0:08

Well hope. The NFL Daily on Greg Rosenthal

0:11

Beyond Lucky Today, to be joined by

0:13

Jordan Rodrigg of The Athletic with Me in

0:16

the studio, the Chris Westling Podcast

0:18

Studio and somewhere in the

0:20

Sonny environs of Las Vegas.

0:22

Nate Tice of Yahoo

0:26

Sports. I'm really excited about

0:28

this show. You know, we've we've

0:30

been doing it a little bit here and as you hopefully

0:32

have learned if you're a listener, we're going to have

0:34

a bunch of different flavors of this

0:36

show. Different shows, we'll have different flavors. And

0:39

this show's flavor, Nate is dork

0:42

that That's that's our flavor.

0:44

Let's let's get.

0:45

Let's get.

0:46

It's good to see about it.

0:47

You look, you look very rested, and

0:50

you look you look handsome, and I haven't seen you

0:52

since since the Super Bowl in a little

0:54

bit.

0:54

Getting the wife hasn't

0:57

killed me yet. Like that, That's what's

0:59

going on. That's why I I think I have a lot of takes

1:01

pent up, and maybe that's what I'm going with. I'm bursting

1:04

at the scenes with takes. That was that

1:06

was a very fun Is that from

1:08

like the NFL films are ive there.

1:10

We're gonna leaning hard into NFL

1:12

films.

1:13

Yeah, yeah, that's not the autumn wind.

1:15

That was like the gramble to it like

1:18

beforehand, it was a summer wind. I

1:20

can't do that either. That's not true, but it's but

1:22

no, I'm happy to be here. I I usually

1:25

get like nerd or anything, but one time I got

1:27

described as like it was. Actually it was an

1:29

old co host with Dane and I din brug Or. He

1:31

was like, oh, our draft geeks, and I felt

1:33

like I almost got insulted there. It

1:35

was like, yeah, yeah, geek, you know, you

1:38

know that's a step below nerd.

1:40

Uh.

1:40

You're none of those things.

1:41

You're you're a tall, strapping

1:43

uh former D one athlete

1:46

and you know, back

1:48

up to Russell Wilson. So that's more at least

1:50

athletically as far as I know, Jordan than

1:52

me, or you have accomplished.

1:54

As far as you know, I don't know, I don't know, you

1:56

don't know, you don't know all about that.

1:57

It's great to have you back in the studio.

2:00

To Jordan, you're here obviously

2:02

for our first show, and I wanted

2:05

to get you back for this show because

2:07

I just felt like you and Nate are the two

2:09

perfect people to talk

2:11

about, like what's coming next, what

2:14

we're interested in terms

2:16

of NFL schemes. That's

2:18

why today is the flavor of

2:20

dork. And I mean that in the best way possible,

2:22

Like I love this stuff and it's a good time of year. I think

2:25

to talk about what trends

2:27

we've seen maybe on the field, and

2:29

what we're looking forward to. And I left

2:32

it pretty open ended.

2:33

Nate.

2:33

I know you have a piece coming up on

2:36

Yahoo's Sports about this, so you are

2:38

very well prepped. You also have a podcast coming up

2:40

on Yahoo's Sports in a couple of weeks, so I'm really

2:42

looking forward to listening to that. But it

2:45

can be league wide, it can

2:47

be a specific team, it can be coach, it

2:49

can be anything.

2:50

In Jordan, I want you to get this going

2:53

well.

2:53

I'm excited to start because I'm going to steal

2:55

Nate's answer from him immediately. You

2:58

know what I'm going to say, I think, so okay.

3:00

At the same time, ready one three

3:03

pistol.

3:04

The rams, Oh your rams pistol. I

3:06

was gonna say, rams pistol. Okay, So okay,

3:08

I know you're gonna point. I knew you're

3:10

gonna bring someone's gonna bring this up. So I have a bullet

3:12

point on this. So I'm ready. I'm ready for the pistol.

3:15

Well, okay, so I'm not gonna be the person who

3:17

comes on here and talks about the Rams all the time.

3:19

I do want the listeners to know that we're

3:21

talking about a lot of different things. But this

3:23

was extremely fascinating to watch

3:26

and cover. Last year, the Rams

3:28

started deploying a significant

3:30

amount significant amounts of the pistol formation, especially

3:33

in the latter half of the season. They ended up with like about

3:35

one hundred snaps by all said and done.

3:38

They didn't just start it after the bye.

3:40

You saw a little like test of concept

3:42

earlier in the season, but they really

3:45

sort of spammed it later in the season. It

3:47

basically allowed Matthew Stafford to do what

3:49

he likes, which is be a shotgun quarterback

3:52

and a drop back quarterback, while

3:54

also having the entire run menu at

3:57

his disposal, because the under center

4:00

run menu was you

4:02

can keep that in the play sheet and in

4:04

the call sheet if you're in the

4:06

pistol, even though you're in sort of what

4:08

looks a little bit like the gun with the running

4:10

back immediately behind the quarterback. What

4:13

was really good about this was it kind of helped

4:15

them get back to some of their zone runs. Nate,

4:17

I know you wrote really well about this over Yahoo.

4:20

I love that piece that you wrote. It was super

4:22

helpful and like parsing some of this that we

4:24

were watching last year. I

4:27

think it's next because it works. I

4:29

think you're going to see a lot of teams using it because

4:31

it works. The Dolphins used it a lot, the Falcons

4:33

used it a lot. But when you see

4:35

those teams that you know, Dolphins

4:38

and Rams specifically that other teams

4:40

are studying their cutups and their their

4:42

run packages and their sequencing and all of that,

4:44

you're gonna see teams copy. And

4:47

I think this is a really good example of being

4:50

able to blend this concept,

4:52

specifically to not only keep

4:54

your entire menu open to you, to not give

4:56

tells to aggressive defenses, but

4:59

also to kind of

5:01

just keep adding things back in.

5:04

Once they shifted to.

5:05

Like the duo team for the first time in the last

5:08

several years, they were able to get.

5:09

Back into some of their even just explain

5:11

to the listers what pistol is in general.

5:14

Yeah, So pistol is when I mean it literally

5:16

looks like a pistol. It's

5:18

when the running back is lined up directly behind the quarterback,

5:20

and the quarterback is in this case, you know what,

5:23

four steps or so behind the center.

5:25

So instead of purely under center, where

5:28

you also see the running back lined up behind the

5:30

quarterback, the quarterback has some space between

5:32

the center and himself, and instead of

5:34

the shotgun where the running back is off to one

5:36

side of the quarterback, this sort

5:38

of blends the two together, and by

5:40

doing so, the defenders can't really tell

5:43

which direction the running back

5:45

is going to go, and it's a little bit

5:47

closer to formation, so the play can develop

5:50

quicker than if it were just a pure shotgun.

5:52

And if the back was offset, then.

5:54

The defender has a tell not only

5:56

for some of the blitz and the pickups and things like

5:58

that, but also which direction and maybe

6:00

the gaps are gonna unfold because the running

6:02

back is literally to one side, and

6:04

then you know, you can keep

6:07

running things like play action. A lot of coaches don't

6:09

like to run Nate, you can elaborate on this. A lot of coaches

6:11

don't like to run a full

6:13

play action menu out of shotgun.

6:16

It just it limits them, but pistol you have

6:19

a full menu open to yourself and

6:21

then you can also get to some zone stuff a little bit

6:23

easier that way, because again, you're not just

6:25

on one side of the quarterback as the running back.

6:27

And I love that the Rams and we've seen this with

6:30

the entire Sean McVay career

6:32

in Los Angeles, but even with Matthew

6:34

Stafford, who's such an established quarterback and

6:36

as things that he does well, like,

6:39

they change what they do a lot,

6:41

and they don't stay static.

6:43

You can't stay static, and it's pretty

6:46

cool, nay. I know Stafford's one of your favorite quarterbacks

6:49

to see him evolving and doing

6:51

stuff that you haven't seen before. It's

6:53

not like they're the first team to ever run pistol.

6:55

But the league is just different now than

6:57

it used to. I mean the pistol uh, of course,

6:59

fame created by Tyler Thinkpan in

7:02

Kansas City. Now, I'm just saying, I know that

7:04

was kind of a fun one and obviously Kaepernick

7:07

with the forty nine ers.

7:08

Yeah, people have done it like this isn't new. I don't say

7:10

it's next because it's new. It's not new,

7:12

but it's all you see it a lot in the college.

7:14

Everything, everything in the NFL has been done some

7:16

way before. But the way you're talking about marrying the running

7:18

game, Like, what what gets you going about

7:21

this?

7:21

Watching Stafford in this evolution,

7:24

Nate.

7:25

Yeah, it's yeah, it's merging two

7:27

worlds like Jordan was kind of alluding to. And

7:29

I thought the most important part is

7:31

that defenses are really smart now,

7:33

like they I mean, they've been smart before, but like I think

7:35

they're just the level of defensive plays higher

7:38

than ever. And when teams, i

7:40

mean, shoot, when Payton Manning was with the

7:42

Colts, like they were like the first team to be fifty

7:44

percent.

7:45

Shotgun and that was insane

7:47

at the time.

7:48

That was like crazy, they were fifty percent,

7:50

and now most of the teams are over easily over

7:52

fifty. Some teams are over ninety percent of the

7:54

shotgun. And okay, when we have

7:57

standard runs, Okay, if the running back is too

7:59

away from the tight end, it's all based on where the tight end

8:01

is and where the running back is. So if he's away

8:03

from the tight end, they only could run this run, this run,

8:05

this run. Okay, if we can limit it to rock paper

8:08

scissors, and they only run rock and paper. Okay,

8:10

we can really make it easier on our defenders.

8:13

So when you get to the pistol, it just opens up the

8:15

menu like Jordan was loosed to. And you

8:17

saw that with the Colin Kaepernick stuff when he

8:19

was at Nevada, and then the forty Niners kind

8:21

of copied it because they wanted to get the QB run

8:23

game involved. So now instead of just

8:25

everything being zone read, now you can

8:27

kind of get same side looks so because

8:29

the running back is downhill and where the quarterback

8:32

is reading is to a different side than would be on

8:34

zone. And then you got to the next time

8:36

we really saw a lot of pistol was Peyton Mannings

8:38

last year with the Broncos because Gary

8:41

Kuback wanted to run zone and Peyton

8:43

was too old to be under center, so they went

8:45

to so they went to the pistol, so they.

8:47

Moved them back to make it easier. That's

8:49

our real thing.

8:50

That sounds a bit familiar, Yeah,

8:52

exactly.

8:53

So it's flexible. If if like.

8:57

Colin Kaepernick kind of out of them

8:59

as an NFL play and Peyton Manning.

9:01

Kind of that's it.

9:01

You don't have to be able to move as a quarterback

9:03

for this to work is what Nate's getting at.

9:05

Here you're cheating four yards.

9:07

But I when you get and this is where I think it's what's

9:09

cool with the Rams version is I always

9:11

think of pistol. It's like, oh, it's to open up the QB run

9:14

game a little bit. That's why you can just open up some more

9:16

of the stuff. But when you watch it with Stafford,

9:18

and like Jordan was saying, the drop back

9:20

passing game, it's now creating

9:22

under centered looks out of pistol.

9:25

So it's easier on Stafford. But it doesn't have to be under

9:27

center. But now you're taking away the taels for

9:29

the defense because now if he's in what they call

9:31

a home position, which is like an

9:33

I formation position, but now it's shotgun,

9:35

you know, pistol.

9:36

Now the defense can't. I can't.

9:38

This linebacker doesn't know if I blitz or not because

9:40

I don't know if the running back's releasing to my side on

9:42

his route. We don't know if the run game is this So

9:45

it's really the first and second down looks

9:47

that this is where I thought the Rams really cranked

9:49

it.

9:49

Up the Ravens game. I'm sure Jordan

9:51

can speak to like that game.

9:52

You saw it a lot because they're trying to mess with defenses

9:54

there blitz happy and simulated pressure appy

9:57

because they're trying to those guys now

9:59

can't key in on some like Okay, the back's away from the

10:01

tight end. I'm Patrick Queen. I know I'm blitzing

10:03

now. Okay, well now he's behind

10:05

the quarterback. All right, we gotta wait till the snap

10:07

of the ball to see what side he goes. So you're just creating

10:10

half seconds and then those add up over.

10:12

Time, and just from a layman's point of view, for

10:14

me, it's like the pistol accomplishes

10:16

both things. It's like it's in between in a way

10:18

that you can really do everything, and it's

10:20

exciting and I love that you have

10:23

just like an absolute fireballer

10:25

behind center still and seeing the best of Matthew

10:27

Stafford. I just hope he

10:29

stays healthy and I just hope he is like

10:31

he was last year, because when that was all

10:33

happening and my daughter's a ramstand, I just had this

10:36

feeling. I was like, oh, I actually think

10:38

they have like a non insignificant

10:41

chance to win the Super Bowl this year,

10:43

Like things have to go right but if you played

10:45

the NFC playoffs out, I think they make the Super

10:47

Bowl like a couple times at least, and

10:50

it just didn't happen for them.

10:51

They lost a close game.

10:52

It's like, I just hope they can have Stafford

10:55

at this age that healthy and playing that

10:57

well all season again. And I'm hopeful

10:59

and we look forward to that. In

11:02

the meantime, I want you guys all to listen to these

11:04

just beautiful commercials. We will be back off to the back and we're

11:06

finally going to get to all of Nate's points. He has so many

11:08

points

11:16

back on NFL daily, and we've reached

11:19

the portion of the program where it's

11:21

just time to let Nate cook.

11:23

We just we got to hear it. We got

11:25

to hear what you got.

11:26

What's your best scheme?

11:29

Know that you want to.

11:29

Start with This was gonna be my two

11:31

strike pitch. Yeah, but I'll start

11:34

the bat the bat with it. This

11:36

is I see your two safety looks. I

11:38

see the top down defenses, and I

11:40

raise you three safety looks.

11:43

Not just I'm not talking just big Nickel.

11:45

I'm talking three safety shells.

11:48

And I know there is a large

11:51

British fan base of this show, but they would

11:53

love to know that this is very much like the three center

11:55

back looks that you're seeing in soccer, you know, they've seen

11:57

the last five ten years kind of proliferate a little bit.

12:00

But the two defenses that I

12:02

think are either going to be the best examples of this. There might

12:04

be others that maybe I'm just not focusing

12:06

on, maybe like the Raiders or something. But the Cardinals

12:09

defense with defensive coordinator Nick Ralis,

12:11

who's thirty years old, and actually

12:13

I went to high school with his two brothers, which is

12:15

the small world and his brother's

12:18

former we wrestler uh name.

12:21

So this like marries your world very well.

12:23

Basically, it's so weird.

12:24

It's so weird, like a little Nick is

12:27

a defensive coordinator in the NFL, Like great

12:29

for him, and he's doing a lot of fun stuff, so it's ky.

12:31

Yeah.

12:32

But and then also Shane bon and defense coordinat

12:34

for the Giants. So I think these two are the best examples

12:36

of what I'm going to be talking about here. But

12:39

Jordan, you guys, you already hinted

12:41

at this point, so it's perfect. We're talking about micro reactions

12:44

before the snap. So the

12:46

Shanahan offenses especially, so the teams

12:48

that do the best the Packers Rams

12:50

forty nine Ers, the Falcons last

12:52

year, which maybe the Steelers this year, the Dolphins,

12:55

these teams that have really weaponized motion, the

12:57

Cardinals offense that they're

12:59

trying to get you hot at the snap of the

13:01

ball, gets you out, leverage, gets you

13:03

out of position, you being the defense, getting

13:06

all eleven defenders off of the same page.

13:09

And how defenses kind of counteracted

13:11

that is quarters cover four two safety

13:13

looks.

13:13

We've talked a lot about it, you.

13:15

Know, talked a lot that there's been rise and

13:17

fall of another head coach already who

13:19

ran actually a couple of them that were

13:21

the leaders of this type of coverage.

13:23

But the ones that I think kind of took this and kind.

13:25

Of are you talking about here someone that worked right.

13:27

Maybe the other Los Angeles team.

13:28

Yeah, I mean, you can put

13:30

Brandon Staley's name out there, the.

13:32

Salification that came

13:34

and went.

13:35

But so what they were trying to do with the quarters looks

13:37

was is top down, keep everything in

13:39

front of us. We can adjust their two safeties

13:42

and if you want a motion, you want to shift, our safeties

13:44

will kind of be a safety, you know.

13:46

Fill in from the back, fill in from top down.

13:48

We're not going from the line of scrimmage backwards

13:50

now, we're going from the safety spots downwards.

13:54

And when we watched this Cardinals defense and the Titans

13:56

defense last year, who boned was defense Cordinaio of NOL

13:58

Giants. They were

14:00

taking guys like Buddha Baker and

14:02

he was a true what I would call monster back, which

14:04

is fine ball, the sea ball, get

14:06

ball kind of player, like a true rover, a

14:09

guy that could just move around Bob Sandy.

14:11

You know.

14:12

Yeah, what they did was they really

14:14

though.

14:15

What they did was rather than have the

14:18

slot player or the other linebacker

14:20

by the mic, you know, linebacker, and

14:22

rather than have him as a safety all the way back,

14:24

they kind of put them in between the linebacker

14:27

and the safety. This is kind of in between

14:29

spot. And what that allows them to do is

14:31

now, rather than having a guy from the line scrimmage work backwards

14:34

or now we have to bump everybody because of a motion

14:36

at the snap of the ball, Budda Baker, whoever

14:38

this roving player is, he can fill in where

14:41

they're away from the motion towards the motion. He

14:43

can move be a slot player, he could be a Tampa tuo

14:45

player like Brian Urlacker, he could be the

14:47

deep safety, he could be a blitzer. So

14:49

they created this kind of motion piece, this

14:51

move piece, and the Titans were doing this a little bit

14:53

last year. Roger McCreary was an interesting

14:56

player. He's doing a little bit of this and the safeties they

14:58

had in Tennessee last year. So it's

15:00

it's really interesting. I'm curious and more

15:02

defenses copy it. The Cardinals had one

15:04

of the worst defenses last year.

15:05

I gotta say, I want I want to kind of bring that up

15:08

that like these two defenses, you know, not that effective,

15:11

but they weren't.

15:12

The process was clear. We've covered this. I

15:15

were terrible. The process was clear.

15:17

Yeah, I see what they're trying to

15:19

do.

15:19

And I think more defenses are going to copy that

15:21

because we have seen more weaponized

15:24

slot players. Brian Branch, Devn Weatherspoon,

15:27

Kyle Hamilton. You know, you saw a little bit this

15:29

with the Ravens last year. But I think this kind

15:31

of like true move that guy into the

15:33

middle of the field and into that in between

15:35

area that I think is going to get copied

15:38

a little bit more might might be the whole major

15:40

of the defense outside of these two or maybe

15:42

a couple of others. But I think more teams are going to go,

15:44

hey, this gets our best guys out there.

15:46

And I think it's a great answer to all that motion

15:48

stuff, all the other things, and it doesn't make

15:50

you predictable. And this is the

15:53

last thing. I watching the Cardinals defense

15:55

against the forty nine ers. It was

15:57

in Arizona. That was kind of a game that was

15:59

kind of like, Okay, I see what you're doing here. It

16:01

takes It changes the pre snap and post snapbook

16:04

for the quarterback. He can't just go Okay,

16:06

it's cover two. Oh, it's single high. Oh, it's

16:08

man coverage. Now he has to go all

16:10

right, where's Buddha Baker going? Wait, where's the

16:12

other safety going?

16:13

Again?

16:14

We just talked about micro reactions. Those

16:16

little quarter a half seconds add up.

16:18

It helps the defensive pass rush get there and maybe

16:21

make the quarterback gouts at a wrong spot, or maybe it hold

16:23

on to the ball for a half second. So I

16:25

just see this kind of freedom of the defense

16:27

and these funky move looks. This

16:29

is the motion for the defense. The motion is

16:31

shifting of offense. This is their version on defense,

16:34

and I think everyone you can see more and more of it.

16:36

Yeah, I call that because

16:38

it's kind of it's evolving, right because

16:41

you've seen a lot of teams put their hybrid

16:43

safety or their hybrid corner in

16:46

a bigger nickel. You see, the Star

16:48

was really popular. I mean it's again,

16:50

the Star has been around forever. I'm not saying it's

16:52

new, but it was repopularized

16:55

a couple of years ago. But I kind of call this

16:57

the shooting Star because they can float

17:00

like they can float across like they can

17:02

they're not confined necessarily to

17:04

the rest.

17:05

Of the who are good examples

17:07

of that.

17:08

I mean, we're going to see We're probably going to see it, you know,

17:10

like we're yeah, I mean, we're probably going to see

17:12

more.

17:12

I would think, like.

17:13

Yeah, we'll see, we'll see more of these guys, like

17:16

I mean, the slot because it's just happening what's in

17:18

college and we just get these guys propping

17:20

up into the NFL.

17:21

So I mean, shoot, just last year the rookie and second

17:23

year players.

17:24

Last year, there was just all these slot guys

17:26

and like so they're all dynamic blitzers, they're

17:29

all good in coverage. They're all good tacklers. So

17:31

it's become like not it's called

17:33

the star and certain defenses, but the sloth and nickel

17:35

whatever. But it's literally becoming a star

17:38

position, like where you put your most dynamic player

17:40

because they can they could just do so much.

17:42

We love a double meeting. We love a double rather.

17:45

Than so what they said was,

17:47

rather than have our star just only

17:49

be in the slot and kind of be predictable that

17:51

he only could do three things, all

17:54

right, let's move them like a helicopter. Let's move them

17:56

to the middle so where he can rove any any spot

17:58

that we need him. Our reagon's gonna call them a sweeper

18:01

like in soccer.

18:01

I like it.

18:03

It doesn't work perfect, but it works close

18:05

enough for kind of what they're doing.

18:06

And we've seen more three safety looks

18:08

just in general, certainly that the Cowboys

18:11

with Dan Quinn and the Patriots

18:13

last year, and it just makes sense. And this

18:15

is a show about big league

18:17

wide trends and adjusting and how the

18:19

game is always evolving.

18:22

And part of the

18:24

issues with with modern defense is just

18:27

these linebackers get getting attacked and in

18:29

coverage, and so one solution is just

18:31

have another safety be that linebacker essentially.

18:34

I mean, like I don't understand it as

18:36

well as you guys do,

18:38

but that's essentially it's a lighter, faster

18:42

league, but you still need to have the physicality

18:44

to hold up in the running game, and

18:46

this is one possibility

18:49

for that. I want to ask you about, like, do

18:51

you think the and I

18:53

know you were well really quick thinking about this.

18:55

Yeah, help mine.

18:56

I'm sorry, Nate, you got me thinking about

18:58

Like I remember when the

19:01

idea for non

19:04

coverage confined nickel

19:07

players is to make them

19:09

an unavoidable player, so the quarterback

19:11

sees them and automatically looks elsewhere,

19:14

which, to Nate's point, forces

19:16

a little bit of hesitation. So I think

19:18

that is also one part of it

19:20

that you've seen in defense is already in the way

19:22

that they move and manipulate you know, whoever.

19:24

The slot player is.

19:25

But with this, it's really interesting

19:27

because they literally can like

19:32

orbit the front seven essentially,

19:34

and these teams that really capitalize

19:37

on the middle of the field, while they can

19:39

also like sort of float shooting

19:42

star like they can float sort of pre snap.

19:44

When I was mentioning the walk around defense, I

19:46

mean you mentioned the Cardinals. When you know, the walk

19:48

around, it kind of just like, oh, we're shuffling around, and all of a

19:50

sudden they're in their snap look versus necessarily

19:53

rotating post snap. They kind of were moving

19:57

and sort of like, oh, is there a game

19:59

here today? And then all of a sudden, boom, they're

20:01

in this look. And then the quarterback's like, oh, the

20:03

player in the void where I was looking

20:05

is in.

20:06

That void, So I got to look elsewhere.

20:07

And it's all about the quarterback always says, make the defense

20:10

hesitate just a little bit longer.

20:11

Well, this is Tonate's point.

20:13

Making the offense, allegedly and

20:15

in their hopes, hesitate just a little

20:17

bit longer. Look deeper in the progression,

20:20

look somewhere else, look for the layup,

20:22

look for something that is not targeting

20:25

that player. As long as that proof of concept

20:27

is there, they can make the play on the ball there, you know, And

20:29

like to that point, I do think we're going to

20:32

see more of that. I think we're going to see more of that because

20:34

everything in this league is built around stopping the

20:36

pass and now adjusting to the

20:39

pre snap eye candy and the pre snap

20:41

movement in ways that aren't just

20:44

you know, playing landmarks as a defense

20:47

because you can't necessarily always

20:49

play the motion itself, but you can still understand

20:51

the tendencies of the offense

20:54

of where that ball is going to end up on the field.

20:57

But teams are even messing with that now too,

20:59

so you have to you have to have these players.

21:01

I feel like if you want good pr

21:03

as a defensive coordinator, you just do like the

21:05

walk around defense, you know, because you.

21:07

Always get you always get popped for that.

21:09

That's like every couple of years, someone

21:11

gets super into it for four games just because they're

21:13

desperate and Belichick actually everyone's

21:15

taking their little turn with it. But if you do the walk around

21:17

defense where everything looks crazy before the snap,

21:19

you get a lot of pop I want to ask you, guys, how you

21:21

think the then they get

21:24

on that's you

21:27

know, the Patriots are gonna because they had big players, they wouldn't

21:29

do it too much. It just it just sprinkle it in

21:31

every once in a while to mess with.

21:32

You, but you

21:35

don't use it all the top.

21:36

Yeah, how do you think?

21:38

Uh?

21:38

I guess?

21:39

And this could you know, lead to just

21:41

another thing to talk about because we know it's a trend

21:43

because all you have to do is look at the coaching staffs around

21:46

the league. How do you think the Mike McDonald

21:48

defensive tree plays

21:51

into this but also just is going to play into

21:53

this season, because I think for most

21:55

fans out there, it's flown a little under

21:57

the radar that Mike McDonald, who did

22:00

about it as good a job as any defensive coordinator

22:02

over the last two years in the NFL, coming from Michigan

22:05

and going to the Ravens. Everyone knows he got

22:07

hired in Seattle, but then okay,

22:09

so there's one style of his defense

22:11

there, and then in Baltimore

22:14

he gets replaced by Zachary Orr and

22:16

so there's one there. And then

22:19

we go to the Titans and we got a Ravens

22:21

assistant Dinard Wilson there, and then

22:23

we go to the Dolphins

22:25

and they hired Anthony Weaver another

22:28

one of those. So literally four

22:30

coordinators from the exact same staff,

22:33

who you know was very effective, and we're

22:35

doing things a little bit differently than a lot of the

22:37

league are suddenly running

22:39

teams. So that's you know, an eighth of the league

22:42

is now this Mike McDonald defense. How

22:44

do you think that's going to affect

22:46

things like what are they going to look like? And related

22:49

to everything we're talking about too with all the safeties.

22:51

Yeah, and I think i'd love to hear Nate's breakdown

22:54

of why this defense has popularized

22:56

so suddenly and so as these things do, if

22:58

it works against high powered offenses,

23:01

if it stops high powered offenses, you're

23:03

gonna hire.

23:04

I basically having because Mike McDonald like beat

23:07

the Shannonhan Tree a couple times

23:09

in prime time, so like owners and stuff, but.

23:11

Also all right, let's do that.

23:12

His defense looks smart and it looks sick.

23:15

Right, No it doesn't. I'm not saying he didn't deserve it.

23:17

I just mean, like in big spots

23:19

when people were watching, he slowed

23:21

down the most unstoppable offenses in football,

23:24

and so own exactly. It's got that complicated.

23:26

Owners and coaches are just like, let's

23:28

get that, but four seems.

23:30

Like a lot.

23:31

I think what's what's super interesting is you've

23:33

you've seen some of these coaches and Mike McDaniel

23:36

being one of these coaches literally walk

23:38

out of the Fangio system

23:41

era it's still ongoing whatever, but like walk

23:44

out of that and into right

23:46

very quickly.

23:47

He was a little late on the trend, and now we'll see

23:49

if he's early one.

23:50

Yeah, it's interesting.

23:52

Yeah, and then and the Chargers of Jesse

23:54

Mintera. So do the

23:56

Ravens Ravens Michigan double

23:59

resume builder, the harbor harboralization

24:01

of your resume. No, I think with

24:03

this and it's hard to just go like, it's

24:05

not like this defense is the Tampa

24:08

two or the Seahawks Cover three

24:10

or the dick Lebau you

24:13

know zone blitzing scheme, you know, blitzberg

24:15

stuff. It's everything that

24:17

that is the gift of this defense.

24:20

And I think, what Mike McDonald, mcdianel

24:22

McDonald, this is gonna be it.

24:25

God, too many Mikes, too many Irishmen

24:28

and Scotch.

24:29

But no, it's I think with that kind of that

24:32

defense, it's a kaleidoscope scheme. That's kind

24:34

of what I always get to why it's so hard on modern

24:36

offense. This is just what I was getting to with the three safety

24:38

stuff, is that you're trying

24:40

to just cause those hesitations.

24:42

So you're just is this Cover two? Is this man?

24:44

Is this Cover three? Is this a blitz? Is this is simulated?

24:47

So all the things, everything looks the same.

24:50

You know in baseball they call pitch tunneling. You

24:52

know, it's the same thing. To the quarterback, it's like that

24:54

is the same safety.

24:55

Look.

24:56

I've seen all five snaps and

24:58

then, but it's been five different coverages. All that

25:01

is you wish everybody could

25:03

do that. What that takes is a lot of good coaching

25:05

and a lot of detail orientation. So

25:08

I want to say that this defense can work when

25:10

you have the guy that can write it, when you have

25:12

the author and you have the guy that's coaching it like

25:14

the Seahawks do. When that kind of thinking

25:17

spreads, that's where I get a little worried.

25:20

Where it's kind of going, All right, do you guys all

25:22

have you know Roquan Smith. Do

25:24

you guys all have Kyle Hamilton? Do you

25:26

all have Justin Mattabike? Do you have Jadavian Clowney

25:28

on his best year? Do you have Marlin Humphrey tackling?

25:31

All right, Well, you have different personnel. How are you going to

25:33

use it? Because this defense is supposed to be adaptable

25:36

to its personnel. If you're going to point

25:38

at one thing that maybe they major in, it's

25:40

the simulated pressures, which you know, just is the

25:42

they only blitzed for or rush for, but

25:45

it's the non traditional four you know, makes it look like a blitz.

25:47

That's maybe what their fastball is. But I

25:49

think what this defense is and what they

25:52

kind of what the scheme, the

25:54

theory, the whatever you want philosophy

25:56

of this defense is is that they run everything

25:59

well. They are sure with five six

26:01

pitches that they can throw on any ADDI pitch count.

26:03

That's what they are. But again, when

26:05

the brain drain happens a little bit, that gets.

26:07

Me a little worried.

26:08

When people are like, I'm going to copy that defense, it's like,

26:10

are you okay, We'll see

26:12

how you do with that personnel and without the mastermind

26:14

maybe behind it. So guys like Jesse

26:16

Minter I have a little trust in because what I saw,

26:19

he did, what he did in college at Michigan.

26:21

He has some proof of concept. Other guys

26:23

that haven't called play we'll see, we'll see.

26:25

But also they might have their own thing.

26:26

And that's the thing is it's very hard to predict

26:29

who has their own ideas that have

26:32

contributed to what happened before. But they're different

26:34

people, they're different coaches. It's

26:36

like you know, Flores's Belichick's

26:39

had successful people leave and unsuccessful people believe.

26:41

And Floris is his own, Like you

26:43

can see the Belichick influence on Flores, but

26:46

he is very much his own guy. And

26:48

I tend to think Zachary or is the best

26:51

bet because he's the one the Ravens chose,

26:53

and the Ravens are smart, so they

26:56

could have chosen smart team Bernard Wilson

26:58

or Anthony Weaver. They had a

27:01

year's long job interviews for

27:03

all of them, right, and so I just tend

27:05

to trust that they made a good

27:07

choice of those three. But the other two might

27:09

also be great everyone, and they might be

27:11

great at different things. Anthony Weaver was a guy I know,

27:13

a team seriously considered for head coaching jobs

27:15

and as a leader.

27:17

Yeah, I think, well I've heard about war is great then

27:19

yeah, so I will say that.

27:21

So yeah, I mean, I think all of these guys,

27:23

as you said, as you guys both said, have the potential

27:25

to be outstanding. The

27:27

main thing that we see over and over again when

27:29

systems are borrowed offense defense, now

27:31

special teams, because now we'll have you

27:34

know, little schematic twists on the

27:36

different special teams things, but the

27:38

teachability of it, how

27:41

you can communicate and

27:44

build progression and evolution

27:46

in that defense while simultaneously game planning

27:49

while you're in the heat of a season. It's

27:52

a teaching progression, progression that

27:55

is usually very specific to the teacher.

27:58

You know, we heard reporting

28:01

last year of some of the things

28:03

with Brandon Staley was the teachability

28:06

in terms of the progression of concepts wasn't

28:09

necessarily there the way that it was in

28:11

that one year in Los Angeles.

28:14

And so that's always the kind of

28:16

red flag that you look for, is like it's not just

28:20

does it work, Yes, it works generally

28:23

speaking, this this works, that worked.

28:26

How can you apply it to a

28:29

wide variety of people in

28:31

a way that builds a natural progression

28:33

over time to where you're you're

28:35

trimming fat Chris Vassar, who is

28:37

a good defense great defensive analyst, and

28:40

I read and listened.

28:41

To a lot of his stuff. He had a really great quote

28:43

about.

28:43

Mike McDonald, who he knows, he knows really well and has

28:45

worked with, and he said, this defense's

28:48

best pieces aren't the front structure or the coverages,

28:50

but the structure that encapsulates it.

28:52

It's not the calls.

28:53

It's the ability to have a lot of tools with less

28:56

teaching, so you're never surprised you're

28:58

stuck. So it's like a no waste defense

29:00

or defensive philosophy

29:03

of teaching specifically less so talking

29:05

about scheme specific stuff, but

29:07

it is it is no waste in the sense that

29:10

the things that click with your players, you keep

29:12

those things, and you remove the things that don't,

29:15

and you evolve and adjust your own

29:17

structure underneath your general

29:19

philosophy to be malleable

29:21

to what your players can do and are

29:23

actually and you're not yourself

29:26

sticking to what works just because you

29:28

think it works and because it has worked before. So

29:30

I think that's where Mike McDonald

29:34

has the potentially be special. But people who have worked under

29:36

him for a while, I think for

29:38

multiple years that's going to be the key thing is

29:41

watching how he's done that, watching

29:43

how he's organized and bucketed information

29:46

and disseminated that information in pieces

29:48

that build progression. To me,

29:50

that makes or breaks a scheme like this, And

29:53

that's the same for offense. But with something

29:55

like this, where we think it might be new, it

29:57

could I mean knew it's bought, you know, everything again,

29:59

Everything cycles around, But when

30:01

we think it could be the next wave,

30:04

it's actually just going to be how

30:06

it's taught less.

30:07

So what it is.

30:08

Yeah, teaching could be like the new money bough

30:10

you know.

30:12

Seriously, it just seems like that's honestly a

30:15

huge area for NFL teams to

30:17

take advantage of that they don't that

30:19

they just don't. They say they don't have time to

30:21

do it, but to figure out how to quickly

30:23

and concisely teach NFL players

30:26

things they need to learn, starting with like fundamentals

30:29

and just very specifically what

30:31

they need to do. And I think that's probably lacking,

30:33

and you're right, it's very easy to imagine. That's

30:36

harder when you're a head coach rather than a defensive coordinator.

30:38

I think that might have tripped up Brandon Stalely or maybe he

30:40

just wasn't always connecting

30:42

on that teaching level or having the right players

30:45

that he needed to be able

30:47

to teach. But that's on them. Breaking

30:49

football is complicated. That's what this show

30:51

has been all about. It really is, and I love

30:53

it. Like it's the middle of July and to me, this is the

30:55

perfect time to get into this stuff

30:58

and hopefully make you guys smarter. We're going to take one

31:00

quick break and we're going to do a speed round and

31:03

have a.

31:03

Little after dinner man.

31:10

Back on NFL Daily and we're

31:12

gonna try these are

31:14

complicated things, they're big concepts. Well,

31:16

we're gonna try to hit a few quickly and then

31:19

we'll wrap things up. It's

31:21

been great to spend this Monday

31:24

morning with you. I mean, let's be real, it's

31:26

not Monday morning. It went out in the feed

31:29

like overnight. We obviously taped it before.

31:31

Let's talk about twelve first and now, just because this

31:34

is obviously not like a new thing, but it

31:36

did pop up a little more in fun places

31:39

last year. You know, it is the second most common

31:41

you know, personnel usage. It was

31:44

relatively at a high, not that it had a huge

31:46

spike last year, but it was one of the highest years

31:49

of the last ten years. But the team

31:51

that used it the most was the Packers and it was just very effective

31:53

with Luke Musgrave and Tuck our Craft

31:56

and it was just like awesome. And I

31:58

think they're going to expand on that. And you

32:00

know, we've seen it. We've seen too as

32:03

the NFL evolves and we've seen

32:05

different times when it's more popular than others.

32:07

Obviously, you know the Gronk, Aaron Hernandez

32:09

when they really came out like that offense

32:12

was had a lot of new elements, but really

32:15

the way they use those two tight ends was a specific

32:18

part of it. And I think about, again, we're talking about

32:20

lighter defenses, how can you take advantage

32:23

of them?

32:23

This is one way.

32:24

And I think of the Packers and Lafleur,

32:26

who had the Laflorissance last year just cooking,

32:29

and I think of the Bills.

32:32

With Kaid and Dawson Knox.

32:33

I think of the Raiders this year with

32:35

Michael Mayer and Brock

32:39

Brock of course.

32:40

And your favorite name I know already.

32:42

I know, and Mark Andrews and Isaiah likely

32:44

in Baltimore and so those are also those are all

32:47

really compelling teams.

32:50

And I'm curious just how how they're going to be

32:52

used. And I think I think they're

32:54

at least it's going to be ticking up, and especially the Packers

32:56

are going to be funny one.

32:57

Yeah, they love that, I think. And Nate

33:00

I think can speak on this too.

33:01

It's like teams don't like to sub

33:03

especially if they want to go fast, and so

33:05

I think you might be onto something with an increase

33:08

in a specific personnel usage

33:10

increasing in that way, because if it's working,

33:13

they're going to want to move the ball down the field. They don't

33:15

want to sub back and get another receiver on

33:17

the field float those guys in and

33:19

out.

33:19

They're going to want to just go right.

33:21

And I think that's another step in

33:23

this that will buy proxy increase

33:26

the percentage of snaps that you do see with

33:29

those teams, and with more teams who

33:31

are running twelve personnels, they're not going to want to

33:33

sub and you see it with like you know, I

33:35

remember Matt Lafore was talking last year about

33:38

how he always was fascinated with the way

33:41

that you know, some of his cohorts

33:43

used the larger receivers

33:46

to kind of be hybrid full back tight end

33:48

guys who are doing some of the same type

33:50

of disguises and blocking looks and basically

33:52

making everything go all these different personnels

33:55

go out of eleven personnel.

33:57

And I know Nate's classic joke that I'll always

33:59

take with me everywhere was you call it eleven

34:02

and a half personnel between eleven and twelve

34:04

and so but I think that with

34:07

some of these coaches who do like that because

34:10

you don't have to sub, you can go fast and you don't have to bring

34:12

guys on and off the field. What what

34:15

coaches like now is that you

34:18

can capitalize against smaller, lighter

34:20

defenders. You can again find find

34:22

the similar voids in the field the way that we've talked

34:24

about this entire show, and you don't

34:26

have to sub if you have multiple tight ends who

34:28

are capable of maybe you

34:30

don't have three receivers you want to keep on the field

34:32

and your and your twelve works.

34:34

Yeah, I mean, look at these teams, Ravens, Raiders

34:37

like those second tight ends. I mean it's

34:39

why I think, Nate not to cut you off, but

34:41

I know you're getting I know, we care to uh

34:44

like uh, I know, I know, I

34:46

think you were. You know when they drafted Bowers

34:49

like you thought it makes sense because those two tight ends

34:51

work together and they don't have a third receiver.

34:53

Now now they I want them on the Rams. That's

34:55

where rams, I

34:58

know. And I was I couldn't believe. I almost

35:00

manifested that. I was like, yeah, I was

35:02

giddy about that for a minute.

35:04

Well are the Rams gonna run more twelve because they signed

35:06

Kobe Parkinson, so.

35:07

I've believe they're

35:09

gonna run more twelve.

35:10

I think so too.

35:11

Tyler off a serious injury that might

35:13

take a while.

35:14

Nobody sleeps David fantasy for people,

35:16

don't sleep on David Allen.

35:18

Yeah, he had a good moments last year

35:20

and again against the Ravens.

35:22

Let's wrap up this show, uh

35:25

with you, Jordan, and you're going to give us

35:27

our after dinner mint today.

35:28

Yeah.

35:28

So I like the concept of the after dinner

35:30

mint that you introduced on the in the debut of

35:33

the show. And I was a little nervous when you asked me

35:35

to do it because mine are I

35:38

gravitate toward earnestness and bittersweetness,

35:41

Right, those are the Those are the spaces I like to

35:43

be in. And I

35:45

think about training camps opening like you

35:47

think about what

35:50

the bubble of camp really means. It

35:52

is a space where the players

35:55

and the coaches are all It's

35:58

all very raw and real, and you're there's

36:00

no hiding from anybody. You are who you are

36:02

in that space for two three weeks. You

36:05

learn a lot about each other and you work really hard

36:07

and there's a lot of pain, and I remember, I

36:09

think about some of the things that we pass to

36:11

each other and some of the experiences that we passed to each

36:13

other as humans. And I remember a young man named Austin

36:15

O'Connor who would

36:18

went out to Carolina Panther's

36:20

training camp in Spartanburg every single year with

36:23

his dad, and sadly his

36:25

dad passed away so several

36:27

years ago, and he decided

36:29

that he was going to take his father's

36:31

ashes and spread them all over

36:33

the world where they'd taken trips. And one

36:36

of those places was he traveled

36:38

to Spartanburg and he made the same drive that they

36:40

did, and he went out to the field very very early

36:43

in the morning.

36:43

And I want to paint the.

36:44

Picture of Spartanburg there, because it is unlike

36:48

any other place to have a football

36:50

practice.

36:50

There's like this.

36:51

Humidity that rises from the ground down

36:54

there, and it's so it's this mist that

36:56

swirls all around you. And so he walked to

36:58

the edge of the field and to the end zone and

37:00

he, you know, placed some

37:02

of his father's ashes there, and

37:04

I remember thinking, like that's

37:06

happening. And then all of this, like

37:09

players were having babies in camp their

37:11

wives are having babies. You

37:13

know, another player's brother passed

37:16

away during camp. I mean, there was so much

37:18

of existence in life happening in that

37:20

very confined space, and all of

37:22

those things are part of the human

37:24

experience and what we passed to each other. And

37:27

this is not the mint that you expected.

37:29

I know, No, I love it, but that's what I every

37:32

year when training camp's open, I think of Austin O'Connor.

37:34

I think of his father, and I think of walking

37:37

through the mists that morning and

37:39

him having that quiet moment and passing

37:41

that into the field, the very field

37:44

on which these players were about to

37:46

have these very real, very

37:48

honest, very vulnerable, raw hard

37:50

experiences with each other and build a team

37:53

and camaraderie that they would then pass

37:55

to each other through the rest of that season and beyond.

37:57

And no, I think it's beautiful, and I think you

38:00

know, as people that we've been working in

38:03

football for a while, it's

38:05

like it's it's the start

38:07

of the year, it's rebirth, it's it's

38:10

everything. And yeah, rookies

38:12

are reporting this week at

38:14

a few places. The Texans will be the

38:16

first team to report

38:19

fully later in the week because they're in the Hall

38:21

of Fame game, like it is happening, and it's not

38:23

just like the feeling of like, okay, school starting,

38:26

like we're back. I know, Nate, you feel

38:28

that like that the NFL calendar is

38:30

just sort of your body clock at this point and it's

38:33

a certain sort of fun, innocent

38:35

excitement. But I love that you pointed

38:37

out the family aspect to it, because like the NFL

38:40

is expensive and training camps

38:42

affordable, and it's easy to go to

38:44

and for anyone that hasn't gone a

38:46

training camp, and if you have kids or if you don't,

38:48

like it's a great experience because

38:50

you just see these players up close

38:53

in a way that you would have to pay. You

38:56

couldn't see them up close, like no matter

38:58

how much you paid, if it was during the regular

39:00

season. And the players are cool, they're they're

39:02

in a better mood. You

39:04

can kind of scout and see which days

39:07

you know that they're maybe doing a

39:09

little extra versus days where

39:12

uh, they're not going through that much. You can find

39:14

that out if you kind of like look look at the beat writers

39:16

and what the schedule is. But you

39:19

know, my son, like he he can't wait,

39:21

like he's begging to go because I think he has

39:23

more as much or more fun going

39:26

to watch a training camp practice than he

39:28

does going to a regular season game. There there

39:30

is just kind of a beauty, uh

39:32

and an innocent about it.

39:34

It was my first job. I was doing well

39:36

training camp, ball boy. It was my

39:39

first job now originally

39:42

yeah, training, yeah. I I always

39:44

like the equipment guys, man, Like my first

39:46

boss was Dennis Ryan, longtime equipment

39:48

guy for missing the vikings. But uh, it

39:50

was so for me growing up. Camp

39:53

was At first it was work, and I

39:55

was kind of like, I'm missing all of August,

39:58

could be hanging out my friend and Simon

40:01

man Cato, Minnesota, staying

40:03

at a college dorm with no air conditioning. And

40:05

then as I got older, like really, once

40:07

I kind of realized, you know the path

40:10

that I was going down.

40:10

Yeah, that's never happening for you. At some point you just give

40:12

it up and you're just like, I'm not going to be that friend here.

40:16

Well yeah right and then yeah, and then camp

40:18

started, and then I started looking

40:20

forward to camp once I hit high school, Like once I like

40:22

ninth grade or so, I hit I was like, oh this

40:24

is cool. I'm reading the script behind these players.

40:26

So like my memories of camp, and I've

40:28

gone this as I got older, maybe away from like

40:30

the day to day of the game, but in my own now media

40:33

career and being around the draft a few times

40:35

now and seeing what the draft's like, is

40:37

that it's hope. And I think that's what's

40:39

so cool about training camp and the draft

40:42

is that you're selling hope to the fans. And I think that's awesome.

40:44

Not just the fans, I should say to the entire organization

40:47

and to teams and to coaches. Everything's a clean

40:49

slate. Oh they caught us last year,

40:51

but now we got Carl on our team. You

40:54

know, we didn't have Carl last year, but now we

40:56

do. But like you don't know who the secret

40:58

key is going to be. It could be Carl, it could

41:00

be some six round rookie, or could be the number one freaking pick,

41:03

you know.

41:03

And I think that's what's so cool.

41:05

NFL is not for long in a negative way, but

41:07

it's also the opposite of that is how much you can get

41:09

built up. And I think that's why so many

41:12

quickly too. And I think that Puka Nakua

41:14

a great example. But I think that's what's so cool

41:17

is that you can start seeing those flashes in the draft,

41:20

and then you start seeing him camp, and then

41:22

you start seeing it week one, and if you're

41:24

a kid at twelve years old with your

41:26

dad watching practice, you go, I

41:28

remember Pooka caught that touchdown and we

41:31

said he was going to be good, you know. And

41:33

I think that's why camp I think has so many special

41:35

memories for people. And I think Greg brought up the best point.

41:37

It's usually very affordable and it's a very

41:39

fan I

41:42

mean for a lot of people. I mean,

41:46

yeah, right, yeah, but the

41:49

fans and fan events around him. I'm getting to see

41:51

this from a media perspective because again, I was always

41:53

involved with the game, so I never stepped out

41:55

into the parking lot, you know, And so it's

41:57

kind of gone pretty cool for me to see that from

41:59

a different perspective as I've gotten older, and I think

42:01

it's great.

42:02

Well, it was a great way to

42:05

take a look at a big picture around

42:07

the league. A lot we're looking forward

42:09

to, and yeah, training camp is coming. I

42:12

hope to have you back on sometime

42:15

Nate, and obviously Jordan loved

42:18

having you again. That's

42:20

it for NFL Daily Today

42:23

for Nate Tice

42:26

In, Jordan Rodriege.

42:28

We will be back on

42:31

Tuesday.

42:31

Excited for this show with Colleen Wolfe

42:34

back in the Chris Westling Podcast studio and Patrick

42:36

Claybon.

42:37

We will see you then