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2:19

not only talk, but we communicate in a

2:21

way that says more about how we

2:23

feel about ourselves and trying to persuade somebody.

2:25

And the first thing you should do

2:28

is talk and communicate a set of ideas

2:30

and values of where people live their

2:32

lives, which is what animates me. And I

2:34

think this is the most important thing. Hi,

2:39

everyone. I'm Katie Couric, and this

2:41

is Next Question. I've

2:44

known Rahm Emanuel for a

2:46

very long time. He worked

2:48

for Bill Clinton. He worked

2:50

for Barack Obama, obviously. And

2:53

in fact, I did a profile

2:55

of him back in the day when

2:57

I was on 60 Minutes. I

2:59

got to know him so well, or

3:01

at least research him so well,

3:03

that I knew the reason his middle

3:05

finger is shorter than the others

3:07

on his right hand is because he

3:10

sliced it off in a meat

3:12

slicer. as a teenager when he was

3:14

working at Arby's. Yes, true story.

3:16

So it's very exciting for

3:18

me to get a chance to

3:20

catch up with him, to

3:22

talk about what's going on in

3:24

the country, to talk about

3:26

the Trump administration and everything it's

3:28

done, to talk about the

3:30

Democratic Party and everything many people

3:32

feel it hasn't done and

3:34

everything in between. So Rahm Emanuel,

3:36

welcome to Next Question. Thank

3:39

you so much for coming. Yeah. And it's

3:42

great to see you again. And

3:44

I'm seeing a lot of you.

3:46

No. Rahm, Mr. Ambassador. Yeah.

3:49

Congressman. Can't keep a job.

3:52

You've been on Jon Stewart. You

3:54

were on Bill Maher. You were

3:56

writing for The Washington Post. You

3:58

just signed a deal with CNN. And

4:00

of course, most importantly, you're sitting

4:02

down with me. So the question is.

4:04

Yeah, that was like reversed order. We were building

4:07

up. What gives? Are you running for

4:09

president or something, Rob? If I have

4:11

something to say, I'll say that. But, you

4:13

know, well, first of all,

4:15

you know, as an ambassador, you can't say anything. So

4:17

I feel newly liberated. I

4:20

got to get out of jail card. So

4:22

that's number one. But I also think things

4:24

are at a critical juncture, both

4:26

for the country, first and foremost,

4:28

and also for the party. And

4:31

I have, you know,

4:33

when I was

4:35

congressman in... of the

4:37

Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, we had

4:39

lost the 2000 presidential, the

4:42

2002 midterm and the 2004 presidential.

4:44

Kind of similar dire

4:46

circumstances for the party. But I also think in

4:49

the sense of what's at stake, I don't know if I'm

4:51

going to run. I think

4:53

a lot of people are spending time appropriately,

4:55

you know, obviously confronting Donald Trump. You

4:58

mean thinking about running? No, well, they're

5:00

kind of a lot of people just because

5:02

I think there's so much at stake. That

5:04

said. And

5:06

that's going to work, you know,

5:09

if you thought about it

5:11

in politics in 2026, the midterms,

5:13

it's a referendum on

5:15

Donald Trump, the Republican leadership, because they

5:17

run both chambers, both sides of

5:19

Pennsylvania Avenue. But to get the

5:21

public to give you the keys to the

5:23

car between 2026 and 2028, you

5:25

actually have to have a

5:27

view of fighting, not Donald

5:30

Trump, but fighting for America. And

5:32

I have... both through my career working

5:34

in Congress as mayor, but also President

5:36

Obama's chief of staff and senior vice

5:38

president Clinton. Thought a

5:40

lot about education, health

5:43

care, retirement security. Those

5:45

are things I've all worked on. And to me,

5:47

the thing that's most at

5:49

risk is the American dream. It's

5:53

not affordable to many people. It's not

5:55

accessible to many people. And

5:57

rather than just all they want is a shot. I

6:00

think, as I said before. that

6:02

got in the shaft. And so I'm going to spend my time. And

6:05

if I think about that and then think

6:07

about what I've worked on and have something

6:09

to offer, I'll think

6:11

about it. But it's not a yes

6:13

and no. It's what

6:15

I, you know, you'll know in

6:17

your gut. I really appreciate

6:20

how honest you are being, Rom, because,

6:22

you know, I've had to. Because that's

6:24

a rarity for an Emmanuel. No, but

6:26

I've had to ask a lot of

6:28

people, you know, during the course of my

6:30

career, what are you going to do?

6:32

And they hem and haw. But I think

6:34

that's probably the most honest answer I've

6:36

ever heard from somebody. Here's my thing,

6:38

which is, look, I mean, I get

6:40

the politics of fighting Trump because

6:42

there's real stakes and real interests. But

6:45

then if you think also about politics. You

6:48

have to fight for the American people. And

6:51

I'm going to spend my

6:53

time, as I have on education for

6:55

sakes, and I don't mean to go through

6:57

my record, but like we were the

6:59

first city to create free community college. you

7:02

got a B average in Chicago public

7:04

schools, we made both community

7:06

college, transportation, and books

7:08

free. You had to earn it. And

7:12

also, you couldn't get your high

7:14

school diploma. unless

7:16

you had a letter of acceptance from

7:18

either college, community college, a branch

7:20

of the armed forces or a vocational

7:22

school. So we made post high

7:24

school universal for a city to do

7:26

it. And to me, those are

7:28

like the essentials for access to the

7:30

American dream. That

7:32

not just your children, my children, they're

7:35

going to be, let's be honest, they're to be okay. I

7:38

mean, you worry about them, but they're going to be okay. They

7:40

can have, they got an education, they got a loving home,

7:42

they can navigate. For a

7:44

lot of other, Children and

7:46

families, that's not true. And

7:49

I want my time

7:51

spent thinking about how

7:53

do you make

7:56

that dream accessible? And if I think I have

7:58

an answer to that, then

8:00

I'll do something.

8:02

If I don't or it's

8:04

not in your belly, I

8:06

won't. There's

8:08

so many things I want to talk to you

8:10

about, but you mentioned the midterms, so I'm curious. thinking

8:14

about what may happen.

8:17

You're right. It is a referendum

8:19

on Donald Trump and the Republican Party.

8:21

Do you think people are going

8:23

to come out in droves? What do

8:25

you predict for the midterms? So,

8:28

first of all, you know, a month

8:30

used to feel like a year. A week

8:32

now feels like a year. So you're asking

8:34

me, I want to be clear, April

8:37

2025 about what's going to

8:39

happen in October and

8:41

November of 2026. Long time.

8:43

That said, two

8:46

things that are

8:48

pretty self -evident now can

8:50

change. So those are all my caveats. Now I'll

8:53

just run into it. The

8:56

most fascinating thing of two weeks

8:58

ago when there was Florida

9:00

and Wisconsin, well,

9:02

all of it was fascinating. One

9:05

was the

9:07

Supreme Court election in Wisconsin

9:10

wasn't just Milwaukee and Madison. There

9:12

was depth in the rural areas. Wow.

9:16

Second, the most fascinating thing to

9:18

me was Escambia County. It's in

9:20

Matt Gaetz's district. It's where Pensacola

9:22

is. It's

9:24

14 % veterans. The national

9:26

average is six. So more

9:29

than double veterans. Not

9:32

counting active duty in Pensacola,

9:34

Navy. Donald Trump

9:36

took it by 19 points, that county.

9:38

The Democrats won it plus three.

9:41

It had been decades, decades since

9:43

the last Democrat won it on

9:45

a federal election. So, you

9:48

know, if I told you on the night Donald

9:50

Trump was elected president that the new base for

9:52

the Democratic Party would be, you know, veterans

9:54

of the armed forces, you would not have taken

9:56

that bet. You wouldn't have taken that bet. It

9:59

was never possible. The second

10:01

thing that's fascinating to

10:03

me is in 2022, 2023,

10:06

and 2024, in special

10:08

elections, The only way

10:10

Democrats won was low turnout,

10:13

high turnout we did. Now,

10:15

every election since November has

10:17

been very, very high turnout, and Democrats

10:19

are short of the two Florida

10:21

seats, won everything. And

10:24

so it's not

10:26

totally dependent on a

10:28

low turnout, high education voter for the

10:30

Democrat. And so if you

10:32

look at the data today, you look

10:34

at consumer sentiment, I think the Trump

10:36

vote that was anti -Kamala. and

10:39

the swing slash independent voter that will make

10:41

up congressional districts. If the election were today,

10:43

and I don't know the map like I

10:45

used to, I would say the Democrats are

10:47

going to take double -digit numbers, somewhere

10:49

in the kind of 10

10:53

to, let's say, mid -teens. The

10:57

Senate's a little rough for real

10:59

estate, but you got the Virginia

11:01

governor's race in 2025. I'd have to bet

11:03

on the Democrats now. Abigail Spanberger,

11:05

right? And but also I think

11:07

you're going to if I was

11:09

doing the other race, I would

11:11

just make sure every there's a

11:14

Democratic name on every county commissioner,

11:16

on every city council, on every

11:18

aldermanic, all every school board have

11:20

every nothing is left because I

11:22

think this has to get as

11:24

many surf and surfboards and surfers

11:27

as there are. And just fill

11:29

it up because I think that's what's going

11:31

to happen. Yeah. Given everything that we

11:33

know this April, we're doing. This

11:38

April, we're doing this interview. I would

11:40

say this has a potential. You

11:42

can feel the momentum of this wave

11:44

building. Yeah, you know, I think

11:46

it's not too soon because everybody I

11:48

interview are all my followers, you know,

11:50

and I think they're a good bellwether,

11:52

Rom, about how people are feeling. I can

11:54

tell you two people I know of your followers.

11:57

Really, seriously. Who? One

11:59

is my yoga instructor. She

12:01

goes, the person pounding me to get

12:03

on your show is my yoga instructor. Amy's

12:06

my yoga instructor. Well, tell her,

12:08

thank you. Tell her I

12:10

appreciate it. But I am doing a lot

12:12

of interviews and I get a lot

12:14

of feedback from my followers. And I have,

12:16

you know, a few million

12:18

people who actually pay attention to

12:20

the people I'm speaking with. And

12:22

I would say the majority of

12:24

people, at least over the last. several

12:27

weeks. Now, maybe there was

12:29

a little glimmer of hope in

12:32

Wisconsin and Florida recently. But

12:34

they're like, what the hell

12:36

is going on with the Democratic Party?

12:38

We'll talk about the Republicans in

12:40

a moment. But, you know, words like

12:42

feckless, you know, lacking direction. Where's

12:44

the leader? And I'm curious if you

12:46

think that's a fair assessment. Yes

12:50

and no. That's the honest answer.

12:52

So one, I kind of I describe

12:54

it as a tale of two parties. One

12:56

is I just gave you results out in the country. So

12:59

there's Democratic voters. They're leading

13:01

and they're saying here's

13:03

there's massive energy and not

13:05

just among Democratic voters, but also

13:08

voters who see the Democrats as a

13:10

better option. So that's one part

13:13

of the narrative and one part of the story

13:15

and shouldn't be ignored because, I

13:17

mean, as I grew up with both President Clinton

13:19

and President Obama are kind of big part

13:21

of my political education. You know,

13:23

elections have consequences. You want a Supreme

13:25

Court justice? Win an election. You

13:27

want to pass a tax legislation that

13:29

favor working families? Win an election.

13:31

That's, you know, that's A. So that's

13:34

one side of the narrative. The

13:36

other side is, one is,

13:38

I don't

13:41

want to say limited to or

13:43

constrained, but is around Washington. And

13:45

I think given the speed in

13:47

which they were dealing with incoming

13:49

from President Trump, they got vertigo. They

13:52

couldn't tell up from down and, you

13:54

know, left from right. And they...

13:56

Wasn't that the plan? Steve Bannon flooding the zone?

13:58

but you know what? That was his plan. Well,

14:00

you got to have your plan. I

14:02

mean, and so, and I think, so

14:04

let me then fast forward. And

14:08

this is somewhat influenced because of my own

14:10

view about how the continuing resolution, the funding

14:12

of government was not dealt with. In

14:14

about, I think it's six weeks, if

14:16

I mind calculations, right? They

14:18

have to raise the debt limit. And my

14:20

general rules, I said this pre that

14:23

in February on this was on the government

14:25

funding on Kara Swisher's podcast, but I'll

14:27

say here for the debt limit. I said,

14:29

then you got to have principles. Well,

14:31

you got to have principles. My principles are

14:33

I would do something on tariffs. Claw

14:36

back the power. B on

14:38

taxes and C on health care. And

14:42

if you want our support for raising the debt limit, we

14:44

got three things. Now,

14:47

you don't meet them. You

14:49

guys have all the gavels and you have all the microphones.

14:52

That's your art of the deal. Yeah,

14:54

well, I mean, yeah. You want an

14:56

art of the deal? Yeah, it's called win -win. It's not

14:58

called win -lose. You like to win -lose. Well, we're not going

15:00

to be on that side of the trade. Okay,

15:03

so we want to claw back power on tariffs

15:05

because you've actually sent the economy into a

15:07

recession and working families have been there and stayed

15:09

there and now they're there really deeper down.

15:11

B. Here's what we're going to do on taxes

15:13

as it relates to the wealthy and well -off.

15:15

And here's what we're going to do as

15:18

it relates to Medicaid and premium support. You can't

15:20

cut it to pay for tax cuts for,

15:22

you know, Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk and the

15:24

rest of them. Forget about it. And that's

15:26

the price. And if you don't like it, that's

15:28

okay. You're the majority

15:30

in the House. You're the majority in the Senate. God

15:34

willing. And God bless you. And

15:36

so I want to say, so when in

15:38

1994, when Newt Gingrich tried to shut

15:40

the government down and did. Contract with America,

15:42

yeah. We did. Contract for America,

15:44

right? Well, it was a contract to

15:46

America. That's how I remember

15:48

it. But we had

15:50

M squared, E squared. Medicare, Medicaid,

15:52

education, environment. Those are the principles. And

15:55

you do that, you

15:58

can't touch Medicare and Medicaid, you can't cut environment

16:00

either. And at the end of the

16:02

day, Gingrich had a fold. Fast

16:06

forward to 2013. Now, these are around

16:08

government shutdowns. Slightly different also because working

16:10

for a president's microphone is slightly different

16:12

than when you're in the minority in

16:14

the House and Senate. It was called

16:16

the three Ps. Premium support,

16:18

parents, kids on their

16:20

health care, and pre -existing conditions.

16:24

And so you have to

16:26

have the principles you enunciate clearly

16:28

ahead of time. So what's

16:30

not? You can't do it 48 hours beforehand.

16:33

There's going to be a real need. Now,

16:37

the Freedom Caucus doesn't like

16:39

voting for these debt limits. Okay.

16:42

Well, it's not like we like it either, but

16:44

as Democrats, but if you want our vote, here's

16:46

our principles. And

16:48

they're pretty clear. Your tariffs

16:50

have created nothing but havoc

16:53

in people's lives and in the 401ks

16:55

and their savings and their college

16:57

funds for their kids. We

16:59

don't think you should cut premium supports and

17:01

Medicaid to do tax cuts for the rich.

17:03

And here's what we want for tax cuts.

17:07

And if not, well,

17:09

you know the speaker and you know the Senate Majority Leader and you

17:11

can work it out with them. And that, I think,

17:14

would give you the strength part that people

17:16

are looking for and direction part

17:18

that Democrats need to provide. Yeah. Some

17:20

kind of counter narrative, right? Well, I

17:22

think, look, my rule about politics when

17:24

I work. is what

17:26

unifies your side and divides the

17:28

other side. The

17:32

House and Senate Republicans aren't too happy

17:34

about tariffs. If you're from

17:36

an agricultural -driven state, so

17:38

you can either go with the

17:40

president or you can go with your state. You're

17:43

in a rural state or you're

17:46

in a tough congressional district, try cutting

17:48

Medicaid and see if your local

17:50

hospital survives. So you can either

17:52

be with President Trump or you can screw your local

17:54

hospital and all the people it employs. And so

17:56

my view is I have a very simple what unites

17:58

our team and divides the other team. Do

18:00

you think that calculation is finally getting

18:02

to some Republicans who are like,

18:04

holy shit, my loyalty to Donald Trump

18:06

is going to cost me. It's not

18:08

going to protect me. You know, you say that.

18:10

So let me the one thing I would say, look, I'm

18:13

surprised they've

18:15

gone this far putting

18:17

their principles in a lockbox. And

18:20

I look, there's very as a most

18:22

ambassador, as chief of staff. They're

18:25

very good. I mean, I can say this

18:27

about certain House members I worked with and

18:29

certain senators, Republicans I'm talking

18:31

about. Very decent people, smart people care

18:33

a great deal. I am shocked what they

18:35

go along with. Now, Democrats. I

18:39

mean, I mean, if we if

18:41

any president tried anything like

18:43

this on tariffs or anything on

18:45

the Justice Department, the FBI.

18:48

Bill Clinton did not fire Louis

18:50

Free. And

18:52

one of the one of the calculations

18:54

was the backlash. I'm shocked at this. So

18:57

I'm you know, you say to me, when

18:59

will the I don't know when the Republicans are

19:01

going to stand up. I'm like the last

19:03

person to ask. I'm like, you know, you must

19:05

be firm in your opinion. It's your principles you're

19:07

flexible on. I've never seen anything like

19:09

that. What's the explanation? You've been in Washington

19:11

a long time. Fair primaries.

19:13

I think there's an addiction to power

19:15

over. mean, I don't you know. You

19:18

did my biography. I mean, I love public

19:20

service. That's clear. Every senator and

19:22

House member I talk to that's in a

19:24

slightly marginal, they all talk about I was

19:26

talking to one senator the other day. You

19:28

raise all this money, you spend all this

19:30

time working and you hate the job. Really?

19:34

So do what you want to do

19:36

at least 50 percent of the

19:38

time. I get calculations about politics.

19:40

I love politics. You weigh equities

19:42

and tradeoffs. But you

19:44

literally spend all this time. running

19:48

around the country raising millions upon millions

19:50

of dollars with people you hope

19:52

sometimes you don't want to talk to

19:54

ever again for a job you hate. Wait

19:57

a second. They hate the job?

19:59

A lot of people think a lot

20:01

of part of Washington is specifically on the

20:03

legislative side. It's broken. Well, they're frustrated,

20:05

but that doesn't mean they hate it,

20:07

right? I mean, I think they're frustrated.

20:09

They went there with good intentions. No, no,

20:12

no, no. That's a good catch. It's

20:15

boiling over. And spilling

20:17

over to the other side of

20:19

the tracks, they're beyond frustrated because it

20:21

doesn't do. They came to do

20:23

stuff and with earnest interest. We

20:25

may not agree on it, but real

20:27

earnest interest. And I worked with

20:30

Republican senators and members of Congress and

20:32

Democrats. But it's just like it's

20:34

a broken institution that doesn't perform. Who

20:37

do you see as the rising stars in

20:39

the Democratic Party, Rom? Well,

20:42

there's a lot of talent. You know,

20:44

once you start naming names. Can I

20:46

name some names? Yeah, I mean,

20:48

I. Just to get your reaction. Sure.

20:50

Cory Booker. We were mayors

20:52

together. Very eloquent, beyond

20:54

eloquent. Understands both big

20:57

cities and a big state

20:59

talent. Gretchen Whitmer.

21:02

Big fan of Gretchen. And I

21:04

think she managed. And again, I

21:06

don't mean to look to politics,

21:08

but she managed. a purple state

21:10

effectively and dealt with the legislative

21:12

branch and made it, I think,

21:15

was kind of, people forget this when everybody talks

21:17

about the politics today, when she says, just

21:19

pay the damn, build the damn roads.

21:21

I mean, she caught the mood of

21:24

frustration. Well. Josh

21:26

Shapiro. We were,

21:28

you know, not only texting

21:30

yesterday, but he called me on Tuesday.

21:32

We were having a conversation. I'm a

21:34

fan as well. Cory Booker is

21:36

black, obviously. You have Gretchen

21:38

Whitmer. She's a woman. Josh

21:41

Shapiro is Jewish. Do

21:43

you think they could be elected? Yeah.

21:47

You know, so you cut it off there. I

21:49

thought you were to go on. I am

21:51

going to go to some people. So let me

21:53

say why I think so, okay? Rahm

21:56

Israel Emanuel. I

21:58

got elected to the north side of the city of Chicago. The

22:00

predecessors that had

22:03

the seat for me. Dan

22:06

Rosankowski, Roman

22:08

Puczynski, Frank

22:11

Anunzio, Mike

22:13

Flanagan, present holders

22:15

Mike Quigley, and Rob

22:17

Lagojevich. That's Chicago, Rom. But what are you

22:19

saying? No, no. Which name does not fit in there?

22:22

Rom Israel Emmanuel. It was a 2

22:24

% Jewish community. And when I ran for

22:27

Congress, President Obama used to tease me I was

22:29

a birther before anybody. I had to show my

22:31

birth certificate. They had to

22:33

prove that I was... in the country I could serve. And

22:36

it was an issue. The

22:39

district was only 2 % Jewish.

22:41

And it got ugly because I

22:43

was running principally against a Polish woman

22:45

in a Polish district. And some

22:47

of her backers said some ugly things

22:49

about my Judaism. And I'll say

22:52

to you what I have said then. I

22:54

know the people. I've met them in their L stops.

22:56

I met them on their front stoops. Good people raising

22:58

their kids to know right from wrong. And I trust

23:00

their judgment. And it turned out right. When

23:03

I was ambassador to Japan,

23:05

somebody had spray painted on the

23:07

fence Nazi symbols.

23:10

And the

23:12

next day, still don't know who,

23:15

some neighbor went over

23:17

and painted over it. Never

23:19

came forward. I've asked other. So

23:22

was there ugliness? There was ugliness. And

23:24

there was a generosity of spirit. So

23:27

anti -Semitism always

23:29

existed. Always. much

23:33

more public and people think it's more

23:35

acceptable. Now, that's one thing. We

23:37

did work for President Obama. So,

23:39

yes, there's more than a chance for

23:41

African -American to get elected. What's

23:44

interesting on women, this is a political

23:46

I'm probably going to get yelled at,

23:48

so I should watch myself, but I'm

23:50

here with you. What could go wrong? If

23:54

you look at Europe, Prime

23:56

Minister Maloney in Italy, conservative.

23:59

Margaret Thatcher, conservative. Chancellor

24:02

Merkel in Germany, the

24:05

conservative Christian Democratic Party in there, put

24:08

Scandinavia slightly aside. So

24:10

I could see in

24:12

America where it's more

24:14

likely the first female president

24:16

comes out of the conservative philosophy

24:18

than the progressive philosophy. Why is

24:20

that? I just think it has more

24:22

to do with the voters, etc.

24:24

On the other hand, let

24:26

me checkmate what I just said. A

24:29

governor. will

24:32

have proven something

24:34

that has a voice in

24:36

the language of a chief executive.

24:39

You know, a legislator

24:41

thinks, operates. When

24:44

you run for president and when you're

24:46

president, you have to project three qualities, strength,

24:49

confidence, and optimism. And it's more

24:51

likely to come from a

24:53

chief executive than a legislature. And

24:55

the public's more likely to accept

24:57

a former chief executive as a

24:59

president. than a legislature. And

25:02

I could be proven wrong, but

25:04

that's my take. Hi

25:15

everyone, it's Katie Couric. You know,

25:17

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29:26

I wanted to ask you

29:28

about Pete Buttigieg because I

29:30

think Pete is one of

29:32

the most impressive politicians of

29:34

modern times. I love

29:36

the compliment. I love that he goes

29:38

on Fox. I think he's

29:41

extraordinarily eloquent. And again,

29:43

I'm not getting into identity politics, but

29:45

I am just as a practical

29:47

matter. Could a gay man, in your

29:49

view, be elected president of the

29:51

United States? Yes. Really?

29:54

I just, you know, I

29:57

got in a little trouble when I was ambassador. I know

29:59

you found that hard to believe. It was so out of character for

30:01

me. you? Yeah, but they're still

30:03

an ally. Look at that. Three

30:05

years later, they're still an ally. So, you

30:08

know, Japan's very conservative culture. With

30:11

other ambassadors, I want to be very clear. It

30:13

was like 20 of us. When it

30:15

came to LGBTQ

30:17

legislation, kind of led a

30:20

public... this is

30:22

right before the G7 happens

30:24

in Hiroshima, and they finally

30:26

passed, like, their first

30:28

piece of legislation on LGBTQ

30:30

rights, just basically no

30:32

discrimination permitted. And

30:35

it was always interesting to me that in

30:37

Japan, like, 80

30:39

-some percent were

30:42

pro -gay marriage, but the

30:44

legislative, the die at their parliament, had

30:46

yet to pass it and still hasn't. Yet

30:48

in the United States, Gay

30:50

marriage is permitted by law, yet

30:53

we don't have close to 80 percent for it. So

30:56

in many ways, our legal and

30:58

political systems were ahead of our

31:00

public opinion. Their public opinion was

31:02

ahead of their legal and political

31:04

systems. So my own take is

31:06

it is doable,

31:08

but I think there's going

31:10

to be a comfort

31:12

level that has yet.

31:15

And I know I'm going to get yelled

31:17

at, oh, blah, blah, blah, but you're asking

31:19

me a political question, so I'm giving you a

31:21

political answer. Not my personal

31:23

views, somebody that led the effort in

31:25

both Chicago and Illinois for the

31:27

recognition of marriage equality. But

31:29

I think politically it's going

31:32

to happen. I just

31:34

don't think it's going to happen

31:36

immediately. Another person that... speculating

31:38

about is Gavin Newsom, and that's

31:40

nothing new. But he has a

31:42

podcast, and I'm curious how you

31:44

feel, Rom, about him and the

31:46

biting people. I am doing taping with him tomorrow,

31:49

so I feel very good. His

31:51

guest selection is brilliant. You

31:54

know, other than you, he's had

31:56

people like Steve Bannon, Charlie

31:58

Kirk. People think it's making a

32:00

play to be, you

32:03

know, less progressive, kind of

32:05

open, crossing the aisle,

32:07

whatever. However you want to describe

32:09

it. You know, and there's this

32:11

sort of whole philosophy, I think, illustrated

32:15

by Bill Maher's visit to Donald

32:17

Trump in the White House. Like, how

32:20

much do you engage with the other side?

32:22

And I'm just curious about, first

32:24

of all, you know, Gavin having those

32:27

people on his podcast. And

32:29

Bill Maher going to dinner with

32:31

Donald Trump and saying he was

32:33

gracious and he's not a crazy

32:35

guy. He just plays a crazy

32:37

guy on TV. Now, he was

32:39

critical about other things, but basically

32:41

saying, listen, we've got to

32:43

reach across the aisle. And,

32:45

you know, if

32:48

you truly believe democracy is

32:50

at risk and the things

32:52

that are being done are

32:54

morally corrupt, what

32:56

is the best way to approach

32:59

it? Being conciliatory or just

33:01

being the resistance? You are

33:03

asking a middle child of three boys, because

33:05

I used to say the middle children wrote

33:07

a book, War or Peace. We could do

33:09

either. So

33:11

let me just, you know, I'm

33:14

going to give you a story, an anecdote to

33:16

illustrate a point. I

33:20

was one that convinced

33:22

President Obama to put Ray LaHood,

33:24

a Republican congressman from Illinois, in

33:26

his cabinet. Now,

33:28

Ray and I became dear friends. Why?

33:30

We used to fly back after congressional

33:32

votes. And he was always trying to

33:34

catch a flight to Peoria. We'd land in

33:36

O 'Hare. And

33:39

one time he was trying to make a short connection. And

33:41

I was like at 8C and he was like at

33:43

28. So I went back and said, hey, Ray, you got

33:45

to catch that flight. I said, why don't you take

33:48

my seat? I'll just, because I'm going to just take the

33:50

train home. And then we

33:52

started up this friendship. That

33:54

friendship led not just to

33:56

Ray. getting the cabinet slot, and

33:59

we're still dear friends, but more

34:01

importantly, every other Wednesday

34:03

when we were in Washington for

34:05

votes, he would have six Republican congressmen, I would

34:07

have six Democrats, and we used to do private

34:09

dinners. Quiet, when I say private, just

34:11

upstairs, ties down,

34:14

sleeves rolled up, and we just let at it. And

34:16

it was six D's, six R's, and it was

34:18

different every time. And there's a lot,

34:20

there's friendships there, and we built friendships. There's

34:23

not a profile story that's done in

34:25

my tenure that Senator Dan Sullivan, Republican

34:27

from Alaska. Susan

34:29

Collins is a good friend in

34:31

that effort. Todd Young out of

34:34

Indiana. So I do believe

34:36

in not only keeping those channels open.

34:38

A lot of those people, when things have

34:40

happened or asked for clarity or talks

34:42

or discussions. Also true

34:44

about, you know, Alan

34:47

Simpson, who just passed away. So

34:49

I don't think you can. You

34:51

can have disagreements. I don't want to

34:53

use the cliche, oh, you could disagree

34:55

without being disagreeable, but that's kind

34:57

of an apropos distinction.

34:59

And then also for

35:01

politics, because, I mean, if

35:04

you don't have communication,

35:07

you're going to have misunderstanding, and that

35:09

can lead to a bad place. But

35:11

also, sometimes you're going to build up in

35:13

your head a perception, and

35:15

they're going to explain to you, A, that's

35:18

not the motivation. And B,

35:20

here's my actual bottom lines. So

35:23

it's kind of yes and no,

35:25

and it's both. And we'll have, you

35:27

know, and if we're going to

35:29

disagree, it's okay. We'll

35:31

just go slug it out on election

35:33

day. That's okay. But there's other things

35:35

that when you cross a line of

35:37

certain things, and

35:40

they're principled, no

35:43

line. That's it. And so

35:45

I can't give you, here's

35:47

a hard and fast rule. I

35:50

suppose I say that and then

35:52

here's my hard and fast rule, right? Always

35:54

have a line of communication that people know

35:56

how to talk to because then there's no

35:58

misunderstandings. And I'm thinking in the context of one

36:00

of either House to

36:02

Senate or White House to the

36:04

legislative branch. And,

36:07

you know, worst case scenario, I

36:09

say something to you which you don't want to hear and you say

36:11

something to me I don't want to hear. That's the worst case scenario.

36:13

So you would have dinner with Donald Trump if he

36:15

invited you? I might probably bring a

36:17

food taster, but yeah. for him, Yeah.

36:24

I would sit down with him, you

36:26

know, if he said something, and I would

36:28

tell him. But nobody's ever described Rahm Emanuel

36:30

as shy and reserved. I tell him what

36:32

I think. And I think what he's

36:34

done in the divisiveness of America at the

36:36

very time, I think what he's done on

36:38

these tariffs and what it's done to families

36:40

is horrible. At every

36:42

great juncture in America when

36:44

we've had divisions, we've been blessed

36:46

by presidents who've found a foundation

36:48

of common sense. And I think one of

36:51

the, there's no, let me say this also

36:53

when I lived for three years overseas. There's

36:56

nothing I see around the

36:58

globe that scares me for America.

37:01

But you go overseas, I learned a lot about

37:04

Japan. I learned a lot about the Indo -Pacific. You

37:06

know what I learned the most about? America. And

37:08

there's nothing. that

37:11

scares me about the future, that

37:13

if we're organized and

37:15

have a consensus about our interests

37:17

in this country, we're

37:19

unstoppable. And it's

37:21

one thing I'm, you know, I

37:23

want to tell you what I

37:25

actually, one thing is I'm thinking

37:27

about, I think this, and I

37:29

wrote about it in 2005, I

37:31

think the country needs universal national

37:34

service. Katie,

37:37

our generation. We have a

37:39

different runway. It's much shorter. Who's the general?

37:42

McChrystal. Yeah. And there's

37:44

others. But he is

37:46

really championed. I had him actually

37:48

in Chicago for Chicago Stories podcast

37:50

I did. And was my

37:52

podcast when I was mayor. And

37:54

we talked about this. And the

37:57

reason I say it is diversity is

37:59

not a guaranteed

38:01

strength. Has an incredible

38:03

potential. But it also

38:05

could be. And

38:07

adversary, our adversaries are

38:09

actually trying to divide America. And

38:12

if you don't have an agreement on the foundation,

38:14

the diversity doesn't work for you. If you

38:16

do, it's an incredible strength. And

38:18

when I looked at like the

38:20

Abraham Lincoln and the Ronald Reagan aircraft carriers that were

38:22

in Japan when I was there, started

38:27

under Ronald Reagan where foreign citizens can serve

38:30

our armed forces, earn their citizenship. And I

38:32

did a citizenship ceremony.

38:34

17 individuals, 11 countries, three

38:36

continents. Who are

38:38

these people from the African

38:40

continent, South America, except

38:43

other parts of the world,

38:45

and Indo -Pacific, serving America's

38:47

interests, its national security, its ideals,

38:49

and weren't even citizens. And

38:52

yet on that ship that has aircraft carriers,

38:54

5 ,000 plus people, it's like a little

38:56

city. There was people from all

38:58

walks of life, all parts of

39:01

the country, all faiths. but

39:03

with a purpose and a

39:05

mission and agreement on their values.

39:08

That's what the country needs. And

39:10

we're not just, you know, the

39:12

ship estate, et cetera, more than

39:14

just an aircraft carrier. I think

39:16

what the country needs is that

39:18

experience where a kid from the

39:21

south side of Chicago and

39:23

an individual from rural Arkansas, where

39:26

they're doing something together. And it

39:28

doesn't have to be just a

39:30

uniform. You can be

39:32

in Teach for America. You can be doing

39:34

an environmental cleanup. You can do literacy. Get

39:37

us out of our silos. Well,

39:40

so this is where both Iran, and

39:42

I don't mean to do this,

39:44

so don't, if you have stock in

39:46

Meta, but social media, Facebook are

39:48

dividing us. China, Russia,

39:50

and Iran are trying to

39:52

exacerbate our differences. Social

39:54

media has not brought us together.

39:56

It has broken us down into

39:58

little, little different categories. We

40:01

have adopted that language and

40:03

that idea, and we need to find what

40:05

brings us together. And I think nothing

40:07

does it like an experience. And I do

40:09

believe, and then I say this is

40:11

a father with both a son, active duty

40:13

in the Navy, and a daughter on

40:15

reserve. There is something

40:17

unifying to that experience that

40:20

will be with them, not

40:22

just their time, but the

40:24

rest of their lives. And rather than

40:26

have a generation growing up and... defining

40:28

what their rights are. I'd like them

40:30

to actually spend a little time also understanding

40:32

and appreciating what their responsibilities

40:34

are. And I think

40:36

that would make America a much stronger country,

40:38

and there's nothing China's doing that intimidates

40:40

me once we get that worked out. Do you

40:42

think that would ever happen? Yes. Really?

40:45

Yeah, but it requires an Oval

40:47

Office leadership. Look, President

40:49

Obama set up AmeriCorps. In

40:52

the first, I think it's seven

40:54

months of President Obama's tenure, we

40:56

doubled This was when Ted Kennedy

40:58

was ill. He and John McCain had

41:00

a bill. We doubled the support

41:02

for national service, both Peace Corps,

41:04

AmeriCorps, et cetera. Absolutely.

41:08

Now, I particularly have a bias towards

41:10

the armed services because of the needs,

41:12

but I don't think a uniform, and

41:14

I do think it should be a

41:16

mandatory six months of public service to

41:18

the country, to your community, yes. And

41:20

I do think the country would back

41:22

it up. You mentioned President Obama.

41:24

I'm sure you guys are still good

41:26

friends. I mean, what does he think of

41:29

what's going on, Ram? I

41:31

spent two years speaking for him. I'm

41:33

not going to do it now, but

41:36

based on everything I know about his

41:38

values, his interests, his beliefs, he's,

41:41

I'm sure, fit

41:43

to be tied about where

41:45

we are both as a country,

41:48

what we are doing to

41:50

ourselves. This is self -inflicted right

41:52

now. Nobody's

41:54

done anything to us. So

41:57

just take a step back. China

41:59

hasn't done anything. North Korea hasn't

42:01

done anything. The biggest challenge we have in the

42:03

world right now is America's credibility shot.

42:06

You can't do squat without trust

42:08

and credibility. We took our allies

42:10

and treated them like crap. And

42:12

they were poised to double down on

42:14

America and double down on our collective interests.

42:16

And we spit in their face. It's

42:20

crazy. Why do you think Trump's

42:22

doing what he's doing? You know, I think a

42:24

lot of. That's what I

42:26

think President Obama would say. But he's

42:28

here. He can speak for himself. Tell

42:31

him he needs to do it.

42:33

Tell your yoga instructor to call

42:35

Barack Obama. Why do you think

42:37

he's doing a lot of the

42:39

stuff he's doing with tariffs, with,

42:41

you know, Putin? You know,

42:43

all these different things. Everyone,

42:46

I think. It's really

42:48

scratching their heads. Like, what is the

42:50

endgame? What is the point? Why

42:52

are you doing this? No, it's interesting to

42:54

me. So let me do one of, you know, having

42:57

been in the White House for eight years of my life.

43:01

The one thing he talked constantly about

43:03

was tariffs. The one thing they couldn't

43:05

do is tariffs. The one thing he

43:07

said, we'll never, no, no project 2025 is

43:09

the one thing they knew how to

43:11

execute, which I happen to think gives credit

43:13

to the OMB director, Voigt. So it's

43:15

weird to me. That the thing he

43:18

said mentioned most, they had no idea what

43:20

to do about. It's the most chaotic,

43:22

disorganized, disruptive, and on goal I've

43:24

ever seen in politics. And

43:27

has exposed the president the United

43:29

States as very weak and not consistent.

43:31

And if the market goes sideways one

43:34

day, he'll change his opinion. And he's

43:36

shown all the vulnerability, no strength, and

43:38

no consistency. On the other

43:40

hand, the one thing he said, I have nothing to

43:42

do with that, never, never, is the only thing

43:45

they've executed with some kind of precision. So

43:47

it's like a split personality to me. That's one.

43:49

Which one? The Project 2025, all the cuts,

43:51

all the things that they're operating, all the people

43:53

they're getting rid of and the way they're

43:55

going about it and the freezing and attacks on

43:57

universities. I can just go through the whole

43:59

list with you. But that, they

44:01

shut down during the

44:03

campaign. How

44:06

many times did he say in

44:08

the campaign, tariffs, the most beautiful

44:10

word? And he said it everywhere.

44:12

I'm going to raise tariffs. Tariffs were going to

44:14

solve. measles from what I

44:16

know. Tariffs

44:18

were going to solve every problem. You had a

44:20

problem? Tariffs. You had this problem on tariffs. Well,

44:23

you didn't believe him about Project 2025 anyway.

44:25

I didn't believe that. Ready? Breaking news. I

44:27

didn't believe a word he said. But

44:30

to me, what's weird, he mentioned it

44:32

all the time, and there was no

44:34

strategic thought at all around it. The

44:36

one thing he never mentions that I

44:38

have nothing to do with is the

44:40

one thing that there was strategery around.

44:42

That's what's weird. So two.

44:44

Strategery, being a joke. That's a

44:46

George Bush word. Yeah. Okay. From Saturday

44:48

Night Live. No,

44:50

he actually said it, he? I

44:52

know he did, but then they

44:54

carried it out and made kind

44:56

of a nameplate. But the second

44:58

thing is, and here's to me

45:00

what's so, a component of what's

45:02

reckless. We

45:06

spent five years

45:08

convincing both Europe. and

45:10

our allies in Indo -Pacific to line

45:12

with us vis -a -vis isolating China. And

45:15

they were all there. It was

45:17

as set a table as you could

45:19

have. And

45:21

this White House,

45:23

specifically the president,

45:25

did not appreciate

45:28

how much China

45:30

was in the

45:32

jailhouse. They

45:34

were exporting their own domestic economic

45:36

problems, destroying their other countries' local

45:38

industrial economies, and countries who were

45:40

willing to organize around the United

45:42

States and follow America's leadership. And

45:45

now we're in a situation, China gets

45:47

a get out of jail card. We put

45:49

ourselves back in the jail, and we've

45:51

made ourselves the problem, and China looks like

45:53

the good, responsible adult, and we look

45:55

like the drunken adult walking around. Which will

45:57

lead a lot of countries into China's

46:00

arms. Well, not only lead them into China's

46:02

arms, lead them away from standing shoulder

46:04

to shoulder with us. I'll give you one

46:06

specific example. I spent a lot of

46:08

time on this. Our

46:10

export controls of high technology against

46:12

China had Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and

46:14

the Dutch standing shoulder to shoulder

46:17

with the United States. And China

46:19

felt it. We set them back.

46:22

Now, a week ago,

46:25

South Korea and Japan, having spent...

46:27

lots of hours building that

46:29

alliance with the United States. At

46:31

Camp David, we had an

46:33

accomplishment that was historic. China,

46:35

South Korea, and Japan are

46:37

aligning both their foreign policy and

46:39

their economic interests against the

46:41

United States. We're isolated. And

46:44

Samsung, one of the biggest producers of

46:46

chips in the world, just cut

46:48

a deal with a Chinese company that

46:50

is against the interests of the export

46:52

controls. And why did that happen? Because

46:54

nobody trusts the United States. And right

46:56

when you needed allies most, We don't

46:58

have any allies. We're the

47:00

enemy. We're the problem. And this

47:02

didn't have to happen. It just

47:04

this did not have to happen.

47:06

That's what's so weird. It's literally

47:09

we treated friend like foe and

47:11

we treated foe like friend. Putin

47:13

is sitting over there and stole

47:15

the president. Yes, I love your

47:17

ceasefire, except for these 25 conditions.

47:20

And so, you know, in the

47:22

name of his Orthodox Christian church,

47:24

he bombed people on Easter in

47:26

Ukraine. killed 34 people

47:28

on Easter. It's a very Christian thing to

47:30

do. And Putin knows

47:32

there's no responsibility from the United

47:34

States. Did you ever think, you're

47:37

a journalist, you and I collectively

47:39

here, what do we got, about

47:41

60 years in watching or participating in the

47:43

public? At least. Okay, yeah, we're not going

47:45

to do real math, okay? We're going to

47:47

do it. Did

47:49

you ever think in your lifetime

47:51

the United States at the United Nations?

47:53

would vote with Russia, China, Belarus,

47:56

North Korea, and Iran. That would be

47:58

a big N -O. Yeah. Okay, well,

48:00

it just happened. I

48:02

know. Against England,

48:05

France, Germany, Japan,

48:08

Korea, Australia,

48:10

New Zealand. We aligned

48:12

ourselves in both principle and

48:15

politics with Russia that

48:17

represses and kills people. China

48:20

that sent the Uyghurs

48:22

into camps and represses people.

48:24

North Korea. Belarus that

48:26

has no freedoms and arrests and

48:29

kills people as their own citizens. And

48:31

Iran. That's what we do. If

48:34

somebody had told me that was

48:37

going to happen, I said, take a

48:39

cup and get it to the

48:41

lab. Give me a break. Okay,

48:44

so what the hell? Why?

48:46

Because I've been talking to

48:48

so many people who are

48:50

experts on strongmen and authoritarian

48:52

governments. And is there an

48:54

explanation other than the fact

48:56

that Donald Trump wants to

48:58

be a dictator? No, see, you,

49:00

not you, Kay, because it is your

49:02

podcast and I'm not allowed to do that.

49:05

No, you can. No, I'm not going

49:07

to. There was always a shortchanging that it

49:09

was just an affinity for styles of

49:11

autocrats. There is that. There is a component.

49:13

I mean, look, he says that like,

49:15

gee, look how he controls 1 .4 billion

49:17

people. So there is an affinity for this.

49:20

He mentioned Viktor Orban during the

49:22

debate. Okay. But he also

49:24

said that President Putin and him have gone through

49:26

a lot together. Now, who knew they were dating? Okay.

49:29

But don't underestimate

49:32

the philosophical agreement.

49:35

He does it. I mean, I've said

49:37

this literally three months ago in a

49:39

piece in the Post. He has

49:41

a strategic alignment with them

49:43

about spheres of influence. That's the

49:45

only way you can explain

49:47

Greenland, Canada, Panama, and that whole

49:49

idea. He believes North America,

49:52

Central America, and South America are

49:54

America's sphere of influence. Indo

49:57

-Pacific, that's China's pond.

50:00

Europe, well, keep going until

50:02

it's not comfortable. And he

50:04

agrees with that. So does

50:06

he stylistically like the strongman?

50:08

Yes. Does he like the

50:11

fact that they have critics

50:13

get arrested? Yes, he does.

50:15

But he also philosophically agrees

50:17

with them. And here's

50:19

the thing. More land, more influence.

50:21

More power, yeah. And it's

50:24

an old politics. And here's what

50:26

he doesn't understand. One,

50:30

Putin and Xi are laughing at him

50:32

because they're good at this game.

50:34

This is not America's game. It hasn't

50:36

been America's game a long time.

50:38

Over 100 years. Our game

50:41

is what we just did. The

50:44

reason, look, Poland,

50:47

the Czech Republic, Lithuania,

50:50

Finland, Sweden, moved

50:52

west into NATO. NATO

50:54

didn't move east. They

50:57

moved west because they prefer freedom

50:59

versus the Russian bearer. They know

51:01

it firsthand. They don't want it.

51:04

Okay? He doesn't appreciate

51:06

that. has no sensibility to

51:08

that. And on China, the

51:10

reason our allies are working

51:12

with us, because they need

51:14

a want and desire, a counterweight

51:16

to an uncontrolled, untethered, uninhibited

51:19

China. And

51:22

America, through our allies, they're

51:24

not burdens. They're force multipliers

51:26

at every level. The

51:28

number one foreign investor in the United States

51:30

of America, U .S.

51:32

history for 200, Japan, four

51:34

years in a row, one million Americans work

51:37

for him. 48 % of the investments are all

51:39

in manufacturing. The single

51:41

largest purchaser of American treasuries, which we're

51:43

going to need a lot of, Japan.

51:46

What do we do? Spit in their face. You're

51:51

going to see it. You know what your

51:53

mother used to say? What goes around comes around.

51:55

Right? How many times you hear that? Or

51:57

you've gotten too big for your britches. Yeah, and

51:59

he's now going to learn what it means.

52:01

And America's alone. And

52:03

he thinks he's going to play their

52:05

game. That's not our game. And you don't

52:07

think this is going to end well?

52:10

No, I don't. I don't see how it

52:12

can. Because he tries to turn bad

52:14

qualities into good qualities. You know, this being

52:16

unpredictable. No, that's not... And I know

52:18

you've said he's a terrible negotiator, but... Well,

52:20

you tell me. He negotiated a deal

52:22

with China and not one thing happened in

52:24

it. That's a bad deal. He

52:27

negotiated with North Korea. Why?

52:30

Because he wants it more than them. Tell

52:32

me how... Let me ask you. Canada and

52:34

Mexico. How's inflation going?

52:36

Day one. How's the peace

52:38

in Ukraine? Day one. He

52:41

wants a deal better than Putin, so Putin

52:43

knows it. like

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move forward on your journey to

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mental wellness. Why

57:13

do you think people still

57:15

just worship him? I

57:19

think there's— A lot of Americans

57:21

still do. Yeah. You know,

57:23

because I do think—this

57:25

gets back to kind of

57:27

where we started on

57:29

electoral politics. And the Democratic

57:32

Party. Well, yes, about

57:34

Democrats, and I—yes. So

57:37

my take on 2024, Katie,

57:40

is there's two parts to it. Or

57:43

three, rather. One, when

57:45

70 % of the country thinks it's heading

57:47

in the wrong direction, that's just structurally

57:49

against an incumbent. It got worse from

57:51

Afghanistan, and the more President Biden kept

57:53

saying, oh, the economy's good, the economy's

57:56

good, the headwinds went from 20 miles

57:58

an hour to 70 miles an Second,

58:01

below that, I kind of think

58:03

of it as two races. So

58:06

President Biden's nine down. Kamala Harris gets

58:08

tapped. She runs on the economy all

58:10

right through the debate, and she goes

58:12

to plus three. She had an 11

58:14

-point swing. That's not a

58:16

statistical error. The day

58:19

after the debate, it's like a

58:21

schizophrenia. She goes

58:23

from the economy to democracy.

58:26

Now, if you care about democracy, which you and I

58:28

both do, we were yeses on the low. I can't

58:30

speak for how you vote, but I can speak for

58:32

anything. Why we dropped what got

58:34

us 11 -point, 12 -point swing, I have no

58:36

idea. Third, which

58:38

is then to the core

58:41

of your question, which is there

58:43

are three things in the

58:45

last 20 years that I think

58:47

change for America. I

58:49

think this again gets to the

58:51

core question of what I care most

58:53

about, which is in 2003, President

58:56

Bush leads the country to a war

58:58

of choice based on a lie. There

59:00

was no yellow cake from Niger. Still

59:04

never. Thousands of

59:06

young men and women. Lose

59:08

their lives and their livelihood.

59:10

No knees, no arms. And we

59:12

spent a trillion dollars on

59:14

a failed experiment built on a

59:17

lie. And now one person

59:19

ever held accountable for the worst

59:21

foreign policy disaster in American

59:23

history. Five

59:26

years later, there's this

59:28

massive financial meltdown. People

59:31

lose their homes. And

59:33

the fat bankers are

59:35

demanding their bonuses. And

59:37

not one of those

59:39

SOBs go to jail.

59:42

And they're still like impervious. They're shocked that

59:44

nobody would give them their bonus. And

59:46

people have no homes. They have no livelihood.

59:48

They have no equity left for their

59:50

retirement. So twice in

59:52

a short period of time,

59:54

both a lie and liar

59:56

loans destroy people's lives. And

59:58

nobody in the elite, in

1:00:01

the establishment, is held accountable.

1:00:05

President Obama's tenure, I argued for this Old

1:00:07

Testament justice that I believed we should have

1:00:09

done before healthcare. But that's why the president

1:00:11

gets paid big bucks to make big decisions. Fast

1:00:15

forward later, 12 years

1:00:17

later, you have COVID. And

1:00:19

we're running, and it's the most disruptive

1:00:21

thing in people's lives. As

1:00:23

I often said, that COVID was bad

1:00:25

for the body and not really great for

1:00:28

the body politic either. Schools

1:00:31

got disrupted. Work habits got disrupted.

1:00:33

People's, just everything got to turn

1:00:35

up. And Democrats went from the

1:00:37

anti -establishment, against the war, against

1:00:40

bankers, to scientists telling people how

1:00:42

to live their lives. Closer

1:00:44

schools. Just sit in the

1:00:46

corner. This is what science, well, I grew up

1:00:48

in a medical home. You don't, you

1:00:50

get a cut, you get a second opinion. And

1:00:52

these scientists walked around like they were experts. They had

1:00:55

never seen anything like this. You

1:00:57

know this, I care deeply about this. Six

1:00:59

months in, and Zeke and I

1:01:01

had massive arguments about this as

1:01:03

former mayor with 84 % of

1:01:06

his kids are from poverty. What

1:01:08

are you doing closing schools? These

1:01:10

kids are at home with no

1:01:12

education. And we're seeing the

1:01:14

consequences. And so you tell me why,

1:01:16

as he said to President Trump, I

1:01:18

will be the instrument of your rage.

1:01:20

And people are angry. And you and

1:01:22

I are doing this in New York,

1:01:24

this interview, right? Not far

1:01:27

from here, a CEO was shot.

1:01:29

People cheered the killer. There

1:01:31

was no, like, what happened to empathy?

1:01:34

That tells you, they never even met

1:01:36

the CEO. They don't know. And even

1:01:38

some elected officials said, well, you can

1:01:40

understand people's rights. Killing?

1:01:43

And that's, so when we

1:01:45

think of politics, you

1:01:47

study this. College versus

1:01:49

non -college. Urban

1:01:52

versus rural. Male versus

1:01:54

female. Black

1:01:56

versus white. Well. I'll

1:01:58

give you the biggest divide, establishment

1:02:00

versus everybody else. And everybody

1:02:02

else is sick and tired of

1:02:04

the established walking around because

1:02:07

they basically got three big things

1:02:09

wrong and they feel like

1:02:11

no culpability or accountability or, which

1:02:13

is like what I would

1:02:15

do. I'm sorry, we

1:02:17

messed up. Not, I

1:02:19

didn't agree with the Iraq

1:02:21

war. I was on the other

1:02:23

side of the financial piece,

1:02:25

but literally people. have seen the

1:02:27

elite, never held

1:02:30

accountable. How do you hold

1:02:32

people accountable for COVID?

1:02:34

I mean, you know, I

1:02:36

think people made their best decisions

1:02:38

based on the information they had. And

1:02:40

you'd be singing a very different

1:02:42

song if a lot of kids had

1:02:44

died of COVID because going to school.

1:02:46

But here's, of course I would.

1:02:48

But it was self -evident within six

1:02:50

months. You're saying that waited way too

1:02:52

long. The data was, first of all,

1:02:54

we closed the schools for two

1:02:56

years. The data is evident. We're

1:02:58

now at the worst reading and

1:03:00

math scores in 30 years. Full stop.

1:03:04

It's also evident kids that are in

1:03:06

red states that opened schools earlier are

1:03:08

slightly better than kids that grew up

1:03:10

in blue states and cities. It's a

1:03:12

fact. You can look at it. You

1:03:14

can argue it out. Third,

1:03:18

within six months, it was

1:03:20

getting to be very

1:03:22

clear. That if

1:03:24

you didn't have pre -existing

1:03:26

conditions and you weren't elderly,

1:03:28

the severity of COVID was

1:03:30

very limited. It was very

1:03:32

clear among young kids, almost

1:03:34

zero. Let me ask you,

1:03:36

why do you think the

1:03:38

establishment that you blame for

1:03:40

this was so slow to

1:03:42

realize this? I mean, what

1:03:44

was in it for them

1:03:46

to keep kids out of

1:03:48

school? Well, first of all,

1:03:50

there's a tonal piece, let

1:03:52

alone substantive. Okay. Totally.

1:03:54

You say, look, we don't have

1:03:56

all the data, but what we're looking

1:03:59

at, and a lot of people,

1:04:01

I get early on information, but a

1:04:03

year into it, you had patterns

1:04:05

of information. You also,

1:04:07

on the other hand, I don't

1:04:09

mean to absolve the scientists. You

1:04:11

had a president of United States talking

1:04:13

about Lysol and other things. And so you

1:04:15

were running against. The person with the

1:04:17

biggest microphone. Bleach, I think. Bleach, yeah. I

1:04:20

couldn't remember it was Bleach or Lysol.

1:04:22

Thank you for the 10 -yard penalty for

1:04:24

being the wrong guest. So that

1:04:26

to me was, I'm not saying

1:04:28

that people had a nefarious motivation,

1:04:30

but there was no sense that

1:04:32

we were in uncharted territories, no

1:04:34

sense that this is our best

1:04:36

guess. And it was a guess.

1:04:38

And when the data started becoming

1:04:40

overwhelming, we didn't want to change

1:04:42

our guess. So that's

1:04:45

the rearview mirror. Now what's the

1:04:47

windshield? I would be immediately going

1:04:49

into one -on -one tutoring for kids

1:04:51

that are behind. So you have

1:04:53

to stay afterwards. We're going to

1:04:55

have longer school days as it

1:04:57

relates to reading time and math

1:04:59

time until we catch up, including

1:05:02

summer. So we don't let the

1:05:04

summer, what's called the summer slide

1:05:06

set in. Is that what Alabama

1:05:08

and Mississippi are doing? One of

1:05:10

the things they have done is

1:05:12

both the times have been more

1:05:14

concentrated on topic. That's one kind

1:05:16

of common theme. Two, early intervention,

1:05:18

common theme. Third, back

1:05:21

to fundamentals, common theme.

1:05:23

And using one -on -one time

1:05:25

is a common theme.

1:05:28

So, yes. But there's patterns

1:05:30

of success here, or

1:05:32

rather, not success, success against

1:05:34

the tide. But

1:05:36

we need a national emergency.

1:05:38

Now, when you go back to

1:05:40

Ronald Reagan's A Nation at

1:05:42

Risk Bloom report, you

1:05:45

then all the way to

1:05:47

President Bush's Leave No Child

1:05:49

Behind, President Obama's Race to

1:05:51

the Top, President Clinton's Teachers

1:05:53

of Excellence, 100 ,000. Everybody

1:05:55

has had a touchstone of

1:05:58

education reform and accountability that

1:06:00

step by step over 30

1:06:02

years, we saw improvement. For

1:06:04

certain communities, we were at the

1:06:06

top tier of international standards. Other communities,

1:06:08

it was incremental but steady progress

1:06:10

in the right direction. We are at

1:06:12

a 30 -year reading low and a

1:06:14

30 -year math low. Do

1:06:17

you have that sense of emergency? Do you have

1:06:19

that sense of crisis? You're

1:06:21

shaking. I don't think you do. I do. But

1:06:24

do you see hearing out of the

1:06:26

national leaders? No. Oh, okay. I do.

1:06:28

I know you do. Yeah. I wouldn't

1:06:30

be here if I didn't know you

1:06:32

share that. Yeah. And there's no sense.

1:06:36

Ronald Reagan called together.

1:06:38

There was the report

1:06:40

on a nation at

1:06:42

risk. Well, they got rid

1:06:44

of the Department of Education. Well, they've starved

1:06:46

it. President Bush did Leave

1:06:48

No Child Behind and the accountability and the

1:06:50

testing, etc. And you could have reformed

1:06:52

that, but we threw it out. Yeah, a

1:06:54

lot of people hated that. Well, they

1:06:56

hated it because we went from... Teach to

1:06:59

the test. Versus testing to teach. Testing

1:07:01

was an information to inform teaching,

1:07:03

and we were teaching to the test.

1:07:05

That said, you didn't need to

1:07:08

throw it all out. It's pretty clear

1:07:10

that started a bad cycle. And

1:07:12

Margaret Spelling has done some really good,

1:07:14

interesting work on this. President Obama

1:07:16

had raised to the top, but everything

1:07:18

led to one place, improvement on

1:07:20

reading and math scores. To me, we

1:07:22

are in that emergency moment now,

1:07:24

and a president with a modicum of

1:07:26

interest would call an emergency meeting,

1:07:28

said, okay. We're going to fight about

1:07:30

taxes. We're going to fight about

1:07:32

tariffs. Kids reading,

1:07:34

no politics. Here's what we're going to have

1:07:36

to do. And then hold the

1:07:38

governors accountable for a 90 -day plan on

1:07:40

what they're going to do on one -on -one

1:07:42

tutoring, basics, et cetera. But what do

1:07:44

we do? Close Department of Education or starve

1:07:47

it to funds. That's our answer to

1:07:49

China. I want to

1:07:51

ask you a couple more questions, and I'm

1:07:53

going to let you go because you've been

1:07:55

so generous with your time, Ron. But I

1:07:57

want to ask you about— Oh, good. Good.

1:07:59

I'm glad I could be here for you.

1:08:01

Yeah. I left my blue cross and blue

1:08:03

shield card at the front desk. You

1:08:05

know, for the rest of this

1:08:07

administration, and perhaps if you listen

1:08:09

to Steve Bannon, another Trump term,

1:08:11

on a scale of one to

1:08:14

10, how nervous are you about

1:08:16

the damage he could continue to

1:08:18

do? So he

1:08:20

has been president for

1:08:22

80 days. You

1:08:24

got 200 weeks left. So

1:08:26

think of it that way.

1:08:29

In 80 days, he's taken

1:08:31

80 years worth of work

1:08:33

of building credibility through Democrat

1:08:35

-Republican presidents, Democrat -Republican congresses,

1:08:37

and he's severely damaged it.

1:08:39

The single greatest crisis we

1:08:41

have is not China's. Nobody

1:08:44

believes or trusts America anymore. So

1:08:46

you're talking about the international stage,

1:08:48

right? Well, that's one. I also

1:08:50

think it's also true here at

1:08:52

home. I think it's

1:08:54

very true at home. And so

1:08:56

when you say to me the

1:08:58

core question, not just internationally, but

1:09:01

it's such an impact on what

1:09:03

we're trying to do economically here

1:09:05

at home. But also democratic norms

1:09:07

and institutions, you know, like saying

1:09:09

he's going to investigate Chris Krebs

1:09:11

because Chris said he didn't think

1:09:13

the election was rigged. Totally,

1:09:16

you know, weaponizing the

1:09:18

Justice Department, something he

1:09:20

railed against. All

1:09:22

these things that are, you

1:09:24

know, not listening to judges

1:09:26

or belittling judges. I'm talking

1:09:28

about like internally, Rob. You

1:09:31

know, obviously, internationally, that's a huge

1:09:33

concern. And I can see how

1:09:35

your view has been expanded by

1:09:37

your experience being an ambassador. But

1:09:39

what about here at home? Here

1:09:41

at home, his assessment of the

1:09:43

problems is not always wrong. Like

1:09:46

as it relates to the potential

1:09:48

to bringing manufacturing jobs or how.

1:09:51

The solution is worse than the illness.

1:09:53

You and I learned, or at

1:09:55

least I learned, three

1:09:58

equal branches of government. Not

1:10:00

one. Not one among all equals.

1:10:02

Nope. That's not what

1:10:04

we learned. I learned three equal branches

1:10:06

of government. One branch controls the

1:10:08

purse strings. Sometimes.

1:10:10

Yeah, sometimes when they're doing their job.

1:10:12

And the court very specifically is

1:10:14

going to have to, as he said,

1:10:16

call balls and strikes. Well, we're

1:10:18

going to find out, you know. Whether

1:10:21

he can see. But aren't we

1:10:23

going to find out if Donald Trump

1:10:25

can hear? Yeah, that's going to

1:10:27

be a case. See what I did

1:10:29

there? Yeah, I did. I saw

1:10:31

that. Yeah. Whether you can hear

1:10:33

the crowd booing. No,

1:10:35

hear what the justices say. I understand.

1:10:37

Well, take a look at what he's

1:10:39

done with the court as it relates

1:10:41

to the person in El Salvador. So,

1:10:45

you know, I think this

1:10:47

is and this will have ramifications.

1:10:49

You know, every president has

1:10:51

a tenure and then they have

1:10:53

a legacy that's left behind

1:10:55

that is like a bomb blast

1:10:57

that reverberates past the specific

1:10:59

time they serve. And this will

1:11:01

have a lasting impact at

1:11:04

home and obviously abroad and in

1:11:06

the economy. So scale of

1:11:08

one to 10 on the worry

1:11:10

meter. You

1:11:12

know, it's. So

1:11:15

I'm very worried, although I don't

1:11:17

underestimate the resilience of the American people,

1:11:19

but it takes... Don't. I mean,

1:11:21

I know you rolled your eyes. I

1:11:23

don't know if people can see

1:11:25

it. Like, roll it. Okay, I saw

1:11:27

it. I'm calling you out. It

1:11:31

looked very familiar to some of

1:11:33

my children at the kitchen table

1:11:35

when I say something. Oh, God,

1:11:37

here goes Dad again. No,

1:11:39

the American people... You know, when

1:11:41

called to, they can it's an

1:11:43

incredible resilience. They haven't been called

1:11:45

to. And it is also they

1:11:47

have. So I think the ramifications

1:11:50

of what Donald Trump's are doing

1:11:52

is grave and serious, not just

1:11:54

for now, but for years later.

1:11:57

But there is a core piece

1:11:59

to the American people, which

1:12:01

when. There is that

1:12:03

leadership, they will answer not just

1:12:05

the call, the responsibility that comes, but

1:12:08

they have not been challenged to

1:12:10

do that. And you see glimmers of

1:12:12

that. I see it, you know, I

1:12:15

see a lot of it in

1:12:17

local, not just politics, in local communities.

1:12:19

Yeah, I do. I see

1:12:21

people coming together, you

1:12:23

know. But you also

1:12:25

see protests, know. Protests is

1:12:27

one manifestation. But I see people,

1:12:29

when you see a family

1:12:31

hurt in your community, people volunteer

1:12:33

to do things, etc. So

1:12:35

I do. And I see people

1:12:38

across faith, across class, across

1:12:40

race, across gender, working together and

1:12:42

doing things in common purpose. You

1:12:45

know, in a weird way, having

1:12:47

been national and then local

1:12:49

as a mayor, there's more

1:12:51

common purpose locally than there

1:12:53

is national. I used to

1:12:55

jokingly said, D .C.'s, you

1:12:57

know, Disneyland on the Potomac.

1:12:59

OK, but you go to

1:13:01

a city, you go into

1:13:03

a community in that city,

1:13:05

there's more. There's more unifying

1:13:07

kind of texturing and threads

1:13:09

that bind people. That

1:13:12

has been lost, which is why

1:13:14

I believe so firmly in

1:13:16

the kind of almost antibody that

1:13:18

national service would provide. Because

1:13:20

we, look, I've been very influenced

1:13:23

by this book of Boys

1:13:25

and Men by Richard Reeves and

1:13:27

John Hayes' book. you know,

1:13:29

as it relates to technology. The

1:13:31

anxious generation. the anxious generation.

1:13:34

That we have this generation slipping

1:13:36

through our fingers. And

1:13:39

I think that, not

1:13:41

that National Service in and

1:13:43

of itself will solve,

1:13:45

but it does, it's the

1:13:47

best anecdote and kind

1:13:49

of biotic against this kind

1:13:51

of aimlessness. Or

1:13:53

this feeling that the future is

1:13:55

not going to be better.

1:13:57

You know, that the future is

1:14:00

depressing and kind of a

1:14:02

why bother attitude. Well, I mean,

1:14:04

they have a phrase in

1:14:06

China, the

1:14:08

generation, I forget the exact phrase,

1:14:10

but it says a lying

1:14:12

down generation. We

1:14:14

in America have kids

1:14:16

lost to substance abuse, lost

1:14:18

to technology. Or

1:14:21

just lost. Yeah. And there's

1:14:23

not the hope in their eyes

1:14:25

and the hope in their

1:14:27

voice. And I think we need,

1:14:29

that is, there's something in

1:14:31

the spirit of America that can

1:14:33

be renewed, should be renewed.

1:14:35

And with that, there's nothing that

1:14:37

will hold America back. You

1:14:39

are someone who is intimately familiar

1:14:41

with the inner workings of

1:14:43

the White House. And I'm curious,

1:14:45

I know you're not in

1:14:47

there now, but as an observer

1:14:49

and someone who says, You

1:14:51

know, the only people around the president,

1:14:54

the only four words they know are what?

1:14:56

What did you say? Yes,

1:14:58

sir, Mr. President. They're limited. Their grasp

1:15:00

of the English language is limited to

1:15:02

four words. Yes, sir, Mr. President. So,

1:15:05

you know, I mean, President

1:15:07

Obama, President Clinton said this, sir.

1:15:09

Those were not the four

1:15:11

words I used to say. I'm

1:15:13

sure. I'm sure. And you

1:15:16

look at the cabinet meetings and

1:15:18

everyone goes around praising Donald

1:15:20

Trump. Yeah. I mean, it's freaky.

1:15:22

Including his doctor that tells

1:15:24

you his golf game's great. Right?

1:15:26

Yeah. Victorious golf games. That

1:15:28

killed me. That he's victorious. I

1:15:31

like Rick Riley's book, Commander

1:15:33

and Cheat, which is all about

1:15:35

Donald Trump's golf habits. But

1:15:37

I guess my question to you

1:15:39

is, who do you think's

1:15:41

pulling the strings right now? Do

1:15:43

you think it's Stephen Miller?

1:15:45

Who is the great... of puppeteer

1:15:47

behind the scenes, if there

1:15:49

is one? Well, I mean, one

1:15:51

is Chris Voigt over at

1:15:53

Office of Management and Budget OMB.

1:15:56

There's no doubt when you look

1:15:58

at how one piece of the

1:16:00

White House is the decimation of

1:16:02

what they quote unquote call the

1:16:05

deep state. It's been methodical. They've

1:16:07

been thinking about this for four

1:16:09

years. Every step, every dollar, every

1:16:11

penny, every person. Like

1:16:15

methodical. The tariffs. It's all

1:16:17

Donald Trump. Chaos everywhere. And the

1:16:19

guy that's methodically executing the

1:16:21

attack on, quote unquote, whatever the

1:16:23

deep state is, is

1:16:25

Chris Voigt. I want to ask you

1:16:27

in closing about the Democratic Party. I

1:16:30

know we we talked about that for

1:16:32

a moment, but I want to ask

1:16:34

you about something you recently said. To

1:16:36

describe the way Democrats communicate, you

1:16:39

said, quote, we use language to feel

1:16:41

good about ourselves, not to communicate.

1:16:43

We all act like we're trying to

1:16:45

become an adjunct professor at a

1:16:47

small liberal arts college. It's insane. Okay,

1:16:49

I'm from Chicago. How many people

1:16:52

do you think at a local diner

1:16:54

say the word oligarch? What's

1:16:56

wrong with Rich? Now, I get

1:16:59

the spirit of what is being done

1:17:01

out there, and you can see by

1:17:03

the crowds, but the marketing material calls

1:17:05

oligarchs. You've got to understand where

1:17:07

the American people live their lives. You've got to

1:17:09

understand how they live their lives. And you have

1:17:11

to find—and I'll give you a classic. I hate

1:17:13

this philosophy. I hate this whole term. I hate

1:17:15

the whole thing as a person whose uncle was

1:17:17

a Chicago cop. We're going to

1:17:19

defund the police. And when you

1:17:21

call them on it, they say, well, this

1:17:24

doesn't mean what it says. So you

1:17:26

want to know why we're losing black voters,

1:17:28

Hispanic voters, Asian voters, Silicon Valley? Because

1:17:30

we talk in a way

1:17:32

in which people— We communicate

1:17:35

things had me until you said Silicon

1:17:37

Valley. We lost Silicon Valley. But that's

1:17:39

not because people are saying the word

1:17:41

oligarch. No. Well, I don't know. They

1:17:43

may be the oligarchs we're talking about.

1:17:45

Yeah, they are the oligarchs. You're right.

1:17:47

Yeah, but we talk and we not

1:17:49

only talk, but we communicate in a

1:17:51

way that says more about how we

1:17:53

feel about ourselves and trying to persuade

1:17:55

somebody. And the first thing you should

1:17:57

do— is talk and

1:17:59

communicate a set of ideas and values

1:18:01

of where people live their lives, which

1:18:03

is what animates me, and I think

1:18:05

this is the most important thing. You

1:18:08

and I were just talking about aimlessness,

1:18:10

loss, and loss of hope. All

1:18:13

people want is a shot at the

1:18:15

American dream, and all they've gotten is a

1:18:17

shaft for 20 years, both parties. And

1:18:19

we owe them the decency, not a guarantee,

1:18:21

of a shot. You

1:18:23

sound like Bernie and AOC. You know,

1:18:25

we started here, I don't know.

1:18:28

Bernie talks about free community college. I

1:18:30

did free community college. Free college,

1:18:32

he talks about. I did free community

1:18:34

college in Chicago. I raised the

1:18:36

minimum wage. I did universal pre -K.

1:18:38

They're values that we hold. We

1:18:40

may not agree on the

1:18:42

means, but on the ends,

1:18:45

in the sense of equity,

1:18:47

in the sense of giving

1:18:49

people a shot and a

1:18:51

voice. Yeah. I mean,

1:18:53

when I was in Congress, it was

1:18:55

my bill to re -import pharmaceutical drugs,

1:18:57

to re -import. Canada's prices. Bernie and

1:18:59

I worked on it together. Do

1:19:01

you think Bernie and AOC are the

1:19:03

future of the Democratic Party? They

1:19:05

are attracting huge crowds. They are out

1:19:07

there energizing people everywhere. I think

1:19:10

people are energized. That's the part. A

1:19:12

lot of people want to assume

1:19:14

power starts in Washington. People

1:19:16

are already energized. They are

1:19:18

putting a spotlight on it. Thanks

1:19:28

for listening, everyone. If you

1:19:30

have a question for me, a

1:19:32

subject you want us to

1:19:34

cover, or you want to share

1:19:37

your thoughts about how you

1:19:39

navigate this crazy world, reach out.

1:19:41

Send me a DM on

1:19:43

Instagram. I would love to hear

1:19:45

from you. Next question is

1:19:47

a production of iHeartMedia and Katie

1:19:49

Couric Media. The executive producers

1:19:51

are me, Katie Couric, and Courtney

1:19:53

Litz. Our supervising producer is

1:19:55

Ryan Martz. And our producers are

1:19:57

Adriana Fazio and Meredith Barnes.

1:19:59

Julian Weller composed our theme music.

1:20:01

For more information about today's

1:20:03

episode or to sign up for

1:20:06

my newsletter, Wake Up Call,

1:20:08

go to the description in the

1:20:10

podcast app or visit us

1:20:12

at katiecouric.com. You can also find

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me on Instagram and all

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my social media channels. For more

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podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit

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the iHeart Radio app. Apple Podcasts,

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or wherever you listen to

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your favorite shows. Hi,

1:20:27

everyone. It's Katie Couric. You

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know, I'm always on the go

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between running my media company,

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hosting my podcast, and of course,

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covering the news. And I

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know that to keep doing what

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