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Hey everyone, it's Katie Kirk and I want

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Apple podcast or wherever you get your

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podcasts. Hi

0:58

everyone, I'm Katie Kirk and this is

1:00

next question. Megan

1:05

McCain first of all thank you so

1:07

much for being here. Oh

1:09

my gosh Katie, thank you so much for having me

1:11

and I've known you so long and I'm such a

1:13

fan of all your work and I'm so

1:15

glad to be here. I actually just saw some clips

1:18

of an interview you just did with Jen Psaki that's

1:20

all over the Internet and I was I went to

1:22

play date with a girlfriend over the weekend. She was

1:24

like I just saw this amazing interview with Katie Kirk

1:26

and I was like I'm going on a show next

1:28

week so. Well, you

1:30

know, I really appreciate you sitting down

1:32

with me because Megan, I know we

1:35

disagree on a number of issues but

1:37

I don't know about you I really don't

1:39

want to live in a country where half

1:41

the population doesn't talk to the other half

1:43

of the country. So what

1:45

my goal today is for you

1:48

and I to hopefully model a

1:50

conversation marked by respect kindness

1:52

and open heartedness which really isn't a

1:54

word. But I think in a way

1:56

I want you and I to be

1:58

a bit of a social. experiment for

2:01

our time. I don't know about you. I

2:03

really don't want to live in a country

2:05

where half the population doesn't talk to the

2:07

other half of the country. So

2:09

what my goal today is for

2:11

you and I to hopefully model

2:13

a conversation marked by

2:15

respect, kindness, and open-heartedness, which really

2:18

isn't a word. But I

2:20

think in a way, I want you and

2:22

I to be a bit of a social

2:24

experiment for our time. So thank you for

2:26

doing this. Thank you for being here. We

2:28

have so much to talk about in so little

2:30

time. So I thought I

2:32

would just dive right in and ask

2:35

you about the Instagram post. I'm on

2:37

Instagram, I think, 18 hours a day.

2:39

Sadly, I've got a real problem, Megan.

2:42

But I was struck by your post, I

2:44

think it was three days after the election.

2:46

And I'm gonna read the first two paragraphs

2:48

if I could, and then we can talk

2:50

about it. You wrote, I

2:52

cannot express how validated I feel

2:55

about my politics, my values, and

2:57

my record of warning Democrats publicly

2:59

for over a decade

3:01

that their elitism, socialism, and

3:03

overall social insanity is

3:05

alienating the country as well as

3:08

just is incredibly dangerous and anti-American

3:10

on a policy level. My

3:13

entire adult life, I have had

3:15

abuse directed at me simply for

3:17

being a proud, strong conservative woman

3:19

who wouldn't back down. I've

3:21

been yelled at in restaurants, been

3:24

socially ostracized almost everywhere except

3:26

in conservative circles, been

3:28

subjected to toxic work environments beyond

3:30

comprehension, been accused of being a

3:32

traitor to my gender and more

3:34

than I have time to write

3:36

here, all because I've refused

3:38

to be quiet and I

3:40

am a Republican woman. I

3:43

read that and I wondered, actually, I

3:45

don't think I read that many comments,

3:47

cuz I think you had just posted

3:50

it. But tell us a

3:52

little bit about the reaction to your

3:54

post. Well, I didn't

3:56

expect it to get quite as much attention as it

3:58

did. I think it's one of my. the

4:00

most comments written on a post

4:03

ever, except for things relating to my dad when he

4:05

had cancer. It came off

4:07

afterward. I have some friends in my

4:10

life who really didn't like it and they thought it was

4:12

like tonally sort of not appropriate, but I feel like I

4:15

was just really letting off feelings

4:17

that I felt for a really long time. And I

4:19

don't normally, I try and be like a Christian woman

4:21

who shows a lot of grace, but in that moment

4:23

I was like, I feel like

4:26

I have been warning that a tsunami is

4:28

coming for a really long time and been

4:30

told I'm crazy. And then the tsunami came

4:32

and I was, and it's like, I've

4:34

been trying to tell everybody this is going to happen and

4:36

Trump's going to get reelected and

4:38

people really hate what's going on in the

4:40

country. And, you know, I've

4:43

basically been, not everywhere. It's an

4:45

exaggeration. I'm a little dramatic Katie in general,

4:47

so. But

4:51

I just feel like, you know, I've taken a lot of

4:53

heat from a lot of people and a lot of personal

4:55

things have happened to me in the past few,

4:58

I'd say like five years, 10 years, whatever. And

5:00

I just was trying to say

5:02

that like, if we don't

5:04

reset in general

5:06

in the country, that this is only going to

5:08

get worse. And I

5:10

did up my own podcast with a friend

5:13

of mine who's very progressive and we discussed

5:15

the post. And I was like, sometimes I'm

5:17

never a schadenfreude person, but in that moment,

5:19

just processing the election, I was like, a

5:22

lot of things I said were going to happen came

5:25

true. I wondered, Megan, if

5:27

you could share a little more

5:29

about your experience being a conservative

5:31

woman in media. You were

5:33

the token conservative, if you will, on The

5:35

View from 2017 to 2021. Can

5:41

you talk a little bit about

5:43

that experience over those four years?

5:46

Yeah, I mean, people are always curious about

5:48

this and I understand because there's a lot

5:50

of like, sort of storied history.

5:52

I did not have a great ending in

5:54

the show. I'm really

5:57

proud of the fact that I'm one of two hosts in

5:59

the history of the show that quit. and wars and fired

6:01

me and Meredith Vieira. In the 28-year

6:03

history, that's pretty cool to leave on your own fruition.

6:07

I've been the token conservative on many shows.

6:09

I was a contributor on MSNBC. I did

6:11

this millennial talk show with our friend, Jacob

6:13

Soboroff in LA, and I was always the

6:15

token conservative. For a long time, it was

6:17

fun, where I liked working with

6:19

respectful people that wanted to hear my opinion,

6:21

I wanted to hear theirs. Then

6:24

in the era of Trump, things really

6:26

shifted where I felt like I was

6:28

an avatar for all the hate and

6:30

anger and frustration about Trump being filtered

6:32

onto me. When I started working at

6:35

the show, I was very nervous to

6:37

work there in general because it doesn't have a great

6:39

reputation. But my dad talked me into

6:41

it. My dad was like, you can't not do

6:43

this. It's a huge platform. It's ABC News, you

6:45

know better than anyone the power of network television.

6:49

As time went on

6:51

in the Trump administration, things just got

6:53

progressively uglier, both on the show, on

6:56

the content we were making, and then

6:58

backstage as well. In

7:00

that period of time, I always tell people I was like not

7:03

the best version of myself for a lot of different

7:05

reasons. I've had fertility struggles, I've had three miscarriages, I

7:07

had my first one when I was on the show.

7:09

My dad was dying of brain cancer, I was a

7:11

caregiver to him. There's a lot of drama in my

7:13

life. At the same time that

7:15

Trump was attacking my family publicly. I

7:17

was just very emotional at the time

7:20

in general, but I felt like I wasn't

7:22

given grace from the people running the network

7:24

or my colleagues at the time. It's

7:27

very tragic that it ended the way it

7:29

did. I really tried to save myself and

7:31

save what I felt like was okay for

7:33

the show. But now

7:35

there's a report out in the New York

7:38

Post yesterday that the ABC executives are panicking

7:40

because they don't have a real

7:42

conservative person on the show, and they're looking

7:44

for someone to fill that void. I was

7:46

always saying, you may not like

7:49

it, but it's an important role and the

7:51

demonization of Republican women, I think, is there's

7:53

a direct through line between how I'm treated

7:55

or was. Again, this is a broad generalization.

7:58

There's lovely people in the media. on the

8:00

left that are very kind to me. This is just my

8:02

specific experience on the show.

8:04

But I think there's a direct line between

8:07

seeing the treatment of people like me and Trump now.

8:10

And do you feel like you were just

8:12

sort of perpetually disrespected? I have

8:15

to say I'm not a regular

8:17

watcher of the view, but

8:19

I remember when you were on and

8:22

you were outnumbered and did

8:24

you feel that people were open to

8:27

you or that they automatically

8:29

attacked you if you opened your mouth?

8:32

The hardest part about working on that show is actually how bad

8:34

the leaking in the press was. In the

8:36

first two weeks that I worked there, there was an article

8:38

in the Daily Mail in the New

8:41

York Post about how my nickname on the show

8:43

was Elsa the Ice Princess because I was an

8:45

ice bitch. That's a direct quote. I'd been working

8:47

there, I think 10 days at the time. And

8:50

I could never have any private

8:52

experiences backstage without it automatically going

8:54

to a tabloid. Interestingly enough, that

8:57

immediately ended when I left. And

9:00

it's hard to maintain any kind of trust

9:02

when you're already feeling like an outsider and

9:04

then you have a private conversation saying, there

9:06

was another article I remember because you remember

9:08

when it's about you. Oh yeah, believe me,

9:12

I know the feeling. It's horrible, it's

9:14

really horrible to be, because I'm a communicator.

9:18

I would love to work things out privately, but when you're

9:20

having a conversation and you're saying it's so hard to be

9:23

a Republican on the show and then I cannot.

9:26

But one of the last conversations I

9:29

had with them was you really need

9:31

to fix this anger and this aggression

9:33

towards women who are unlike you. And

9:36

it obviously didn't make any

9:38

difference at all. I

9:41

know, Megan, you're a lifelong conservative,

9:43

but you're not really a part

9:45

of the MAGA movement. In fact,

9:47

you are what they call in

9:49

Arizona, a McCain Republican. And that's

9:51

not necessarily said in a complimentary

9:53

way these days. I saw you

9:56

speak at a women's conference that

9:58

I was also at. Can

10:00

you talk about what

10:02

has happened to today's

10:04

GOP and the MAGA

10:06

takeover of the party

10:08

and what it's been like for you

10:11

personally to witness this? Well,

10:13

I always joke there are dozens of

10:15

us, there are dozens of McCain Republicans.

10:18

That's like a meme from Twitter. There are dozens of

10:20

us. Look, I have my personal

10:22

reasons for not liking President Trump that everyone

10:24

is aware of, and I also have policy

10:26

and just character reasons for

10:29

not liking Trump that a

10:31

lot of people in the country do. Yeah,

10:33

McCain Republicans are thrown around by, I just

10:35

use the example of Carrie Lake, the woman

10:37

who ran for governor and lost, and who

10:39

just ran for Senate and lost. She literally

10:41

said when she was on the campaign trail,

10:43

if you're a McCain Republican, get the hell

10:45

out. Then she ended up losing by around,

10:47

I think it was 12 points, which statistically,

10:49

they're 12 percent of people in Arizona that

10:51

consider themselves McCain Republicans. So do

10:54

that math, whatever you want. Right. Look, it's

10:56

complicated and it's difficult. I have friends who

10:58

are more than likely going to work in

11:00

the Trump administration and I literally had a

11:02

conversation with one recently where I was like,

11:04

I hope your relationship with me doesn't hurt

11:06

you. It's a horrible, in

11:08

the same way that the left is tribal,

11:10

the right is just comparably tribal as well

11:12

in all ways. It's

11:15

sad and it has been personally difficult

11:17

and also just politically bizarre to feel

11:19

like you've done something wrong because I'm

11:22

not a MAGA Kool-Aid drinking

11:24

populist and I'm never going to be and

11:26

that's okay. It's okay. I

11:28

don't think I've done anything wrong, but it certainly

11:30

makes you unpopular in a lot of spaces. Well,

11:33

why do you think it caught fire in the

11:35

way it did, Megan? That as

11:37

you say, there are dozens of McCain

11:40

Republicans who could say the same thing

11:42

about Mitt Romney Republican. I guess what

11:44

we used to call Rockefeller Republicans. It's

11:47

so fascinating how the parties have really

11:49

been turned upside down. But why do

11:51

you think Donald Trump has such a

11:54

hold on so many people in this

11:56

country? A lot of different

11:58

reasons. I think one of the the smartest things

12:00

he's ever said is, they're not after me, they're

12:03

after you, I'm just in the way. And

12:05

I think there's just a feeling of a lot

12:07

of people in the country who are

12:09

living paycheck to paycheck, who have been screaming

12:12

at the top of their lungs that inflation's

12:14

killing them and they can't. I have a

12:16

friend in my life who couldn't go on

12:18

a summer vacation this summer because of the

12:20

amount of money she was paying extra and

12:22

gas and inflation and interest rates on her,

12:24

I believe health insurance, can't remember just

12:27

the health or car insurance. And her

12:29

husband's gainfully employed. So I

12:32

think there was just a feeling that people

12:34

are not being heard, the needs

12:36

of the lower middle class are

12:38

not being addressed and that Trump

12:40

continues to say, I'm an outsider,

12:42

I am gonna fight for you.

12:45

And people believed it. And I just

12:47

think there's been a lot of mistakes

12:50

done along the way from Democrats running

12:53

for office and governing in a

12:55

world they want to see exist and not the

12:57

one that actually exists. You

13:00

know, I have thought about your

13:02

dad so often, Meghan, during

13:05

this election cycle, I'm sure you think

13:07

about him every day, but I

13:09

was one of many people who

13:11

deeply admired him for his character,

13:14

his service, and of course his

13:16

wicked sense of humor. You

13:19

know, you talked about personal reasons

13:22

for disliking President Trump because he

13:24

has disrespected your father repeatedly. He

13:27

said he's not a war hero

13:29

because he was captured. I like

13:31

people that weren't captured. He

13:33

was furious when your father was

13:36

the deciding vote to not repeal

13:38

Obamacare. He reportedly was apoplectic when

13:40

the flags were flown at half

13:42

mast after your dad, I

13:44

think it's actually half staff if it's

13:47

on ground and half mast if it's

13:49

at sea, half staff

13:51

after your dad died. Your

13:53

dad specifically instructed he did

13:55

not want Donald Trump at

13:57

his funeral and all

13:59

of this. I mean, you loved your dad

14:01

so much. I love my dad so much.

14:03

I can't imagine how painful, honestly, all

14:05

of this was for you. So

14:08

I'm curious, and you've probably

14:10

been asked this a million times, but what

14:13

do you think your dad would

14:15

think of Donald Trump's campaign, this

14:17

go round? He died in 2018, so

14:20

he didn't see this Donald

14:22

Trump 2.0, which is kind

14:24

of Trump on steroids, actually. What

14:27

would he make of it? This

14:29

is not his style, and I think anyone

14:31

that's ever seen anything that he ever did,

14:33

he was always so bipartisan and

14:36

trying to work with the other side. To his

14:38

detriment, I mean, he was called a rhino and

14:40

attacked by people like Rush Limbaugh throughout his entire career.

14:43

So even when he was alive, he was sort of

14:46

the McCain Republican figure that he is now.

14:48

He would be heartbroken, but he

14:51

also was stoic in everything. And

14:53

I remember when Trump was first

14:55

elected, I was very scared because

14:57

that time I did not, I

15:00

thought he had a likelihood of winning, I didn't think he

15:02

would, but then secretly I was like, I don't think he's

15:04

really gonna pull it off. It's Hillary Clinton he's running against.

15:06

And I remember the next morning calling him, and he was

15:08

like, I know what's going on, get up and go to

15:11

your window. And I was like, okay, and I

15:13

was living in New York, and I was still single at the time, and

15:15

I went up and looked out the window, and he goes, do you see

15:17

all those mother-blanking pigs flying

15:19

everywhere? That's what's going

15:21

on, the pigs are flying outside, that's

15:24

what's happening. And he always maintained

15:26

this really acerbic dark sense of humor, so I

15:28

think he would have maintained his acerbic dark sense of

15:30

humor, but I think he would have been a conscience

15:33

for the country in the way he always was. But

15:36

I also think that he would have had a, I think

15:38

he would have been really demonized the way Amit Ramani

15:41

had been. And my

15:43

dad dying gutted me, and I always

15:46

feel like the point, there's like before

15:48

my dad died and after my dad died, and I

15:50

didn't become a different person, but it just hardens you

15:52

and ages you when you lose anyone

15:54

to brain cancer, anyone who's experienced it,

15:56

you just become a different version of

15:59

yourself. And there's a part of me

16:01

that's happy he's not alive to see all this because it

16:03

would have broken his heart so badly to see the divisions

16:06

in the country the way they are. Also,

16:08

you know, the discourse and

16:10

I use that in really

16:12

big air quotes because one

16:15

of many reasons I could not

16:17

vote for Donald Trump was

16:19

just the way he conducts himself

16:22

and comports himself. And

16:24

I actually wrote something and I

16:26

harkened back to that campaign stop

16:29

when someone was trashing Barack

16:31

Obama and your

16:34

father defended his opponent.

16:36

Let's listen. I

16:39

got to ask you a question. I do not believe

16:42

in I can't trust Obama. I

16:45

have read about him and he's not he's

16:47

not he's a he's

16:50

an Arab. He is not.

16:53

No, no, no, no, no, no,

16:55

no, he's a he's a

16:57

he's a decent family man citizen that

17:00

I just happen to have disagreements with

17:03

on on fundamental issues. And that's what this

17:05

campaign is all about. He's not. Thank you.

17:07

Thank you. I

17:12

so appreciated this

17:14

decorum and this

17:17

character that your dad always exhibited. I

17:19

didn't necessarily agree with all of his

17:22

policy positions, but I was so grateful

17:25

for the way he conducted himself. I

17:27

mean, there couldn't be a greater

17:29

contrast between him and Donald Trump. He's

17:32

the last of the great ones, I

17:34

believe. I think his passing. My

17:37

husband always says it was a generational shift. It

17:39

was like the ending of a very specific kind

17:41

of generation that still cared about character

17:43

and ethics and morals.

17:46

And look, he was far from a perfect person. He

17:48

would say that to your face. Right. Sure. A million

17:50

times he would know that. Like he certainly had his

17:52

fault. But I worship my dad. So

17:54

there's no you're never going to get me to say

17:56

anything really negative. I mean, I see him as a

17:58

real person. You're never going

18:00

to get me to say anything negative about him. But

18:02

I think one of the things

18:05

that I miss the most about my dad, because people

18:07

ask me all the time, is as you said, his

18:09

humor. He maintained such levity in

18:11

dark situations. Even when he was, I remember

18:13

when he was running for president, it was

18:15

clear he wasn't going to win. Some

18:18

journalists, I don't remember who got up in his face and

18:20

was like, is this going to

18:22

be so hard for you or are you in a dark

18:24

place? He was like, excuse

18:26

me, I've been through way worse than this. Obviously

18:30

what the implication of that is, he was

18:32

tortured for five and a half years and

18:34

he just always maintained this humor. Humor is

18:36

gone from politics in general right now. Or

18:38

he's been replaced with this weird, sick,

18:41

hurtful humor, I think. Yes,

18:44

the nagging, punting, bullying humor.

18:58

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21:01

heart radio app or wherever you get

21:03

your podcasts. I

21:16

was talking to someone recently Megan I was

21:18

curious about your take on this about Lindsey

21:20

Graham I don't even remember, you know

21:22

I talked to so many people and I read so

21:26

many things that you know

21:28

someone said Lindsey Graham

21:31

always relied or depended on

21:34

John McCain to give him a spine. Right

21:38

and wow yeah and then after your dad died. He

21:44

became spineless because he didn't

21:46

have someone to look

21:48

up to like your father and of course

21:50

I I'm old enough to remember the 3

21:52

amigos you know your dad and Joe Lieberman

21:55

and Lindsey Graham and as

21:57

you watch Lindsey Graham become. sort

22:00

of sycophant in chief. I

22:03

mean, what went through your

22:05

mind? I won't associate it

22:07

with him anymore. I don't want to have

22:09

anything to do with Lindsey Graham, and there's

22:11

some personal animus that he's very well aware

22:13

of between us, and I

22:15

just find him, you know,

22:20

he's so far removed from the person I used to know,

22:23

and I know from, you know, mutual friends

22:25

we have, and I would like to say my mother

22:27

still associates with him and my brothers, too. He's like,

22:29

my personal choice, I'm just not comfortable around him, because

22:32

he loves talking to the press, too. Like, you know,

22:34

there's very rarely, you can have a private conversation with

22:36

him that doesn't end up someplace, and I really, you

22:38

know, better than anyone else in your life, you really

22:40

have to have people around you that believe

22:42

in the concept of off the record, especially

22:44

people in your personal life, but he just,

22:48

he will go where power is in whatever

22:50

form, and, you know, I think

22:52

he'll get these, like, short-term dopamine rushes from being

22:54

associated with Trump, and I think he'll get this

22:56

short term, but I always wonder what, how he's

22:58

gonna feel at the end of his career, if

23:01

this is all worth it, if morphing this way

23:03

is all worth it, but maybe he looks at

23:05

Liz Cheney and is like, look at her career,

23:07

you know, she's out of power, and she's demonized

23:09

by so many people, and I don't wanna be

23:11

that, so I need to be like Trump, and,

23:13

you know, imitate him and be his best friend,

23:16

and people all have

23:18

to live with their decisions in

23:20

life, and with their conscience, and

23:22

with their creator, and he

23:25

disappoints me on many different levels, and

23:27

I just, I don't wanna be

23:29

around him anymore. You know,

23:31

you talk about people having serious

23:33

struggles, economic struggles, and how that

23:35

motivated a lot of people to

23:38

vote the way they did, and

23:41

not to put too fine a point

23:43

on it, because we sort of talked

23:45

about this already, Megan, but it's fascinating

23:47

to me, and actually, I think disturbing

23:49

to many, that Donald Trump's behavior and

23:51

actions, he never did anything

23:54

that was disqualifying, and I wonder if

23:56

you could shed some light on you

24:00

believe things like January 6th, which

24:02

Donald Trump called a day of

24:04

love, his conviction by a

24:06

jury of his peers of 34 felony

24:09

counts, his asking the

24:11

Secretary of State of Georgia to find him

24:13

11,780 votes, his insistence that the 2020 election

24:15

was rigged despite

24:17

the fact that

24:21

over 60 court cases failed to find evidence

24:24

of that. Why do you think

24:26

all those things — this is what I'm still scratching

24:28

my head about, Meghan — didn't

24:30

lead voters to think

24:32

he was just simply unfit for

24:35

office? I mean, and that's just,

24:37

honestly, those are just kind of

24:39

the headlines. There are so many

24:41

other things underneath those

24:43

actions that I could have

24:45

also named. Why do you

24:48

think people were willing to turn a

24:50

blind eye to so many things that

24:52

Donald Trump not only did, but what

24:54

he stands for? I

24:56

think there's a few different answers

24:58

to this. The first one is the same

25:00

friend. She felt sort of like, I don't

25:03

know, guilty, but definitely like a little

25:05

sheepish telling me she was voting for Trump. And

25:07

I asked the same question. And she said,

25:10

I paid $500 for groceries

25:12

and $100 for gas this morning. I

25:15

like something has got to change. And I don't

25:17

have the sort of, I'm not in the same

25:19

station in life that you are with the same

25:21

kind of guardrails to have that be my main

25:23

priority, which I thought was a very interesting and

25:25

honest answer. So I think for a lot of

25:27

people, as James Carville says, it's just the economy

25:30

is stupid and they just want change. I also

25:32

think people are very scared about the border and

25:34

very scared about a lot of these culture war

25:37

issues and just seeing the world changing in a

25:39

way that they don't like. And they've sort of

25:41

come to terms with the fact that the person

25:43

who's going to change it comes in this really

25:46

morally corrupt and character flawed

25:48

package. I also think

25:51

I had a conversation with Sean Spicer where he was

25:53

bringing up the fact that Bill Clinton

25:55

is still someone who was on the convention

25:57

stage for the Democrat Party and he's someone

25:59

who obviously. We don't need to go into it,

26:01

but a lot of sexual- I

26:03

thought about that too, but I just

26:05

feel like they're not

26:08

comparable. I don't think it's the same

26:10

either, just relaying. Yeah, yeah,

26:12

yeah, yeah. But no, I've wondered

26:14

about that as well. The

26:17

way it met out for me is that

26:20

the actions

26:23

are just, you can't compare the two. I

26:26

think also in this election, there are two

26:28

moments that I thought really did it for

26:30

Trump. One of them was

26:33

his assassination attempt and the image of

26:35

him screaming fight with blood down his

26:37

face. And even for me,

26:39

because I do not like him, I'm not

26:42

a supporter, I wrote in, not just whatever

26:44

of him. But even for me, I was

26:46

like, oh my God, this man is like,

26:48

even when he's bleeding, he's like, I'm fighting

26:50

for you. And I think there was just

26:52

never a comparably iconic image for Biden or

26:55

Vice President Harris going into the election. And

26:58

then I think President Biden calling Republicans

27:00

garbage, I really don't think you can

27:02

underestimate what it impacted that. I knew

27:04

a lot of people who dress like

27:06

in garbage trash bags at Halloween and

27:08

put like garbage person trash person on

27:11

their social media and bios. And I think

27:14

if you already think the elites think you're garbage,

27:16

then you're not going to believe that they're

27:18

going to fight for you. If you're trash

27:20

that's thrown out and you're you're what you

27:22

do and say doesn't matter. It's horrible that

27:24

President Biden did it. Vice President Harris didn't

27:26

do it. She never said anything like that.

27:28

But unfortunately, I think the mistakes of President

27:30

Biden hurt her very deeply. You

27:33

wrote in a candidate. I want to ask you who

27:35

did my dad. Oh, you wrote in your dad. I

27:40

know it's so and people are mad at me. People

27:42

are so mad at me, Katie. I mean, mad that

27:44

I didn't vote either way. And I was like, I'm

27:46

I have such like Christian Gill at night and I

27:48

don't want to I don't want anything on my conscience

27:51

with any of it. And I just I can never

27:53

vote for Trump. I can't do it. I could never

27:55

explain it to my children. And tell me why you

27:58

couldn't vote for Kamala Harris. in

30:00

Afghanistan to basically fend for themselves and be

30:02

killed, it would have, he

30:04

would have had a nervous breakdown over it, and

30:07

I think he couldn't have forgiven that. You

30:09

also feel that Israel would have been a

30:12

big factor in his vote. He

30:14

was a huge pro-Israel person. That's where I

30:16

got a lot of my, you know, advocacy

30:18

from. And also the Democrats have shifted too.

30:21

They're much more progressive than, you know, the

30:23

era of the Joe Lieberman Democrat is long

30:25

gone. Let's talk about what

30:27

you wrote after the election. In addition to

30:30

your early comments, you wrote, the big bright

30:32

side for me is that I agree with

30:34

President Trump on probably 75 to 85% of

30:38

his policy positions, except the tariffs, of

30:40

course. I'm still an old school fiscal

30:43

conservative. So what are some of the

30:45

incoming presidents policy positions that you feel

30:47

comfortable with? Israel, in

30:51

general, anything having to do with culture war

30:53

issues, which I'm sure, you know, I don't

30:55

know your audience, but I assume they're probably

30:57

more liberal than mine disagree with. I

31:00

just think his emphasis on sort of like, I

31:03

too believe that everything in D.C. is broken,

31:05

and I'm for radical change. One of the

31:08

things I want to emphasize, like, my children

31:10

are fully vaccinated. I'm grateful for vaccines and

31:12

doctors, and I would

31:14

never not vaccinate. Like, I, it's very important to

31:16

me. I think anyone who's had a

31:19

parent that died of cancer understands how magical

31:21

doctors are, and they're like, you know, magicians that

31:23

do miracles every day. But I

31:26

too have questions about the food, like what's

31:28

happening with our food and the dyes

31:30

being put in our food and, you know, why are

31:32

some things legal in the unit? Why are Skittles legal

31:34

in the United States and they're not in Europe? Like

31:37

some of the questions that make

31:39

America healthy, again, movement has

31:41

brought up, I have a lot of questions about. I

31:44

think just overall, I agree that I think

31:47

D.C. needs radical change. And I don't know

31:49

if I would have brought it in this

31:51

chaotic package, because again, it's sort of like,

31:53

be careful what you wish for, but. Right.

31:56

Like, and when you burn the house down,

31:58

what rises from the ashes? I

32:00

was just asking you about sort of

32:03

some of the policies and you were

32:05

saying, do you want radical change? One

32:07

of my followers asked Megan how you

32:09

felt about mass deportation and I wanna

32:11

just give this context. President-elect Trump recently

32:13

announced he would declare a national emergency

32:16

and will use military assets to address

32:18

illegal immigration through a mass deportation program.

32:21

His top immigration policy advisor, Stephen

32:23

Miller has also said that military

32:25

funds would be used to build

32:27

vast holding facilities that would function

32:29

as staging centers for immigrants as

32:31

their cases progressed and they waited

32:34

to be flown to other countries.

32:36

But one major impediment to the

32:38

mass deportation operation that the Trump team

32:41

has promised in a second term is

32:43

that immigration and customs

32:45

enforcement or ICE lacks the space

32:47

to hold a significantly larger number

32:49

of detainees than it currently does.

32:52

Anyway, I just give that for the way

32:54

of background for our listeners and gosh,

32:56

I don't know, obviously, and

32:59

I think your dad was very

33:01

involved in trying to address comprehensive

33:03

immigration reform. I'm just remembering with

33:05

Senator Ted Kennedy. It was, yeah.

33:07

And that's something that obviously has

33:09

been sorely needed, Megan, as we

33:11

know, for decades and decades. But

33:14

I don't know, when I hear about

33:16

this and the images it

33:18

conjures for me, it

33:21

seems so inhumane and

33:23

so cruel. And I know, you know,

33:26

I don't know how you felt about the child

33:28

separation policy, but honestly, this,

33:30

I am not an immigrant and

33:32

on their behalf, this strikes such

33:34

fear in my heart. But

33:37

knowing again, full well that

33:39

our immigration system is broken. So

33:41

I don't know, what are your thoughts?

33:45

Well, first I'm more dovish than probably the

33:47

average Republican on this. I think anyone that's

33:49

lived on the border state and you know

33:51

that people are coming here because a lot

33:53

of times they're escaping gang violence and just

33:56

wanting the same opportunity. Civil war,

33:58

right? Civil war. all

34:00

kinds of abuse, like, I mean, anyway.

34:02

Not to get too dark, but all

34:04

the things that are ugly and

34:07

horrific in the world. I think

34:09

the second there are images of children

34:11

being ripped from their parents or families

34:14

literally being separated, it's one thing to talk

34:16

about this in the ether. And to talk

34:18

about on the campaign trail, I think it's

34:20

another thing for it to actually happen. And

34:22

I am actually curious when they say they're

34:24

gonna get the military involved, does that literally

34:27

mean like taking our, I don't know,

34:30

Army National Guard and going in and

34:32

rounding up people, it sounds obviously very

34:34

extreme. I always wish

34:36

for prudence and calm and to

34:39

understand that illegal immigrants in this

34:41

country are God's children looking

34:43

for a better way of life the way

34:45

so many of us did. That way of

34:47

thinking is very passe when it comes to

34:50

Republican circles. It's how I feel, it's how

34:52

I'm always gonna feel. And I have

34:54

great trepidation and I wouldn't go so far as

34:56

to say fear, but I feel the way you

34:58

do that, how does this work

35:00

and what are the images gonna look

35:02

like? Because any mother, it's a

35:05

dystopian idea to have

35:08

families being torn apart

35:10

or somehow moved and I think that it's gonna

35:12

be a really rough wake up

35:14

call for a lot of Republicans that they actually end

35:16

up doing this and the reaction of a lot of

35:18

Americans. I also have questions about

35:21

the Hispanic vote and the historic numbers of

35:23

Hispanic people that voted for President Trump that

35:25

weren't put off by this kind

35:27

of rhetoric or this kind of policy if

35:30

they will feel any different if it actually

35:32

goes into action. Yeah,

35:34

I don't know, it's

35:36

just so scary to me, but we'll

35:38

see what happens there. I

35:40

wanted to move on to the media

35:43

writ large, which what is the media

35:45

anyway these days, right? I mean, but

35:47

you wrote in your sub stack, corporate

35:49

news media is a disaster. Here's how

35:51

I'd fix it. I agree

35:54

wholeheartedly, the media is a mess. I

35:56

think in some ways it's because of

35:58

the fragmentation that's occurred. with

36:00

digital sources and the good news, everybody

36:03

has a platform, the bad news is

36:05

everybody has a platform, that's sort of

36:07

how I feel. But you

36:09

outline some of the problems in your solutions.

36:12

I'd love to get your hot takes, I

36:14

hope that's not triggering from the view. But

36:18

on what you think needs to happen, because

36:21

as somebody who's been in traditional media

36:23

now is doing my own thing, you

36:25

know, I've given this a lot of

36:27

thought, read a lot about it, I'm

36:29

on the board of the Shorenstein Institute

36:31

at Harvard, I just went to my

36:33

first board meeting, obviously this was topic

36:35

number one, so. I'm so

36:37

sorry to be a Philistine, what is

36:39

the Shorenstein Institute? Oh, so it's named

36:41

after Jones Shorenstein, who was a journalist,

36:43

I think her parents named it, she

36:45

died of cancer, and Nancy

36:47

Gibbs, who I love, used to be

36:50

editor of Time Magazine, who's a beautiful

36:52

writer, she is the head of

36:54

the Institute now, and she asked me if I

36:56

would come and be on the board. So basically,

36:59

really it's about media and public policy

37:01

and how we fix media, so this

37:03

has really been top of mind for

37:05

me. And I just interviewed Michael Tomaski,

37:08

who's the editor of The New Republic,

37:10

he wrote a big article about sort

37:12

of the power and the reach and

37:14

the influence of sort of the right

37:17

wing media industrial complex. So

37:19

I've heard sort of his point of view as

37:21

well. So I would love to

37:23

hear sort of what you think, what's

37:26

gone wrong and how to fix it. And

37:28

you have 30 seconds, I'm kidding. Oh

37:31

my God, I'm totally kidding. You're Katie Couric,

37:33

so I feel like your

37:36

perspective is probably more interesting than

37:38

mine, you're an iconic journalist. I'll

37:41

give my hot take, but would you mind giving

37:43

me your hot take too? Sure, sure. I think

37:45

that for me, one of the things I outlined

37:47

was, I really am sick of the token Republican

37:50

on panels on places like CNN and MSNBC. I

37:52

also don't like the token Democrat on

37:55

places like the five friends that work

37:57

on that show. And it's a great

37:59

show, it's just not my. style because

38:02

I think that the politics of America

38:04

is a kaleidoscope, especially like in my

38:06

home state of Arizona, they're more independents

38:08

and libertarians registered to vote than any

38:10

other state in the country. And I

38:12

think you're talking about the Democratic Party,

38:14

you're talking about progressives, more traditional Clinton

38:16

Democrats, McCain Republicans, MAGA

38:18

Republicans, independents, libertarians, like

38:21

that's what America is. And I think the old

38:24

trope of just like one person and we

38:26

pile on them is very dated. I

38:28

just know from my experience and I talked about

38:31

this in my sub stack that, and please subscribe

38:33

to my sub stack, mckayneknotfulstack.com. Thank you. I just

38:35

launched it a few weeks ago. The

38:38

sub stack is so fun, by the way, speaking

38:40

of new media. Yeah. And you know, a lot

38:42

of people are making really nice living writing for

38:44

sub stack. I think it's an awesome platform for

38:46

a lot of people. Yeah, I've been really happy

38:48

there. Anyway, you know, I

38:50

think for me, just having a different variety

38:53

of journalists, I don't think it's good

38:55

to only come from Ivy League schools

38:57

and only have progressives and liberals working.

39:00

I talk about my sub stack how two

39:02

years into the view, I actually had to hire someone

39:04

from outside to be my producer because it was

39:07

just too hard to have people who didn't

39:09

even, you know, sort of like tolerate your

39:11

language, really. Yeah. So I would just make

39:13

it much more diverse in all ways. And

39:16

I mean that racially,

39:18

politically, socioeconomically, you know, in terms

39:20

of geographically, that's one of the

39:22

things we talked about at this

39:25

board meeting, that diversity needs to

39:28

include geographic diversity, life experience diversity,

39:30

you know, small towns and people

39:32

who went to community colleges and

39:35

just represent, as you said, the

39:37

diversity of our country. Yeah, I

39:40

also think respectfully because there's a

39:42

lot of people who are, you

39:45

know, have a lot of experience in media that

39:47

I really trust and like a lot. Again, I

39:49

it's not this is not a whole swath, but

39:51

there's some people that don't think do

39:54

a good job that I think are just making

39:56

things worse that don't, I don't think deserve the

39:58

platforms they have. I would

40:00

love to see some new blood hosting

40:02

some places. I just would also love to

40:05

see, there are journalists out there that are

40:07

still true journalists. I mean, this is a

40:09

very respectful conversation, Katie. I won't always get

40:11

that in different places I go to. I

40:14

think that just having people who are interested

40:16

in the story and interested in what's happening

40:18

in America versus projecting emotion

40:21

in the way that is displayed right

40:23

now is really counterproductive. I

40:25

also have been just fascinated by this

40:27

recent news story not to date this

40:30

podcast. But seeing Joe

40:32

and Mika Brzezinski talk about how they went

40:34

to Mar-a-Lago to meet with Trump,

40:36

I never thought I would see that happen. I

40:38

was fascinated they decided to do that. Whether

40:41

it ends up being good or bad for their career, I

40:43

don't know, but I thought it was certainly an interesting signal

40:46

and symbol that they realized maybe they've

40:48

gone too far. I like

40:50

them and we have a very good mutual friend and

40:52

they've been very kind to me. I don't have a

40:54

problem with Joe and Mika. I'm just saying I was

40:56

interested in it. Yeah, that's interesting.

40:58

I mean, my quick take, I mean, we

41:00

could talk about this for hours, Megan, but

41:03

I wish there would be less fight and

41:05

more fixing. I think that

41:08

journalism has gotten away from

41:10

really talking about solutions. And

41:13

there is so much name-calling, but

41:15

I also feel that

41:19

as the pie became, the

41:22

slices became smaller and smaller, right? The

41:24

model to have ratings and to get

41:26

people to watch, people

41:28

had to appeal to a certain

41:31

segment of the population. That

41:33

means that oftentimes people

41:35

are getting affirmations instead of information,

41:38

right? And Kara Swisher calls it

41:40

engagement through enragement. I

41:42

blame Fox News a lot

41:44

for this because I don't hear a

41:47

lot of legitimate criticisms of Donald Trump

41:49

on Fox News, and it does feel

41:51

like a propaganda arm to me of

41:55

Donald Trump. I think

41:57

that MSNBC obviously is

41:59

talking... to a certain segment

42:01

of the population and probably mainstream

42:04

media in general is more liberal than

42:07

conservative. I think journalists tend

42:09

to be more liberal thinkers.

42:12

And I think it's hard because

42:14

opinion journalism has kind of taken

42:16

over the space, right?

42:18

You don't necessarily have people

42:21

kind of talking. What I've also

42:24

struggled with this, Megan, is that

42:26

how do you cover Donald Trump accurately?

42:29

You know, how do you search for

42:31

truth? And how do

42:33

you do fact-based journalism when

42:36

he traffics in so much

42:38

misinformation? And therein lies

42:40

the rub for me. If you point

42:42

out the things he says that are

42:44

just patently false, then

42:46

you're automatically labeled as biased.

42:50

And that is, to me, the

42:52

conundrum a lot of journalists

42:54

are finding themselves in. Well,

42:57

like, I felt like a — not

42:59

a crazy person, but I definitely have this moment

43:01

of one of the things I have to do,

43:03

and I'm a conservative opinion commentator, so people know

43:05

what they're going to get from me. But I'm

43:08

not someone who drank Kool-Aid and can't see the

43:10

forest for the trees in life. And I had

43:12

a conversation yesterday about why is

43:14

it that Matt Gaetz's ethics report

43:16

isn't something I'm allowed to see when he

43:18

wants to hold one of the most powerful

43:20

positions in U.S. government. I don't

43:22

understand. Why is Speaker Mike Johnson

43:25

saying it's irrelevant? Clearly, something's in

43:27

it that's relevant. And

43:29

the amount of people who are saying,

43:31

you're anti-Maggot, you're trying to hurt Trump,

43:33

you're trying — you know, you're bad,

43:35

whatever, just because I want to know

43:37

what's in the ethics report of the

43:40

very serious allegations against Matt Gaetz, that's

43:42

the part that's, when you're talking about on

43:45

my side, that's the part that really scares

43:47

me, is getting in such an echo chamber

43:49

and such a point that you

43:51

feel like there will be social and career

43:53

retribution if you say something like that out

43:55

loud. And I just feel like sometimes I

43:57

— I feel like I'm in the Twilight

43:59

Zone. Like the fact that I can't have

44:01

a conversation about why I think I wouldn't

44:04

trust Matt Gaetz to babysit my kids, let

44:06

alone be attorney general, to

44:09

a lot of people, that's, I'm

44:11

saying something very untoward. Because you're

44:13

not pledging blind loyalty and fealty

44:15

to Donald Trump, which is honestly

44:18

kind of frightening because that is

44:20

sort of the sign of an

44:22

authoritarian regime taking hold,

44:24

isn't it? I mean, my first

44:26

reaction, and I tweeted this when Matt Gaetz was chosen as, I

44:28

was like, am I going to jail? Because

44:31

I'm not, I mean, I'm joking, obviously, because

44:33

I'm not a MAGA person, but yeah, it's

44:35

really scary. And he's clearly, the choice is

44:37

clearly made because Matt Gaetz is a sycophant

44:39

who will do anything and everything that Trump

44:41

wants. And to me, it's dangerous not to

44:43

have checks and balances in positions

44:45

of power. And I've just been surprised at people

44:48

like Mike Johnson, who were supposed to be, by

44:51

all accounts, a deeply religious man. And

44:53

I was told a more normal person

44:55

in power. And he's taking

44:57

the selfies on the plane, and he's eating McDonald's

44:59

too. And I don't know, I have

45:01

as much criticism for my party as I do the left.

45:03

I just, people have

45:06

just been more interested in my criticism

45:08

of Democrats recently because of the historic

45:10

election loss. But I really

45:12

fear, I really fear the cult of

45:14

personality and the amount of power everyone

45:16

has going forward. I really do. I

45:18

really, like, it's

45:20

really anxiety inducing. If you artists

45:23

think about it in a way

45:25

that life-EMBER the

45:28

year of bonkake?

45:38

That might be pretty happy if you say it.

45:40

But I think it's too serious with things that

45:42

exist. So which day do you feature Mike when

45:45

he's into this events cuz he might save $

45:47

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46:58

Or wherever you get your podcasts. I

47:38

wanted to read something by New York Times

47:40

White House correspondent Peter Baker about what

47:43

Donald Trump has been doing since he

47:45

won the election. Peter writes,

47:48

somehow disruption doesn't begin to

47:50

cover it. Upheaval might be

47:52

closer. Revolution maybe. In

47:54

less than two weeks since being elected again,

47:56

Donald J. Trump has embarked on a new

47:58

campaign to shatter the institutions

48:01

of Washington as no incoming

48:03

president has in his lifetime.

48:05

He's rolled a giant grenade into the

48:07

middle of the nation's capital and watched

48:10

with mischievous glee to see who runs

48:12

away and who throws themselves on it.

48:14

Suffice it to say, so far there have

48:16

been more of the former than the latter.

48:19

Mr. Trump has said that real power

48:21

is the ability to engender fear, and

48:23

he seems to have achieved that. Mr.

48:26

Trump's early transition moves amount to

48:28

a generational stress test for the

48:31

system. If Republicans bow

48:33

to his demand to recess the

48:35

Senate so that he can install

48:37

appointees without confirmation, it would rewrite

48:40

the balance of power established by

48:42

the founders more than two centuries

48:44

ago. And if he gets

48:46

his way on selections for some of the

48:48

most important posts in government, he would put

48:50

in place a loyalist intent on

48:53

blowing up the very departments they

48:55

would lead. He's such a good

48:57

writer, isn't he? I'm like, it's

48:59

very, yes, like a movie scrubbing. I mean,

49:01

do you think that this

49:04

is what Republicans want and

49:06

the people who voted for Donald Trump

49:08

really want? I mean, he is going

49:11

in there with guns blazing, Megan,

49:14

like he wants to blow the

49:16

place up clearly. So

49:18

anyone that's ever made an impulsive decision in their

49:21

life, and I certainly have, I have a

49:23

foot tattoo to prove it. Over that

49:25

moment where you wake up the next day and

49:27

you're like, I have the most hideous

49:29

foot tattoo. I thought it was cool

49:31

in the morning and I still, it's embarrassing. It looks

49:33

like a blob, it's terrible. And I feel like be

49:35

careful what you wish for is very important in this

49:38

moment. Because I too want radical

49:40

change within the norm of understanding what

49:42

radical change can look like. I do not

49:45

want the foundations of the country imploded. I

49:48

do not want people to feel unsafe or unheard.

49:50

And I think the idea of taking a recess

49:52

and not having normal hearings for

49:54

these people is bat

49:57

blank and sane. I know it's a family show, I

49:59

don't wanna share. I

52:01

mean, people talk about the COVID

52:03

vaccine and there's a lot of,

52:05

I think, retrospective

52:08

thinking about what

52:11

moves were made during COVID. But

52:13

whenever people criticize that, for me, Megan,

52:15

I think, well, what if all these

52:17

kids had died? What

52:20

if there had been a very different outcome?

52:22

And I think it's easy to say, you

52:24

shouldn't have done this, you shouldn't have done

52:26

that. For

52:29

me, it's an art in many ways.

52:31

You learn as you go. This was

52:33

a brand new virus.

52:36

And I think that the

52:38

medical professionals in charge did

52:40

the best they could with the information they had.

52:43

And I don't know,

52:46

this whole coulda,

52:48

woulda, shoulda stuff, I think, always

52:51

gives me pause. And I like

52:53

you, you know, I'm very

52:55

touched by cancer, lost my husband and

52:57

my sister. And I

53:00

have such great reverence

53:02

for science and for scientists

53:05

that it's such an affront

53:07

to me when people trash people

53:09

like Anthony Fauci and experts

53:12

and everyone makes mistakes.

53:14

I mean, it's just an imperfect

53:17

exercise to kind of deal with something

53:19

like this. But

53:22

I don't know, I worry about R.F. Gay Jr., I guess,

53:24

is what I'm trying to say. I

53:27

understand how he became as popular as he

53:29

is because I think, again, like in hindsight,

53:31

there's a lot of things that happened during

53:33

COVID, which I would really blame much more

53:35

in like teachers unions than doctors necessarily that

53:37

really radicalized a lot of women in my

53:39

life a lot, especially moms of young children.

53:42

And again, like you said, hindsight's 20-20, you

53:44

know, go back in our time machine, whatever.

53:46

But I do think one of the things

53:48

that's really hard for me is the criticism

53:50

of NIH. And again, I'm not like

53:52

a bureaucrat. I don't know the internal workings of NIH. But

53:54

what I do know is that my dad

53:56

had brain cancer. There's only

53:58

a proton beam, which is this tiny

54:01

little microscopic beam that eliminates

54:03

cancer. They do the laser outside

54:05

the cancer that makes the tumors

54:08

collapse on themselves. And I remember, that's

54:10

where we took my dad to get

54:12

his treatment there in Mayo Clinic. And

54:14

I remember at the time being like,

54:16

this is like alchemy. This is the

54:18

craziest, the fact that this exists and

54:20

this was invented and these nurses and

54:22

these doctors can make tumors disappear with

54:25

this laser is just the most miraculous

54:27

thing. And at the time,

54:29

I remember talking to so many doctors about

54:31

the future of cancer treatment, as I'm sure

54:33

you have too. And there's so much when

54:35

it comes to immune

54:37

therapy and stem cells

54:39

therapy and things that I'm so

54:41

excited about and hopeful for. And

54:43

of course AI is gonna change

54:46

the field dramatically. Yes, and I

54:48

think again, the misunderstanding, if you've

54:50

ever been in a state of

54:52

sheer desperation, which you and

54:54

I have been in, just wanting people to fix

54:56

this for you and to give you hope, the

55:00

thankless things doctors and nurses have

55:02

to go through every day and

55:04

caregivers, I just, that's what the

55:06

problem, the biggest problem I have with all of this

55:08

is that science, like you said,

55:10

is a practice of medicine. And I

55:12

mean, not to give you like TMI, but I had

55:15

to have a hysterectomy like two weeks

55:17

ago. And when it was happening, people don't know

55:19

what that is. Like the doctor puts a camera inside your uterus

55:21

to make sure you don't have like polyps or anything. And I

55:23

was like, this is crazy. In like

55:25

15 minutes, I can mind if there's anything

55:27

wrong with my uterus, like what a world

55:29

we're in. And I just feel like the

55:32

disrespect towards scientists and doctors

55:34

and things like that is very alarming to

55:36

me. And I continue to

55:38

be so grateful for vaccines. Well,

55:41

they have saved, I looked this up, they

55:43

have saved an estimated 154 million lives since

55:45

1974, when

55:49

the World Health Organization launched

55:51

its global immunization program, the

55:54

equivalent of saving six lives

55:56

every single minute. It's

55:58

amazing. As everyone

56:01

or anyone who, you know, has my mother

56:03

talked about this, that, you know, there are

56:05

African nations and places that don't have vaccines

56:07

other than food and water. It's

56:10

the main thing that they want from

56:12

NGOs and places to go in and

56:14

help their communities. And I just think

56:17

it's a really excessive, decadent

56:19

culture that doesn't appreciate

56:21

what we're given. And when you

56:23

hear about, like, outbreaks of measles and things like that,

56:25

it scares the living hell out of me. People

56:28

are worried about polio returning as

56:30

well. I mean, given all that

56:32

we've discussed, so do you feel

56:34

confident that RFK is the

56:36

right person? And by the

56:38

way, I agree, like, chronic health

56:40

problems are killing Americans, all these

56:42

things, obesity. I agree what you

56:44

said about D.I. But

56:47

you know, there are ways to

56:49

address these issues without blowing up

56:52

the entire place. It's

56:55

not my choice. He

56:58

would not be my choice after I interviewed him. He's

57:00

a very pleasant and charming man. But

57:03

I just, it's a lot

57:05

of it is just too woo-woo for me. It's too

57:07

like, you know, I just really rely

57:09

on doctors and scientists who have a lot of record

57:12

and have spent their life dedicated to

57:15

examining and studying health and medicine. And

57:18

yeah, I look, I texted my pediatrician and was

57:20

like, are vaccines, am I something

57:22

that vaccinated my kids? Like, if he becomes,

57:25

you know, the head of this. So it's

57:27

not my choice. What did your pediatrician say?

57:29

Yes. He said yes. But

57:31

it is scary. I mean, we could get an,

57:33

I asked somebody to write a piece for us,

57:35

Jeremy Faust, who's an emergency room doctor in Boston,

57:38

who I talked a lot to during COVID.

57:40

You know, it is like

57:43

to leave getting vaccinated to make

57:45

it a choice rather than a

57:48

mandate, I think has some serious public

57:50

health consequences. I was reading a lot

57:52

about this, you know, like

57:54

strong encouragement versus a mandate and

57:56

kind of what works better. But

57:59

if you don't have herd immunity, it can

58:01

put a lot of people in the community

58:03

at risk. I mean, I'm not a doctor

58:05

or scientist, but I worry.

58:07

I worry about RFK Jr. But

58:09

that's me. No, I need to do it. And

58:11

I also think just character wise, you know, again,

58:14

it's not a family show, but, you know, he had some kind

58:17

of a fair recently

58:19

with a journalist. And, you know, if that's

58:21

what you're spending your time, I do wonder

58:23

about like the focus on

58:25

the issues of the nation. And I think

58:27

again, I'm old fashioned that way, too. Like

58:29

I I like my public officials to keep

58:31

it in their pants. Call me crazy. I

58:34

do too. And I'm but that's but you

58:36

and I are a minority,

58:38

I guess, but I just thought like it's so

58:40

recent and it was with a journalist. And, you

58:42

know, I don't want people with high levels of

58:44

intelligence and access to, you know,

58:46

but there's also some other weird stuff like

58:48

the bear cub and Central Park and also

58:50

crazy shit. I don't want to end this

58:52

on like a dystopian note, but I got

58:55

to screen that movie Civil War that came

58:57

out last year with Kirsten

58:59

Dunson is about a modern American Civil War.

59:01

I saw it. Yeah. I had a very

59:03

when I watched it, I was like sweating.

59:05

I broke out in hives and I was

59:07

like, this is very realistic. And they filmed

59:09

it in the area where I live in

59:12

or it's supposed to be the area I live

59:14

in, like right outside D.C. And it's

59:16

not that I think we're going to go into

59:18

a civil war because I don't I don't actually think

59:20

it's going to happen. But I worry about the complete

59:22

dismantling of everything and

59:25

what happens next. And I just you know, when

59:27

I get into my very dark place, I think

59:29

of Kirsten Dunson in that movie. And again,

59:31

I don't I don't want to be hyperbolic and tell you I think

59:33

we're going into a civil war, but I do worry about, you

59:36

know, there's a lot of good in

59:38

our country, too. And the foundations of the country,

59:40

I think, are the greatest foundations of any country

59:42

in world history. And to just completely

59:46

eliminate it is crazy. I

59:48

wanted to ask you about another Donald

59:51

Trump's picks because she's a good friend

59:53

of yours, and that's Tulsi Gabbard for

59:55

director of national intelligence. Everybody's asking me

59:58

about her. Everybody's out. to be about

1:00:00

her. Really? Well, yeah, I'm

1:00:02

sorry to add to the chorus,

1:00:04

but I know she's your eldest

1:00:06

daughter's godmother. But

1:00:09

there, honestly, I've read a lot of

1:00:11

stuff that gives me pause, and I

1:00:13

wonder if you could talk about it.

1:00:15

And those things specifically are that she

1:00:17

traveled to Syria and met with President

1:00:19

Assad, the authoritarian president of Syria, who

1:00:22

I actually have interviewed. The

1:00:24

day after Vladimir Putin began a

1:00:26

full-scale invasion of Ukraine, she blamed

1:00:28

the United States and NATO for

1:00:31

provoking the war by ignoring Russia's

1:00:33

security concerns. And

1:00:35

after she was named for her role,

1:00:37

a Russian paper wrote a glowing review

1:00:39

saying the CIA and the

1:00:41

FBI are trembling, and that Ukrainians

1:00:43

consider her an agent of the

1:00:45

Russian state. So, Megan,

1:00:49

tell us. Yeah,

1:00:51

I think one of the reasons, so Tulsi and I

1:00:53

met about eight years ago,

1:00:55

and we actually met through Van Jones,

1:00:58

and I had been very critical

1:01:00

of her meeting with Bashar al-Assad, and he texted

1:01:03

me and was like, you don't know her. And

1:01:06

he texted her saying, because her campaign had

1:01:08

answered in a very intense way and said,

1:01:10

you don't know Megan. And he basically set

1:01:12

us up on a friend date. In

1:01:15

that lunch, our first meeting, I felt

1:01:17

so seen by another woman. I felt

1:01:19

like we were both bonded

1:01:22

over what it's like to be demonized in

1:01:24

the media. We both had at the point

1:01:26

gone through fertility issues and

1:01:28

we're bonding over that. We both felt very alone

1:01:30

in so many media spaces. And I

1:01:32

think the main thing that I know about her, and

1:01:34

I know her character, we're very, very good friends. I

1:01:36

talk to her almost every day. The

1:01:38

main thing about her is that she wants

1:01:40

peace in all forms, and she will meet

1:01:42

with Satan himself to get it.

1:01:45

And I believe that every choice she makes

1:01:47

in her life in general is all about

1:01:50

trying to find peace and prevent war. She

1:01:52

is a soldier in the army. I

1:01:54

think she's a lieutenant colonel. And I

1:01:56

always thought of people like Debbie Wasserman

1:01:59

Schultz really think she's a Russian agent.

1:02:01

why hasn't the military done an investigation?

1:02:03

I also wanna know why Bernie Sanders

1:02:05

has put out tweets saying, this is

1:02:07

disgusting slur and defended her against

1:02:09

the accusations that she's somehow

1:02:12

for Russia. One of my

1:02:14

dear friends, Vladimir Karamazov was actually imprisoned

1:02:16

in a Russian gulag for years. He

1:02:18

was by a miracle helped to be

1:02:20

released by a prison exchange with President

1:02:22

Biden. And I think the

1:02:24

idea that I would associate with someone who

1:02:27

was compromised by Russia is insulting to me.

1:02:29

And I also think that I wish everyone would sort

1:02:31

of get out of the habit of saying

1:02:35

Russia is involved for everything like Russia gate, which

1:02:37

ended up being nothing with President Trump. That doesn't

1:02:39

mean we shouldn't be

1:02:41

very wary of Putin and Russia

1:02:44

in general, especially- There were some

1:02:46

shenanigans, I think, in Georgia with

1:02:48

Russian intelligence during this

1:02:50

election, right? There were 30 bomb

1:02:53

threats targeting black voters at a number

1:02:55

of Georgia voting centers that were orchestrated

1:02:57

by the Russians. God. So I mean,

1:03:00

you're right, we can't blame them for

1:03:02

everything, but maybe we can blame them

1:03:04

for a lot of things. I don't

1:03:06

know. I don't know. I

1:03:08

mean, it's very serious. I would never

1:03:10

negate that. Look, she is

1:03:13

someone who evokes very intense reactions on

1:03:15

both sides. I love her very much.

1:03:17

I know the person. I

1:03:19

trust her implicitly. I was very happy when she

1:03:21

was chosen because I don't- I

1:03:23

neither believe those things and I think they're

1:03:25

pretty absurd. And I also think she's

1:03:28

getting a lot of heat because she's a former Democrat. But

1:03:31

I believe she's gonna be easily confirmed. And I

1:03:33

think that people are gonna have to come to

1:03:35

terms with the fact that there are

1:03:38

a lot of soldiers like Tulsi who have been, and

1:03:40

including, by the way, both my brothers, who have been

1:03:42

through generations of war, who are

1:03:44

very war weary and have become much

1:03:47

more isolationist in their view of America's

1:03:49

role globally. Tulsi

1:03:51

and I don't agree on a lot of things. We're

1:03:53

actually very opposite in many ways. She's

1:03:56

hyper healthy, works out all the time, and

1:03:58

I eat McDonald's. We're very opposite

1:04:01

in a lot of ways, but the

1:04:03

core values of who we are are

1:04:05

very similar. And I

1:04:07

wish people would see the side to her that I

1:04:09

know so well, and I feel like she never really

1:04:12

gets the opportunity to be seen as anything in this

1:04:14

like dimensional way that a lot of women in

1:04:17

politics, particularly on the left, get to. And

1:04:20

I love her very much, and I'm very proud

1:04:22

of her. And I understand that

1:04:24

a lot of people have questions, and I'm not

1:04:26

her mouthpiece, obviously, but I just, I'm

1:04:29

good friends with her and I, she's

1:04:31

a really good person and has helped me

1:04:33

through a lot of dark times in my

1:04:35

life. So you think she's misunderstood, but you

1:04:37

don't really agree with some of her policies.

1:04:39

Is that a fair assessment? Sure,

1:04:41

but I agree with more than probably

1:04:44

people think, but she doesn't agree with

1:04:46

mine either. Like we have

1:04:48

healthy, you know, I wouldn't say arguments, but, you

1:04:51

know, we've certainly had many conversations about politics

1:04:53

in the past, but I don't

1:04:55

know if you have anyone like this in your life.

1:04:57

I just don't know anyone else who

1:05:00

has been turned into a caricature in the media,

1:05:02

the way we both have by a lot of

1:05:04

people. And you know, at the time I was

1:05:06

working on The View when we first met and

1:05:08

I just felt really, and she would say the

1:05:10

same thing, we just, I just felt really connected

1:05:12

to her. And I just feel like I really,

1:05:14

really, really know her. I really, really know her

1:05:16

family and she's a really good person. Well,

1:05:19

you bring me to my final question,

1:05:21

which is how can

1:05:23

we have more conversations like

1:05:25

this? How can we have

1:05:27

two people who disagree on a

1:05:30

lot of issues and

1:05:32

how we approach and tackle some of

1:05:34

the thorniest problems in our country and

1:05:38

have civil, respectful conversations?

1:05:40

How can we encourage

1:05:43

other people to do

1:05:45

this, Megan? I mean,

1:05:47

I always lead with love in every part of

1:05:49

my life that I'm capable of. I'm not perfect.

1:05:51

And I certainly have still have a temper and

1:05:54

I can still be like, whatever. I think age

1:05:56

and having kids is true. I just want to

1:05:58

have being a world. that I want my kids

1:06:00

to be in. And this level of division is

1:06:02

not, I think, tolerable

1:06:04

or sustainable. And I think

1:06:07

I'm open to... I will talk to anyone as long

1:06:10

as it's respectful. I will talk to anyone on any

1:06:12

side as long as I know that there's not going

1:06:14

to be screaming and name calling or anything like that.

1:06:16

And I just think you can only lead

1:06:18

by example and control how you behave

1:06:20

and speak. And I also think we

1:06:23

should reward platforms that have

1:06:25

bipartisan conversations. Right in this moment, it's

1:06:27

actually what I'm the most interested in

1:06:30

listening to across the board. I'm interested

1:06:32

in both sides coming together and

1:06:34

discussing where we're at. And I think the

1:06:36

reflection of how bad the ratings are on

1:06:38

MSNBC and CNN right now show that maybe

1:06:40

there's an appetite for more interesting

1:06:44

nuanced conversations. If

1:06:46

people aren't turning news off altogether,

1:06:48

right? Some people just are so

1:06:51

burned out on politics and feel such

1:06:53

a sense of despair. I don't know

1:06:56

if they'd even want to listen to

1:06:58

our conversation. I and I

1:07:00

have friends like that who just can't even listen to

1:07:02

it anymore. But I'm an eternal

1:07:04

optimist. I really am. And I really hope

1:07:06

for the better. And for me, the issues

1:07:09

I have with President Trump and the division,

1:07:11

I think that... And I blame both sides

1:07:13

for the division we're in. But for me,

1:07:15

it's like, there will

1:07:17

only be four years of this. At least for me,

1:07:20

one of the things that has given me solace with

1:07:22

the anxiety I have about the Trump era is that

1:07:25

there is an end point to this. After four

1:07:27

years, he cannot be president again. And at

1:07:29

least... At least not that we know

1:07:31

of, right? Unless he tries to change

1:07:33

the law. Which

1:07:36

he kind of suggested to members of Congress. I

1:07:38

don't know what I'm going to do with that.

1:07:42

Sorry, we're back in the dystopian mode. I

1:07:44

know, sorry. For me, the hypothetical

1:07:47

end point has given me solace. And

1:07:49

I really think there's a lot of

1:07:51

really interesting people in the Democrat Party

1:07:53

that are really being in

1:07:55

amazing figures right now

1:07:57

saying things I really am responding to. And... seem

1:07:59

to really get it. Like who? I

1:08:02

mean, I love Senator Federman. He's my favorite

1:08:04

Democrat. Mayor Pete, I saw something

1:08:07

he did at, I believe, Harvard. Maybe you were there at

1:08:09

the same time talking about the

1:08:11

future. And he's just very, I

1:08:13

don't agree with so much of his policies,

1:08:15

but I love his tone. It's very calm.

1:08:18

It's very nurturing. It's very

1:08:20

like- So intelligent.

1:08:23

Yeah. And he just, he makes

1:08:26

me, he relaxes me. I don't know

1:08:28

if that, sometimes with politicians, just like

1:08:30

their aura and their vibe makes you

1:08:32

feel calm. And I think he has

1:08:34

a really bright future. I always have.

1:08:37

Who else? Seth Moulton. I think he

1:08:39

made some interesting comments recently. Cory

1:08:42

Booker. I still really

1:08:44

think that he's like very measured

1:08:46

and normal and will work with the other side. There's

1:08:48

quite a few I would point to that I think

1:08:50

are, you know, that

1:08:52

unfortunately the most radical sides drown out the

1:08:54

interesting things that they're saying. Well,

1:08:57

Megan, I could talk to you

1:08:59

for a lot longer, but we've gone

1:09:01

on and on. And I really appreciate

1:09:03

you spending time with me. I've really

1:09:05

enjoyed it. I was looking forward to

1:09:07

our conversation and I'm really grateful for

1:09:09

it. So thank you so much. Thank

1:09:12

you, Katie. You're a legend icon. And I

1:09:14

have a baby podcast where I interview people

1:09:16

and I was like, there is a reason

1:09:18

why Katie Couric's Katie Couric, this is like

1:09:20

you are following up, doing like amazing questions

1:09:23

while research. I was like, it was a

1:09:25

reason why. I've had a lot of practice,

1:09:27

Megan, like 40 plus years. I'm

1:09:32

sure you're doing a great job, but again,

1:09:35

you have a sub stack and what is your

1:09:37

sub stack called? Megan

1:09:39

McCain.substack.com. And I have

1:09:41

a podcast called Citizen McCain, which is very

1:09:43

bipartisan too. Since the election, I've only had

1:09:46

Democrats on. Well, look

1:09:48

forward to listening to those episodes as well.

1:09:50

Thanks, Megan. Thank you. And give my best

1:09:52

to your mom too. She's

1:09:55

doing incredible work. She's

1:09:57

in Rome and she's never come back, Katie. I wanted her

1:09:59

to come back. back and she's like, that's all

1:10:01

Trump's over. And I was like, we're just going

1:10:03

to live in Rome? Like, okay. Is she not

1:10:05

going to come back from Rome? Not

1:10:07

till it's over. She's like, she's one

1:10:10

of those people. And I and she's

1:10:12

like, come visit me in Rome. And obviously Rome's incredible. But

1:10:15

I don't know. It's just I think she's just like

1:10:18

she's been more emotionally impacted, obviously, than anyone.

1:10:20

So I think she's just like, peace. Well,

1:10:22

she's done incredible work. Tell everyone what she's

1:10:24

been doing because I don't think everyone knows.

1:10:27

My mother heads the World Food Program and

1:10:29

she was the ambassador of the World Food

1:10:31

Program and then she became the, I

1:10:34

think she has an official title, but she leads it and she

1:10:37

focuses on food security and making

1:10:39

sure that nations like Somalia

1:10:41

get the food that they need. And

1:10:43

literally every time I talk to her

1:10:45

or call her, she's in a different

1:10:47

country and she's very dedicated to her

1:10:50

work and she's a true humanitarian. And

1:10:52

I always say, you know,

1:10:54

I'm so controversial and people love me or hate

1:10:56

me, but everybody loves my mom. Like she's doing.

1:10:59

She's definitely doing God's work. So

1:11:01

thank you. Thank you. Thanks

1:11:12

for listening, everyone. If you have a question

1:11:14

for me, a subject you want us to

1:11:16

cover or you want to share your thoughts

1:11:18

about how you navigate this crazy world, reach

1:11:21

out. You can leave a short message at

1:11:23

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1:11:30

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1:11:32

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The executive producers are me, Katie

1:11:39

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1:11:44

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1:11:49

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