0:01

Make financial progress with into

0:03

It Credit Karma. It's straightforward,

0:06

stress free and personalize for your financial

0:08

journey. Download the app to get started

0:11

Credit Karma Start making Progress

0:13

today.

0:18

Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric and this is

0:20

next question. Hi

0:25

everyone, Yes, dear listeners,

0:27

it's exactly a month since the election,

0:30

and as we know, in many ways,

0:32

it was a wake up call, a lesson

0:34

that when it comes to both sides in this country,

0:37

neither of us really get each other. Ourley

0:40

Hoakeshield, our guest today, teaches

0:42

sociology at Berkeley. Yeah.

0:44

I know what you're thinking, Katie's talking

0:46

to another person inside that bubble

0:49

of hers, But that is not

0:51

really the case because for the

0:53

past ten years, Arley, who's

0:55

the grandmother we all wish we had, by the way,

0:58

has been traveling to ruby communities

1:01

to get a handle on what's really fueling

1:03

the anger in our country. For her

1:05

first book on this topic, Strangers

1:07

in their Own Land, she headed to Lake

1:09

Charles, Louisiana now

1:12

Pikeville, Kentucky. In the heart of

1:14

Appalachia is the setting of her

1:16

new book in this same genre, Stolen

1:19

Pride, Loss, Shame,

1:21

and the Rise of the Right. Arley

1:23

scales what she calls the empathy

1:25

Wall and humanizes Americans

1:28

in these communities so we can all

1:30

better understand what is really

1:33

happening in our divided country.

1:39

Arlee High, be there. Goodness,

1:42

I'm so excited to meet you and talk

1:45

to you and thank you so

1:47

much for doing this. I don't know if you had

1:49

a chance to watch my hour, but it's

1:51

so weird.

1:52

Yes, you know I didn't. I just now

1:54

saw it, but I look forward to seeing

1:56

it on a white anxiety.

1:58

Yes, and it's so so much echoes

2:01

a lot of the things. In fact, I'm

2:03

sort of mad that I didn't reach out to you

2:05

when I was working on this project

2:07

because it would have been perfect. And I think your

2:10

name came up because it came

2:12

out, I believe in twenty eighteen my series

2:14

for National Geographic and I

2:16

talked a lot to Joan Williams. I wonder

2:19

if you know her. She wrote White Working

2:21

Class for the Harvard Business Review and then

2:23

it became a book. Yes, but

2:25

I should have followed you around and we should have made

2:27

a whole documentary together. That would have

2:29

been awesome because.

2:32

I would take you.

2:34

I think it's interesting because

2:36

everything you're writing about now and

2:39

have written about in the past, is

2:41

so relevant to the conversations

2:43

people are having today. And

2:46

that's why I was really excited to have an

2:48

opportunity to speak with you, because

2:50

I think so much of what you've written

2:52

about, so much of what you continue to

2:54

write about, resonates deeply

2:58

today because I think you

3:00

went out to explore what everyone

3:02

is now asking, why are

3:05

we so divided? Why do we

3:07

seem like two different countries?

3:10

And I think your work really answers

3:13

those questions, first with

3:16

a book you wrote previously called Strangers

3:18

in their Own Land, and now

3:21

a new book called Stolen Pride.

3:24

I want to start at the beginning of this journey,

3:26

though, if I could. What set you

3:28

out on this path to understand

3:31

what was happening really in

3:33

Red America?

3:35

Yeah, I feel the way is if

3:37

America is now living with two

3:40

denials. There's the denial

3:42

of the democratic side of America

3:45

that's saying, who are these people? How

3:48

silly of them to vote for Donald

3:50

Trump? And what

3:52

big sector of America that has faced

3:55

tremendous loss and

3:57

has lost faith in the government has

4:00

response to that loss. There's

4:02

a denial of the democratic side

4:04

of America, of that whole loss story,

4:06

and I think we have a big job ahead to

4:09

address that. But we

4:12

are facing I think a danger to

4:14

democracy, and I think there is a

4:17

discounting and a denial

4:19

of that on the right

4:21

side of America. So I think we've got

4:24

two denials, need to work on

4:26

both.

4:27

I love the fact that you describe something

4:29

called an empathy wall, and you really

4:31

look at sociology

4:34

and society writ

4:36

large from an

4:39

emotional point of view. Why

4:41

are people feeling a

4:43

certain way? And I think you lead

4:46

with that Why.

4:48

Well, thank you for the question, Katie,

4:51

because I actually

4:53

believe that we all need

4:55

to become bilingual. That

4:57

we're used to speaking just the language

4:59

of rationality, and

5:02

what we need to do is to be able

5:04

to hear and speak in emotions,

5:08

because there's a curious

5:11

logic to emotions.

5:14

There are emotional scripts. There

5:16

are a whole different story

5:18

unfolds if we look at emotions. We

5:21

are emotional creatures. We feel

5:23

fear, we feel distressed,

5:26

we feel envy, and in my

5:28

last book, I feel that we

5:31

also feel pride and shame,

5:34

and that unless we're

5:36

listening to that, we're not seeing

5:39

the whole story.

5:42

And actually it feels like

5:44

the main story, because

5:47

why is it the main story. It's

5:50

the main story because

5:53

if we go back two decades

5:55

and we look at three decades, look at NAFTA

5:59

offshoring automation that

6:01

has created the haves and the have

6:04

nots of globalization,

6:07

and so the haves who live in cities,

6:09

who have bas for whom

6:11

new opportunities have opened

6:13

up, aren't looking at

6:16

the situation of loss. It's not

6:18

just deprivation, but loss of

6:21

actually the white blue collar class.

6:24

So they feeling frightened and

6:27

a sense of loss. So they

6:29

have turned to a charismatic figure

6:32

who works through emotions.

6:35

And that's why it's important.

6:38

I believe, for example, that

6:40

Donald Trump has

6:43

I think actually as a person his

6:46

experienced shame and very harsh father,

6:49

and that would be neither here nor

6:51

there, except that it's given him

6:54

enormous insight into the

6:56

pain of unwarranted

6:58

shame that a lot of blue color men

7:01

who feel in free fall have felt.

7:04

And he I think offers

7:06

a four moment anti

7:09

shaming ritual that

7:12

unless we are biling well, we

7:14

don't hear and

7:16

moment one, for example, and it

7:19

happens repeatedly through different

7:21

episodes, but moment

7:23

one of this anti shaming

7:26

ritual is Donald Trump will

7:29

say something transgressive, like

7:32

Asian immigrants are

7:34

cooking and eating your pedcats

7:37

and dogs. A moment two,

7:39

the punditry shames Donald

7:42

Trump and says, you can't

7:44

say that. I mean, there was one article

7:46

that turns out it's not true, and you don't

7:49

repeat something that isn't true. Okay,

7:52

So the punditry shames Donald Trump. Moment

7:55

three, Donald Trump becomes

7:58

the victim of the shamers.

8:01

Look how hard it is to be

8:04

put down, to be vilified,

8:06

And have you been put down?

8:09

They put you down to y'all,

8:12

Well, they're putting me down. I'm actually taking

8:14

the hip for you.

8:16

That's fascinating because a lot

8:18

of people wonder, you know, how

8:20

can people who are struggling financially

8:24

aspire or admire

8:27

someone like Donald Trump who

8:29

is so wealthy and so ostentatious

8:33

and lives a life so

8:36

completely different than they do. But

8:38

you're talking about this shame

8:41

sharing thing that

8:43

happens that makes them

8:45

gravitate towards someone that

8:48

it's kind of a microcosm of what they're

8:51

feeling daily in their lives.

8:53

Exactly, Katie, Exactly,

8:55

Bingo and moment four,

8:57

he gets revenge for the shaming. He

9:00

tells them off. He turns

9:03

shame to blame.

9:04

That is fascinating. Well, let's

9:06

get back to Stolen Pride,

9:08

because well, this is really what we're talking

9:11

about. But you ended

9:13

up in Pike County, Kentucky, the

9:15

Nations, as you mentioned, whitest

9:17

and second poorest congressional

9:19

district, which by the way, is just a few

9:22

hours from where JD. Vance

9:24

wrote Hillbilly Elegy.

9:26

That's right.

9:27

Well, that's really an interesting psychological

9:30

turnabout that we can maybe discuss another

9:33

time. But Stolen

9:35

Pride focuses on a

9:37

period of time in twenty seventeen

9:40

leading up to a plan rally

9:43

by a white supremacist named Matthew

9:46

Heinbach, and you

9:49

actually got to know him during

9:51

the course of writing this book. And

9:54

you basically start with Matthew

9:57

Heimback and another figure

9:59

in Pikeville who was trying to

10:01

figure out whether or not to give Matthew

10:04

Heinbach's organization a

10:06

permit to protest in

10:08

Pikeville. Tell us about

10:10

these two individuals and why

10:13

you focused on them initially in your

10:15

book.

10:16

I focused on them initially in

10:18

my book because I saw a perfect

10:21

storm. On

10:23

the one hand, cold jobs

10:25

had gone out, opiates,

10:28

big crisis ongoing

10:31

have come in. And then

10:33

there was a neo Nazi march promising

10:37

a false, I think answer to

10:39

those problems. This is all

10:41

white, so blame blacks.

10:45

So I thought I was looking at a perfect

10:47

storm, and so I decided

10:49

to listen to

10:52

the perpetrator, listen to those

10:54

who were trying to protect the

10:56

community against violence that

10:59

Matthew him bat seemed

11:01

to bring with him, and I also

11:04

talked to those who might be hurt

11:07

by his presence. There

11:10

was a Holocaust survivor,

11:12

a ima, a small

11:15

local mosque, so

11:17

the potential villains. And then I

11:21

topped to bottom, side to side, interviewed

11:23

people, just to try and get a

11:25

pulse through

11:28

what eyes would such a man be

11:30

seen? Is there an appetite

11:32

for fascists in

11:34

such an otherwise beautiful area

11:38

with good people? Could

11:41

it happen here? And looking

11:43

at emotions turned out to be the thing to

11:45

do.

11:46

And what did you discover, Arlie?

11:48

I discovered that the townspeople

11:51

were disinterested in Matthew

11:54

Heinbach. And they said to me,

11:56

well, you know our grandfathers. You see

11:58

those graves on the Hills. We

12:01

decorate them Memorial Day

12:03

because they fought

12:05

against fascism. But

12:09

the book talks about another parade,

12:11

and that is

12:14

for someone that they were taken

12:16

with that having

12:18

given up on regular government, here

12:21

came a figure by the name of

12:23

Donald Trump who saw

12:25

them, they felt and understood

12:29

their grievance. Meanwhile,

12:32

the left was laughing at them and not seeing

12:34

them. They didn't feel understood.

12:36

Democratic Party seemed to be putting

12:39

others out of them, gay

12:41

as women and not had

12:44

forgotten about social class and

12:46

laws. And so

12:49

this Donald Trump had appeal. And

12:52

while they said no to Matthew Heinbach,

12:55

they said yes to

12:57

Donald Trump.

12:58

Why did you focus primate early on men

13:00

in this book?

13:02

I'm interested in who's in trouble and

13:05

getting them out of trouble. And I think

13:08

men are in a

13:10

crisis. A white man

13:12

and black men. And one

13:14

man explained the crisis

13:17

well to me. And

13:20

our interview began with his

13:22

saying, I'm trailer trash okay,

13:26

And I said, well, what do you mean you know?

13:28

And he described his

13:31

family, said, we've been poor. I'm

13:33

on disability myself,

13:36

and I grew up with

13:38

the drugs all around me and frightened

13:40

of any knock at the door. And

13:44

I'm used to being described as

13:46

dumb hillbilly. And

13:50

he said, this America has

13:52

two primary narratives.

13:55

One is of the successful

13:59

middle class guy, and

14:02

they say, well, good for you, you've you've

14:04

had a good job and I can

14:07

support family. You're a success.

14:09

You had the American dream. And

14:11

then America looks at a poor

14:13

black man and says, well, you

14:16

didn't get the American dream. But that's because

14:18

of racism. And

14:21

we understand that that's

14:23

that narrative. But what about

14:25

a guy like me, He said,

14:28

who's or and male

14:30

and white. There's no explanation

14:33

for this. I don't have the American dream and

14:35

it must be because I'm lazy or I'm

14:37

done. So he

14:41

felt anguished, and he didn't He

14:43

wasn't for Donald Trump, but he wasn't

14:45

for the Democratic Party either. He

14:48

felt stuck in the middle. And

14:50

I think Americans

14:53

have of good spirit,

14:56

you know, on the Democratic

14:59

side understand him

15:01

and reach out to him and

15:05

say, hey, we

15:07

do understand. And

15:11

that that has been I

15:13

think a missing piece of

15:15

the Democratic Party for a

15:17

while. Out the hole. They're

15:20

not looking at social class and

15:22

you need.

15:23

To tired

15:33

of your credit score playing hard to get

15:36

into it. Credit Karma is the sidekick

15:38

you never knew you needed. With personalized

15:40

tips and step by step tools, you'll go from

15:43

credit confusion to confidence in no

15:45

time. Plus Credit Karma tailor's

15:48

credit card and loan recommendations

15:50

to your financial profile, making

15:52

your financial choices feel like a perfect

15:54

match. Download the app to start turning

15:57

your credit game around Credit Karma

15:59

Start making progress. Today

16:12

we'll talk about what the Democrats should

16:14

do more of moving forward in a

16:16

moment. But you make an interesting observation

16:19

in your book about how

16:22

Republicans view success

16:26

and really conversely poverty

16:29

and how democrats view

16:31

success. In other words, you talk

16:33

about Republicans inadvertently

16:37

blaming poor people

16:40

because they don't have the

16:43

pull them up by the bootstrap's mentality,

16:46

and as a result, people in red

16:48

states blame themselves, while

16:51

Democrats focus on

16:53

the big picture and say,

16:56

it's not your fault, it's

16:58

society's fault exactly.

17:01

It's a kind of a pride paradox,

17:05

we could say. And it's poignant

17:08

that those who have suffered the hit

17:10

economically are

17:13

also those who

17:15

subscribe to individualism, and so

17:18

they likely to say Look, if I make

17:20

it, that's credit to

17:22

me, and if I fail, that's

17:25

my fault, that's my shame.

17:28

Whereas people blue

17:30

states are not taking

17:32

such an economic hit, are

17:35

more likely to have a circumstantial

17:38

culture of pride and

17:40

so well, circumstances were

17:42

wrong. It's not me personally

17:44

that's caused my own failure,

17:47

so they're less likely to

17:49

beat themselves up.

17:52

That's compounded by this distrust

17:55

or inability to

17:59

accept the governs help. Right,

18:02

So you have people blaming

18:04

themselves and thinking

18:07

that government should not get

18:09

involved in their lives, at least

18:11

financially or helping them. So

18:13

it seems to me this has all

18:16

the makings of a massive shame spiral

18:19

for these people in red states.

18:21

That's right, you know, saying, look, we need to

18:24

lift the veil and think of feelings

18:26

in order to see what's really

18:28

going on on the other side. And

18:31

that's an example of a painful

18:33

feeling that we need to

18:36

understand.

18:37

I want to read something from your book

18:39

because I think it so clearly illustrates

18:42

what you're talking about. You

18:44

write, So what happens,

18:46

I wondered when workers are exhorted

18:49

to believe that capitalism needs

18:51

no government hand, and that each individual

18:54

working in it bears personal responsibility

18:57

for how well or poorly he

19:00

or she fears. And then

19:02

companies pull out, those

19:05

left behind find themselves trapped

19:07

inside a pride paradox.

19:10

Of course, I'll say this parenthetically.

19:12

You're referring to these centers

19:15

where manufacturing got

19:17

hollowed out and plants moved

19:19

to either like non Union states

19:22

or overseas, And

19:25

I think this quote

19:27

really describes how people felt.

19:30

You talked to one man who

19:32

I thought really encapsulated

19:36

the downward spiral of shame.

19:38

Who was that?

19:39

Yes, Yes, that was. I'm

19:43

so delighted that you found

19:45

that quote.

19:47

It did open

19:49

my own eyes as well. And that

19:53

quote comes from a young man

19:56

who's forty now. And

19:59

when I met him, he was homeless

20:02

and in a drug

20:04

recovery center and

20:08

he had just graduated from

20:10

it and twelve years of heroin

20:13

he had overdosed four

20:17

times. I've talked

20:19

to him over the

20:21

last six seven years,

20:25

some in zoom, and I've

20:27

talked to his sister who rescued

20:29

him. He is an amazing,

20:32

eye opening person.

20:34

So how old is he now, Arlie?

20:36

He's forty three, and I

20:38

just talked to him yesterday. And

20:41

you know what he told me about denial because

20:43

I was telling him I think both left

20:46

are denying things, but different

20:48

things. And he said, the thing

20:50

about denial is that you don't

20:53

know that you are

20:56

denying. I love

20:59

this insight, and

21:01

he's trying to help us lift

21:04

our denial. And I'm

21:06

doing it by giving

21:08

my reader this man.

21:11

Well, this is what he said. Shame

21:14

comes gradually. Let me give you an

21:16

example of guys around where I live.

21:19

First thing, a guy gets his layoff slip,

21:21

and he blames the inspector, then

21:23

the supervisor. Then he shakes

21:25

his fists at the Obama administration for

21:28

putting in the Clean Air Act and adds in

21:30

Biden and the Democratic Party

21:32

in the deep State. Then, when his unemployment

21:35

runs low and his wife asks for money for

21:37

groceries for the kids, he faces a

21:39

hard choice. If you need money and don't

21:41

have a degree, you've got to leave. But

21:43

his family's here and he doesn't want

21:45

to leave. That's when he starts to feel

21:47

bad about himself. He looks around

21:50

at the jobs at nine

21:52

or ten fifty an hour, and he turns

21:54

his nose up at what he thinks of as girly

21:57

service jobs because he can't support

21:59

his family on that kind of money. But

22:01

then his partner says, we need to feed

22:03

the kids, so he takes the crap

22:05

job, and she says there's still

22:07

not enough money for food, gas and fixing

22:10

the roof. It's then that his

22:12

shame begins to get stronger, because now

22:14

he feels the problem is on him, And

22:17

if he leaves on Route twenty three looking

22:19

for work and comes back empty handed, that's

22:21

shame waiting for him at home. Then

22:24

if he gets into drugs take it from

22:26

me, he's ashamed. That

22:28

can lead to divorce and separation from

22:30

his kids. And now he's on the dole. He

22:33

always felt superior to others

22:35

he saw on the dole, and now he's

22:37

on it too, So he's ashamed

22:39

about that and mad that he's made

22:41

to feel ashamed. Then he may

22:43

read some op ed in the Appalachian News

22:45

Express calling people like him a deadbeat

22:48

for not supporting his family and paying

22:50

taxes the town needs for its sewer repair.

22:53

He's not a contributor. On

22:55

top of all that, he sees on the internet

22:57

people outside the region firing inside

23:00

at him as ignorant, racist,

23:02

sexist, or homophobic. Now

23:04

he's mad at the shamers, and

23:06

by this point he's forgotten about the shame.

23:09

He's just plain pissing mad.

23:13

Doesn't that say it all?

23:15

It really does say

23:18

it all. It says it all. Yeah,

23:21

And so what happens

23:24

then if

23:26

you have half the population that

23:29

doesn't understand that story, or

23:32

passes over it, or doesn't

23:35

see its significance because

23:38

they're not looking at feelings, then

23:40

you have the situation we're in.

23:43

You know, I've done a lot of reading and

23:45

reporting on loneliness and the epidemic

23:47

of loneliness in this country, and

23:51

I have this thesis, and it's probably

23:53

not original that a

23:56

lot of people gravitate

23:58

to these groups because they

24:02

want to belong and it doesn't matter

24:04

what group they're joining, they just want

24:07

to feel a part of something. And

24:09

as church attendance and community

24:11

activities have declined and

24:14

kawanis clubs and all those things

24:16

that used to be gathering places for people

24:20

are not as active or

24:23

accessible, that

24:25

people are joining these

24:28

groups and then they have

24:30

the foundation of grievance and

24:33

loss. It's almost

24:35

a replacement for community.

24:38

I love your themes, Katie. I

24:40

think it's right on. It's

24:43

really brilliant.

24:45

It's probably your thesis that I just stole.

24:48

No, no, it's yours,

24:52

and I think it's another

24:55

way. And if we take the blinders

24:57

of what's going on on

25:00

the other side, it makes it more,

25:02

it makes it understandable. And

25:05

with this instead

25:08

of the Kuwanas club or the bowling

25:11

club, we do know that

25:13

nowurd mobility goes with a loss

25:16

of community and more

25:18

people living alone and worse

25:21

health. So put

25:24

all that together with this

25:26

new found community in

25:29

politics where there's

25:32

kind of a it's a Petrie dish

25:34

for rancor and complaint

25:37

and blaming you.

25:39

Now we we

25:41

shamed are blaming together

25:44

collectively. How fun it is

25:46

and there's kind of a euphoria getting

25:49

rid of the blame and being

25:53

how together. It's a new

25:55

and scary form of community,

25:58

but is a response I think to

26:00

loss.

26:01

When I mentioned that, I was thinking about Alex

26:03

Hughes, who really

26:06

ran into trouble. I'm

26:08

going to do another dramatic reading for you,

26:11

our Lee of your own book. Here

26:14

we go. Alex Hughes was

26:16

part of the eighty percent of Pike County

26:18

residents who voted for Donald Trump in twenty

26:21

sixteen and twenty twenty. Alex's

26:23

American dream was not to own a coal

26:26

company, but to earn a bachelor's degree,

26:28

which required money his family lacked,

26:31

or to be a government administrator.

26:34

Alex's dream was to provide well

26:36

for his family, perhaps as a small business

26:38

owner, and the economic downturn

26:41

had been holding a knife to that plan.

26:43

His maternal grandfather had been severely

26:46

injured in the mines and warned Alex's

26:48

father and Alex himself to find safer

26:51

work. At age sixteen, Alex

26:53

moved in with his grandparents and started painting

26:55

houses. By nineteen he had started

26:58

a small business painting houses and married.

27:01

But by the nineteen nineties, Alex's

27:03

bootstrap yes sure strategy

27:06

no longer brought in steady work quote

27:09

and now I had to pay both my bills

27:11

and my business loan. By then I was divorced

27:14

and had my daughter to care for. So

27:16

when I lost my business and got in debt

27:19

for one hundred and twenty eight thousand dollars

27:21

to the irs, that's when things

27:23

really got bad. The house

27:25

gone, the car gone,

27:28

the furniture gone,

27:30

my wife's and my wedding rings

27:32

ponnd. I was in freefall. I

27:35

felt like there was no place for me. I

27:37

had to ask myself, what did

27:39

I do wrong? This man's

27:41

life, though, changed, didn't it?

27:44

Arlie? When he saw an advertisement

27:47

for a paid six month training program

27:50

sponsored by a Louisville based company

27:52

called Interapt. Can you talk

27:54

about that and how transformative

27:57

these retraining programs can

27:59

be and why we need to do more of it?

28:02

Right? You know, we were just talking

28:04

about the importance of community.

28:07

Your thesis about hey, the loss

28:09

of community, and then there can be these

28:12

scary adheriant violence

28:15

substitutes for community, while

28:18

INTERAPT isn't just the opposite.

28:21

Example. Here is a community

28:24

of people that Alex

28:26

joined who happened to pass

28:29

the test to qualify for

28:32

a six month paid

28:35

training program in Louisville.

28:38

And I went to visit

28:40

that training program and watch

28:42

it and talk to the

28:45

students there, and one

28:47

after another after another, all

28:51

unemployed had been through rough

28:54

rough times, many from eastern

28:56

Kentucky kind of no

28:59

good jobs, and they came

29:01

there, and like Alex

29:04

had felt kind of beaten up,

29:06

he'd try to start a tattoo

29:08

parlor, and he blamed

29:10

himself. I should have seen the handwriting

29:12

on the wall. Fewer people came

29:15

in I wasn't making

29:17

money. I didn't redirect.

29:20

So he's kind of blaming himself.

29:23

And he'd been turned down for

29:26

a lot of jobs that he applied

29:29

to, so he felt shamed

29:31

and beaten up. So he

29:34

got to this interact

29:36

training program and he's sitting around

29:39

the table with ten other students,

29:42

and if he ran into a problem and he

29:44

told him said, look, I can't do this stuff.

29:47

You know, I'm not really skilled this way.

29:50

The guy next to him was saying, oh yeah,

29:52

I used to feel that way. Here's it's easier

29:55

than you think. And they would

29:57

help each other and

29:59

he he became a great helper

30:02

to the others and felt good about himself

30:04

to be the helper guy because he really

30:07

was gifted with this. And

30:10

it was, he later

30:12

said, transformative. He got

30:15

his self esteem back, and

30:17

that's what we're talking about. We're talking

30:19

about getting your pride back.

30:22

And a lot of your pride can be based

30:25

on helping others. And in his

30:27

case, you know, the

30:29

sweet, wonderful person,

30:32

and he got to be the

30:34

giver. And so

30:37

that was true for other

30:41

students in this class, whom

30:43

I followed back to the

30:46

tiny towns where I

30:48

interviewed them, some lived in places

30:50

that weren't on the Google map that had

30:52

to meet somebody at gas station to go and

30:56

visit them.

31:06

If you want to get smarter every morning with

31:08

a breakdown of the news and fascinating

31:10

takes on health and wellness and pop

31:12

culture, sign up for our daily newsletter,

31:15

Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric

31:17

dot com.

31:27

How did you get people to open up to you, Arlie?

31:30

I mean, you're a

31:32

woman about my age, maybe

31:35

a couple of years older. Old you

31:38

are, you know, from Berkeley.

31:41

Was it hard for you

31:44

to get people to trust you, to

31:47

open up to you, to tell you their

31:49

stories and to share their shame.

31:52

No, No, it wasn't hard,

31:55

and it's I think you're

31:57

the same kind of person as Ion.

32:00

It takes a little at first,

32:03

and then you're two people and you're

32:05

sitting down and I'm really interested

32:08

to get to know their story. And I

32:11

think what it takes is first

32:13

you get your alarm system off, and then

32:15

if there are stereotypes to deal with, you

32:18

deal with them. Like one

32:21

guy said, oh, you're from Berkeley,

32:23

California road and

32:26

well, people look down on us.

32:28

You know, it's done. Hill relyes like that

32:31

and people have stereotypes of

32:33

us, and I said, yeah, people have stereotypes

32:36

about people that come from Berkeley, too,

32:40

So there was a laugh at that. And

32:42

then I share that

32:44

my grandma grew up on a dairy

32:46

farm in Maine, you know, and

32:49

I was howeing the garden and

32:51

loved it, but you know, she those

32:54

broccoli really need tending. And

32:56

they say, well, we you

32:59

know, we're ridiculed for accents,

33:03

our Southern accents. And I said,

33:05

well, my father had a very strong Boston

33:07

accent. He used to call me Ali's

33:10

heard my name. I'm used

33:12

to it being whirling. So

33:15

we're in the same ball.

33:17

It's not so different like

33:20

that.

33:21

I think a lot of people could learn

33:24

from taking your approach. I

33:26

do think that people who

33:29

have college degrees have

33:31

been condescending to a lot of

33:34

these people. I think it's

33:36

less about their income

33:39

and more that they believe

33:42

to your earlier point that blaming

33:44

immigrants, blacks women

33:48

for their troubles is

33:50

just racism and sexism

33:53

and xenophobia. How

33:55

did you come to understand if

33:58

people were that way and

34:01

did you forgive them for those attitudes.

34:05

Yes, there are things I heard that

34:08

I personally disagree with. And

34:11

going in I

34:13

tell people that we're not going to agree on a lot

34:15

of things. That's not why I'm here to

34:17

tell you what I believe. I'm

34:20

really here because I think

34:22

a lot of people on the Democratic

34:24

side of America aren't listening and don't.

34:26

Get to know you or don't

34:28

understand.

34:29

Yes, that's right. And

34:32

I guess what I would add to that is

34:34

that on the left there

34:36

are rightesses against

34:40

you know, men, I can'tst

34:42

white men, and that we need

34:44

to look again and dismantle.

34:47

In other words, they feel like a minority

34:49

group. I know it sounds.

34:50

Strange, but well, they

34:52

feel like they've been the target

34:55

of reverse racism, they would say. In

34:57

fact, many of them told you that right they

35:00

did.

35:01

So. I think it's time for

35:04

people on the left to take their alarm

35:06

system off to actually

35:08

actually start, once

35:11

we catch our breath, to

35:13

build new empathy bridges

35:15

to portions of the white

35:17

working class. I don't think it would be hard

35:20

to do. And there are many ways

35:22

in which Donald Trump

35:25

is far more extreme than

35:27

his followers, and those

35:29

would be issues on which

35:31

we could get common ground,

35:34

for example, climate change.

35:37

They're a majority

35:39

of Republicans, there

35:41

majority of Republicans strong

35:43

majority of Democrats

35:46

agree that the government should

35:50

spend money in remediating

35:54

climate change. I don't

35:56

agree on the causes of it,

35:58

but they do agree something

36:01

should be done about it. Majority

36:03

of bare majority of the public,

36:05

and strong majority of Democrats agree

36:07

that children in schools should learn about climate

36:10

change and the dangers of it. So

36:12

that's crossover territory.

36:15

I think prison reform you

36:17

would find quite a lot of cross

36:20

party agreement and

36:23

reproductive rights. So

36:26

rather than kind of settling

36:29

for judgment, we should

36:32

realize that we've actually been in denial

36:34

about a whole social

36:37

shift that has led a

36:40

lot of Americans to

36:42

become predisposed

36:44

to a charismatic leader that's

36:47

with great promises of a

36:49

new day. And it's happening

36:51

not just in America, it's happening actually

36:54

around the world. In this last

36:56

election, there's been a giant

36:58

move away from income and governments

37:00

toward right wing government. So

37:03

you know, we shouldn't say, oh, what did

37:06

can will do wrong? You're in there, Okay,

37:09

we should do those appraisals, but there

37:12

is a larger set

37:14

of forces and we should I

37:16

think that's what these last

37:18

two books, especially my last

37:21

strangers to tune into

37:23

the circumstances and then the feelings

37:26

that those circumstances make

37:29

people feel. So you

37:31

get our answers from.

37:32

I was going to say the first step is

37:34

obviously understanding, but the second

37:37

step I don't know. I'm very a solution

37:39

oriented person. And since your book

37:42

is called Stolen Pride, Lost Shame, and

37:44

the Rise of the Right, I

37:46

guess my final question to you, Arlie

37:48

is how do we collectively

37:51

as a nation restore pride to

37:54

some of these towns and some of

37:56

these people.

37:58

Yeah. Well, I

38:00

think by making clear that

38:03

that left and right share,

38:06

first of all, the goal

38:08

of restoring right. We get it, we

38:10

want it. That's the first thing to

38:13

do. And in doing

38:15

that first thing, we have to realize that actually

38:18

people on the left are less

38:20

good at listening across

38:23

the partisan divide. Recent

38:27

research found that people

38:30

on the liberal left are more likely

38:32

to break off contact with people

38:35

that say something they disagree

38:37

with than are people on the right.

38:40

Whites are more likely to do it than blacks.

38:42

So paradox is that

38:45

research also shows that conservatives

38:49

are more likely to soften

38:51

their positions if they get to meet

38:53

somebody face to face and

38:56

sit down and get to know them personally.

39:00

So we need to break that

39:02

impass for starters and

39:05

then search the kinds of issues

39:08

in which we could come to some

39:10

common agreement. I met

39:12

a lot of people in these deep

39:15

red communities who

39:18

were for renewable energy.

39:21

One big MAGA leader

39:23

pointed to me said, all those those

39:26

sought off mountains there, we need

39:29

some windmills

39:31

on the windmills. So

39:34

that's a Biden built

39:36

back better and the

39:39

inflation reduction at

39:42

kind of measures of pain for that kind

39:44

of thing. So he

39:46

he doesn't kind of acknowledge

39:48

it, or I don't know. One could

39:50

say, hey, that's a good idea. You

39:53

know, we should have windmills,

39:56

so get rid of the shaming by

39:58

me and on with on

40:01

which both sides could

40:03

outly agree. I think that's the

40:06

way to go, and just being a bystander

40:09

it's not the way to go. We

40:12

all need to participate.

40:15

Now it's serious what we're facing.

40:18

I kept thinking about Brian Stephenson,

40:20

and my team is so sick of me fawning

40:23

over Brian Stephenson. But he talks about

40:25

the need to be proximate, and

40:27

I think the fact that there's not much co

40:30

mingling between people who live

40:32

in urban centers and people who live

40:34

in more rural communities is

40:36

part of the problem that we just

40:39

don't know people who are really that different

40:42

from us, and

40:44

we all are in our little bubbles,

40:46

and I think those need to be penetrated

40:49

from both sides.

40:50

You know, we used to have labor unions

40:53

that were basically the

40:55

middleman between the working class

40:57

and the Democratic Party.

41:00

Those got undercut by

41:03

offshoring.

41:05

And by greedy corporations. I should

41:07

add, but although I know unions

41:09

sometimes get out of control,

41:11

and I have arguments with friends about

41:13

unions, and you know,

41:15

if they're corrupt and they

41:18

overreach, but I also think they're

41:20

so important to protect people from greedy

41:22

corporations who just care about quarterly

41:25

profits in the bottom line and pleasing their shareholders.

41:27

Right, that's right.

41:29

And the terrible thing is the more

41:32

we don't have things like unions

41:35

that ameliorate people's

41:37

lives, the

41:40

more distressed they are, the more

41:42

emotionally open to charismatic

41:45

leaders. So we need

41:47

to break the cycle.

41:49

My daughter reminded me of an FDR

41:52

fireside chat that he

41:54

gave about the key to stability

41:57

is really economic prosperity. For

41:59

every one, and if

42:02

you don't have that, or

42:04

there's such a huge chasm between

42:07

the haves and have nots, that is

42:10

a recipe for terrible unrest

42:12

and social instability and worse.

42:16

So yeah, I think that

42:18

we need to figure out how

42:21

to make everyone feel like they have

42:23

a chance to just have a good life

42:25

and create you know, stability

42:27

for their families and for their children.

42:30

Right, and that just

42:33

pointing to an enemy,

42:35

you know, the intruder

42:38

of the immigrant,

42:41

you know, the black, the woman

42:44

is not a real solution. But

42:46

I think we need to get new channels

42:50

across this political

42:52

divide to stop

42:54

that blaming and get some

42:57

faith back, some real community

43:00

back in America.

43:02

Well, we'll see if that can happen. I

43:04

think your book is a great

43:07

start for people to read because

43:09

I think what you do is humanize people.

43:12

And I think so many groups have

43:15

been dehumanized in our current culture,

43:17

whether you're talking about immigrants, or

43:19

you're talking about black Americans,

43:22

or you're talking about poor

43:24

white men in rural communities,

43:27

and I think to give them a name and a

43:29

face and to tell their stories

43:32

is really critically important

43:34

for us to better understand

43:36

what's going on and try to fix it. Harley,

43:39

It's been such a pleasure talking to you.

43:41

I really enjoyed meeting you, and I

43:44

love your work and I'm going to recommend

43:46

it to all my friends who are scratching

43:48

their heads and trying to understand

43:51

what's going on in this country of ours.

43:54

Thank you, Katie, you do wonderful

43:56

work too well. Thanks

43:58

a chance to talk to you.

44:00

Thank you, Aurlie. And hopefully

44:02

we'll meet one day in person.

44:04

Yes, I'm looking forward to that.

44:15

Thanks for listening everyone. If you

44:17

have a question for me, a subject

44:19

you want us to cover, or you want to share

44:22

your thoughts about how you navigate this

44:24

crazy world, reach out send

44:26

me a DM on Instagram. I would

44:28

love to hear from you. Next Question

44:31

is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie

44:33

Couric Media. The executive producers

44:36

are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz.

44:38

Our supervising producer is Ryan

44:40

Martz, and our producers are

44:43

Adriana Fazzio and Meredith

44:45

Barnes. Julian Weller

44:47

composed our theme music. For

44:49

more information about today's episode,

44:52

or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up

44:54

Call, go to the description in the podcast

44:56

app or visit us at Katiecuric

44:59

dot com. You can also find me on

45:01

Instagram and all my social media

45:03

channels. For more podcasts

45:05

from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio

45:08

app, Apple Podcasts, or

45:10

wherever you listen to your favorite shows

45:14

into It. Credit Karma makes navigating

45:16

your credit score straightforward and stress

45:19

free. With tools and personalized guidance,

45:21

you can piece together your financial puzzle

45:23

with ease. Whether you're looking for ways

45:25

to build your credit score or searching for the

45:27

perfect credit card, Credit Karma

45:30

has you cover plus with ongoing insights

45:32

tailor to your financial progress,

45:34

you'll stay on top of your game. Join

45:37

the millions taking charge. Download

45:39

the app and see how simple better

45:41

credit can be. Credit Karma

45:43

Start making progress today