0:00

We had finally cracked what most people

0:02

will never be able to do is

0:04

a monetisation on their podcast. Welcome back

0:06

to No Bologs with me, Matt Haycox.

0:09

Now, let me ask you this. What

0:11

if you could turn your conversations into

0:13

cash? That is exactly what people try

0:16

to do with a podcast? Which sounds

0:18

great, right? But 99% of people are

0:20

doing it wrong. Because they launch the

0:23

podcast, they throw out some content and

0:25

they just hope for the best. It

0:27

is a big mistake. and CEO of

0:30

Voicz, which is a media powerhouse and

0:32

podcast agency, and he is cracking the

0:34

code to actually grow, monetize, and dominate

0:36

in this podcast space. And here's the

0:38

thing, he didn't start with a media

0:41

empire. He wasn't even from a media

0:43

background. He went from running nightclub events

0:45

and selling vintage clothing to working in

0:47

FinTech and then launching a business that

0:49

is now helping top entrepreneurs scale their

0:52

content into serious cash. So today, we're

0:54

going to be breaking down. Why did

0:56

most people fail at podcasting? a small

0:58

audience into big money and that is a

1:00

great thing to talk about because so many people

1:03

worry about needing a massive audience but you just

1:05

don't. If you've got the right audience it doesn't

1:07

matter how small it is it can be a

1:09

big big payday and we're going to talk about

1:11

the future of content media and why you're already

1:13

behind if you're not building your brand. So if

1:16

you think podcasts are just for fun you are

1:18

leaving serious money on the table. By the end

1:20

of this episode you are going to know exactly

1:22

how to turn your voice into your voice into

1:24

your biggest asset. Guys

1:29

Matt Hacocks here and welcome to another

1:31

episode of No Bologs with me Matt

1:33

Hacocks I've never got a laugh so

1:35

really so it's so early in the

1:37

show I am on location in Bali

1:39

in the beautiful house of our next

1:41

guest who is at very kindly lent

1:43

his podcast studio and his house and

1:46

his time I've got Darren Lee with

1:48

me or Darren Lee's got me with

1:50

him Darren Lee's got me with him

1:52

Darren is is a great guy who

1:54

I only actually just met over the

1:56

last week or two, but he is

1:58

a podcast host himself. is the founder

2:00

and the CEO of Voice which is a

2:02

media company, podcast agency, education company, you'll tell

2:05

us more about that soon but Darren thanks

2:07

a lot for being here. Man I appreciate

2:09

you. You came to our event, you've been

2:11

smashing us in, you've been a good relationship

2:13

man, I've loved what you've been doing and

2:16

I'm actually learning a lot from you and

2:18

I've already been implementing ever, you've been teaching

2:20

me man so like it works always. Thank

2:22

you. I think you know what I was

2:25

thinking before I was thinking before I came

2:27

today before I came today as well as

2:29

well as well as well as well as

2:31

well as well as well as just the

2:34

fact that. a lesson for people in the

2:36

power of just saying yes and of just

2:38

reaching out. I mean this all happened completely

2:40

by accident, you know, we didn't know each

2:43

other a couple of weeks ago and I'd

2:45

done a podcast with the with Dakota, Robertson,

2:47

his name, Dakota Robertson, who again I didn't

2:49

know Dakota, but I just happened to have

2:51

seen a piece of his content because it

2:54

had popped up on somebody's newsletter, looked on

2:56

his YouTube, thought oh he looks good, he'd

2:58

be a good guest to have, you know,

3:00

so I just dropped him dropped him a

3:03

DM. He happened to respond, he could have

3:05

not responded, but he happened to respond to,

3:07

oh, you're in Dubai, I'll be coming to

3:09

Dubai, let's do a podcast. When we've done

3:12

that, I look on his Instagram, see you,

3:14

you were in Bali, I was coming to

3:16

Bali, you had the podcast mastermind on, I

3:18

think, you know, I could find an excuse

3:20

why not to come, but I think, well,

3:23

fuck it, I'm in Bali. Let's do it,

3:25

you know, just say yes, I've come, I've

3:27

met you, I've met other great people, you

3:29

know, I've got a couple of other podcasts

3:32

booked in, you're going to introduce me to

3:34

people, which undoubtedly is going to be another

3:36

knock on another knock on, another knock on,

3:38

and, you know, the future relationships that will

3:41

come for me out of just that. that

3:43

one DM to Dakota will be astronomical and

3:45

you know people people really overcomplicate networking and

3:47

connections and you know how do I get

3:50

from A to B and how do I

3:52

meet this person but it actually really is

3:54

very simple you just got I guess you

3:56

just got to throw the crumbs out there

3:58

and say yes and ask. And the thing

4:01

is that's the butterfly effect right? We think

4:03

that what we do does... doesn't really have

4:05

much significance. We're like, oh, you know, it's

4:07

just another DM. It's just a message. Whereas

4:10

that DM actually starts the journey. You would

4:12

decode it initially. You would other guests. You

4:14

even come in here. And even when you

4:16

message me, you're like, look, I'm not a

4:19

fucking beginner. And I was like, trust me.

4:21

There's going to be something in there that

4:23

we can help you with. You can help

4:25

me with. And it works both ways. Whereas,

4:28

like, you're from the UK. You're from the

4:30

UK. You're from the UK. You're from the

4:32

UK. how many people in Ireland in the

4:34

UK have like a limited mindset or in

4:36

that, which is like, ah, I can never

4:39

fucking learn from Matt, Darren's like too young

4:41

to learn from, or something I often hear

4:43

as well, right, where it's like you can

4:45

literally learn from anyone, and it starts a

4:48

journey, right? The reason why I'm so big

4:50

on like podcasting, even like our events and

4:52

everything is just because of the fact that

4:54

you don't know what it's gonna do for

4:57

you, and like that's the beauty of it.

4:59

But that keeps so much cheaper out of

5:01

the game. Because I think, well, where's my

5:03

ROI mad? I can run an ad on

5:05

Facebook and get leads. Where it's like, this

5:08

opens up a whole new different vertical. We

5:10

spent like an hour beforehand talking earlier. And

5:12

that's where the relationship is. You know, that's

5:14

the irony of the situation. And you've done

5:17

this, you know, fucking hundreds of times over,

5:19

and so have I as well. Well I

5:21

think for me two mistakes that people make

5:23

when it comes to learning from people as

5:26

well. One having say too high an expectation

5:28

of how many things are going to learn

5:30

as in let's say if they go to

5:32

an event so well okay this is a

5:35

two day event. What are the 50 different

5:37

things I'm going to learn? Listen, if you

5:39

learn one thing from that event, if you

5:41

meet one person at that event, it's going

5:43

to completely change your life. And this is

5:46

great, if you can meet 50 people or

5:48

learn 50 people, then happy days. But whether

5:50

an event costs 2K, 5K, 10K, if it's

5:52

the right event with the right people, that

5:55

one, I mean, you've said a few times

5:57

over the last week, that expression of, you

5:59

know, just one degree, you know, one degree

6:01

off. that one degree and I think that's

6:04

a position of abundance to be in which

6:06

is tough. to get it right? Like you've

6:08

been in the game much longer than me.

6:10

I think I've had like a ton of

6:13

like failed business when I was a kid.

6:15

This one is like on the surface like

6:17

successful whatever you just seemed successful being. But

6:19

we all have like that huge scarcity element

6:21

because in the UK and Ireland you're told

6:24

like not to take the risk right? It's

6:26

not an entrepreneurial country. My wife is American.

6:28

It's in their blood. It's in their nature

6:30

to like drug be driven right and I

6:33

can even tell you a story on this.

6:35

I bought in a program last week that

6:37

was 20,000 dollars and the second I paid

6:39

it I felt like I was kind of

6:42

like nervous right because you're gonna make this

6:44

work. In the onboarding call the guy was

6:46

so kind it was just like a one-to-one

6:48

and I said to him half of truth

6:50

I was like I've literally made the money

6:53

back from just this conversation. Because it's not

6:55

about making the money back, it's about the

6:57

framing of making the money back. Like I

6:59

felt like satisfied, he did a ton of

7:02

different changes for a business, gave us so

7:04

much more help, and that's the power of

7:06

like one investing education, to being open to

7:08

education, right? Because it's not about like the

7:11

core sort of program or like the university

7:13

degree, it's basically what you do with it,

7:15

which is the same with showing up for

7:17

an event. your podcast, even me today, like

7:20

I want to provide so much value for

7:22

you and your audience. Now people are leaving

7:24

and are like, you know what, that podcast

7:26

delivered on what was asked and now I've

7:28

left with one, not 50, one piece of

7:31

information that will set me on my way.

7:33

But I think as long as people are,

7:35

let's say, in business. in some way shape

7:37

or form you that they've got some kind

7:40

of income that they've got some some kind

7:42

of profit profitability for someone who's let's say

7:44

a complete beginner who doesn't even know how

7:46

to form a company or how to pay

7:49

a utility bill you know spending these 10

7:51

ks 20 ks and things on courses you

7:53

know yes a it's daunting and b it's

7:55

potentially almost useless for some of these people

7:58

as well sure but when you when you

8:00

actually are already in business and you've and

8:02

you've already got some kind of products some

8:04

kind of systems systems and stuff can make

8:06

have such, effectively, what's the word, not astronomical,

8:09

not what's the... Exponential. Exponential, such exponential knock-on

8:11

effects that, like you said, whether you spent

8:13

10K, whether you spent 20K, you know, someone

8:15

doesn't need to talk to you for... a

8:18

month a year to get that 20 care

8:20

value one little thing like you know I'm

8:22

sure just talking this morning an hour me

8:24

and you you've said things in there not

8:27

even meaning to that I can you know

8:29

put in the memory bank I think well

8:31

I can go and implement that later or

8:33

that's the way I should be doing something

8:35

differently. Like I say it's just it's having

8:38

that I think humility is the realize that

8:40

I really know nothing and the hunger to

8:42

learn more because and I think this is

8:44

another English thing as well that you know

8:47

what on the one hand we've got the

8:49

scarcity mentality than the other hand we have

8:51

this mentality that thinks that one little piece

8:53

of success is fucking enormous you know but

8:56

particularly particularly in the small towns and you

8:58

know there's so many people who've almost in

9:00

that dangerous territory of making a million or

9:02

making a couple of million. and they think

9:05

that king dangling and that is everything and

9:07

they never never need to learn anymore. And

9:09

it's all my, yeah, I call it a

9:11

dangerous territory because I think, you know, the

9:13

people with 50K and the people with 50

9:16

million, I tend to find infinitely hungrier and

9:18

more and more abundance to use that word

9:20

than the people who've made a couple of

9:22

mill and think that, yeah, you know, I'm

9:25

the king of my small town. They could

9:27

have got into the business for the wrong

9:29

reason, right? Because if they're at that stage,

9:31

or by they're running out of love with

9:34

it, which happens, I think they're getting into

9:36

this space for like the wrong reason. I

9:38

think that's where I always think like, yes,

9:40

you do need to stay fucking hungry. Because

9:43

from two different perspectives, one is the outside,

9:45

which is like the money evaporates, for sure,

9:47

like you will make it, you will spend

9:49

it on tables, girls, parity. travel, like you've

9:51

probably seen that, right? You've probably seen that

9:54

over and over again. But the second thing

9:56

is if you're not enough for the right

9:58

reason, you're just going to fizzle out. And

10:00

the biggest thing that I even see with

10:03

a lot of our clients is that they

10:05

get good success, but they just don't want

10:07

it bad enough, right? And I think an

10:09

interesting frame, and I can speak from Irish

10:12

respective, and there's a floorboard in Ireland. you've

10:14

social welfare, you've all these different welfare payments,

10:16

you can't fall that far. Whereas an American

10:18

context, or maybe for a basin like Dubai,

10:21

or maybe you're based in Asia, if you

10:23

fall man, you keep falling. And I think

10:25

that same attitude can be moved towards the

10:27

upside. Some guys are not that interested in

10:29

what they're doing, and that's when they wanna

10:32

like literally jump ship. And I just spoke

10:34

to a guy that was here yesterday as

10:36

well, in the 60s, in the 70s, Navin

10:38

that you met, that you met at the

10:41

mastermind, at the mastermind, you met at, you

10:43

met at, you met at, you met at

10:45

the mastermind, you know, you know, you know,

10:47

you know, you know, you know, you know,

10:50

you know, you know, you know, you know,

10:52

you know, you know, you know, you know,

10:54

you know, you know, he's on his, he's

10:56

on his, he's on his, he's on his,

10:58

he's on his, he's on Exist! And he

11:01

said the difference is very simple. Some guys

11:03

are generally interested in doing the boring stuff

11:05

repeatedly for a very long period of time

11:07

because they've attached or detached getting soulful and

11:10

getting like super passionate about the vessel that's

11:12

actually making you the money. And it's funny

11:14

right because instead of like doing these, like

11:16

instead of having your cash cow as what

11:19

feeds your enjoyment, why not just have the

11:21

enjoyment feeding into the cash cow? And it's

11:23

a big change, right? It's all positioning, man.

11:25

All framework. Let

11:28

me hit you with a mad stat.

11:30

You are probably not subscribed. Seriously, 58%

11:33

of the people who listen to this

11:35

podcast every single week do not hit

11:37

that subscribe button. That is more than

11:39

half of you. So let's fix this

11:42

right now. The goal here is super

11:44

simple. We grow the podcast, we bring

11:46

in bigger guests, and we give you

11:48

even more no bullshit, actualable insights to

11:50

level up your business and to level

11:53

up your life. Now in business, you

11:55

set smart goals, that's specific. measurable, achievable,

11:57

relevant and time bound. Well here's one

11:59

for... Let's get that 58% down to

12:01

well below 50% in the next three

12:04

months. So please do me a quick

12:06

favour. If this podcast has ever given

12:08

you one good idea, one piece of

12:10

advice that's helped you or helped your

12:12

business, then hit that subscribe button. It

12:15

takes a second, it costs nothing, and

12:17

it means that I can keep bringing

12:19

you even bigger and better guests, giving

12:21

you even bigger and better insights. Go

12:23

on, do it now, I'll wait. Done,

12:26

perfect, great choice, let's grow this together.

12:30

Have you always had this kind of mindset?

12:32

Because again, as you mentioned a couple of

12:35

times, you're from Ireland, from that scarcity, from

12:37

that country of scarcity mentality. And I think,

12:39

how long's voice been around? It's only a

12:41

couple of years or so, right? So three

12:43

years since we did a rebrand. So, and

12:46

prior to that, you were in probably one

12:48

of the most corporate, I'd consider one of

12:50

the most corporate of corporate jobs, you know,

12:52

I mean, working for, yes, a destructive company

12:55

by brand, but you were still probably a

12:57

cog in a wheel in that. Yeah, for

12:59

sure. And I can give a little bit

13:01

overview of this. Like, I've always been entrepreneurial,

13:03

but I never really had the exposure of

13:06

people around me. So no entrepreneurs in my

13:08

family, nothing kind of in that kind of

13:10

context. But growing up in Ireland, you don't

13:12

have, like, there is that, again, lack of

13:15

growth available, okay? So let's give it kind

13:17

of an idea. Grow up super rural, like

13:19

super, super, super rural, like, things like this,

13:21

like, like, heathing in the house, like, very

13:24

lower middle class, I would say, right. And

13:26

to that point that, that made me fucking

13:28

frustrated frustrated. Right, because why is it that

13:30

everything else, everyone else has other things, but

13:32

you from a position of scarcity don't have

13:35

that. And I was like a dyslexic kid,

13:37

I missed a ton of school, I was

13:39

like at the bottom of my school, I

13:41

was told I shouldn't read and write as

13:44

a kid. So for me was sport. So

13:46

sport was the thing that I could have

13:48

that tenx, I believe that ability to like

13:50

go fair. Initially it was... and then it

13:52

was sprinting, 100m sprinting, but for me it

13:55

was like how many Irish guys you see

13:57

on the Olympic track, right? Not that money.

13:59

So it was do I go all in

14:01

athletics, which is basically an amateur sport in

14:04

Ireland, or do I try to go down

14:06

the rugby path and try to go down

14:08

that path, which is a bit more honestly

14:10

predictable. But I was right about the time

14:13

whereby that was getting. It was really blowing

14:15

up in Ireland, like the attraction, the media

14:17

around rugby in particular was getting really big.

14:19

This is probably around 10 years ago now.

14:21

And that's when I blew up my knee

14:24

cap, tore my ACL, dislocated my knee cap,

14:26

like everything is over at that point. And

14:28

when it was over with rugby, it was

14:30

also over with running, because you just can't

14:33

get back to race speed. So at 17,

14:35

that's when I was like, oh my God,

14:37

like I am screwed. Like I am literally

14:39

screwed up because all of my life. because

14:41

I was a sexicid, the limiting beliefs around

14:44

that, wasn't able to study, wasn't able to

14:46

read, wasn't able to write. So I had

14:48

to put all of that focus into education.

14:50

So I scraped my thin, skinning my teeth

14:53

into university. To put things in perspective, I

14:55

got 40% in Irish, Irish now language. And

14:57

if I got 1% less, I wouldn't have

14:59

been accepted into an Irish university. But... That

15:02

was much more of me just like playing

15:04

a game that I could see the numbers

15:06

on the screen and so on. But during

15:08

that point, that's when I started experimenting with

15:10

different ideas. So again, no money, literally no

15:13

idea what I was doing. You're going to

15:15

enjoy this. I was running parties and raves

15:17

when I was 16, 17 years old. I

15:19

started doing mystery tours. You know what that

15:22

is? Mystery to us. Yeah. Have you ever

15:24

heard of it? No. You're going to love

15:26

this. So you hire a bus and you

15:28

sell tickets for the bus? And everyone gets

15:30

on, they pay like $20, $50, $50, $50,

15:33

or let's say. Well, they don't know where

15:35

they're going. And they don't know where they're

15:37

going. So you bring them to like a

15:39

random pub or club in like back, ask,

15:42

nowhere, Ireland. And they're on like a six-hour

15:44

bus. And so. So I was doing that

15:46

for a while, which is obviously like the

15:48

funnest one. It sounds like a scam. Maybe,

15:51

maybe. But basically like you're bringing them on

15:53

like they bring them like nightclubs and everything,

15:55

right? So I was running like those parties

15:57

and then I was running like a few

15:59

like rave events and club events and everything

16:02

because I was just interested in just building

16:04

stuff and doing stuff, right? But obviously that's

16:06

not like predictable, it's not sustainable, it's not

16:08

something you want to be doing very long.

16:11

But when I got to like 1920, that's

16:13

when I was like, okay, I need to

16:15

kind of like really figure out something. And

16:17

that's when I got into the clothing space,

16:19

the e-commerce space. So I was living in

16:22

London, actually, and I was working in an

16:24

investment bank in London. And again, it was

16:26

more like, I had the resistance of like

16:28

this 9-5 job that was paying me like

16:31

$2, like $2, like, like, like, $2, $2,

16:33

$2, $2, $2, $2, $2, $2, $2, $2,

16:35

$2, $2, $2, $2, $2, $1, $1,000,000, $1,000,000,000,000,

16:37

$1,000, $1,000,000, $1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, and I'd spent every waking

16:40

moment of my life trying to build this

16:42

e-commerce company. So we were doing vintage clothing.

16:44

in the UK, which was blowing up at

16:46

the time, 2016, 2017. How were you learning

16:48

this stuff? Did you have any formal education

16:51

there, so this was picking it up as

16:53

you went along? Picking up to go along,

16:55

you know, and I was surrounded by some,

16:57

I seen and observed some good people in

17:00

London, like true vintage, was a big influence

17:02

to me, I know the guy Rory, quite

17:04

well, I'd seen what he was doing, he

17:06

was getting into urban outfit, I ran into

17:08

it. storing them in my apartment in London.

17:11

I had a huge boxes of clothes everywhere.

17:13

People would be coming back from my clothes

17:15

and stopping seeing all these boxes. But it

17:17

was working. It was working pretty well. We

17:20

were selling units. We were scaling up. We

17:22

were scaling up. We were putting a lot

17:24

of money into ad spend. And it was

17:26

the first thing that I was making actual

17:29

money from that was a bit more logical.

17:31

So we think about what we were using,

17:33

right? My friend always calls like, like, he

17:35

sees me as like an an arbitrator. People

17:37

wanted like good clothes, we were bringing the

17:40

clothes in from Italy, and then like the

17:42

markup was crazy because it was like vintage

17:44

90 clothing. So we did that for a

17:46

while. Really tough, e-commerce is super tough with

17:49

cash flow, just didn't have the ideas like

17:51

infantry, because couldn't manage an in-person infantry at

17:53

scale, was just so complicated. So, again, back

17:55

to the drawing board. Scarcity, need to remove

17:57

from my current situation, not around money, anything.

18:00

Then we moved on to, I needed a

18:02

bigger play. Like, that was the whole logic

18:04

was, I needed bigger plays. My background was

18:06

in engineering, so I studied information systems. So

18:09

I had a good idea of like software.

18:11

And that's what I wanted to build a

18:13

passport app, I find it funny. Passport app

18:15

was basically like a digital passport, so it

18:18

was like a digital ID. The whole logic

18:20

was that was to sell software to huge

18:22

governments, UK, Ireland. India all these like massive

18:24

embassies like try to get relationships with them

18:26

try to build software for them and it

18:29

was a good idea like I remember sitting

18:31

outside Dublin Airport and outside the departure lounge

18:33

and people would come and I'd be like

18:35

would you use a digital passport and then

18:38

like yeah yeah and I was like I

18:40

was doing the discovery like I had the

18:42

data I had the hypothesis I had the

18:44

fucking product built but you just can't get

18:46

into common governments, right? And that was just

18:49

before COVID. I like the ambition. Just before

18:51

COVID. So think about that. Digital passport during

18:53

COVID, how valuable that would have been. This

18:55

was just before it and I'm there in

18:58

Dublin Airport. So that was kind of like

19:00

the big unlock for me, which was like,

19:02

look, it's not ambition or drive or action

19:04

that I struggle with. It's more like the

19:07

execution or more like the subtleties or more

19:09

like the small different areas here that... as

19:11

someone who's 21, 22, I think it was

19:13

23 when I finished it, I just didn't

19:15

have it. I couldn't get funding. I was

19:18

in London trying to do fundraising, wouldn't work,

19:20

couldn't get angel investment. And then at that

19:22

point I'd have ran like four different businesses,

19:24

all gone to zero, like literally zero. And

19:27

that's when I was like, all right, let's

19:29

slow down, listen, learn, and try to take

19:31

in information. And my last step before I

19:33

started my podcast was listening to Lex Truman's

19:35

podcast, for meaning by Victor Frankel and the

19:38

whole logic is that there's a beauty in

19:40

the struggle and like it's meant to be

19:42

difficult and everything that you do is actually

19:44

going to be extremely difficult you're just meant

19:47

to actually enjoy it like that's the whole

19:49

lesson with this so that's when I was

19:51

like right let's slow the fuck down start

19:53

a podcast actually interview people actually learn and

19:56

then actually see where we can execute from

19:58

there so that opened my eyes to the

20:00

online business space at that point. When you

20:02

say started a podcast, what was your logic

20:04

for starting a podcast at that point? That

20:07

wasn't a business. That wasn't what ultimately it

20:09

became voice, but this was just you wanting

20:11

to talk to people, no monetization model? No,

20:13

not because it was just like I had

20:16

to spend so much time trying and just

20:18

failing. And then this is actually kind of

20:20

when like the whole online business coaching spacing

20:22

was starting. But back then, like I couldn't

20:24

buy the programs. I was like, how can

20:27

I bypass that model? Interviewed people. So I

20:29

like to say, maybe you've a good old

20:31

thoughts on this too, is like, you know,

20:33

world of mediocrity, people, a lot of people

20:36

who are obsessed, and especially if you have

20:38

no experience, you can still build relationships with

20:40

people. That's the thing, right? So when I

20:42

was young, 23, 24, and 28 now, I

20:45

was still able to speak to like a

20:47

big CEO or a big founder, because they're

20:49

like, yeah, I'd take a shot with this

20:51

guy, like, I'll sit on Zoom for 45

20:53

minutes to an for 45 minutes to an

20:56

hour, for 45 minutes to an hour, and

20:58

like, for 45 minutes of an hour, and

21:00

like, like, like, like, like, right with something

21:02

so so simple and like people I think

21:05

people really admire when it is shit like

21:07

when you use your laptop from university your

21:09

iPhone is stuck to the wall and zoom

21:11

like people actually like that in the beginning

21:13

because this is scrappy I think it's also

21:16

you know I always say that everyone should

21:18

have a podcast because one of the best

21:20

things it does is allow you to open

21:22

doors to people that you would not otherwise

21:25

get the get the chance to open those

21:27

doors to and like you say you know

21:29

you are 23 24 year old making calls

21:31

to talk to these CEOs and I'm sure

21:34

you know these were obviously people you wanted

21:36

to talk to because you were going to

21:38

learn from them you were going to benefit

21:40

something. But I would assume that most of

21:42

them, if you just contact them and say,

21:45

hey, I'm Darren, can we pop down to

21:47

Starbucks for a couple of coffee so I

21:49

can pick your brains, the answer will be

21:51

a resounding no. But because the framing of

21:54

it is, will you come on my podcast?

21:56

talk your story, let me pump up your

21:58

ego and show you to the world. It

22:00

allows you to open these doors and get

22:02

in front of these people that you otherwise

22:05

wouldn't be able to do. I mean I'm

22:07

just about to do a little series on

22:09

venture capital and private equity. Because my space

22:11

for all my working life really has been

22:14

debt, you know, I'm very good at raising

22:16

debt, very good at deploying debt, but equity,

22:18

you know, whether that's VC or PE, is

22:20

not really my space. And I always get

22:23

asked, you know, to do deals where I

22:25

could potentially add value, but I just don't

22:27

really have enough contacts and enough knowledge to

22:29

be able to do it. So I thought

22:31

it's a missing piece. what's a good way

22:34

for me to go and do it. And

22:36

I've reached out over the last few weeks

22:38

to probably 100 different founders and partners in

22:40

VC firms and advisories with the framing of,

22:43

hey. I'm creating a podcast series based on

22:45

VC and PE. I would love to host

22:47

you on the show. I have an existing

22:49

show with an existing audience so we can

22:51

showcase you, your message in front of X

22:54

number of people. Are you interested? Of the

22:56

hundred people I've reached out to, probably 40

22:58

have responded and 20 are booked in and

23:00

that and that will only grow. But that

23:03

then allows me to go and build 20

23:05

relationships with people in that space. So I'm

23:07

going to learn a bit of something while

23:09

I'm doing the podcast series anyway. But most

23:12

importantly, I've then got the relationships. The email

23:14

address is a direct phone numbers of WhatsApp.

23:16

So these people, that when I want to

23:18

go and try and monetize that at some

23:20

point in the future, it's there. And having

23:23

the podcast has allowed me to do that.

23:25

If I'm not saying it's impossible to do

23:27

it. just in let's say an old-school outreach

23:29

and networking perspective you might get 80% of

23:32

the way along there but it'll take you

23:34

two years not two weeks. It's a timing

23:36

thing right and also it's the the balance

23:38

of the relationship so to give you some

23:40

kind of context how our company started was

23:43

we would hop on the show I would

23:45

chat to someone I would just generally be

23:47

curious just like you know we are and

23:49

we're we're talking and then someone would be

23:52

like oh so like tell me like how

23:54

you do this how does this work? and

23:56

their mind kind of wonders right because the

23:58

framing in the podcast world is me as

24:01

mr. CEO of a random company I have

24:03

to get a script writer a videographer a

24:05

production team it's gonna cost you five ten

24:07

twenty thousand dollars to produce some content for

24:09

your company whereas I just hopped on this

24:12

random podcast with this random kid I got

24:14

the recording I got the clips it looks

24:16

beautiful and we're ready to go so his

24:18

mind is like blown it's like that was

24:21

so easy again dream outcome got the company

24:23

want, effort and sacrifice, alma zero. It's just

24:25

so simple and so visceral. Same in that

24:27

relationship now, right? He's coming in, he's realizing,

24:29

oh, Matt's someone that I could potentially play

24:32

a game with, I could potentially like do

24:34

a business with him in the future, they're

24:36

seeing that, right? They're seeing that. It's not

24:38

direct or away, but you see like the

24:41

journey. And that's what happened in my sense

24:43

of instance was I had interviewed guys. They

24:45

probably had a podcast for some sort of

24:47

a podcast for some sort of mini kind

24:50

of mini kind of mini kind of mini,

24:52

And it was a big unlock. I was

24:54

working in tech, I was working in Revolute,

24:56

I had worked in a century, I worked

24:58

in big consulting companies, and I was too

25:01

proud at the time. Oh no, no, no,

25:03

no, I'm the consultant, I can't do that.

25:05

When the reality was, these guys were looking

25:07

for a bit of coaching, a bit of

25:10

positioning, a bit of change, right? And it

25:12

was a tiny kind of thing that they

25:14

needed to adjust. That was a tiny little

25:16

thing. And I would go in, dude, dude,

25:18

I did it, I did it, I did

25:21

it, I did it, I did it, I

25:23

did it, I did it, I did it,

25:25

I did it, I did it, I did

25:27

it, I did it, I did it, I

25:30

did it, I did it, I did it,

25:32

I did it, I did it, I did

25:34

it, I did it, I did it, I

25:36

did it, I did it, I did it,

25:39

I did it, I did it I would

25:41

always do free work, right? I'll always do

25:43

shit like that. I'm never like not too

25:45

proud to stick my head out somewhere, put

25:47

my foot in the door, and just being

25:50

like, hey, like, because at the end of

25:52

the day, just like you, you know that

25:54

you're good at death. Like you fucking know

25:56

it. You don't need to convince yourself or

25:59

other people to do it, right? And I

26:01

think, again, that breeds a very different relationship,

26:03

then knock, knock, knock, come down to the

26:05

Starbucks and have a conversation with me. So

26:07

it opens up a whole new world. And

26:10

I think it changes the frame, right? It

26:12

positions you as someone of authority. You're coming

26:14

in, and the beauty of the way that

26:16

we kind of run conversations is that I'll

26:19

say something you understand that you'll interpret it,

26:21

you'll interpret it, and you'll give me your

26:23

feedback me your feedback back to. Podcasting has

26:25

changed in terms of it's not like a

26:28

question, answer, question, answer, question, answer. People want

26:30

to come to see what Ma will ask

26:32

Darren. They don't want to see what Darren

26:34

will say on a podcast. If

26:38

you like Deep Dive Conversations, then you

26:40

are going to love my other podcast.

26:42

Stripping off with Matt Haycox. Because this

26:44

is where I sit down with the

26:46

biggest names in business, entertainment, celebrity, media,

26:48

politics and beyond to strip back the

26:51

bullshit, the PR spin and the scripted

26:53

success. And just get you the truth.

26:55

Who's the person behind the mask? What

26:57

does it really take to win? No

26:59

fluff, no filters, just raw naked truce

27:01

and the unfiltered stories from those who've

27:03

truly made it. the link in the

27:05

show notes and get stuck in. And

27:07

that was a genesis of where Voiks

27:09

came from then. You were doing a

27:11

podcast, just have conversations, you were, let's

27:13

say, accidentally if you want to use

27:15

that word, getting asked to help some

27:17

other people. You did it for free

27:20

and then you realised there was a

27:22

business in this and a monetisation model.

27:24

two sides to it. So one, that

27:26

would be, it was like a, a

27:28

growth flywheel. So basically it's a, it's

27:30

a call idea of the network effect.

27:32

I had these podcast coming out with

27:34

people, so it was, it was true

27:36

association, for sure. I'd have a podcast

27:38

going up, but X, Y, Z with

27:40

this guy in finance, this guy in

27:42

online business space or whatnot, and people

27:44

would come around the corner and be

27:47

like, how would you do that, how

27:49

was this done, how was this done?

27:51

So I was doing coaching initially, coaching

27:53

initially for free, coaching initially for free,

27:55

initially for free, for free, for free,

27:57

Because as you know what like that

27:59

or whatnot, it's the small things that

28:01

you can't implement to add up and

28:03

make a big change. So I just

28:05

said, quite simply, fuck it, we'll do

28:07

it. I'll do it for you. You

28:09

can't do something else, I'll do it

28:11

for you. Can't write something, I'll do

28:13

it for you. So I was doing

28:16

this around the side and we were

28:18

just building a mini agency at that

28:20

time. I didn't even know what their

28:22

agency meant. I literally don't even know

28:24

what it means today. I was just

28:26

doing shit for people and they were

28:28

like, how much you want to do

28:30

want for it? I was like, oh,

28:32

like $600, $2,000, $4,000, $4,000,000, $8, $8,

28:34

$8, $10,000,000,000,000, $10, $10, $10, $1, $1,

28:36

$1, $1,000,000,000, $1,000, $1,000,000,000,000,000, $1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 basically working

28:38

in trading, I was building trading products,

28:40

my background is in product design, and

28:43

I'd seen and observed the service business

28:45

online space, and I was like, these

28:47

people treat their clients like shit, they

28:49

treat their customers like shit, they don't

28:51

have a customer-centric approach, you don't have

28:53

a product focus, maybe I'll just take

28:55

what I learned in Revolute and just

28:57

throw it in here. So I guess

28:59

came at this with like a more

29:01

professional approach. We saw B to B

29:03

only for a long time. I would

29:05

hop on these calls. I used to

29:07

be in Revolute the buyer. So if

29:10

someone wants to sell software, I used

29:12

to buy the software. So I'd been

29:14

on these calls. I've done the four

29:16

demo calls, the five demo calls, and

29:18

now I was the seller. So I

29:20

would just knock on the door of

29:22

these like tech companies and so on

29:24

and be like hey like this is

29:26

how I would position your podcast is

29:28

how we would do it and for

29:30

the most part when they wanted to

29:32

work with us they liked it because

29:34

it was like an error of professionalism

29:36

and then that's what grew like the

29:39

media company overall initially and it was

29:41

very much like client by client I'll

29:43

pick it up from here we'll go

29:45

to four clients five clients ten clients

29:47

and then that kind of got us

29:49

to our first like let's say six

29:51

figures a year six figures a year

29:53

And then at that point, then we

29:55

were like, okay, well, we need some

29:57

sort of like, we need some aspect

29:59

of an upside, that there has to

30:01

be some aspects of an upside, because

30:03

we were letting go of so much

30:06

of the market, because we only had

30:08

like, we only work with B2B companies

30:10

and so on, right? Which is good,

30:12

like specificity is definitely good, but it

30:14

has its limitations. And I remember one

30:16

day, we were running a podcast for

30:18

this kind of like, not famous, but

30:20

this guy who was a writer who

30:22

was a writer for Forbes, in one

30:24

of those companies. And we got an

30:26

email and the email was like, hey,

30:28

like we want to sponsor your podcast.

30:30

I was like, that's kind of weird.

30:33

What does that look like? And then

30:35

I was like, yeah, how much is

30:37

it? They're like, oh, $600. And like

30:39

I said, well, we could do $1,000.

30:41

And then I said, well, we could

30:43

do $1,000. And then I said, well,

30:45

we could do a thousand dollars. And

30:47

then I said, can I just want

30:49

to send them to handle this. So

30:51

we were getting forwarded like 5, 10,

30:53

20 emails a day and we just

30:55

basically just started selling sponsorships like this.

30:57

And then the logic was, why don't

30:59

we just do that for a few

31:02

other top performing shows? And then we

31:04

started selling more sponsorships. So then this

31:06

media, this agency turned into more of

31:08

a media company where we were running

31:10

their sponsorships for them. And now we

31:12

had finally cracked what most people will

31:14

never be able to do is a

31:16

monetization on their podcast. So we had

31:18

built good relations for people, again, my

31:20

kind of B2B, tech company background, consulting

31:22

background. We just got relations for people.

31:24

And we were like, what makes sense

31:26

for you? What's the win for you,

31:29

Ma? What's the win for Darren? What's

31:31

win for the host over here? and

31:33

that really really really scaled like that

31:35

really really scaled and I think to

31:37

be honest like even like you know

31:39

reflection where we are now we could

31:41

add even more scale into that you

31:43

know we could put more sales reps

31:45

in build more relationships it's tough it's

31:47

really really tough but I like to

31:49

kind of say that I always want

31:51

to repeat good behaviors right it was

31:53

just what is a good behavior good

31:55

client good sponsorship what could we do

31:58

and then the kind of I guess

32:00

the last part of the media arm

32:02

was the products so I'd seen like

32:04

a lot of these companies or let's

32:06

say even like the big pogasters, they

32:08

don't even like look at Chris Williamson.

32:10

They don't really have a product. Like

32:12

I know he has Neutronic now, but

32:14

he never really had anything. He never

32:16

had like a program, a course, or

32:18

anything. He never really had anything. Now

32:20

I know he had a journal and

32:22

I know that had like some challenges.

32:25

So we were like, why not use,

32:27

look at it from a like... psychology

32:29

perspective. You get traffic because you say

32:31

something that's meaningful and then you give

32:33

people help with a product. I was

32:35

like, why does that not make sense?

32:37

And people are like, yeah, that makes

32:39

a lot of sense. So we started

32:41

to use our team then to build

32:43

products, build services, build consulting, coaching, agencies

32:45

for our clients. And that was really

32:47

kind of like a big inflection point,

32:49

which again, this is still 2022, 2022,

32:52

2023. Right. So you just said something

32:54

a minute ago you said. then we

32:56

cracked it, what most people never do,

32:58

which is finding monetisation for their podcast.

33:00

What are the actual stats of podcasts

33:02

that... I guess we could ask this

33:04

question a few different ways. How many

33:06

podcasts generate some money? how many podcasts

33:08

don't generate money and never will and

33:10

people don't even care because I mean

33:12

I would imagine that you can tell

33:14

me how wrong I am but I'd

33:16

say that probably 95% of podcasts are

33:18

non-profitable passion projects slash mistakes in some

33:21

way shape or form and then of

33:23

that 5% at the top end I

33:25

would imagine probably 1% of that is

33:27

is making people money and the rest

33:29

might be bringing a bit of income.

33:31

I think the positioning of people and

33:33

their pockets is wrong though, because it's

33:35

not about, oh, like I want to

33:37

get a sponsorship from Adidas, like that's

33:39

like the wrong frame. The way I

33:41

kind of situated is like, so firstly,

33:43

there's three million pockets. All of those,

33:45

only 300,000 are active. And of that,

33:48

300,000, 200,000 are active. Some people are

33:50

viewing them the wrong way that they're

33:52

like, okay, I have a limiting belief.

33:54

But the reality is that when you

33:56

solve a specific problem for a specific

33:58

user that's easy to find online, they

34:00

will take the next natural step to

34:02

buy from you. Because let's look at

34:04

it from the lens of a post

34:06

on IG. If you're running your business

34:08

of IG and you have a post,

34:10

and on the back end there's a

34:12

product or service, that makes sense, right?

34:14

But we all understand that. That makes

34:17

sense. Why can't? that work for a

34:19

podcast. It's the same thing. Tweet, newsletter,

34:21

LinkedIn Post. Just change the modality, which

34:23

is a podcast, and just add in

34:25

your product on the back end. So

34:27

even people like Owen and Lead that

34:29

were at or mastermind the other day,

34:31

their biggest feedback to us was we

34:33

never realized it was that easy to

34:35

monitor the podcast. That's the thing, right?

34:37

That there needs to be the, I

34:39

call it the connective tissue, if you

34:41

call it the connective tissue. And I

34:44

think when we talk about the asymmetrical

34:46

returns, in terms of revenue, I would

34:48

not say that's the best shows, I

34:50

would say that's the most focused shows.

34:52

Did we've shows out of 200 subscribers

34:54

doing $205,000 a year in sponsorship? Why?

34:56

Because they're super specific. So it's less

34:58

like, I need to be Joe Rogan,

35:00

I need to be Chris Williamson, I

35:02

need to be Richard. It's more like,

35:04

I need to be fucking focused. I

35:06

just need to be focused. Do I

35:08

have an existing business? Do I have

35:11

a fund in the back? Do I

35:13

have a service business in the back?

35:15

How can I get people from my

35:17

mechanism of YouTube into my business? It's

35:19

just fucking super simple. It's like... You

35:21

don't need to change the world, you

35:23

don't need to reinvent the wheel, you

35:25

just need to find what's the common

35:27

shred between the content that you're producing

35:29

and the offer you have. So let's

35:31

use a simple example. We help people

35:33

grow and monetize our podcast. We'll have

35:35

content that shows them while building an

35:37

audience is valuable, while building an offer

35:40

that solves the same problem as the

35:42

content is valuable, and they'll see that,

35:44

and they'll hear it, and they're going

35:46

to make some of those. And then

35:48

on the back end, they might come

35:50

in and work with a product that

35:52

we have, a service that we have,

35:54

or whatever. Do you get me? So

35:56

it's a different reality, and then that's

35:58

why I'm trying to say that the

36:00

asymmetrical returns of who makes all the

36:02

money is not reflective of who's the

36:04

biggest show, right. There is, of course,

36:07

as always, anomalies. There are people like

36:09

Joe Rogan, Chris Williamson that have made

36:11

a lot of money. But I'm telling

36:13

you, like the guys that are small,

36:15

that are focused, and specific, they're killing

36:17

it. They're just killing it. Well I

36:19

guess it ultimately comes down to who

36:21

is your audience because yes okay the

36:23

size plays in a bit but the

36:25

better quality of the audience the smaller

36:27

the size can be and I guess

36:29

I guess all that you're doing is

36:31

using the podcast like and use it

36:34

like anything else as a medium to

36:36

connect the listeners with the with the

36:38

sponsors and I guess taking it to

36:40

his extreme as a hypothetical example if

36:42

you only had 50 listeners and that

36:44

but those 50 listeners were Richard Branson

36:46

Elon Musk Donald Trump bum bum bum

36:48

bum bum and a sponsor wants to

36:50

directly contact or directly target those 50

36:52

people how else in the world could

36:54

that sponsor possibly get in front of

36:56

the you know the the the lawyers

36:58

of Elon Musk Donald Trump, Richard Branson.

37:00

Well, I'm in that podcast house, even

37:03

though he's only got 50 listeners, he

37:05

can charge what the fuck he wants,

37:07

couldn't he? Because he's got the most

37:09

unique position in the world. So it

37:11

was my friend Daniel Priestley, who wrote

37:13

a book, wrote several books, he wrote

37:15

behavioral finance, he wrote the Soul of

37:17

Wealth, very famous author, he said it

37:19

to me many years ago. He had

37:21

a personal finance podcast, and it was

37:23

about wealth and wealth broadly broadly. And

37:25

then he said to me, he was

37:27

like, these hedge funds, these private equity

37:30

firms, these well management firms, they want

37:32

to spend so much money on acquiring

37:34

the users of this. And that was

37:36

a tiny audience. And then that penny

37:38

dropped from me in like 2021. And

37:40

then I seen it. We have a

37:42

H.R. a podcast. H.R. How more, how

37:44

boring could that be, right? But it's

37:46

hyper specific because due to remote work

37:48

after COVID, HR is a huge bottleneck

37:50

for companies. They don't know how to

37:52

crack it. They don't know how to

37:54

pay for HR and payroll and all

37:56

this kind of stuff. So these tech

37:59

companies have huge budgets, huge investment, and

38:01

they want to acquire people that are

38:03

like executives. and see sweet decision makers.

38:05

And like again, I didn't intend for

38:07

this, I saw it, and I was

38:09

like, when I saw it, I can't

38:11

unsee it. So a big thing we

38:13

talked about last week was about specificity

38:15

of audience. Because one is a demographic,

38:17

but then there's also a psychographic influence.

38:19

Because if the demographic is like, older

38:21

people spend their money on country clubs,

38:23

expensive cigars, expensive restaurants, education for their

38:26

kids. cars, there's a ton of things

38:28

around peripheral, that is either discretionary or

38:30

mandatory, let's say, for you to dial

38:32

into. So I changed that frame, right,

38:34

which is like, we're going off through

38:36

a valuable audience and these people then

38:38

want to start the buying journey with

38:40

us, whether it's true products or services

38:42

or whatnot. And that's only one side.

38:44

And I think what was the biggest

38:46

thing for me was like. I'd seen

38:48

this and then we were bringing in

38:50

clients and then clients were doing the

38:53

same, like there was the same thing

38:55

that was happening over again and that's

38:57

when we went more into the education

38:59

business which is like all these guys

39:01

in theory can run the same funnel

39:03

the same business the same industry providing

39:05

it to podcast so it's a podcast

39:07

in front and different industries and it's

39:09

the same it's the same outcome and

39:11

it's always been the same outcome the

39:13

only time this breaks is if you're

39:15

a super vague thing that we have

39:17

is we have a ton of like

39:19

personal development podcast we work with. And

39:22

the second they come in, I just

39:24

said that I'm straight off, the personal

39:26

development podcast is not going to work.

39:28

We're going to need more specific. You

39:30

can be mental health, you can be

39:32

fucking childhood trauma, you can be whatever

39:34

you want, but you need to be

39:36

specific, otherwise it's not going to work

39:38

for you. Right, and I think that

39:40

sometimes turns people off, but you know,

39:42

there's a big difference between a hobby

39:44

and a seven figure business, right? Right,

39:46

they're just, this is a plain and

39:49

side difference. And it's fine, you can

39:51

keep it a hobby, but I think

39:53

the people that we've been working with

39:55

are just the ideas of why we

39:57

got the kind of outside success is

39:59

just the fact that most people, most

40:01

people view themselves as a hobby. They

40:03

don't view themselves as serious, you know,

40:05

and I think we've been kind of

40:07

working with. serious people and they're just

40:09

killers. Would the solution to that specificity?

40:11

if someone was let's say wanting to

40:13

do multiple things be to have multiple

40:15

podcasts yes you know you've mentioned HR

40:18

I actually started an HR podcast about

40:20

three years ago and we've got we've

40:22

got we've got four episodes in and

40:24

and that's that's fallen into the statistics

40:26

of one of the 2.7 million million

40:28

dead podcast but I mean I had

40:30

a new HR director at the time

40:32

we started and I was on a

40:34

bit of a mission for mass content

40:36

that year so I said right let's

40:38

start at will start a podcast called

40:40

the HR zone and it was basically

40:42

going to be because I also think

40:45

as much as I'm on these different

40:47

things I can't host kind of everything

40:49

you know it looks a bit silly

40:51

so this was going to be kind

40:53

of me and her together I would

40:55

be let's say a guiding host as

40:57

opposed to the the real educator because

40:59

I don't profess to have have the

41:01

knowledge in HR and it was kind

41:03

of going to be educating the guests

41:05

the guests So educating the listeners each

41:07

week on HR problems from the framing

41:09

of, let's say, following Matt on his

41:12

journey to try and fix the HR

41:14

issue, fix the HR issues in his

41:16

business. I kind of like the idea

41:18

still, but yeah, I don't know, lack

41:20

of interest, lack of resource, lack of

41:22

something. The interest is the big thing,

41:24

right? And like, that's what I try

41:26

to detach. Like, is it a pure

41:28

interest? And are you happy that it's

41:30

a passion project? And are you happy

41:32

to set it aside that this is

41:34

not going to make money? If you

41:36

are, it's fine. But if you are

41:38

like, oh, I want to turn us

41:41

into a business or I want this

41:43

to be part of my business, you

41:45

need to kind of understand that like

41:47

not everything you need to be super

41:49

passionate about. Right. Does that make sense?

41:51

There's going to be a bit of

41:53

a line in the gap. And like,

41:55

I mean, it's a nice happy medium

41:57

medium medium, right. So I'll. He has

41:59

a few different podcasts that we work

42:01

on. They're very professional. And he's a

42:03

great speaker and he works hard. But

42:05

then he also has his own personal

42:08

podcast, which is more to do with,

42:10

I guess it's probably more personal development,

42:12

more to do with mindset, limiting beliefs,

42:14

kind of books he's reading and everything.

42:16

I'm like, that's cool, dude. Like, keep

42:18

that over there, leave that run over

42:20

there. Well, that's his fun, that's his

42:22

hobby, but he doesn't care about making

42:24

about making money, making money, the other

42:26

stuff, the other stuff, the other stuff

42:28

is. Because I think the problem is

42:30

you look at someone who's at the

42:32

top of the game like a Joe

42:34

Rogan and you're like, well it's easier,

42:37

you're like, but he keeps it broad,

42:39

there's aliens one week, politics the next

42:41

week, and then like something else the

42:43

next week. And I said yes, but

42:45

are you willing to do the two

42:47

and a half thousand that he did

42:49

for ten years? Right, that's the difference

42:51

and I think one thing you got

42:53

to also realize is that this is

42:55

like, you know, forget a podcast if

42:57

you're going to start a YouTube channel

42:59

if you're going to start an IG

43:01

channel This is just so every we've

43:04

been talking about is the same thing

43:06

for a podcast as it is for

43:08

YouTube We run a ton of YouTube

43:10

channels that are separate and YouTube This

43:12

is why it's important that in the

43:14

agency. We do what we say we're

43:16

doing and we do what we teach

43:18

is because YouTube changes like this It's

43:20

for business as well. And you know,

43:22

people would not go and say, I'm

43:24

going to be in everything business. Just

43:26

get people the boy with stuff, right?

43:28

But you said, just to interrupt though,

43:31

we say that, yeah, there's no algorithm

43:33

in the business, but I think that

43:35

specificity, it's not just for podcasts, it's

43:37

not just for YouTube channels, it's for

43:39

business as well. And you know, people

43:41

would not go and say, I'm going

43:43

to be in everything, I'm going to

43:45

be in everything business, their USP is

43:47

a fact that they sell absolutely everything

43:49

cheaper than anyone else could do it

43:51

anywhere else in the world. Other than

43:53

that every other shop you go to

43:55

is a specificity shop. You know you

43:57

can't sell sports gear plus television sets

44:00

you know and expected to happen so

44:02

I guess I guess people understand that

44:04

concept when it suits but then what

44:06

and then want to ignore it when

44:08

it comes to media. Well, they get

44:10

to the point where they think it

44:12

might be, it might hold them back,

44:14

but if anything, it's actually the opposite.

44:16

So you gotta think about it, right?

44:18

You know, we, same with you, right,

44:20

when you're looking at a new business

44:22

to start, or when we're looking at

44:24

a client's business, because we have to

44:27

analyze the business, the biggest thing they

44:29

always say is like, oh, like, is

44:31

there enough? 10,000 of those people, how

44:33

much are actually going to pay? So

44:35

the time is getting smaller and smaller,

44:37

but we still have grown a relatively

44:39

big-sized business, right? So what's interesting there

44:41

is this specificity works, and most people

44:43

think that their time isn't big enough,

44:45

and there's other people like Neil Patel

44:47

who, if I'm going to show, he's

44:49

the opposite. He thinks that go off

44:51

for the biggest time as possible. Yeah,

44:54

and I think there's sometimes there's a

44:56

part for that. but you could still

44:58

build a seven figure of business off

45:00

a small narrow niche. Now, the enjoyment

45:02

piece. Yes, I think you might get

45:04

a bit stale, but as what I've

45:06

realized with my own podcast is if

45:08

you truly do enjoy the topic, you'll

45:10

find ways to come up with new

45:12

ideas. It's kind of like, you know,

45:14

if you're learning paddle, you're initially thinking,

45:16

oh right, hit the ball like this,

45:18

but then you come out next a

45:20

week and you think. Well if I

45:23

turn my stance this way and you

45:25

work on this new thing six weeks

45:27

later you're still figuring out that thing

45:29

and a new thing has come up.

45:31

So it's kind of like the deeper

45:33

you go into hole and that's the

45:35

beauty of like mastery. That is what

45:37

mastery is is that it means you

45:39

will do this forever. That's why a

45:41

Japanese samurai can literally spend his entire

45:43

life just understanding how to store it

45:45

holds in his hand. Using paddle as

45:47

the example. How broad do you think

45:50

you could go there without it then

45:52

almost just becoming not paddled? Just using

45:54

paddle is the excuse. So you've got

45:56

paddle and teaching a four-hand one-week, teaching

45:58

a back. and the next week, you

46:00

know, how to how to run better,

46:02

you know, to play paddle the week

46:04

after. But then you start to, let's

46:06

say, have famous guests who happen to

46:08

love playing paddle. And then you talk

46:10

to them a bit about paddle to

46:13

bring it around to paddle, but then

46:15

also you're talking to them in general

46:17

about whatever. Is that losing the specificity

46:19

of that, is that going off track

46:21

then? Not necessarily if it goes back

46:24

to the central team. Right because like

46:26

the central team is like it's in my

46:28

podcast is helping young people build online businesses

46:30

Right so that can be like agencies

46:32

coaching consulting whatever there's a central team

46:35

and a central team for us is

46:37

like growth Content and monetization so we

46:39

kind of bring it back to the

46:41

central team of course a conversation will

46:43

naturally flow right it will actually flow,

46:45

but that would bring your enjoyment into it

46:47

because then you could be like well Matt

46:49

last week I spoke to John and John

46:51

had this approach on this and maybe that

46:53

brings up something new Right? That's the kind

46:55

of, that's the beauty of it. I think the

46:57

challenge is, if you want to put yourself in

46:59

the bucket of like a Stephen Burton and

47:02

a Chris Williamson, be prepared to fight for

47:04

that market. You're considering them very broad, yeah?

47:06

Yeah, because like a Joe rogue, different to

47:08

Joe, but no, but it's the same thing,

47:10

right? They're just going broad as fuck. So

47:12

if you want to go in that bracket,

47:14

like be prepared to have a dog food,

47:16

because that's a red ocean. The Red Ocean,

47:18

right? It's very aggressive. It's all about

47:21

how big the audience is. Those guys

47:23

are running a ton of ads. They're

47:25

running a ton of ads, man. On

47:27

their IG, on everything. They're outspending

47:29

you a marketing budget, resources, scripting,

47:31

the guests, maybe they're paying them,

47:33

that's off to you to the

47:36

side. But they're playing back it.

47:38

So you can play that game,

47:40

and that's a red ocean, and

47:42

you will get eating a life,

47:44

unfortunately, unfortunately, because it's how big as

47:46

a person. Whereas the blue ocean opportunity

47:49

and the new opportunity is being specific.

47:51

It's just that's it I'm in category of one

47:53

Matt is the category of one He's the guy

47:55

you come to for debt. There's no one else.

47:58

It's on 750 million worth of deals and debt

48:00

There's no one else, especially in the

48:02

UK. So that starts a journey with

48:04

me as mad as my potential business

48:06

partner, buyer, seller, whatever we want to

48:08

do in the future. Whereas that is

48:10

completely new. We could build products, services,

48:12

sponsorships, partnerships, JVs, everything in that world.

48:14

But if you spoke to us even

48:17

about tomorrow, why would you ask him

48:19

to do? Like what could you possibly

48:21

ask him to build it? Am I

48:23

going to ask him to help me

48:25

build a podcast business? Am I going

48:27

to ask him to build a debt

48:29

business with me? Because he's doing a

48:31

different thing. Like he's playing a different

48:33

game. Like he's playing a different game.

48:35

What is it or was his game?

48:37

Because that's all right. It's all right.

48:39

Not fuel. Yeah. You know, because I'd

48:42

heard from someone who's worked with him

48:44

recently, that basically this was always a

48:46

very long-term play to just meet lots

48:48

and lots and lots of people, build

48:50

audience. It's like a private equity play.

48:52

And then ultimately have audience that he

48:54

can sell to and then raise funds

48:56

on the other side of it. Yeah,

48:58

exactly. So he could have a software

49:00

that runs on the back, you know,

49:02

you could do like a hermosey approach

49:04

where you build a goodwill of the

49:07

audience for four or five years. and

49:09

then he partnered up with school, so

49:11

he captures the audience, right? That's a

49:13

big pride of us, right? We have

49:15

the bigger audience, we're trying to capture

49:17

the people that want to start a

49:19

podcast through like our education business, and

49:21

then we have the higher ticket approach,

49:23

right? That's what Hermozi is doing, but

49:25

he owns them. Right, and that's what

49:27

a Stephen Bartlett will do, eventually don't,

49:30

if they want to do that, right?

49:32

But that's a different game altogether, right?

49:34

That's something. What was Chris Williams' game

49:36

then, because you say he's got the

49:38

neutron or whatever it is now? Yeah,

49:40

he is neutronic, the drink now, which

49:42

he's worked with Genflow on. I know

49:44

Sean well and their partner on that.

49:46

Was that always a planner, was he

49:48

just building a podcast and building an

49:50

audience? for fun or a big hobby

49:52

in the meantime. Kind of going to

49:55

latter, like building it for fun, he's

49:57

curiosity. I will say that like the,

49:59

you know, the cream rises to the

50:01

top. He's very elegant how he speaks,

50:03

very professional, he's good looking, he knows

50:05

his shit and he's well connected and

50:07

he kind of played the kind of,

50:09

he played into the bigger education space

50:11

of your Andrew Huberman, Matt Walker, Eric

50:13

Weinstein, all these kind of like really

50:15

smart intellectual people, that's kind of what

50:17

he kind of associated his brand with.

50:20

And then as a result then, you

50:22

know, when he gets his sponsors coming

50:24

in the door, you know, they're not

50:26

paying him 2K an episode, let's put

50:28

it that way, right, right, right, right,

50:30

right. he kind of has his cash

50:32

cow and then I think people like

50:34

Sean who's a friend of mine he

50:36

kind of partnered with him then to

50:38

build different things because what I've learned

50:40

is especially because like we're doing a

50:43

model that Sean's doing but very much

50:45

more specific to podcasting what I've learned

50:47

is that you know you can be

50:49

an amazing front end to the business

50:51

like speaker communicator great ideas and visionary

50:53

But without the back end, you're fucked.

50:55

Like, you're just, you're just fucked. And

50:57

I've seen this over and over and

50:59

over and over again. So I think

51:01

what we've been trying to do is

51:03

like guarantee the back end, being laser,

51:05

being razor sharp, and running that for

51:08

the front end. And then now we're

51:10

actually running the front end too, right?

51:12

Because we're running their content, they're just

51:14

speaking, effectively. Because I think. The biggest

51:16

disconnect is understanding flow. Think about it

51:18

in the context of an ad. If

51:20

you turn on an ad, an ad,

51:22

an ad will run until it's turned

51:24

off. But let's replace the word ad

51:26

with the person. If the person is

51:28

not doing the work, the business just

51:30

stops working. So that's why it's very

51:33

important for someone like us to control

51:35

the flow of content that's coming out

51:37

and then control the back end of

51:39

the product that's being supported. They have

51:41

to work outside with it. It's like

51:43

it's like an accelerator. It's like, present

51:45

one, you're present another. You got a

51:47

present one or another, right? And what's

51:49

the strategy of the, let's say the

51:51

big, what I would call faceless international

51:53

companies? You know, your sales forces and

51:56

visas and those kind of people, when

51:58

they... When they have their podcasts, I

52:00

say podcast, podcasts, podcasts, I don't know

52:02

if they have multiple ones, you know,

52:04

how do they build audience and build

52:06

Connect? Because I guess, you know, when

52:08

we're talking about, let's say personal branding

52:10

versus corporate branding, you know, obviously everybody

52:12

knows a personal brand will always outperform

52:14

a corporate brand. But how do these

52:16

corporate podcasts succeed? You know, what's their

52:18

strategy? I think it's more acquisition. So

52:21

they're, so really good question because we

52:23

brought this corporate podcast style into the

52:25

personal one, but made it like less

52:27

robotic basically, which was our goal is

52:29

acquisition. We are trying to acquire users

52:31

at a fraction of the cost and

52:33

our CAC customer acquisition cost goes out.

52:35

Very simple. Who opened a board? We

52:37

will do that by talking about the

52:39

product, the story, the origin story, their

52:41

mission in the world, how to set

52:43

it up. We want to use it

52:46

as an acquisition channel so that when

52:48

you see someone's name pop up on

52:50

a blog or a newsletter or a

52:52

company or whatnot, and you're interested in

52:54

a CRM, well you may not listen

52:56

to the 40 minute podcast from Salesforce,

52:58

but you have seen that they have

53:00

launched a new CRM that are talking

53:02

about on their podcast. And I think

53:04

that was the biggest thing, the biggest

53:06

unlock for me, which was looking at

53:09

it from that perspective, which is like,

53:11

right, they do have 17 downloads. Actually

53:13

use as a mechanism to get people

53:15

into the ecosystem because that's all my

53:17

marketing is But you have to realize

53:19

that the modalities are consumption are differently

53:21

Some people will watch a YouTube video

53:23

some people read a newsletter some people

53:25

watch short form some people watch on

53:27

LinkedIn some people do none in this

53:29

book I call anyway But you kind

53:31

of have to if you're especially a

53:34

corporate Utilize the modality to see which

53:36

one it works for you and then

53:38

almost double down on it because if

53:40

you have to do it to do

53:42

it for like a hundred reps writing

53:44

don't write because you're not going to

53:46

write for 100 reps. But if you

53:48

like speaking, we just got off a

53:50

call with one of our clients. They

53:52

added 25 million last year. They've just.

53:54

because nine figures have passed 900 million.

53:56

They love their podcast because one, it

53:59

keeps them kind of like balanced, you

54:01

know, they're not just like grow, grow,

54:03

grow, grow, grow, and two, when people

54:05

come through the funnel, which is for

54:07

them like conferences, in-person events, people could

54:09

say like love the podcast, love what

54:11

you're doing, love what you're doing, love

54:13

what you're doing. Did that prospect listen

54:15

to 52 episodes from last year? Fuck

54:17

no. Doesn't matter. Tell me, of the,

54:19

I don't know if you know the

54:22

answer to this, but so of the

54:24

3 million podcasts are out there and

54:26

the 2.7 dead ones, we've got the

54:28

300,000 active ones, for the, let's say,

54:30

loyal or subscribed listeners of these active

54:32

podcasts, what is the percentage number of

54:34

episodes they would typically listen to? So

54:36

I take a good question. Because our

54:38

whole thing is some of the bigger

54:40

companies. that have pushed the famous podcast

54:42

to do the two to three episodes

54:44

a week the data on it is

54:47

that the returning viewers goes down it

54:49

plummets because think about it when you're

54:51

when you're releasing three ninety minute podcasts

54:53

a week is someone listening to one

54:55

on Tuesday one on Saturday no if

54:57

it's an educated buyer an educated audience,

54:59

they're working too. They're either building a

55:01

company or they're working as an engineer

55:03

or someone, right? So the retention is

55:05

worse. But you're giving them more chances

55:07

to listen though, aren't you? You err,

55:09

but we kind of do want to

55:12

get them to listen because we still

55:14

record the videos, but our frequency of

55:16

release would adjust. So, maybe I'm missing

55:18

to some, but let's use Stephen Bartlett

55:20

as an example, because he's release schedules,

55:22

gotten heavier, isn't it? Yeah. You know,

55:24

I, so I subscribe to the diary

55:26

of the CEO, I would not consider

55:28

myself an avid listener, but, you know,

55:30

I would consider myself a regular listener,

55:32

but I would listen only when there's

55:35

episodes of people. want to listen to,

55:37

like couldn't wait for the, you know,

55:39

the round two of Daniel Priestley to

55:41

come out or there's an if it's

55:43

someone business related, if it's someone celebrity

55:45

related or celebrity I like, then I'm

55:47

going to be listening. If it's a,

55:49

whether, maybe something health and fitness or

55:51

three hours on gut health or something,

55:53

it's just not for me. But I

55:55

guess if in a week he launched

55:57

a priestly episode and a gut health

56:00

episode, an assignment cowel episode, He's given

56:02

me a 66% well a 66% chance

56:04

of wanting to listen to him that

56:06

week as opposed to if it was

56:08

gut health only that week then I

56:10

wouldn't be tuning in at all. Basically

56:12

it's a good point but you're still

56:14

going to listen to that podcast when

56:16

it comes up to it right that's

56:18

a thing. So yeah but it might

56:20

tell me like it could take me

56:22

longer to get there could protect me

56:25

another month to connect with him as

56:27

opposed to connecting with him right right

56:29

now. For sure and that's why if

56:31

it was specific if it comes out

56:33

to banker. Right, so you could, so.

56:35

So you're saying, Stephen theoretically could have,

56:37

diary of a CEO, the health, the

56:39

health episodes, diary of a CEO, the

56:41

business files. Interior, you know. Now I

56:43

can't exactly advise on diary to see,

56:45

he's advising on me to be honest.

56:48

But I just think that you made

56:50

a really good point because like you've

56:52

had Daniel on our show, I've had

56:54

Daniel on my show as well, if

56:56

a Daniel episode comes out, he's going

56:58

to listen to it. If you can

57:00

run up four episodes a month, and

57:02

you're getting the returning of yours, and

57:04

they're coming back, and it's not too

57:06

stressful for you, and you're happy with

57:08

it, you're happy with the process, by

57:10

all means go to six. And then

57:13

when you're happy with six, by all

57:15

means go to eight. But if you

57:17

find yourself in the content, flywheel, like

57:19

hamster wheel, on a version of burning,

57:21

burning out, It's nice to know that

57:23

you can decrease output and still get

57:25

more results. Because of course if you

57:27

can run episode... episodes a month perfectly

57:29

fine do it but it's like that's

57:31

just a big limiting belief that why

57:33

people don't get started because they're like

57:35

well Chris Williamson comes out chooses it

57:38

which has a Saturday but again one

57:40

is playing a different game and two

57:42

he has a systems in place right

57:44

so a big thing it's funny because

57:46

we've had some guys come out of

57:48

those bigger companies into our company and

57:50

the first thing we do initially is

57:52

bring them down from 12 to 4

57:54

and we'll just consolidate the whole thing

57:56

see the data see the returning viewers

57:58

did it come back in Fantastic, has

58:01

the man or woman got her life

58:03

back a small bit, just been a

58:05

content creator? Okay, can we ramp things

58:07

up now? Without things breaking or them

58:09

personally breaking, right? Because it can become

58:11

a hamster wheel, right? What's the opposite

58:13

of it insofar as what's the minimum

58:15

episode you could do? Could you do

58:17

one of one? I would say two.

58:19

That's the minimum. Yeah, I would say

58:21

two. Yeah, I would say two. Yeah,

58:23

I would say two a week. and

58:26

a lot of that's lip speak but

58:28

also like a lot of that is

58:30

just like it's just not needed so

58:32

I'm like let's nail to so like

58:34

I frequently will get people to pay

58:36

me less money because I'm like I

58:38

don't want you to commit to four

58:40

because I know statistically that people have

58:42

trouble doing four so let's just do

58:44

two two becomes more let's do four

58:46

until four becomes boring you know because

58:48

I will take the cash but you

58:51

don't need it like let's be very

58:53

clear I would not advise you to

58:55

do something that you don't necessarily need

58:57

to do. I would much refer you

58:59

to focus on LinkedIn or focus on

59:01

IG as a secondary to run up

59:03

into YouTube. Because YouTube is a quality

59:05

platform. Do you like the logic of

59:07

kind of podcast series, you know, where

59:09

someone might do eight episodes and you'll

59:11

be, you know, season one, you know,

59:14

an eight episode season one, then they

59:16

might take a bit of time out

59:18

and there'll be a season two. And

59:20

when I, typically when I see them,

59:22

there doesn't seem to be any differential

59:24

between these seasons. It's not like season

59:26

one was the boys, season two was

59:28

the girls, it just seems to be

59:30

like we got together and smashed out

59:32

those episodes and couldn't be asked for

59:34

a few months and then we'll call

59:36

the next one season two just to

59:39

have an excuse why there's a bit

59:41

of a lag between it. But I

59:43

mean is there some logic in seasons?

59:45

I don't think it's a good idea.

59:47

Just because like... People, it's a spotlight

59:49

effect. People think everyone's watching them, but

59:51

the reality is no one's watching them.

59:53

So if you have traction with YouTube,

59:55

and let's say people are coming back,

59:57

and all of a sudden you just

59:59

turn off the lights and go take

1:00:01

a break for three months, you just

1:00:04

lost the audience, you just lost the

1:00:06

audience, you own the audience, you're building

1:00:08

an audience, they're like, they're going through

1:00:10

seven hours of an arc of learning,

1:00:12

of learning from you to, to buy

1:00:14

from you. It's like, what are you

1:00:16

going to be doing? Like, what do

1:00:18

you do? If you take a break,

1:00:20

what are you doing? And the usual

1:00:22

answer is, oh, I don't know. So

1:00:24

I think what I would phrase that

1:00:27

as is, like, let's say you're starting,

1:00:29

I would bank episodes. So I think

1:00:31

I've like eight banked at the moment,

1:00:33

and that allows me to focus more

1:00:35

in the business at times, maybe focus

1:00:37

on a bit of a break every

1:00:39

once in a while, you know, you

1:00:41

know, in terms of like, like maybe

1:00:43

if I'm traveling, like maybe if I'm

1:00:45

traveling, maybe if I'm traveling, like maybe

1:00:47

if I'm traveling, maybe if I'm traveling,

1:00:49

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:00:52

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:00:54

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:00:56

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:00:58

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:01:00

like, that minimum threshold of four or

1:01:02

five six we're releasing a month and

1:01:04

that gives me some leeway because what

1:01:06

you realize is like you don't really

1:01:08

need a break from your content you

1:01:10

just need to take a break for

1:01:12

like an evening like I think a

1:01:14

lot of problems are solved by just

1:01:17

like maybe just going and like taking

1:01:19

a break in the sauna for like

1:01:21

four or five hours you know and

1:01:23

taking like an afternoon off like even

1:01:25

after our mastermind I was screwed sideways

1:01:27

on Mondays Monday I was sideways messed

1:01:29

I'd call it 8 p.m. I was

1:01:31

fine by 8 p.m. in the evening.

1:01:33

It's fun. You know in terms of

1:01:35

these bigger podcasts, how big is a

1:01:37

team behind them typically? You hear about

1:01:40

Stephen Bartlett talks a lot now about

1:01:42

the... probably the 25 people that are

1:01:44

working on diary of a CEO, maybe

1:01:46

more. I think his marketing girl, she

1:01:48

started doing quite a few podcasts of

1:01:50

her own now, isn't she? Grace. I

1:01:52

mean, someone like Chris Williamson or something,

1:01:54

you say he's doing three eps a

1:01:56

week. I mean, how much time will

1:01:58

he be spending other than being in

1:02:00

the studio recording it? I mean, is

1:02:02

there a lot of scripting? Is there

1:02:05

a lot of researching? Is there a

1:02:07

lot of planning? You know, like, let's

1:02:09

say for something like this with me

1:02:11

and you, you know, I had a

1:02:13

few questions I jotted down myself this

1:02:15

morning that I wanted to ask you

1:02:17

about, like a bit of a theme

1:02:19

to go through if you like, but

1:02:21

I guess because it's a space that

1:02:23

I send me understand that it fits

1:02:25

under the general... business and media thing

1:02:27

I can I might not get 10

1:02:30

hours of it without planning but I

1:02:32

can certainly do an hour and hour

1:02:34

and half and and you'll say something

1:02:36

that I want to pick up on

1:02:38

and I can I can never plan

1:02:40

a budget for that you know so

1:02:42

that's just the kind of way I

1:02:44

do things but you know when you've

1:02:46

got like a Stephen Bartlett interviewing Simon

1:02:48

Cal for example I mean is there

1:02:50

weeks of research that's going into this

1:02:53

where people are ringing people that Simon

1:02:55

knows and asking for ideas and questions

1:02:57

and I think the way that you

1:02:59

phrased it is way better. You know,

1:03:01

you're coming in and you're, you have

1:03:03

a general idea, you've a frame, you've

1:03:05

a positioning, and generally about two or

1:03:07

three different topics, but then you're allowing

1:03:09

like natural conversation to flow. I think

1:03:11

when you're going down like the author

1:03:13

route, you do need to read the

1:03:15

book, you do need to do that

1:03:18

extra bit of research, and then allow

1:03:20

that to come up. I think the

1:03:22

blow it in the back. It's also

1:03:24

kind of a little bit unnecessary. I

1:03:26

think the team you need to increase

1:03:28

the volume is necessary. Let me show

1:03:30

you a distinction. So let's say you're

1:03:32

doing the outreach, you might need yourself.

1:03:34

I think you should do the outreach

1:03:36

yourself in the beginning for sure, right?

1:03:38

Like you should really get down your

1:03:40

outreach. Also you're successful actually better when

1:03:43

it comes from you. Because if you

1:03:45

message me and you're like, oh, I

1:03:47

like that episode X, Y, Y, Z.

1:03:49

or like you did, I know you're

1:03:51

working with Dakota, like immediately there's more

1:03:53

of an attachment versus like Sally, the

1:03:55

PA, the PA, sending the message. When

1:03:57

it comes to the research, I used

1:03:59

to be very heavy on listening to

1:04:01

all the podcasts beforehand, all this kind

1:04:03

of stuff. I think that used to

1:04:06

put me in a box and you

1:04:08

used to take the love out of

1:04:10

it. Because what I found is, you'll

1:04:12

find it's interesting. So everyone kind of

1:04:14

followed the... Black Studio, like, you know,

1:04:16

heavy scripts approach in 2023, 2024, they

1:04:18

were trying to be like Chris Williamson,

1:04:20

but they were not trying to beat

1:04:22

themselves. Whereas last year I kind of

1:04:24

identified that like, look, these guests don't

1:04:26

like that. These guests don't like when

1:04:28

you try to catch them out or

1:04:31

pull some fucking statistic from some health

1:04:33

paper to catch them out. Instead, let's

1:04:35

have a natural conversation, so we move

1:04:37

more into this. We change a setting

1:04:39

here, we change a setting, I often

1:04:41

record on couches and stuff now, it

1:04:43

changes the relationship dynamic and the social

1:04:45

dynamic, which allows people to be more

1:04:47

open. So I found that the less

1:04:49

work I put in the scripting or

1:04:51

idea generation, and the more natural I

1:04:53

leave the conversation flow, the better they

1:04:56

show performance and relationship I built, most

1:04:58

important part. Because a lot of the

1:05:00

guys who are going super overly scripted,

1:05:02

they're just trying to catch you below.

1:05:04

Let's be... pure and simple. They're trying

1:05:06

to get short from coming to catch

1:05:08

you below. Whereas if you are truly

1:05:10

building a relationship game, you don't need

1:05:12

that. We have the operation team. But

1:05:14

then that's kind of like your setup

1:05:16

pre-production. Post-production, I do think that's when

1:05:19

you can start ramping up things more.

1:05:21

Like you need a good designer, dude.

1:05:23

You need a good operator. You need

1:05:25

a good copyator. Right. Can you improve

1:05:27

that way to AI for sure? But

1:05:29

I think it. Even though AI has

1:05:31

become amazing and it's a huge part

1:05:33

of our company, especially for writing and

1:05:35

basically understanding the tonality of the guest

1:05:37

and, sorry, of the host, I think

1:05:39

like the AI platforms for clips, shit.

1:05:41

Even some of the titles, shit, you

1:05:44

still need a good type, right. for

1:05:46

a title. But we'll get to the

1:05:48

point whereby that will help you leverage

1:05:50

it. But like I'm seeing the biggest

1:05:52

guys in in the online space like

1:05:54

an Eman Gadzi, Tyler Lopez, all these

1:05:56

guys still run short form production teams

1:05:58

and they run 20, 30, 40 editors

1:06:00

like Luke Balmer has like a hundred

1:06:02

editors or some shit and they're running

1:06:04

the sub accounts right? because that there's

1:06:06

so much value in repurposed. It's funny

1:06:09

you mentioned like Ty for example who

1:06:11

I mean I again I've subscribed to

1:06:13

his podcast and I know Ty I've

1:06:15

you know I've done a couple of

1:06:17

his his mentorship things with some people

1:06:19

in his team but he I mean

1:06:21

he has a very unique style doesn't

1:06:23

he where he just seems disorganized as

1:06:25

fuck. Dude that's the best way to

1:06:27

put it and he's all over the

1:06:29

place bro and he can I mean

1:06:32

I mean he makes an Irishman look

1:06:34

quiet doesn't he can fucking talk and

1:06:36

it just seems to break every rule

1:06:38

yeah of you know of planning of

1:06:40

getting the hook at the beginning and

1:06:42

all these kind of things and he

1:06:44

can literally stand on a treadmill in

1:06:46

his kitchen you know walking whilst chopping

1:06:48

a bolognaise or something and giving a

1:06:50

two and a half hour lecture. I

1:06:52

mean the guy is very sharp guy,

1:06:54

I mean he's got some incredible depth

1:06:57

of knowledge on certain subjects and you

1:06:59

think who's ever listened to this but

1:07:01

he gets hundreds of thousands if not

1:07:03

millions of views and there's one of

1:07:05

the things I've thought about recently when

1:07:07

I've been listening to his podcast like

1:07:09

his episodes don't seem to... So follow

1:07:11

the rules, like there's no intro, there's

1:07:13

no, there's no breaks, there's no, there's

1:07:15

no set up, I mean, okay, by

1:07:17

the end of the episode it's got

1:07:19

a text, one, two, three, tie, you

1:07:22

know, if you want to, if you

1:07:24

want to connect with me on this

1:07:26

thing, but you do you think, how

1:07:28

does he get people so, so deep

1:07:30

into it? It's a parody piece. Like

1:07:32

he comes with the credibility and authority,

1:07:34

and I know people would say different

1:07:36

things about tie it. but like he's

1:07:38

the OG of the online business base.

1:07:40

Like he just did the thing, made

1:07:42

a shit ton of money, ran up

1:07:44

a ton of money, got a bunch

1:07:47

of customers, those people then, not necessarily

1:07:49

maybe listen anymore, but that gives him

1:07:51

credibility to come in and break the

1:07:53

rules, right? And I, and you don't

1:07:55

need to follow the rules by any

1:07:57

means, but I just mean, that's why

1:07:59

I've listened to his podcast and I

1:08:01

listened to one with Logan for a

1:08:03

good friend of mine. Of the 50

1:08:05

minutes, I'm pretty sure, I'm pretty sure.

1:08:07

I'm pretty sure he's, I'm pretty sure

1:08:10

he's. Oh, so the time was speaking,

1:08:12

not letting language. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It

1:08:14

was like literally 47 minutes. I think

1:08:16

I checked. And I was like, this

1:08:18

is crazy. Like, this shit is actually

1:08:20

crazy. So there's obviously going to be

1:08:22

nuances like that. But again, it's credibility.

1:08:24

It's like, you know, Elon Musk coming

1:08:26

on smoking weed and Joe Rogan, right?

1:08:28

That was anybody else. No one would

1:08:30

have cared as much. So there's always

1:08:32

going to be that credibility piece. But

1:08:35

you made a medical point. The problem

1:08:37

for young guys is they don't have

1:08:39

the authority and they don't have the

1:08:41

credibility. So they try to falsify the

1:08:43

credibility with the Lambeau, the Rolex, or

1:08:45

just making shit up. Whereas like when

1:08:47

you have the receipts and you bring

1:08:49

the receipts into the conversation and you're

1:08:51

like, I built this business, I'm doing

1:08:53

this, I have this credibility, that lands

1:08:55

so much more for you then to

1:08:57

kind of be flexible. You can fuck

1:09:00

with it, you can do a tie

1:09:02

on it, you can do a 180

1:09:04

on it. but you need to ultimately

1:09:06

have the receipts or at least be

1:09:08

in the pursuit of doing it because

1:09:10

the way that I break it down

1:09:12

is that if you're not an expert

1:09:14

that's completely fun but just don't try

1:09:16

to pretend to be the expert when

1:09:18

you're the student be the student be

1:09:20

it Tim Ferris be Chris Williamson allow

1:09:23

yourself to be the student people will

1:09:25

like you for being more humble as

1:09:27

the student and that they'll take a

1:09:29

more liking to you but the issue

1:09:31

where all this breaks down is when

1:09:33

you have a young guy who has

1:09:35

no background and tries to become the

1:09:37

expert, tries to portray himself as the

1:09:39

answer, whereas if you are a bit

1:09:41

of experience in a certain area, leave

1:09:43

that be. Like allow yourself to share

1:09:45

those insights, but then don't put yourself

1:09:48

off to the rest of the world.

1:09:50

world. Don't try to box yourself off.

1:09:52

Well listen, I want a slight change

1:09:54

of direction just to wrap up with,

1:09:56

which is for anyone listening to the

1:09:58

audio version, you won't know that Darren

1:10:00

sat here as quite possibly the most

1:10:02

under-dressed and relaxed looking guest. I actually

1:10:04

compared to my usual episodes, I feel

1:10:06

like I've dressed up for this, especially

1:10:08

that we're in barbing. But no jokes

1:10:10

aside, you... in the little time that

1:10:13

I've spent with you and you know

1:10:15

what I've heard you say as well

1:10:17

I mean you live very much a

1:10:19

relaxed life I would think. on your

1:10:21

terms. I think when we started the

1:10:23

mastermind the other day, one of the

1:10:25

things you were talking about at the

1:10:27

beginning was how you structured your life

1:10:29

and your business to be around the

1:10:31

fact that I forget all the things

1:10:33

you said because I'm personal to you,

1:10:36

but that you want to live in

1:10:38

Bali, you want to train twice a

1:10:40

day and whatever those things were. But

1:10:42

whatever they were, they were clearly important

1:10:44

things to you that you now structure

1:10:46

your life in that way. How long

1:10:48

have you thought like this and how

1:10:50

I guess how long have you been

1:10:52

trying to fit that into your life

1:10:54

and and do you think that for

1:10:56

example The business that ever suffers because

1:10:58

you want to bring in the You

1:11:01

know the important parts of your personal

1:11:03

life and I guess it was just

1:11:05

something that very struck with me but

1:11:07

you know something I've talked about a

1:11:09

lot lately is you're like be careful

1:11:11

what you optimize for yeah and that

1:11:13

you know 20 odd years ago if

1:11:15

you have asked me where I wanted

1:11:17

to be in life I want to

1:11:19

make a load of money and if

1:11:21

I look at myself now I say

1:11:23

what I've done what I achieved what

1:11:26

I wanted to do I've made a

1:11:28

load of money has it fuck because

1:11:30

I'm just a very well-paid hamster where

1:11:32

you know I can't okay listen I

1:11:34

can't take days off Sometimes I don't

1:11:36

want to take things, not them off

1:11:38

because I kind of love what I

1:11:40

do, but also so many of my

1:11:42

businesses are... so many of my activities

1:11:44

or maybe so many of my possessions

1:11:46

are, if I stop doing what I'm

1:11:49

doing, they aren't still going to be

1:11:51

there. Maybe it's going to take a

1:11:53

few months, you know, not the few

1:11:55

days that I exaggerate to myself, it's

1:11:57

going to be, but money and freedom,

1:11:59

money and happiness, I think they're all

1:12:01

in very different buckets. And you know,

1:12:03

as I've gotten older, that... optimization for

1:12:05

freedom and optimization for happiness, which by

1:12:07

the way you can't have either of

1:12:09

those two without some money, but going

1:12:11

after money in isolation has been a

1:12:14

historical mistake I think, and you know

1:12:16

you as a as a guy almost

1:12:18

almost young enough to be my son,

1:12:20

you know, appear from the outside to

1:12:22

have gotten that part very right from

1:12:24

an early age. So I think I'm

1:12:26

still optimizing for the business. But I've

1:12:28

structured my life in a way that

1:12:30

everything is focused on the business and

1:12:32

doesn't take away from other aspects. Let

1:12:34

me give an example. So, like I

1:12:36

don't have children, I don't have a

1:12:39

mortgage. I'm risk- You don't have what?

1:12:41

I don't have what? I don't have

1:12:43

children? I don't have what? I don't

1:12:45

have children? I don't have what? I

1:12:47

don't have children? I don't have children?

1:12:49

I don't have the downside of like,

1:12:51

oh, I don't have the protection. but

1:12:53

I'm doing it from a position of

1:12:55

everything else feeds into it. So I

1:12:57

can mention about the gym. The gym

1:12:59

for me feeds into the business. I

1:13:02

was bodybuilding when I was a kid.

1:13:04

I still like I'm training as a

1:13:06

bodybuilder but I train in a bodybuilder

1:13:08

but I train in a way to

1:13:10

be able to make sure that I

1:13:12

get the most out of my business,

1:13:14

my energy, everything like that. Same with

1:13:16

my food. All my food is taken

1:13:18

care of, that's optimized for the business

1:13:20

and everything. G100% helps the business. Because

1:13:22

before that, I was just a DJ,

1:13:24

right? It was a pair. and drinking,

1:13:27

doing all the dumb shit. And she's

1:13:29

the business because she, not because she

1:13:31

works in it, but because she supports

1:13:33

you and makes you a better person.

1:13:35

It's the balance of the energy. Like

1:13:37

I'm super logical, like super to the

1:13:39

point, all over work. Like I'll just

1:13:41

do, I'll do like the 100 hours

1:13:43

a week if I don't want to

1:13:45

have like that ebb and flow, where

1:13:47

I was like, I'll get more out

1:13:49

of my business in less time. by

1:13:52

having like almost like a balanced relationship.

1:13:54

It's like a weird thing, right? And

1:13:56

like at least we'll feed in as

1:13:58

well, like Alaska, like, oh, what you

1:14:00

think of this, I have this message,

1:14:02

need to respond this way, I need

1:14:04

to keep it a bit more empathetic,

1:14:06

like how would I, how would I

1:14:08

do that for my super logical brain?

1:14:10

So it's fed into that. And the

1:14:12

reason being is because like for a

1:14:15

lot of my life, you know, as

1:14:17

I said like the money component is

1:14:19

like, which sets me up for the

1:14:21

freedom. So again, we talked to me

1:14:23

before that I don't need anything I

1:14:25

wanted. And because I wanted, that allows

1:14:27

it honestly to come towards me. It's

1:14:29

very badly to say that, but it

1:14:31

is, right? It's like the less needy

1:14:33

I need to be around it, the

1:14:35

less needy I need to be around

1:14:37

it, the more it gets attracted to

1:14:40

me. So then we give an example.

1:14:42

I spoke about we had a client

1:14:44

this morning, very big client, they're doing

1:14:46

a lot of changes in the company

1:14:48

and the company and the company and

1:14:50

the company and everything. I could have.

1:14:52

work around this, I want to be

1:14:54

here, I want to do that, he

1:14:56

felt the big pressure come off and

1:14:58

now we're working together on like another

1:15:00

big deal, right? I think the fact

1:15:02

that I'm more open to this, it's

1:15:05

more like I need to get this

1:15:07

funnel to work versus I want to

1:15:09

do it, so it's curiosity. I know

1:15:11

you're interviewing James tomorrow and James is

1:15:13

a big influence on me around that

1:15:15

which is like understanding what I'm optimizing

1:15:17

for, and how do I create the

1:15:19

constraints in the business to allow that

1:15:21

to happen? So, whether that's on our

1:15:23

education business, whether that's on like personal

1:15:25

relationships, but again, like I've sacrificed everything

1:15:28

to get here, like let's be very

1:15:30

clear, like all friendships when I was

1:15:32

younger had to sacrifice, because I've changed,

1:15:34

like I've just become a different person,

1:15:36

right? And you ask about how long

1:15:38

this has been, I've kind of... I've

1:15:40

had like that kind of I guess

1:15:42

like dragging inside me for a long

1:15:44

time that has been put out but

1:15:46

now I have a higher self worth

1:15:48

to myself because like I think the

1:15:50

money seems kind of ridiculous but making

1:15:53

the money that gives you a better

1:15:55

self worth of yourself because you're not

1:15:57

super insecure right and I think now

1:15:59

that I've learned the skills of marketing

1:16:01

communication sales fulfillment operation systems I can

1:16:03

kind of have a detachment. to the

1:16:05

money. I'm like, oh, it's fucking fantastic.

1:16:07

We made 15K, 20K, 30K, 40K, 40K

1:16:09

today. But I'm not attached to it.

1:16:11

My identity is not wrapped up in

1:16:13

it. You know, and at the end

1:16:15

of the day, right, like I grew

1:16:18

up, fuck all money, true union, I

1:16:20

had chicken and rice, and I had

1:16:22

$10 membership, I can do that tomorrow,

1:16:24

I'd be perfectly happy. I still, I

1:16:26

need chicken rice every day, and so,

1:16:28

I just, just go to just go

1:16:30

to the same. I do not want

1:16:32

to not live up to my own

1:16:34

expectations of I set to myself my

1:16:36

own standards because I know that we

1:16:38

can do much better things and I

1:16:41

enjoy it right this curiosity there this

1:16:43

creativity there I'm looking at our products

1:16:45

and services and I'm like oh maybe

1:16:47

we can change this maybe we can

1:16:49

help someone more like this instead of

1:16:51

being like super fixed like I need

1:16:53

this to work and a big thing

1:16:55

from a mastermind was I find that

1:16:57

like people that are playing much more

1:16:59

of this finite game of just super

1:17:01

anxious very needy, very insecure, very deterministic,

1:17:03

whereas much more of the infinite game

1:17:06

is much more like this is super

1:17:08

creative, like I really enjoy this. Even

1:17:10

the studio, right? It's like, ah, what

1:17:12

else? Like this morning, I remember I

1:17:14

came in and set up the lights

1:17:16

and I was like, maybe I want

1:17:18

to, maybe I want to go to

1:17:20

a fucking store and put a table

1:17:22

back there later, or like a massive

1:17:24

thing back there. I was like, oh,

1:17:26

maybe that could be cool. And then

1:17:28

I could be cool, where could be

1:17:31

cool. And then I could be cool.

1:17:33

Where could be cool. Where could be

1:17:35

cool. And then I could be cool.

1:17:37

Where could be cool. Where could be

1:17:39

cool. Where could be cool. Where could

1:17:41

be cool. Where could be cool. Where

1:17:43

could be cool. Where could be. Where

1:17:45

could be. Where could be. Where could

1:17:47

be. Where could be. Where could be.

1:17:49

Where could we. Where could we. Where

1:17:51

could we. Where could we. Where could

1:17:54

we. Where could we. Where could And

1:17:56

yeah, it's important and I think, just

1:17:58

quite young, I was able to identify

1:18:00

what I really don't want, looking at

1:18:02

observations of my parents, looking at observations

1:18:04

of people in Ireland. And that's my

1:18:06

anti goal. That's my antithesis of what

1:18:08

I want for the goal, but to

1:18:10

get to 10 million a year, which

1:18:12

is our target, I don't want to

1:18:14

have an anti goal of being fat,

1:18:16

being lazy, getting divorced. I don't want

1:18:19

that to myself. And it's important to

1:18:21

keep that on the scoreboard when I

1:18:23

started analyzing the P&L at the end

1:18:25

of the year. With Darren, it's been

1:18:27

a pleasure talking to you buddy. Thanks

1:18:29

a lot for hosting me to host

1:18:31

you. Thank you for everything as well.

1:18:33

Love the chat, love learning from you.

1:18:35

Before we go, should all of our

1:18:37

listeners have a podcast? Should everybody have

1:18:39

a podcast? Not everyone. Business owners should

1:18:41

have a podcast. Because it's going to

1:18:44

help their business. It's pretty simple. Relationships,

1:18:46

money, whatever you're optimising for, it will

1:18:48

definitely help it in 2020. Cool. Well,

1:18:50

if you want one. Contact Darren voice

1:18:52

we'll put all the all the all

1:18:54

the contact information in the show notes

1:18:56

and I'm looking forward to working with

1:18:58

you more myself buddy. Yeah, man. Thank

1:19:00

you so much for that dude Thanks

1:19:04

for tuning in to Know Bologs with

1:19:07

Matt Haycox. Today's conversation was packed with

1:19:09

actual insights and I'm super super grateful

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