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2:00

I'm Kitty Crick and this is

2:02

next question. I am super

2:04

psyched you guys because my

2:06

guest today is the creator

2:08

of the show everyone is

2:10

talking about. The White Lotus.

2:12

I'm obsessed. In its second

2:14

season, the series follows a

2:16

group of wealthy vacationers and

2:18

the people who work at

2:20

a stunning seaside resort in

2:22

Sicily. Welcome to the White

2:24

Lotus. I am Valentina. The

2:26

Resort Manager. How is it

2:28

both right? It was Belisimo.

2:30

I mean, I'm impressed that

2:32

you're even here. Why are

2:34

you impressed? It's a long

2:36

trip from Los Angeles, and

2:38

you're quite old, no? Anyway,

2:40

Isabella here, we'll take you

2:42

up to the hotel and

2:44

bring you to your beautiful

2:46

room. And offer you a

2:48

glass of plastic. Oh, thank

2:50

you, dear. You're a cypressora.

2:52

Mike White spent much of

2:54

his time on the periphery,

2:57

creating characters who were too.

2:59

Loneurs, weirdos, and wanderers. In

3:01

movies like Chuck and Buck,

3:03

The Year of the Dog,

3:05

with Molly Shannon, The Good

3:07

Girl with Jennifer Aniston, and

3:09

School of Rock, with Jack

3:11

Black. Popular movies in their

3:13

own right, but nothing like

3:15

the mean-producing headline-driving, conspiracy-filled chatter

3:17

surrounding the white lotus. It

3:19

seems like it's a new,

3:21

slightly uncomfortable position for Mike

3:23

to be in. I see

3:25

myself as an underdog and

3:27

I'm always like that, like

3:29

I'm always gonna see myself

3:31

as like somebody who has

3:33

to prove something. So like

3:35

even in success I still

3:37

feel like, I don't know.

3:39

I'm not an, I don't

3:41

feel like an imposter, but

3:43

I feel like I'm, I

3:45

don't know, like I, you

3:47

know, I slipped in through,

3:49

yeah, the side door or

3:51

something. Today we dive into

3:53

all of it. the making

3:55

of the show, the anatomy

3:57

of those crazy characters, Mike's

3:59

childhood, and how he really

4:01

feels about his newfound fame.

4:03

So let me just first start

4:05

by asking, what does it feel

4:07

like to be Mike White these

4:09

days? Well, what a question. We

4:12

honestly just finished the final episode.

4:14

We had a very crazy shooting

4:16

schedule that because of COVID and

4:18

because of. weather and Italy and

4:20

a lot of different reasons, we

4:22

went over our shoot. And so

4:24

I thought HBO would give us

4:26

a little break and let us

4:28

err later than what we were

4:30

expecting. And instead, they were like,

4:32

we need it when we need

4:34

it. And so it cut into

4:36

our post. So I was editing

4:38

and finishing the show up until

4:40

like 10 days ago. So I've

4:42

just been like I'm living in

4:44

Hawaii right now for tax reasons.

4:46

There's a good incentive for them

4:48

to do the post here, which

4:50

is great. But I saw I've

4:52

been kind of in a bubble.

4:54

I've just been finishing the show,

4:56

living on an island. And so

4:58

yeah, it's I don't know. I

5:00

don't know what it's like. But

5:02

it but it doesn't I'm not

5:04

getting it's not like I'm. It's

5:06

not like I'm walking around LA

5:08

and like getting high-fives people or

5:10

anything like that. So it's it's

5:12

it's it's it's it's sense that

5:14

the people are watching the show

5:16

and liking it and I'm definitely

5:18

getting that but it's but it's

5:20

just pretty I'm still kind of

5:22

living on an island and living

5:24

in a bubble. Well having said

5:26

that though Mike let's get real

5:28

I mean you are sort of

5:30

the envy of everyone in Hollywood

5:32

and this is something that you've

5:34

talked about kind of willingly in

5:36

an article you did in in

5:38

vulture you talked about Hollywood who's

5:40

up who's down kind of how

5:42

people are all envious of one

5:44

another and that you're uber competitive

5:46

so have you been having said

5:48

all that Mike have you been

5:50

able to take a moment and

5:53

kind of say bomb. Oh my

5:55

God, no, no, that's so not

5:57

me. But I, but yes, I

5:59

am, I'm, you know, it's honestly,

6:01

Katie, I feel like I'm, you

6:03

know, I'm 52 years old and

6:05

I've been doing this since I

6:07

was. 22 years old. And so,

6:09

and I've had, you know, a

6:11

lot of things made and a

6:13

lot of things that I thought

6:15

were successful, but not at this,

6:17

yeah, with this kind of reaction.

6:19

And so I just sort of

6:21

feel like to use the like,

6:23

since I'm in Hawaii, like an

6:25

analogy that fits here, which is

6:27

like, I feel like I'm a

6:29

surfer who's been out in the

6:31

ocean for a long time and

6:33

like, I caught a wave. I

6:35

caught a wave. a why this

6:37

wave, but like, you know, obviously

6:39

I'm old enough and have had

6:41

a long enough career to see

6:43

it as, yeah, a blessing, but

6:45

also something that you can't, you

6:47

know, I would never try to

6:49

chase this reaction because I just,

6:51

it's just, it's just, you just

6:53

never know what's gonna, yeah, what

6:55

people are gonna respond to. So

6:57

I'm excited. I'll take your word

6:59

for it that that's, that it's,

7:01

yeah, I don't know. I'm obviously

7:03

I'm happy. It's like, I mean,

7:05

I was like at the age

7:07

where I was just like, can

7:09

I keep doing? You know, like,

7:11

it was like, maybe the old

7:13

gray Mary ate what she used

7:15

to be in. I've got to

7:17

like, so like it's nice to

7:19

have a little like, yeah, it's,

7:21

it's, it's definitely fun. I'm very

7:23

excited, but I'm, I don't know,

7:25

I don't know, whatever. that HBO

7:27

had access to a hotel that

7:29

was empty in Maui during COVID

7:31

and came to you and said,

7:34

hey Mike White, can you write

7:36

a show that takes place in

7:38

a hotel? Is that how it

7:40

started? It kind of. It definitely

7:42

was like they they need they

7:44

had a lot of projects that

7:46

had fallen apart because of COVID

7:48

and so they just they I

7:50

was kind of like, I was

7:52

like, it was my idea to

7:54

do it in a hotel and

7:56

I was like, I was like,

7:58

I could write a show in

8:00

a bubble that was like, that

8:02

would maybe be immune from some

8:04

of the COVID issues that they

8:06

had come up on. And so,

8:08

so they asked me to do

8:10

it like, can you come up

8:12

with a bubble show? But they

8:14

didn't have a, I was like,

8:16

it was my idea to do

8:18

it in a hotel and I

8:20

was like, just yeah defunct and

8:22

they were just had shut down

8:24

because of COVID and I was

8:26

like we could grab one of

8:28

those hotels of bed in Hawaii

8:30

but they didn't even really want

8:32

us to go to Hawaii because

8:34

that was already to treacherous potential

8:36

issues with COVID they wanted us

8:38

like they probably would have been

8:40

happy if it found like a

8:42

hotel like Lancaster like you know

8:44

across the street in Casey Boyce's

8:46

house or something right so like

8:48

so yeah I just so yeah

8:50

I had to push for Hawaii

8:52

but yeah it was kind of

8:54

a mix a mix of mix

8:56

of that. And tell me a

8:58

little bit about how you were

9:00

inspired to write really both seasons,

9:02

but let's start with the first.

9:04

I mean, when you sit down

9:06

to write this, Mike, what were

9:08

you trying to accomplish? I know

9:10

that's kind of a big broad

9:12

question, but I'm just curious, you've

9:15

got a blank screen, a blank

9:17

computer screen, and you decide, I

9:19

want... to show class differences. I

9:21

wanted to show really interesting characters.

9:23

I think one of the things,

9:25

one of many things I love

9:27

about the show is it feels

9:29

very current. You know, sometimes things

9:31

get made and they come out

9:33

a couple of years later or

9:35

even a year later and they

9:37

don't feel, oh, current or of

9:39

the moment. And I think White

9:41

Lotus felt so tuned in to

9:43

current sensibilities. So just talk to

9:45

me a little bit about your

9:47

thought process when you put finger

9:49

to keyboard. You're talking about like

9:51

the first season? Yeah, sure. And

9:53

then we'll talk about this. second.

9:55

Yeah, the first season it was

9:57

I, I, I, I, I, I,

9:59

you know, I've spent a lot

10:01

of time in Hawaii. So, you

10:03

know, some of in a lot,

10:05

in Hawaii, there's definitely like two

10:07

classes. There's the, you know, the

10:09

tourists and the money to people

10:11

who, you know, can be at

10:13

any, you know, some of them

10:15

do very well financially but they're

10:17

all servicing these tourists and so

10:19

you you know if you hear

10:21

long enough you get like this

10:23

you know that you I obviously

10:25

know the tourist side of it

10:27

because I've been there and I

10:29

you know it's like in a

10:31

lot of my friends who visit

10:33

you know so I get that

10:35

part of it but then also

10:37

you know the service side of

10:39

it And I just felt like,

10:41

you know, there's something about doing,

10:43

you know, because obviously hotel or

10:45

like fantasy island, you think love

10:47

boat, like there's like, there's like

10:49

a history of these kind of

10:51

shows in this kind of, you

10:53

know, but like trying to get

10:55

a genre exactly, but to do

10:58

something that is a little bit

11:00

more well observed and that kind

11:02

of gets that, you know, I

11:04

just thought it was like an

11:06

interesting about how money. who

11:08

has the money impacts relationships both

11:10

obviously from the server and the

11:12

you know customer but also you

11:14

know the husband and the wife

11:16

and the father and the child

11:18

and and and so it just

11:20

felt like maybe as a theme

11:22

that seemed rich and so that

11:24

was kind of initial impulse because

11:26

I was like we're gonna be

11:29

in a hotel you know nobody

11:31

can leave. It kind of has

11:33

to be a crucible, you know,

11:35

and so yeah, it kind of

11:37

built out from there. And then

11:39

it was just like years of

11:41

maybe years of too much being

11:43

online and like Twitter speak and

11:45

like I was just like, I

11:47

was like, I just started freestyle

11:49

as far as just like trying

11:51

to get at some of the,

11:53

yeah, I don't know, the kind

11:55

of contemporary language and stuff like

11:57

that. And when I watch, I

11:59

wonder... How much of this did

12:01

Mike learn from being on reality

12:03

shows? How people act? Because obviously

12:06

you were in Survivor on Survivor.

12:08

I understand you're a good friend

12:10

of Jeff Probst. You love reality

12:12

television. You were on the Amazing

12:14

Race with your dad. So did

12:16

some of those experience help inform

12:18

your writing for White Lotus? Am

12:20

I getting too weird on these

12:22

questions? No, not at all. I

12:24

mean, I actually, what I loved

12:26

when I... you know, because I

12:28

was obviously a writer before the

12:30

big reality boom, which I think

12:32

started like in 2000-ish, and then,

12:34

but like, you know, a show

12:36

like Survivor came along and you

12:38

were like, wow, it was showing

12:41

people, you know, one minute they

12:43

would be very irritating or very

12:45

petty and then the next minute

12:47

they would be very vulnerable and

12:49

your heart goes out to them

12:51

and then they could be courageous

12:53

and I don't know, it was

12:55

just like, you would see these.

12:57

these I mean because they were

12:59

people it was like fully dimensional

13:01

humans and even though maybe the

13:03

format could be formulaic there was

13:05

something I just as a writer

13:07

I was like this is this

13:09

is you know this this makes

13:11

you want to raise your game

13:13

as far as like when you

13:16

are creating characters that people are

13:18

watching because it felt like they

13:20

were always surprising and you were

13:22

you know you just you there

13:24

wasn't some internal integrity obviously but

13:26

there was also all of these

13:28

colors and so it I've always

13:30

wanted to try to write characters

13:32

that could match you know some

13:34

of the great care you know

13:36

personalities that you see in reality

13:38

TV so yeah I do think

13:40

that's a that's a part of

13:42

it and I just think that

13:44

when I was very young starting

13:46

early I was I was always,

13:48

you know, I had Sam Shepard's

13:50

mother was my second grade teacher

13:53

and she loved her son and

13:55

I loved her and so it

13:57

was the first time that I

13:59

realized, oh, people were playwrights. So

14:01

very early on I was writing

14:03

little plays and so like I've

14:05

always listened. I've always been like

14:07

interested in how people talk because

14:09

I've always thought about things in

14:11

terms of dialogue and then also

14:13

how what they say about themselves

14:15

doesn't always necessarily match what they

14:17

think and doesn't always match what

14:19

they are going to do and

14:21

so that's always been interesting to

14:23

me and so I've always been

14:25

kind of an observer of of

14:28

that I guess. I think your

14:30

childhood though in addition to being

14:32

taught by Sam Shepard's mother in

14:34

second grade which is a cool

14:36

little fact, a trivia fact. You

14:38

grew up in an evangelical household

14:40

in Pasadena, and yet you were

14:42

always skeptical about religion. What was

14:44

your childhood like, Mike? Well, my

14:46

parents were very loving, and I

14:48

had a very nurturing positive nuclear

14:50

family. My dad was a minister,

14:52

and we were part of a

14:54

bigger, kind of, yeah, evangelical religious

14:56

community. It was that community where

14:58

it was definitely felt, I always

15:00

felt a little alien, I never

15:03

really drunk the Kool-Aid as they

15:05

say, and I always, yeah, it

15:07

was there where I think that

15:09

I, you know, some of the,

15:11

you know, part of drama is,

15:13

is, yeah, getting past the, you

15:15

know, the facade and trying to

15:17

see what people really do and

15:19

what people really are like, beyond

15:21

what they say they do. I

15:23

think there's a lot of hypocrisy

15:25

in a lot of those smaller

15:27

evangelical communities about, you know, certainly

15:29

around sex and around how people,

15:31

you know, think about, you know,

15:33

what the motivations for behavior are

15:35

and stuff. And so I have,

15:37

so it always, I always felt

15:40

like I was like, I always

15:42

wanted to know, I was like,

15:44

what's the, what's the real, you

15:46

know, like I've always been like,

15:48

you know, interested in like what

15:50

really. How what people do and

15:52

how that that's sometimes not really

15:54

in line with how they present

15:56

themselves I think that shows up

15:58

in a lot of your work

16:00

Mike. I was what rewah watching

16:02

Brad's status. And I think that

16:04

was very effective in terms of

16:06

this inner turmoil Brad, aka Ben

16:08

Stiller, is experiencing, comparing his station

16:10

and life to all of his

16:12

college friends who were doing much

16:15

better. And I think that external

16:17

internal conflict is something, it seems

16:19

to me that you go back

16:21

to. I read that when you

16:23

were 11, your dad came out

16:25

to your family. He was a

16:27

minister, as you mentioned, but also

16:29

a gross writer for people like

16:31

Jerry Falwell and Tammy Baker. And

16:33

you once said finding out about

16:35

your dad's sexuality is quote, the

16:37

key to everything I write. How

16:39

so? Yeah. Well, just in the

16:41

sense of what I was just

16:43

talking about, which is, you know,

16:45

It's a big rug to be

16:47

pulled from under you, where you

16:50

think your family is this thing

16:52

and your dad is this thing

16:54

and he's a minister and then

16:56

you realize there's this other whole

16:58

other side, which isn't necessarily a

17:00

dark side, it's just a truth.

17:02

And the truth is in contradiction

17:04

to what he's supposed to be

17:06

in the world. And so I

17:08

think, you know, exploring that and

17:10

and... And I think that that

17:12

yeah that just just to me

17:14

just you know obviously it hit

17:16

home in a literal way just

17:18

that you know we are more

17:20

complicated than we present ourselves and

17:22

that we put a certain face

17:24

to our community and that that

17:27

maybe in drama and showing some

17:29

of that. Obviously there's a titillation

17:31

part of it, but then there's

17:33

like maybe some kind of solace

17:35

to know that like everybody is

17:37

grappling with this, like that the

17:39

person that we want to be

17:41

and the person that the world

17:43

wants us to be, we're not

17:45

always that and that's okay and

17:47

that's human and that kind of

17:49

thing. You went to West. I

17:51

know and you said you finally

17:53

found your people there. So how

17:55

did Wesleyan affect you not only

17:57

as a person, but as a

17:59

writer? Well, I was in a

18:02

kind of more homogenous community growing

18:04

up in high school, you know,

18:06

and grade school. And so going

18:08

to Wesleyan. it was a very

18:10

open-minded liberal community in general and

18:12

also just these kids were so

18:14

sophisticated it was like I was

18:16

just like I just felt like

18:18

I was like behind the curve

18:20

you know I was kind of

18:22

a self-taught I mean I mean

18:24

I mean I went to a

18:26

good school but it was like

18:28

as far as culture and stuff

18:30

I was just I was you

18:32

know I had my own like

18:34

subscription to the New Yorker for

18:37

I don't know I was I

18:39

was just trying to find my

18:41

way through the culture and so

18:43

like I went to Wesley and

18:45

all these you know there are

18:47

a lot of I mean it

18:49

was a lot of New York

18:51

Jewish kids who are like very

18:53

like fully like you know you

18:55

know like new fancy people and

18:57

I was just like I kind

18:59

of was just I felt like

19:01

a rub but I got but

19:03

I was so enamored by the

19:05

yeah the whole vibe there and

19:07

and the still to this day

19:09

a lot of those kids I

19:12

met there are my my my

19:14

friend group. And when you graduated

19:16

from Wesleyan, were you really interested

19:18

in playwriting or just writing in

19:20

general? Well, I wanted to be

19:22

a playwright. I wanted to be

19:24

Sam Shepard. I went from California

19:26

to Wesleyan to Westian and I

19:28

was like, I didn't have socks.

19:30

I didn't realize how cold it

19:32

was back east. I was like,

19:34

this is too cold for me.

19:36

So I was like, I was

19:38

like, my plan was to go

19:40

to New York and be a

19:42

starting playwright. I don't know if

19:44

I could handle this weather. I

19:46

was like, so I like kind

19:49

of, I fell into the wrong

19:51

crowd and came back to LA

19:53

and I was, you know, started

19:55

writing for movies and TV. After

19:57

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19:59

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single-hegratties. It's way pasty. Not so recid,

22:21

not recid, or need any idea, I'd

22:24

like it, I'd like to read, I'd,

22:26

I'd like to, I'd like to, I'd,

22:28

I'd like to, in a new, I'd

22:31

like a nice, a, a, five-for-foota, a,

22:33

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27:35

the fun thing about yeah, what

27:38

I like about this format is

27:40

that like I like I kind

27:42

of like a slow simmer You

27:44

know, so it's it's fun. You

27:46

know, I think the pleasure of

27:48

this one and Certainly this season

27:50

and last season too. I think

27:52

is like, you know, you hope

27:54

you create very credible characters and

27:56

you create a situation that like

27:58

you're like it passes the bullshit

28:00

detector to some degree and that

28:02

and then and then and then

28:04

just start to like cook up

28:06

the gap you know like turn

28:08

up the heat just so it's

28:10

like you know it's like almost

28:12

like when you're on the on

28:14

yeah roller coaster and you're like

28:16

chichicha and you're like going on

28:18

me like this is gonna go

28:21

really far down like we are

28:23

really going to so so yeah

28:25

and I think the finale hopefully

28:27

will satisfy the catharsis and I

28:29

mean yeah there's gonna be a

28:31

lot of There's gonna be a

28:33

lot of gnashing of teeth and

28:35

it's it yes, but yeah, you

28:37

should be worried I keep thinking

28:39

about that story of the woman

28:41

that fell that they threw off

28:43

the mountain I also keep worrying

28:45

about the The wife of the

28:47

the cheesy finance guy saying oh

28:49

You're going to die here. They're

28:51

going to have to drag you

28:53

out of this place. I keep

28:55

thinking, uh-oh, what does that mean?

28:57

Have my right to pick up

28:59

on some of these things? I

29:01

mean, well, some of them are

29:04

intentional to build the finale and

29:06

some are a little bit misdirects

29:08

so that people think, yeah, you

29:10

want people to like feel like

29:12

they're, you know, Miss Marple and

29:14

they've got the clues, but you

29:16

need extra clues. You know, it's

29:18

not so obvious what happens. But

29:20

I think people, I think even

29:22

if you guess, you're gonna be

29:24

surprised with just how it all

29:26

falls. apart. I love the way

29:28

you use art interchangeably. First of

29:30

all, obviously you're obsessed with kind

29:32

of those water shots, which I

29:34

really like too, but I love

29:36

the I love the painting, the

29:38

artifacts, the architecture, the the shots

29:40

of the porcelain head head of

29:42

that same porcelain head guy that

29:44

you keep going back to again

29:47

and again. Tell me your thought

29:49

process about using that as a

29:51

way to propel. the story forward

29:53

or to foreshadow things or to

29:55

echo what might be going on

29:57

at the time. Yeah. Can you

29:59

tell I've been watching very intently?

30:01

Yeah that's awesome. Yeah well the

30:03

test is tomorrow is when I

30:05

got there I was like because

30:07

they're everywhere in Sicily those heads

30:09

and and the story behind it

30:11

has to and the reason for

30:13

the whole season was because these

30:15

heads I was like because I

30:17

would go around like these heads

30:19

are everywhere and it was about

30:21

adultery and violence and sexual jealousy

30:23

and I was like That's just,

30:25

I had a different idea for

30:27

the second season. I was like,

30:30

no, we got to do an

30:32

operatic, like Italian, sexual jealousy story.

30:34

I mean, it's like, that's what

30:36

people want to see anyway. But

30:38

also, this is the part of

30:40

my job that people should be

30:42

jealous of, which is I go

30:44

to Sicily, I'm telling them I'm

30:46

doing White Lotus, all of the

30:48

rich. like Sicilians who have these

30:50

palazzos are willing to let me

30:52

come in and like snoop around

30:54

their house. I got to see

30:56

all these and so like two

30:58

of them ended up in the

31:00

show, but like you walk around

31:02

you have no idea that behind

31:04

this like, you know, edifice is

31:06

like this incredible palazzo. They're all,

31:08

a lot of them are hidden.

31:10

It's like, and then to be

31:13

able to like get access to

31:15

those and see them and I

31:17

was like, we kind of like,

31:19

so when we would get into

31:21

these places, I was like, we

31:23

gotta shoot, we gotta just like

31:25

fire hose this down like, we

31:27

gotta get every piece of art

31:29

on the walls, like we gotta

31:31

do a pushins on all of

31:33

the, you know, so I for

31:35

someone who like, you know, you

31:37

know, likes, likes, you know, like,

31:39

like, like, like, like, like, like,

31:41

like, classic maximalist, eclectic, like, you

31:43

know, like rich, you know, palazzas,

31:45

like, I was just like, I

31:47

was in heaven, so I just

31:49

felt like I had to make

31:51

the most of it. And I

31:53

mean, it must have been an

31:56

extraordinary place to film. And is

31:58

that a real hotel? Was that

32:00

hotel vacant as well? Yeah. Tell

32:02

me about the location. I want

32:04

to go to that hotel. Yeah,

32:06

you should. It's the Sandomenico Palace,

32:08

which is like a very historic.

32:10

It was originally a convent and

32:12

then turned into a hotel, but

32:14

it's been a hotel for quite

32:16

a long time. And Laventura was

32:18

shot there. It's like, it's amazing

32:20

because obviously, you know, I got,

32:22

we looked at a lot of

32:24

different hotels and it's just like,

32:26

first the convent part of it

32:28

just gives it this added kind

32:30

of vibe. And then, you know,

32:32

you see these terrorist hills with

32:34

all these different, you know, villas,

32:36

you know, that are so classic

32:39

and European. And then you have

32:41

the Greek theater on one side,

32:43

and then the IOMI and C

32:45

in front, and then Mount Etna,

32:47

which is literally, you know, belching

32:49

smoke half the time, and you're

32:51

just like, this is, if we're

32:53

going to go to Europe, this

32:55

is what you go for. You

32:57

go for these views. So it's

32:59

definitely, I highly recommend Tarmina and

33:01

Sicily itself. It's like, it's like,

33:03

you really can't spend enough time

33:05

there. It's like, you can't spend

33:07

enough time there. I was like,

33:09

okay, we've done the sightseeing, but

33:11

like, it's just like, then there's

33:13

just this like vibe over time

33:15

that just really seduces you. Did

33:17

you find Lucia and Mia in

33:19

Sicily? No, we found them in

33:22

Rome. Simona who plays Lucia is

33:24

actually from Naples and Mia's from

33:26

Rome, but we had a great

33:28

set of casting directors from Italy

33:30

who brought us a lot of

33:32

options and those, to and Sabrina

33:34

impatiatory who plays the manager. They're

33:36

all they were all incredible and

33:38

so fun to work with. Yeah,

33:40

they were fun to watch. I'll

33:42

tell you that and I know

33:44

that you have said that the

33:46

show satirizes wealthy white privilege and

33:48

you've said that your intention was

33:50

to quote a quote, quote, poke

33:52

the bear, but through a humanist

33:54

perspective. So help us out with

33:56

that, Mike. What did you mean?

33:58

Well, poke the bear. I don't.

34:00

you know obviously I'm satirizing privilege

34:02

but you know especially with the

34:05

first season I also was poking

34:07

the bear as far as some

34:09

of the I don't know, like,

34:11

I wanted to give voice to

34:13

both, you know, the critiques of

34:15

the patriarchy and all of these

34:17

things that, you know, we are

34:19

discussing, you know, and have been

34:21

discussing with fervor in the last

34:23

couple years, but also give voice

34:25

to the people that are, you

34:27

know, it's like, you know, I

34:29

have hearing, you know, like, like

34:31

some of the conversations that I'm

34:33

hearing that people don't want to

34:35

say in public, but like, You

34:37

know, like not, you know, make

34:39

it so it you're kind of

34:41

walking the line where, okay, well,

34:43

that sort of is a fair

34:45

point and then like, oh, yeah,

34:48

but you're saying that because this

34:50

is, you know, you're, you're defending,

34:52

you know, you're on your heels.

34:54

So like trying to make it

34:56

so it's not so, such a

34:58

simple, pre-digested conversation and, and, and

35:00

have those conversations, you know, multi-layered.

35:02

Multi-layered enough that like people feel

35:04

like, oh, they're being seen and

35:06

then it's still challenged. And so,

35:08

and that was, that was what

35:10

I was trying to do. And,

35:12

you know, like, and the fact

35:14

that like, people on both sides

35:16

of some of these arguments, like

35:18

champion the show or also like

35:20

hated the show, it made me

35:22

feel like I did my job.

35:24

Yeah. So you're really. showing some

35:26

of those tricky conversations that people

35:28

do have behind closed doors. And

35:31

I think that that's what contributes

35:33

might to the realness of the

35:35

show and the dialogue that, you

35:37

know, you feel like this is

35:39

what people really are talking about

35:41

and that you're not following some

35:43

kind of prescriptive dialogue to be

35:45

on the right side of any

35:47

issue. because I don't even I

35:49

don't even it's like ultimately it's

35:51

like I don't think it's the

35:53

dramatist job to it's I don't

35:55

think it's it's a message conveying

35:57

machine if I was trying to

35:59

make a mess then I would

36:01

be communicating in a different medium

36:03

or a different kind of, it's

36:05

really about giving voice to the

36:07

different people who exist in our

36:09

world and try, you know, and

36:11

do my best to make it

36:14

feel like it's a, you know,

36:16

a dimensional conversation. After the break,

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36:20

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38:06

Our kids have said to us since

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Explorer minnesota.com slash live. prior

50:03

and then working with them

50:05

even more so Murray is like

50:07

you know he's I think he's 82

50:10

years old and he's so

50:12

still like enamored with the process

50:15

and acting and storytelling and

50:17

it's inspiring and Michael is

50:19

one of the most he's

50:22

in the pantheon of

50:24

like the easiest most, like, generous

50:26

actors I've ever worked with. So, like,

50:28

those two are incredible. And then, of

50:31

course, Adam DeMarco is one of the

50:33

sweetest kids. So, like, they were a

50:35

great group, like, contextually, as far as

50:37

the ideas of that's, I just feel

50:40

like, you know, I wanted, you know,

50:42

it's kind of getting into male sexuality

50:44

and desire and male role, you know,

50:46

the role, like, you know, men's roles when

50:48

it comes to romance and how they deal

50:51

with women and just. voicing the

50:53

different generational attitudes in

50:55

the kind of classic

50:57

way and how they're

50:59

all kind of, even

51:01

though they're all sort

51:03

of negotiating with the

51:05

new ways of talking

51:07

about relationships and sex

51:09

and interactions with women, that

51:12

they're all kind of trapped

51:14

in a certain sense to.

51:16

Derek, who works on this

51:18

podcast, he's one of the

51:20

producers. talked about how this

51:22

season portrays a wide variety

51:25

of sexual relationships and entanglements

51:27

and you were just talking

51:29

about sex. Just as the

51:31

opening title sequence portrays increasing

51:33

debauchery in the art as the

51:36

rollicking theme song plays, the show

51:38

itself feels like it's revealing more

51:40

and more about the ways that

51:43

humans experience their sexuality or suppress

51:45

it or given to it or

51:47

both even. These are Derek's

51:49

observations, and I'm curious

51:51

what you think of that and sort

51:54

of how you were trying to portray

51:56

different just different kinds

51:58

of relationships. And for

52:00

example, you portray sex workers,

52:03

you know, Lucia and Mia very

52:05

differently than kind of what we

52:07

normally see in TV books or

52:09

movies. Well, you know, with the

52:12

title secrets, I basically said, you know,

52:14

it should start with these kind

52:16

of pretty, you know, like, like

52:18

you're going into a palazzo

52:20

and the beautiful walls and

52:22

then you start seeing little

52:24

things in the corners and

52:26

you realize there's this kind

52:28

of. mischievous or even

52:31

kind of creeper, pervy, like sexual

52:33

things that are happening in the

52:35

margins. And then by the end

52:38

of the credit sequence, it's almost

52:40

like a Bosch painting of like

52:42

just, you know, where, you know, the

52:45

carnality of it and in the

52:47

desire of it is like front

52:49

and center. And I felt like

52:51

that with the season too, which

52:53

is like you start off and

52:55

it's like. you know the little bit

52:57

of these repressed people trying to

52:59

like you know figure out like you know

53:01

how to have a good vacation and

53:03

that like being in in in sight

53:06

to of Sicily and and in this

53:08

kind of little crucible that like the

53:10

desire and you start seeing desire in

53:12

everyone and it's yeah it becomes

53:14

a very horny show and I just felt

53:16

like it was like you know like and as

53:18

far as like uh yeah I mean And I, yeah,

53:21

I just, you know, I don't, I

53:23

don't think I'll always write stories like

53:25

this. It's not certainly my wheelhouse, like

53:27

directing scenes of like intimacy between people

53:29

and like getting people nude and stuff.

53:31

It's just like I was like. You

53:33

know, like I was like, this is

53:35

not something that I'm doing naturally.

53:37

Yeah, I was like, whatever you guys

53:39

want to do, like, what's, thankfully, you

53:42

know, when you hire actors that are

53:44

exhibitionist, they're often less inhibited than I

53:46

am. So like, they're like, oh, you

53:48

want me to take my top off?

53:50

Yeah, sure. If that's good. Yeah. So

53:52

yeah. So that was, but I, but

53:55

I, but I, but I do feel

53:57

like it was like it's fun to

53:59

show. I actually think it's fun to

54:01

show women, horny, horny women because

54:03

I feel like that sometimes is

54:05

something that like, you know, a

54:08

lot of times in drama, it's

54:10

like they're either victimized or virginal

54:12

or like, I don't know, or

54:14

it's like this kind of like,

54:16

you know, like they'll talk, it's

54:18

like sex in the city, it's

54:20

like it's very like talky, but

54:22

like, you know, where you're actually

54:24

feeling the desire and feeling the,

54:26

you know, it's like. And, you

54:28

know, to me, that just feels

54:30

true to life, I guess. I

54:32

don't know how to put it.

54:34

But anyway, so, so yeah, so

54:36

I just thought it was like,

54:38

let's do sex. Let's just go

54:40

all in. And that was kind

54:43

of the, I was like, if

54:45

we're going to go all in,

54:47

it's like, by the end, you

54:49

just want to feel like, yeah,

54:51

the animal in the, in each

54:53

of these human characters. So this

54:55

is the big question. Is there

54:57

going to be a white? Is

54:59

there going to be a third

55:01

season? Yes, they picked us up

55:03

for a third season, yeah. So

55:05

yes. Where, Mike? Where? Well, I

55:07

want to go to Asia. That's

55:09

what I think, look. I mean,

55:11

it feels like, you know, you

55:13

started like America, then you do

55:15

Europe, feels like the next one

55:18

would be, I don't know, like,

55:20

I don't know why that feels

55:22

like, I'm trying to think like,

55:24

like, yeah, where does Katie current

55:26

go on vacation? Where? I was

55:28

in, yeah, I was in Berlin

55:30

staying at a classic old hotel

55:32

in the middle of Berlin. I

55:34

forget the name of it. And

55:36

you were staying there at the

55:38

same time with, I ran into

55:40

you, I ran, I think we

55:42

were like there the same days

55:44

or whatever, because I ran into

55:46

you, you're very friendly, you seem

55:48

like you're having a good time.

55:50

I was with my husband. who's

55:53

still my husband. Good, great. And

55:55

yeah, you guys, I don't know

55:57

if you were there for work

55:59

or vacation or whatever, but you

56:01

were there for vacation. And you

56:03

know, my husband, John, is a

56:05

huge survivor nut. I mean he

56:07

has seen every season he finds

56:09

it fascinating so he loves you

56:11

from Survivor. Oh that's cool well

56:13

I think it was prior to

56:15

me during Survivor it was? I

56:17

think it was what didn't yeah

56:19

I got married in 2014 so

56:21

it was probably I think it

56:23

was like after that it was

56:26

like 2015 yeah it was 2016

56:28

maybe 2015 okay so yeah I

56:30

did Survivor 2017. Okay so yeah

56:32

I did Survivor 2017. Well now

56:34

you see you seem you seem

56:36

very you know you seem like

56:38

you had happy energy I I

56:40

like I like to you from

56:42

just the vibe. That's so nice.

56:44

Well, do you is I don't

56:46

want to spoil the finale, but

56:48

do you think we'll see Tanya

56:50

in the third season? I love

56:52

well, I love writing Tanya and

56:54

I love I love we're gonna

56:56

Jennifer so definitely could be You

56:58

can't tell me if you tell

57:01

me you you'd have to kill

57:03

me right Mike Well, what do

57:05

you mean? You're wondering if she

57:07

dies? Well, you never know could

57:09

be I'm not telling you You

57:11

know, I don't want to ruin

57:13

it a huge. Thank you to

57:15

my guest Mike White. I imagine

57:17

you're all tuning in this Sunday

57:19

December 11th for the finale to

57:21

find out who makes it out

57:23

of the white Lotus alive If

57:25

not, whenever you're listening to this,

57:27

happy binging! Next question with Katie

57:29

Kerr is a production of I

57:31

Heart Media and Katie Kerrick Media.

57:33

The executive producers are me, Katie

57:36

Kerrick, and Courtney Litz. The supervising

57:38

producer is Lauren Hansen, associate producers,

57:40

Derek Clemens, and Adrianafazio. The show

57:42

is edited and mixed by Derek

57:44

Clemens. For more information about today's

57:46

episode or to sign up for

57:48

my morning newsletter, wake-up call, go

57:50

to katikkirk.com. You can also find

57:52

me at katikk on Instagram and

57:54

on my social media channels.

57:56

For more more podcasts from

57:58

I Heart visit visit the

58:00

I Heart Radio app, Apple

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or wherever you

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listen to your

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favorite shows. shows. Your

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stomach is a mess and you feel

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lousy. Something is just off but you

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don't know what. off, we get it.

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You've tried every Yeah, we and supplement under

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the sun and none of it worked. fat

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Here's the truth. Your gut's a mess

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and your body is letting you know.

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You're just too busy and you ignore

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the signs, making it worse. gut's a straight

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to the point. body is your gut microbiome

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to give you a personalized health plan

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that actually works. the is how your

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body processes everything that you consume. Stop

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ignoring the signs. It's time to do

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something real. Get biome and fix your

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gut now. it worse. Making to get And you any

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test. Make ignoring the to receive a link

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to the offer. the offer. The Unshakable's is kicking

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off season two an episode you won't wanna

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miss. to miss. host Ben CEO of Chase for business,

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he welcomes a very special guest. Chairman

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and CEO of of Chase, Chase.