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by location. Excludes Alaska and Hawaii. Welcome

1:31

to the New Books Network. Hello,

1:36

everyone, and welcome back to New

1:38

Books in African American Studies, a

1:40

podcast channel on the New Books

1:42

Network. I am Dr. Nicosio, the

1:44

host of the channel. Dr.

1:47

Philip McHarris joins me today. He

1:50

is an assistant professor at

1:52

the Frederick Douglass Institute and

1:54

the Department of Black Studies

1:56

at the University of Rochester. He

1:58

is the author of Beyond Poison. which we

2:01

are discussing on the show

2:03

today. Dr. McHarris, welcome to

2:05

New Books. Thank you

2:07

very much. I'm very happy to be all with

2:09

you. I'm so glad to

2:11

be in conversation with you about

2:13

this book. So before

2:15

we dive into the content,

2:17

I want to talk a

2:19

little bit about yourself and

2:21

your intellectual pedigree. You

2:24

earned your PhD in

2:26

2021 from Yale in

2:28

the Department of Sociology

2:30

and African -American studies. And

2:32

you have written extensively

2:35

on race and policing since

2:37

then, including Time, Magazine,

2:40

Essence, and The

2:42

New York Times. And

2:44

you also appear on

2:46

HBO's Axios, Al

2:48

Jazeera, and ABC talking

2:50

about policing as well. How

2:53

is your research training

2:56

in sociology and African -American

2:58

studies? So

3:03

that's a great question. And,

3:05

you know, I think my training

3:07

has definitely informed how I approach

3:09

writing, scholarship, engaging

3:11

in theories and

3:14

ideas. And when I

3:16

got to grad school in 2014, you

3:18

know, there was so much going on. There

3:20

was the uprising in Ferguson following the murder of

3:22

Michael Brown, which was coming on the heels

3:24

of the murder trip on Martin. And

3:27

there was just so much. happening

3:29

in terms of social movements and

3:31

protests and resistance against police violence,

3:33

state violence, as well as vigilante

3:35

violence. And I got

3:37

to grad school in the middle of

3:39

that period. And so I think it

3:41

was a space where I was able

3:44

to dig into the ideas, dig

3:46

into the history and have tools and

3:48

have a growing amount of tools, whether

3:50

it be from a historical standpoint, whether

3:52

it be thinking sociologically. or

3:54

understanding it from thinking about the

3:56

political dimensions and so on and

3:58

so forth, it was

4:00

really helpful to be in a space

4:02

where I was able to rely and

4:04

use different tools and training to approach

4:07

these questions. And it was also just

4:09

helpful to be able to sit with

4:11

ideas and books and articles and see

4:13

what other folks have written and also

4:15

to see in some ways what folks

4:17

haven't written. And when I got to

4:19

grad school, one of the main things

4:21

that I wanted to see was a

4:23

sort of a cohesive, comprehensive overview of

4:25

the critical history of police. And to

4:27

be honest, it was hard to find

4:30

at that time. And so a

4:32

lot of what I was seeing was like

4:34

different pieces of the puzzle. And so the

4:36

first part of the book is called histories.

4:38

And essentially, I write the history that I

4:40

wanted to essentially read when I first got

4:42

to grad school. And so it

4:44

was helpful to be in that space because I was

4:46

able to learn, see. figure out

4:48

a patchwork of histories, and I was

4:51

also able to see some of

4:53

the gaps in the literature and figure

4:55

out ways that I wanted to

4:57

contribute to the conversation around policing, especially

4:59

in the context of that first part

5:01

around histories. As

5:04

you mentioned, you came into

5:06

your PhD program against the

5:08

background of the killing of

5:10

Michael Brown, and you actually

5:12

were a protester in Ferguson,

5:14

Missouri. The place in which

5:16

Michael Brown was killed by

5:18

a white police officer in

5:21

2014. Tell us a

5:23

little bit about that. Yeah,

5:25

2014 was a very

5:27

tense time and there was

5:29

growing social movements that were

5:31

emerging across the country. I

5:33

spent some time in Ferguson when

5:35

there were protests going on there. I

5:38

spent some time in Baltimore following

5:40

the murder of Shreddy Gray. And

5:42

in New York City, close by New Haven,

5:44

while I was in grad school, I

5:47

was a founding member of

5:49

Black Youth Project 100, the

5:51

New York City job there. And

5:53

so there was a range in a

5:55

lot of different spaces. There was

5:57

a campaign that was started in New

6:00

York City called Safety Be Out

6:02

Police saying that I became involved with.

6:04

I was in these spaces learning

6:06

about these issues, but then I was

6:08

in places like Ferguson where I'm

6:10

seeing the tactical equipment, the military grade

6:12

equipment, the MRAPS. And,

6:15

you know, the weaponry and I was

6:17

seeing these things. And so my master's project

6:20

was around police militarization. And so I'm

6:22

like reading about it. I'm learning about the

6:24

1033 program, but then I'm actually like

6:26

seeing it. It was a really interesting experience.

6:28

And I feel like a lot of

6:30

that came out in the book, you know,

6:32

so I include some of those stories

6:34

in the interludes of being head on with

6:36

this massive policing apparatus that exists within

6:38

the context of the U .S. at the

6:40

same time, while I'm like studying and reading

6:42

and learning about these things. And so.

6:45

It was definitely an interesting experience and a

6:47

lot of it I treated ethnographically, like

6:49

in terms of being bulged on the ground.

6:51

A lot of like even the essays

6:54

that I include, they literally were

6:56

notes that I had essentially akin to

6:58

field notes to that or just

7:00

sort of notes around the experiences that

7:02

sat, some of them sat within

7:04

my notes folders or like as notes

7:06

for a while. And then when

7:08

I started to turn to this book, I started to sort

7:10

of like really sift through, make sense, synthesize.

7:14

The book project ended up being a

7:16

mixture of the academic work, also these experiences

7:18

with an activist basis, but then also

7:20

my own experiences growing up as a

7:22

young black kid in the Bronx and the

7:24

New Jersey and experiencing police violence myself

7:26

and also seeing it affect my family.

7:28

That all ends up becoming a part

7:30

of the texture of the book and it

7:33

was something that was important for me.

7:35

I could have just wrote a book,

7:37

and I think there are plenty of great

7:39

books that do this, but just wrote

7:41

a book from an academic standpoint around

7:43

policing. But I came into a world

7:45

that was structured by a particular kind of

7:47

reality. And the part of that reality

7:49

was that the communities that I was

7:51

embedded in experienced the brunt end of police

7:54

violence routinely. And so for me, it

7:56

was important to include that rather than

7:58

try to write that out as if

8:00

it wasn't a part of what made this

8:02

book. And

8:04

I want to stay on

8:06

this point for just another moment

8:08

about the realities of you

8:10

being in the throes of protest.

8:13

You were also a protester

8:15

in Baltimore over Freddie Gray, who

8:18

was arrested for allegedly

8:20

possessing a knife. And

8:23

while under police custody,

8:25

he had fatal injuries to

8:27

his cervical spinal cord

8:29

that ultimately caused him his

8:31

death. is on timely

8:34

death. And so thinking

8:36

about your protest and

8:38

experience a year before in

8:40

Ferguson, protesting the death

8:42

of Michael Brown, to thinking

8:44

about the next year

8:46

in 2015 over the death

8:48

of Freddie Gray, how

8:50

was the protest and policing

8:53

experiences different or was there

8:55

a difference? That's a really

8:57

good question. And it's interesting

8:59

because it was something that

9:02

I have thought a lot

9:04

about and I did at

9:06

the time and it was

9:08

something that ended up becoming

9:11

a part of my understanding

9:13

of police repression and police

9:15

tactics in different geographic and

9:17

spatial context. So I appreciate

9:19

that question. And so I definitely

9:21

think space matters for everything and

9:23

it certainly matters for policing and

9:25

how communities are police and also

9:28

how protest and resistance is police.

9:30

One of the things that became

9:33

very apparent in Ferguson, and

9:35

I had this story where I

9:37

detailed and experienced what I was

9:39

with my sister in Ferguson is,

9:42

you know, essentially where there was protesters

9:44

there in front of the police

9:46

station. There were calls to disperse with

9:48

the protest that were directly in

9:51

front of the police station and not

9:53

across the street. Chaos ensued. And

9:55

then I just remembered this split second

9:57

where I saw police in military

9:59

grade equipment. descend from

10:01

almost every direction. And

10:04

they essentially bottlenecked us in a

10:06

way where it was almost every single

10:08

way that you can get out

10:10

was sort of blocked by police descending

10:12

from those spaces. They weren't there

10:14

before, but once things sort of kicked

10:16

off, they immediately descended in a

10:18

way that created almost a container. And

10:21

I remember being in Baltimore where...

10:23

There were different kinds of strategies and

10:25

tactics. I remember the helicopter overhead,

10:27

and I remember when they were dispersing,

10:29

I remember at night, Nadiz tell

10:31

the story where they set off tear

10:34

gas, and there was a young

10:36

kid that got hit by it, and

10:38

he went into a health emergency.

10:40

He couldn't breathe, and he was unconscious,

10:42

and his friends literally put him

10:44

in the back of my Honda Civic

10:47

at the time, and I was

10:49

with my two sisters because they couldn't

10:51

run and carry him away from

10:53

the tear gas. And I

10:55

just remember that experience. I

10:57

remember seeing the MRAPs. I

10:59

remember essentially we were functioning as

11:01

first responders for protesters that

11:03

were getting injured by police

11:06

repression. And so I remember

11:08

that spatially it was different because

11:10

the environment was different. And

11:12

so it would be much

11:14

harder in a context like

11:16

Baltimore where the environment is different.

11:18

It's spanned out in a

11:21

different way spatially. There's different

11:23

kinds of... where people could come

11:25

from, escape, flee, run. It

11:27

was very different. I

11:29

remember noticing that very early on

11:31

and it shaped also some of

11:33

the police tactics, some of the

11:35

police reactions and, you know, what

11:37

was possible. And so that became

11:39

very interesting to me and I

11:42

just remember being in those different

11:44

contexts and feeling like the possibilities

11:46

for what police repression looks like

11:48

and also what dissent looks like

11:50

was very much informed

11:52

by the spatial logics. So that

11:54

was definitely something that was really interesting

11:56

when you take a place that

11:59

can be more insular and more contained.

12:02

And so it was very interesting to

12:04

look at these different kinds of strategies,

12:06

these like kettling strategies and containing strategies

12:08

that could take place in a context

12:10

that was relatively insular versus a place

12:12

that was a bit different. And so

12:14

there were different kinds of strategies and

12:16

tactics that the police employed and also

12:18

just even in terms of the amount

12:20

of police. the presence of

12:23

the helicopter, things of that nature. That was

12:25

something that I spent a lot of

12:27

time thinking about. The spatial logics of policing

12:29

and the spatial logics of resistance and

12:31

when those two things meet what that looks

12:33

like. And so I definitely think like

12:35

everything else, space matters and it matters in

12:37

different ways. Man,

12:40

that's so fascinating. I

12:43

want to take a

12:45

moment to ask a question

12:48

that I asked every

12:50

guest on the show and...

12:52

causes everyone to investigate

12:54

the interiority for just a

12:56

moment. You are

12:58

a founding member of

13:00

the Black Youth Project

13:02

100 New York chapter. You

13:05

are an academic. You are an

13:07

activist. You have

13:09

published and have

13:11

spoken in mainstream

13:13

platforms. And among

13:16

all of those things that

13:18

you have done, Name a

13:20

moment in your career in

13:22

which you had self -doubt,

13:24

and then to think about

13:27

your greatest achievement. What

13:29

stands out is

13:32

I remember coming

13:34

into undergrad, and

13:36

I remember when I started

13:38

at Boston College, it being a

13:40

very different spatial context, racially,

13:44

socioeconomically, from

13:48

the predominantly black and Latinx

13:50

high school that I

13:52

went to in Northern New

13:54

Jersey. And I remember

13:56

getting to college and feeling a

13:58

sense of uncertainty around whether

14:00

or not I was prepared for

14:03

what was ahead, especially thinking

14:05

about all of these people who

14:07

had come from spaces that

14:09

were relatively similar to Boston College

14:11

and that might have had

14:14

a certain kind of preparedness for

14:16

that. that environment

14:18

in that space. I just remember

14:20

it took me a while to sort

14:22

of like shift out of that to realize

14:24

like, wait, I'm as capable as anyone

14:26

else here being in this space. And

14:29

you know, actually my experiences give

14:31

me a level of insight that allow

14:33

me to approach and view things

14:35

in a particular lens and that's additive

14:37

in a lot of ways. And

14:39

so that's one of the things that

14:41

I think about. And I just

14:43

remember when that light bulb clicked, it

14:46

changed my trajectory in such profound

14:48

ways. I'm grateful for also the

14:50

advisors and mentors that I had

14:52

that helped me see and help

14:54

to cultivate that ember to make

14:56

that light spark. Once

14:59

it did, things like grad school and

15:01

wanting to pursue a life of academic

15:03

study, all of these things really started

15:05

to get put together. And then things

15:07

like McManus Scholars Program, which I was

15:09

a part of at Boston College, was

15:11

another helpful thing. And I think about

15:13

my mentors like professor. Sean

15:16

McGuffey and other folks who really

15:18

provided a lot of mentorship, advising,

15:20

and support. And

15:22

it was really helpful. I

15:25

remember passing with dissertation, submission,

15:27

and the dissertation presentation.

15:30

I just remember being in New Haven.

15:32

I went out to a mountain

15:34

that I had climbed many times while

15:36

I was a grad student at

15:38

Yale. And I just remember

15:41

I still had all my gown. I got

15:43

pictures all over the mountain. I

15:45

went up there with my

15:47

best friend and we climbed it

15:49

and that was a feeling

15:51

that, you know, that

15:53

was like a once in a

15:55

lifetime kind of experience. It was

15:57

like years of work had sort

15:59

of culminated literally in a technical

16:01

moment where I had climbed this

16:04

mountain that I had loved so

16:06

much. And just as like one

16:08

other memory, I did

16:10

two events in Boston, and I was

16:12

actually, I mentioned my mentor, Professor

16:14

Sean McGuffey, and he was

16:16

the discussant. And he

16:18

had pulled up some of my

16:20

papers and my grades from being an

16:22

undergrad. And I took his classes

16:24

that first year and onward. He even

16:26

pulled up my letter of recommendation

16:28

that he wrote for grad school. And

16:30

it was such a full circle

16:32

moment. He was like just listing and

16:34

describing his experience with me from

16:36

like, from when I was an undergrad.

16:39

And it was really a full circle moment. The

16:41

launch of Beyond Policing was actually

16:43

in Boston with Professor McGuffey. It

16:45

was really a beautiful moment as

16:47

I started BC with some apprehension

16:50

and hesitancy. And 14 years later,

16:52

I'm back to the book. And

16:54

with the mentor who inspired me

16:56

to become a professor, it was

16:58

really a special moment for me.

17:01

That's definitely special in a full

17:03

circle moment. Thank you

17:05

for sharing those two for

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and responsible gaming resources. Now,

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let's get into the

18:40

book because I really

18:42

appreciate the book. I

18:44

think anyone who needs

18:46

a starting point for

18:48

understanding policing in America

18:50

needs to read this

18:52

text. I encourage anyone

18:54

to read it. Now,

18:56

I appreciate the interludes

18:58

in which you weave

19:00

in your personal experiences

19:02

with police and policing.

19:05

I want to think about American

19:07

identity. So I

19:09

know this isn't a comparative

19:11

analysis of policing, but

19:13

if you have to think

19:15

about what makes policing

19:18

in America is distinguished, what

19:21

would it be? Very

19:24

interesting question. And

19:26

I think we can think about it in

19:28

a few different ways. And so in one

19:30

way, we can look

19:32

similarly to how we can

19:34

look at the fact that

19:36

America has one of the

19:39

highest rates of incarceration. In

19:42

fact, the highest rate

19:44

of incarceration in the entire

19:46

world. And we

19:48

incarcerate so many more times over

19:50

in terms of population -wise given

19:52

the size of a population

19:55

versus the rest of the globe.

19:59

Similarly, we can look at how

20:02

much money is spent on

20:04

policing. We can look at the

20:06

size of policing in the

20:08

context of the U .S. We

20:10

can look at the sheer amount

20:12

of interactions and we can

20:15

see that there is definitely a

20:17

policing state that exists that

20:19

is a part of a broader

20:21

prison industrial complex slash carceral

20:23

state that structures so many communities

20:25

experiences with everyday life with,

20:27

you know, everyday forms of governance.

20:31

And policing is all around us.

20:33

When we look at the

20:35

rates, the statistics, the budgets, the

20:37

funds, America really is similarly

20:39

invested in policing in a way

20:42

that is very deep and

20:44

entrenched into almost every aspect of

20:46

American society. And so we

20:48

can think about it that way,

20:50

but I also just want

20:52

to complicate the question as well,

20:54

because when We

20:56

look historically, and this is one of the

20:58

things I really wanted to tackle in that first

21:00

section, is the interesting thing

21:03

is that you can't tell

21:05

a history of policing without telling

21:07

a transnational story because so

21:09

much of the logics of policing

21:11

in the context of the

21:13

US were imported. So

21:15

we can look at contexts

21:17

like Britain where there

21:19

was the importing of police

21:21

logics, police strategies. you

21:23

know, the Metropolitan Police Department in

21:25

London and Robert Peele and how

21:27

those logics were spread and informed

21:30

the formation of police departments, particularly

21:32

in the 1800s in the US.

21:35

And we can also trace it

21:37

back. We can look at models

21:39

of slave patrols, many logics and

21:41

approaches that were imported from the

21:43

Caribbean. And we can look at

21:45

other models as well in which

21:47

early on the US had a

21:49

number of different logics. of

21:51

policing that was being imported. But

21:53

then the US started to

21:55

experiment, expand, and really start

21:57

to develop its own models

21:59

of policing. And then we

22:01

start to see in the

22:03

1900s, specifically through the Office

22:05

of Public Safety, we started

22:07

to see the US begin

22:09

to explore different kinds of

22:11

policing logic strategies, approaches,

22:13

tactics throughout the entire world.

22:16

And so a part of this interesting

22:18

thing is that a part of

22:20

the reason why we can see parallels

22:22

as well, of course there's differences

22:25

across different geographic content, but we can

22:27

also see certain parallels because you

22:29

have things like the International Association of

22:31

Chiefs of Police and you have

22:33

these other kinds of bodies and you

22:35

have things like office public safety

22:37

that emerges in the 1900s that start

22:39

to try to coach here different

22:41

kinds of models that have similar kinds

22:43

of principles and logic. And

22:45

so it's very interesting, because in many

22:47

ways, of course, the US is a standout

22:50

when we think about incarceration rates, when

22:52

we think about policing, police budgets, police personnel.

22:55

But in other ways, we can

22:57

also see many parallels. And the

22:59

reason why there's so many parallels

23:01

is because insofar as policing

23:03

emerges early on as a form

23:05

of race class control and really

23:07

plainly as a colonial tool for

23:09

managing oppressed populations, we

23:12

can see how those logics also

23:14

trends and borders and we can

23:16

see how there are a number

23:18

of different contexts throughout the globe

23:20

where we can see these kinds

23:22

of parallels because there's this importing

23:24

and exporting that has been happening

23:26

since the onset of policing in

23:28

early colonial days. So

23:31

how central is slave

23:33

patrols in the creation

23:35

or the origins of

23:38

policing? Yeah, so

23:40

slave patrols are definitely a

23:42

central aspect of the story

23:44

around history of policing. They

23:47

were one of the first

23:49

models of publicly sort of

23:51

funded and resourced policing approaches.

23:53

And so they're definitely central.

23:56

We see them early on and

23:58

they serve as an important

24:00

foundation for policing that would come

24:02

to be across the nation

24:04

in the decades and centuries to

24:06

come. But... There

24:08

are also other models that

24:11

don't necessarily specifically evolve from

24:13

slave patrols, but a part

24:15

of the core logics and

24:17

the core functions is as

24:19

a tool of race class

24:21

control. And so when

24:23

we look at Texas Rangers,

24:25

for example, and indigenous dispossession, or

24:28

if we look at the

24:30

labor suppression and union organizing suppression

24:32

and the role that policing

24:34

was involved in the North as

24:36

well, When we see

24:38

anti -immigration enforcement and where we

24:40

can look across from 1600s, 1700s,

24:43

1800s, onward, we can see

24:45

that race -class control and all

24:47

of the ways that it emerges

24:49

was really a core function

24:51

and aspect of the development of

24:53

policing as we know it.

24:55

Slave patrols are definitely an aspect

24:57

of it, but there are

25:00

also other points of origin that

25:02

we can look to. historically

25:04

that are also that help us

25:06

fill out a sort of

25:08

a more cohesive and comprehensive picture

25:10

of the origins of policing

25:12

as we know it now within

25:14

the consciousness of the U .S.

25:18

You know, we all

25:20

think about 911 as

25:22

a national emergency response

25:24

number, but the origins

25:26

for that crisis response

25:29

number actually is not

25:31

benevolent as we might

25:33

think about it or

25:35

altruistic, maybe, that it

25:37

came about for a

25:39

very specific reason, trade

25:41

in 1968. Can you

25:43

tell our listeners a little bit about it?

25:46

For sure. Yeah, so

25:48

it's a very fascinating

25:50

and unfortunate history. In

25:52

the context of 9 -1

25:55

-1, it really emerged

25:57

as out of this

25:59

racist history and specifically

26:01

as a form of

26:03

repression of resistance and

26:05

dissent to racist oppression. And

26:08

so a part of non -unwarning

26:10

was strategized as a way,

26:12

essentially, to avoid mass mobilizations, uprisings,

26:15

resistance. And it

26:17

was developed as a tool in

26:19

other countries as a form of counterinsurgency.

26:21

And it was essentially

26:23

recommended within a

26:26

supplementary report, specifically

26:28

the Kerner Commission Report,

26:30

which investigated urban

26:32

uprisings. And it essentially

26:34

said, have a number that

26:36

people can call so that if

26:38

there is a mounting sort

26:40

of movement happening or some form

26:42

of descent, it can be

26:44

more immediately sort of quelled and

26:47

repressed. And that

26:49

was a key part of

26:51

the of the logics of

26:53

the formation 901. And then

26:55

even when we see The

26:57

onset of it, the first

27:00

ceremonial call featured a sheriff

27:02

that is well known as

27:04

being racist, Bull Connor, as

27:06

a part of the ceremonial

27:08

first call. And he's pictured

27:11

as a part of making

27:13

the first 9 -1 -1 launch

27:15

call. And so we see

27:17

that. It seems like it's

27:19

just this neutral number. for

27:21

folks to call in Al, but

27:24

what we see is there's literally a

27:26

photograph of Eugene Bull Connor, and

27:28

he was at the time the director of the

27:30

Alabama Public Service Commission. Connor

27:33

spent his life, his career, really

27:35

involved in white supremacist violence,

27:37

specifically against civil rights organizations,

27:40

and he was a part of this ceremonial

27:42

call. He was a part of this first

27:44

launch onset. ceremony of not one

27:46

other number. So we see this very different

27:48

history once we look into the archives

27:50

and look into the history. And

27:53

even at the time, there was

27:55

conversation at the time with a national

27:57

fire, you know, fighting agency, and

28:00

other entities essentially over like

28:02

how would emergency response be managed.

28:04

And so it seems like

28:06

it's just this takeoff for granted

28:08

way, but it actually has

28:10

this very, very, very deep history

28:12

that's steeped. within racist individuals

28:14

and literally as a way of

28:16

trying to understand and think

28:18

about how to repress resistance to

28:20

state violence that is structured

28:22

along racial logics. And so, yeah,

28:24

you know, the history of

28:26

novel one, it really tells a

28:28

lot. And a part of

28:30

what I think that history tells

28:32

us is not all one

28:34

is a relatively recent invention. And

28:37

it wasn't the only pathway that

28:39

society could have went down is the

28:41

way that ended up becoming the

28:43

pathway. But it also means that insofar

28:45

as that was human made and

28:47

is relatively novel, is that we can

28:50

have other pathways as well. Which

28:53

leads me to thinking

28:55

about one of the

28:57

underlying themes of the

28:59

book is the notion

29:01

of safety. You

29:03

write, it's a human

29:05

desire to have safety.

29:08

So when you pose the question, What

29:11

does safety mean to you?

29:13

Some might say it might

29:15

mean a reduction of police

29:18

violence. Others might say

29:20

more police. And

29:22

to think about the notion

29:24

of safety and to place that

29:26

onto police, we often

29:28

hear the institution of

29:30

policing and the police state

29:33

is that they are

29:35

institutions to protect and serve.

29:38

protecting those who

29:40

aren't racialized. And

29:43

you underscore that in the

29:45

book very well. What

29:47

if we reframe it

29:49

to say that police are

29:52

institutions to serve and

29:54

to make a safer society?

29:57

How can we reconceptualize

29:59

safety where we can

30:01

all agree on what

30:03

safety looks like? That's

30:07

definitely a layered question. So,

30:09

you know, one, I think we

30:11

need to have different kinds of

30:13

grammar and language for how safety

30:16

is even understood. As we understand

30:18

it right now, just in mainstream

30:20

ways, the

30:22

framework of safety is

30:24

typically discussed and

30:26

theorized through a framework

30:29

around crime. And

30:31

crime is a social and historical construct,

30:33

which is why there are many things

30:35

that have been in criminal codes, which are

30:38

no longer in criminal codes. There are

30:40

things that are criminalized that are not

30:42

harmful and there are things that are harmful

30:44

that are not criminalized. And

30:46

crime is really, you know,

30:49

a political and social construct. And

30:51

so we even start to

30:53

see things that become crimes once

30:55

they start to become certain

30:57

behaviors and activities start to become

30:59

racialized. A part of what

31:01

is required is a reconfiguring of

31:04

how we understand safety in

31:06

general. One of the things

31:08

that I ask many people, and it's

31:10

a way to try to get at

31:12

something deeper about safety, because when we

31:14

think about safety, then certain things come

31:16

up. And I think for many people,

31:18

there are patterns of things that might

31:20

come up. One of the things that

31:22

I will often prompt people to think

31:24

through or think about or just as

31:26

an exercise is to say, think

31:28

about a time where you felt safe. Close

31:31

your eyes and try to remember

31:33

what you feel, what you saw,

31:35

what you heard, what you smelled,

31:38

how you felt. Was it warm?

31:40

Was it cold? Think

31:42

about all of

31:44

these things and hold

31:46

that experience. And

31:48

for me, that's what safety is.

31:51

Now, of course, we navigate lives in different

31:53

spaces in different ways. Whatever experience comes

31:55

up, and after... Multiple times with asking people

31:57

this many times, I've never heard anyone

31:59

say, oh, there was a time where I

32:01

was with the police or I saw

32:03

the police or when there was a whole

32:05

bunch of police around. I've

32:07

never heard that. And

32:09

so what that means is that there's

32:11

something deeper and more complicated about

32:13

safety and how we imagine how we

32:15

produce it beyond the ways that

32:17

it's often depicted by the criminal legal

32:19

system. And what that

32:22

means is also that we need

32:24

a more qualitative and complicated

32:26

way. of trying to understand what

32:28

safety actually is and what

32:30

makes people feel safe. Part

32:32

of what I'm getting at is the

32:34

reason why even when you look at

32:36

crime rates as they go up and

32:38

down, it often does not track neatly

32:40

or well to how people feel in

32:42

terms of their safety. So crime

32:44

can drop and people can still feel

32:46

very unsafe, right? And so

32:48

that means that we have to

32:50

have a more complicated and

32:52

nuanced understanding around how people understand,

32:54

perceive, conceive, and... safety

32:57

and concerns around safety.

32:59

And so one of the things that I talk

33:02

about in my dissertation is like, how

33:04

can we think about safety without

33:06

thinking about being in a housing development

33:08

where the gas is out, or

33:10

where the elevators don't work, or where

33:12

people cannot walk in and out

33:14

the building easily because there are mounds

33:16

of trash that's in front of

33:19

the building. That could easily be solved

33:21

with resources, but at the same

33:23

time, there's police that might be stationed

33:25

there constantly. It's like

33:27

this all factors into safety as

33:29

well, but because it's outside of the

33:31

criminal legal system, it

33:33

becomes illegible. And so I

33:35

really think we need to

33:37

just tease out a part

33:40

of what you mentioned is

33:42

also what safety means and

33:44

really try to dig deep

33:46

around also what makes people

33:48

feel unsafe. One of the

33:50

things I think is a part of this work

33:52

of really moving beyond policing is to ask folks,

33:54

what are the things that make you feel unsafe?

33:57

I've had these moments where people in conversation with our

33:59

safety need your reactions just to say, we need

34:01

more police. And a part of what

34:03

I try to prompt one is to say, there

34:05

are so many different ways, so many different

34:07

approaches, so many different experiments, models, examples

34:09

of ways where we can

34:11

clearly see, based off of studies,

34:14

things that improve safety within the community.

34:16

And these are things like green

34:18

spaces, for example, that has been shown.

34:20

There was a study that where

34:23

there was a conversion of an abandoned

34:25

lot to a grain space and

34:27

it reduced violence within this surrounding neighborhood

34:29

or things like violence interrupters or

34:31

after school programs or employment initiatives or

34:33

organizations, a community -based organization that, you

34:35

know, focus on the needs of

34:38

a community. And we can

34:40

go down a list of so

34:42

many different kinds of approaches, both

34:44

in terms of other kinds of

34:46

community -based safety approaches, but also the

34:48

resources that can be invested in

34:50

communities that we can see have

34:53

a effect on creating safer communities

34:55

and safer conditions. And

34:57

we can see how these really

34:59

can transform communities. And

35:01

so we can look to all of those ways.

35:03

And a part of what that means and a

35:05

part of what I asked is when this comes

35:07

up is like, do you want

35:09

safety or do you just want

35:11

more police? Do

35:14

you want help? Or do you simply

35:16

just want more police? Because

35:18

if the answer is, I actually want

35:20

safety in hell, it

35:22

allows us to start from a different

35:24

starting point. The issue is

35:26

that we're socializing to the idea that the only

35:28

way that we can manage concerns around safety

35:30

is through police. And the whole point

35:32

of the book, and also why I'm an abolitionist,

35:34

I want to begin a world where there are

35:37

no police, is to say

35:39

is that there are so many different

35:41

ways that we can think about and

35:43

can see. of safety that was beyond

35:45

policing and not only that was beyond

35:47

policing but will actually be safer for

35:49

it. And so I think a

35:51

part of what it looks like is having

35:53

conversations with folks and really getting into like what

35:55

are the concerns people have around safety. The

35:57

other part is also a level

35:59

of awareness raising around all of

36:01

these other kinds of approaches and

36:03

things that can actually not only

36:06

keep us safe but create a

36:08

safer world because look how much

36:10

police and prisons exist within the

36:12

United States. Look how much punishment,

36:14

carcerality, surveillance exists within the United

36:16

States. And look how many

36:18

people have concerns around safety. Now,

36:21

if policing and

36:23

punishment equated to safety,

36:26

insofar as we live in one

36:28

of the most policed and punished

36:30

and imprisoned societies, shouldn't we also

36:32

live in one of the safest? But

36:35

if that's not true, that

36:37

goes to the first point

36:39

is that safety is more

36:41

complicated. You can't just trace

36:43

it down to policing, carcerality,

36:46

punishment, surveillance. And

36:48

what that means is that we

36:50

need a more complex way of

36:52

understanding safety. We also need a

36:54

more nuanced and cohesive way of

36:56

approaching how we keep each other

36:58

safe. Right

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to get started. So

38:01

Philip, how do we get there? As

38:03

the title of your book suggests, how

38:05

do we get to beyond

38:07

policing and have a more

38:11

robust experience of

38:14

safety. I

38:16

think there are a lot

38:18

of ways to think about

38:20

that question and you know

38:22

I'll just start with saying

38:25

I definitely think police abolition

38:27

is the way that we

38:29

get to a safer world

38:31

in part because the stronghold

38:33

that policing has as an

38:35

ideology that governs how society

38:37

organizes itself. It

38:39

not only prevents us from getting

38:41

to a society where we have

38:43

a more robust way of approaching safety

38:46

concerns, it also actively adds to

38:48

concerns of safety, right? And so

38:50

for someone who's walking on the street

38:52

and is concerned around being stopped

38:54

in first or is getting stopped

38:56

in first or someone who's being stopped

38:58

because the color of their skin

39:00

or someone who's being harassed by

39:02

the police or someone who's being murdered

39:05

or assaulted by the police. All

39:07

of these things are also concerned

39:09

around safety. But again, it typically is

39:11

framed outside of the criminal legal

39:13

depiction of crime. And so, you

39:15

know, it's both in terms of

39:17

like the indirect ways in which policing

39:19

sort of monopolizes resources, ideology, investments,

39:22

approaches in terms of like all of

39:24

the other things we could be doing.

39:26

But it's also that policing is adding

39:28

to many of the concerns that a

39:30

range of communities have. And so I

39:32

think for me, police abolition is certainly

39:34

the way abolitionist

39:36

strategies and tactics. I think

39:38

they range, and I'll discuss

39:40

many of them in the

39:42

book, but I'll default to

39:44

a mentor in the words

39:46

of Robin Kelly. It's like

39:49

study and struggle, I think

39:51

are really important for how

39:53

we get there. But I

39:55

think it's essential to engage

39:57

in both and to really

39:59

think about the question around

40:01

different kinds of strategies, especially

40:03

in a world where the

40:05

political landscape has been shifting

40:07

and changing, and it sure

40:09

has changed with the recent

40:11

election. And so I think

40:13

it will require a lot of studying, and

40:15

it will require a lot of struggling. It's

40:20

not an easy task

40:22

or battle, but

40:24

I think it is an essential

40:27

one. And in reality, we've seen

40:29

hundreds of years of policing. We've

40:31

also seen over a hundred years

40:33

of police reforms that have brought

40:35

us to a context in which

40:37

every single year the police killed

40:40

over a thousand people. They assault

40:42

many more and harass and profile

40:44

many more people. And many people

40:46

across the nation have so many

40:48

concerns around safety. And so it

40:50

just goes back to this point of like, if

40:53

it's not operating in the interest of

40:55

the vast majority of the public, why

40:57

is it just continuing on in

40:59

this way? And so that gets to

41:01

deeper questions. I think the work

41:03

of folks like Michael Siegel and violence

41:05

work and thinking about the relationship

41:08

of state and violence work and policing

41:10

is, I think, essential here. But

41:12

yeah, you know, I think it's not

41:14

easy when I think there's a

41:16

lot of strategies and I think divesting,

41:18

divest invest, which was in recent

41:20

years took on the framework around defunding

41:22

is one strategy. And I think

41:24

there are many others in terms of

41:26

reducing the size and scope of

41:28

policing and police capacity and police resources

41:30

because The reality is that the

41:33

only way to avoid and encounter police

41:35

and violence to really assure that

41:37

encounter does not happen is to avert

41:39

the encounter altogether. Any

41:41

context in which there is an interaction

41:43

between a police officer and a person

41:45

has the possibility of leading to an

41:47

incident of police violence. Historically, a lot

41:49

of what has been the focus is

41:51

reform these institutions to reduce the likelihood

41:53

of these things happening and what we

41:56

see that has not operated in that

41:58

way. And there are

42:00

so many ways, there's so much

42:02

innovation within the human experience

42:04

that we can discuss anything that

42:06

might come up and discuss

42:08

other kinds of approaches and ways

42:10

that we can imagine these

42:12

things can be managed, intervened in

42:14

and also responded with. We

42:16

can look to models like healing justice

42:18

and transformative justice and restorative justice as other

42:20

kinds of models to also help us

42:22

break from these punitive paradigms as well. Dr.

42:25

McCarrers. The last question I have for

42:27

you is not about the book, it's

42:29

about the future. Can

42:31

you tell our listeners what is

42:33

something that you are currently working on?

42:37

It's a weird question. I'm

42:39

actually working on my next

42:41

book project. It's entitled Brick

42:43

Dreams, the unfinished project of public

42:45

housing. And it's

42:47

essentially a mixture of a

42:49

social history around public

42:51

housing. as well as an

42:53

ethnographic study that I engaged in

42:55

for years around public housing, particularly

42:58

in New York City, but also

43:00

just pan outward to think about

43:02

public housing across the nation, its

43:04

history, its present realities, and its

43:06

future directions. And so I've been

43:08

working on that. And

43:10

so, you know, of course, the

43:12

book project includes elements of policing.

43:14

Public housing is one of the

43:16

most police sites and spaces. across

43:19

the nation, but seeks to tell a

43:21

broader story around public housing as it

43:23

was, as it is, and as it

43:25

can be. It's under advanced

43:27

contract. We're printing risky press. And so,

43:30

yeah, it's working on that as

43:32

well as a number of

43:34

other articles around policing, housing, land,

43:36

and a number of other

43:38

related topics. Man,

43:40

I can't wait for you to

43:42

write that book. Definitely seems

43:44

to fit in with the larger...

43:46

project of policing. You got

43:49

to come back on. I

43:51

would love to. It was very been

43:53

in conversation with the Becky Celestria reading

43:55

this space. Thank you. Thank

43:57

you so much. Dr.

44:00

Philip McHarris is an assistant professor

44:02

at the Frederick Douglas Institute

44:05

and the Department of Black Studies

44:07

at the University of Rochester. He

44:10

is the author of Beyond Policing,

44:12

which was published by Legacy Lit.

44:15

Special thanks to Tara Kennedy.

44:18

I'm your host, Dr. Nakazi Oates.

44:20

Thank you for listening.