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Conversations on

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Aloud. Today I'm delighted to welcome

1:00

John Pendergast to the show. Dr.

1:02

John Pendergast is a spiritual teacher,

1:05

retired adjunct professor of psychology

1:07

at the California Institute of Integral

1:09

Studies where he taught and supervised

1:12

master's level counseling students for 23

1:14

years, and a retired marriage and

1:16

family therapist. John studied for many

1:18

years with the European Sage, Dr.

1:20

Joan Klein, as well as with

1:23

the American spiritual teacher, Ajashante. John

1:25

is the author of In Touch,

1:27

how to tune in to the

1:29

inner guidance of your body and

1:32

trust yourself. The deep heart

1:34

are portal to presence, and most

1:36

recently, your deepest ground, a

1:38

guide to embodied spirituality.

1:41

John is also the senior editor.

1:43

in contributor to two volumes of

1:45

original essays entitled The Sacred Mirror

1:48

in Listening from the Heart of

1:50

Silence that explore the confluence of

1:52

non-dual wisdom and psychology. In this

1:55

interview, John and I explore the

1:57

depths of embodied spirituality touching on

1:59

the journey. waking up, waking

2:01

down, and waking in. John shares

2:03

his insights on authenticity, truth,

2:05

and true nature, while also

2:07

addressing the more challenging aspects

2:09

of our conditioning, terror, shame,

2:11

and doubt, which often arise

2:13

as common obstacles on the

2:15

path of healing and transformation.

2:17

John is joining me today

2:19

from his home in Northern

2:21

California, and now I will

2:23

switch over to the internet

2:25

interview. John Pendergast, nice to

2:28

be with you here today.

2:30

Welcome to the show. Thank

2:32

you so much. Yeah, lovely to

2:34

be here. Look forward to

2:37

exploring the ground, the

2:39

groundless ground, and lots

2:42

of territory with you today.

2:44

But for those listeners and

2:47

viewers, maybe you aren't

2:49

familiar with you and

2:51

your body of work,

2:53

could you share some

2:55

of your past experiences,

2:57

both as a seeker,

2:59

also a therapist, a

3:01

long-time studier of the

3:03

non-dual traditions? Is

3:06

that how much time do we?

3:08

How do I shorten this up?

3:10

Well, I would say a seeker

3:12

and a finder, too. That's

3:14

important to add. Okay, let me see if

3:16

I can, you know, boil this down, which is

3:18

really, you know, a mystery, as we know, you

3:21

know, this life is such a mystery. What

3:23

I could mention is that when I

3:25

was a boy, probably between ages of

3:27

10 and 12, or maybe 10 and 13, I

3:29

had this unusual experience when I

3:32

would fall asleep when I would fall

3:34

asleep when I would fall asleep when

3:36

I would fall asleep when I would

3:38

fall asleep when I would fall asleep

3:40

when I would fall asleep when I

3:42

would fall asleep and which was

3:44

I would go into a kind

3:47

of liminal what I

3:49

would now call a

3:51

liminal state not fully

3:53

waking not fully dreaming

3:55

and I would I

3:57

would have this image

4:00

feeling of my body becoming infinitely

4:02

large and then infinitely small and

4:04

it would just like just fluctuate

4:07

between and it was a

4:09

very blissful experience totally spontaneous and

4:11

I had no idea what it

4:14

was so this would happen frequently

4:16

when I would go to bed

4:18

and I never told anyone about

4:21

it I had no thoughts about

4:23

it I'd never read about it

4:26

and then when puberty came

4:28

it was all forgotten You know,

4:30

it was cars and girls and

4:32

baseball and, you know, typical adolescent

4:35

stuff. But I became intrigued. I

4:37

listened to a recording of Robbie

4:40

Shankar from the Monterey Pop Festival

4:42

in 1967. I'm really dating myself

4:44

here. And there is something

4:46

about that music that just struck

4:49

me so deeply. and drew me

4:51

to Indian spirituality. So when I

4:54

was a freshman in college at

4:56

the University of California, Santa Cruz,

4:58

a friend gave me the autobiography

5:01

of a yogi. And when I

5:03

read Yogananda's autobiography, there was

5:05

something very familiar about this spiritual

5:08

approach. And I read other autobiographies,

5:10

Ramakrishna's, for instance, and I began

5:12

meditation when I was 20. And

5:15

the second time I sat in

5:17

meditation, in meditation, that same sense

5:20

of expansion, returned. I had forgotten

5:22

it for like, you know,

5:24

seven or eight years and it's

5:26

like, oh right, here it is,

5:29

but now I was a 20-year-old

5:31

rather than as a 12-year-old. And

5:34

I had the feeling that I

5:36

was finding my way home at

5:38

that point. So I became a

5:41

regular meditator, I became a

5:43

team teacher. This is, I ran

5:45

a team center in my mid-20s.

5:48

did long meditation courses. Some of

5:50

them were three months long, sometimes

5:52

six months long. On some of

5:55

those I'd be meditating six or

5:57

eight hours a day doing

5:59

pranayama meditation. But when I

6:01

got off my meditation... courses, I

6:04

was anxious. Like in relationship, I

6:06

was fine by myself sitting in

6:08

meditation, but in relationship I was

6:11

anxious. So I realized that I

6:13

had work to do. You know,

6:16

there was something I needed to

6:18

address in my own psychology. And

6:20

also I wanted to make a

6:23

living and I became, I could

6:25

have moved on from my TM

6:28

background. And in her graduate school.

6:30

and a transpersonal program, the California

6:32

Institute of Intrical Studies, and began

6:35

to work on my psychology.

6:37

And so it was interesting. I

6:39

won't go into all the details,

6:42

but I left T.M. for there

6:44

was a period when I was

6:46

studying with Saty Sai Baba, a

6:49

well-known but controversial Indian teacher. And

6:51

then I had a remarkable dream

6:54

in my early 30s. in

6:56

which I was in the dream

6:58

I was in Bombay Mumbai and

7:00

there was this sage who appeared

7:03

and looked at me and his

7:05

eyes were absolutely clear and lucid

7:08

and in looking into his eyes

7:10

there was a sense of awakening

7:12

but the dream continued so

7:14

it was like a lucid dream

7:17

and he asked me to be

7:19

his translator but he did it

7:22

telepathically. It was interesting,

7:24

and this is the irony and

7:26

humor of it. I said, I

7:28

don't know how to speak your

7:31

language. How can I be your

7:33

translator? All of this is a

7:35

kind of inner communication. But he

7:38

came out of his little apartment

7:40

and he took my arm and

7:42

he said, you know, you can

7:45

spend some time with me. I

7:47

had no idea who he was,

7:49

but learned my housemate actually had

7:52

visited him. And I learned that

7:54

it was Nisargadatamaharaj and he died

7:56

a month later. But his book,

7:59

I Am That, became a real

8:01

turning point in my understanding because

8:03

before my spiritual search had been,

8:06

even though I knew that it

8:08

wasn't correct, but still out. focused

8:10

and when I read this book

8:13

I am that it was a

8:15

pivotal shift back to who is

8:17

it that's meditating who is it

8:20

that's seeking and when I read

8:22

in this book the seeker is

8:24

the sought the one it was

8:27

looking is what is being looked

8:29

for something heard it something understood

8:31

it and there was this tectonic

8:34

shift of attention back to who

8:36

is the perceiver So I began

8:38

to really sit with that question

8:41

and a few years later I

8:43

met Jean Klein who's a not

8:45

well-known Indian sage. He spent time

8:48

in, he was a European sage,

8:50

but spent time in India. And

8:52

the first time I met him

8:55

I just felt like I'd met

8:57

my teacher, my real teacher, and

8:59

I studied with Jean from 1983

9:02

to the mid-90s. Meantime I got

9:04

my doctorate in psychology and was

9:06

working in private practices therapist. And

9:09

so I had these two tracks.

9:11

One felt like healing. and one

9:13

felt like awakening and they felt

9:16

distinctive like and and so I

9:18

was pursuing both learning how to

9:20

you know how to in my

9:23

studies working with people the healing

9:25

arts but also very interested in

9:27

self-inquiry and meditation in what is

9:30

true nature who am I really

9:32

what is this that was like

9:34

a burning question and at some

9:37

point there's a confluence of those

9:39

two apparently separate tracks and questions

9:41

and I realize it's all one

9:44

thing. It's all consciousness. It's all

9:46

spirit. Formed or formless. And this

9:48

was happening around the time that

9:51

Jean-Kline retired. And I thought, well,

9:53

I don't really need another teacher.

9:55

But a few years later, I

9:58

met Adi Ashanti, and I felt

10:00

immediately that same kind of resident

10:02

presence that I did with Jean-Kline.

10:05

So I studied with him from

10:07

2001 to 2006. I'm in my

10:09

50s. kind of the time is

10:12

such a dark. Flexible, subjective experience.

10:14

So even to speak in this

10:16

biographical way, it doesn't feel entirely

10:19

accurate. But meeting with Adieu was

10:21

really picked up where Jean had

10:23

left off. And with Adieu, there

10:26

was a series of openings. That's

10:28

the finding part. The seeking had

10:30

been going on for decades. And

10:33

the finding was experientially and deeply,

10:35

oh, this which I searched for,

10:37

I really am. And that realization.

10:40

happened on different levels, first on

10:42

the level of the mind, then

10:44

the level of the heart, those

10:47

came pretty quickly. And this last

10:49

phase, which was initiated when I

10:51

was with Adiyya Shanti, has been

10:54

going on for 20 years, and

10:56

that's the opening of the ground.

10:58

So it's like the mind kind

11:01

of blossomed with this understanding, and

11:03

then the heart pretty quickly after,

11:05

and it's been a much slower

11:08

process in these kind of in

11:10

the guts, in the instinctual area.

11:12

So this is what my latest

11:15

book is about. the earlier books

11:17

about the sense of inner knowing

11:19

and touch, the deep heart, the

11:22

awakening of the heart, but this

11:24

is like the horror, this is

11:26

the ground, and this is what

11:29

the book is about, and I

11:31

think it's really been undervalued in

11:33

the spiritual tradition, it meaning the

11:36

ground, the sense of ground. So

11:38

by ground, and now I'm kind

11:40

of segueing here, I mean really

11:43

the felt sense of sense of

11:45

The felt sense of really landing

11:47

here and inhabiting our body and

11:50

inhabiting it so fully we're no

11:52

longer bound by it. It's like

11:54

going through the body all the

11:57

way. It's not an up and

11:59

out approach, which has its beauty

12:01

and its freedom. It's really, there

12:04

is that transcendent movement initially to

12:06

realize we're none of this. We're

12:08

not to find or confine anything.

12:11

But the actual living of that.

12:13

the embodiment of that, the visceral

12:15

felt sense of that awake... really

12:18

imbuing and penetrating the body is

12:20

the imminent approach and so this

12:22

is really what I've been accenting

12:25

us like what does it mean

12:27

to really land here fully in

12:30

our body in our life just

12:32

as it is and to open

12:34

to our life in a way

12:37

that's that's not passive no but

12:39

engaged in creative And yet, with

12:41

a sense of real inner freedom

12:44

and great depth. So, there you

12:46

go. Yeah, thank you so much.

12:48

Past the terror, the fear, you

12:51

know, it's interesting. T.M. was part

12:53

of your initial journey. Yoga, Maharishi

12:55

Mahash Yoga, right? He's the developer

12:58

of T.M. And that's a, he's

13:00

a teacher of yoga. I'm a

13:02

long studier of yoga actually, especially

13:05

through a non-dual lens. And in

13:07

one of the yoga sutras potentially

13:09

speaks to... even the sages and

13:12

the mistakes and the long time

13:14

yogi still have fear of death

13:16

like that terror that can still

13:19

remain because we tend to I

13:21

guess grasp you could say this

13:23

living form I don't know if

13:26

you can yeah unpack a little

13:28

bit from there like yeah how

13:30

that terror you know brainstem you

13:33

say gut for sure for Shakra

13:35

Hara Also, the brainstem really resonates

13:37

to me. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely.

13:40

Yeah, so can you unpack that

13:42

a little bit more? Yeah, let's

13:44

do that. Let's explore that, because

13:47

that's really what, that has really

13:49

been the focus of my exploration,

13:51

because I mean, I don't, maybe

13:54

you can help me with the

13:56

neurophysiology. That's not an area of

13:58

expertise of mine. Mine's more somatic.

14:01

the felt sense of contraction or

14:03

constriction, partially conscious and often unconscious,

14:05

that really impedes the letting go

14:07

process. This is really, you know,

14:09

if I were to boil down

14:11

what this book is about, it's

14:14

about really seeing the deepest levels

14:16

of resistance to letting go and

14:18

fully surrendering. And that gets

14:20

down into the basics of survival.

14:22

And there, what I've seen is

14:24

there's two interrelated levels.

14:26

One is psychological. One

14:28

is psychological. and one

14:30

is physiological. One is

14:32

our self-image and one is just,

14:35

you know, our body mind and

14:37

our fear of annihilation. And

14:39

the two are linked because we

14:41

conflate our self-image with

14:44

this particular body. And

14:46

so, and our self-image is

14:48

very important in terms of

14:50

our sense of belonging, being

14:53

accepted or not accepted by

14:55

the tribe, by the group. And

14:57

it's a very, we're very tribal.

14:59

in a deep psychological sense

15:02

because our survival depends on

15:04

it, and particularly as a

15:06

child when we're dependent on

15:08

our adult caretakers. So we're

15:11

keenly oriented to making sure

15:13

that we're not disliked

15:15

and rejected and

15:17

abandoned and helpless.

15:19

Interestingly, of course, that continues

15:22

as adults, even though it's

15:24

not completely rational. So we're

15:26

very keyed to that kind

15:28

of... psychological connection

15:30

and the fear of attack or

15:33

abandonment which threatens it. So

15:35

there's that level and that

15:37

level runs very deeply and we

15:39

know that those of us who

15:41

work, have worked, I'm now retired

15:43

or do work or have taught

15:45

in the field the fear of

15:47

abandonment or the fear of attack

15:50

particularly if there's been some

15:52

kind of trauma or neglect

15:54

or really poor attachment. or

15:56

distort the attachment runs very deeply and

15:59

is deeply embedded. in the body.

16:01

And so in depth psychological

16:03

work, very often we're working

16:05

with those child parts that

16:08

have felt, you know, very

16:10

frightened and very anxious and

16:12

afraid of annihilation, of being

16:15

engulfed and being attacked, of

16:17

abandoning, of losing control and

16:19

being overwhelmed. So that's, you

16:21

know, in depth work works

16:24

with that and helps in

16:26

terms of building resilience and

16:28

connection. inwardly. There is, however,

16:30

a deeper level to this

16:33

fear of annihilation, and it

16:35

has to do with our

16:37

identification with this particular body

16:39

mind. And so we're getting

16:42

really deep into the instinctual

16:44

level of identification. And this

16:46

is, you were alluding to

16:49

this, Leon, in terms of,

16:51

you know, what sages have

16:53

said over the years, we

16:55

can feel a lot of

16:58

freedom, a lot of openness

17:00

of the mind and the

17:02

heart. But when it really

17:04

gets down to a sense

17:07

of this one being threatened,

17:09

there's a contraction that happens.

17:11

It's a kind of freezing.

17:14

And we know when we're

17:16

under stress, this will happen.

17:18

So this has been a

17:20

very interesting unpacking, you know,

17:23

both within my own experience,

17:25

like feeling just like layers

17:27

of this subtle contraction and

17:29

resistance, beginning to loosen and

17:32

open. as there is a

17:34

deeper and deeper understanding of

17:36

true nature, of what we

17:39

really are as consciousness or

17:41

as loving awareness. But it's

17:43

for me, and I think

17:45

for most people it's a

17:48

very slow and very gradual

17:50

process, and what's happening is

17:52

an investigation and deconstruction of

17:54

what we've taken ourselves to

17:57

be as a contracted form.

17:59

And this has been our

18:01

false ground. Like we've organized

18:04

psychious... around a sense of

18:06

contraction. And as that contraction

18:08

begins to release and we

18:10

feel ourselves more and more

18:13

as openness, resistance arises. Because

18:15

it feels like we're losing

18:17

control. We're losing our boundary.

18:19

We're losing our self as

18:22

we know it. Our represented

18:24

or constructed self. But in

18:26

truth, we're opening to who

18:29

we really are. And that's

18:31

a very dynamic, very profound

18:33

process, and fear almost always

18:35

inevitably arises at some level

18:38

during this exploration. Maybe I'll

18:40

leave you some space here.

18:42

As I said to you

18:44

earlier, I love this idea

18:47

of playing jazz. The knots,

18:49

like the grantees, the bind

18:51

in fear being at that

18:54

root. Perhaps. What's coming up

18:56

for me too is a,

18:58

it's almost like a sense

19:00

of organization in the way

19:03

that it's all of both

19:05

and. The boundaries are there

19:07

and they're not there, right?

19:09

Like you have skin on

19:12

in, I have skin on

19:14

in, but we're both breathing

19:16

even though you're Northern California,

19:19

I'm Southern California, we're both

19:21

breathing in and out of

19:23

the same. airflow, right? Yeah,

19:25

we're sharing the same air,

19:28

the food, the same food,

19:30

the same sun, the same,

19:32

but even more than that,

19:34

like you're, this is the

19:37

apparent paradox, but it's really

19:39

a matter of levels. Yes,

19:41

there is differentiation, different body

19:44

minds, different personalities, different conditioning,

19:46

right? And we share something

19:48

profoundly in common. as

19:51

being itself. Not only

19:53

are we interconnected, we

19:56

are in essence the

19:58

same. being having an

20:00

individuated expression. Exactly, pure

20:02

consciousness, I mean, I,

20:04

consciousness is all there

20:06

is through my lens

20:08

of it, I mean,

20:10

right, consciousness is all

20:12

there is, but in

20:14

order for it to

20:16

show up in different

20:18

forms, in other words,

20:21

is, is that the

20:23

potentially that what appears

20:25

to a human as

20:27

a not, but it's

20:29

really, some

20:32

level of organization of pure

20:34

consciousness, but it appears to

20:36

us as a knot until

20:38

we untie it. And then

20:40

we see through it. But

20:42

then we also see the

20:44

importance of the form and

20:46

the formlessness. In other words,

20:48

you can see through the

20:50

knot, but the knot is

20:52

there. So maybe there's a

20:55

better metaphor. It's more like

20:57

a prism or something like

20:59

that. This is the metaphor

21:01

that I've come to. It's

21:03

like a prism. And the

21:05

prism has been veiled. I

21:07

tend to use a metaphor

21:09

of veiling, and the veils

21:11

are layers of confusion, layers

21:13

of conditioning, that we have

21:15

misidentified with. And as those

21:17

veils are seen and seen

21:20

through, there's more and more

21:22

transparency or translucency to be

21:24

more precise in the system

21:26

through which the light of

21:28

pure consciousness of loving awareness

21:30

can shine. And so the

21:32

structures, I think it's a

21:34

matter of translucency. of unveiling

21:36

confusion and allowing the primal

21:38

light of loving awareness to

21:40

shine through and refract in

21:43

particular forms. That's going to

21:45

be different for you and

21:47

me and everyone else in

21:49

terms of the essential qualities

21:51

and archetypes that get activated

21:53

as we open to an

21:55

essential life. and this kind

21:57

of intermediary level, you know.

21:59

that we're talking about here,

22:02

how the light of awareness manifests

22:05

in a particular way, or

22:07

how it obscures itself, is

22:09

very, very interesting, because

22:12

it's not just about, you

22:14

know, leaving here and entering

22:16

the ocean of awareness. It's

22:18

about knowing oneself as this

22:20

ocean of awareness and living

22:23

it in a way that's

22:25

authentic, in a way that's attuned,

22:27

in a way that's creative.

22:29

Right? And that is, there's a

22:31

quality of aliveness here. Not

22:34

just freedom, freedom is very

22:36

important, that sense of

22:39

being unbounded, you know, and

22:41

unconstrained by these limited identities,

22:43

but there's another aspect here

22:46

of aliveness, of really living

22:48

this here in our ordinary

22:50

life, which is the embodiment

22:53

piece. Yes, and I know

22:55

Kashmir Shavism, I think, is also

22:57

one of the disciplines that you've

22:59

studied. I think they have a

23:01

term spanda, which might be speaking

23:03

to what you're talking about there,

23:06

right? It's like, it's an energy

23:08

and information flow, but it's this

23:10

pulsation that has the energy and

23:12

information flow. And that's right. Yeah,

23:14

the opening is. Touch into awaken

23:16

to that pulsation and then

23:18

allow it to be lived

23:21

on what you're talking about

23:23

like all these different levels

23:25

perhaps Yeah, so you know

23:27

I tend not to go

23:29

to Sanskrit terminology just you know

23:31

as I but that's true I mean

23:33

Nandul Shiva Tantra or Kashmir

23:36

Shavism as it's more

23:38

commonly known does have

23:40

this beautiful teaching about

23:42

spanda about this pulse, this

23:44

primal pulse, vibratory pulse of

23:46

life. And what's very interesting

23:49

in my own experience and

23:51

my work with people who

23:53

go deeply into this is

23:55

that as you alluded to the

23:57

root chakra earlier, this energy...

24:00

center at the base of

24:02

the spine. And it's very

24:04

related, I find, to the fear

24:06

of annihilation. So as we learn

24:08

to first of all recognize the

24:11

kind of constrictions that we

24:13

hold in the solar plexus

24:15

and lower belly and base

24:17

of the spine, particularly the

24:19

base of the spine, and

24:21

trying to control and trying to

24:23

survive, and as we begin

24:25

to allow that within loving

24:27

awareness or presence, a natural

24:29

unfolding, will begin to happen.

24:31

Usually it's gradual, I find. Occasionally

24:34

it may be rapid, but that

24:36

seems to be more rare. And

24:38

in that unfolding, there's a release

24:41

of that primal contraction or clench.

24:43

It's a kind of melting.

24:45

There's a quality of warm,

24:47

there's a quality of natural

24:49

integration of unfolding and a

24:51

sense of attention dropping down

24:53

like there's a settling. down not

24:56

only into the body but

24:58

into an underground space. And

25:00

it feels like the underground

25:02

space starts opening more and

25:04

more. And you know, whereas before

25:06

we felt localized just in this

25:09

body and kind of in contact

25:11

with the earth, that sense of

25:13

intimacy with the earth deepens. And

25:16

of course this is kind

25:18

of an intermediary but very

25:20

deep level that shamanic traditions

25:22

and vision quest and plant

25:24

medicine. and powerful dreams and

25:26

union analysis at its best, you

25:28

know, will evoke at times

25:30

and will open to. And

25:32

that there are strong energies

25:34

that are in those archetypal

25:36

and transpersonal energies which are easy

25:39

to fixate, you know, upon. But

25:41

there's a deeper level still. And

25:44

so as this relaxation happens, you

25:46

know, as the clench... releases as

25:48

this frees melt. These are

25:50

all different and a metaphor

25:52

is to describe a

25:54

spontaneous letting

25:56

go process, we

25:58

find ourselves opening

26:01

more and

26:03

more into a

26:05

vast underground

26:07

sense of spacious

26:09

awareness. And

26:11

there's a sense of deep silence

26:15

and stillness

26:18

and darkness. And

26:24

as the body mind acclimates

26:26

to this, as there's a

26:28

sense of opening and surrendering

26:30

to being nothing, to being

26:32

no one, to not knowing,

26:34

like this is so much

26:36

before any kind of thought,

26:41

in that silence and

26:43

in that darkness,

26:45

there's an upwelling of

26:47

life, an upwelling

26:49

of light. And

26:52

this is the

26:54

Spanda, this is the

26:56

profound primal vibration

26:59

of life that is

27:01

deeply intimate, but

27:03

not personal. We

27:07

often confuse, conflate

27:09

those two terms.

27:12

So deeply intimate because it feels like it's from

27:14

the very core of our being. And

27:17

the intuitive sense is,

27:19

this is true for everything

27:21

and everyone. So that's

27:23

the intimacy. And yet it's

27:25

non -egoic. It doesn't refer

27:28

to or belong to

27:30

anyone. And has

27:32

this, I refer to it as

27:34

a current of life. And

27:36

this pulse is life -giving in

27:38

the deepest sense and creative as

27:41

well. And so as there

27:43

is a letting go, as there

27:45

is an opening to our

27:47

deepest ground, as

27:49

this surrender into

27:51

darkness and stillness and

27:54

silence deepens, there

27:56

is a natural movement

27:58

of life, of

28:00

an essential life that wells

28:02

up from the depths of

28:04

our being and spills out

28:07

into our ordinary life

28:09

of relationship of work

28:11

of our sense of the

28:14

world being intimate rather

28:16

than other this whole

28:18

perceiver perceived you know

28:20

subject object just

28:23

gets softer and softer

28:25

the boundary even as

28:27

We know we have a sense

28:29

of autonomy. That is to say there's

28:32

an inner authority, an

28:34

inner guidance system that moves

28:36

us in a unique and

28:39

authentic way. So it's very

28:41

different than merging. You know

28:43

it's very different than I

28:45

become like you, the personality.

28:48

And it's very interesting

28:51

in relationship then that

28:53

we don't need that in our

28:55

meeting. We meet. like in the

28:58

core of being, in shared being,

29:00

not merging on the level of,

29:02

you know, the same thoughts

29:04

and the same feelings, but

29:07

really intuitively the shared essence.

29:09

And this is love. This is

29:11

what love is all about. So

29:13

this opening, this deep opening

29:15

and surrender and letting

29:18

go is foundational for

29:20

supporting the shining of the

29:22

heart, the shining of heart

29:24

wisdom. And this is really

29:26

why I've been accenting it,

29:28

because I've done a lot

29:31

of work on the heart

29:33

and it's a fascinating area.

29:35

There are these similar layers

29:37

of, you know, egoic conditioning

29:39

and more soulful levels

29:41

and then, you know,

29:43

just universal love. But to

29:46

really live with a steadily

29:48

open heart really available

29:50

to life requires a

29:52

sense of profound safety. And

29:54

that safety is not coming from

29:57

controlling or clenching. It's coming

29:59

from the... direct realization, intuition of

30:01

what we are and what we

30:03

share. And so the more that

30:05

we open to that, the less

30:08

fearful we become. You know, as

30:10

we face our fear, we find

30:12

our ground. And, and, you know,

30:14

there's a beautiful little saying attributed

30:16

to Trimpa, you know, Chugium Trimpa,

30:19

which is, you know, the bad

30:21

news is there is no parachute.

30:23

Good news is there is no

30:25

ground. I've never heard that. That's

30:27

good. So it's like, you know,

30:30

in that trusting of the opening,

30:32

we realize there's no danger in,

30:34

you know, hitting the bottom, you

30:36

know, like a falling object. In

30:39

fact, the metaphor is a little

30:41

misleading because the realization is, oh,

30:43

I am this, and we all

30:45

are, you know, as well. I'm

30:47

sorry. I've been rattling on here

30:50

for a while. No, so it's

30:52

deliciously. Because the lover and the

30:54

beloved is really what was evoked

30:56

for me as you're speaking. It's

30:58

like we tend again to focus

31:01

on what's in front of our

31:03

eyes and as we do this

31:05

retrieval of all of our projections

31:07

and untie these knots, we realize

31:09

that the lover and the lover

31:12

and the beloved and the beloved

31:14

and the beloved and the beloved

31:16

and the beloved and the beloved

31:18

and the beloved and the beloved

31:21

and the beloved and the belovedove

31:23

beloved and the beloved and the

31:25

beloved and the beloved and the

31:27

beloved and the beloved and the

31:29

beloved and the beloved and the

31:32

beloved and the beloved and the

31:34

beloved and the beloved and the

31:36

beloved and the beloved and the

31:38

beloved and the beloved and the

31:40

beloved and the beloved and the

31:43

beloved and the beloved and the

31:45

beloved and the beloved and the

31:47

beloved and the beloved and the

31:49

beloved and the beloved and the

31:51

beloved and the beloved and the

31:54

beloved and the beloved and the

31:56

beloved and the beloved and the

31:58

beloved and the beloved and the

32:00

beloved and the beloved and the

32:02

beloved and right here inside of

32:05

our own hearts, right? It reminds

32:07

me actually of the Ramayana and

32:09

Honaman there with Ram and Sita.

32:11

That's right. That's right. That's it.

32:14

Exactly. Yeah. The language of lover

32:16

and beloved is very resonant for

32:18

me. Sometimes in non-dual traditions you'll

32:20

see a kind of devaluation of

32:22

the devotional approach. They'll say there's

32:25

not too, so how can there

32:27

be a beloved? But I think

32:29

that way of seeing lacks heart

32:31

because when the heart awakens, there

32:33

is so much love, there is

32:36

so much gratitude, so much. compassion

32:38

and just a natural sense of

32:40

devotion. Now that devotion may be

32:42

directed towards you know an individual

32:44

ones teacher for instance or maybe

32:47

you know if you're a Christian

32:49

it might be Jesus and and

32:51

it's very interesting I my temperament

32:53

is a kind of a mixture

32:55

of wisdom and devotion you know

32:58

and and Now the devotion is

33:00

to this that I speak of,

33:02

you know, the truth of who

33:04

we are, like that's the beloved,

33:07

you know, and that beloved is

33:09

not separate, and yet to speak

33:11

of it as the beloved feels

33:13

resonant from a heart from a

33:15

heart level. And very much it's

33:18

about, as you say, it's the

33:20

retrieval of projection, the withdrawal of

33:22

projection of essential quality of being

33:24

and our shadows as well. you

33:26

know, our luminous and dark shadows,

33:29

onto the other, the recognition, it's

33:31

all here. And then from that,

33:33

instead of coming from lack in

33:35

relationship, we come from a sense

33:37

of fullness. We're not grasping, we're

33:40

not manipulating, there's a free offering

33:42

of love and of understanding. And

33:44

to me, that's really beautiful, that's

33:46

really the full potential of relationship

33:49

is to come. from that fullness.

33:51

Yeah, and again I do think

33:53

with the non-dual traditions we can

33:55

get tripped up with words, you

33:57

know, what could be relating if

34:00

there aren't two things, but the

34:02

fact of the matter is this

34:04

shows up as a multiplicity. It

34:06

does. Yeah, and multi-dimensionality. Yeah, absolutely.

34:08

And you've used some terms like

34:11

authenticity. I think you might have

34:13

said alignment, but... If I didn't,

34:15

I would. And you know, truth.

34:17

I can't remember which book it

34:19

was in or maybe which talk

34:22

I listened to of yours, but

34:24

you do emphasize, you know, truth

34:26

is this very important factor in

34:28

the process of discovering our deepest

34:30

ground. And in a world where

34:33

even the world with a word

34:35

truth has become... I mean, it's

34:37

almost like we don't even have

34:39

shared words with shared meaning at

34:42

this current moment. Whereas before, we

34:44

did have agreement. Well, for all

34:46

of those of us, I guess

34:48

who aren't color blind, but this

34:50

is going to be red. And

34:53

when we talk about it, it's

34:55

going to be red. And today,

34:57

it seems like a lot of

34:59

our words are... no longer coherent

35:01

in that sense. I could call

35:04

this blue and if I keep

35:06

telling you what's going to be

35:08

blue, then it's going to flip

35:10

into blue. And that can be

35:12

very confusing for this process that

35:15

we're talking about of alignment and

35:17

awakening. So I'm wondering if you

35:19

could share that importance as the

35:21

deepest ground is the love of

35:23

truth. And the truth that isn't

35:26

obscured by our conditioning and our

35:28

fear, the truth that arises because

35:30

of essence, essay, right, to be,

35:32

because of being. Could you share?

35:35

Yeah, no, it's a very important

35:37

subject. And I used to shy

35:39

away from, I was even, I

35:41

would say, more than shy away

35:43

allergic to the word truth, because

35:46

it's so misused, you know, by

35:48

religious and political idealogues. And not

35:50

to mention, you know, the kind

35:52

of epistemic crisis we're in now

35:54

in terms of not only a

35:57

lack of shared narrative, but a

35:59

lack of shared understanding agreement on

36:01

what a fact is. Okay. So

36:03

when we're speaking of truth, when

36:05

I'm speaking of truth, it's not

36:08

about a conceptual system, it's not

36:10

an ideology, it can't actually be

36:12

defined or confined by thought at

36:14

all. It's actually what is prior

36:17

to thought. And so we use

36:19

words to point to it, right,

36:21

like the ground of being or

36:23

the groundless ground or the heart

36:25

of awareness. or true nature. True

36:28

nature, I like this formulation because

36:30

there's something about the naturalness of

36:32

it as well. But I think

36:34

in my own process I got

36:36

over as I as there was

36:39

a deepening understanding and intimacy of

36:41

this which we speak of that

36:43

aversion to using the word truth

36:45

began to fall away because I

36:47

could once I could bracket it

36:50

in the way that I'm doing

36:52

now, it was actually resonant with

36:54

my experience. which is like when

36:56

everything else falls away, this is

36:58

here, right? And so there's a

37:01

sense of alignment, you know, that

37:03

you were alluding to. And this

37:05

is where our felt sense can

37:07

be a real ally, where we

37:10

can kind of bracket the mind

37:12

and understand both its value and

37:14

its power, but also its limitations.

37:16

And realize that there's a more

37:18

direct and intuitive way of knowing,

37:21

too, that comes from true nature.

37:23

We could call it, I like

37:25

to call it, heart wisdom. There's

37:27

a blending of wisdom and love

37:29

that has a quality of spontaneity

37:32

to it, a quality of freshness

37:34

to it, a quality of innocence

37:36

to it, that does not assert

37:38

or deny itself. This is one

37:40

of the aphorisms that I learned

37:43

when I was with Jean Klein,

37:45

but our true nature neither asserts

37:47

nor denies it soft. So if

37:49

that's what the mind does, right?

37:51

That is good. Good. Because I

37:54

want to come back to that

37:56

when we start to talk about

37:58

trauma and how we can get

38:00

lost in that spiral. Yes. Because

38:03

it's not asserting itself. Like the

38:05

conditioning can come up simply because

38:07

of what you just said. Yeah.

38:09

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it's

38:11

the mind that's asserting. And so

38:14

if we find ourselves in a

38:16

position of asserting a so-called truth,

38:18

we know the mind is at

38:20

work. And we can relax. We

38:22

can take a deep breath. That's

38:25

not it, because the truth of

38:27

who we are speaks in a

38:29

very subtle and quiet voice, you

38:31

know, it's this small still voice

38:33

within. And it generally just guides

38:36

as to what the next step

38:38

is, you know, and it's not

38:40

attached to results. So there are

38:42

all these kind of clues, you

38:45

know, of discerning, you know, what

38:47

the, what, what, what, what, what,

38:49

what, what, what, what, what, what,

38:51

what, what, what, what, what, what,

38:53

what, what, what, what, what, what,

38:56

what, what, what, what, what, what,

38:58

what, what, what, what, what, And

39:00

we know what is authentic is

39:02

non-separative too. In other words, it

39:04

doesn't create division. Right, it's non-violent.

39:07

That would go to the yamas

39:09

of potential, non-violence, truth, non-stealing, walking

39:11

in the awareness of the highest

39:13

reality, non-greed. I mean, it just,

39:15

boom, lays it out in the

39:18

foundation right there. Yeah, beautiful. And

39:20

like you used to have an

39:22

aversion to truth, I actually used

39:24

to... query the term pure after

39:26

I was working with a lot

39:29

of clients because they would be

39:31

like oh pure you know because

39:33

of religious baggage yeah but because

39:35

it sits inside itself is why

39:38

it's pure because there's no other

39:40

thing to come from outside into

39:42

it and I would say the

39:44

same of truth it's true because

39:46

there's no other thing to impinge

39:49

on it it arises Well, yeah,

39:51

that's the best I could say

39:53

to it. It's a citizen's side

39:55

itself. Yeah, yeah, that's that's that's

39:57

nice, you know, as you say,

40:00

you know, the word essential refers

40:02

to being essay, right? And I

40:04

find myself drawn, the language is

40:06

important, it's important to

40:08

be flexible with it,

40:10

and I find, I'm drawn to the

40:13

word wholeness, like some people are

40:15

drawn to like perfection, but that so

40:17

often has a kind of, you

40:19

know, standards of which we're judging,

40:21

doesn't have to. But for me,

40:23

what's been really resonant as

40:26

wholeneness or compleeness or completeness.

40:28

which is on a non-mental

40:30

level, but to speak of

40:33

it as essential nature or

40:35

as true nature, one can

40:37

speak of purity, that's beautiful,

40:39

or innocence also. And where this,

40:42

you're interested in

40:44

going to, in talking about

40:46

trauma and conditioning, which I

40:48

think is very important, because

40:50

in this path of opening,

40:53

we inevitably uncover our conditioning.

40:55

and some of which is

40:57

very difficult and you know

41:00

as a result we've you

41:02

know split it off and

41:05

compartmentalized it and so being

41:07

able to receive the

41:09

conditioning in a way that

41:11

doesn't where we don't go into

41:13

that vortex you know where

41:16

we don't get pulled under you

41:18

know into the old pattern

41:20

is very important and

41:23

one of the things I found

41:25

is, and as you know, having

41:27

looked at my work, is the

41:29

importance of presence. Evoking, as

41:32

much as invoking, evoking, as

41:34

much as possible, a sense of

41:36

spacious, present, open

41:38

awareness. It's different than

41:40

present-centered attention,

41:43

or mindfulness, as

41:45

it's conventionly understood,

41:47

as it's conventionly-centered,

41:50

non-judgmental attention. This

41:52

is like a step

41:54

further. in terms of just as

41:57

the apparent perceiver, opening

41:59

to a back. around open awareness,

42:01

that actually is able to

42:04

receive whatever difficult

42:06

experience there is in the

42:08

system that is arising within

42:10

us. And the beauty of that

42:13

is it allows without an

42:15

agenda to fix or change

42:17

our experience, receiving that

42:19

conditioned experience,

42:21

the not, if you will, in

42:23

openness, allowing both to be here,

42:26

allows for a natural unfolding

42:28

of that. And what's interesting

42:31

is like right in the center

42:33

of that knot is the purity.

42:35

Right in the center of that

42:38

shadow is the light. Right in the

42:40

center of that shame is

42:42

innocence. Right in the sense

42:44

of fragmentation is

42:46

homeless. And this is like, this

42:49

is revelatory for a person

42:51

who experiences. It's like an,

42:53

oh my God, I thought

42:55

I was wounded in my core.

42:58

I thought I was I thought I was

43:00

limited and none of that is

43:02

true. But actually by opening, you know,

43:04

not going around or trying to

43:07

get away from or transcend,

43:09

but from awareness welcoming this

43:11

in, this knot of attention

43:13

reveals itself. The essential

43:15

qualities of being revealed itself

43:18

in the way that I'm just

43:20

describing. So there's a beauty in

43:22

working with trauma or any

43:24

kind of difficult conditioning so

43:26

that we don't get lost

43:28

in it. And this is the principle

43:30

of resourcing that, you know, we're

43:32

familiar with. It's like, you know, otherwise

43:35

we retromatize the system. So it's, and

43:37

there's a relational aspect to it,

43:39

to feel like you're connected with

43:41

someone else who's holding that with

43:43

you and supporting that, can and often

43:46

is critically important. That

43:48

could be the big benefit

43:50

of a therapeutic relationship for

43:52

sure. Because, you know, as

43:55

you're saying, and I'm also

43:57

viscerally feeling, you know, that

43:59

disorganization... And when

44:01

that conditioning is

44:03

up to be seen,

44:06

if you will, and

44:08

you're getting closer, even

44:11

perhaps, to seeing through

44:13

it or having it

44:15

unravel, it can't be

44:18

quite intense. These are

44:20

the words that come

44:22

up for me, shame

44:25

for sure, disorganization, I'm

44:27

terrified. Yeah. Absolutely, the

44:29

therapeutic relationship, learning tools, breathwork,

44:32

any other key pointers you

44:34

could give to anybody who's

44:36

watching or listening. Because I

44:39

do think that's a, look,

44:41

every step is a beautiful

44:43

step when we're walking the

44:46

path of, I think Ajashanti says,

44:48

love returning to itself.

44:50

Like when we're walking the

44:52

path of, I think Ajashanti

44:54

says love returning to itself.

44:56

Like when we're walking. walking

44:58

that path of love returning

45:00

to itself. Every step is

45:02

really a beautiful step. But

45:04

some of them feel a

45:06

little bit more treacherous than

45:08

others. So yes, is there

45:10

anything to share here around

45:12

perhaps? particular tools that

45:14

you like or guidance because

45:16

we know what's on the

45:19

other side of that knot

45:21

or what's in that knot

45:23

but when you're actually sematically

45:25

feeling that sense of I'm

45:27

going to break apart again

45:29

that intensity can get

45:31

you're gonna go grab the

45:34

glass of alcohol or you're

45:36

gonna do something grab the

45:38

chocolate whatever it is to

45:40

Yeah, move away from the

45:42

next breath that actually brings

45:45

you into the presence of

45:47

holding. Because that's, we want

45:49

to get to, would you say, the

45:51

other side of it, the place where

45:53

I, I'm here and I'm holding

45:55

space for it. Not sure how you

45:58

would articulate that. Well,

46:01

you actually mentioned a couple

46:03

of elements, you know, in

46:05

your question, like very often

46:07

the answers in the question,

46:09

right? So, there is when

46:11

we're dealing with trauma, a

46:13

very important relational piece, which

46:15

is the feeling, because very often

46:17

in the initial trauma, the feeling

46:19

was, I'm all alone with this,

46:21

and there's no one to, you know,

46:23

be with me, and no one to understand.

46:26

So the sense of aloneness.

46:28

It was very, very,

46:31

very difficult. Some of

46:33

the hardest parts of

46:35

it is the aloneness.

46:37

So the actual, if

46:40

we're, if we're sitting

46:42

with someone else, and

46:44

now I'm speaking kind

46:46

of in the role as the

46:48

healer or therapist or

46:51

maybe it's counselor of

46:53

some kind of in that.

46:56

with exactly what you

46:58

said, Leanne, which is knowing

47:00

what's on the other side. So

47:02

there's a support, there's

47:05

a normalization, there's a

47:07

sense of, we can do this, this

47:09

is doable. And I think

47:11

of it and feel it often

47:14

as entering into a health state

47:16

with someone else, where they

47:18

have never been met before.

47:21

And the very fact, because

47:23

it's a very alone.

47:25

very isolated compartmentalized space

47:28

and actually to feel another

47:30

there with you is profound you

47:32

know to feel like oh connection is

47:34

there and that allows the other

47:37

to connect with them so that's

47:39

a subtle and very important relational

47:41

piece of course there are a

47:44

lot of therapeutic methods for

47:46

resourcing and and we don't

47:48

need to discuss them you

47:50

talked about breath that's important

47:52

being in nature you know opening eyes

47:55

if you feel like it's too much.

47:57

The part that maybe I would address

47:59

here Yeah, there's so many

48:01

different methods. I don't have

48:04

to get into them. But

48:06

when I work a lot with, I'll

48:08

say that, and the way I

48:10

work with it is probably would

48:12

be of interest to

48:14

your listeners and your

48:17

viewers. And that's being

48:19

able to actually identify

48:21

the core limiting belief

48:23

that goes with a sense of

48:25

disorganization. And

48:27

very often there's a sense

48:29

of, you know, I'm not equipped, the

48:32

world is dangerous and hostile,

48:34

it's too much, or some sense of

48:36

lack or flaw of oneself, so that

48:38

we're not in touch with our

48:40

inner resources. We're not in touch

48:42

with the source, actually, because of

48:44

that contraction. So I do work

48:46

when I work with people, as

48:49

I said, I'm retired, but I

48:51

continue to mentoring, we're spiritual mentoring

48:53

work with people. I do like

48:55

to work with the body and

48:57

to kind of feel where in

48:59

the body the sense of disturbance

49:02

maybe where the sense

49:04

of contraction is and invite

49:06

people to from spacious awareness welcome

49:08

it as in the way that

49:10

I was describing maybe

49:12

breathe into it as a kind

49:15

of anchoring and then an interesting

49:17

inquiry can be what's in

49:19

the very center of this? Don't

49:21

think about it. No effort. What's

49:24

in the very center? of this.

49:26

And that inquiry, that

49:28

invitation, actually tends

49:31

to elicit subler

49:33

levels of whatever

49:35

this contraction is. And

49:38

of course that can be done

49:40

in a titrated way. If

49:42

it feels too much, we

49:45

back off. Always permission. You're

49:47

in charge here. Let me know

49:49

if this feels like too much.

49:52

But if we as the helper

49:54

feel open and well-resourced,

49:57

you know, we can significantly...

50:00

they facilitate and guide

50:02

and support this process.

50:04

What's in the very center of

50:06

it? And if that remains

50:08

kind of stuck, very often

50:11

there is a belief, usually

50:13

largely unconscious, maybe

50:15

partially aware, that is kind

50:18

of keeping the system jammed

50:20

because it's not been investigated.

50:23

And that may be, you know, if

50:26

I open, I'll die, you know, or it's

50:28

too much or whatever. So

50:30

very often in a child's simple

50:32

language, you know, because

50:35

that's when these imprints

50:37

are strongest, sometimes in

50:39

adolescents, mostly in childhood, I'll

50:42

ask people, just in a, you know,

50:44

in a child's way, in a very

50:46

simple way, five words or fewer

50:48

in a child's language, what is

50:50

there belief that goes with this?

50:53

Just notice what comes to you

50:55

spontaneously. almost always something

50:58

will come and there's a kind

51:00

of does that good is that

51:02

quite right you know a resonance

51:04

in or in a way of

51:06

dissonance because there's a you know

51:08

a strong negative charge somatically

51:10

and emotionally with and then once

51:13

it feels like it's there I'll say

51:15

let it go just take a deep breath

51:17

rest back as open awareness

51:19

and I'll take a minute you know

51:21

that's kind of a resourcing

51:23

step but also an invocation

51:26

in a way of some degree of

51:28

true nature. So rather than

51:30

just going into it, there's

51:32

like, okay, we step back

51:34

and now welcome this in

51:37

and ask yourself, what's your

51:39

deepest knowing about this?

51:41

Don't go to your mind for

51:43

an answer. It may arise as

51:46

a feeling, a sensation, as an

51:48

image, maybe a word, or as

51:50

wordless knowing. What's

51:53

your deepest knowing? What's the truth? Back

51:56

to the truth word. You know, what's

51:58

the truth? Don't think about it. In

52:00

this invitation, we

52:02

are accessing our deepest

52:04

knowing, our clarity, our

52:06

inner wisdom. It can come

52:09

through different channels depending

52:11

on how we're wired. And

52:14

there's a very critical step

52:16

here of not dismissing

52:18

it, but actually letting

52:20

it in. Letting it in,

52:23

like, breathe, breathe it in, breathe

52:25

it in, breathe it in, breathe

52:27

in what this knowing is, right?

52:29

that's emerging from the core of

52:31

your being. And notice what happens

52:34

as you do. What happens when

52:36

you let this in to your

52:38

body and your mind? This is

52:40

where transformation happens, I find. This is

52:43

really where the light of awareness

52:45

begins to imbue the conditioned

52:47

body mind and a shift

52:49

starts to happen on cognitive

52:52

levels, somatic levels, emotional

52:54

levels. Somatically there is

52:56

a sense of illumination. It's

52:58

very interesting. It's like

53:01

when we question, when we see what

53:03

is untrue, when we see true untruth,

53:05

truth comes of its own. When

53:07

we see the false, what is true,

53:09

what is essential, what is

53:12

authentic, effortlessly arises. This is

53:14

a very interesting principle

53:16

in this work, when we're working

53:19

from this deep way. This out there

53:21

is an intrinsic, implicit,

53:23

loving awareness in the core of

53:25

our being. which when we see

53:28

through untruth begins to imbue

53:30

the system. And so I've

53:32

seen this happen again and again

53:34

and again, and I find

53:36

this to be a

53:38

very powerful transformative process.

53:41

I love it because again

53:43

what you're pointing to, there

53:45

are tons of resilience practices

53:48

out there, but really when

53:50

the... deep injury maybe we

53:53

could say happens in relationship.

53:55

It's actually relationship that

53:57

ultimately also is the repair.

54:00

that being in presence

54:02

with another who can

54:04

hold the deep discomfort

54:06

alongside the suffering person,

54:08

you know? And a

54:11

lot of times in

54:13

childhood when parents are

54:16

overwhelmed there's a

54:18

tantruming child or

54:20

whatever the needs

54:22

are overwhelming the

54:24

whole family system

54:26

and I'd say not enough

54:29

nurturing care, was brought

54:31

into the presence between

54:33

the dyad or perhaps

54:35

the injury, the suffering,

54:37

right? That's where this

54:39

conditioning begins. And so to

54:41

unravel it, to unravel it

54:44

in a space where there

54:46

is another, another safe, and

54:48

maybe we should really put that

54:51

there, like, yeah, a safe person

54:53

who actually is presence

54:56

in the ground. safe and because

54:58

very often we don't feel seen

55:00

or heard in the deepest way.

55:02

I mean there's just

55:04

a consensual reality of

55:07

separation that most people live

55:09

in and of course many

55:11

stressful circumstances will distract us.

55:13

And so to really be

55:16

in the presence of someone

55:18

who's deeply grounded in

55:20

their own nature and open

55:22

and available and capable

55:24

of receiving us. as we are

55:26

in a deep way, you know, really

55:29

listening, really hearing,

55:31

really seeing is

55:33

profoundly reparative.

55:35

We know this, you know, and

55:37

that's what you're speaking to,

55:40

and that allows us then

55:42

to deeply attune with

55:44

our own essential nature.

55:46

So, so that healing, the

55:49

relational healing, plays a

55:51

role in terms of... The

55:53

interpersonal healing plays a role

55:55

in terms of the healing within

55:58

ourselves, the interpersonal healing. and allows

56:00

us to actually become more autonomous,

56:02

to trust ourselves more. But we

56:05

as human beings need this, and

56:07

we know this. We need that

56:09

loving support early on in order

56:11

to have that trust in ourselves

56:13

and in the world. And if that's

56:15

been absent, at some point or

56:18

another, through a loving and

56:20

appropriate relationship or a therapeutic

56:22

one, we have that support then to

56:24

align more deeply with who we

56:26

are. And I think this is

56:29

these kind of dimensions of

56:31

healing and awakening. You'll see

56:33

among therapists, they'll accent

56:35

the healing. Among spiritual

56:38

teachers, they'll accent the

56:40

awakening. But to understand actually

56:43

how these interact, or

56:45

ultimately not separate, is

56:47

something I think that's emergent.

56:49

That is to say, therapists

56:51

are opening to this understanding

56:53

that there is this essential

56:56

nature. that is available to all of

56:58

us, not just as a concept, which

57:00

is nice, but actually as a

57:02

lived reality. And spiritual teachers

57:04

are beginning to understand the

57:07

role of conditioning, early conditioning,

57:09

and how that obstructs the system

57:11

from opening to true nature. So

57:14

it's a very interesting field, I find,

57:16

and you know, one that of course

57:18

I've been exploring for decades. Yes, in

57:20

the field I love as well. And

57:22

I know we're clocking towards the end

57:24

here, but I'm... The up and out

57:27

versus down and in also

57:29

is maybe what we're pointing

57:32

to a little bit here

57:34

is the confluence of therapy

57:36

and spiritual teachings, right? Because

57:39

embodied spirituality is, you know,

57:41

the deepest ground. That's where

57:43

we're what we're speaking to

57:46

is this embodied spirituality.

57:48

So yeah, anything to unpack

57:50

there as far as the down and

57:53

in. you know, spiritual bypassing is

57:55

not what we're looking for.

57:57

I think that's threaded throughout

57:59

this conversation. I'm not sure if

58:01

there's any top tips or anything

58:03

else you would like to explore

58:06

as far as that up and

58:08

out versus down and in. Yeah,

58:10

what I would say is

58:12

the critical importance of self

58:14

honesty and vulnerability. This

58:17

is where a lot of

58:19

spiritual seekers go awry. They have

58:21

an idealized version of

58:23

what a spiritual awakening

58:26

or realization is all

58:28

about. And in that

58:30

idealized perspective, they negate

58:32

their own direct experience. And

58:34

this is a subtle, sometimes

58:37

not so subtle, in terms

58:39

of just denial of the

58:41

obvious, but often a subtle

58:43

process of splitting from one's

58:46

own direct experience. So

58:48

staying close to one's

58:50

experience is critically important.

58:52

And in order to do that

58:55

in a deep way, requires

58:57

a self-honesty. Like what

58:59

is my actual experience

59:02

right now and a vulnerability

59:05

to actually open to that,

59:07

you know, to feel, you know, to

59:09

let ourselves feel shaky,

59:12

to let ourselves feel

59:14

uncomfortable, to see areas where

59:17

we're not acting in a

59:19

way that's congruent with our

59:21

deepest knowing. Ways that

59:24

we're... in reaction, not in

59:26

order, not in a judgmental

59:28

way, and not in order to

59:30

brighten our image, but just like,

59:32

let me lean in here a

59:34

little more, what's going on, you know,

59:36

what's going on with that

59:39

extra glass of wine, you

59:41

know, what's going on in

59:43

this kind of internal reactive

59:45

dialogue I'm having about someone,

59:47

you know, not to judge, but

59:49

to be curious about that. That's

59:51

our way into... to me feels

59:53

like an imminent way of living.

59:55

And I think that's why

59:57

it's incumbent, both for therapists.

1:00:00

and spiritual teachers to be

1:00:02

vulnerable to, to be human,

1:00:04

to say, me too. I

1:00:06

have experienced that or I

1:00:08

am experiencing that or I'm

1:00:10

working with it or whatever

1:00:12

it may be, to be

1:00:14

unpertentious, to be authentic, to

1:00:16

be realistic. I think this

1:00:18

is a process. It's not

1:00:20

like one and done. It's

1:00:22

not like boom, you know,

1:00:24

I've had an awakening and

1:00:26

that's it. Rarely, in fact,

1:00:28

never is that the case.

1:00:30

Usually that's the beginning of

1:00:32

a whole nother process of,

1:00:34

oh my goodness, there is,

1:00:36

you know, so very often

1:00:38

in the process of opening

1:00:40

to a much, you know,

1:00:42

actually an infinite sense of

1:00:44

self, it flushes out all

1:00:46

sorts of conditioning. It can

1:00:48

even be temporarily destabilizing. Doesn't

1:00:50

mean that anything is wrong,

1:00:52

you know. It just means

1:00:54

the body mind is coming

1:00:56

into congruence with a deeper

1:00:58

knowing. And that's a lifelong

1:01:00

process. So I think there's

1:01:02

always going to be, we're

1:01:04

lessening the gap between our

1:01:06

deepest knowing and the way

1:01:08

we act and the way

1:01:10

we are with others. We're

1:01:12

not looking for perfection, but

1:01:14

just greater and greater congruence.

1:01:16

We're just like gradually coming

1:01:18

into alignment more and more

1:01:20

living with greater authenticity, greater

1:01:22

natural humility, greater simplicity, greater

1:01:24

simplicity. greater sense of non-separation

1:01:26

from the whole of life.

1:01:28

So honesty and vulnerability are

1:01:30

really important, attitudinally, and only

1:01:32

we can take responsibility for

1:01:34

that. And again, it's not

1:01:36

about being judgmental, it's just

1:01:38

by being real and staying

1:01:40

close to our own experience.

1:01:42

Yeah, and it's not about

1:01:44

naval gazing either. It's about

1:01:46

the importance of doing it

1:01:48

for oneself, because in relationship

1:01:50

to other people, once we,

1:01:52

once our system is rooted

1:01:54

in the ground or, you

1:01:56

know, when that... alignment in

1:01:58

that authenticity, we show up

1:02:00

for each other in the

1:02:02

best of ways. Well, this

1:02:04

is important. It's not an

1:02:06

act of, it's not a

1:02:08

selfish act, it's not an

1:02:10

egoic act. It's actually, we're

1:02:12

not following ego in this

1:02:14

path. We're following a sense

1:02:16

of something deeper and truer

1:02:18

and essential. And that is

1:02:20

a benefit to everyone. Because

1:02:22

the less we're caught in

1:02:24

our ego-centricity, the more available

1:02:26

we are to all of

1:02:28

life. So it's a profoundly

1:02:30

unselfish movement. And I think

1:02:32

that's important to accent. There

1:02:34

may be periods where we

1:02:36

need to step back and

1:02:38

get quiet in order to

1:02:40

do that kind of investigation.

1:02:42

And for me, that was

1:02:44

very important to be on

1:02:46

retreat, for instance. It may

1:02:48

be important to find someone

1:02:50

a guide, a spiritual guide,

1:02:52

for instance, with whom we

1:02:54

feel a sense of trust

1:02:56

and congruence who is worthy

1:02:58

of trust. who can help

1:03:00

guide us through often, you

1:03:02

know, this tricky territory, particularly

1:03:04

as we get into the

1:03:06

depths of the heart and

1:03:08

the ground. That's, you know,

1:03:10

we may need to have

1:03:13

a practice regularly for a

1:03:15

while until we let go

1:03:17

of the practice. All of

1:03:19

that is something that will

1:03:21

begin to show itself in

1:03:23

this process of coming home

1:03:25

to ourselves. Coming home, beautiful,

1:03:27

and wholeness, I know is

1:03:29

a word that really resonates

1:03:31

with you. balance is one

1:03:33

that also really resonates with

1:03:35

me. This is about, you

1:03:37

know, finding. Yeah, about equilibrium.

1:03:39

Yeah, for sure, for sure.

1:03:41

Any... Oh, well, maybe one,

1:03:43

I keep saying, I, you

1:03:45

know, I know we're getting

1:03:47

towards the end. Yeah, yeah,

1:03:49

last one, last one. We

1:03:51

mentioned shame. We mentioned the

1:03:53

terror. Also what really I

1:03:55

feel shows up on this

1:03:57

path of love returning to

1:03:59

itself is grief. show up

1:04:01

really strongly because the grief

1:04:03

is not only it's the

1:04:05

separation distress call not only

1:04:07

between us as mammals but

1:04:09

also between the lover and

1:04:11

the beloved if you will

1:04:13

or that's right yeah so

1:04:15

grieve it can feel like

1:04:17

vortex or you know it

1:04:19

bottomless pit it really can

1:04:21

but when we see it

1:04:23

as a marker Exactly. Yeah,

1:04:25

yeah, yeah. Yeah, is there

1:04:27

more to share there? Oh,

1:04:29

there's a lot to share

1:04:31

there. So I'm glad you

1:04:33

mentioned it. And in addition

1:04:35

to grief, I want to

1:04:37

talk about doubt just a

1:04:39

little bit too, because that's

1:04:41

one of the main obstacles.

1:04:43

But grief is completely natural

1:04:45

and appropriate to grieve that

1:04:47

which we've lost. And, you

1:04:49

know, I've had, I've lost

1:04:51

loved ones in my life

1:04:53

and continue to grieve grief

1:04:55

that. grief them. And for

1:04:57

me that's not a problem,

1:04:59

that's just being human. And

1:05:01

I think that's important to

1:05:03

normalize grief. And also recognize

1:05:05

that grief is a marker,

1:05:07

a pointer, and a portal.

1:05:09

And so if we let

1:05:11

ourselves, and there are different

1:05:13

levels of grief, aren't there?

1:05:15

And most of the grief

1:05:17

we're aware of is loss

1:05:19

of someone, a beloved someone.

1:05:21

But we also grieve losses

1:05:23

of places and objects and

1:05:25

belief systems and you know,

1:05:27

there's attachment to all sorts

1:05:29

of things, things that we

1:05:31

grieve. The deepest grief and

1:05:33

the grief that is least

1:05:35

well understood is the loss

1:05:37

of connection, conscious awareness, and

1:05:39

access to our deepest nature.

1:05:41

And this often happens unconsciously,

1:05:43

developmentally. Well, actually, I think

1:05:45

it happens with everyone, and

1:05:47

then sometimes in a traumatic

1:05:49

or dramatic way when we're

1:05:51

little, there's a real shutting

1:05:53

off of that kind of

1:05:55

innocence and tenderness and openness

1:05:57

that we come into the

1:05:59

world. world with. Very often

1:06:01

in this process, I find

1:06:03

as people deepen, they deepen

1:06:05

in their self-discovery process. They

1:06:07

encounter this grief that has

1:06:09

a nameless quality to it.

1:06:11

Like I'm grieving, I don't

1:06:13

even know what I'm grieving

1:06:15

for. And I'll say something

1:06:17

like, might it be that

1:06:19

you're grieving for the loss

1:06:21

of your true nature or

1:06:24

yourself? and then the tears

1:06:26

will come. And it's like,

1:06:28

oh my God, that's it.

1:06:30

I couldn't even articulate this

1:06:32

loss of connection with my

1:06:34

deepest nature. And it's like

1:06:36

to allow that grief, it's

1:06:38

very important because it will

1:06:40

move and it will pass.

1:06:42

There may be the grief

1:06:44

of I have lived 40

1:06:46

years or 50 years or

1:06:48

30 years of my life

1:06:50

disconnected wandering kind of in

1:06:52

the wilderness. I've wasted my

1:06:54

life, you know, it's actually

1:06:56

not true. We haven't wasted

1:06:58

our life. We needed to

1:07:00

wander the darkness in the

1:07:02

wilderness, but there can be

1:07:04

that feeling, like, oh, I

1:07:06

lost touch with this and

1:07:08

I've made so many bad

1:07:10

decisions, you know, and relationship

1:07:12

and career, and if I

1:07:14

just remembered, well, you didn't

1:07:16

remember, we don't remember, we

1:07:18

forget, and then we remember.

1:07:20

It's part of the process,

1:07:22

you know, part of the

1:07:24

human process. So the normalization,

1:07:26

the welcoming of the grief,

1:07:28

the discovery that grief itself

1:07:30

is a portal to something

1:07:32

to joy. It's like the

1:07:34

heart that griefs can also

1:07:36

be joyful. And what is,

1:07:38

when grief is, grief can

1:07:40

be frozen as it becomes,

1:07:42

as the tears come, there

1:07:44

may be shaking, whatever it

1:07:46

is, as it melts, the

1:07:48

depths of the heart open.

1:07:50

And we're able to love

1:07:52

and experience joy. that much

1:07:54

more fully. So as a

1:07:56

human being, we love and

1:07:58

we lose and we grieve

1:08:00

on many levels including the

1:08:02

loss of conscious connection with

1:08:04

essence. And in the allowing

1:08:06

of the grief, we rediscover

1:08:08

that connection. Again, it's like

1:08:10

the grief is a pointer

1:08:12

to what has been lost,

1:08:14

essentially. And as we follow

1:08:16

it back in to its

1:08:18

steps, we rediscover that which

1:08:20

we've lost. And again, there's

1:08:22

that sense of homecoming as

1:08:24

well. A very profound process.

1:08:26

Yeah, brings me back to

1:08:28

the yoga sutras in the

1:08:30

first chapter. I'm not sure

1:08:32

which sutra it is, but

1:08:34

patangually speaks. to the sorrowless

1:08:36

luminous, this idea. There it

1:08:38

is. There it is. Yeah.

1:08:40

And that's where the joy

1:08:42

just, and again, the, yeah,

1:08:44

the life force. We're here.

1:08:46

We're here. We're here. And

1:08:48

we're willing to be fully

1:08:50

human. And being fully human

1:08:52

is very poignant. You know,

1:08:54

I've really, this word poignancy

1:08:56

is really come to the

1:08:58

forefront of my vocabulary in

1:09:00

the last two decades, really,

1:09:02

because. It's not all about

1:09:04

bliss, you know. It's not

1:09:06

like we're always joyful and

1:09:08

happy. We're deeply feeling. We're

1:09:10

open. And as our hearts

1:09:12

open, we open to the

1:09:14

suffering of the world, you

1:09:16

know. Fortunately, the nature of

1:09:18

the heart, the deepest nature

1:09:20

of the heart, it goes

1:09:22

beyond the personal. There's a

1:09:24

universal quality of love that

1:09:26

actually can hold that suffering.

1:09:28

But the individual human heart

1:09:30

can't. So there's a whole

1:09:32

piece here about, as the

1:09:34

heart opens, we realize, oh,

1:09:37

there is a collective grief,

1:09:39

here as well. And this

1:09:41

is part of the human

1:09:43

experience, you know. Yes, and

1:09:45

that, again, of course, this

1:09:47

is going to bring up

1:09:49

something else now, that that

1:09:51

deeper heart, the, the term

1:09:53

in Sanskrit is the heredite,

1:09:55

this, the heart of... The

1:09:57

herediah, yeah, yeah. So, I

1:09:59

don't know if there's just

1:10:01

a few things to mention

1:10:03

about that. So there's for

1:10:05

sure, there's the human heart,

1:10:07

but then... the heart of

1:10:09

hearts, if you will. The

1:10:11

heart of hearts or the

1:10:13

heart of awareness. And Ramana

1:10:15

Maharshi spoke about it this

1:10:17

way. He would speak about

1:10:19

the heart of awareness. And

1:10:21

it's very interesting to read

1:10:23

talks of Ramana Maharshi. It's

1:10:25

very rich, very deep series

1:10:27

of dialogues. And he said,

1:10:29

you know, ultimately the heart

1:10:31

is neither inside nor outside

1:10:33

of the body. In other

1:10:35

words, it's non-localized. So he's

1:10:37

using heart in this sense

1:10:39

as essence. you know, the

1:10:41

heart of awareness. Awareness is

1:10:43

non-local. It has a local

1:10:45

expression, but ultimately is non-local.

1:10:47

So that's the universal heart.

1:10:49

But it has a local

1:10:51

expression here, right in the

1:10:53

center of our chest, you

1:10:55

know. And this is a

1:10:57

very rich area of exploration,

1:10:59

you know, that has areas,

1:11:01

often it's shielded and guarded,

1:11:03

because there's a tenderness there,

1:11:05

and we share our hearts.

1:11:07

cautiously and maybe with a

1:11:09

few people and fear you

1:11:11

know being invaded or hurt.

1:11:13

It's also a portal not

1:11:15

just to kind of the

1:11:17

inner child part to this

1:11:19

but to the soulful level

1:11:21

that we were talking about

1:11:23

a little bit earlier in

1:11:25

our conversation where there are

1:11:27

essential qualities of being of

1:11:29

innocence, tenderness, compassion, generosity. Now

1:11:31

these as the heart opens.

1:11:33

as we regain that kind

1:11:35

of early, regain our connection

1:11:37

with that early innocence, those

1:11:39

qualities begin to just pour

1:11:41

out spontaneously. We don't have

1:11:43

to cultivate them. We're not

1:11:45

cultivating compassion. We're not cultivating

1:11:47

generosity or kindness. It's just

1:11:49

like, it's like, pour out

1:11:51

quite naturally. So that's like

1:11:53

on a soulful level. And

1:11:55

that's an intermediary. It's not

1:11:57

egoic. It's not universal. You

1:11:59

know, and this is an

1:12:01

area that Jung, I think.

1:12:03

And those. like him have

1:12:05

developed and articulated quite well.

1:12:07

What's interesting is it feels

1:12:09

like the heart is a

1:12:11

portal. This area of the

1:12:13

body is a portal for

1:12:15

that universal love to come

1:12:17

through. as these knots and

1:12:19

constrictions release and open and

1:12:21

essential qualities of being are

1:12:23

integrated. So in the same

1:12:25

way, you know, the bottom

1:12:27

falls out and we feel

1:12:29

this quality of groundless ground,

1:12:31

the heart opens to a

1:12:33

quality of universal love. These

1:12:35

are different portals, the mind,

1:12:37

the heart, the horror, to

1:12:39

the same awareness and they

1:12:41

have different tones to them.

1:12:43

Tone of the mind, clarity,

1:12:45

awake mind, clarity, vastness, space,

1:12:48

tone of the heart, love,

1:12:50

kindness, non-separation, tone of the

1:12:52

horror is one of profound

1:12:54

stability, profound silence out of

1:12:56

which, you know, that has

1:12:58

a foundational quality that supports

1:13:00

the whole human system for

1:13:02

that flowering. I go on.

1:13:04

So let me, I mentioned

1:13:06

that. No, I love it

1:13:08

because I love, I love

1:13:10

interpersonal neurobiology and Dan Siegel's,

1:13:12

you know, integration made visible

1:13:14

is kindness and compassion. I

1:13:16

mean, it's just a reworking

1:13:18

of what we know from

1:13:20

the wisdom traditions, but it

1:13:22

is what it is. Integration

1:13:24

made visible is kindness and

1:13:26

compassion. Yeah, there it is.

1:13:28

There it is. And yeah,

1:13:30

Dan Siegel's work is brilliant

1:13:32

and important articulation kind of

1:13:34

in this. interaction. The last

1:13:36

point I wanted to touch

1:13:38

on had to do with

1:13:40

doubt because you were talking

1:13:42

about kind of veils to

1:13:44

the discovery of true nature.

1:13:46

I would say the two

1:13:48

most important are fear and

1:13:50

shame. The third I would

1:13:52

say is doubt. And that's

1:13:54

something I really struggled with

1:13:56

for years because I have

1:13:58

a skeptical mind and it's

1:14:00

like, are you fooling yourself?

1:14:02

Are you just wanting to

1:14:04

feel better? Are you just,

1:14:06

you know, even when I

1:14:08

would have upwellings of deep

1:14:10

a deep sense of something

1:14:12

greater the mind would come

1:14:14

in and say you know

1:14:16

what is that and what

1:14:18

are you what are you

1:14:20

making of it and so

1:14:22

on so it Turns out

1:14:24

in the spiritual search, investigation

1:14:26

and discovery process, it's very

1:14:28

important to see doubt for

1:14:30

what it is, to see

1:14:32

doubt as a lens, to

1:14:34

see doubt as an object,

1:14:36

a subtle mental construct. And

1:14:38

when we're able to see

1:14:40

doubt for what it is,

1:14:42

when we can disidentify from

1:14:44

doubt, the system, particularly the

1:14:46

mind, is much more open

1:14:48

to intuiting its source. So

1:14:50

I just wanted to kind

1:14:52

of slip that one in

1:14:54

too, because some people may

1:14:56

not feel a lot of

1:14:58

fear. No, their holding place

1:15:00

may be more shame. Some

1:15:02

people may not be fear,

1:15:04

may not be shame. It

1:15:06

will be doubt. They get

1:15:08

caught in that skeptical mind,

1:15:10

and that sort of is

1:15:12

an important obstruction and veil.

1:15:14

And with what you said

1:15:16

about the residences in each

1:15:18

center, with doubt... I would

1:15:20

imagine stability is challenged as

1:15:22

is the outpouring of loving

1:15:24

kindness and passion. Exactly. You

1:15:26

can kind of play the

1:15:28

three on a scale in

1:15:30

a way. And that's right.

1:15:32

So is the clarity there?

1:15:34

Is that veiled? Is the

1:15:36

loving kindness and compassion there?

1:15:38

Is that blocked? Is the

1:15:40

stability there? And those are

1:15:42

very simple. tools that you've

1:15:44

just named. John, and I

1:15:46

really appreciate that. Yeah, those

1:15:48

are markers of essential qualities

1:15:50

of being and whether these

1:15:52

portals are open or closed.

1:15:54

And that's where the self

1:15:56

coming back to self honesty

1:15:58

and vulnerability. We can kind

1:16:01

of check in a non-judgmental

1:16:03

way, how is that here?

1:16:05

You know, and then if

1:16:07

it feels failed or closed,

1:16:09

then with compassion, you know,

1:16:11

with curiosity, with affection, the

1:16:13

sense of being resource. you

1:16:15

know, and a more spacious

1:16:17

awareness. We welcome that into

1:16:19

presence and without an agenda

1:16:21

fix or change it. Wonderful.

1:16:23

I deeply appreciate. I appreciate

1:16:25

you John and I appreciate

1:16:27

you spending this time with

1:16:29

me and exploration and conversation.

1:16:31

Yeah, it's been a delight.

1:16:33

It's really been very enjoyable.

1:16:35

I love the flow and

1:16:37

interaction. Wonderful. Thank you. Thank

1:16:39

you. And for those of

1:16:41

you watching and listening, thank

1:16:43

you for being with us.

1:16:45

You're the reason that we're

1:16:47

here in community exploring. our

1:16:49

common unity. You

1:16:52

are warmly invited to visit

1:16:54

transformation and integration.com to access

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1:16:59

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