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2:26

now, move the sticks

2:28

with Daniel Jeremiah and

2:30

Bucky Brooks. Welcome

2:32

to Move the Sticks. I am Bucky Brooks

2:35

and my man, Mike Yam, who

2:37

is sitting in for DJ. We just

2:39

posted how many hours of coverage, like

2:41

almost five hours of coverage, four hours

2:43

of coverage. And we saw the first

2:45

round and we're going to get into

2:47

everything that we saw in the first

2:49

round. We're to talk about the quarterback,

2:51

Shadr Sanders, who is on the outside

2:53

looking in. But let's get into

2:55

it. It's time for Hot or Not, brought

2:57

to you by Wasabi Hot Cloud Storage. Yammer

3:01

overall thoughts on the first round. I just

3:03

got to get your take on. Okay. So can

3:05

we just rewind for a second? First of

3:07

all, I'm sitting in for DJ. So there's automatically,

3:09

I'm like, what are we doing right now?

3:11

are we talking about? Then I find out I'm

3:13

working with you. So obviously I'm excited because

3:15

I get to you. But then to take it

3:17

another level, I'm used to running point. Yeah,

3:19

I just get out of the way and we

3:21

put the headsets on bucks like, yo, I

3:23

got you. I said, oh, OK, OK, I'll step

3:25

back here. This is awesome.

3:27

Look, you and I were doing Mock Traff live on

3:29

NFL Network for a few weeks. So the fact

3:31

that we get this first round and we get to

3:33

actually see how it plays out and unfold, there

3:35

wasn't a huge surprise. I think clearly the trades, I

3:37

thought it was going to be relatively quiet. I

3:39

didn't think it would be a ton of splashes. And

3:42

I do think in the, in the scope when

3:44

you compare it to previous years, like there, there

3:46

weren't really a ton of trades, but we saw

3:48

aggressive moves, which I like the teams that decided

3:50

to go and move up, like the Jax, a

3:52

team that you know really well because you're part

3:54

of that radio broadcast. They said, look, we're going

3:56

to take a swing. We're going to go and

3:58

get Travis Hunter. And I know you love him.

4:01

But on top of that, the Giants and the

4:03

Falcons, ATL was a little bit of a surprise,

4:05

but I love what they did. They took two

4:07

big swings on the defensive side when they've had

4:09

some issues. I love that. get

4:11

some dudes that can get after the quarterback and then

4:13

the Giants. You know, I yeah, you

4:15

rock you rock with the judge. So let's

4:17

let's talk about all the traits like right off

4:19

the top. The Jasmine Jaguar is moving from

4:21

five to two to get Travis Hunter. The

4:24

thing about the Travis Hunter pick is

4:26

in talking to people in the building, they

4:28

say like, look, there were three Jews

4:30

that were on their board. They were really

4:32

covered. It was Travis Hunter. It was

4:34

Aston Gentie. And then it was Ted McMillan.

4:36

That was the way that they saw

4:38

like, offensively, they wanted to add somebody with

4:41

some splash, some pizzazz to that offense. For

4:43

them to make the move to get Travis

4:45

Hunter, one, it tells me that Liam Coyne

4:47

and James Glaston are all in on trying

4:50

to make this team better in a hurry.

4:52

Two, they talked about James Glaston and talked

4:54

about having the intangible quality. If you get

4:56

the players to write intangibles, the culture in

4:58

the locker room changes organically because you're bringing

5:00

the right people in or whatever. Well, we

5:02

know Travis Hunter, he is about football, he's

5:04

about fishing. He is all ball all the

5:06

time. Terrific player. And then. a

5:08

unique talent as a two -way player. So

5:11

I'm just curious on how that's going

5:13

to work for them in terms of what

5:15

is the plan. But then the trades, and

5:17

the reason I'm going to go to the Giants before

5:20

we go to the Falcons is I'm looking at Abdul

5:22

Carter at three. And when they made the move to

5:24

get Abdul Carter, I'm like, okay, what that plays to

5:26

their identity. When they've been at their best, the

5:28

D line kind of sets the tone.

5:30

We saw them knock off the Patriots twice

5:32

because their D line was so dominant

5:34

like it worked. But then the question is,

5:36

Are they going to get a quarterback? If

5:39

they do get a quarterback, who's going

5:41

to be the quarterback? So they trade back

5:43

in. They get into 25. They get Jackson

5:45

Dart. And look, Jackson Dart's

5:47

name has been popping up as

5:49

being a first round. That was not

5:51

a question. But Jackson Dart

5:53

going over Shadoor Sanders as the

5:55

preferred pick for the Giants. That

5:58

is the conversation that we'll have over the next few

6:00

years. OK, so there's a lot to unpack on what you

6:02

just said. I want to circle back on the Giants

6:04

for a moment, but I think you have this experience that

6:06

I think needs to be shared here. Obviously,

6:08

as a scout, you've been in a lot

6:10

of these draft rooms. You've done the talent evaluation.

6:13

You know what these conversations are like. I

6:15

talk to a lot of fans, and they'll say,

6:17

oh, first round guy. Not every team has

6:19

a first round grade on all 32 players. And

6:21

I think what you just said about the

6:23

Jacks is fascinating because you said who's on their

6:25

board that they really like. Like Travis Hunter

6:27

was one of those guys. And

6:29

then Gentie, right? And whoever whatever that order

6:31

is. I don't know if there's. I don't

6:33

know, 31 other teams that would have had

6:35

it necessarily lay out like that. And the

6:38

reality is like, I just think it's really

6:40

important to have and set that distinction because

6:42

Ted McMillan is a great example. I hadn't

6:44

heard his name is one of the players

6:46

and yet you're telling me the Jags had

6:48

him. The Jags had him right there. So

6:50

it's funny, right? Because when he played out

6:52

in. This kind of tells you

6:54

about the entire process because the way that the

6:56

process started, Ted McMillan was the name that

6:58

we talked about up in the top five. Sure.

7:00

The entire time when those mock drafts came

7:02

out early, Ted McMillan's name was always dotted in

7:04

the top 10. Then it kind

7:06

of fell out. And then it was a conversation

7:08

like, hey, he might not be wide receiver

7:10

one, because I wasn't including Travis Hunter as wide

7:13

receiver one. So maybe, you know, somebody else

7:15

is there. And then, lo and behold, the Jaguars

7:17

get their guy and Travis Hunter, Ashton Gendy

7:19

comes off the board of six. And

7:21

then Ted McMillan comes off the board at

7:23

eight. And so when we talk about the Jaguars

7:25

having their board ranked like that, look,

7:27

I can't say they're wrong based on

7:29

the way those guys came off the board.

7:32

Okay. So from a strategy standpoint, though,

7:34

if you're Jacksonville and it was Travis Hunter,

7:36

Gentie and T -Mac, why make the move

7:38

then to go to two? Cause presumably

7:40

you would have been able to get one

7:42

of those guys at five. Because they

7:44

felt that strongly that Travis Hunter is that.

7:46

So when I ratted off those names,

7:48

it would be Travis Hunter, long pause. So

7:52

they felt that strongly about what Travis

7:54

Hunter brings as a dynamic two -way player

7:56

that they wanted to get him. And it

7:58

not only had to be the talent

8:00

that we saw. We saw the talent for

8:03

two years at Colorado and we also

8:05

saw it at Jackson State. But it's more

8:07

the kid, the person, what he's bringing,

8:09

how much he loves the game, all of

8:11

those other things. They really stood out

8:13

to them. So we're doing the change over

8:15

the transformation of the team. That is

8:17

why they wanted him to spearhead. the charge.

8:19

I want to ask you as the

8:22

resident Giants fan, Abdul Carter, like that's one

8:24

thing. I think you get excited about

8:26

that. He had posted a week or so

8:28

ago, the picture of Lawrence Taylor. So

8:30

everyone kind of knew, like, okay, that's cool.

8:33

But I got to get your take, man.

8:35

The Giants have kind of been in

8:37

the desert looking for a franchise quarterback. Jackson

8:39

dart. What's the first thing that came to

8:41

mind when you heard the name associated with the

8:43

Giants? Yeah, I was surprised. I wasn't surprised

8:45

that the Giants moved back into the first round.

8:47

I was surprised that it was Jackson dart.

8:50

That was the name for a couple reasons. Number

8:52

one, just the buzz around Shaddur Sanders. I

8:54

do flash back to neighbors and Sanders in the

8:56

streets, you know, a couple months ago, kind

8:58

of playing catch, clearly being linked there. And we

9:00

spent and buck, you know, this man, like

9:02

I spent a lot of time covering college football

9:04

and it did feel like Cam Ward and

9:06

Shaddur Sanders. This was the conversation. Who was going

9:08

to be the first? overall pick. And as

9:10

the draft process unfolded, I said, Oh, you know,

9:12

maybe we're not talking about him. You and

9:14

I were we did a couple mock draft lives.

9:16

I'm like, Damn, like, you guys really don't

9:19

think she doors going all all this high. And

9:21

yet clearly that didn't happen. The Jackson Dart

9:23

angle is intriguing to me because the first thing

9:25

I think about is when I used to

9:27

watch Jackson Dart at USC and then you transition

9:29

to Ole Miss and he's playing for Lane

9:31

Kiffin and I don't always know what to make

9:33

of a quarterback that's played for Lane because

9:35

the reality is like it's just and I don't

9:37

mean this in a disrespectful way but it's

9:39

inflated numbers you know like Lane's an offensive dude

9:41

and he figures out brilliantly

9:43

how to get the ball into his playmaker's

9:46

hands. What I love about Jackson -Dart, I

9:48

remember watching a lot of games this

9:50

year where he's got a little oomph to

9:52

him, right? Like we use the term

9:54

swag on our show on Draft Night, and

9:56

I think that's appropriate. But there's a

9:58

little moxie attitude, leadership thing. And I think

10:00

back to Brian Dabal and more specifically,

10:02

I'm going to relate this to to Giants

10:04

fans or just fans in general of

10:06

the NFL. You watch Hard Knocks and you

10:08

see how Brian Dabal is peppering the

10:10

quarterbacks, whether considering who to draft. And Brian's

10:13

got a little bit of that attitude,

10:15

that little bit of that attitude and in

10:17

a good way, right? Like you can

10:19

try to coach up his guys. I think

10:21

Jackson Darts going to respond really well

10:23

to that. But I don't. I

10:25

candidly thought there was a world that existed

10:27

where the Giants and Jalen Milrow was going to

10:30

be that marriage. I watched Jalen, I see

10:32

those traits physically, and I see so much damn

10:34

upside. And if you're telling me that Russ

10:36

is going to be your Week 1 starter, James

10:39

is in the fold of security, there's

10:41

a part of me that thinks that Jalen

10:43

Milrow might have been a better fit. Now, once

10:45

again, that wasn't the case for the Giants

10:47

and Jackson darts their guy, but they have been

10:49

able to now check the box and say

10:51

we got arguably the best player in this draft

10:53

in Abdul Carter, which is going to help that

10:55

defense. And we have the quarterback of the

10:57

future. Yeah. It is

10:59

so funny to kind of hear

11:01

the conversation and how they finally went

11:03

about it. They wanted to make

11:05

sure that they got their quarterback of

11:07

the future. And Jackson Dart, to

11:09

me, was interesting because I felt like

11:11

early in the process, he was

11:13

underrated. And then I worried about him

11:15

being a little overrated. And I'm

11:17

looking at this piece. that I wrote,

11:19

not it didn't appear on NFL.com,

11:21

but look, I wrote about after the

11:23

gunslinger development, one or more efficient

11:25

and explosive playmakers in college football during

11:27

his three year run at Ole

11:29

Miss. Big play mentality, sparking offense, lit

11:31

up scoreboards back to back seasons

11:33

with 10 wins. 6 -2,

11:35

233, 223, all the traits

11:37

that you look for quarterback,

11:39

deep ball proficiency, hits the

11:41

strike zone, works the entire

11:43

field. And then the scheme

11:45

produces easy completions, but his

11:47

arm talent squeezes balls into

11:49

tight windows. Velocity, touch, timing, anticipation

11:52

gets it done, has

11:54

enough athleticism to pick up first downs and

11:56

design quarterback runs and scrambles. NFL coaches

11:58

can feature a wide variety of schemes to

12:00

maximize this talents as a QB1. And

12:02

at the bottom of it, our approximated round

12:04

value. Oh, bottom of the first. OK,

12:06

so you nailed it. So I mean, like

12:08

that's, that's what I had. And so

12:10

it's, it's funny to see that play out,

12:13

but when you read the report and

12:15

then you look at the round value, he

12:17

went exactly where he was supposed to

12:19

go on the board. Okay. Let me ask

12:21

you this then, because I'm off the

12:23

top of the dome. I don't think there's

12:25

another team where there's as much, I

12:27

hate using the term hot seat because I

12:29

think. you know, these are

12:31

families, people who have family, you know, and

12:33

it's not just like there's support staff, the whole

12:36

thing. So you don't ever want to see

12:38

anyone lose their job. The reality of the situation

12:40

is franchises make changes. The thought was the

12:42

Giants were going to make a move with Joe

12:44

Shane or Brian Debal. That didn't happen. But

12:46

Mara comes out and says, we need to win

12:48

right now. Yeah, I don't know if there's

12:50

another team in the NFL in this situation. Right?

12:52

Like the teams that struggled, they already have

12:54

their new head coaches. I don't know if there's

12:56

another organization right now that says their general

12:58

manager and head coach are on the hot seat

13:00

like the Giants are. That's not

13:02

the best way to approach the draft because

13:04

you're thinking, I'm not worried about two seasons

13:06

from now. And most people will tell you

13:09

that's probably the case for every team, but

13:11

it does feel different for this squad. Was

13:14

there a different move to be made

13:16

at trading in at 25 instead and

13:18

just maybe sitting tight or? Just

13:20

going in a different direction because of the

13:23

thought process that comes with having to win this

13:25

season. No, you know, it's

13:27

funny because I would I would give

13:29

this heaven work with Joe Shane. We

13:31

work together in Carolina. And I

13:33

know that Joe's wired the right way when

13:35

it comes to building a team. And what

13:37

they did in the offseason is they set

13:39

themselves up where they didn't have to make

13:41

a rash move at three. to

13:43

fit a need because they went out and

13:45

signed Russell Wilson and James Winston. They

13:47

felt like if they had to put

13:49

the ball down today, they could play with

13:51

a starting quarterback and have enough talent

13:53

in the quarterback room to win. That freed

13:55

them up to take the best player

13:57

available at three and Abdul Carter. And then

13:59

when they made that move at three,

14:01

I am sure as soon as they handed

14:03

in the card, they started making sure

14:05

they worked the phones to see when could

14:07

we potentially get back in. And if

14:10

we are getting back in. What

14:12

are the names that we would get back into

14:14

the first round with? Because it couldn't just be

14:16

Dax and Dart as the only quarterback that they

14:18

would move in because look he could have been

14:20

gone at any spot. Were they

14:22

multiple names and what were those names? Was

14:24

it Dax and Dart, Chidura Sanders, and Tyler Shut?

14:26

Was it Dax and Dart, Tyler Shut? They

14:28

had to be comfortable with multiple quarterbacks to be

14:30

able to get back in in the first

14:32

round and say, hey, we're good. We'll get our

14:34

quarterback of the future at the bottom of

14:36

round one. Yeah, it's it's wild to me when

14:39

I think about the direction of this organization

14:41

over the next couple of years. And I hate

14:43

to play in the world of hypotheticals, but

14:45

had some games not necessarily gone their way late

14:47

in the season, they might not have picked

14:49

picking at number three. I

14:51

think. I hate to

14:53

say it this way, but like, even if they were

14:55

picking at two, I don't know. I think Abdul Carter

14:57

might still have been the selection for him. Look,

14:59

I think you make a reasonable

15:01

assessment or prediction that that would

15:04

have been. to pick like Abdul

15:06

Carter is a dominant player. And when I look at

15:08

the board and I look at the players that

15:10

were available in this job, Travis Hunter was one for

15:12

me, Abdul Carter was two. They

15:14

were comfortable taking either one of those guys

15:16

and they would have been fine. Abdul Carter

15:18

works, it fits the brand. And

15:21

so like, I love it.

15:23

Now, ultimately, both the guys have

15:25

to play really well. So Abdul Carter is the

15:27

one who has the, I would say, the most

15:29

pressure because he's a top five pick. He has

15:31

to play like that right away. You think about

15:33

K Von Tipper, though, who's number five overall pick.

15:35

He hasn't necessarily played like that. They need both

15:37

of their top five picks to play like that

15:39

because you have a level of expectation. And

15:41

Jackson Dart, fans will have an expectation

15:43

of what the quarterback should be, but

15:45

he was taken at the bottom of

15:47

the first round. There should be time

15:49

given and grace given to him before

15:52

he becomes a starting quarterback. And look,

15:54

Russell Wilson, James Winston, they're there to really.

15:56

kind of hold it down until Jackson

15:58

Dart is ready to be able to

16:00

do it. Yeah, you say that, and

16:02

yet off air, well, we were having conversations

16:04

about the city of New York. You

16:06

know every city's not treated the same

16:08

way. I mean, it's like, did I

16:10

go treat it like? No, man. No, like,

16:12

when Jackson Dart was drafted in the

16:14

first round, away we go. Poor Tommy

16:16

Cutlets. It's like he. The video ain't

16:18

going anywhere. just

16:21

a staple here. Come on, but like Jackson

16:23

Dart. the clock is on like

16:25

now all the conversation throughout training camp is going

16:27

to be when Jackson are going to be

16:29

ready to play. And so Russell and James Winston

16:31

have to give the coaching staff and the

16:33

fans enough to kind of stave them off like

16:35

no we have a plan. We

16:37

have a plan for him but here's

16:39

the tricky thing. Can Brian Debal

16:41

and Joe Shane win enough to get

16:43

to the other side where they

16:45

can see Jackson Dart next year as

16:48

the starting quarterback. They have to

16:50

win enough games to kind of keep.

16:52

everyone at Bay to be able to do

16:54

it unless the ownership is saying, no,

16:56

no, no, you good. You got this year.

16:59

Regardless of the record, then we get

17:01

an extra. But I don't know of New

17:03

York having enough patience to sit through

17:05

another disappointing year from the Giants. No, I

17:07

mean, you think about all that media

17:09

and the lens that's there. And look, that's

17:11

home for me. I grew up there.

17:13

So you're talking about two all sports stations,

17:15

two regional sports television networks. It

17:17

is all eyes on the spot. And and

17:19

take it a step further here. The Jets don't

17:21

have Aaron Rodgers anymore. So that story is

17:23

now gone. They're punting on that. The Justin Fields

17:25

could be a great doesn't have as much

17:27

noise as the John. Let's be honest. Giants,

17:29

the Giants on the Apple, like

17:31

they're the staple, the franchise, they're, I

17:33

mean, they're the squad, so everyone

17:36

is going to look to them. Now,

17:38

just like everyone looks to the

17:40

Giants, I'm looking at the rest of

17:42

the top 10, Will Campbell

17:44

goes forward to the Patriots, Mason Graham,

17:46

Cleveland at five, Aston Gentie

17:48

to the Raiders at six, Amon Mimbu

17:50

to the Jazz at seven, Ted

17:52

McMillan at eight, Kelvin Banks Jr. to

17:54

the Saints at nine, and then

17:56

Colston Loveland at 10. of the picks,

17:58

and I'll let you go after

18:01

me. Sure. Number six, Aston Gentie

18:03

to the Raiders was the one that stood out. And

18:05

it stood out because we know Pete Carroll. You were

18:07

on the West Coast when Pete Carroll was doing his

18:09

thing. He's

18:11

always had running backs when his

18:13

programs have operated at their best.

18:15

And go back to like Essie,

18:17

Lindale White, and Reggie Bush. See,

18:20

I'll see you all, because it was about March on Lynch. You

18:22

just had to know that the Raiders on the

18:24

Pete Carroll. they're going to have a

18:26

blue chip running back. So I knew that

18:28

was coming, but it still stood out the day

18:30

we were able to get them. Totally. And

18:32

I say this because you know how excited I

18:35

was. This is my first year having a

18:37

high school vote. Genty, it was. hard

18:39

for me not to pick Ash and Gentie

18:41

as the leader. And when you do the

18:43

rankings, it's one, two, and three. And, you

18:45

know, for me, it ended up being obviously

18:47

Travis Hunter because of the special nature. But

18:49

Gentie, the numbers alone speak for themselves. The

18:51

impact that he had, we were doing our

18:53

draft show with Lance Irlin, who talked about

18:55

a weak offensive line and yet still, you

18:57

know, historic type numbers from Gentie. You know,

18:59

for me, Carolina at eight, I talked to

19:01

a buddy of mine who's around that team

19:03

a whole lot. And I said, Hey, what

19:05

direction do they go? Because I felt like

19:07

there was going to be a team that

19:09

looked at the eighth position and said, that's

19:11

the trade spot. I want to get ahead

19:13

of it. I want to get ahead of

19:16

what the New Orleans Saints might do at

19:18

number nine, which clearly wasn't the case because

19:20

they took Kelvin Banks. I thought maybe the

19:22

Steelers might be one of those teams. That

19:24

didn't happen. And I asked him, I say,

19:26

hey, what direction? He goes, look, there's some

19:28

needs that are here. But I would be

19:30

shocked if there's not another piece around Bryce

19:32

Young because the reclamation process that we saw

19:34

even in one year for Bryce was pretty,

19:36

pretty spectacular. And Look, they drafted Leggette. That's

19:38

been OK for them. I don't

19:40

know. I think it became abundantly clear it was

19:42

going to be wide receiver. We just didn't

19:44

know which one it was. And the fact that

19:46

it was an explosive guy like T. Mac,

19:48

who once again was was terrific playing at Arizona.

19:51

Not a huge surprise for me. Not

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for 40 % off. Terms apply. The

20:51

40s and free agents podcast with Daniel

20:54

Jeremiah and Greg Rosenthal has prepared you

20:56

for the 2025 NFL draft. We've told

20:58

you what last year's playoff teams need

21:00

to return to the postseason. And how

21:02

teams with new coaches should approach the

21:04

draft. So as draft season comes to

21:06

a close, we've got you covered before

21:08

your favorite team goes on the clock.

21:11

We'll break it all down once all

21:13

257 picks have been made. Listen to

21:15

the 40s and free agents podcast on

21:17

the I heart radio app Apple podcasts

21:19

or wherever you get your podcasts picks

21:27

11 to 20. Mikhail Williams

21:29

to San Francisco 49ers, Tyler Booker,

21:32

Dallas Cowboys, Kenneth Grant, Miami

21:34

Dolphins, Tyler Warren in Indianapolis Coast,

21:36

Jalen Walker, Atlanta Falcons,

21:38

Walter Nolan, Arizona Cardinals,

21:40

Shamar Stewart, Cincinnati Bengals, Grace

21:42

Zabel, Seattle Seahawks, Emeka Obuka,

21:44

19 to Zambia Buccaneers, and

21:46

then Jedi Baron going to

21:48

the Denver Broncos. When

21:50

I look at that list, the one

21:53

that stands out to me in terms of the

21:55

best pick, best fit, Tyler Booker going

21:57

to the Dallas Cowboys. The Dallas

21:59

Cowboys, the offensive line, they lose Zach

22:01

Martin. Last couple of

22:03

years, they're trying to kind of piecemeal this

22:05

offensive line, kind of get it back and

22:07

going. They've really invested in that. And to

22:09

me, Tyler Booker is the

22:11

final piece of the puzzle on that

22:13

offensive line. Replacing a legend in Zach

22:15

Martin is going to be tough. But

22:17

when we think about what this team

22:20

wants to be under Brian Schadenheimer, a

22:22

rough and rugged, a physical team that

22:24

can run the football. Tyler Booker

22:26

fits the bill. I mean, he moves

22:28

people off the ball. He is physical. He's

22:30

nasty. He's a tempo setter. And I

22:32

just think he fits in with how they

22:34

want to play. I would expect them

22:36

to be a very physical team at the

22:38

point of attack. And that's going to

22:40

not only help. then find their running game

22:42

is going to take a lot of

22:44

pressure up that press. No more excuses for

22:46

the Dallas Cowboys. Three consecutive years. Look

22:49

at this offensive line, man. We every

22:51

single year, Buck, and you and I do

22:53

enough shows together on NFL Network where

22:55

I go, what's going on with this Dallas

22:57

Cowboys team? And we both know when

22:59

they were rocking in the 90s, it wasn't

23:01

just because of Emmett Smith and Irv

23:03

and Troy Aikman. You look at those bad

23:05

boys up front and allowing a guy

23:07

like Emmett to do the damage that he's

23:09

done. We have talked about the. the

23:11

issues that they've had on offensive line for

23:13

a few seasons now. Tyler Guyton, Tyler

23:15

Smith, Tyler Booker, it's three consecutive years of

23:17

three first round offensive linemen. No more

23:19

excuses. This has got to be the year

23:21

for this team to thrive. And I

23:23

wasn't surprised that they went there. I thought

23:25

it could be running back. In fact,

23:27

I thought Hampton could be the guy, the

23:29

player that I know you kept close

23:31

eyes on because of your North Carolina ties

23:33

there. The only other team that I would

23:35

throw and maybe sandwich this year, Jalen Walker,

23:38

who would land a foul, because at 15,

23:40

I thought was a spectacular pick because it's a

23:42

really good player and a position of need

23:44

for it. And they obviously doubled down, which we

23:46

can talk about coming up in just a

23:48

couple of minutes. But Tampa Bay, I loved your

23:50

assessment. of Ibuka because I don't know what

23:52

you do in that wide receiver room, but you

23:54

highlighted this, you know, pretty well. It got

23:56

another year for Mike Evans and then who kind

23:58

of knows what happens, but it's an embarrassment

24:01

of riches in that wide receiver room. Embarrassment of

24:03

riches and this is Jason Light and Ty

24:05

Bowles making sure that Baker Mayfield has what he

24:07

needs to be successful. Emeka

24:09

Ibuka coming in being the number

24:11

three receiver alongside. Chris Godwin and

24:13

Mike Evans. I mean, just a

24:15

big physical wide receiver room. And

24:17

for a undersized quarterback, it expands

24:19

the strike zone. It makes it

24:21

easy. But it also creates a

24:23

succession plan in case Mike Evans

24:25

moves on after this year. And

24:27

if he stays, man, who

24:30

better to learn from than a guy

24:32

who's been a perennial pro bowler, another guy

24:34

who's an outstanding playmaker and Chris Godwin.

24:36

I just think it makes so much sense.

24:38

And when I look at him at

24:40

a book, he's a pro man. He is

24:42

a pro. You see it. He is

24:44

polished. He's seasoned. He has it. To

24:46

me, it's just a nice fit for

24:49

what they want offensively to do and

24:51

how they want to do it. And

24:53

then 20th pick, the Denver Broncos taking

24:55

Jada Baron. We talked about running back.

24:57

I mean, Sean Payton talked about running

24:59

back. So we all were kind of

25:01

waiting for the runner back to go,

25:03

but them taking. Look,

25:05

man, one of the best. defensive players

25:08

that we've seen in the class

25:10

and Arguably like people say like the

25:12

best corner because he can do

25:14

so much jump -thorporal work. Yeah, yeah

25:16

versatile instincts awareness toughness I just like

25:18

putting him Beside pats or tan

25:20

and being able to do so many

25:23

things in a secondary I throw

25:25

one your way. Yeah, I'd love to

25:27

know how Scouts front

25:29

offices look at FCS players on the

25:31

offensive line and I bring this up because

25:33

Gray Zabel goes to Seattle at 18

25:35

North Dakota State Kid You and I were

25:37

getting together for the East West Rhyme

25:39

Bowl. I told the story Tim Polasek who's

25:41

got that offensive line mentality I mean

25:43

the guy must have dropped more F -bombs

25:46

in a 15th conversation when I was when

25:48

I was asking him about his quarterback

25:50

than anything But he wanted to talk about

25:52

oh lie told me a lot about

25:54

Zabel why he was gonna be a next

25:56

level player I do think a little

25:58

bit about Trevor Penning as another one that

26:00

maybe hasn't lived up to the hype.

26:02

How do you go to them? Go to

26:04

the mat on a guy that you

26:06

scouted when it's it's not power for football.

26:08

It's not the SEC. And yet clearly

26:10

that didn't scare Seattle. It didn't. And it's

26:12

funny because John Snyder was look, he

26:15

learned under Ron Wolf, Ron Wolf, Hall of

26:17

Fame executive Green Bay Packers, longtime general

26:19

manager. And Ron Wolf was not

26:21

a small school fan. He wanted to see

26:23

guys come from big schools because guys

26:25

with big schools and winning pre degrees. understand

26:27

what it's like and they're more likely

26:29

to transition very quickly into the National Football

26:31

League. But when you do take a

26:33

small school standard, and I remember having this

26:35

conversation with Ron, I called him

26:37

and it was when I was scouting

26:40

Vincent Jackson, who was at Northern Colorado. And

26:42

I asked him, what did you see

26:44

from Terrell Owens when Terrell Owens was

26:46

at UT Chattanooga? He said, when you

26:48

look at that small school standouts, do

26:50

they dominate their level of competition? And

26:52

when they have opportunities to play or

26:54

level up, how do they perform? The

26:56

thing that probably convinced the Seattle Seahawks

26:58

on Gray's able his performance at the

27:00

senior ball on top of his tape

27:02

at North Dakota State. He

27:05

held his own and dominated the time in

27:07

the senior ball, which gave them confidence

27:09

that it may take some time, but he

27:11

has the stuff to be able to

27:13

be a successful pro at the level. Is

27:15

there a position group that you guys

27:17

would consider? at

27:19

an FCS level that was maybe stronger, because

27:21

once again, this is a big boy up

27:23

front versus, and you just name checked a

27:25

couple wide receivers. Yeah, I mean, look, I

27:27

think it comes down to the same thing.

27:29

Like, how do they play when they have

27:31

to play against the competition that they will

27:33

see at the NFL level? Can you see

27:35

them at an all -star game? When they

27:37

are at an all -star game, do they hold

27:39

down? Do they look out of place? If

27:41

they don't look out of place, well, man,

27:43

how competitive are they with some of the

27:45

best of the best? And the thing that

27:47

you saw in the tape on Grace Zabel

27:49

at the game, He not only held his

27:51

own, but he won plenty of reps against

27:53

top competition, which made it difficult. When you

27:55

take someone in the middle of the first

27:57

round from a small school, you're saying, oh,

27:59

no, no, this guy's going to come in

28:01

and play, play right away and his position,

28:03

flexibility. gives you a few

28:05

options in terms of trying to put him

28:08

in a place where he can be

28:10

most successful. That should help him succeed. Yeah,

28:12

no, I'm with you there. And once

28:14

again, I just think it's fascinating. A remade

28:16

Seattle team, when you consider Sam Darnold

28:18

is now in the fold, a wide receiver

28:20

room that looks like a shell of

28:22

nothing. It's essentially brand new. And yet with

28:24

their first pick in round number one,

28:26

it's an FCS player. Yeah, look, it's very

28:28

interesting. But you know what also was

28:30

interesting? The Pittsburgh Steelers at 21 taking Derek

28:32

Horman, Amari Hampton going

28:34

22 to the LA Charges, Matthew

28:36

Golden going to the Packers at

28:38

23, Donovan Jackson to the Minnesota

28:40

Vikings. Giants taking Jackson Dart, Lanna

28:43

Falcons taking James Pierce Jr. at

28:45

26, Malachi Starks going 27 to

28:47

the Ravens, Tyler Lee Williams coming off

28:49

the board at 28 to the Detroit Lions,

28:51

Josh Connolly 29 to the Commanders, Maxwell

28:53

Hairston going to the Buffalo Bills at 30

28:55

and then we're finished off, Jai Campbell

28:57

going to the Eagles at 31 and Josh

28:59

Simmons at 32 to the Kansas City

29:02

Chiefs. And I'm to say this because I

29:04

had a little egg on my face. Matthew

29:07

Golden breaking the the streak the

29:09

Green Bay Packers took a wide

29:11

receiver 23 overall first time since

29:13

2002 that they have taken a

29:15

wide receiver in the first round

29:17

You already had the end deal

29:19

you baited me into it. So

29:21

I led you right there and

29:23

he goes I am surprised But

29:25

then I'm not only because when

29:27

you pay Jordan love the kind

29:29

of money that they paid him

29:31

you want to make sure that

29:33

he has success Josh

29:35

Jacobs said, man, we need a number one

29:37

receiver. We need a guy. And for your

29:39

starting running back, we ran for over 1300

29:42

yards to say that we need a number

29:44

one receiver. It means that he feels the

29:46

impact of not having that either the box

29:48

is clouded, the offense doesn't go. It's just

29:50

a little different. He needs more room and

29:52

he knows what a number one receiver would

29:54

do for him. And so him calling out

29:56

for a number one receiver. Maybe the front

29:58

office listened, and they decided that Matthew Golden

30:00

was going to be the guy. Kind of

30:02

weird, man. They listened to him. But listen,

30:05

Roger is kind of jumping up and down

30:07

for a couple of seasons, hoping to get

30:09

one of these players. One

30:11

observation here, and I'm going to steal with something

30:13

that David Carr had told me. Because at

30:15

the end of the season, DC and I were

30:17

talking. I said, hey man, Green Bay is a

30:19

really good team. That's so close. This

30:22

is a young receiver room. Last year, it

30:24

was first and second year players that were there.

30:27

contributors they go again in round number one and

30:29

they take a wide not again they do it

30:31

for the first time since 2002 but they double

30:33

down in terms of trying to add some weapons

30:35

there said DC like what do they need and

30:37

he said the one thing that I would point

30:39

to is is a guy that could

30:41

take it over the top. Like who's that speedster?

30:43

Who can stretch the defenses? Who can get you

30:45

really those big explosive plays? And Matthew Golden seems

30:47

to be able to check that box just based

30:50

off of the speed level. And I

30:52

know, obviously, you got to watch a ton

30:54

of him at Texas. It did feel like when

30:56

they needed a big play, he was the

30:58

obvious target. And that was really apparent when you

31:00

watched him to play off when they needed

31:02

to play. They went to him and look, there

31:04

was another decorated player opposite of Isaiah Bond.

31:06

But when it came down to it, the ball

31:08

went to Matthew Golden and the fact that

31:10

he went from huge. Houston to Texas and kind

31:12

of swiped the number one role from others. That

31:15

speaks volumes about his play. Now,

31:17

someone else, and we were talking about

31:19

the Atlanta Falcons trading. They

31:21

got Jalen Walker at 15, but James

31:24

Pierce at 26. You talked about the

31:26

Falcons liking their moves. What was it

31:28

about these power moves that you love?

31:30

The fact that this has been a team.

31:32

so deficient at creating pressure on, on quarterbacks.

31:34

I was fortunate enough to be down in

31:36

Atlanta in August for training camp. And you

31:38

talk to the fans down there, you talk

31:41

to their coaching staff. Terry Faut know is

31:43

one of our guests and it was abundantly

31:45

clear. Hey, like we need to be better

31:47

on the defensive side. They were 31st in

31:49

the NFL in sacks a season ago. I

31:51

don't think it was much better two seasons

31:53

ago. And yet it didn't get better last

31:55

season. And I think what's fascinating is they

31:57

took a page out of what the Eagles

31:59

did year ago and say, Hey, we got

32:01

some questions on this. We're going to double

32:03

dip. We're going to take two guys in

32:05

round number one. I think the Falcons were

32:07

ridiculously aggressive. I love that. They were aggressive

32:09

last year in a different regard by taking

32:11

Michael Penix when they did. And then this

32:13

year, they said, you know what? We're not

32:16

going to have that excuse. In a division

32:18

that is gettable right now, they got to

32:20

feel Penix Kimball. We feel good about him

32:22

being a missing piece. And if we're remotely

32:24

better on the defensive side, maybe that's enough

32:26

to really push a Tampa Bay squad. They

32:28

are all in. They made an aggressive move

32:30

a year ago when they got Michael Pennings, where

32:32

they had Kirk Cousins already in the building.

32:34

The Inc hadn't even dried on this contract and

32:37

they go and get a number one pick.

32:39

And in this year, Terry Finder goes doubles down,

32:41

very aggressively go and get James Pennings to pair

32:43

him with Jalen Walker. And we can say

32:45

a lot of things about what they have, but

32:48

now they have two guys that can get

32:50

after the passer, albeit in different ways. Jalen Walker

32:52

being a hybrid linebacker can play inside, off

32:54

ball, but then come down and come off the

32:56

edge, which should make him a really intriguing

32:59

and impressive blitzer. And

33:01

then James Pierce, who can line

33:03

up, come off the edge and win

33:05

with speed and just explosiveness. It's to

33:07

be fun to watch this Salina Falcon

33:09

team kind of get it together. And

33:12

one thing that you have to understand

33:14

when you're a team builder, you're building

33:16

your team to also play in your

33:18

stadium. So these two fast guys playing

33:20

on a turf is Mercedes Benz. Dome,

33:22

whatever we call it, but being able

33:24

to get off that, that that should

33:26

certainly help them. And I want to

33:29

go to pick right after Pierce comes

33:31

off the boards. Malachi starts going to

33:33

the Baltimore Ravens. The Ravens for years

33:35

have traditionally drafted just really good

33:37

footballs at football players at all levels

33:39

of the draft. And Starks been

33:41

a high IQ player, a guy that's a combo safety man.

33:43

He can play in the box and play in the

33:45

deep middle. A guy who really

33:47

compliments Cal Hamilton well. And

33:50

man, look, I know they had gotten

33:52

good play from Adaris Washington, but for

33:54

two first round safeties, that secondary is

33:56

going to get back to playing the

33:58

way that they played when they played

34:00

really good defense in the past. Where

34:02

did you have Starks going? Is this

34:04

the right range? I only asked because

34:06

a couple of years ago, Kyle Hamilton,

34:09

we didn't talk about, I don't remember

34:11

the exact number. 14, 14. But

34:14

he was, look, he was rated as a top

34:16

five player the draft class, goes to the combine,

34:18

doesn't run faster than. As we're

34:20

prone to do, we overthink it. And

34:22

very similar to Malakas Starks. He

34:24

was the number one safety heading into the combine.

34:27

Nick Eminwari had a great combine

34:29

and kind of stole Starks' thunder

34:31

because he was so impressive as

34:34

a 6 -4 athlete and those things.

34:36

But the Ravens, because I know

34:38

this, they put

34:40

their pencils down before they get to the combine.

34:42

Their grades and stuff are all in. They're

34:44

done with the process before they get to the

34:46

combine. So they're not swayed by the workouts. their

34:49

grades and their things are done off

34:51

the tape. And off the tape,

34:53

Mallika Starks was an impressive player. Not

34:55

only last season, but the season before,

34:57

you saw a ton of plays, a

34:59

ton of reactions and instincts and big

35:01

plays. And that's why at 27, he

35:03

was the right fit for them. Yeah,

35:05

the rich get richer. I've been saying

35:07

this for two seasons now that the

35:09

Baltimore Ravens have the best roster in

35:11

the NFL that hasn't culminated into a

35:13

Super Bowl championship a couple of years

35:15

ago. Obviously got close. It was the

35:17

Kansas City Chiefs beating them. in Baltimore

35:19

and even being in Baltimore in August,

35:22

you could feel that in the conversations

35:24

with the players. They were referencing that

35:26

and then they got better somehow and

35:28

Derek Henry comes aboard and they're rolling.

35:30

Zay Flowers has a breakout season and

35:32

yet once again falling just short. I

35:34

just wonder if a piece like this

35:36

gets them this much closer because I

35:38

still think it comes down to how

35:40

do you learn from some of your losses?

35:42

Because you can't even, you can't point at

35:44

the roster buck. Like - They gotta make

35:46

plays. Like they gotta make plays.

35:48

Their thing has little to do with the

35:51

talent and more to do with the -

35:53

Execution the effort is there the execution

35:55

has to be better in those key moments

35:57

last pick that I want to talk

35:59

about John Campbell going to the failure of

36:01

Eagles another example of Howie Roseman doing

36:03

what Howie Roseman does he's not a great

36:05

to he's not afraid to move up

36:07

even though it was just flipping a spot

36:09

to go and get a linebacker and

36:11

you got to remember the Eagles never Go

36:13

after the linebackers. It was a position

36:16

that they didn't value in their model whether

36:18

it's their analytics or just of philosophical

36:20

standpoint. They didn't really see a lot of

36:22

value in getting linebackers high, but lo

36:24

and behold, Jahai Campbell is

36:26

the pick. And maybe I'll say this, he

36:29

was the pick for them because not only is

36:31

the off ball linebacker, but because he's so effective

36:33

coming off the edge, that is the

36:35

only way they could have said it. Vic Fangio had to be

36:37

and how he rose from his ear saying, no, no, no, I'm

36:39

telling you, if we get him in, we can do these

36:41

things with him. He can be effective, really

36:43

intriguing, an enticing pick. for the Philadelphia Eagles.

36:45

All right, kind of throw something your way

36:47

on day two. Okay, we go. I'm

36:50

not going to ask you when Shaddur

36:52

Sanders gets drafted. I'm going to ask

36:54

you, does Tyler, Shucker, Jail and Millroll

36:56

go ahead of Shaddur? They

36:58

shouldn't, but now I'm nervous. I didn't

37:00

think Jackson Dart would go. When

37:03

I look at the board, I'm

37:05

saying you got the Browns right away at

37:07

33. And then I think you have the

37:09

Raiders at 36 or 37. To

37:12

me, Shaddur Sanders to

37:14

the Raiders. would

37:16

be the best pick. And the reason

37:18

why is the comparison for me,

37:20

which you're saying is would be either

37:22

Jerry Goff or Geno Smith. And

37:24

so if you get him and you put him

37:26

behind him, and look, I know people will be

37:28

like, whoa, they got to back up quarterback and

37:30

Aiden O 'Connell and those things, I hear that.

37:32

But I just think the relationship, Tom Brady, look,

37:34

it's overblown a little bit, even Shadoor told me

37:37

that. But Tom Brady being there, Tom

37:39

Brady kind of knowing what he's about, being able

37:41

to learn it, to me, it would

37:43

fit. I'm not saying that Cleveland wouldn't be

37:45

fit, but man, if I could pick it

37:47

for him, I would pick the Raiders. It's

37:49

going to be wild here because I think

37:51

there's got to be some concerns injury -wise for

37:53

Tyler Shuck. I've made this reference

37:55

before. I got to see him a ton when he

37:57

was at Oregon. Yeah, it feels

37:59

like he's a step away from collecting social security.

38:01

He's been around for so long. But I

38:03

know all the reports coming out of the senior

38:05

bowl was he's impressive. I look at those

38:07

traits though for Jalen Milrow. I remember the first

38:09

time I watched him in a game, I'm

38:11

like, damn, like this dude is just he's so

38:14

different out there. And that's where

38:16

I start to hedge a little bit and

38:18

go, hey, which quarterback is it going to be

38:20

that's going to hear his name called next?

38:22

And maybe it's Sanders, or maybe it's one of

38:24

those other players. Look, it should

38:26

be fascinating to watch. That was

38:28

this week's Hot or Not, a segment brought

38:30

to you by Wasabi, How Cloud Storage. Store

38:32

more and do more with

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your data. Try them for free

38:37

at wasabi.com. Yeah, this was

38:39

fun. Oh, yeah, man. I appreciate the invite.

38:41

We spent four hours doing the driving. We

38:43

spent a little extra time. doing a

38:45

podcast, we got to get you on the podcast

38:47

again. Yeah, man. We went over time on this one

38:49

and then it's me and you the rest of

38:51

the way on day two and day three. Day three

38:53

on Saturday, you're going to be ready to kill

38:56

me. I promise. Maybe I got your coffee because I

38:58

know that's important. I know this. We're going to

39:00

have to have some runners or whatever. We went to

39:02

the whole first round without having runners bringing coffee

39:04

and treats and all that. When we

39:06

go rounds four through seven, some people are

39:08

going to have to get on the move. We're

39:10

to have to get a Starbucks to kind of.

39:12

All right, I shouldn't even drop that. But the

39:14

coffee place with the little green insignia and some

39:16

we're going to need them to kind of drop

39:18

coffee. Can I just look for people who don't

39:21

know. But Buck and I love our caffeine. We've

39:23

traveled on the road before. He

39:25

says that I'm picky. I drink cold brew

39:27

black. This dude comes in. I'll never forget

39:29

this. And you'll never be able to say

39:32

anything to me. Your Starbucks

39:34

cup said. They

39:36

they're already they already are made.

39:38

Those are premade comments on those things.

39:40

But look, this was a lot

39:42

of fun. Thanks for coming on mood

39:45

sticks, Yammer. Guys, make sure

39:47

you tune in tomorrow night. We have another

39:49

podcast at the rounds two and three

39:51

day two of the draft until then we'll

39:53

talk to you. The

40:05

40s and free agents podcast with Daniel

40:07

Jeremiah and Greg Rosenthal has prepared you

40:10

for the 2025 NFL draft. We've told

40:12

you what last year's playoff teams need

40:14

to return to the postseason. And how

40:16

teams with new coaches should approach the

40:18

draft. So So as draft season comes

40:20

to a close, we've got you covered

40:23

before your favorite team goes on the

40:25

clock. We'll break it all down once

40:27

all 257 picks have been made. Listen

40:29

to the 40s and free agents on

40:31

the iHeart radio app, Apple podcast wherever

40:33

you get your podcasts.