcoholics, don't have it around right

26:20

next to your hand. When you go

26:22

to sleep, put the phone in another

26:24

room or at least across the room,

26:26

that doesn't have to be in the

26:29

nightstand. The standard advice I give to

26:31

people is when they say, but I

26:33

use my phone for alarm, go to

26:35

targets, get by a really cheap

26:37

alarm clock, put it on your

26:40

nightstand. It is not complicated. I

26:42

listen to music when I go

26:44

to sleep, get a CD player,

26:46

turn on the radio. There are

26:48

solutions that combat what has been

26:50

a concerted effort by the industry

26:53

to bind us to the screen

26:55

for everything. And the examples are

26:57

alarm clock. Now we use the

27:00

phones. Music, we use the phones.

27:02

Reservation for restaurant, we use the

27:04

phone. Buying shoe shine, we use

27:07

the phone. Buying toothpaste, we use

27:09

the phone. It's becoming increasingly impossible

27:12

to do things because we have

27:14

to use the phone. My favorite

27:16

example was a feeble attempt to

27:19

give up Amazon and for a

27:21

week I was successful internationally needed

27:24

shoe shine paste. And driving around

27:26

Philadelphia... couldn't find it

27:28

at all. And so I give up,

27:30

went back on Amazon, it

27:33

was on my doorstep next

27:35

day and such is life.

27:37

We have boxes and boxes

27:40

of Amazon coming every

27:42

day. Well, yes, and that's

27:44

sort of the way it is

27:47

today, but in terms of

27:49

watching screens, I think we

27:51

can do something about

27:53

that. Children in a

27:55

way, though they may try to

27:57

slip and slide away from the

27:59

rules. of parents and sneak

28:01

phones and they do that,

28:03

at least there's somebody to

28:05

set the rules. With adults,

28:07

we have to set these

28:09

rules ourselves, ourselves. So what

28:11

kind of things can people

28:13

do? They're always the standard

28:15

things. Eat well, exercise. You

28:17

can exercise instead of being

28:20

on screens. It's wonderful advice

28:22

if people follow it. But

28:24

what other things can people

28:26

do instead of watching screens?

28:28

Whether they have an Amazon

28:30

counterwatch. Ask yourself, what am

28:32

I getting out of this

28:34

versus what am I giving

28:36

yet? And the valuation of

28:38

time then becomes a really

28:40

important counterbalance to this is

28:42

pleasurable and fun. depending on

28:44

the age, the kind of

28:46

engagement varies is what people

28:48

focus on. The biggest problem

28:50

is the shared experience and

28:52

the sense that if you're

28:54

not participating in Instagram, I'll

28:57

use that as an example,

28:59

you're sort of left out

29:01

because everybody else is on

29:03

Instagram as well. So because

29:05

we're finally social beings, we

29:07

see that as the version

29:09

of intimacy. And we go

29:11

right back to the beginning

29:13

of our conversation. This is

29:15

a quasi-intimacy. It is not

29:17

really a shared experience because

29:19

we also, whatever, celebrity couple

29:21

is doing whatever. One of

29:23

the examples of Dr. Gil

29:25

living under Iraq was when

29:27

I asked, who is Kinkoradashin?

29:29

And what does she do?

29:32

And I finally found out

29:34

she does nothing. She's just

29:36

a celebrity in personality. And

29:38

it was a fascinating response.

29:40

popular, somebody that effectively does

29:42

nothing, really is in this

29:44

world. But it's again, that

29:46

sort of ability of community

29:48

to create reality and a

29:50

belief that this person is

29:52

that we should care about

29:54

can fall out in great

29:56

detail. So really, the process

29:58

of how do we interact

30:00

with screens is the person

30:02

of asking yourself, do I

30:04

really need to spend this

30:06

time on this screen right

30:09

now? What am I getting

30:11

out of it? And do

30:13

I need this? Or would

30:15

I be better off planning

30:17

my dinner and chopping vegetables?

30:19

So it's a very mechanical

30:21

process and the meta awareness

30:23

of time is important. Big

30:25

believer, I've probably said in

30:27

every podcast, in analog box,

30:29

have them every, with big

30:31

old arms, telling you what

30:33

time is, and look at

30:35

it every so often, and

30:37

you'll see how much time

30:39

you spent on a screen.

30:41

Yeah. I think the other

30:44

thing is crucially important. We

30:46

all need people. whether it's

30:48

a partner with whom we

30:50

can connect with or whether

30:52

it's any portion of a

30:54

community. So I think in-person

30:56

connection, it could be on

30:58

the phone if you have

31:00

conversations with friends, but people

31:02

versus things and objects, talking

31:04

to a person, as we're

31:06

talking now, it is through

31:08

a screen, but I'm not

31:10

in Philadelphia, and you're not

31:12

in Maryland or G. But

31:14

you can, so you can

31:16

have intimate exchanges with people.

31:18

on screen. It's people you

31:21

already know, not strangers. But

31:23

I would say community versus

31:25

in a community with one,

31:27

like the couple who has

31:29

community time, maybe they're reading

31:31

a book, sometimes they read

31:33

them together. But being together,

31:35

talking, that's something, that's a

31:37

novel thing, talking with a

31:39

friend. Very important point, you

31:41

know, and I was paying

31:43

attention to the... energized debate

31:45

about the CEO of Chase

31:47

Manhattan Bank consisting that people

31:49

come back to office and

31:51

he was actually speaking very

31:53

directly to this age-sex that

31:55

we're discussing today and the

31:58

failure of developing really important

32:00

career affecting communication skills and

32:02

ability to through interaction discover

32:04

what somebody's skill set is

32:06

begin to evolve your career.

32:08

Again, to me, very important

32:10

skill is how to tolerate

32:12

aggression, how to deal with

32:14

creative dialogue. And you really,

32:16

I happen to agree with

32:18

him. You can't get that

32:20

in a Zoom meeting. It's

32:22

just not possible. So beyond

32:24

all of the productivity, discussion,

32:26

I have thoughts about it,

32:28

but that's neither here or

32:30

there, or the discussions of

32:33

it's a pain in the

32:35

nose to drive and expense

32:37

and blah blah. That call

32:39

stands firm. I agree with

32:41

all of the objections, but

32:43

the dramatic loss of ability

32:45

to grow and develop your

32:47

brain is a good argument

32:49

to ask everybody to go

32:51

back to the office. In

32:53

fact, I know young people

32:55

personally that have without therapy,

32:57

without any intervention from outside,

32:59

recognized it themselves, friends, children,

33:01

and I had these conversations

33:03

with that, they on their

33:05

own decided that they need

33:07

to go to the office.

33:10

Young professionals that I see,

33:12

I chased them into the

33:14

office as much as I

33:16

possibly can. Invariably, all of

33:18

them will say it was

33:20

a good idea. Eventually, once

33:22

we get to all of

33:24

the obstacles and time. One

33:26

of the objections that young

33:28

professionals will raise, well, it

33:30

takes me an hour to

33:32

get to work. And neuroscience

33:34

response to that, that is

33:36

an hour that is time

33:38

open to you to meditate

33:40

about your life, your choices,

33:42

your workplace, your love, your

33:45

future. It's an hour of

33:47

time. If you fill it

33:49

with a screen, if you're

33:51

sitting at home, you're not

33:53

going to do any of

33:55

those things. And we're back

33:57

to time as precious. and

33:59

each developmental step requires that

34:01

time and concerted effort. Screen

34:03

is a necessary enemy of

34:05

all of the above. Yes,

34:07

I agree with most of

34:09

what you said. I've just

34:11

had a little informal survey

34:13

I've done with myself. since

34:15

COVID. And I think that

34:17

extroverts are usually dying to

34:19

get back to the honest.

34:22

They can't wait. They can't,

34:24

they can't, they couldn't stand

34:26

it during COVID being old

34:28

and they can't stand it

34:30

now. People who are more

34:32

introverted are okay with some

34:34

work at home. And if

34:36

it's some, I think that's

34:38

okay. So they're not just

34:40

staying on screens all the

34:42

time, just so they have

34:44

some social time, just so

34:46

they go sometimes and meet

34:48

with their colleagues. I mean...

34:50

And there is, really speaking

34:52

to the development of the

34:54

brain issue, there is a

34:57

delta between people like you

34:59

and me that have experienced

35:01

all of that social interacting

35:03

and in person interacting and

35:05

have the skills. in place

35:07

because we have developed them.

35:09

So the choice becomes sort

35:11

of that a mechanical, convenience,

35:13

whatever choice. But what I

35:15

was reacting to was the

35:17

development of the brain that

35:19

because of COVID was isolated

35:21

and then just continued to

35:23

never be exposed to the

35:25

tension of the workplace where,

35:27

let's say 50% of people

35:29

are Republicans and 50% of

35:31

people are Democrats. Well, let's

35:34

have a vigorous conversation in

35:36

person. versus what I'm not

35:38

talking. So that, that and

35:40

truly from the development perspective,

35:42

I think that generation, this

35:44

generation is missing a lot

35:46

of that in-person skills training.

35:48

McDonald's meets the Minecraft universe

35:50

with one of six collectibles

35:52

and your choice of a

35:54

Big Mac or ten-piece McNuggets

35:56

with spicy net-flamed sauce now

35:58

available with a... Minecraft movie

36:00

meal. I participate in McDonald's

36:02

for a limited time on

36:04

Minecraft movie only in theaters.

36:06

This episode is brought to

36:08

you by Amazon. Sometimes the

36:11

most painful part of getting

36:13

sick is the getting better

36:15

part. Waiting on hold for

36:17

an appointment, sitting in crowded

36:19

waiting rooms, standing in line

36:21

with the pharmacy. That's painful.

36:23

Amazon One Medical and Amazon

36:25

Pharmacy remove those painful parts

36:27

of getting better with things

36:29

like 24-7 virtual visits and

36:31

prescriptions delivered your door. Health

36:33

Care just got less painful.

36:35

Yeah, speaking of Republicans and

36:37

Democrats speaking together, there is

36:39

a group. We've probably talked

36:41

about it. I've been to

36:43

a couple of their events.

36:45

Very were angels. It was

36:47

started by a family therapist,

36:49

Bill Doherty. I think there

36:51

was a co-founder, too. But

36:53

they actually bring people together

36:56

from blue states and red

36:58

states. I think now it's

37:00

in person again. It was

37:02

in person and people were

37:04

forced to do it during

37:06

COVID via Zoom, but I

37:08

think they're back together again.

37:10

But they actually have civil

37:12

conversations between Democrats and Republicans

37:14

and. The idea is not

37:16

to be disrespectful in any

37:18

way, but just to talk

37:20

about ideas. And it's been

37:22

amazing in the ones that

37:24

I participated in, how close

37:26

people actually are. I'm not

37:28

talking about the far people

37:30

on the far, far left

37:32

or the far, far right,

37:34

but people who are, well,

37:36

red state, blue state, but

37:38

in the middle range. People

37:41

are not that far off

37:43

on too many things. And

37:45

it's so much, back to

37:47

the development, it is so

37:49

much more difficult to be

37:51

enraged with a real human

37:53

being that's right in front

37:55

of you and you're looking

37:57

them in the eye, then

37:59

shooting an enraged tick-tock response

38:01

or Twitter response to somebody.

38:03

that is not looking at

38:05

you. Or there's a real

38:07

person and you can't block

38:09

them. They're just there. You

38:11

can't cancel them from your

38:13

life. You have to negotiate

38:15

a conversation. And in early

38:17

20s are the time when

38:19

you learn how to have

38:21

those conversations. So some of

38:23

the interesting developmental outcomes is

38:26

the growth of 30-year-olds that

38:28

have... grossly delayed development and

38:30

30-year-olds that don't have relationships

38:32

they live in. Why is

38:34

that communes? Because they are

38:36

not ready to be an

38:38

intimate couple. And usually they

38:40

have a pet or two

38:42

because it's an object of

38:44

law and a replacement for

38:46

intimacy. So there are societal

38:48

impacts that are emerging from

38:50

failure to negotiate this developmental

38:52

step. intimacy versus loneliness. Yeah,

38:54

so if we have a,

38:56

but we do have a

38:58

chance, I'm going to create

39:00

it a chance or a

39:02

wrap up here. Why don't

39:04

we each think of something?

39:06

I have something in mind.

39:08

I don't want it to

39:11

slip my mind. So, well,

39:13

I'll start and then. You

39:15

go first, yes. wrap things

39:17

up. I think at any

39:19

age and what we're talking

39:21

about adult is... specifically, that

39:23

community is so important and

39:25

community can be with one

39:27

person. But this is in

39:29

lieu of screens, putting screens

39:31

aside, connecting with people or

39:33

a person is vitally important.

39:35

The other thing that's important

39:37

is doing thing one loves

39:39

to do. If it's painting

39:41

and you always wanted to

39:43

do and have never done

39:45

it before, You can learn

39:47

to paint. Now you might

39:49

need a screen if you're

39:51

looking for a lesson and

39:53

you're not going to a

39:56

literal lesson. But it's great

39:58

to go to some of

40:00

those bait and sip. I

40:02

don't know if you've ever

40:04

done that, but a lot

40:06

of people are there. There's

40:08

a teacher. I like to

40:10

chew it with friends and

40:12

family members and just have

40:14

water, have wine, have anything,

40:17

and paint with people. It's

40:19

so interesting what people

40:21

come up with. So

40:23

that's a community activity

40:25

and you're learning a

40:27

little something along the

40:29

way. could be playing

40:31

a musical instrument. Something

40:33

for the self without

40:35

screens and then something

40:37

with people. I think that's

40:39

a good combo. Yeah. Creating

40:41

habits and strengthening the pathways

40:44

that allow us to engage

40:46

life at its fullest really

40:49

begin in this stage

40:51

of development. So ability to

40:53

feel competent enough to

40:56

go to a local bar. strike

40:58

up a conversation and just see

41:00

what happens. As you said, something

41:02

creative, something new, something you didn't

41:05

expect, something you didn't plan for

41:07

can happen. And it both develops your

41:09

brain, but it also develops a

41:12

sense of capacity, a sense of

41:14

resilience, that there's an obstacle that

41:16

gets overcome, the predictable pathway of,

41:19

I'm interested in a particular thing,

41:21

and you find it on the

41:23

screen, and you spend three hours

41:26

doing it. does not grow any

41:28

particular function. So the functionality of

41:30

really experiencing the richness

41:33

of life, including

41:35

smells and tastes and touch

41:37

and communication and the beauty

41:39

of it all, is really

41:41

missed if we're interacting with

41:43

a piece of glass and

41:46

mal. Well, I said that you would

41:48

finish it up. Maybe we can combine something

41:50

here because you said the word habit and

41:52

it made me think of how often people

41:54

say to me, but I want to exercise,

41:57

but how do I form that habit of

41:59

doing it? I started to do

42:01

it, especially at the beginning of

42:03

the year. I make all these

42:05

resolutions, and then I notice I

42:07

just drop off. I don't go

42:10

to the gym anymore. From personal

42:12

experience, I know you have to

42:14

do it. You have to make

42:16

yourself at the beginning. And then

42:18

it becomes something you just do,

42:20

like brushing your teeth. So I

42:22

have this little weight area and

42:25

I bought this equipment during COVID.

42:27

And when I walk by now,

42:29

I don't even... so it has

42:31

to do with lifting weights. When

42:33

I walk by the area, I

42:35

think, oh, got to go in

42:37

and lift my weights. And it's

42:40

not painful. It's not difficult anymore

42:42

because it's just what I do

42:44

when I'm walking to this office.

42:46

It was painful. I didn't want

42:48

to do it. I used to

42:50

argue with myself saying, you do

42:52

it later. You did it yesterday.

42:55

You're also supposed to rest. But

42:57

I walk by that area now

42:59

and it's not difficult. There are

43:01

so many days or weeks supposedly

43:03

that it takes to form a

43:05

habit. You just need to back

43:07

yourself don't. And I think that's

43:10

a great topic. If I may,

43:12

with my reaction to it, like

43:14

we do exist in a dialectic

43:16

of pleasurable and displeasure. There are

43:18

a lot of things that are

43:20

good for us. Or displeasureable. You

43:23

have much like eating McDonald's all

43:25

the time, maybe pleasurable to some

43:27

people. Eventually it'll kill you. If

43:29

you don't eat a vegetable. The

43:31

same thing with exercise. It is

43:33

Arguably, displeasureable, I don't understand people

43:35

that wake up at 5am and

43:38

go for a run. That's a

43:40

great thing for that, not for

43:42

me, thank you. But it's displeasureable

43:44

and necessary. And the replacement for

43:46

it, the screen or the TV

43:48

or something is pleasurable, and it's

43:50

a waste of time. And the

43:53

sooner we learn that or learn

43:55

how to manage, like this is

43:57

what I need to do, It's

43:59

sort of interesting to talk to

44:01

young adults in therapy and the

44:03

frequent theme with young adults is

44:05

I don't feel motivated. And then

44:08

I should do a little... neuroscience

44:10

lecture which is where as human

44:12

beings were highly motivated to eat

44:14

sleep and have sex highly motivate

44:16

everything else is sort of pain

44:18

in the nouns so I that

44:20

jokingly I tell them I don't

44:23

believe in the word motivation in

44:25

this particular context this is something

44:27

you just do as you said

44:29

you walk by and you left

44:31

your way it's isn't don't have

44:33

to be motivated to do it

44:36

and and similarly the notion of

44:38

the word deserve is very complicated.

44:40

And the young adults in particular

44:42

has been acculturated, I believe, through

44:44

the screen, the notion of what

44:46

they deserve as part of that

44:48

stage of development versus these are

44:51

the things that I need to

44:53

do in order to hopefully obtain

44:55

what I would like or what

44:57

I think I need. So it's

44:59

all, it's interesting to play with

45:01

words with young adults. and take

45:03

them apart. So I'll stop there.

45:06

Well, one more thing. Brain rot.

45:08

Let's make it clear what we're

45:10

talking about, because we know what

45:12

we're talking about, but it's... Not

45:14

a commonly used word yet, although

45:16

it's gaining popularity or wouldn't have

45:18

won that 2024 Oxford Award for

45:21

the word at the year. But

45:23

we're really talking about atrophy of

45:25

the brain for one day and

45:27

atrophy of one's social existence if

45:29

a person is just tuned into

45:31

screens all the time. There was

45:33

an interesting study and I count

45:36

quoted off the top of my

45:38

head that in later adulthood and

45:40

we'll get there watching daytime TV

45:42

will watch your brain quite literally

45:44

because functions will atrophy if you

45:46

spend hours watching daytime television. This

45:48

is before the phones. So we

45:51

could say equivalently. as much

45:53

as people think

45:55

if they're reading

45:57

a newspaper or

45:59

something newspaper or their

46:01

brain the social

46:04

creatures and the

46:06

brain really depends

46:08

on social interaction brain

46:10

So from that

46:12

perspective, yep, on social

46:14

Yeah. Yes from that

46:16

perspective, yep, it's a brain

46:19

that so connect

46:21

with people that,

46:23

so connect with people. Okay.

46:25

Okay sounds good. sounds

46:27

good. Bye for

46:29

now now. You