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This is your moment. Your time

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today. Welcome

1:49

to NFL Daily, where we perceive

1:51

all the receptions. I'm Greg

1:53

Rosenthal. I'm here in the Chris

1:55

Wessling Podcast Studio with Patrick

1:57

Claibon, my friend, and coming to

2:00

us live from the East Coast.

2:02

Virginia, I believe. The man, Matt

2:05

Harmon, who created reception perception, who

2:07

has never seen a reception that he

2:09

has not perceived with utter clarity.

2:11

And that's why he's the man to

2:13

talk wide receivers and tight ends. What's

2:16

up, buddy? That was... That was the

2:18

most humbling and gratifying introduction I think

2:20

I've ever gotten on a show. You

2:23

know, it's funny. I guess if you

2:25

think about it, like the whole point

2:27

of reception perception is going beyond just

2:29

the catches and the production. So maybe

2:31

that was a bad name, you know,

2:33

because like it should be like route

2:35

perception or something. Now you've really got

2:37

me in a tailspin now about the

2:39

whole business. No, it sounds great because

2:42

it rhymes and I don't think anyone.

2:44

until I came along, really broke it

2:46

down to its root meaning, which is

2:48

that you have more of a depth

2:50

of perception than other people do. Yeah,

2:52

it's putting out front, hey, we're going

2:54

to contextualize the thing that you want

2:56

out of this process, which is a

2:58

reception, right? You run the routes and

3:00

you throw the ball in order to

3:02

have the reception. And so we are

3:04

going to perceive the receptions and the

3:06

man who birthed the idea from his

3:08

loins, which has been duplicated, I mean,

3:10

imitated, but never duplicated. Joining us on

3:13

the show to talk about past catchers.

3:15

Because again, you want the reception. That's

3:17

what you want. It's true. We have

3:19

tight ends today as well. And there

3:21

is a little part of me that

3:23

feels guilty when we just have Matt

3:25

on to talk receivers. It's like, oh,

3:27

it's draft season. Let's go break out

3:29

Harmon out of the closet to like,

3:31

let's move monkey and just talk receivers

3:33

and tight ends. That's not all you're

3:35

good for. You're a husband. You're

3:38

a great analyst of fantasy football that

3:40

used to do fantasy with Patrick here. I

3:42

believe you two guys probably attended each

3:44

other's wedding, so I'm feeling like I'm not

3:46

as close. But we did do a

3:48

podcast back in the day, Backyard Banter. I

3:50

mean, you're just more than just reception,

3:52

perception, and receivers, but that is kind of

3:54

your specialty, Harmon. Just accept it. I

3:57

mean, it would have been really weird if

3:59

you brought me on here. It's like,

4:01

all right, let's talk kickers. But we could

4:03

just talk whatever. It could just be

4:05

a normal show. You're a great analyst. Well,

4:08

I appreciate that. And yeah, I can

4:10

confirm I was at Patrick Claibon's wedding and

4:12

at mine. So yeah, boom, there we

4:14

go. We can officially put that confirmation out

4:16

there, but how is that chemistry going

4:18

to show up in this show though? Like,

4:20

will it, will people be able to

4:22

tell the difference that you guys are really

4:24

that tight? No, I

4:26

keep it professional with everybody on air.

4:28

Obviously, off air, as soon as

4:30

we click out of here, I'm going

4:32

to be very friendly with Claibon

4:34

and very antagonistic to you, Greg. But

4:36

that's just professionalism really here. But

4:39

I want to say here on the

4:41

tight end part of it, just

4:43

off the top, I don't chart tight

4:45

ends for reception perception. But that's

4:47

the best part of this is that

4:49

we'll do my very buttoned up,

4:51

like, all right, I've charted every route

4:53

of these guys for the wide

4:55

receivers. tight ends we're just going to

4:57

kind of shoot from the hip so it'll

4:59

be fun i'm looking forward to that's what

5:01

we're doing from with everyone and let's let's

5:03

just get into it let's let's talk receivers

5:05

and i don't know like your rankings harman

5:07

and i know patrick's got some hot takes

5:09

about these receivers i know if he has

5:11

a ranking perfect he's got some hot takes

5:14

and i've got some of my own as

5:16

well so i don't know if you have

5:18

a pure rankings after going through them all

5:20

but who's kind of in your top and

5:22

break it down by tears in in the

5:24

top OK, so, yeah,

5:26

I do have rankings. They are on

5:28

reception perception dot com, the stacked rankings

5:30

from multiple classes. So you can kind

5:32

of compare 2025 to 24, 23, et

5:34

cetera, et cetera. Number

5:37

one tier of his own is

5:39

Travis Hunter. To me, if we're just

5:41

viewing him as a wide receiver, I

5:43

mean. I really think it's undersold just

5:45

what an incredible pure football player he

5:47

is. Like, I think he should clearly

5:49

be the number one prospect in this

5:51

class. And it just like we

5:53

use generational all the time. And usually it's bad

5:55

analysis. Usually a player is not generational. This

5:57

guy actually is a once in a lifetime football

5:59

player. So there's that part of it just

6:02

straight up. But if we're just viewing him as

6:04

a wide receiver. He's one

6:06

of my favorite receivers I've ever evaluated

6:08

because he just checks every single box.

6:10

97th percentile success rate versus zone, 97th

6:12

percentile success rate versus press. I realize

6:14

he's obviously playing, you know, maybe some

6:16

lighter competition in the Big 12, but

6:18

he's dominating. He's obliterating that competition. He

6:20

also has rare ball skills, rare catching

6:22

ability. He's excellent in contested catch situations.

6:24

He rarely goes down on first contact.

6:26

My comparison for him, both as a

6:29

mover off the line of scrimmage, just

6:31

an overall receiver is like prime. Odell

6:33

Beckham so to me like he is

6:35

he's up there and perhaps even ahead

6:37

of some of the guys that went

6:39

in the top 10 of last year's

6:41

draft class so he's the only one

6:43

that I think is like a true

6:45

tier one you could take this guy

6:47

in the top 10 of any draft

6:49

he's a ready -made starter he could turn

6:51

into a superstar he's the only guy

6:54

like that in this class to me

6:56

I think the the thing that runs

6:58

people off because like you if you

7:00

listen like Steve Smith's thoughts on Travis

7:02

Hunter as a wide receiver, there's the

7:04

rawness. And I understand the Odell comp,

7:06

but then there's an aspect of route

7:08

running where I would like to equate

7:10

it to you have your standard golf

7:12

swing and then you have your non

7:14

-standard golf swings. But ultimately what matters

7:16

is where the ball winds up. And

7:19

if you're going for another cross -sport comp,

7:21

if you're going form basketball shooting, you

7:23

look at Klay Thompson, shoot the basketball,

7:25

and you're like, oh, that guy's a

7:27

much better shooter than this Steph Curry

7:29

character. But Steph has done it more

7:31

often and better than anybody who's ever

7:33

touched a basketball. And so I understand

7:35

if you're looking at Travis Hunter run

7:37

routes, and then you say, look at

7:39

Odell, and it's like, well, there's a

7:41

different look. There's plenty of different ways

7:44

to go about things. But

7:46

you can't dispute the fact that he is

7:48

still getting open. Well, he's also on the

7:50

field for 110 snaps and in the defensive

7:52

meeting rooms. Like the thing that struck out

7:54

to me, we're not going to spend too

7:56

much time on him just because you're a

7:58

victim of the circumstance of the NFL Daily

8:00

Week harm. And I feel like it's been

8:02

a big Travis on our week. We've definitely

8:04

talked about him and I'm with you. I

8:06

would absolutely. take him over

8:08

Harrison and neighbors as prospects, just that

8:10

receiver. To me, he is right there

8:13

with like the Jamar chases and the

8:15

best wide receiver prospects that, that we've,

8:17

that we've seen. And part of it

8:19

is just like the game slows down

8:21

for him at such an incredible level

8:23

that you can see the football intelligence.

8:26

And so if you add the intelligence

8:28

and then the ridiculously athletic, you know,

8:30

skills that, that he has just.

8:32

His ball skills and his reach and

8:34

everything is just absolutely next level. And

8:36

then you add in like 120 % of

8:38

the dog in him that he has.

8:40

Like, what more do you want? He,

8:43

to me, would be the number one

8:45

overall player just as a wide receiver

8:47

and as a cornerback. But I'm more

8:49

interested now because we haven't dove as

8:51

deeply into the rest of the

8:53

class. Let's say he's in a tier

8:55

of his own. There is a lot

8:58

of disagreement, I think, about how to

9:00

stack the next. three guys potentially, or

9:02

depending on how you feel, the next

9:04

five, six, and then on and on,

9:06

because it feels like it's a deep

9:08

class where there's a lot of guys

9:10

who are going to play important roles,

9:13

but different views on what types of

9:15

players that these guys are. So a

9:17

little bit agnostic, having broken down all

9:19

the film, where do you go after

9:21

Hunter? Yeah, I think

9:23

there's two guys that stand out from the

9:25

next chunk to me that I think

9:27

there's a gap between them and then everybody

9:29

else where I do agree with you

9:31

that everybody else is, you know, like late

9:33

round one, early round two type or

9:36

a very, very good. Day two player. The

9:38

two guys that stick out to me

9:40

are Tetra McMillan at Arizona and then Emeka

9:42

Buka at Ohio State. And the reason

9:44

I like Buka more than some of these

9:46

other players, he's just so reliable. And

9:48

I'm a sucker for like this type of

9:50

wide receiver because they tend to, you

9:52

know, like, OK, he's just a number two.

9:54

He's more like a power slot receiver.

9:56

How much upside is there with that? Nobody

9:58

complains about the upside of Amon Ross

10:00

St. Brown when he pushes to like lead

10:02

the NFL in receptions every single year.

10:04

And he is cut from the same. Cloth

10:06

is a Buka to me. Great zone

10:08

beater, but I think he's good enough against

10:11

man coverage in reception perception to play

10:13

outside. Awesome hands. Again, he's just so reliable.

10:15

So he is a guy that I

10:17

would take in like the middle of the

10:19

first round. And yeah, OK, he's my

10:21

number two receiver. Big, big whoop.

10:23

You're getting a huge value on that

10:25

from what number two receivers, quote unquote, are

10:27

paid in the NFL right now. So

10:29

he's my three. And McMillan, I have a

10:31

little bit ahead of him just because,

10:33

you know, the size profiles really. good he's

10:35

just a like good strong x receiver

10:38

prospect not perfect which is why he's not

10:40

quite in that tier one level to

10:42

me there are some flaws in his game

10:44

but you know again somebody i'd be

10:46

really comfortable picking in the first round okay

10:48

so they're those two guys are 17

10:50

and 18 on daniel jeremiah's big board behind

10:52

matthew golden by the way who will

10:54

get to i'm sure soon let's let's start

10:56

with with the buka here because he's

10:58

someone i've gone back and forth with when

11:01

i watched him and then when i

11:03

talked to people and i'm like For

11:05

instance, our friend Mina Kimes thinks

11:07

he's diet Jackson Smith and Jigba. And

11:09

other people think he's better than

11:11

a Jackson Smith and Jigba. And he's

11:13

in that category. And the more

11:15

I watch, I kind of settled on

11:18

that. He's probably a little below

11:20

that for me. And it's what you

11:22

want to value. If you're like

11:24

Harmon, and I think more than any

11:26

player in this class, he feels

11:28

like a very safe single or double.

11:30

I kind of came down on

11:32

that. Maybe he's not. quite

11:35

special enough that if I had to like rank

11:37

him versus other guys in the past

11:39

like Smith and Jigba. I actually would put

11:41

him a little bit below, but he was

11:43

a professional in college. He's going to be

11:45

a professional in the pros. He's going to

11:47

be a good player. I think the

11:49

ceiling's a little lower, but that's fine because

11:52

of what Matt Harmon said. Now, is he

11:54

going to be a number two like Devonta

11:56

Smith is a number two? I don't necessarily

11:58

think that. No, I don't think he's

12:00

that type of number two, but he's going

12:02

to play in the NFL for a long

12:04

time. And in this draft where you don't

12:06

know anything after the top four or five,

12:08

like that has a lot of that.

12:10

Yeah. If we're, if, if the, If the

12:12

goal, right, is Devontae Smith, then that's going

12:14

to be tough to find in the draft

12:17

in general, other than Travis Hunter. With Ibuka,

12:19

I would like to see the explosion

12:21

if I'm going to have him ahead of

12:23

Golden, right, or even like Higgins, who we'll

12:25

get to, where I just need to see

12:27

the elite traits. I think some of the

12:29

things that, and I'm not saying this

12:31

is building Matt up, but it's building other

12:33

people up with Ibuka, is the uniform. and

12:35

there's a little Ohio State, and there's the

12:37

idea that, oh, you're getting Scary Terry. You're

12:39

getting pre -transfer JMO. You're getting Olave. I

12:41

don't see any of those. No, I agree.

12:44

That ability to explode away. And

12:46

north of 200, I would have liked to see

12:48

just a few more broken tackles and making

12:50

more plays in space. But I understand there is

12:52

an absolute value of knowing where somebody is

12:54

going to be and when they're going to get

12:56

there, and that's what makes him a safe

12:58

pick. But if I'm trying to hit home runs

13:01

in this draft, which I think is what

13:03

you should try to do. I think doubles

13:05

are fine. Doubles in this class. If he was

13:07

a running back, he would be David Montgomery

13:09

to me. That's

13:11

pretty good. It's really good. And it's

13:13

why I have him fourth. I do

13:15

have him behind Golden and T -Mac.

13:17

T -Mac, by the way, says he wants

13:19

to be called. T -Mac. So that's

13:21

what he, as his first name, essentially.

13:24

So I will do that. And I

13:26

do wonder, with the age, right, at

13:28

22, he probably never saw Tracy McGrady

13:30

play basketball. Ever. No, you're right. That's

13:32

fair. So he can take it, I

13:34

guess. It's fine. It's been a generation.

13:36

Agbuka will be like, you know what

13:38

he's really good at, Matt? And this

13:40

is probably where he banks really well

13:42

on reception perception. He's very

13:44

good at catching the football. You know how

13:46

when the quarterback throws it to him,

13:49

it's like this kind of crazy shape and

13:51

the ball comes at different speeds and

13:53

they come in different directions. A lot of

13:55

times with Egbuka, it's over the shoulder. He's

13:58

good at putting his hands up and

14:00

then he it. Like that's, I feel like

14:02

it gets pretty important thing. I kind

14:04

of feel like it gets underrated though at

14:06

wide receiver. Like he is actually all

14:08

these guys at the top are, have good

14:10

hands. I would say none of them.

14:12

They're all plus, but to me, he's like

14:14

extra plus. So do you want to

14:16

fight back against anything that Patrick said there?

14:19

I think it really is like what you

14:21

value. And this is kind of the

14:23

hard part about like ranking, especially the wide

14:25

receiver position. It's hard for any draft.

14:27

prospect in general and just an entire class

14:29

worth when you're not looking at it

14:31

for a specific team or a specific system

14:34

because like I love Amon Ross St.

14:36

Brown the player that I compare a Buka

14:38

to but he probably wouldn't be that

14:40

guy on every single team right like and

14:42

this is the the tough part with

14:44

this archetype of receiver is that You

14:46

get them when they're in the right offense

14:48

and you can flow the entire thing through them.

14:51

But then at the same time, like you

14:53

look at these guys who are primary power slot

14:55

players and, you know, sometimes because of the

14:57

size or build or whatever, they might get played

14:59

more outside in a certain system and it's

15:01

not quite the same statistical results. So I just

15:03

love a guy that I think is. B

15:06

plus, B plus, B plus, maybe A minus

15:08

as a zone beater across the board. And

15:10

I think I can drop him into pretty

15:12

much any offense and he's going to give

15:14

me a nice floor of a player. But

15:16

I do think there are certain systems and

15:18

certain offenses around the league where he'd actually

15:20

be one of the most productive wideouts in

15:22

the league. Just on the JSN comparison, just

15:24

because I want to come back to that.

15:27

I like JSN a touch more as a

15:29

prospect. I basically put it that I think

15:31

JSN was a flashier player because he was

15:33

a better man coverage beater than Ibuka is.

15:35

But I think Ibuka is a... a superior

15:37

dirty work guy and more of a rugged

15:39

receiver. Yeah, and they gave him the ball

15:41

so much because Egbuka, that is, in the

15:43

backfield. He played... running back,

15:45

fullback. Like he has a lot of

15:47

like, and he'd always get what's blocked. And

15:49

that's why I thought about Montgomery. Like

15:51

he's a seven to eight yard type of

15:53

guy. I don't know if he has

15:55

the downfield pop of, of St. Brown or

15:57

JSN in the end. I didn't evaluate

16:00

St. Brown, like coming out of college. So

16:02

it's hard to compare him to them.

16:04

But in terms of a pro, I think

16:06

that the floor is, you know, maybe

16:08

higher than these other guys, but, but McMillan,

16:10

I kind of came into it and

16:12

I hate having some, you know, thoughts

16:14

ahead of time of what you hear and

16:16

maybe it's a little bit of a prejudice

16:18

and I expected to not like him as

16:21

much as I did for whatever reason and

16:23

I loved him and I think if it

16:25

wasn't for all the plays that he doesn't

16:27

have he's the number one guy I think

16:29

in maybe the last couple of classes where

16:31

if you only watched his targets he

16:34

would be ranked higher than if you

16:36

didn't watch the rest of his snaps. And

16:38

that's why I get why DJ's got

16:40

him number 18 overall. That's why I get

16:42

that he's not the, just the home

16:44

run number two behind Hunter, because I think

16:46

if it was just his targets, he's

16:48

probably the home run number two. I really

16:50

like golden too. And we'll, we'll get

16:52

to him. But I thought like the other,

16:55

the other snaps like weren't at, weren't

16:57

as good. Like he's a better guy. I

16:59

didn't actually tell me, cause I'm just

17:01

flying off the hip. Did you, grade

17:03

him better versus zone than man was

17:05

there a big difference there yeah like

17:07

it's actually pretty close percentile wise he's

17:09

a 59th percentile man coverage beater he's

17:11

a 60th percentile zone beater um so

17:13

it is like very neck and neck

17:15

uh but he's actually the in terms

17:17

of success rate versus man press and

17:20

zone relatively he's best against press coverage

17:22

which i actually kind of did like

17:24

I'd almost completely disagree with what you

17:26

said about him being like, I like

17:28

more watching him when he doesn't get

17:30

the ball, because I think when he

17:32

gets the ball, if you're just watching

17:34

his targets, you kind of bucket him

17:36

into this like big ball winning lack

17:38

of separation receiver because he's in so

17:40

many contested situations. But I think the

17:42

best parts of his game and the

17:44

reasons that I think he's. To

17:47

me, the number two, if we're putting out

17:49

Travis Hunter, he's the number one receiver in

17:51

this class. It's because he's so good on

17:53

these in -breaking routes, particularly posts and digs

17:55

and stuff like that. I kind of settled

17:57

on a Cortland Sutton comparison for him. Somebody

17:59

that is probably an ideal high -end two, but

18:01

you can get away with him being your

18:04

number one receiver. That's generally what I see

18:06

when I look at TMAC. It's a good

18:08

prospect profile overall. Not quite a tier one

18:10

player to me, but there's a lot. lot

18:12

of things to like about him he sneaks

18:14

up on you after the catch so really

18:16

it is like the plays where he the

18:18

ball doesn't go his way and you see

18:20

him as but he doesn't try that hard

18:22

that's my number one thing I think the

18:24

effort was bad hear you on that well

18:26

I think that's huge and that kind of

18:28

goes along and you never know at this

18:30

time of year what's true or

18:33

what's not with that kind of criticism. But

18:35

it reminded me a lot of A .D.

18:37

Mitchell from a year ago, who to

18:39

me had big red flags on his tape

18:41

that he just didn't try that hard

18:43

on a lot of plays. And that felt

18:45

like, well, McMillan. McMillan seemed so upset

18:47

all the time that he wasn't getting the

18:49

ball enough. He certainly wasn't interested in

18:51

run blocking or when he wasn't the primary

18:53

guy. And I'm thinking, this is the

18:55

most productive receiver in the last few years,

18:57

just about. He came in averaging 18

18:59

yards per catch. He had 1 ,300 yards

19:01

both. he's awesome. I really think it's going

19:03

to work out for the most part,

19:05

but I would want to get to the

19:07

bottom of that, that, that to me,

19:09

there were just a lot of, there were

19:11

a lot of routes where it's just

19:13

like, man, I'm not, I like

19:15

where he, there was a couple where he

19:17

just literally stood there. Well, I was like,

19:19

come on. Yeah. He probably should be better

19:21

than he is, but, but he's still, no,

19:23

no. Like when he was the primary guy,

19:25

I think like when he got the ball,

19:27

he was freaking incredible. I think to contextualize

19:29

some of those things, right. Okay,

19:31

so October 5th, loss. October 12th, loss.

19:34

October 19th, loss. October 26th, loss. November

19:36

2nd, loss. Some of these are by

19:38

like 27 points. Yeah, they're getting run

19:40

out of the stadium routinely. He's the

19:42

leading receiver. There's a guy we'll talk

19:44

about who had an even bigger number,

19:46

but he had like 44 % of

19:48

their passing yards were yards that were

19:50

thrown to T -Mac. And so like, and

19:52

I understand, but the... amount of volume

19:54

placed on him in the passing game,

19:56

especially at a big height and weight,

19:58

I could see where that could cause

20:01

you Do you think he's just tired,

20:03

maybe? Yeah, kind of frazzle in many

20:05

situations where if you're not the one

20:07

on a route, like... Why am I

20:09

selling out at 6 '4"? Well, because

20:11

you might get to number two on

20:13

the route. And I think, right, if

20:15

you go back and watch the Colorado

20:17

game, a lot of folks are like,

20:19

hey, the Colorado game showed that if

20:21

he plays some talent in the defensive

20:23

backfield, you're not going to get the

20:25

production. I saw him turn a defender

20:28

around and get six yards of separation

20:30

and a ball hit the water cooler

20:32

after it hit his hands. And then

20:34

I saw another deep pass that would

20:36

have been a spot foul on pass

20:38

interference that... in college football just got

20:40

15 yards and so you're taking away

20:42

the impact there where I just saw

20:44

this dude have nothing more than impact

20:46

yes in games that's why I would

20:48

bet on him in the end like

20:50

I just find him fascinating I think

20:52

he'd go in so many direct I've

20:54

heard Michael Pittman as a comparison and

20:57

then that's where like if he doesn't

20:59

have kind of the next level explosion

21:02

or something you got to be a try

21:04

hard player you're gonna need to block with

21:06

the type of inside player that he's gonna

21:08

be like and so that's you want him

21:10

to to be that guy but just for

21:12

a little background for people who aren't familiar

21:14

from Arizona like like I said 1300 plus

21:16

yards 1400 plus yards he came into this

21:18

season almost knowing he was gonna be a

21:20

high pick and that That's a tricky spot

21:22

to be in. You do wonder between him

21:24

and Will Johnson, two guys who

21:26

are kind of expected to be top five picks coming

21:28

into it. Their teams are much

21:30

better. Maybe that does explain a little bit

21:33

of whether it's effort or just... In

21:35

the end, he got it done. I actually

21:37

think he's a much better guy after

21:39

the catch than Cortland Sutton, for instance. He's

21:41

a good yak guy. He can dunk

21:43

on guys. He can do it all. I

21:45

think he has a great natural feel. That's

21:48

where I... I don't know that I have so

21:50

many comps just flying around, but like George Pickens,

21:52

like he's got a, he's got not as a

21:54

player, but just as a feel for the position.

21:56

I think he's got that he he's football smart

21:58

is, is I guess how I would put it.

22:01

Yeah. I like to do comps

22:03

in like kind of archetypes and

22:05

families of receivers. And I think

22:07

he belongs to the family of

22:09

receiver. That's like Michael Thomas, Drake,

22:11

London gap. you know,

22:13

Michael Pittman, Cortland Sutton, like these bigger

22:15

guys who are better separators than you

22:18

think. But I think he falls

22:20

closer to like the Sutton Pittman zone. But there's

22:22

no question that like if he fully dials in,

22:24

I think he could get a little bit closer

22:26

to Drake London. But I have a very high

22:28

opinion of Drake London. That's just where he was

22:30

making a lot of plays like down the field.

22:32

And like I said, was not like he would

22:34

go down at first contact. Basically, it's not like

22:36

he's breaking tackles, but he's a smooth. athlete

22:39

that made a lot of great plays

22:41

after the catch. So I find him fascinating.

22:43

I have him right there with Golden

22:45

and Evan really made a decision. So we'll

22:47

talk about Golden after the break. We'll

22:49

talk about the rest of a very fascinating

22:51

wide receiver class right after this. It's

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25:11

Back on NFL Daily.

25:13

A man with the

25:15

biggest water bottle I've

25:18

ever seen. Matt Harmon.

25:20

It's right next to me. You might as

25:22

well just show it off. It just feels a

25:24

little show -offy. It's a little bit. I mean...

25:26

I am better than you because I'm more

25:28

hydrated than you. That is for sure. Your water

25:30

bottle should increase with your mass, and Matt

25:32

has put on so much mass. It's true. Very

25:35

fit. That's what I mean. He's going to

25:37

be at the two -gallon water bottle very soon.

25:39

It's true. Matt is a

25:41

year away from – I guess

25:43

you're not going to be 6 '4",

25:45

like Tett McMillan. He's going to

25:47

be a draft site. The 2027

25:49

NFL draft will be at Matt

25:51

Harmon. The goal

25:53

is to next year at the Combine,

25:55

provided that they let me go back, is

25:57

to slip into one of the jumpsuits.

25:59

Well, definitely get into the bench. Slip into

26:02

one of the jumpsuits and see if

26:04

I can get some random beat writer to

26:06

start asking me questions. A

26:08

lot of buzz. A lot of buzz about Harmon's

26:10

body lately. Too much. Let's talk

26:12

about your next tier. Matthew

26:14

Golden, who you mentioned, Steve

26:16

Smith, for instance. It's

26:19

his number one wide receiver. Jeremiah

26:21

really has the top three basically

26:23

the same. 16, 17, 18 overall

26:25

on his board. But he does

26:27

have Golden first. Some people I

26:29

trust, we had on Ollie Connelly

26:31

earlier this week. He had Golden,

26:33

I believe, as his kind of

26:36

clear number two, along with TMAC.

26:38

Actually, not clear, but kind of

26:40

those two grouped together as a

26:42

strong two behind Hunter. So where

26:44

do you have Golden? And give

26:46

me kind of this tier, what

26:48

you have lined up. Yeah,

26:50

Golden's my next guy after

26:52

Agbuka. And I really like Matthew

26:54

Golden. And what's the rest of the tier first before

26:57

we get into Golden? I want to hear, or is

26:59

he all by himself? No, Luther

27:01

Burden and Jalen Knoll actually out of

27:03

Iowa State. This is kind of like

27:05

the guys that I think are late

27:07

first rounders, early second rounder types. I

27:09

think Golden's a really good player. He

27:11

comes out excellent in terms of success

27:13

rate versus zone coverage. I don't think,

27:15

I think his... I think his route

27:17

running like in the short area is

27:19

not ideal, but he's an excellent like

27:21

once he builds up speed, he and

27:23

to be honest you, I never saw

27:25

him as like a four sub four

27:27

three player, but he's obviously fast. He

27:29

brings you verticality. It's really he's more

27:31

like just. when he snaps off routes,

27:33

again, particularly in breakers, he just gets

27:35

so, so significantly open, particularly against like

27:37

off. Yeah, it really pops. And he,

27:39

to me, would fit so well in

27:41

a positioning that like Jordan Addison found

27:43

himself in, which is he's across from

27:45

a great number one and he can

27:47

be a very, very good number two

27:49

that gives you maybe not consistent production,

27:51

but like chunk plays and explosives down

27:53

the field, probably from like that offensive

27:56

family tree as well. So I really

27:58

like Golden. I think he does. He's

28:01

got good hands in contested situations. He's

28:03

actually one of these guys that the

28:05

harder and more difficult the catch, the

28:07

higher the catch rate is. And then if

28:09

it's just some of the more routine

28:11

stuff underneath, he will occasionally put too

28:13

many balls on the ground. So to

28:15

me, I think there's more upside with some

28:18

of the other guys. I think... looks

28:20

like just more of like a, like

28:22

a good solid number two receiver in

28:24

the NFL. Who's probably going to be more

28:26

tactically valuable to a team because he

28:28

opens up space for guys underneath. Then

28:30

he will be like productive in a

28:32

top receiver role. When you ran all the

28:34

numbers. So people who aren't familiar, you

28:36

should check out Matt Harmon on all

28:38

the podcasts he does. He does some football

28:41

301 with Nate Tice. He's got his

28:43

own podcast with his fantasy podcast at

28:45

Yahoo, but he also does reception perception.

28:47

That's his site. That's the supplementary. supplementary

28:49

income that he makes, which is important

28:52

in the game. You got your big job,

28:54

but then he's got a little side

28:56

job. And so if you are into football,

28:58

I highly recommend checking that out, subscribing.

29:00

When you broke it all down, and this

29:02

is proprietary stuff here, when you broke

29:04

it all down with Golden, I'm curious if

29:07

anything stuck out just like in terms

29:09

of how he wins or whether he was

29:11

just kind of consistent across the board. No,

29:14

I think if you look at like

29:16

his route tree, like the route... by

29:18

route chart. It really is the stuff down

29:20

the field. Nines, posts, corners, digs, outs.

29:22

But where I think and this is

29:24

just what I get hung up on is

29:27

that he's kind of average to below

29:29

average on curls and slants and stuff like

29:31

that, where he's going to just like

29:33

rack up consistent production. I think that's

29:35

the part where I didn't really see like

29:37

a clear cut round one player. And

29:39

I saw more of a very good

29:41

complimentary guy. Again, if he lands in a

29:43

spot like once the draft happens, he

29:46

lands. in a spot like Dallas where he

29:48

is across from a great number one

29:50

wide receiver like then I think that's

29:52

a really good situation for him but

29:54

where I wouldn't want him to go is

29:56

somewhere where he has to then step

29:58

into that number one wide receiver role because

30:00

I think he's more again more tactically

30:02

valuable and like as a compliment than

30:04

he is as a true number one yeah

30:07

it did the landing spot always is

30:09

going to matter for for all of

30:11

these guys but I think when you have

30:13

elite traits like his explosiveness is elite

30:15

and You look at the tape and

30:17

it shows up there. So like Matt mentioned in

30:19

the end breakers, I think there were a lot

30:21

of passing yards that Quinn Ewers might've left on

30:23

the table. Yes. Having golden.

30:26

Although he let him almost show off the

30:28

ball skills because he was, I had

30:30

a lot of great catches because they were

30:33

on bad, bad, bad throws. But the

30:35

Quinn's been doing that for a few prospects.

30:37

Yeah. It's had some guys in some

30:39

situations where like we, we might've underrated Xavier

30:41

worthy because of, because of the way

30:43

things kind of turned out there. And so

30:45

like, I know they had him returning

30:48

kicks. I didn't necessarily see

30:50

the broken tackles as a kicker because

30:52

you get this idea that, oh, this is

30:54

a kick return and you get him

30:56

the ball in space, he's going to make.

30:58

There wasn't a lot of that, but

31:00

the explosion. leapt off the screen in a

31:02

capacity to me that i can't push

31:04

him down past other guys who don't have

31:06

yeah to me he's so smooth i

31:08

i went back and forth between him and

31:10

mcmillan in the end but to me

31:12

i would have them kind of clearly ahead

31:14

because to me he's not a similar

31:17

player to buka but to me he has

31:19

a very high floor and maybe i'm

31:21

wrong about that he he came on and

31:23

had a big year but he seems

31:25

very good at a lot of things. Just

31:27

a solid, as you're saying, wide receiver

31:29

too. But I do think there's a little

31:31

potential for him to be closer to

31:33

a Devonta Smith. Not that he's exactly the

31:35

same player, but in the same way

31:37

that when people were saying, well, the size

31:39

is not ideal size. I don't care.

31:41

The way he played, he plays very strong

31:43

for his size. So I'm not worried

31:46

about his size. He pushed guys off press

31:48

coverage. He almost he he brought it

31:50

on and I thought he succeeded a lot

31:52

when he did it. And so that

31:54

to me was like, hmm, is there even

31:56

more here where he can be like

31:58

a really one of the best second receivers

32:00

in the league or a top 25

32:02

receiver? You mentioned McLaurin and I think it

32:04

was was it John Ledyard who made

32:06

that comparison? And I can kind of see

32:08

that like in a perfect world. Maybe

32:10

he wins a little bit like McLaurin and

32:13

obviously, you know. McLaurin's like all

32:15

pro level. That's next level. But you've got

32:17

to see how McLaurin fell in the draft. And

32:19

I kind of see that. And so I

32:21

like him a lot. I think it's a really

32:23

good wide receiver class. To me, there's a

32:25

pretty big drop off after those four, but not

32:27

for you. You have Burden and you have

32:29

Noel in this class. So kind of go through

32:31

your process and what you think about those

32:33

two guys. Yeah, with

32:35

Burden... He's

32:37

a tough one, man, because I think

32:39

if you grade to the flashes, I

32:41

think he looks like he could be

32:43

the best receiver in this class. The

32:45

problem is that it's not all flashes.

32:47

I do think he's a bit of

32:49

a similar to T -Mac, where I

32:51

think T -Mac's a bit of a misunderstood

32:53

player. Is this just like big non

32:55

-separation ball winner? I think Luther Burden

32:57

is a little bit too miscast because

32:59

of how he was used as like

33:01

a Mickey Mouse. pop gun receiver like

33:03

just kind of a design touches gadget

33:05

player there's actually to me a lot

33:08

more to his game potentially as a

33:10

as a man coverage beater again it

33:12

is flashes because he faced more zone

33:14

coverage than any receiver I've charted this

33:16

year and only one other prospect in

33:18

like the entire prospect database I have

33:20

which is about 150 players now has

33:22

faced more zone coverage than him and

33:24

it's just because of that role that

33:26

he's playing in so again it's flashes

33:28

but still 68th percentile success rate versus

33:30

man coverage right over 70%, which is

33:32

an encouraging number. It's primarily on these

33:34

like outbreaking routes where he was really,

33:36

really good. I mean, 90 .9 % success

33:38

rate on out routes, really, really encouraging

33:40

number for him. The problem is he's

33:42

facing all that zone coverage and he's

33:44

like an average zone beater. He

33:46

just gets caught up. Sometimes he runs

33:48

himself into zone coverage. He doesn't have

33:51

the best feel for it. So I

33:53

think there's. Honestly, the

33:55

best way to say it is how

33:57

good is Luther Burden going to be? That's

33:59

up to Luther Burden because he's another

34:01

guy that came into this year with a

34:03

lot of hype as just that he's

34:05

going to be a top 10 pick. He's

34:07

the best receiver in this class. And

34:09

people kind of think he mailed in this

34:11

season. And I think normally I wouldn't

34:13

say something like that, but I think it

34:16

shows up at times that he's just

34:18

not fully engaged with what's going on. I

34:20

think that's true. So I went back

34:22

and... Someone was like, you

34:24

got to watch his junior tape

34:26

or something. But I thought

34:28

it was there too. He maybe

34:30

popped a little more, but the

34:32

effort kind of came and went

34:34

a little bit with those two

34:36

earlier. He is a very exciting

34:39

player, but I struggle, and maybe

34:41

you're going to push back here,

34:43

Patrick, how does he fit into

34:45

a team? I think that is

34:47

sometimes lost in the draft mix,

34:49

the industrial complex. If there's

34:51

one thing that's probably missing the most

34:53

that I would say is a knowledge

34:56

of like how teams work and what's

34:58

working in the league and how he's

35:00

going to fit. And I'm not burden

35:02

feels like. man you better have a

35:04

plan for him and I'm not totally

35:06

sure so I hear you that it

35:08

could be really exciting but it could

35:10

be to me he looks like for

35:13

most teams like a fourth receiver that

35:15

you're like how do we use this

35:17

guy yeah and there's that danger of

35:19

the the gadget guy right right that

35:21

gets misused and I think the difficulty

35:23

and what needs to be done is

35:25

you need to evaluate what he can

35:27

do because I'm not sure Missouri was

35:29

was really featuring that Especially in 2024,

35:32

they brought on Kirby Moore as the

35:34

new offensive coordinator after the 2023 season.

35:36

And they went from the 29th ranked

35:38

offense in college football to 55. The

35:40

points per game dropped by seven. And

35:42

you just watch and you're like, OK,

35:44

show me what you can do, Luther.

35:46

And the offense is keeping you from

35:49

seeing that. I really don't think just

35:51

in terms of evaluating. what

35:53

the offense gave him an opportunity to do,

35:55

like, because it was the same quarterback. And

35:58

you're just wondering, like, the

36:00

crispness of, if you're going to ding Luther

36:02

on the crispness of the routes and the way

36:04

he proceeds, I kind of want to see

36:06

the offense operate in that capacity. It felt a

36:08

little like Tyler Warren, who we'll get to.

36:10

It was just kind of like, hey, run over

36:12

there. You know, just like, just

36:14

kind of run over there and we'll

36:16

figure it out. I don't know. But

36:18

one thing, right, he punishes bad tackling.

36:20

If you are not in the proper

36:22

position, Luther is going to make you

36:24

play. And if you're a Nick Imanwari

36:26

fan, the South Carolina game, when there

36:28

was one -on -one, Nick got him on

36:30

the ground. But then to the same

36:32

extent, when you finish that game, Luther

36:35

runs a slot fade with a minute and 30

36:37

seconds to go and wins the game. So

36:39

you saw his ability to

36:41

separate and to make plays

36:43

the catch point. You

36:47

need to have maybe if the tackling

36:49

is not up to snuff, he's going to

36:51

make you pay. But if guys are

36:53

out there and can move and have the

36:55

physical capacity. he's not breaking tackles

36:57

to the extent that you'd want like okay this

36:59

is our this is our Debo Samuel which

37:01

like nobody should do that anymore stop doing that

37:03

but like if you think but he is

37:05

that he is that guy in this class if

37:07

those guys haven't worked lately maybe that's what

37:09

it is but he's so much better against man

37:12

coverage than a guy like Debo Samuel that's

37:14

where that's where I get I come down with

37:16

him that I think there is more to

37:18

his game there's room to grow there and like

37:20

I mean like he could use him like

37:22

Rasheed Rice has used with the Kansas city chiefs.

37:24

So if you don't like Luther Burden's usage,

37:26

I better not hear you saying like Rasheed Rice

37:28

is one of the best young receivers in

37:30

the league. Like I just, I think you can

37:32

use him in that way and you can

37:34

develop more from there. Maybe it's, maybe it's just

37:36

the time in like the NFL evolution that

37:38

we're doing this show that I'm just like less

37:41

into these guys now than I would have

37:43

been like to me, if he was going to

37:45

be a chiefs receiver, he feels more like

37:47

Canary is Tony, but I, I'm, I want to

37:49

go back and watch. I don't feel like

37:51

I watched enough of, all these guys, and sometimes

37:53

it's the games that you catch them. And

37:55

I did try to go back to the older

37:57

ones. I mean, he's a really exciting player.

37:59

I think he's one where fit is going to

38:01

matter even more than most. I think that's

38:03

true of Noel, though, as well. So it's interesting

38:05

that you put him on your list, this

38:07

high Jalen Noel. So he's 5 '10", 194. Very

38:10

interesting profile. Fast 40.

38:13

but was more of like a vertical slot

38:15

guy. And so that's the type of role

38:17

I think he would have in the NFL. The

38:19

trick is to me, kind of going back to

38:22

what I said with Burden too, is like how

38:24

many teams know how to use that? How many

38:26

of those guys really are there? You kind of

38:28

need to do a lot of things. Do you

38:30

think he can do a lot of things, Jalen

38:32

Noel? Oh, yeah. This

38:34

is my type of receiver. From

38:36

a reception perception standpoint, he's very

38:38

similar to Lad McConkie last year

38:40

from a man coverage standpoint. From

38:42

more of a full profile standpoint,

38:44

I actually think he compares pretty

38:46

well to Josh Downs, who... I

38:49

mean, Josh Downs would be a much more

38:51

productive player if he wasn't playing in that Colts

38:53

offense, because I think he can give you

38:55

a lot of that like downfield stuff. You saw

38:57

that with Drake May at UNC. So, yeah,

38:59

Noel, I agree with you more of like a

39:01

vertical slot receiver, which that's what I want

39:03

out of my slot. Like, I don't want them

39:06

to just be that pop gun slot receiver.

39:08

Maybe Christian Kirk is a comp. Christian Kirk said,

39:10

like, again, in that same, I think, family

39:12

of players as well. And I mean, I think

39:14

Kirk. He got a lot of

39:16

grief for the contract that he signed,

39:18

but he was a really useful player

39:20

for Jacksonville for a while. So I

39:22

just this is the type of player

39:24

that I think gets pushed down because

39:26

they don't fit like traditional positional size

39:28

and kind of deployment. But you get

39:30

them in an NFL receiver room and

39:32

whether they're the two or the three

39:34

or whatever, they're just a really, really

39:36

useful player. You got to find the

39:38

right. the right fit. He, he

39:40

does feel unless he, but you're saying

39:42

he can do more. And I, and I

39:44

like that. I want to go back

39:47

and watch a little Jalen Noel more. My

39:49

question with Noel is why Noel before

39:51

Higgins? Okay. Yeah. And, and that can be

39:53

a transition to your next group, which

39:55

I assume Jaden Higgins, his teammate, they complimented

39:57

each other very well. I thought at

39:59

Iowa state, but you have Higgins lower. Give

40:01

me your next tier. And then, and

40:03

then, yeah, let us know why, why lower.

40:06

Yeah, we're like now in the squarely

40:08

day two zone, which I'm not

40:10

like Higgins is not next on my

40:12

list here. I've got guys like

40:14

Jack Bash, Kyle Williams, Trey Harris. Oh,

40:16

so you hate him. I

40:18

mean, I don't hate Jaden Higgins, but

40:20

I am a little confused why everybody's a

40:23

lot higher on Jaden Higgins than some

40:25

of these other guys because he just doesn't

40:27

separate enough to me. That's

40:29

the problem here, especially against press man

40:31

coverage. So to me, I don't think

40:33

he profiles as an NFL X receiver.

40:35

Teams are talking about, like Greg, where...

40:37

the league is going like teams are

40:39

moving away from this non -separation you

40:41

know big x receiver like what people

40:43

think mcmillan is i think higgins actually

40:45

is now that's not useless in the

40:47

nfl and by the way like i

40:49

felt Very similar. A lot of the

40:51

parts of Jaden Higgins profile in terms

40:53

of him being like a below average

40:55

press man coverage success rate player. Very

40:57

similar to like Keon Coleman last year.

40:59

I did this whole breakdown on YouTube

41:01

about it where like these guys that

41:03

are sub 35th percentile in press and

41:05

man coverage and reception perception. All the

41:07

prospects that were that way that have

41:09

gone on to be successes in the

41:11

NFL. They've transitioned from outside receivers to

41:13

big slot receivers in the NFL. Juju

41:15

Smith Schuster. I've mentioned Rasheed Rice. I'm

41:17

on Ross St. Brown was this. guy

41:19

so like there's a path for higgins

41:21

but he is very much one of

41:23

these guys like tell me what team

41:25

he's playing for like tell me how

41:28

this coaching staff is using him because

41:30

i think if he is used the

41:32

right way then i think like okay

41:34

he could be in that in that

41:36

like arc type of player where he's

41:38

this jumbo slot receiver who's really good

41:40

against zone coverage who catches everything He's

41:43

got like an alligator arm thing, like kind

41:45

of that 90 degree angle in contested situations.

41:47

Like, let's use that whole wingspan. Let's stretch

41:49

those arms out a little bit arms are

41:51

short, though? I feel like there's a couple.

41:53

No, he's the one with the massive wingspan.

41:56

And I think he leaves some of it

41:58

on the table. The arms are short, which

42:00

is a tough one. I liked him less

42:02

the more I watched him. I liked him

42:04

a lot right away. And then he felt

42:06

had the same experience. He felt like it

42:08

was kind of... inconsistent,

42:11

which you don't want because I don't,

42:13

and this is where I probably disagree

42:15

on Burden to consensus was I didn't

42:17

think his skills, Higgins that is, were

42:19

special enough to kind of make up

42:21

for it. And I actually kind of

42:23

felt that with Burden too. I thought

42:26

to be that type of player, you

42:28

have to really snap. You have to

42:30

be really special. And I didn't quite

42:32

get there for him. So I'm kind

42:34

of with you on Higgins that I

42:36

think he's an NFL player, but I

42:39

don't think in the end I came

42:41

like as high on him. Yeah. It's

42:43

the, it's again, the traits, right. To,

42:45

I can't run away from those when

42:47

those are, those are something when you've

42:49

got the, the wingspan, right. And I

42:51

understand, and Matt's absolutely right about the

42:54

criticism of up at the cap, at

42:56

the catch point where that's a place

42:58

where if you're trying to separate him

43:00

and McMillan, like there's a notable difference

43:02

there. But just to have that explosion

43:04

in this. And if you want to

43:07

like watch that, that Houston game, I

43:10

saw him making guys miss at

43:12

that height and weight. It's

43:14

exciting. It gets me excited and thinks, well,

43:17

the ceiling is there. And, again, you're trying

43:19

to hit these home runs. And they –

43:21

There were multiple teams that literally had no

43:23

answer for him. That's fair. That's why I

43:25

think it was all like some games were

43:27

good and then some games just didn't seem

43:29

like he had a great feel. That's probably

43:32

what I value the most. I mean, it's

43:34

all about how you were raised as a

43:36

fan or a wannabe draft. I go back

43:38

to like, I always liked like the Keery

43:40

Colbert and Mark Clayton types. The real receivers

43:42

receivers that maybe kind of like an Abuka

43:44

or a Golden who you feel like you

43:46

know what you're getting and they really can

43:49

run the routes and they can snap. off

43:51

and they can do everything but my other

43:53

type and there is one in this class

43:55

and we already talked about him on my

43:57

last show so I'm not going to repeat

43:59

myself but my guy in this class to

44:01

try to hit a home run is definitely

44:03

Kyle Williams and to me if you told

44:06

me he's your third or fourth receiver in

44:08

this class I get it like I would

44:10

be fine taking him personally in the first

44:12

round because I see it all I love

44:14

it I love me some Kyle Williams why

44:16

don't you love him quite as much as

44:18

me Matt Harmon I mean I don't know

44:20

he's pretty highly ranked for me uh and

44:23

again i think he's a guy that is

44:25

like i would put him in a tier

44:27

ahead of even jayden higgins like i mean

44:29

he's kind of like the middle like a

44:31

sort of a no man's land between like

44:33

you're not quite like around one guy but

44:35

you're not like a clear okay why isn't

44:37

he around one guy because he is a

44:40

guy i kept watching and being like yeah

44:42

what am i missing because he's got he's

44:44

got so many dogs in him all of

44:46

the dogs are in him Can

44:49

I be vulnerable here in terms

44:51

of why is he not around one

44:53

guy? Part of this is because

44:55

I think he's the type of receiver

44:57

I've fallen for way too hard

44:59

in the past where he's like a

45:02

smaller separator who does win at

45:04

all three levels. But because of the

45:06

size and the frame, like how

45:08

many quarterbacks really want to take that

45:10

throw? Like maybe there's a little

45:12

bit of like Elijah Moore scarring here,

45:14

honestly, because I think he's of

45:16

Andy Isabella. No, he's not. Don't

45:19

put me in the Andy Isabella fan club

45:21

here. But no, I think I think with

45:23

Kyle Williams, he does come from a lower

45:25

level. That's part of it, too. You know,

45:27

he's not quite like these guys that have

45:29

only lined up on. one side of the

45:31

field at one outside receiver position, like 70

45:33

plus percent of their snaps in reception perception.

45:36

It's actually like a long list of red

45:38

flags there. He's not quite in

45:40

that bucket, so he does miss that for

45:42

me, but it was pretty close. I think

45:44

he's just a guy that can play all

45:46

three receiver positions. He can make plays after

45:48

the catch. He beats man coverage. So, yeah,

45:50

it's hard to find a lot of flaws.

45:53

I don't see the flaws. I guess he's

45:55

not. He doesn't have the size or whatever,

45:57

but if you're. If I

45:59

needed to pick one player from

46:01

this class that would make Pro

46:03

Bowls, I think that isn't going

46:05

to get taken in these top...

46:07

I don't really seem that far

46:09

apart from T -Mac or Golden. To

46:11

me, he's right there for me

46:14

personally because I just... I don't

46:16

know, man. And I like to

46:18

celebrate. He just seems like an

46:20

NFL player to me. I just...

46:22

He seems like a... like

46:24

receiver smart is, is the word I would

46:26

use where he knows how to do everything. And

46:28

he's super explosive. Like he's a home run

46:31

hitter and he can hit some doubles too. I

46:33

don't know. A little Washington state, Kyle Williams

46:35

for you. Go Cougs. Like to me, he's not

46:37

that different than Jamison Williams as a, as

46:39

a prospect who I probably overrated too. Maybe I'm

46:41

like you, maybe I'm like, okay, maybe that's

46:43

too much. That's too much. I

46:45

don't know. I don't know. You don't

46:47

see him like out running the entire

46:49

deal. He's not, he doesn't have the,

46:51

the like just pure home run speed

46:54

like that, but he's got enough of

46:56

it. to me the the explosion in

46:58

the separation like to put him in

47:00

that category I just I didn't see

47:02

it to the extent where I watched

47:04

a little a little Williams and then

47:06

I'm like wait let's let's go on

47:08

to somebody else oh how dare you

47:10

what a hater I'm not I'm not

47:13

trying to hate celebrating the explosion of

47:15

other guys because I am biased towards

47:17

that okay so that that's Harmon's big

47:19

group there We got to

47:21

get to the tight ends before we, before

47:23

we wrap up. So, so we will, unless

47:25

you just have something that you are dying

47:27

to say about that group of wide receivers

47:29

that Matt Harmon just feels like passionately about

47:31

and have to get in. I love Jack

47:33

Bash. Oh, you do. I love, I, yeah,

47:35

I love Jack Bash, dude. The guys, he's

47:37

a really good player. Gets

47:39

open, catches everything. He's

47:42

really he's talk about sneaks up on you after

47:44

the catch. Like he really breaks a lot of tackles

47:46

in the open field. Maybe a

47:48

guy that needs to play in the slot

47:50

because he certainly like I mean, he's

47:52

like nine route success rate, his corner route

47:54

success rate. They just flat out stink

47:56

like he doesn't get open down the field.

47:58

That worries me a little going to

48:00

the end. mean, but I guess when you're

48:02

open everywhere else, like just find the

48:04

right deployment for this player. I think he

48:06

just makes a lot of sense with

48:08

a team like Jacksonville that, you know, you've

48:11

got Liam Cohen there. You're coming from

48:13

like. that Rams organization from the front office

48:15

perspective. They've just made such good use

48:17

of this type of receiver. Like, why can't

48:19

he just be in the role that

48:21

Chris Godwin was in for Liam Cohen last

48:23

year? I think that just makes so

48:25

much sense. I don't think he has the

48:27

juice personally. Well, I mean, since we're

48:29

going to talk tight end at 218 pounds,

48:31

could he fulfill the receiving role that

48:33

like Evan Ingram? And I understand it was

48:35

a different offense. of has. Yeah, there's

48:37

times his career he has. Or like not.

48:39

I was going to see Zach Richardson.

48:41

I just, I do worry about him that

48:43

there's not a lot of team. I

48:45

think he has a very specific skill set

48:47

and I think we've seen guys like

48:49

him. To me, in

48:51

terms of that snap and that, I do

48:53

worry about him getting open against NFL players, but

48:56

we'll see. There's a lot of smarter

48:58

people than me, including you and Jeremiah. Love

49:00

him. And so I hope I'm wrong being a

49:02

little more down on him. Let's talk about

49:04

the tight end. There's so many times where a

49:06

guy goes to Mobile and has that week

49:08

where it's like, It feels

49:10

obvious. And then in hindsight, we look back

49:12

and like, oh, yeah, we should have known after what he

49:15

did to all those dudes. Obvious in a

49:17

positive way. Yeah. Like, why weren't we

49:19

on board sooner? That's interesting because I would

49:21

say Kyle Williams and Besch maybe helped

49:23

themselves as much as anyone. So they're two

49:25

guys that were down in Mobile. And

49:27

as they say, that's where the NFL draft

49:29

starts. Let's take one more break and

49:31

then we'll wrap up with the tight ends.

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52:34

on NFL Daily, wrapping up with the tight ends.

52:36

And this is just going to be vibes. Harmon,

52:38

for some reason, doesn't do tight

52:40

ends on reception perception. I mean,

52:42

they are receivers, Matt. Okay,

52:45

can I tell you why? Because it can probably

52:47

take too long. Wow. I

52:49

mean, you spoiled it there. I was going

52:51

to give you the dork reason, which

52:53

is, you know, I've been charting receivers now

52:55

for 12 years. I've been doing reception

52:57

perception. So like, okay, I can tell you

52:59

this player has, you know, is this

53:01

percentile versus man coverage. Like this is the

53:03

type of role, the type of offense,

53:05

everything that he could play in. can compare

53:07

it to the previous years. That's really

53:09

cool. I like that. Yeah. I mean, you've

53:11

got guys in the database that have

53:13

been through there their entire career. Like Mike

53:15

Evans' entire career is in the reception

53:17

perception database. You know, if we start over

53:20

with tight ends, we're going back to

53:22

square one. I don't know what to say.

53:24

Right. But how old are you, Herman?

53:26

You're still a young man. How old are

53:28

you? Well, and I'm 33. I'll be

53:30

34 this year. How long do you plan

53:32

to be on this business? This

53:34

leads me to my second point of

53:36

why I'm not going to do it,

53:38

which is I'm a happily married man.

53:40

I'm trying to say a happily married

53:42

man, buddy. I got enough receivers to

53:44

deal with. You know the requests that

53:46

come in in the reception perception discord?

53:48

It's like, hey, chart Ricky White out

53:50

of UNLV. There's too many receivers. I

53:52

got enough on my plate. Okay, but...

53:54

is where, you know, I would never

53:56

had a chance to work exactly with

53:58

you. We were both at NFL media

54:00

at the same time. And it was

54:02

what a star Harmon was, a shooting

54:04

star. And they messed up letting Harmon

54:06

go from the fantasy department. But, you

54:08

know, he had a great opportunity. But

54:10

if I was going to give you

54:12

advice sort of in a boss role

54:14

here, I would say like, well, forget

54:16

Ricky White, you know. Tyler Warren and

54:18

Colston Loveland, these top guys, they're more

54:20

box office than your fourth to seventh

54:23

round receivers. So maybe just don't do

54:25

receiver 23 through 60 and just do

54:27

like the stars of the tight ends.

54:29

And that would be good for just

54:31

people's interest. People would pay for that.

54:33

That's what I'm saying. It sounds like,

54:35

Greg, you want to do the tight

54:37

end. A potential investor in reception perception.

54:39

A potential investor right here. I like

54:41

bringing you back to more our level,

54:43

which is we're not just doing off

54:45

vibes. We watch these guys, but we're

54:47

not breaking it down like Harmon does.

54:49

I do think you should weigh Harmon's

54:51

opinions. No offense, Patrick. More than ours

54:53

in the previous conversation. But this one,

54:55

we're on equal footing. We're all even

54:57

playing. So do you like... I'm going

54:59

to start with Patrick then. because

55:02

it feels like there's a big two.

55:04

It feels like there's a big four

55:06

at tight end this year, but really

55:08

the two guys, Colston Loveland and Tyler

55:10

Warren, who Jeremiah again has in the

55:12

top, I think 10 of his overall

55:14

players. I'm not sure where Loveland landed

55:16

there. They feel like the

55:18

big two. Do you have a favorite between

55:20

those two? um yes i have a

55:23

big two but it's one of those is

55:25

not in it okay tyler warren is

55:27

such a mechanized destroyer of worlds that does

55:29

so many different things he has to

55:31

be the te1 the explosion is quantified by

55:33

the titan by the combine work leaps

55:35

off the screen so he's my te1 harold

55:37

fanon jr is one

55:39

of my favorite players in this

55:41

draft. The production is off the

55:43

charts. I have beef with our

55:45

production score from NGS, which somehow

55:48

has Warren as more productive than

55:50

Harold Fannin Jr., who literally had

55:52

more catches at tight end than

55:54

anybody in the history of college

55:56

football last year. He is 20

55:58

years old. Shout

56:00

out to Michael Florio. I'm

56:02

keeping track of ages here,

56:04

where... He will be 21

56:07

coming up in July. So

56:09

he's a full year younger

56:11

than Colston Loveland. He

56:13

ran that 4 -7 in Indy. Okay.

56:16

Also 4 -7 in Indy, Keenan Allen, right?

56:19

When somebody does things so differently in

56:21

a different way and they still produce,

56:23

I think that's unique and unique talent

56:25

is what you want. I am a

56:27

Harold fan and junior guy. I love

56:29

that because, you know, going way back

56:31

to the combine when we talked with

56:34

Nate Tice, he is as well and

56:36

just thinks he's such a unique player.

56:38

And I actually think bucketing those two

56:40

guys, Matt, makes sense because I sort

56:42

of don't know fully what to do

56:44

with him. And I'm with... Patrick in

56:46

the sense that I actually would feel

56:49

more comfortable probably going, drafting Fannin ahead

56:51

of his consensus than I would, which

56:53

would probably be what second round. If

56:55

you really want to make sure you

56:57

get Harold Fannin, then I would bet

56:59

in the farm on a top 10

57:02

pick for Tyler Warren, just because I'm

57:04

just not sure. He's so unique that

57:06

I'm just not sure. Is he, is

57:08

he special enough to be like, Almost

57:10

different than any tight end out there

57:12

where he is not to give the

57:14

Debo comparison again, but he's like tight

57:17

end Debo. You know, it's like just

57:19

this guy you got to get the

57:21

ball to that's got to run people

57:23

over and just destroy you. Yeah,

57:26

that's my thing with Tyler Warren is I

57:28

do think he's very similar to some of

57:30

the receivers we talked about where it's like

57:32

what team and like what offensive coordinator is

57:34

he playing for? Because I think he's kind

57:36

of gotten a reputation as he's just a

57:38

traditional inline tight end who's really good as

57:40

a blocker. But I think that's just because

57:42

he plays in the Big Ten and he's

57:44

like a tough guy, you know, because I

57:46

think he's more of like a singular design

57:48

touches type of player. Like the

57:50

positive side of that is that. Like the Raiders

57:52

did a lot of work to design things for

57:54

Brock Bowers last year, which I'm not saying this

57:57

to take anything away from Bowers. It's because they

57:59

didn't have anybody else to throw the football. careful

58:01

here. Be careful here. I mean, but I

58:03

just, I'm not, again, I'm not taking anything

58:05

away from Bowers, but like when a tight

58:08

end is that much farther, the most productive

58:10

player on your team, like most concepts in

58:12

a playbook don't like run through the tight

58:14

end. So I think you just have to

58:16

take that like extra work to make him

58:18

Tyler Warren. That is depending on where he

58:20

goes. The production is

58:22

worth the squeeze that you're putting into

58:24

it there. But if he lands with

58:26

the team, like a Ben Johnson, right?

58:28

I think he could really find ways

58:30

to use him because he's not too

58:32

dissimilar to Sam Laporta, who I think

58:34

is another guy that kind of because

58:36

he comes out of Iowa, he gets

58:38

this reputation as a rugged tight end.

58:40

But the Lions have had to do

58:42

a lot to design things for Sam

58:44

Laporta. And obviously, it's been more than

58:46

worth it for them. See, if I

58:48

was a reception perception guy, I would

58:50

be curious how... He if he if

58:52

he was rather Tyler Warren, I would

58:54

be curious how he would play out

58:56

on that because he seems even more

58:58

like a burden type, which is just

59:01

kind of like, hey, run over there

59:03

and throw it. And I do worry

59:05

it's really hard to like evaluate football.

59:08

Smarts, for lack of a better word, on the

59:10

field, but he's such a unique player and

59:12

it took him so long to get on the

59:15

field that that worries me a lot. And

59:17

the people I trust that I've asked around the

59:19

league are. quite low on his blocking in

59:21

fact like it might be a huge negative whereas

59:23

colston loveland who's lighter and stuff he just

59:25

fits more what you see as a tight end

59:27

and he kind of fits more of a

59:29

mold of a guy that like yeah he's not

59:31

much of a blocker in college but like

59:33

we can build him up and we can teach

59:35

him that and the want to is all

59:37

there and warren's just such a unique player and

59:39

his unique Skill is not

59:41

route running. It's just like, watch

59:44

out. Here comes Tyler Warren. And

59:46

it's so unique and it's so awesome

59:48

that it really might work. So

59:50

I'm with you. I think the Jets

59:52

are another interesting spot too because

59:54

they're going to be running a Lions

59:56

-type offense with their coordinator and Tanner

59:58

Engstrom. But if you're asking him... to

1:00:01

just play tight end, I'm more worried.

1:00:03

And that's why I like Loveland more. Cause

1:00:05

to me, it's like, I would take

1:00:07

Loveland on 26, 27 teams. And that's where

1:00:09

I like it to me. He's like

1:00:11

maybe a Laporta plus even where like, I

1:00:13

can see the, I can see the

1:00:15

receiver skills. I think he's going to step

1:00:17

into the league and be a nice

1:00:19

tight end for you right away. But I

1:00:21

think in his usage at Penn state,

1:00:23

he was a victim of his ability to

1:00:25

where it's like, okay, well he's our

1:00:27

wildcat quarterback, not because like we're trying to

1:00:29

force feed Tyler Warren, but because he's,

1:00:32

the best and the best athlete best player

1:00:34

by far they could put in that

1:00:36

position and so he's going to get those

1:00:38

volume target opportunities not because like that's

1:00:40

how you get him the ball but because

1:00:42

he's he's the best player on the

1:00:44

team to do that to where like a

1:00:46

few years ago like all those plays

1:00:48

would have been going to like saquon all

1:00:50

right or just like any other good

1:00:52

penn state player but because it was him

1:00:54

Like that's, that's where a large volume

1:00:56

of his opportunity came from. But then you

1:00:58

see him when he is split out

1:01:00

wide, when he is in the slot running

1:01:02

a seam, like he teleports away from

1:01:04

corners and safeties. Like the explosion is there.

1:01:06

It picks up. You're right. Like to

1:01:08

an extent, he didn't test at all, which

1:01:10

is a little bit of a worry,

1:01:12

but, uh, but he,

1:01:15

He's one of two players, at least in this

1:01:17

class, where I think, well, would

1:01:19

Taysom Hill Plus really be a bad

1:01:21

outcome? Taysom Hill's a pretty useful

1:01:23

player. I'd be a little worried. Both

1:01:25

him and Jalen Milrow, who are

1:01:27

very different players, and I think Milrow

1:01:29

would be plus plus. But I'm

1:01:31

like, actually, Taysom Hill Plus Plus would

1:01:33

be kind of great. I would

1:01:36

be a little worried about taking him

1:01:38

in the top 10. Between the

1:01:40

rest of the tight ends. Harmon, who

1:01:42

stands out to you? Who do

1:01:44

you like? Who don't you like? Yeah.

1:01:47

Terrence Ferguson from Oregon, I think is like

1:01:49

a classic, like bet on an athlete, bet

1:01:51

on the traits. And I do think he

1:01:53

actually could end up being really productive down

1:01:55

the line in his career. Maybe not like

1:01:57

right away, but that just seems like the

1:02:00

type of tight end who hits. I think

1:02:02

I like his ball skills. I like... just

1:02:04

the movement skills for him. And then Mason

1:02:06

Taylor from LSU. I know a

1:02:08

lot of people really like Mason Taylor.

1:02:10

I do as well. He just is, it

1:02:12

seems like a good, like maybe you're

1:02:14

not hitting the a plus like outrageous high

1:02:16

upside tight end, but something in like

1:02:18

kind of that Zach Ertz ish range where

1:02:21

he just catches everything and he becomes

1:02:23

a really good complimentary part of your passing

1:02:25

game. I think those are the other

1:02:27

two guys you got to kind of watch

1:02:29

out for. Yeah. A player that was

1:02:31

exceedingly productive from the moment he got to

1:02:33

LSU. to where it feels safer. I

1:02:35

would say Mason Taylor, to me, is a

1:02:37

safer prospect than Loveland, just in terms

1:02:39

of as a pass catcher. Because I know

1:02:41

blocking is important. And yeah, ideally, these

1:02:43

guys are going to be Gronk or George

1:02:46

Kittle. None of them

1:02:48

are coming into the NFL, really. Almost none

1:02:50

of them. I'm

1:02:52

evaluating them as pass

1:02:54

catchers. Yeah, I prefer... Taylor

1:02:57

to Loveland. To me, Loveland, and I

1:02:59

did go back to watch a couple of

1:03:01

the games before when he had J .J.

1:03:03

McCarthy as his quarterback, which definitely helped. I

1:03:06

think he has a higher ceiling

1:03:08

off the bat, but I'm with you

1:03:10

that in this class where so

1:03:12

much feels uncertain, if I'm comparing Mason

1:03:14

Taylor to some of these DL5

1:03:17

guys who it's just like, man, it

1:03:19

feels like there's a 50 % chance

1:03:21

they're going to be total bust. Taylor

1:03:24

feels like a first -round prospect

1:03:26

to me. He feels very much

1:03:28

like the tight end Agbuka, where

1:03:30

he's going to be good. And

1:03:32

if the outcome really is Ertz

1:03:34

or closer to Goddard, that's even

1:03:36

better than that. If you put

1:03:38

Goddard back in the draft... Like,

1:03:40

he's going top 20. Because

1:03:43

you can lock in like a plus.

1:03:45

If you can lock in a plus

1:03:47

starter at any position, especially tight end,

1:03:49

I like him a lot too. And

1:03:51

there's really differing opinions on Arroyo because

1:03:53

that type of player has busted a

1:03:55

lot lately, which is like the big

1:03:57

receiver, essentially. And yet, I'm into him.

1:03:59

I don't have him too far behind

1:04:01

Taylor. I like these tight ends. I

1:04:03

would not mind taking these tight ends

1:04:05

again ahead of... those two guys ahead

1:04:07

of wide receiver 5, 6, 7 for

1:04:09

me. I have Kyle Williams up with

1:04:11

Golden and stuff, but after that, I

1:04:13

think Arroyo is a really good pass

1:04:15

catcher, and I'm into it. I would

1:04:17

just like, when you're playing with a

1:04:19

quarterback that's going to go number one

1:04:21

overall and you only miss one game,

1:04:23

the 35, I'm going to need more

1:04:26

production out of him to leapfrog these

1:04:28

guys. Sorry, Matt. What were you going

1:04:30

to say? No, you're good, man. I

1:04:32

just think it's a really interesting tight

1:04:34

end class as well. And get these

1:04:36

guys in the room, maybe develop a

1:04:38

few of them. I wouldn't be surprised

1:04:40

if there is a couple of guys

1:04:42

who are kind of close to those

1:04:44

wide receivers here and maybe they end

1:04:46

up being more just useful. And the

1:04:48

crazy thing is there are wide receivers

1:04:50

and probably a tight end or two

1:04:52

that we just didn't even talk about.

1:04:54

And that they're not only going to

1:04:56

be starting within a year or two,

1:04:58

they will be like impact big time

1:05:00

players. And it's just, we don't have

1:05:02

all the time in the world, but

1:05:04

it was great to talk to you,

1:05:06

Matt Harmon. Here's what we're going to

1:05:08

do. I'm making a, I mean, it's

1:05:11

more of a threat than a promise

1:05:13

because, you know, newsflash, not everyone like

1:05:15

loves going on other people's podcasts. It's

1:05:17

ultimately like other, it's more work. And

1:05:20

I'm going to try to get you to do

1:05:22

more work. And it's going to be a podcast

1:05:24

that's not just about wide receivers next time. There

1:05:26

it is. All right.

1:05:28

I will take you up on that and we'll see.

1:05:30

I might just end up sneaking in wide receiver

1:05:32

talk anyway. mean, no, it's not like we can't talk

1:05:35

about it. Maybe it'll be like workout tips. We're

1:05:37

deep into the we can talk. We can talk

1:05:39

about that. We can talk about, you know, egg

1:05:41

quality, all kinds of things, man. So it was good.

1:05:43

It was good to see you both. going to

1:05:45

be out in L .A. next week for our Yahoo

1:05:47

Sports live draft show. So I hope to see

1:05:49

you both. Yeah, I would normally

1:05:51

say like we should get you in here, but

1:05:53

you're going to be busy. So everyone check

1:05:55

them out at Yahoo. We're going to

1:05:57

be here in the studio on draft night, by

1:05:59

the way, Patrick. I don't know if I've

1:06:01

mentioned that. I have to you. Shout out to

1:06:03

that. No, we've talked about it to the

1:06:06

listeners. That's it for today's show. We are back.

1:06:08

So this is actually going to be the

1:06:10

last NFL daily. You hear for

1:06:12

a few days because we have a

1:06:14

40s and free agents with Daniel Jeremiah.

1:06:16

That's going to drop on Thursday. Then

1:06:18

we're back with another 40s and free

1:06:20

agents. That's going to go Monday morning.

1:06:22

And then we're off every single day

1:06:24

next week to cover the NFL draft.

1:06:26

And yeah, when when Matt Harmon's lugging

1:06:28

around that gallon water bottle, football's back. Welcome

1:06:36

to NFL Daily, where we do

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