0:04

Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is

0:06

next question. Oh

0:11

my. Here we are a little

0:13

more than a week after the election by

0:15

the time this podcast drops, and

0:18

I don't know about you all, but I'm still kind

0:21

of shaking my head, wondering

0:23

how this happened, what went

0:25

wrong or right for depending

0:27

on where you stand, what

0:30

the Democratic Party did wrong? What did

0:32

the Harris campaign perhaps do wrong.

0:34

I've read so many analysis

0:37

pieces I can't even tell

0:39

you from all different publications.

0:41

Probably some of my followers will

0:43

think, well, Katie, you're reading publications

0:46

that confirm your pre existing

0:48

beliefs, and if that's true, guilty

0:51

is charged. I probably have been reading those

0:53

publications. But I felt

0:55

like one of the best people we could talk to

0:57

about all of this is my friend

1:00

Jensaki. Jen of course, served

1:02

under two administrations, the Obama administration

1:06

the Biden administration, and

1:08

now she is crushing it over

1:10

at MSNBC. I think she's

1:12

a really welcome and much needed voice.

1:15

Although we can talk about the media as

1:17

well with Jen. Jen, gosh, Hi

1:20

so much to discuss.

1:21

How are you?

1:22

I mean, Hi, I have spent

1:25

the last several days just

1:27

as ever. Probably anyone listening has really

1:29

thinking about all of the things you just said,

1:31

reading so many pieces. There's

1:33

a lot of takes out there. A lot of them

1:36

are bad, but some of them are interesting.

1:39

And what I've tried to really force myself

1:41

to do in this moment is be humble

1:44

about what I misread and

1:46

what I didn't see, what many of us misread. I'm

1:48

not the only one, and what it tells us

1:50

about a huge disconnect out

1:52

there from the party with

1:55

There are a lot of reasons.

1:56

Why yes, but I have so many.

1:58

I've tried to be very introspective

2:01

about that and not blame.

2:03

I think there's also a lot of blame gaming going

2:05

on out there, which I don't think. That doesn't mean you

2:07

can't be critical. It just means people

2:10

who say this is the fault of all white women,

2:12

it's like we're fault of Latinos. It's like,

2:14

as you know, Katie, that's not how democracy

2:17

works. I mean, people decide who

2:19

they want to vote for based on who they think is going to best

2:21

represent their views. You either move people to

2:23

do that or you don't. So that's what I've spent the

2:26

last couple of days. For me, it's like digging

2:28

into it and studying and being in the research

2:30

phase, and that's where I feel like I am in

2:32

this moment.

2:33

I also think it's going to be helpful, Jen.

2:36

I think when you started at MSNBC, correct

2:38

me if I'm wrong. I have this bonehead idea.

2:40

I was like, Jen, why don't you do your

2:43

show every weekend from a different

2:45

location. Why don't you go to the

2:47

middle of the country. Why don't you do

2:50

the show from Dayton, Ohio.

2:52

Why don't you do the show from

2:54

Houston, Texas. Why don't you better

2:57

references what the American

2:59

people are thinking and feeling. Now, of course

3:01

I'm patting myself on the back for that idea,

3:04

but honestly, I think you're

3:06

right. I think that the media

3:08

is occupied by coastal elites

3:11

who pretty much all went

3:13

to pretty good schools.

3:15

They don't represent a

3:17

real diversity of backgrounds

3:20

socioeconomically anyway. And

3:22

that's not true. You know, I'm making

3:25

a generalization here, but for the most part,

3:28

and I just feel like they're

3:30

also not reporting out in the field

3:32

as much. I mean, one of the things

3:34

that bugs me when I watch cable news, and

3:37

by the way, we're talking about very small percentage

3:39

of the population that's actually watching cable

3:41

news these days. Is I

3:43

never see them talking to real

3:45

people. They're always sitting at a desk,

3:48

you know, doing a lot of naval gazing.

3:50

I mean that's not to say I don't really appreciate

3:53

hearing what these very smart people have

3:55

to say. You know, I love your show, Jen,

3:57

I love hearing you talk to people.

4:00

But it does feel

4:02

like it is just

4:05

not touching and not talking

4:08

and not sharing stories

4:10

of people's lives. And it's just gotten

4:12

very super

4:15

high level, and nobody

4:18

seems to be really rolling up their sleeves

4:20

and getting out there in the country and talking

4:22

to voters.

4:23

Yeah. There's a lot of reasons for that too,

4:26

as you know. I mean, one thing that's expensive.

4:28

It's expensive. That's one of them. And

4:31

I remember us talking about that. And I have

4:33

tried to go out as much as

4:35

I can and actually spent I mean, I was in

4:37

Michigan a week before the election. I've

4:39

gone out on the road with candidates. You

4:42

do have actual I was in New Hampshire for

4:44

days around the Republican primary, and

4:46

to your point, you do have actual, real conversations

4:49

that make you question and think. One

4:51

of the things I've thought a lot about And I can only speak for

4:53

myself and how I approach things

4:55

moving forward is that you

4:57

get into an easy cycle of what

5:00

is your reaction to this crazy thing Trump

5:02

said? What is your reaction to that crazy thing?

5:04

Trump said? And as you know, and I'd be interested in your thought

5:07

on this, for given your long history, he

5:09

is still a story. He's the president elect of the United

5:11

States. People can't not cover him or not talk

5:13

about him. But I do wonder if

5:15

the react to the crazy thing he said

5:18

is the most informative and right way

5:20

that we should be approaching things.

5:22

Yeah, I think a lot of people are looking at

5:24

that, did journalists And by the way, you

5:26

know, we'll talk about this. Media

5:29

is so fragmented. I always say mass

5:31

media is now at oxymoron. So when you even

5:33

say the media, who and what are

5:35

you talking about? But I see your point.

5:38

I think often they missed the

5:40

forest for the trees, because I think

5:42

the focus was probably a

5:45

little bit more on the candidate

5:47

and his outrageous behavior instead

5:49

of the fans and the people

5:51

who were gravitating and attracted

5:54

to him and why. But wouldn't it have been

5:56

interesting if you had taken

5:59

a Trump's support order a week and really

6:01

gone home with that person and talked

6:03

about their lives and talked about,

6:06

you know, what they were worried about, and talked

6:08

about how they were struggling to raise

6:10

their kids, or talked about all kinds

6:13

of things. You know, this feeling

6:15

of global insecurity and

6:17

pain for all these wars when we have so

6:19

many problems at home. I think it might

6:21

have been really illuminating.

6:23

Jin Well.

6:24

I also think certainly longtime

6:26

Trump supporters are part of it, absolutely,

6:29

But I also think for the Democratic Party

6:31

and also for the media in a different way,

6:33

And I want to come back to that in a second. It's

6:36

people who left the Democratic Party

6:38

who had long supported Democratic

6:40

candidates or Democratic policies and

6:43

decided they weren't being heard anymore.

6:45

And those people maybe they stayed home.

6:48

Maybe they voted for Trump, but maybe they didn't

6:50

vote at all. And there's a group that I feel

6:52

like wasn't heard or listened to either.

6:54

But that's not a new phenomenon, Jen,

6:57

I mean, we've seen sort of this,

6:59

this shift by blue collar, working

7:01

class folks in this country moving

7:03

towards the Republican Party. And

7:06

maybe it would have looked hollow. But I

7:08

have a friend and we talk about this stuff all the

7:11

time. We were like, why isn't Kamala Harris

7:13

going out and talking to more

7:15

factory workers. Why isn't she like

7:18

putting on a hard hat and really

7:20

talking to people everyday

7:22

people a little bit more. I think she

7:24

could have done that throughout the administration.

7:26

But what were we talking about.

7:28

I have so many things on my headshet and I

7:31

don't want to get off topic of What we were talking about is

7:33

like having the conversations with the people

7:35

who really I mean. The other thing I think

7:37

and I don't want to get off the topic of working class

7:40

voters because I think that is a big Yes, you're right, the trends

7:42

have been moving. In the trends they've been moving. I

7:44

do think this was a very startling outcome

7:47

in terms of the big

7:49

shifts among many different demographic

7:52

groups, Latino men, young

7:54

people. I mean, it was not just one, it was not

7:56

just white working class voters. It was beyond

7:58

right, which I think is something that's important

8:00

to be part of the conversation. The other thing

8:02

I think that's important to reflect on is

8:05

just a misread of abortion politics

8:07

and what I mean by that is, the

8:10

majority of the country does believe in

8:12

a woman's right to make choices about her own healthcare,

8:15

bodily autonomy, whatever you want to call it, abortion

8:17

whatever. Seven states

8:20

voted to protect abortion

8:22

rights and still voted for Trump, right, and

8:24

there was this assumption. I'm not the only one,

8:27

but I'm just reflecting on my own assumptions that were

8:29

inaccurate, that both people who voted

8:31

to protect it or felt strongly about it would

8:33

recognize that he was a person who opposed it,

8:35

and that's not.

8:36

True, and why didn't they?

8:38

I am also a believer. We don't know all the answers yet. So

8:40

this is how I've thought about it to day. How

8:43

I've thought about it to date is either there

8:45

is a belief that he wasn't

8:48

a believer in abortion band and he sort of said

8:50

different iterations of that over the course of time, despite

8:52

his role in nominating

8:55

Supreme Court justices who did implement

8:57

that policy or did rule that way.

9:00

People may have just this is why it's interesting talk

9:02

to these people, and I don't know. This is why I don't know the answer yet.

9:04

May have made had the view that I can protect

9:07

abortion rights this way, but I still

9:09

think the economy is nobody's hearing me,

9:11

and he hears me better, so I'm going to do both. I'm

9:14

not sure. I don't know that we entirely

9:16

know, but I think there was an

9:19

overconfidence because of these special

9:21

elections and because of the

9:23

midterms where there is a smaller turnout,

9:25

So perhaps the more exercised, excited people

9:27

turn out, and a belief it was going to replicate

9:30

itself. It didn't. There's a lesson

9:32

in that somewhere. And I don't think we know all the answers yet.

9:35

I don't think he does give out the

9:37

vibe, if you will, which seems to be

9:40

the word of the year, that he

9:42

feels super strongly about limiting

9:45

abortion rights.

9:46

Right.

9:46

I think people see his lifestyle, but then

9:48

you do look at the Supreme Court, then you do

9:50

look at JD. Vance and

9:52

you're like, how can you not be worried

9:55

about this? And you know it's interesting.

9:57

I know Ronald Reagan is how old I am, jen

10:00

and you know he campaigned a lot on

10:02

restricting abortion, I think in order to win

10:04

over the evangelical vote, and then

10:07

once in office, he basically

10:09

made it Priority number seventy nine,

10:11

like nothing was really ever done about

10:13

it, So maybe people

10:16

just since from Donald Trump, this wasn't

10:18

an issue he cared about. But on the other hand,

10:20

Jen, I mean, hello, you look

10:23

at the Supreme Court justices and

10:25

you look at you know, Dobbs, and

10:27

you're thinking, wait, how

10:30

can you compartmentalize these

10:32

things?

10:33

That is my question. And in what's different

10:36

now from the Reagan administration

10:38

is, of course that the DBS decision

10:40

happened. So states have the ability,

10:43

as you know, and you've been talking about, to put

10:45

in place their own laws, and we've seen the impact

10:47

of those. So when Trump or

10:49

Jade Vans or whomever it may be, says it

10:52

should go back to the states, well we

10:54

see how that goes. What it means is we have a country

10:56

where half the states have restrictive

10:58

laws that could lead to deaths

11:01

in some cases women having sepsist,

11:03

doctors being prosecuted, and half the states

11:05

that don't. And that's what's also different.

11:08

But why didn't that resonate with more people?

11:10

Which brings me back to the information

11:13

ecosystem. Yeah, you know, I mean

11:15

I think it is so fragmented. You

11:17

can create your own digital diet

11:20

or media diet, and you

11:22

know, I heard so many people saying, well, it's

11:24

fine to let the states decide as

11:26

if the people of those states would

11:29

be in a position. Well, they were

11:32

in some cases right with a referenda

11:34

that were voted on this go round.

11:37

But somehow these stories

11:39

did not penetrate or

11:42

did not get through a lot

11:44

of voters about the dangers of

11:46

leaving it to states who would prohibit

11:48

abortion even in cases

11:50

of rape, incest or when the mother's

11:53

life is in danger. There are states like that out

11:55

there, right chen.

11:57

Now, I think I have some ends

12:00

I don't have, but I'll just be like a kumble about

12:02

the place I don't have answers. And this is the place I

12:04

feel like I need to do more studying and understanding.

12:06

Is the disinformation space. I

12:08

do think that unquestionably to me, you

12:11

know, one of the things that's changed even

12:13

since I got involved in politics is

12:16

just the rise of the percentage of people who get

12:18

their information off of platforms

12:21

that have no fact checking mechanism

12:23

and no accountability for having

12:25

disinformation spread right right,

12:28

And as you know, well, and I mean when I got

12:30

started in democratic politics,

12:33

you know, most of it was like local TV ads.

12:35

That was what it was about. Obviously national TV,

12:37

local print, local TV

12:40

is held to a higher standard of

12:42

accountability than social media platforms

12:44

in terms of having accurate information

12:47

on their platforms. That is crazy,

12:50

And so it is, how does

12:52

it change, How are people held to account?

12:54

Laws have to change. I don't even know

12:56

the total answer to it, but that seems

12:58

to me to be a core issue. The other issue

13:01

I think that is a real one is I

13:03

don't think Joe Rogan deserves like one

13:05

hundred percent credit of love Donald

13:08

Trump being elected, but it

13:10

was a misunderstanding of kind of also

13:13

how people are getting their information and

13:15

an undervaluing of some of

13:17

those platforms that Trump was doing

13:20

that either don't really exist on the other

13:22

side or not

13:24

in those not in the numbers

13:27

exactly exactly.

13:28

Yeah, Yeah, And I also think, I mean,

13:31

again, my head is swimming with so many

13:33

with so many things that I've been trying

13:36

to process over the last few days.

13:38

You know, there's this whole theory about

13:40

a huge backlash by

13:43

young men and some older

13:45

men, and perhaps that explained

13:47

some of the Latino vote to

13:50

this idea that women are making

13:52

so many more strides. I mean, ostensibly,

13:55

you look at medical schools and law schools

13:57

and that you know, there was me

13:59

too, there was Black Lives Matter, and

14:01

suddenly I think people were still

14:04

angry about affirmative action when it

14:06

was in place, and they're sort of like,

14:09

I thought this country was a meritocracy,

14:11

and now I'm feeling screwed.

14:14

Yeah, And I think the feeling

14:16

screwed takes many forms,

14:18

right, And maybe people who

14:21

it is sexism for wouldn't

14:23

even admit to themselves that it's

14:25

sexism, right.

14:26

I think that's so right, Jen.

14:27

I think that some people don't even recognize

14:30

their implicit bias. I have a friend who said,

14:33

I'm just worried that Kamala Harris doesn't

14:35

have the stature to deal with

14:37

world leaders And I thought, wow, this was

14:39

a very successful woman, and

14:41

I thought, maybe just replace stature

14:44

with penis.

14:44

Yes, I was so honestly

14:47

so.

14:49

That maybe replace stature with

14:51

phenis got the mate out there.

14:54

But it was so it was so perplexing

14:57

to me, and I was like, Oh,

14:59

this this is someone who doesn't realize

15:02

her deep seated implicit

15:04

bias against female leadership.

15:08

Yes, and that is of it's

15:11

so hard to measure because

15:13

people don't even admit it to themselves, right,

15:16

and it is I mean, in my

15:18

on the Latino men part of this,

15:20

which I think there's not one answer for.

15:22

But I agree, and I think we have to be careful

15:25

stratifying society and the

15:27

way we do with polls. I think Mike Murphy,

15:29

I heard John Heilman say this on Bill

15:32

Maher. So I'm quoting a quote

15:34

of a quote, but Mike Murphy

15:36

said, you know, when are we going to just call Latino

15:39

men men? I mean it almost

15:41

underscores or exacerbates

15:44

this notion of identity politics, right.

15:47

Yes, And I think you know

15:49

it depends on also,

15:51

like no group is monolithic. Women

15:53

are not monolithic. Clearly white women are

15:55

not monolithic. But Latino men

15:57

are not monolithic either. And the thing

16:00

that Latino men in Florida

16:02

might be grappling with, including like this

16:04

notion of you know, socialism

16:07

and communism and what it means

16:09

if you came from a country where that was

16:11

a dominant issue like Cuba, right

16:14

in Cuba. And also Christina Landon,

16:16

I'm going to quote someone now who sits next to me. She's a Telemundo,

16:18

longtime Telemundo reporter, and I had dinner

16:21

with her maybe three nights before the election, and

16:23

she said to me something that stuck with me, which

16:25

is like, sometimes the issues that democrats

16:28

think are going to work for them, like

16:30

democracy and abortion rights,

16:33

work the reverse way amongst someone

16:35

because there's sometimes more conservative social

16:37

values. Anyway, It's my point

16:40

is there's not a monolithic take

16:42

here. I've also in my kind of research

16:44

studying phase of this because this is my coping mechanism.

16:47

Yeah, I've been reading Foala

16:50

Ramos's book. It's called The Defectors,

16:52

and it's about the

16:54

Latino men who have become

16:57

maga and why now

16:59

it's not She's very, very humble in the book, but it's

17:01

not conclusive. But part of it she talks

17:03

about identity and identifying as an American

17:06

versus identifying as an immigrant, and

17:08

that's an interesting part of the conversation

17:10

too. But I don't know the total answer, but

17:13

I think it's one that is worth everyone

17:16

continuing to learn and explore and

17:18

listen more about.

17:19

I think that's true because I think often

17:22

these pundits make these pronouncements

17:24

right that are too general,

17:27

that treat communities as

17:29

monolithic and not as separate

17:32

people, you know, separate even

17:34

individual people and families,

17:37

right, who have had very

17:40

different experiences, as you said,

17:42

certainly within the Latino

17:45

community.

17:52

If you want to get smarter every morning with

17:55

a breakdown of the news and fascinating

17:57

takes on health and wellness and pop

17:59

culture, sign up for our daily newsletter,

18:01

Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric

18:04

dot com.

18:14

What do you think about all the finger pointing

18:16

at wokeness?

18:17

Now?

18:17

First of five, I hate that word, and I

18:19

feel like it's been a bit

18:22

overstated, but there does

18:24

seem to be an increasing

18:26

intolerance for being

18:29

told how you're supposed

18:31

to think and being told you're

18:33

less than because you don't think a certain

18:35

way.

18:36

I think that's it for me, and again

18:38

I don't, But how I've thought about it

18:40

is nobody likes to be condescended

18:43

to or told that they have to

18:46

hit a certain litmus test of things to be

18:48

welcomed and invited in the party. And I

18:50

think sometimes people feel that way about the Democratic

18:52

Party. And I do think that some

18:55

of the positions that Vice President

18:57

Harris took when she was running for president in twenty

18:59

nineteen, which I actually don't

19:01

think are her positions because they weren't before and

19:03

they weren't after. And there's an inauthenticity

19:06

to that six months of her life, right,

19:08

But which is a lesson for lots of people running

19:11

for office. Be authentic to what you believe.

19:13

Yeah, my sister used to say. I don't

19:15

know if you knew my sister was running for lieutenant

19:17

governor with I think you and

19:19

I have talked about this with Mark Warner.

19:22

And then she got diagnosed with pancreatic

19:24

cancer and had to drop out, sadly tragically.

19:27

And you know, Emily used to say to

19:29

me, when you run for office, you have to be

19:31

willing to lose. I think what she

19:33

meant is you have got to adhere

19:36

to your core values who you are

19:39

as a person, and if you lose,

19:41

then you're not meant to win. And

19:44

you know, and I so respected that, and

19:46

I think it speaks to as you were saying the

19:48

twenty nineteen positions. But can I just add

19:51

something, Jen, because I wonder if you've also thought

19:53

about this. Seems to me people

19:56

kind of forget that moment in time

19:58

too. I mean it was

20:01

sort of right on the heels of

20:04

me too, right on the heels of Black

20:06

Lives Matter. I think there were forces

20:09

that were pulling everybody

20:12

and I don't want to necessarily to say to

20:14

the left, but maybe it was to the left. But

20:17

this kind of realization, this feeling

20:19

that you know, if you're a

20:21

white American, you're to blame

20:24

and there's something wrong with you, and

20:26

that you're part of the problem, and

20:29

you know, the whole Karen thing and all

20:31

that. I wonder if

20:33

her positions were in a way informed

20:36

by that environment that

20:39

we were experiencing, and

20:42

that this election in

20:44

a way was a repudiation

20:47

or an expression of some of those feelings.

20:50

Does that make sense at all?

20:51

Yeah, Look, I think there is a

20:54

huge swath of the population

20:57

voters, voters i should say, who

20:59

didn't feel heard

21:02

or connected with the Democratic

21:04

Party messaging and the top

21:06

of the ticket. And that is not

21:08

it's a divided country all the things. But there

21:11

are policy issues that

21:13

should be helpful to the very

21:15

same people who voted against

21:18

the Democratic Party platform and ticket

21:21

right, including advocacy for

21:23

a minimum wage, including like

21:25

raising taxes on the highest income in corporate America.

21:28

So that disconnect tells

21:30

you it's about something bigger, Right,

21:32

It's about feeling left

21:34

out of the party, not feeling heard, feeling

21:37

ignored. There are lots of things

21:39

that could be the reasoning for it. But yes,

21:42

I do think that is certainly

21:44

a part of it. You know, I

21:46

also think there have been some major

21:49

shifts, and immigration is one

21:51

of them. And this is where I'm kind of like

21:53

my personal views aside. You'd have to

21:55

put them aside when you're looking at the

21:57

political spectrum, right, immigration

22:01

and the issue has become the country has

22:03

become increasingly conservative on

22:05

that issue, right. And I

22:07

look at even the bipartisan border bill

22:10

that obviously didn't move forward, that was

22:12

an incredibly conservative

22:14

bill.

22:15

I know.

22:15

I wish they had made a point of

22:18

how Trump convinced Republicans

22:20

not to even vote on it because it would

22:22

weaken his ability to weaponize

22:24

immigration.

22:25

They've made me so mad.

22:28

I may yes they tried.

22:30

It always felt like a hard message

22:32

to me, not in a fair way, but because you're explaining,

22:35

like how he prevented a legislative process from

22:37

moving forward. But what stuck out

22:39

to me about that bill is I think only five

22:42

or six Democratic senators voted against it.

22:44

I think it would have been twenty or twenty five a

22:46

couple of years ago. So to your point about

22:49

where kind of the shifts have been,

22:51

that's one of the areas. And remember that same

22:53

twenty nineteen primary was when nearly

22:55

everybody on stage raised their hand that they would

22:58

decriminalize border crossings. Right. The

23:00

politics on that have changed a lot, and

23:03

I think it is also related to

23:05

feeling ignored, left

23:07

behind by a broad

23:09

swath of working class America. That's

23:11

part of Also.

23:12

I think it might be reflected by

23:15

you know what was mostly derided

23:18

by some of those border

23:20

states and governors in

23:22

terms of taking some of

23:25

these immigrants and putting

23:28

them on planes and sending them to New

23:30

York City and sending them to other

23:32

areas around the world. And I

23:34

remember I have a friend who's pretty conservative

23:37

who lives in Florida, and I said, what do you think

23:39

of that? And she said, I thought it was great.

23:42

And I think the point is that,

23:45

you know, listen, we can't

23:47

have completely porous borders, right,

23:49

you know, there has to be some system

23:52

for immigration. And I think one

23:54

of the other things that was undercovered

23:57

was the strain on social services

23:59

that a huge influx. And

24:01

now, of course it's not they're eating the dogs,

24:03

they're eating the cats situation in that

24:06

gross, you know, bigoted

24:08

way, But there is a genuine

24:11

concern for I think a lot of these communities

24:14

that can absorb the number

24:16

of people who are coming in, and

24:19

it can lead to more homelessness, you

24:21

know, as you know, and I think

24:23

it constrains school systems and

24:25

hospitals. So, you know, I would

24:28

have liked to have seen that story be told

24:30

and then talk to the

24:32

candidates about like what

24:35

should be done and along those lines.

24:37

Since you were in the Biden administration, why

24:39

didn't they do more? And why

24:41

when he was elected jin was there almost

24:44

a reversal almost to come

24:46

on in This is my impression

24:48

and you can correct the record if I'm wrong.

24:51

Sort of this overreaction to

24:53

the build the Wall rhetoric

24:56

that led to too big of

24:58

an influx immigrants,

25:00

you know, getting rid of the remain in Mexico policy

25:03

and all those things. So was

25:05

that kind of an f you to Trump? And

25:08

in retrospect, was that not

25:10

the right thing to do?

25:12

Well? So a lot of things on

25:14

this I think sort

25:17

of everybody's at fault in Washington

25:19

in some ways because immigration

25:21

is such a politically charged issue that

25:24

people are unwilling to compromise

25:27

on it and have real negotiations and discussions

25:29

about it. I mean, Biden proposed

25:31

an immigration bill that included increased border

25:33

security and a more humane asylum

25:36

processing the first day, right right,

25:38

no one would discuss it, No one

25:40

would come to the White House and meet with him about it.

25:43

I'm not saying that he's blameless. I'm

25:45

just saying like that tells you a lot about

25:47

politics. Often brought that up during the

25:49

campaign. Yeah, that is true. What is also

25:52

true is that because the COVID restrictions

25:54

were in place for so long, that

25:57

was in many ways artificially

25:59

keeping the numbers lower until

26:03

they were flipped back. And then during

26:05

that period of time, there was the negotiation

26:07

with Mexico about re implementing the

26:10

Remain in Mexico program, which was

26:12

there was a lot of criticism of and a lot of people

26:14

who hated that, especially from

26:16

the left. So I think there

26:19

was a delayed reaction

26:22

to where clearly the country

26:24

was moving on immigration by

26:27

I don't actually not really Joe Biden,

26:30

but a lot of people in the system

26:32

and the Democratic Party within

26:35

the caucuses, and

26:37

it wasn't very clear to me that

26:40

it had moved massively until that bipartisan

26:42

border bill. So yes, hindsight's

26:45

always twenty twenty. But I think looking

26:47

now, there are aspects

26:49

of how the party should proceed

26:51

from here which I think this

26:53

election should be partly informative

26:56

about, including acknowledging that

26:59

the bore and having a secure border

27:02

is a part of what the Democratic Party messaging needs

27:04

to be proactively, you know. Yeah.

27:06

On the other hand, though, I think we should point out

27:09

how Donald Trump and the

27:11

party exploited the immigration

27:13

issue with false information about

27:16

the crimes that were committed and

27:19

really misrepresented the

27:21

fact that actually immigrants

27:24

commit fewer crimes than native

27:26

foreign citizens in this country. But

27:29

I think it just got so twisted

27:31

and exploited, and the

27:33

fear and the you know, fentanyl

27:36

and all that stuff. I think

27:39

it got mixed up in one big

27:41

bowl and made people

27:44

just terrified, and to

27:46

the point where for a lot of Americans,

27:49

rounding up people and having a mass deportation

27:52

of thirteen million immigrants

27:55

sounded like a good idea, which.

27:58

Is wrapping my head around

28:00

that particular conclusion is one

28:02

that's been a particular, a very

28:04

perplexing one to grapple. I

28:06

mean, when you also listen to

28:08

focus groups and things, people will when they

28:11

learn more about it, they don't love it, right,

28:13

So, which is a relief,

28:15

I suppose. But I'm glad you brought all of that

28:17

up. And I think that the pieces of

28:19

this that this is a perfect disinformation

28:22

example, right. I mean, actually,

28:24

the border numbers have been down over the last

28:26

couple of months.

28:27

And I even looked up last night, you

28:29

know about crimes, you know, the crime

28:32

rate among the immigrant population,

28:34

and I thought I would see what I saw with my

28:36

own eyes, but that it was just incredibly

28:40

and cruelly manipulated

28:43

by the Trump campaign to a point

28:45

that it was really grotesque.

28:46

Yeah, as has crime numbers in major

28:48

cities, which is not where actually crime has

28:51

gone up. And there is

28:53

also we are still the United States of America,

28:55

where we are a country of immigrants, right.

28:58

There is still a humanity side of this

29:00

that I know.

29:01

But it's it's really it's

29:04

perplexing and disturbing

29:06

that. You know, I saw something on social

29:09

media. You might have seen it too, Jen, because I have a

29:11

feeling we're probably fed the same content.

29:15

But it was I think it was an Asian

29:17

comedian who was interviewing a white

29:19

guy, probably in his sixties at a Chinese

29:22

restaurant and the

29:24

guy basically said I don't

29:26

want the white race to be replaced.

29:28

I mean it was sort of white nationalists

29:31

rhetoric that has been somewhat

29:33

normalized.

29:34

I want to know how it is for Donald

29:37

Trump when you're so into facts, because

29:39

his entire campaign is not based

29:42

in facts.

29:42

It was all based in propaganda and

29:45

emotion.

29:46

I voted for Donald Trump for one reason only.

29:49

His policies, if

29:52

implemented, would slow

29:54

the dispossession of whites in the United

29:56

States. If

29:58

you were to deport all illegally, if

30:01

you were to think very

30:03

hard about letting in any mushoms,

30:05

all of this would slow the

30:08

rate at which whites are becoming a minority.

30:11

I did a documentary series for NATCHIU

30:13

in twenty eighteen, and one of the subjects

30:16

was white anxiety. And you know,

30:18

I think there are a lot of people when you

30:20

think of the fact that there is

30:22

going to be a majority minority population

30:25

by twenty forty four in this country, really

30:28

feel like that as a white American,

30:31

I'm losing my place

30:33

in this country.

30:34

And I don't think.

30:35

People people are excited,

30:39

or a lot of people are not excited about

30:41

a pluralistic society.

30:43

Yeah, in this group and it just breaks

30:45

my heart.

30:46

It breaks my heart too. It is where

30:48

the country has been headed for

30:50

some time, right, And there

30:53

is the left behind aspect

30:56

of this, which there's lots of reasons for,

30:58

but social media is one of them right

31:00

where people are looking at social

31:02

media and thinking everybody has it

31:04

better than me, right, and that includes

31:08

I think a lot of communities where

31:10

the factory where their grandparents worked,

31:13

right, No longer is the factory

31:15

that's driving an amazing life

31:17

right where.

31:18

No, totally.

31:19

I talked to somebody in Nebraska

31:21

about this who worked at a meat packing plan.

31:24

He was paid, you know, a good

31:26

salary where he could raise his kids

31:28

and have a middle class life

31:31

in this small rural town in Nebraska.

31:34

And then union started

31:36

losing power. They started importing.

31:38

The company started importing lower

31:40

wage workers from Mexico and other

31:43

countries. And then another

31:45

guy talked to in Nebraska was like, they're

31:47

doing jobs that a lot of Americans

31:50

don't want to do. They don't want to

31:52

work in a meat processing plan. And

31:54

a lot of the employees who are immigrants

31:57

are grateful to be able to,

31:59

you know, have a full time, steady

32:01

job.

32:02

So it's so complex, isn't it.

32:04

Jen, It is incredibly complex.

32:06

I think lots of different communities

32:09

see this differently. The business community

32:11

obviously sees this differently from people

32:13

in communities that have changed massively. Even

32:16

the communities that have changed massively, a lot of people in

32:18

those communities and may not want to do those jobs. To

32:20

your point, you know, there's also issues

32:23

which I think we're going to see, not exact

32:25

replication, I hope not, but some of. I mean, the

32:27

person who Trump just named to be his

32:29

borders are is the person who is responsible

32:32

for family separations. Is that what

32:34

people want?

32:35

Well?

32:35

Did you hear that guy on the podcast I

32:37

forget his name who said,

32:40

Yeah, we're going to round up We're going to deport

32:42

grandmothers, were going to deport

32:44

wives and husbands, We're going to put children

32:47

in cages. It's going to be glorious.

32:49

Do you know who I'm talking Oh?

32:50

Yes, Mike Davis. Am I

32:52

thinking he's the right person?

32:54

Yes?

32:55

And the guy I'm talking about is Holman, who

32:58

was announced as the as the border czar,

33:01

who basically has said governors

33:03

others who if you try to resist me, will

33:06

come double our numbers of law enforcement

33:08

who come to your state. Who's talked about

33:11

re implementing workplace

33:14

raids. Is that what people

33:16

want in these communities. I

33:18

think we'll see, and I don't wish that upon

33:21

any community, but I do think that we're going to

33:23

see in the coming months

33:25

what people voted for.

33:26

What do you think about people speaking of that,

33:29

like Gavin Newsom and Governor

33:31

Pritzker trying to figure

33:33

out ways to protect their states

33:36

from certain policies that the Trump administration

33:38

wants to enact.

33:40

I think that is going to be one. To me, it's

33:42

one of the most interesting spaces to watch,

33:45

as much as I think many of the people who voted

33:47

for Kamala Harris and mail millions

33:49

of Democrats independents out there feel very

33:52

lost for Lorne looking for property

33:54

in Canada. Whatever they're doing right now.

33:56

Well there, I think, especially because they're the

33:58

guard rails of disappeared, you know, with

34:01

the House, the Senate, the you know, judiciary,

34:04

the executive branch is like, fuck

34:06

me, what are.

34:07

We supposed to do?

34:07

Exactly?

34:08

So excuse my French every week, that's all.

34:10

Right, don't worry. Yes, So to

34:12

me, it is interesting for two reasons.

34:15

One is that to me is one of the guardrails

34:17

is governors in these states who

34:19

are already conveying they're going to push

34:22

back more heally in Massachusetts it's another one

34:24

of them.

34:25

But isn't that dangerous on one level?

34:27

I mean, it takes a lot of hutzpa to do that,

34:29

because I know Kathy Hokeel got on

34:31

the phone with Donald Trump, and you know

34:34

that isn't without risks in terms

34:36

of what retribution he

34:39

could level at certain states.

34:40

Right, that's true. But I think

34:43

these governors are showing who's got

34:45

the hutzpah right and who

34:47

is going to do everything they can

34:49

to lead and protect to

34:51

the best of their ability, the people in their states.

34:54

I also think it's interesting because right

34:56

now there's no leader of the Democratic

34:58

Party, and that is a

35:01

vacuum, but a good one because

35:03

people are going to emerge, right

35:05

I don't know who they are. We'll see,

35:08

but some of them, maybe some of these governors who

35:10

push back, we'll see.

35:11

Well, I mean, Gavin Newsom, what a surprise,

35:14

you mean, he's has national ambitions.

35:16

But other than that, But

35:18

other than Gavin Newsom,

35:20

and I guess who are some of

35:22

the people Jen You're going to be keeping an

35:24

eye on in terms of rising stars

35:27

we wanted to do a whole series with

35:30

and it kind of fell apart. But I thought

35:32

it would have been so smart to say, you know,

35:34

everyone's bemoaning the fact that there aren't

35:36

enough leaders, and I wanted to say, well, here's

35:38

some people who are doing great things.

35:40

Keep your eye on these folks.

35:42

But it didn't. It didn't come together.

35:44

But you still do that. Should

35:47

do what we're doing it. We're doing

35:49

it. I mean, we just had you know, I think there are a lot

35:51

of governors. But I also will say, and I'll come back

35:53

in a second. We just had the new mayor of Tulsa,

35:55

Oklahoma on yesterday, and

35:58

first African American mayor, and that's city's

36:00

history, given the history of Tulsa.

36:03

A pretty remarkable young guy,

36:05

so compelling and interesting. We

36:07

also had Justin Jones and Mallory

36:09

mcmarrow on are those people all

36:12

going to be president in four years?

36:13

I don't know who Justin Jones and Mallory

36:15

are so.

36:15

Well here now I'm going to tell you so. Justin Jones

36:18

is a state rep in Tennessee. He was one of the Tennessee

36:20

three.

36:21

Oh oh, I know of him, right.

36:23

He is incredibly compelling

36:26

and powerful and has been fearless

36:28

in fighting for INSUC believes in a red state.

36:30

Mallory mcmarrow you should check her out on Instagram

36:33

because she's been answering reader questions

36:35

or viewer questions hard ones. She's

36:38

a state senator in Michigan. She

36:40

ran in twenty eighteen after Trump

36:42

won in twenty sixteen, and she I

36:45

talked to them because I think it is important for

36:47

people to see new faces and different faces

36:49

and inspiring faces and people who

36:51

are fighting back. There weren't number of

36:53

people who won in states that Trump won, I

36:56

mean, including a re election. Dammy

36:59

Baldwin won reelection right in Nevada,

37:01

Jackie Rose in one reelection. Alissa

37:04

Slatkin is a new senator from Michigan.

37:06

There are now two black women who are senators.

37:09

Those were not Trump one states, but still inspiring.

37:12

But in terms of rising stars, some of it

37:14

is we don't entirely know yet. And what's

37:16

cool about democracy is we don't

37:18

actually pick you and I as much as we've done this

37:20

for a long time, you know. But some

37:22

of the people I think will be interesting to watch, I

37:24

mean obviously knew Someome Pritzker more.

37:28

Less more more Maryland everybody

37:30

and very inspiring life

37:33

story, very charismatic guy.

37:34

Very Yeah, he did a full University

37:36

of Maryland football practice. That's not the most

37:39

important thing, but you know, an interesting

37:41

thing and shotgunna beer for people who

37:43

think that's compelling. Some will obviously

37:46

Governor Shapiro, but I

37:48

think it's it could be beyond that, you

37:50

know, I think there's mayors who are

37:52

interesting, there are younger state

37:54

members of Congress who are interesting. And

37:56

I think it's just going to be interesting to see who rises,

37:59

because this is the vacuum means people

38:01

rise, some rise who you don't know of,

38:03

some rise and fail who you think are

38:05

going to be the next thing. And that's what's interesting

38:07

about this moment.

38:09

And some come out of nowhere, like Jimmy

38:11

Carter out of planes Georgia, like who knew,

38:13

right, he knew.

38:14

And in some ways differently. But Barack

38:16

Obama, I mean, he had given that speech

38:19

in two thousand and four, right, Carrie lost,

38:21

but like nobody thought he was going to be the nominee.

38:23

No one thought he would have a chance of winning. He

38:25

did four years later, So we'll see.

38:28

Do you know, how do you think Joe Biden is feeling

38:30

right now.

38:32

Oh,

38:34

I have not spoken with him, and not that

38:36

you were asking me that, but just for clarity for your listeners,

38:41

I think sad and

38:44

probably pretty dark about

38:46

this moment.

38:47

Do you think he feels at all responsible?

38:51

I don't know if that's where his head is at. I

38:53

really don't know. I think

38:55

he probably looks at where working

38:58

class voters were and wonders

39:00

if he the

39:03

party. I'm not sure Harris

39:07

should have been doing something differently and better.

39:09

I mean, you know, his I

39:12

like, I always think about a

39:15

lot of some of the conversations I had with him

39:17

when I was the press secretary, where he would always

39:19

tell me that's not how people talk,

39:21

right. You know, There'd be language that was spit out of the

39:23

bureaucratic system and he'd say, like, nobody

39:26

talks like that and scran Pennsylvania.

39:28

Now, I'm not suggesting I think Harris did

39:30

far better than he would have done had

39:32

he remained the nominee. So I'm not suggesting

39:35

that. I do think that

39:38

he probably has a mixture of emotions

39:40

right now about how the

39:42

party communicated about

39:45

I don't know if it's the timing of when he dropped out.

39:47

I don't know if he thinks he could have done better. I don't know

39:49

what's going on in his head right now.

39:50

I think he's probably wondering about his legacy

39:53

too.

39:53

His legacy, I think is the biggest thing,

39:55

and this is you

39:58

know, I remember I was working for President

40:00

Obama when Trump won, and I was

40:02

his communications director, and the

40:04

first twenty four to forty eight hours was

40:07

really more on a very personal, visceral

40:09

level for people in the building what does this

40:12

mean for them? And I'm not trying to be cheesy

40:14

about it, but people really were like,

40:16

I'm a Muslim American, Like, what does this mean

40:18

for me? You know, I'm from the

40:20

LGBTQ plus community, what does this mean for

40:23

me? It was very personal.

40:25

That was what everybody was doing. We weren't thinking about the

40:27

legacy. It quickly moved there,

40:29

though, to a point where it

40:32

felt like so many people in the country

40:35

knew that Trump was racist and

40:37

sexist and just looked the other way.

40:40

And it felt disappointing right

40:42

not in individuals, but felt like

40:44

maybe we haven't made as much progress as a country

40:47

as we thought we had. And I think for Biden,

40:51

he just worked for eight years

40:53

as Vice president four years in

40:55

between four years more as president worked

40:57

to make progress on a lot of things that

40:59

he has right to be proud of.

41:01

I feel like that could have been you know, I'm

41:03

telling the Press Secretary, but I

41:06

do think Jen maybe they

41:08

weren't up to speed on the

41:11

way people get information either,

41:13

I think President Biden, and please

41:15

disagree with me if you don't think this is the

41:18

case, but you know, and everything

41:20

is hindsight is twenty twenty, but I feel

41:22

like they were kind of

41:24

operating a twenty

41:27

twenty press organization

41:31

in a nineteen ninety kind of way. I

41:34

think they were slow to understand

41:37

the power of social media. I

41:39

think they were still showing up on Meet

41:41

the Press and thinking that was really going to have

41:43

an impact. And I respect Meet

41:46

the Press, and you know, I'm not putting

41:48

down legacy media, but it seems

41:50

like, you know, there was this almost

41:54

had in the sand idea

41:56

or kind of resorting

41:58

to the same old, same old that did

42:01

not serve them well, where they weren't

42:03

really able to explain their accomplishments

42:05

that they didn't kind of talk where

42:08

all these you know, people are getting

42:10

information on all these fragmented ways.

42:13

I think they were kind of slow to pick that up.

42:15

What do you think?

42:16

Yeah, I agree with some of it and not some of it.

42:18

So I think one

42:20

they definitely weren't doing meet the press. You can

42:22

ask the people doing the.

42:24

Oppress there,

42:26

right, but you know when they would.

42:28

Okay, okay, so you can ask them,

42:30

they would tell you they never engaged with them. I

42:32

think there are people

42:35

on the team, including there's

42:37

a guy named Rob Flaherty who ran the digital

42:40

team for Biden and continued with Harris,

42:42

who I think is, no,

42:44

you don't really have money of money on the campaign you don't have

42:46

in the White House, who built very

42:49

large followings and to the best

42:51

of his ability within his constraints,

42:53

and his team did really amazing things.

42:55

Well, I thought the Harris campaign was

42:57

was doing an awesome t I'm talking

43:00

about I'm talking about the Biden administry,

43:02

same people doing the stuff. Did

43:04

they just not have any money?

43:06

You don't have money in the White House for any of it, so

43:08

you have it on a campaign. I

43:10

also, though, think that there has

43:13

to be candidates

43:15

who have the agility to do those things

43:18

right, and I don't know that anybody

43:21

who was at a certain age has that. It real

43:23

agility, right.

43:24

It's just Kamala Harris did.

43:26

She's younger, right, but I still

43:28

think but I also don't as much

43:31

like.

43:31

Rad Summer, which was cool, didn't

43:34

work. Young people didn't turn out. So

43:36

like I think, there's also like a lot of things

43:38

about they can control

43:40

and things they can't, including there

43:42

isn't the same ecosystem on the left, including

43:45

you need to have people who are willing

43:48

to do a range of things. And yes, she was willing

43:50

to do a lot of things, not all of the things,

43:52

but a range of things.

43:53

And there was that three week blackout period

43:55

which I honestly could not understand.

43:57

That was making me crazy, just as

44:00

I also what was that? I

44:03

think, I don't know. I think maybe

44:05

a focus on the

44:07

debate and the debate being a moment

44:09

where but let's just be real, debates are

44:11

important for the American people. They do not.

44:14

This is also like an outdated view of

44:16

like how elections will turn. In my view,

44:18

you should do this.

44:19

Should have been everywhere everywhere.

44:22

But also Tim Walls, who was

44:24

this kind of like so appealing

44:27

rough around the edges guy

44:30

during veepstakes where he propelled himself

44:32

onto the ticket essentially and then he disappeared

44:34

from public view for like four months.

44:36

I don't think it would have changed the outcome. I think

44:38

there's like lots of factors as soon as

44:40

I've digested it, but it is a

44:43

you have to be fearless and how

44:45

you communicate and who and what

44:48

formats you communicate on, and that means

44:50

doing all of the things, including

44:52

with people you disagree with who

44:54

are going to be tough. I actually thought one of her better interviews

44:57

was with Brett Baer, like she liked being

44:59

on you know, oh, having a tough interview.

45:01

You know.

45:02

So I think I always find that people do better

45:06

when they're asked really challenging, pointed

45:08

questions. I always felt that about Hillary

45:10

Clinton. If you are giving them these almost

45:13

weird like amorphous softballs, it's

45:15

really hard to kind of hone your

45:18

message and be succinct and

45:20

say what you really need to say. But

45:22

I, you know, listen. I I

45:26

also felt that, and again

45:29

I think she really did well in

45:31

so many areas, but I was frustrated

45:33

by her inability to really succinctly

45:36

answer questions at times, jen and

45:38

to kind of like if she was asked

45:40

about changing the Supreme

45:42

Court at that CNN to Hall. She

45:45

had an opportunity to talk about ethics

45:47

and what you know Alito and Clarence

45:49

Thomas were doing, and she answered like

45:51

in one sentence and then like went on

45:54

to something that had nothing to do with the question.

45:56

You know, people notice that, and it's like, answer

45:59

the goddamn question, please.

46:00

I mean, yeah, I love this is I'm seeing

46:03

the Katie Kirk I watched on TV for so many

46:05

years.

46:05

And I'm so hungry. I didn't never say God, damn, I

46:07

know, but.

46:08

You thought it. This is

46:10

my kind of like unsolicited advice

46:12

to every person who may run for president.

46:14

And I'm not picking any ponies. Whatever pony

46:17

emerges emerge, sit

46:19

down and think about why are you

46:21

running for president? Right What

46:23

is the most driving important thing for you? So you can

46:25

answer that question and then explore

46:28

what you actually think about the hard

46:30

questions of the day. It doesn't have

46:32

to be what's poll tested. In fact, ignore that.

46:35

What do you think should happen on immigration? What

46:37

do you think should happen in Israel? Every one of

46:39

them should be able to for themselves

46:41

answer those questions, and this is the time

46:43

to do that right now. Explore those

46:45

things, learn more about areas you don't know and

46:48

form your own opinion.

47:08

Well, one of the most damaging things was when

47:11

she did go on the View and they made

47:13

Hay over this when she said, I really

47:16

can't think of a single thing she'd do differently than

47:18

Joe Biden. First of all, Jen,

47:20

you're an insider. Why didn't Joe Biden

47:22

say, listen, I know you're going

47:24

to have to separate yourself from this administration.

47:27

Let's talk about areas where you can,

47:30

where they're legitimate and

47:32

godspeed. Because I

47:35

think somebody wrote that it was almost

47:37

as if they were more afraid of

47:39

hurting Joe Biden's feelings than

47:41

winning the election. Okay, help

47:44

me out here, Jen.

47:47

I wish that would have happened. I

47:49

don't know that it didn't, but I think we can all assume

47:51

it didn't, right, And I

47:53

think.

47:54

You mean that come to Jesus conversation

47:57

script.

47:57

Yeah, because I've worked for a lot of people

48:00

in different circumstances. I mean, this was an incredibly

48:02

I'm not making this as an excuse, but

48:05

unique and painful summer for

48:08

Joe Biden, for everybody around

48:10

him, for major leaders of the Democratic

48:12

Party who he'll probably never speak to again

48:14

like Nancy Pelosi, and there

48:17

was a fragility. There was also

48:19

What's also true, and I think this may

48:21

have been weighed the wrong way, is

48:23

that when Joe Biden made the decision, he did

48:25

for good reason. He was beloved by

48:28

the Democratic Party, and I think in her mind

48:31

there's a she navigated the politics

48:33

of that in a very tricky way, right

48:36

right, So, I don't know. I think

48:38

that answer on the view was she

48:40

had many moments of brilliance. That was

48:42

not one of them.

48:43

Well why couldn't.

48:44

I mean, it seems to me if I were running

48:46

for president, Jen, I would sit down

48:49

with my you know, brain trust, and

48:51

I'd be like, okay, let's

48:53

play out these questions. What

48:55

am I going to say yeah to this? And I would

48:57

have had a template that I would have carried around

49:00

with me in every interview,

49:02

and I would have reviewed them and said, you

49:04

know, this is what I believe and

49:06

this is how I'm going to handle a question

49:09

like that. Now, it just

49:11

didn't seem like that was done.

49:13

Am I crazy?

49:14

Well, we don't know, you

49:16

know. And here's the thing. Looking at

49:18

the first biteen debate, this is a different thing.

49:21

But I've prepped a lot of people who

49:23

you know what they should say, and

49:25

then they ignore your advice. So I

49:27

don't know if that happened, And like she just

49:30

in the moment felt like she should

49:32

just not not differentiate.

49:34

She kind of over the course of time she

49:36

started differentiating herself, but

49:39

it was a little bit on the margins, right,

49:41

right, and it wasn't something I think

49:43

people could bite into now. She also

49:45

had some challenges. Any sitting vice president

49:47

has say on Gaza, right, which

49:49

is like, I actually don't know what her view is

49:52

on that issue. I don't know, but she's

49:54

the sitting vice president. She can't come out

49:56

with a massively different position than the sitting

49:58

president while security people

50:01

and diplomats are negotiating a deal. She

50:03

was kind of stuck on that right.

50:05

Right, So I don't There was this impression,

50:07

I guess, and I guess

50:09

because of the Abraham Accords

50:12

and moving the embassy right.

50:15

I mean, so there was this

50:17

I think pre baked feeling on

50:19

the part of some voters that Donald

50:21

Trump was going to be much stronger for Israel.

50:24

And I think when she expressed

50:27

and which I think is so sad, the inability

50:29

to think dialectically and say

50:32

yes, and is just been lost

50:34

in this country. But I think when she expressed

50:37

even sympathy for people who

50:39

had, you know, the humanitarian crisis

50:41

in Gaza, I think a

50:43

lot of people interpreted that as not being

50:46

strong enough for Israel.

50:48

Yes, and the politics,

50:50

I mean, the humanity of the issue, as

50:52

you just touched on, is the humanity of the issue.

50:54

There's also, of course families

50:56

that lost loved ones who were killed

50:59

by Hamas all. Of course, of

51:01

course all is true. I know I'm not saying, but all

51:03

is true. I think for her, the

51:06

politics of it were such

51:09

that before she became the nominee,

51:11

there was a feeling that the Democratic Party,

51:14

by some Jewish Americans not all,

51:16

was aligning themselves or not

51:19

doing enough to push back on anti Semitism.

51:22

Right. You saw that in focus groups a lot. I

51:24

don't think that was talked about enough as a real

51:26

issue. And then you also had

51:29

young people, communities of color,

51:32

obviously college campuses, who

51:34

felt there was an ignoring

51:37

of the human

51:39

humanitarian tragedies and got

51:41

both were happening at the same time.

51:44

And I Trump

51:47

somehow screwed it it

51:50

right, and he his view

51:52

and we'll see if this is what he implements is that Netnahu,

51:55

she gets to do whatever he wants and should plow

51:57

for it and level Gaza, and like that's all fine. You

52:00

know.

52:00

I talked to a friend of mine who said her

52:02

daughter went to this Ivy League school and

52:05

a lot of her friends didn't vote

52:08

to send a message to Kamala Harris

52:10

about Gaza.

52:12

They essentially voted to alec Donald Trump, whose

52:15

position is Gaza who

52:18

Gaza?

52:18

What?

52:19

Ntan Yahoo? Who? By the way, many

52:22

Jewish Americans and people in Israel

52:24

do not like right right, So he's saying

52:28

give him free pass that.

52:30

It does not make a lot of sense

52:32

to me.

52:33

I just yeah, I mean, listen, I know people

52:35

feel passionately, but it just seems like

52:37

by not voting, they were giving the election

52:40

to somebody who, as you said, you

52:42

know, is not going to even

52:44

listen to their concerns about

52:47

what is going on. And one last

52:49

question, Jen, I just want to ask one question

52:51

about Trump's behavior, Jen,

52:54

Can you explain why his

52:58

behavior, his language, which his

53:00

coarseness and crudeness,

53:03

why a lot of people seem to like that. I

53:06

mean, every time I'd hear him

53:08

say something, and I guess maybe again

53:10

it's a backlash to quote unquote wokeness

53:13

or political correctness. You

53:15

know, it's part of that. But when

53:17

I saw him pretending to give

53:20

the mic a blowjob, I was like, oh

53:22

my god. And then other people

53:24

like I looked at the people in the background,

53:26

they were laughing. Does

53:29

it just not matter how somebody

53:31

comports themselves in our society

53:33

anymore? Maybe we're just like, I

53:36

don't know, are we out of step?

53:38

I mean, I don't think of myself as prude

53:40

in any way, shape or form. I can talk about all

53:42

the things, but I the crudeness,

53:44

I guess. I think maybe people find funny,

53:47

and maybe the talking about sharks

53:50

and electrocuting and whatever that craziness

53:53

people find funny. What I do

53:55

have a hard time understanding is

53:57

the cruelty and the cruelty

54:00

and why that is okay

54:04

Because I don't know. I don't think of myself

54:06

as naive. I generally think of people, most

54:09

human beings, as being kind,

54:12

right and rooting for other humans.

54:14

And you know the things

54:17

he says when he talks about Hannibal Lecter, I'm like,

54:19

that is weird and creepy. But some people,

54:21

maybe they find that funny I don't know, but

54:23

the cruelty is what I

54:25

don't have an answer for, and I can't really

54:27

understand.

54:29

I wanted to ask you one of the questions

54:31

that a lot of people submitted

54:33

when they heard that we were going to be

54:35

talking. So many people asked

54:38

if the Democrats were going to ask for a recount

54:41

and why there are twenty million votes

54:43

missing. I want to make sure

54:45

everyone knows that there's been no evidence

54:48

of voter fraud and the reason there are fewer

54:50

votes is because there was a lower turnout

54:52

this year compared to twenty twenty. But

54:55

are you hearing that from a lot of your

54:58

fellow Democrats or a lot of you viewers,

55:00

Jen.

55:01

I hear that a lot on social media

55:04

platforms, like people who and

55:06

those are valid voices of course too, but

55:08

like people who are replying

55:10

and asking questions like that and

55:13

not understanding to your point, there was a lower

55:15

turnout and also there

55:18

were still, at least there have been and there

55:20

still are today votes being counted in California,

55:23

which is always the case, but people forget

55:25

that it takes a couple more weeks because of how

55:27

California takes a while to count

55:29

their votes. That's another topic for another podcast

55:31

and why it takes so long. But there are laws

55:34

in states that trigger recounts if

55:36

it is too close, right, if

55:39

it is within a margin. So I

55:41

have heard that, but I think it's important

55:43

for people to understand that the margins

55:45

of victory were quite large

55:48

in a lot of places, definitive,

55:51

and that there were fewer

55:53

people that turned out for

55:56

Kamala Harris then turned out for Joe

55:58

Biden, and there are a range of reasons for that.

56:00

It was easier to vote four years ago. Trump

56:03

was in their face, he was the sitting president. There are lots

56:05

of things, as we've been discussing, but

56:07

that's also just a reality of

56:10

where things sit right now.

56:11

And looking forward. Jen, I know

56:14

these are not your people, but

56:16

we've heard names that will

56:18

be occupying very important roles

56:21

in a future Trump administration.

56:23

Susie Wiles, who was so

56:25

important to the Trump campaign, a

56:28

least staphonic ambassador to the

56:30

UN, Stephen Miller, Deputy chief

56:32

of staff, the Immigration Customs Enforcement

56:35

Director. You mentioned Tom Homan. He

56:37

said, Nikki Haley and Mike Pompeio will not

56:40

have a role, but obviously RFK

56:42

Junior and Elon Muss are

56:45

going to be pretty front and

56:47

center in a Trump administration.

56:49

So this is the

56:52

Maga takeover of the

56:54

US. What do you expect

56:58

of this new regime?

57:00

If you will? Maybe Rashima's right.

57:04

You know I will. There

57:06

are people a last Stephanic was once

57:08

kind of a rising star, moderate

57:11

member of Congress, and she became

57:13

full Maga. I have not thought

57:15

enough about what that means for her role as a

57:17

UN ambassador, although she has been a person

57:20

who has been an eager advocate

57:22

of Trump's position on let nat Yaho

57:24

do whatever na Yah who wants. But

57:27

I think the two that stick out to me there the

57:29

most art that I've just been thinking about today

57:31

are Stephen Miller and Tom

57:34

Holman, in part because there's

57:37

Trump loyalists returning, and

57:39

loyalists to a greater degree than even we saw

57:42

eight years ago. Now. To be fair, every

57:44

president hires people who supports them,

57:47

you know, who are like you are

57:49

grateful to be there. This is a different

57:51

level of that, though, because these are people who

57:53

have shown this right,

57:56

they're not going to question the other thing

57:58

that has stuck out to me. We're going to use

58:00

this in the show tonight, But is Stephen

58:02

Miller did this interview after

58:05

in like twenty seventeen. I think it was where

58:07

he talked about the perception her

58:09

his view of power right and executive

58:12

power, and a lot of these people, those

58:14

two specifically who will be in charge play big

58:16

roles on mass deportations

58:18

and immigration policy, view executive

58:21

power, the power of the presidency

58:24

as all powerful and bigger

58:26

than any other power. And that

58:28

is the part that I think will be quite

58:31

telling. You've seen, like Tom Holman

58:33

basically has said for states that push

58:36

back, I'm going to double up,

58:38

you know, the number of people who come

58:40

into their states and enforce. So

58:43

I don't know how that manifests itself. But

58:47

Trump's view of his own power of executive

58:49

power, obviously he doesn't view equal

58:51

branches of power, and how the people

58:53

who he's hired view that, I

58:55

think is going to be part of the story we see

58:57

in the first at least one I'll be watching.

59:00

Yeah, you know, it's almost as if Stephen Miller

59:02

is Donald Trump's new Roy Khane.

59:05

Yeah, yes, one

59:08

who is who has

59:10

quite a view of white

59:12

supremacy in the world.

59:15

Before we go, Jen, I want to end on

59:17

a hopeful note. You

59:19

have talked about the need for hope

59:23

despite everything and

59:25

the fear that a lot of people have. You know,

59:27

let's be honest, there are people listening to this

59:29

who are very excited about what's

59:32

to come, maybe not every

59:34

aspect, and maybe they'll be surprised.

59:38

I guess it remains to be seen how much of

59:40

Project twenty twenty five will actually be

59:42

implemented if he is going to get rid of the Department

59:44

of Education, the National Weather

59:46

Service, you know, got the Civil

59:48

Service, and basically replace

59:51

those workers with people who pledge

59:53

fealty to Donald Trump. Okay, Having

59:55

said that, you have said there's

59:57

reason to not feel

1:00:00

powerless because I think given all

1:00:03

the factors, people are like, well, what

1:00:05

am I supposed to do? Yeah, and I

1:00:08

watched you either it was on your show. I

1:00:10

think I saw it on Instagram actually, which

1:00:12

is where I get a lot of my experience.

1:00:14

There. I go like America, Katie.

1:00:17

Where you talked about the sort of ebb

1:00:19

and flow of political

1:00:21

power and how things change.

1:00:24

So I thought maybe we'd end

1:00:26

with you kind of talking about how

1:00:29

history can be our guide on this.

1:00:31

Yeah, and I will just reiterate one quick

1:00:33

thing you said, which is I mean I'm not trying to be and

1:00:35

I said this, I think in the video or whatever, Woe may have been

1:00:38

naive.

1:00:39

About Pollyanna, Pollyanna.

1:00:41

Ish about what Trump says

1:00:43

he wants to do, and he will

1:00:46

be successful in doing some of it, at

1:00:48

least we'll see. We don't know yet, but

1:00:50

I think there is an evan flow of history.

1:00:52

And you know, I worked on the Carry campaign in

1:00:54

two thousand and four, which obviously he lost

1:00:57

to George W. Bush. And George W. Bush

1:01:00

had brought the country into the war in Iraq, something

1:01:02

that was quite unpopular. That

1:01:04

John Kerrey had been a decorated war

1:01:07

veteran who ran against him, speaking out

1:01:09

against that, and on paper it

1:01:11

felt like he would be the right person to

1:01:13

defeat him, and he obviously didn't. And it

1:01:15

opened up this period of time, and you remember this well,

1:01:17

I'm sure where there was a lot

1:01:19

of speculation, not in a partisan

1:01:22

way, certainly Republicans but Democrats too,

1:01:24

that maybe it was forever the Republican Party,

1:01:26

maybe the Republican Party and the Party

1:01:28

of Bush was the party of the foreseeable

1:01:30

future, and it wasn't. In

1:01:33

part because when you're in office and

1:01:35

you're governing you're held to

1:01:37

a different account. And in many ways,

1:01:39

the country always looks for change and

1:01:41

wants to hold to account the people who were in power,

1:01:44

and that is a part of the story of twenty twenty four

1:01:46

to two. Two years later, of course, the Democrats

1:01:48

won back the House for the first time in over a decade. Nancy

1:01:50

Pelosi became the first Speaker of the House, and

1:01:53

two years after that, a guy

1:01:55

with the middle name Hussain was elected to

1:01:57

the presidency, someone who was

1:01:59

not the establishment candidate, and

1:02:02

most people wouldn't have predicted. I mean, people thought he

1:02:04

was like a rising star, but I don't think people would

1:02:06

have predicted he would have been the nominee. So

1:02:09

I share that because this is different.

1:02:11

Trump is different. George W.

1:02:13

Bush Well obviously didn't vote for It looks pretty

1:02:15

great these days, you know, to me, but

1:02:18

there are cyclical things. Accountability

1:02:21

is a thing. People do have power.

1:02:23

I also talked about how the Affordable Care Act

1:02:26

was something Trump ran planning to

1:02:28

get rid of, and because of activism,

1:02:31

because people showed up at events, because

1:02:33

people said no, I want my healthcare. That

1:02:35

didn't happen. So I know people are

1:02:37

exhausted. People should rest for a minute or

1:02:40

ten or twenty minutes. But the

1:02:42

thing about democracy is it's designed

1:02:45

for people to have power, including

1:02:47

when you're in the opposition, and you know,

1:02:49

once people are arrested. I hope people feel

1:02:52

that well.

1:02:53

I love talking to you, Jen, thank you so

1:02:55

much to thank you me and spending so much

1:02:57

time.

1:02:58

I love talking to you, I love talking well.

1:03:00

Thank you so much, Katie, I really appreciate it.

1:03:02

And congratulations on your success

1:03:04

and I'm always cheering you on.

1:03:07

Thank you.

1:03:16

Thanks for listening everyone. If you

1:03:18

have a question for me, a subject

1:03:20

you want us to cover, or you want to share

1:03:22

your thoughts about how you navigate

1:03:24

this crazy world, reach out.

1:03:26

You can leave a.

1:03:27

Short message at six h nine five

1:03:29

P one two five to five five,

1:03:32

or you can send me a DM on Instagram.

1:03:34

I would love to hear from you.

1:03:36

Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia

1:03:39

and Katie Kuric Media. The executive

1:03:42

producers are Me, Katie Kuric, and

1:03:44

Courtney Ltz. Our supervising

1:03:46

producer is Ryan Martz, and

1:03:48

our producers are Adriana Fazzio

1:03:50

and Meredith Barnes. Julian

1:03:53

Weller composed our theme music.

1:03:56

For more information about today's episode,

1:03:58

or to sign up for my newsletter wake Up

1:04:00

Call, go to the description in the podcast

1:04:03

app, or visit us at Katiecuric

1:04:05

dot com. You can also find me on

1:04:07

Instagram and all my social media

1:04:09

channels. For more podcasts

1:04:11

from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio

1:04:14

app, Apple Podcasts, or

1:04:16

wherever you listen to your favorite shows.