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in theaters. Welcome to the

1:19

New Books Network. Hello. Welcome

1:21

to our podcast and YouTube

1:23

channel. Brain brought what our

1:26

screens are doing to our minds.

1:28

Today we are going to talk

1:30

about the negative effects of

1:32

too much screen time in

1:35

middle and older adulthood. February

1:37

Science and a psychoanalytic

1:40

perspective. I'm Dr. Karen

1:42

Messina, a psychologist, a

1:45

psychoanalyst and author and the

1:47

host of a new book's

1:49

network podcast. I will be

1:51

discussing these topics with Dr.

1:53

Harry Guild, who is

1:55

a very well-known psychiatrist

1:57

who also has a

2:00

PhD in neuroscience. As

2:02

I said, we're going

2:04

to focus on middle

2:06

age and older adulthood.

2:08

The effects that screen

2:10

time has on this

2:13

group, so studies that

2:15

illustrate what happens and

2:17

we're going to try to

2:19

touch on what people can

2:21

do about this. So, Dr.

2:23

Guild, do you want to

2:25

tell our listeners and viewers

2:27

the effects of too much

2:29

screen time on middle age

2:31

and older people? Absolutely.

2:33

It's actually important

2:36

for listeners or viewers to

2:38

refer to the earlier episodes

2:40

where we discuss the brain

2:43

development and wiring because in

2:45

adulthood, our brains are more

2:47

or less wired and are

2:50

pretty... closed box, if you

2:52

will, during adulthood, unless the

2:54

person engages in therapy and

2:57

really behavioral changes and focuses

2:59

on changing all of the

3:01

internal reflexes that we have

3:04

in place. In the, as

3:06

we age, the prefrontal cortex

3:08

that is so critical in

3:10

early development is beginning

3:13

to deteriorate. And from

3:16

that perspective, the maintenance

3:18

of function, and we'll talk

3:20

a little bit more detail about

3:23

what we can do to preserve

3:25

the function of the brain as

3:27

long as is possible. And

3:29

in the adulthood, what I

3:31

would like to reflect on is

3:33

But by now, if we have

3:36

developed habits of engaging with a

3:38

lot of screen, engaging in a

3:40

lot of what we would call

3:43

in therapy defensive, maneuvering, meaning when

3:45

we're distressed, when we're anxious, when

3:47

we don't want to deal with

3:50

a conflict or a particular problem,

3:52

we use screen as a pacifier.

3:54

It's a habit that is well

3:57

established, and it is going to

3:59

affect... the daily functioning. In

4:01

adulthood, we're talking about age

4:03

30 and above. The person

4:05

generally has figured out what

4:08

their career goals are, what

4:10

jobs they're in, and they're

4:12

essentially in the decade where

4:14

majority of the professional success

4:16

and family success will take

4:19

place. And from that perspective,

4:21

the time is incredibly valuable

4:23

in your 30s and your

4:25

40s. At 50s, you're hopefully

4:27

established, and by the 60s,

4:30

you're hopefully slowly slowing down,

4:32

other than Dr. Messina never

4:34

slows down. And so it's

4:36

a variable that easily gets

4:38

forgotten. in the clinical material,

4:41

and I'm sure Dr. Messina

4:43

has examples of this as

4:45

well, people have real consequences

4:47

to their professional careers. because

4:49

they're distracted by their addiction

4:52

to this, that, and the

4:54

other thing that involves screen,

4:56

whether it's gambling or online

4:58

porn, it takes that essential

5:00

piece of time where people

5:03

reflect on their life, on

5:05

their goals, and their relationships,

5:07

on their children, on their

5:09

families. And from that perspective,

5:11

that's... The little bit of

5:14

hygiene that we have to

5:16

engage in in our relationship

5:18

with screens is going to

5:20

be really important. And I'm

5:22

curious, Dr. Messina, what is

5:24

your take on adulthood and

5:27

screen and the interface? Well,

5:29

I'll continue with, I'll continue

5:31

with Eric Erickson stages of

5:33

development and the last two

5:35

in particular. Last time we

5:38

talked about early adulthood and

5:40

today... We're going to talk

5:42

about, or I'm going to

5:44

mention, the last two stages,

5:46

which are generativity versus stagnation

5:49

and ego identity, sometimes just

5:51

that is identity versus despair.

5:53

And it's very interesting, which

5:55

I'll get into a little

5:57

later, and I'm sure you

6:00

will too, how things have

6:02

shifted. It used to be

6:04

that there is a stereotype

6:06

of a 12, 13, and

6:08

14 year old in front

6:11

of some kind of screen,

6:13

or whether it be a

6:15

phone or a video game

6:17

or whatever. But now, older

6:19

people are also in front

6:22

of screens for many many

6:24

hours a day. So in

6:26

one one well it was

6:28

a study but one example

6:30

I read yeah there's a

6:33

mother who is very upset

6:35

I think she was in

6:37

her late 30s because her

6:39

daughter could not get grandma's

6:41

attention because grandma was on

6:44

social media. Now, this is

6:46

something that a few years

6:48

back, I don't think was

6:50

so, so common, but it

6:52

is quite common, not just

6:55

social media, but it's not

6:57

just TVs that older people

6:59

watch. So I think there's

7:01

sort of a, a bit

7:03

of misinformation. People that go

7:05

to other people, you know,

7:08

they can't write emails if

7:10

they're out on social media.

7:12

And that's true for some,

7:14

but it's certainly not true

7:16

for all. There were actually

7:19

in this, in this article,

7:21

there were several, stories,

7:23

examples of people, older people,

7:26

who were not paying attention

7:28

to their grandchildren because they're

7:31

on some sort of screen.

7:33

So just specifically, it into

7:36

generativity versus stagnation. If you're

7:38

not familiar with these terms,

7:41

it might not be obvious,

7:43

but generativity obviously is being

7:46

generous, generative. with a younger

7:48

generation, giving back, doing something,

7:51

teaching, doing something for younger

7:53

people, for society, for actually

7:56

people in your community, but

7:58

it's giving back. of course,

8:01

giving back makes people feel

8:03

good. This is versus stagnation,

8:05

where I guess it's pretty

8:08

obvious what that means, but

8:10

it leads to isolation.

8:12

And isolation for

8:14

anybody isn't good. But

8:16

if people are, I don't know,

8:19

stagnating and they're

8:21

also just possibly fixated

8:24

on screens, that's sort of

8:26

a double whammy. So that's

8:29

really bad. And actually,

8:31

at least according to

8:33

Erickson, this starts the

8:35

other than you might think.

8:38

And this is relative, but

8:40

Erickson was talking about

8:42

from 40 to 65, and

8:45

then integrity versus despair was

8:47

after 65. Now, there is

8:50

variation in that, but that's

8:52

either give back or you

8:54

stagnate. Over the years, they

8:56

really got interested in the

8:59

terms of generativity versus stagnation.

9:01

And for me, generativity also

9:04

includes all acts of creation,

9:06

of creativity. And from that

9:09

perspective, creating a family is

9:11

the act of generativity, creating

9:13

relationship in the community is

9:16

act of generativity, creating a

9:18

career, creating a child. And

9:20

those are all acts of

9:22

generativity. and stagnation is

9:25

almost described by a

9:27

person that may even be being

9:29

fully employed but they do

9:31

their job they come home and they

9:33

stare at the screen. That is the

9:36

act of stagnation in which

9:38

as you said nothing is

9:40

contributed to self and nothing

9:43

is contributed to the other

9:45

whether it's the community or

9:48

the love relationship. And Eddie

9:50

goes back to the variable of time.

9:52

If we work eight hours and we

9:54

come home and we're a little bit

9:57

tired, how can we not engage in

9:59

something that... seemingly pleasurable but is

10:01

going to eat the rest of

10:03

the day away. So the very

10:06

very willful acts are required

10:08

to put the screens away and

10:10

to spend some time thinking

10:13

of what should I be

10:15

doing because we are looking

10:17

at a generational shift where

10:19

increasingly people are afraid of

10:21

having families, people are afraid

10:24

of having... marriages, people

10:26

are afraid of having

10:29

children, and the consumption

10:31

of both material

10:34

and screen times

10:36

is replacing generativity

10:38

in general. Yeah, that's a

10:40

very good point. Thank

10:42

you for bringing that up.

10:45

Just to touch on

10:47

integrity versus despair,

10:49

it might be obvious, but

10:51

it's feeling good about

10:53

integrity, one's life, what

10:56

one has accomplished, recognizing

10:58

mistakes, but being okay

11:00

with it is part

11:02

of integrity. The spirit

11:04

is, I guess, pretty

11:06

obvious. And I think of it

11:09

as the blah humbug people.

11:11

Everything's bad, everything's

11:13

due and gloom, life is

11:15

terrible, I'm old, I'm depressed,

11:17

I'm not going to do

11:20

anything. And of course, screen

11:22

time. doesn't help that because

11:24

I think there's a tendency

11:27

to just sink into that

11:29

despair. And if you watch, I

11:32

mean studies indicate if people,

11:34

if older people, other people

11:37

to watch like six hours

11:39

of either television or they're

11:41

engaged in some other form

11:43

of screen time that leads

11:46

to a lot of anxiety

11:48

and depression. I also think

11:50

it affects Your brain too,

11:52

Harry, right? Correct? Yeah,

11:54

absolutely, because it's not,

11:57

screens are generally not

11:59

very... engaging and it's

12:01

a very circumspect engagement even

12:04

when it is engagement. So

12:06

the kind of abstract thought

12:08

or the kind of problem

12:11

solving that is required is

12:13

generally not engaged. So there

12:15

is no growth or maintenance

12:18

of function. And to

12:20

sort of expand a little

12:22

bit on despair and how

12:24

important it is for the 40s

12:26

and 50s to be filled

12:29

with generativity. In the clinical

12:31

material, working with people that

12:33

enter the despair stage, if

12:35

a lot of time was stolen

12:38

and decisions are made that

12:40

affect people, that in the

12:42

end lead to immutable conditions,

12:44

despair prevailed. So to be

12:47

very clear, I'll use an

12:49

example of a person that

12:51

chooses affirmatively not to have

12:53

children. because it is

12:55

anxiety provoking, because it is

12:58

screens ate up too much

13:00

time, there was a pursuit

13:02

of the ideal partner, and

13:05

the relationship never took place.

13:07

And most of my

13:09

clinical material people have

13:11

deep profound regrets about

13:14

not having children, if

13:16

they reached a point

13:18

where biologically that is no

13:21

longer possible. So that

13:23

integration. that helps us overcome

13:25

despair that we are, the

13:27

bodies are falling apart, we're looking

13:30

at the death that's coming

13:32

and all of the uncomfortable facts

13:34

of the aging process. It's tremendously

13:37

helped by activities during

13:39

the earlier stages of

13:41

adulthood. The more generativity, the

13:44

more material for

13:46

integration. The less generativity,

13:48

the more reason for despair.

13:50

Very good point. I wanted

13:53

to share an example

13:55

of a couple who I

13:57

knew. They're no longer

13:59

alive. The difference in

14:01

the two people was so, it

14:04

was, it was remarkable

14:06

in that the woman was

14:09

very upbeat. She lived

14:11

to be beyond 100, but

14:13

she was, and they both

14:16

lived in a nursing home

14:18

towards the end of their

14:21

lives. The woman was always

14:23

in the community room. She

14:25

was at the, actually the

14:28

women reminded me of teenagers

14:30

because there was definitely an

14:32

in-crowd and then other people

14:35

were more on the fringes

14:37

of the in-crowd or they

14:39

weren't even close. But this

14:42

woman happened to be invited

14:44

when she arrived and I don't

14:47

think she was aware of

14:49

this to the, to, maybe

14:51

it was something equivalent to

14:53

the mean girls table. but

14:55

she definitely was not a

14:57

mean girl. She was a lovely

14:59

person, always upbeat, really just

15:01

happy about things she would

15:03

go, even if she didn't

15:05

feel well to play bingal

15:07

or whatever, other games they

15:09

played. So she'd been generative

15:11

early, but it could just see

15:13

that she had so much integrity

15:16

about her life. wasn't perfect. It

15:18

kind of reminds me, and she

15:20

would have liked this song. It's

15:22

an old, old, I just happened

15:25

to hear it the other day,

15:27

a frank, said, after a song,

15:29

I did it my way. This

15:32

woman definitely did it her way. And,

15:34

you know, if she made mistakes, but

15:36

she got past them and she

15:38

was okay. Whereas the man, her

15:40

husband stayed in bed most

15:43

of the time and was

15:45

very depressed. because he was

15:47

one of the reasons because

15:49

he was old because he he

15:52

wasn't he had been quite

15:54

a ladies band because he

15:57

couldn't flirt with the nurses

15:59

anymore. maybe he could but I

16:01

don't think it he got the

16:03

results and he was younger and

16:06

there was just no point in

16:08

living for him so it's part

16:10

of the fact that my therapist

16:13

visited and he took medication

16:15

it just and life wasn't

16:18

worth it anymore I was

16:20

just such a contrast to

16:22

this woman who outlived the man

16:24

by probably five years

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17:10

terms, conditions, terms, and restrictions, and restrictions,

17:12

conditions, and restrictions, conditions, details, and terms,

17:14

and terms, subject to change. Subject to

17:17

change. I

17:19

think the interesting phenomena

17:21

of screen intrusion

17:24

in our life that I've

17:26

observed through my career, again

17:28

I were practiced before iPhone

17:31

and after iPhone and I

17:33

think those are really the

17:35

errors where the screens and

17:38

the availability of distraction has

17:41

exploded, the lack of... even

17:43

communal experience of similar

17:45

movies or similar magazines

17:48

or similar whatever,

17:50

has really amplified

17:52

isolation in adulthood,

17:54

where people feel really they

17:56

have their sort of unique

17:58

echo boxes. that echo chambers

18:01

where they share very similar

18:03

ideas, but they're fairly isolated

18:05

from community at large, leads,

18:07

dare I say, into big

18:09

political shifts as well, in

18:11

which we no longer can

18:13

have reasonable civilized conversations around

18:16

disagreements, where the only way

18:18

we communicate or the only

18:20

communication allowed is the communication

18:22

of agreement. And if there

18:24

is disagreement, people are canceled.

18:26

People are canceled. a very

18:28

not adult behavior, very much

18:30

retained teenage behavior in which

18:32

world is black and white.

18:35

So we're looking at sort

18:37

of the very dramatic impact

18:39

of screens on how people

18:41

think, which would be how

18:43

their brains are not evolving

18:45

into adult stage of being

18:47

able to manage conflict, being

18:49

able to see the gray,

18:51

being able to empathize and

18:54

mentalize the others' position. And

18:56

all the very simple consequence

18:58

of staring at something that

19:00

is creating reality that we,

19:02

unless given some other data,

19:04

we can't help but to

19:06

believe that this is in

19:08

particular real. So the disintegration

19:10

of reality, because of the

19:12

screens, is leading to disintegration

19:15

of a normal, what I

19:17

would consider as an older

19:19

person, a normative adult experience

19:21

of community, and is progressively

19:23

leading to isolation of adults,

19:25

and even more so, as

19:27

we get physically, worse off

19:29

as we age, it creates

19:31

an even more isolation amongst

19:34

the elderly. Where maybe as

19:36

we were talking, Dr. Messina,

19:38

the only place where I

19:40

would say, okay, screens have

19:42

something positive to add to

19:44

their experience is in the,

19:46

in the end. elderly stage

19:48

of life where screens can

19:50

promote social connection and communication.

19:53

Well I think they also

19:55

could definitely be a defense

19:57

mechanism in that they can

19:59

lead people to or cause

20:01

them to avoid dealing with

20:03

challenges and anxieties associated with

20:05

each developmental stage if you

20:07

just watch a screen all

20:09

the time. don't have to

20:12

really think about, well, it

20:14

might be generative, or are

20:16

there people with whom I

20:18

could connect, or people who

20:20

I could help, if you

20:22

just kind of fixate on

20:24

something, then the possibility of

20:26

a real connection, and meeting

20:28

a difference, even if it's

20:31

a small difference of one

20:33

person, that kind of just

20:35

kind of... feeds away. It's

20:37

a term where I kind

20:39

of like it because I

20:41

think it's descriptive, which is

20:43

digital escapism. It's just escaping

20:45

the realities of life. Everybody

20:47

might need to escape, especially

20:50

now with so many things

20:52

going on. Whether it's airline

20:54

peace. Speaking of anxiety, the

20:56

screens are almost like... We

20:58

talked about this more with

21:00

the younger population, but it

21:02

holds true with this population

21:04

as well. It's a pacifier.

21:06

When people are anxious about

21:09

the political process, the compulsion

21:11

to check the news and

21:13

see if something new happened

21:15

is the world still there

21:17

has really exploded. And interestingly,

21:19

speaking of the brains and

21:21

neuroscience, I think we're looking

21:23

at an explosion of diagnosing

21:25

and treating adult attention deficit

21:27

disorder. And to be introduced

21:30

a little neuroscience, we have

21:32

areas in the prefrontal cortex

21:34

that are devoted to ability

21:36

to maintain. attention, it's called

21:38

tenacity of attention, and other

21:40

areas of the brain that

21:42

help us change attention. And

21:44

when we're exposed to screens

21:46

in which there's constant stimulation,

21:49

I once for a day

21:51

had Instagram, I think I

21:53

talked about it before, the

21:55

dizzying array of completely incoherent

21:57

pictures and short movies and

21:59

little songs. You can develop

22:01

ADHD in three days if

22:03

you spend some time because

22:05

the areas of the brain

22:08

that are now being very

22:10

significantly reinforced are the areas

22:12

of the brain that support

22:14

ability to shift attention, hence

22:16

the distractibility and the population

22:18

that increasingly can sit down

22:20

with a book in silence

22:22

and read a sentence because

22:24

it is... It is not

22:27

stimulating enough. We have to

22:29

change how we teach children

22:31

because material has to be

22:33

stimulating enough because we are

22:35

unable, and this is a

22:37

brain change, we're unable to

22:39

maintain attention for any stretch

22:41

of time. I love music,

22:43

which some people can recognize

22:46

their records behind me. It

22:48

was interesting to read studies

22:50

of sort of what changed

22:52

the structure of the modern

22:54

song. and it was fascinating

22:56

to me to see the

22:58

new song you mentioned Frank

23:00

Sinatra had a certain structure

23:02

there was an intro and

23:05

it refrained and and and

23:07

now because they they have

23:09

to grab the attention in

23:11

the streamed musical context they

23:13

need to put all of

23:15

the fun engaging stuff up

23:17

front and it has completely

23:19

changed what the current sort

23:21

of the standard three-minute song

23:24

sounds like. to the world.

23:26

And it was interesting to

23:28

see a very direct change

23:30

of how a screen or

23:32

the way we consume information

23:34

has completely transformed one form

23:36

of light, if you will.

23:38

That's where that's at your

23:40

stakes as we're talking about

23:43

the brain. I mean, you

23:45

could say a little bit

23:47

about the blue light that's

23:49

admitted from screens that can

23:51

interfere with the production of

23:53

melatonin and lead to sleep

23:55

issues. So the very fine

23:57

balance in the brain determines

23:59

sleep wake cycle and But

24:01

the amount of acetylcholine, which

24:04

is an activational neurotransmitter, determines

24:06

our wake state and melotoning

24:08

gets a credit to promote

24:10

sleeping cycle. So the blue

24:12

light essentially fools the brain

24:14

into thinking it's still daytime.

24:16

So there is suppression of

24:18

melotone, but also continued secretion

24:20

of acetylcholine. So the brain

24:23

is in an active state,

24:25

ready to receive information of

24:27

acetylcholine. So the brain is

24:29

in an active state ready

24:31

to receive information. And so

24:33

the blue light to a

24:35

certain extent, I actually believe

24:37

that blue light is almost

24:39

a smaller component of the

24:42

impact of screen and sleep.

24:44

I think it's more the

24:46

engagement of the information. Because

24:48

the information comes inside, it

24:50

creates reaction in the brain

24:52

and the thoughts and the

24:54

activity of engaging of the

24:56

inputs. increases the production of

24:58

a cetylcholine, melatonin gets suppressed,

25:01

so we can't go to

25:03

sleep. So it's interplay of

25:05

both, and just, you know,

25:07

I don't have any scientific

25:09

data to support this, but

25:11

colloquially talking to patients' personal

25:13

experience. I think blue light

25:15

is a piece of it,

25:17

because even with blue light

25:20

glasses, I can stay up

25:22

watching YouTube music videos all

25:24

night, left to my own

25:26

devices. And again, there is

25:28

a, there's an effortful way

25:30

to manage. What I tell

25:32

all of my clients is

25:34

we go through mathematics. When

25:36

do you have to wake

25:39

up in the morning to

25:41

be an adequate parent and

25:43

get your children dressed fed

25:45

and ready for school and

25:47

not screaming at them? because

25:49

you overslept? And then you

25:51

back out of that seven

25:53

or eight hours and then

25:55

when do you need to

25:58

put all the devices away?

26:00

And what is the drop

26:02

dead deadline when everything stops

26:04

and you're going to sleep?

26:06

It's a very affirmative way

26:08

of managing time versus letting

26:10

it just happen because it

26:12

doesn't with the amount of

26:14

screen intrusion that we have

26:16

these days. Well, that is

26:19

an interesting way to think

26:21

about it. What are some

26:23

other things that we can

26:25

tell people? I mean, I

26:27

know there's some things that

26:29

I tell people, but it

26:31

would be good to see

26:33

it together about what we

26:35

could do about this screen

26:38

time. So if people are

26:40

addicted to it, how could

26:42

they move away from the

26:44

addiction? Obviously, just why the

26:46

definition of the word, addictions

26:48

are hard to... break or

26:50

it's hard to break that

26:52

cycle, but what are some

26:54

ways that are useful to

26:57

help people think about how

26:59

they can get away from

27:01

this? I think it's sort

27:03

of, I'll share my experience

27:05

of trying to break the

27:07

addiction, you know, personally, and

27:09

how possible it is. But

27:11

to directly answer your question,

27:13

I think the framework for

27:16

me is to say there's

27:18

screen time versus screen all

27:20

the time. I like that.

27:22

And if we make a

27:24

distinction that there is screen

27:26

time and we decide how

27:28

much of that screen time

27:30

we engage in and how

27:32

is it allocated, then we

27:35

are in charge of the

27:37

screen and not vice versa.

27:39

And in reality, you know,

27:41

the briefing yet, you know,

27:43

had this crazy episode in

27:45

mid-2000s after iPhone came out

27:47

and realized how much time

27:49

it swallows. even with that

27:51

ID BD iPhone 4 screen,

27:54

I tried to go back

27:56

to my Motorola razor flip

27:58

phone and couldn't because I

28:00

couldn't book a restaurant. I

28:02

couldn't really answer an email on that

28:04

keyboard. I couldn't really answer a text.

28:07

And I think it lasted maybe two

28:09

days and I was back on the

28:11

screen. It is interesting how

28:13

designed really makes a difference. I

28:16

don't have the Motorola razor, the

28:18

new one. I just bought a

28:20

new flip phone that closes and

28:22

the fact that screen is not

28:24

staring at me has reduced to

28:27

the realization of the screen. just

28:29

how I experiment with these things.

28:31

Bigger screens take more time. But

28:34

the important thing with screens

28:36

is not to let it interfere

28:38

with our social experience. Well, we

28:41

need to put them away when

28:43

we're with family. We need to

28:46

put them away. In any situation

28:48

where engagement with screen is

28:50

going to take away from

28:52

here and now, the experience that

28:55

we're having right this minute.

28:57

To learn how to allocate

28:59

attention to a particular

29:01

thing and inhibit the other

29:04

thing will also help the explosion

29:06

of adults ADHD. A

29:09

lot of it is mechanical.

29:11

A lot of people working

29:13

from home that resisted

29:15

going back to work. I, as

29:17

a clinician, I pushed him to

29:19

go back to work because at

29:22

home there were too many distractions

29:24

and screen was one of the

29:26

biggest ones. So it's too easy

29:28

to check the phone, too easy

29:30

to switch the browser into something

29:32

else and is a well-intentioned good

29:34

performing workers but really dragged

29:36

by the attraction of avoidance.

29:38

As you said, Dr. Messina,

29:41

avoidance of anxiety, avoidance of

29:43

boredom. It's just easy. So to

29:45

put guardrails on the screen

29:47

is really the technique. Maybe

29:50

it's funny, maybe it isn't,

29:52

but I usually tell my

29:54

clients, you can turn the

29:56

phone off unless you're a

29:59

neurosurgeon. had Children's Hospital

30:01

in Washington DC on

30:03

the call, anything on your screen

30:05

can wait. It is not essential

30:07

that she immediately answered the

30:10

text that she immediately are

30:12

aware of Instagram post. It is

30:14

not that important. So

30:16

detoxifying this sort of imagined

30:18

sense that screens create that

30:21

everything that pops up to

30:23

notifications is really important. We

30:26

detoxify that we have to work

30:28

really, really. Spend some time

30:30

and turn off the notifications.

30:32

You really don't need to

30:34

be notified about much of

30:36

anything Until you are ready

30:38

to encounter those notifications checked

30:40

in use check your text

30:43

lines So it's defined by

30:45

a relationship. It's different for

30:47

every person, but again back

30:49

to the it should be

30:51

screen time not screen all the time

30:53

Yes, and I think what we're

30:55

talking about is rule setting for

30:58

yourself setting boundaries and

31:00

rules and guardrails. For

31:03

example, we know it's

31:05

not a good idea to watch

31:07

TV, shut it off, and try

31:09

to go to sleep. So, optimally,

31:12

it probably isn't the most

31:14

ideal thing to have a

31:16

television in your bedroom.

31:19

But if you do, it's probably

31:21

good to have a time.

31:23

Everybody agrees on, or I

31:25

ask two people. one person

31:28

decides, okay, it's going off

31:30

at X time, so that

31:32

there's a time when you

31:34

can chill, relax, and

31:36

think, read, whatever, but

31:38

a time when you're not.

31:41

Absolutely, Dr. Messier,

31:43

that the awareness that it

31:45

goes back to that main

31:47

facts, that I think drives

31:50

our entire life, we begin

31:52

and we end. and in

31:54

between there is X amount of

31:56

time that is unknown and

31:58

as such every day Yeah, go back

32:00

to beyond. Every group is a

32:02

lifetime. It begins and it ends.

32:05

So every day has a birth

32:07

and death. And awareness of time

32:09

is incredibly important. I personally have

32:11

an advice client. If they have

32:13

a TV in bedroom, have a

32:15

clock that is right under the

32:18

TV. So you're aware of what

32:20

you exactly said. When the clock

32:22

says it's 11 p.m. If that's

32:24

your time to turn off the

32:26

TV, you turn off the TV.

32:28

The success of the screens is

32:31

largely related to increased

32:33

efficiency in which they intrude

32:35

upon our day-to-day needs. So nearly

32:38

100% of my clients will say,

32:40

I can't put the phone outside

32:42

of the bedroom. I use it as

32:45

an alarm clock. And my answer

32:47

is, go buy an alarm clock.

32:49

They're like six bucks, and you

32:51

put that on the nightstand, and

32:53

we all woke up in the

32:55

70s. It was doable. Yes, but

32:57

because the phone now has

32:59

integrated an alarm function, now

33:01

it's essential. Then the next

33:03

one I get is, but

33:06

I listen to music on

33:08

it. Go on biased cheap

33:10

radio. CD players are very

33:12

cheap. There are various ways

33:14

to listen to music that

33:16

don't engage the screen. I

33:18

haven't argued it's much better

33:20

without the screen, but that's

33:23

just me. So being aware. Metawares,

33:25

and asking yourself the question, do

33:27

I need screen for this? And

33:30

how much a screen I need,

33:32

is really the question, because addiction

33:34

is fed by the presence of

33:36

the stimulus. So the screen, I have

33:39

several in front of me, it's

33:41

like having a bottle of vodka

33:43

for an alcoholic right next to

33:45

you within the arms reach. It's

33:47

going to be really quiet to

33:49

resist. And what they make even

33:51

more fascinatingly interesting is with notifications

33:53

you go to look at one

33:55

thing and there's 15 other things

33:57

that are going to get you.

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Or 1. or 1. Well,

44:46

so we will continue

44:48

talking about all the

44:50

interesting things and maybe

44:52

some unsettling things about

44:54

screens going forward, but

44:56

there's no shortage of

44:58

material or studies or

45:00

information about it. So

45:02

we'll be sharing those

45:04

things as we continue.

45:06

Let's talk about sense

45:08

of reality and artificial

45:10

intelligence next time. Okay,

45:12

that sounds good. Okay.

45:14

Thank you, Doctor. Tells

45:16

that. Bye-bye. Thank you,

45:18

Doctor Hill.