0:07

You travel a lot, but you do not travel

0:09

a lot for pleasure. It seems like you're always

0:11

going places for work. When I first met you,

0:14

the way you traveled really confused me. What do you

0:16

mean? Well, I didn't travel much for work at all

0:18

back then. I mean, I had had the occasional trip

0:20

to go and do a church thing or to go

0:23

do a learning thing,

0:25

like a three-day seminar or something. I didn't travel much

0:27

for my job. But you were traveling all the time

0:29

for your job. You'd tell me where you were going.

0:31

You're like, I'm going to Houston. I'd be

0:33

like, oh, dude, there's this thing in Houston and there's

0:35

this other thing in Houston. How long are

0:37

you going to be there? And you just look at me like I was

0:39

an idiot. And your answer would always be,

0:42

you're not understanding. I'm going to be there for the

0:44

least amount of time possible. And I

0:46

don't think it's because you hate Houston or whatever cities

0:49

you were going to. I

0:51

have my theory, I guess, as to why you're in

0:53

and out so quick. Instead

0:55

of saying my theory, I'll just ask you, why do

0:57

you always get in and out of places so dang

0:59

fast when you pay the money to be there anyway?

1:03

First of all, I'm not even self-aware that I do that.

1:06

I guess it's because I want to be home with the family. Okay.

1:09

So I just go to the place, do the thing even

1:12

better if I can tack on two or three

1:14

things. I can think of

1:16

videos where I've gone to a place for a

1:18

thing and I just shot two other videos that

1:21

were within 50 miles. So

1:23

I try to do that kind of thing a lot. Family

1:25

is the thing. I like to sleep in my own bed and I

1:27

like to be around my kids. And yeah,

1:30

that's why I do that. And that would have been my

1:32

guess, more or less. But you

1:34

are ruthlessly efficient with your travel. You

1:37

do not leave yourself a lot of wiggle room in between.

1:39

Again, I don't know if you know this about

1:41

yourself, but when I'm like, oh, well, tell me more. What

1:43

are you going to be? Oh, you're in New York.

1:45

Cool. You're making a video. Well, what

1:48

all are you going to do? And you will reel

1:50

off your itinerary. And you're like from seven fifty seven

1:52

a.m. until ten forty five. I'll be filming this interview.

1:54

Then I will be going to this thing. Then I'll

1:56

have ten minutes to quick film a horse that's standing

1:58

on one leg in this museum that I've always wanted

2:01

to see and then I will quickly be going to this thing

2:03

then I'm going to do a second video from 2 in the

2:05

afternoon to 4.30 and then

2:07

my flight is at 4.31 yeah recently

2:10

I did I did that in

2:12

I went to Idaho mm-hmm and

2:14

I went from Idaho

2:16

to LA and yeah

2:18

I did I did exactly that it's ruthless

2:21

you're on flights a lot but I don't

2:24

know do you have fun I was gonna say it doesn't

2:26

seem like you're having any fun but maybe you should get

2:28

to speak to that yeah well

2:30

I appreciate you telling me about this

2:32

because I didn't realize this about myself but

2:34

there's no criticism well it's different so

2:37

I'm not traveling for pleasure I'm

2:39

traveling for work but at the same time it

2:42

may be a thing I really wanted to

2:44

see and then there's targets of opportunity along

2:46

the way because recently I did a video

2:48

about metal forming this new

2:50

thing called robo forming I

2:52

had a two-hour block and I

2:55

heard about this thing and I called him I was

2:57

like can I come do the thing or maybe the

2:59

guy emailed me or I forget but

3:01

it's like hey I'm going to LA let me put up the spreadsheet

3:03

because I have a spreadsheet people

3:06

will contact stuff you know smarter every day say

3:08

hey would you like to come see her thing

3:10

and I organize it by city and if I'm

3:12

going to the city I will look at the spreadsheet

3:14

and be like oh I have this much

3:16

time there's a thing there I can go do that thing

3:19

mm-hmm and so I try to maximize

3:21

the efficiency what do you do when

3:23

you travel well when

3:25

it's for work I did the same thing I try

3:27

to maximize for efficiency but not as hard as you

3:29

so I did a series

3:31

of videos in st. Augustine that I filmed

3:34

about a year ago as we're talking right

3:36

now mm-hmm and I left

3:38

myself a lot of wiggle room to

3:40

look at plants and fish and to

3:42

sit super long meals

3:45

on a rooftop st. Augustine and

3:47

watch the people go by and

3:49

I guess think the hot guy

3:53

like that I like this or time I want to

3:55

feel the place a little bit you know I want

3:57

to you know this about me you know that I

3:59

feel I feel like I sort of have a place in my

4:01

hip pocket as soon as I have a mental map of it.

4:04

The street goes here, that cathedral is right

4:07

there, oh, and there's that cool park right

4:09

across the way. It's important to

4:11

me for whatever reason, it's kind of how

4:13

I organize a big part of my invisible

4:15

life, the life of the mind for me

4:17

is very place-oriented, it's very geography and map.

4:20

It's very fish-oriented as well, I know this about you.

4:22

Yeah, that's true, fish, tennis, church, like those are all

4:24

things that I care about when I travel. If

4:27

I didn't line the right things up and I get to

4:29

a town, I'm like, I'm going to go interview these people

4:32

who are doing a religious thing that's nothing like what I

4:34

do or what I'm into but I just want to know

4:36

so I'm going to their house of faith or whatever. And

4:39

then I see a really cool one while I'm

4:41

driving in that I didn't catch in my research.

4:43

I feel huge regret, I could

4:46

be getting that as well. Sometimes

4:48

real creepy like I'll just go into churches where

4:50

I didn't call them in advance, just

4:52

kind of mill around and seem friendly. I just hope

4:54

somebody's going to come up and be like, so what,

4:56

you're just looking at the church? I'm

4:58

like, yeah, I like looking at churches. I mean, sometimes I

5:00

make videos about churches. I like to learn about other people's

5:02

churches. And my fantasy is that someday somebody's

5:05

going to be like, well, let's just do it right

5:07

now. What do you want to

5:09

know? Do you have a microphone? I'm like, oh,

5:11

I couldn't possibly, I insist, okay. I just pulled

5:13

the flute out of your sleeve like an anchorman.

5:15

Yeah, exactly like that. I couldn't possibly, I'm not

5:17

prepared at all. I

5:20

have a jazz flute ready to go. Yeah, I go

5:22

real hard on my travel as well. And

5:25

I leave a lot of room in between, but

5:27

it never seems to help me because what I

5:29

do requires advanced planning and all of that. But

5:31

you're just a ruthless advanced planner. You get in

5:33

so much. What I have

5:35

noticed though, is that I think I travel

5:37

for pleasure more than you. I am more

5:39

likely to put the family

5:41

in the vehicle and take a week off

5:43

and drive somewhere that makes no sense. Whereas

5:46

you're more likely to put the family in the vehicle and

5:48

do 36 hours of super intense

5:51

adventuring, dad ventures, I believe you

5:53

call them, or work travel. Those

5:55

seem to be the two things. I mean, I don't know.

5:57

It just seems like you haven't had the time for the...

6:00

your pleasure travel stuff that maybe some other folks

6:02

prioritize. I don't know, I just kind of wonder,

6:04

do you feel like you're missing out on stuff?

6:06

Are there places that you want to go see

6:08

that you haven't had the opportunity to yet? Yeah,

6:12

there are. And one of those

6:14

places forever was Italy, and

6:17

you convinced me to do that. I don't know if

6:19

convinced is the right word. You weren't like, you should

6:21

do this. I was just standing there, man. But

6:25

I mean, it was our 20th

6:27

anniversary, and Tara and I decided

6:29

we were going to go somewhere for

6:31

us just for the marriage. Did

6:34

you do anything for work? Yeah,

6:37

I mean, I recorded some stuff.

6:39

I took a camera because I was like, you

6:41

know, if I don't take a camera and I

6:43

see the most amazing thing ever and I don't

6:45

record it, I will always regret that. Yeah, and

6:48

you took pictures for me. You took some orders

6:50

along the way. Just a couple. Hey, dude, I'm

6:52

working on a thing. Where are you at right now? There

6:55

should be a sculpture of a guy with wings, and

6:58

he's by a sign. Could you

7:00

take it at like six in the

7:02

evening from this angle, please? Thank you. You

7:05

know, that was my contribution to your trip. Work

7:07

orders the whole way. It was a

7:10

unique thing because we, like you said, we

7:12

don't do that. We don't travel for pleasure.

7:14

We usually have a thing we're doing. All

7:16

I've got is road trip to see us. I've

7:19

got Iceland for an anniversary trip with

7:21

your wife, last significant

7:24

anniversary ago. And

7:26

then your most recent significant anniversary, you

7:28

went to Italy. I've known you for

7:30

a long time. It's wild that

7:32

those are the only big ones that I can really

7:34

think of. I think that's it. We

7:37

did a, I think it

7:39

was like four days in Costa Rica, a

7:41

language school. Yeah, but that was practical. You

7:43

were doing something. You were gaining a skill.

7:46

Yeah, but I think that's it. I think that's it. I

7:48

think it's because, I don't know if this sounds stupid to

7:50

even say it. I'm nervous even talking about this. Feels

7:53

guilty? Like I feel guilty for

7:55

taking time off and doing, I

7:58

don't know if time off is the thing, but like. I'm

8:00

gonna go do this thing. I don't know

8:03

that feels strange that feels strange Does

8:06

travel make you feel refreshed when you do it

8:08

for fun? Yeah The

8:10

one who you do more. I don't know I

8:13

don't know. That's a good idea. Did your Italy trip make you

8:15

feel refreshed when you were done? I was

8:17

tired because we walked a lot. But yeah I'd

8:20

say mentally refreshed because it exposed us.

8:23

So what are my favorite things to

8:25

do in my entire life is Be

8:28

in a place With my wife.

8:30

I mean like it's like me and Tara

8:32

versus the thing and we don't speak the

8:34

language You know I'm saying I

8:37

do what about you? Yeah, same thing.

8:39

I would use a little different illustration you went

8:42

with combat I'm gonna go with Christmas But

8:46

for I mean for us like unwrapping

8:48

the present I can only unwrap the

8:50

present of each place once And

8:52

so before I go I try to read

8:54

a whole bunch of history and literature about

8:57

a place familiarize myself

8:59

with art and poetry and who these

9:01

people are and Where do they

9:03

come from and how do they think of themselves? And

9:05

what is the oldest historical through line

9:08

that I can trace that I understand

9:10

the story of from a given place

9:12

I'm visiting back to things. I

9:14

know on the history family tree. I like to

9:16

know that stuff But can I have

9:18

the antenna out for connections and

9:21

then my favorite thing to do is Get

9:24

dropped in a city for the first part of the trip

9:27

and figure it out. No idea.

9:29

Just solve it Well, one thing I know about

9:31

you is that when we first started talking you

9:33

were talking about Ancient Rome and

9:35

you were talking about the history

9:37

of thought in the West. I think is the way

9:39

you said it Is that right? Yeah, I like that.

9:41

And so you were talking about those things and you

9:44

had told me about going to Rome and Why

9:47

it was important to you and you had told

9:49

me about wanting to go back and look at

9:51

certain things like I can remember you You made

9:53

a video where Paul was in prison. Yeah,

9:56

and and you were explaining all that to

9:58

me. You're telling me me why this

10:00

specific spot is interesting. He said, well, you

10:03

know, the Catholic Church says this happened there.

10:05

We don't really know, but then this

10:07

is tradition says. And you

10:10

were telling me all those things and I thought it was fascinating.

10:12

And I don't know when it came time to, hey, we're going

10:14

to go to a place. Hearing you pun

10:17

intended romanticize all of this for so long,

10:19

I was like, man, I've got to see

10:21

that. Yeah. You just tapped into the word

10:23

that I have in mind. And then I

10:25

kind of wanted to pick your brain about

10:27

knowing that you went on this trip. For

10:30

me, the romantic joy of going

10:32

to a place with Camilla is

10:34

I just like seeing her in a different culture.

10:37

I like seeing her quite literally in

10:40

a different light. Every town, every

10:42

great city is lit different. It

10:44

feels different and almost like the little imperceptible

10:46

details of people you know real well are

10:48

a little bit different as they adapt to

10:50

that over the course of a couple of

10:52

days in terms of climate and culture and

10:55

everything. I've

10:57

never seen Camilla against the backdrop of Prague

10:59

and I really want to take her there.

11:02

I've had the opportunity to go to Prague

11:04

for work things on my own. I

11:06

don't want to unwrap the present without her because

11:10

then if we go, it's asymmetrical. Now I'm the

11:12

knower and I'm introducing her to a thing as

11:14

though I have ownership of it. I have the

11:16

ownership of Prague because I go once and I

11:18

still haven't gone. I want

11:21

whatever ownership I have, I want to be

11:23

shared completely equally with her and I

11:25

want to earn that ownership not by going

11:27

and ticking the boxes of the tourist destinations

11:29

you're supposed to see. I want

11:32

to earn it by getting lost and taking

11:34

risks and getting into weird corners

11:36

of things and going to the places that

11:38

aren't even really that interesting and that don't

11:40

make the tourist guides but that have some

11:43

obscure connection to some goofy little thing that

11:45

only I care about from forever ago. I

11:48

think she thrives on seeing me get excited about

11:50

that stuff and I thrive

11:53

on her savoring the beauty of

11:55

things and the carefree spirit that

11:57

she has when we travel. a

12:00

pretty carefree lady, but there's a lot of burdens

12:02

to raising three kids and keeping track of all

12:04

the dumb stuff I'm doing. She's

12:07

so light in the shoulders when I

12:09

take her places. There's an

12:11

elegance and a youthfulness and

12:13

a lightness that traveling together and

12:16

unwrapping the present together brings

12:18

out of her and to me that

12:20

is the pinnacle of romance for us.

12:23

New fresh stuff that

12:26

is rooted in old things we haven't encountered

12:28

yet. We love that. What?

12:32

What? I don't get it. What? What?

12:34

I was thinking about romance and

12:37

the pinnacle of romance and uh... Why?

12:42

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. The day-to-day

12:44

marriage stuff. I saw something online and I was

12:46

like I'm gonna try this and so the other

12:48

day there's a guy, there's

12:50

a guy, like hey honey come in

12:53

here. There's an exposed

12:55

stud in here. Talking

12:57

about, you know, like... Yes, well I know. I

13:00

can see where I get it. So, Tara comes

13:02

around the corner and she's like AHHH! WHAT

13:04

ARE YOU DOING?! So

13:09

maybe I need to work on the romance. That's

13:13

seriously your follow-up story to this

13:15

heartfelt crap about unwrapping the mysteries

13:17

of the old world together. Connecting

13:20

with our ancient roots. Check it out babe,

13:23

I'm naked. Hey

13:25

y'all! It's like the streak. Uh... Ray

13:28

Stevens? Yeah. No, there's

13:30

something about breaking free of the

13:33

day-to-day, like the everyday monotony of

13:35

feeling like ships in the night

13:37

passing. Well said. We did something

13:40

with this trip to Italy that was very

13:42

rare. We said how many days should we

13:44

go? And so we called in

13:46

all the favors, all the not

13:48

babysitting favors, you know, our parents

13:50

are awesome and they love their

13:52

grandchildren. But we just said

13:54

hey, we're gonna do this. Will

13:57

you help us? And they're like yeah, of course. for

14:00

14 days, which was nuts.

14:02

Impressive. I think it was 14.

14:04

Did that fuel? Maybe it was 10. Weird

14:06

too? Did that make you feel nervous and

14:08

apprehensive because you're used to traveling for 11 hours when

14:12

you take flights to go places and then coming

14:14

straight back? A thousand percent, yeah. The

14:16

open-endedness was weird? Yeah. Yeah,

14:19

the open-endedness was weird. The financial investment

14:21

was, I mean, it was just something we had

14:23

prepared for for a really long time. Yeah. And

14:26

so, that was nerve-wracking. I

14:29

know you make a decision, like

14:31

this is a big part of

14:33

your finances for your life, is

14:35

making these investments on the experiential

14:37

with your family. Yes. This is

14:40

valuable to you and you choose to live

14:42

in a smaller house so you can do

14:44

more of these types of things. And

14:47

I don't know that I like the way that sounded, but you

14:50

know what I'm trying to say. But it's true. No, you

14:52

live modestly. We prioritize this.

14:54

I have strategic reasons parenting-wise.

14:58

Also, it keeps my brain from

15:00

getting stale. I want to see the things I talk

15:02

about from the past. I want

15:04

to feel the things I talk about. So

15:06

you've told me all about Rome. You can

15:08

only imagine the amount of prep I did

15:10

going in. So I listened to

15:12

Rubicon by Tom Holland. Great book. You

15:15

put me on the Persian fire. So

15:17

I feel like I had this whole

15:19

experience of learning about Persia, how that

15:21

morphs into Greek power and then Greek

15:23

transforms the Romans, the rise of the

15:25

Romans. And so I'm trying to

15:27

understand all this. And so I

15:30

go to Rome. We ended our trip in Rome. And

15:33

I was like, man, I want to see where

15:35

Julius Caesar was killed. I

15:37

want to see that. I mean, that was

15:39

a big, you know, YouTube rutist. I mean,

15:42

it's a big deal. Yeah. If you feel you

15:44

found it. Do I understand correctly

15:46

that it is a like a cat

15:48

pound? Like

15:50

it's a place for abandoned cats now? Do I

15:52

understand that? Yeah, it's a pretty quirky spot tucked

15:55

in the middle of all of the theater. Pompeii,

15:57

is that what it was called? It's

16:00

just that that's where stray cats are

16:02

now. Uh, yes. I mean, there's

16:04

stray cats everywhere, but okay. I

16:06

have a question for you about the forum, but

16:09

before I go there, to me, it

16:11

sounds like the first objective of your Italy

16:13

trip was romance.

16:16

It just goes somewhere beautiful and

16:19

romantic and different and savor being with

16:21

somebody you love. Fair statement. Absolutely. That

16:23

was the point. And it

16:25

could have been anywhere on the planet. That

16:28

was what we wanted to do. We wanted

16:30

to go somewhere where we were uncomfortable and

16:32

we found comfort in each other, and then we

16:35

also tried to navigate something that we didn't know

16:37

how to do together. That was the point. So

16:39

if you could have gone anywhere, why

16:41

was Italy a good fit for drawing those things

16:43

out? Because we didn't speak the language

16:46

and I can navigate in

16:48

Spanish. I don't, I wouldn't say

16:51

I speak Spanish, but I can get by Germany. We've

16:56

done that. Tara's mother grew up speaking German

16:58

and her grandmother did. You're fairly

17:00

handy on the basics of German as well. There's not

17:02

much there. Thank you for the compliment. But I can,

17:04

I told you about the time I called the young

17:06

man handicapped on the train. Dude, just take the compliment

17:09

and move on. But

17:13

Italy, it's just different. We just

17:16

wanted to see what the culture was. Plus

17:18

we like Italian food as we understood it

17:20

to be from the American perspective. It sounds

17:22

like maybe you learned lessons about it. Maybe,

17:24

maybe. Okay. Okay. So you

17:26

plan a very unusual trip. I do not know

17:28

you to take these kinds of trips. Clearly

17:31

you put a ton of thought into it. I mean,

17:33

Tara was asking questions about Italy

17:35

a year in advance of

17:37

this trip. Maybe, was it that far?

17:40

Yeah. I mean, yeah. Selling her on

17:42

the idea of Italy was hard

17:44

because we had thought about other places,

17:46

but when we shifted to Italy, it

17:49

was a hard time in our lives. We were trying to, just

17:52

logistically, we've had a lot going on. And so

17:54

the idea of breaking free

17:56

from the day to day and doing this

17:59

was difficult. For both of us. Yeah,

18:01

it was hard. But once she decided He's

18:04

like we're in once

18:07

she made that decision We got the

18:09

Bible which is the Rick Steves

18:11

travel book for Italy Yeah, and

18:13

then you know about Rick Steve's I do he's

18:15

amazing And so once we got that it

18:17

was on like Donkey Kong man We're like we're gonna figure

18:19

this out and it was gonna be great and it was

18:22

it was awesome Where I want to end up here

18:24

is I I mean just know this question is

18:26

coming. I Want

18:28

your opinion? What

18:30

somebody should look for if they want to

18:32

do the romantic trip of a lifetime, okay

18:35

I'm very interested in what you learned about Breaking free

18:37

from all the normal stuff and going and doing something

18:39

that you love with someone you love But also I

18:41

really like Italy and I want to pick your brain

18:43

about that Did you go to Rome at

18:45

the beginning your trip or at the end? We ended in Rome

18:48

We started in Venice and then

18:50

we if I'm looking at the boot. Yeah

18:52

with the toe facing to the left Mm-hmm

18:55

We started at the top right of the boot. Okay,

18:57

like as you pull it up on your leg That's

18:59

where Venice is right? Mm-hmm And then

19:01

we crossed the top of the boot and

19:03

then we went to the other side. I

19:05

think Pisa Milan Yeah, no, no,

19:07

we didn't go to Milan. We did briefly

19:10

go to Pisa like for two hours. Okay,

19:13

we drove across Tuscany and Then

19:15

we went to Florence is Florence

19:17

and Tuscany. Yes so

19:20

northern This is what

19:22

I would say Tuscany Umbria Lazio

19:26

is north to south from Florence down

19:28

to Rome. I think see I recognize

19:30

all those words I would say the

19:33

purpose of the trip was Familiarization

19:36

not mastery that said

19:38

that's a phrase we said recently we

19:40

took the kids to Washington DC for

19:42

they're like Hey, let's talk about our

19:44

government trip. Mm-hmm. And Tara said

19:46

hey, the point here is Familiarization

19:48

not mastery we did that and

19:51

so I don't really have a good vibe for

19:53

everything in Italy You have the mental map yet.

19:55

I don't kind of not of the whole nation.

19:58

In fact, we didn't even get to the southern country I

20:00

don't think I've never been to the southern coast

20:02

we started in Venice which I loved and then

20:04

we went over to Florence That's right. So we

20:07

went over to Florence and then I don't

20:09

know where we went from there I do know I

20:11

drove across Tuscany as

20:13

you go to Siena. Yes, you

20:15

did. Yes. That's the walled city.

20:18

It's Awesome, the

20:20

coolest town we spent I mean is that

20:22

top ten for you coolest towns you've ever

20:24

been to yes Yeah, no doubt

20:26

decisively. So so they have this thing in Siena,

20:28

correct me if I'm wrong because you're the authority

20:31

They have this thing called Paulo that sounds right.

20:33

This is the horse thing dude So

20:36

being from Alabama, we have Alabama

20:38

versus Auburn, which I think is

20:41

a very significant rivalry Maybe

20:44

Ohio State Michigan is up there

20:46

as well. Your in-state rivalry affects

20:50

Relationships and how people talk with each

20:52

other. Yeah in this state It

20:54

pushes right to the limit your southern

20:56

hospitality and charm So

20:58

Siena is a walled city.

21:01

Mm-hmm and each section of

21:03

the city has its own team so

21:05

to speak Mm-hmm you have

21:07

like this horse that you root for

21:09

and they have a horse race in

21:11

the center of the city They bring

21:13

in all this sand and it's not a

21:15

square. It's like a weird dodeca gan shape

21:17

It's weird. They have this horse

21:20

race around the center of the

21:22

city for like four minutes Or

21:25

maybe it's like that's it. That's the whole thing. That's the

21:27

whole thing But like they I think

21:29

they have two of them a year if I'm not mistaken.

21:31

Were you there for one? No, I wish God, that would

21:33

be awesome. I've never seen but we chose teams

21:35

while we were there Oh, who do you root for

21:37

the goose the one with the there's a flag and

21:39

it has a goose on it And I used to

21:42

know the name of it. I hate the goose one.

21:44

I'm with team wolf. I like the wolf one Really?

21:46

I think Tara was going for the shell one. I

21:48

don't know if there's a wolf one I just was

21:50

gonna whatever you said. I was gonna hate your team.

21:52

Yeah Your

21:55

team could have been like there's one with a drawing of a

21:57

guy it looks just like you and I still would have hated

21:59

it Oh, exactly Okay, they all have these teams

22:01

that they root for and it's just awesome

22:04

It's just so in they care and it

22:06

matters and they said in sienna you're

22:08

born and then Paolo

22:12

and then you die That's how they

22:14

say it. So like that's really all

22:16

that matters. There's not life. There's Paolo Do

22:18

you see the quantum of solace the James

22:20

Bond movie? No, it's not good It's

22:23

maybe the second Daniel Craig James Bond

22:25

movie. Okay, but it opens during

22:27

if it's called this Paolo Yeah,

22:29

I don't remember the name I'm gonna what you said,

22:31

but it opens with that

22:34

going on in the background and then there's

22:36

a spy versus spy combat Running

22:38

across terracotta roofs and shooting

22:40

guns There's the famous ending

22:42

of that chase sequence is in a church

22:45

bell tower. That's under construction Mm-hmm, and like

22:47

the lines are taking them up and down

22:49

and they're doing like this weightless Shoot

22:52

at each other as one goes up and one goes

22:54

down kind of thing and ultimately bond

22:56

gets Wrapped up around the

22:59

waist in one and lets himself

23:01

roll down like an unfurling scroll and

23:03

then freezes Three feet

23:05

before he lands at the bottom and bang Shoots

23:09

the other spy. Yeah, obviously the smile you trained for

23:11

that sort of thing. Yeah, that's right Perfectly

23:13

more of it now in the what do

23:15

you call? What do you call big churches in? Italy

23:18

they have a name Duomo. Okay in

23:20

the Duomo in sienna. It was a

23:22

big deal I was told they

23:25

were uncovering the floor for the first time

23:27

in a really really long time. What were

23:29

they looking for? Well, it was there were

23:31

mosaics They had restored some of

23:33

the mosaics the mosaics on the floor

23:36

in sienna or some of the most Intricate

23:39

designs out of tile and stone

23:41

in all of Italy. It was a big

23:44

deal. They're like hey You got here

23:46

at the right time because you can go to the

23:48

Duomo and you can see the floor. I'm like, okay

23:50

Whatever, whatever that sounds great. Okay, we'll

23:52

go see it We went dude.

23:55

I'm not Catholic. And so I

23:57

don't get into some of the It

24:00

feels like sometimes people are praying to

24:02

statues and stuff for light and candles

24:04

and stuff. I don't

24:06

do all that. I mean, that's not a terrible characterization.

24:08

The Protestants have more of a belief

24:10

that people die and then they are present

24:12

with the Lord and

24:15

not exactly accessible when somebody's

24:17

dead. So if you

24:19

run into just a random American Christian, that'll tend

24:22

to be how they think about dead Christians. We'll

24:24

be reunited later. So for example, my

24:26

kid brother is a Christian. He is dead. I

24:29

don't theologically believe myself to have any

24:31

kind of access to him through

24:34

a mediary or anything like that. I mean, it still

24:36

hasn't stopped me a couple of times in moments of

24:38

grief from being like, Hey God, I don't know

24:40

if you pass along messages or whatever, but if the Catholics are

24:42

right on that one, like, could you

24:44

just say to my brother, whatever? I think time

24:46

works probably different there, but you

24:48

miss him today. I don't know. Just

24:50

miss him. Miss my kid brother.

24:52

Don't have another one. So if you don't relay

24:54

messages, it's cool because of how you're like the divine

24:57

sustainer of all of existence and everything. I'm

24:59

sure your plan and reasoning for not

25:01

doing like message relays is a

25:03

super good one. So that's fine. Did you ask to

25:05

like pass along a nuggy or something like that?

25:07

No, but like a couple of jokes that I thought

25:09

were pretty funny and that were maybe right on

25:11

the edge for God to hear. So like, I don't

25:14

know. You probably knew what you were thinking. My

25:16

understanding is that the all knowing creator and sustainer of

25:18

all things is pretty aware of all the jokes.

25:20

So I just figured I couldn't offend him. I'll

25:23

try. I don't know. I

25:25

think if you're Catholic, you're allowed to do that. So

25:27

at any rate, the Catholics and the Orthodox have more

25:30

of an understanding of everybody

25:32

being alive at the same

25:35

time, sort of something that transcends time

25:37

a little bit more. And so the

25:39

role of the saints is very different, whereas a

25:41

Protestant would be like, I really respect all of

25:43

these people from the history of the Bible and

25:45

the church. That was a really honorable person. The

25:48

Catholics and Orthodox have more of a

25:50

structure and a criteria for that. And

25:53

in Orthodoxy, the Eastern version of the

25:55

church associated with Greece and modern day

25:57

Turkey and really all of Eastern Europe.

26:01

The idea is that that person

26:03

can be represented, drawn

26:06

as an icon, and somehow that is

26:08

a point of communion with that

26:10

person. I'm not an Orthodox, so I'm not saying it right. It's

26:12

a mystery. Catholics don't do

26:14

the icons the same way, but

26:16

representations of saints, statues, and

26:18

things like that. I mean, all of these

26:21

different groups, they say the same creeds, like

26:23

I believe in God the Father. Stuff that

26:25

you probably say in church. These are ancient words

26:27

that are the boundaries of Christian faith, but one

26:30

of the real differences between these groups that

26:32

can be very disorienting when you travel in

26:34

Italy, if you haven't been around this much,

26:36

is their understanding of our relationship with the

26:38

dead and what the timeline looks like on

26:40

that. For

26:42

the Catholics, the dead are

26:44

a little bit closer, and for the Orthodox, the

26:47

dead are a lot closer. For

26:49

the Protestants, it's more of a wait a

26:51

little while and we'll be back together kind

26:53

of thing. The art, it

26:55

just hits different. It feels different. I

26:58

assume that's what you were referencing when you were

27:00

talking about not being a Catholic and the stuff

27:02

that you were seeing there. Yeah, exactly. Thanks for

27:04

protecting me from myself there. That's not even one.

27:08

Sorry. No, absolutely. So

27:10

the spiritual connection with the rooms and

27:13

the art in the room maybe

27:16

doesn't hit as hard for me. However, some of

27:18

the things on the floor in Siena, the

27:21

mosaics, really stirred my

27:23

soul. What's different about them? It

27:27

was just unapologetically gruesome. I

27:29

know that sounds crazy. It doesn't. Keep

27:31

going. So like in

27:34

the Bible, there's this messiah that's been born,

27:36

this king, right? He's over here in

27:38

this little town, Bethlehem or something like that. There's

27:41

this dude, he's like, hey, so

27:43

there's a king, another king? Herod

27:46

the Great? Yeah. So

27:49

where's he at? Tell me, wise men, where's he

27:51

at? Okay, cool, no problem. And then

27:53

there's this order to kill all the innocents.

27:56

Kill all these little kids. If there's a boy under

27:58

this age, what was it? Two, three? Yeah, a

28:00

couple years of age in this town. Yeah, go

28:02

kill them. You know you're

28:04

reading the Christmas story. That's a few

28:06

lines. No, in

28:09

Seattle, we're gonna make a mosaic

28:12

of all these soldiers marching

28:14

on this town, grabbing

28:16

these babies, holding them up by their

28:19

foot and stabbing them with a sword

28:21

and just like blood going

28:23

everywhere and the mom screaming. And then

28:25

I thought to myself, oh

28:27

yeah, that was just a

28:29

few lines in the Bible, but if that order

28:31

was executed, there was a soldier that

28:33

had to do it. And there

28:36

was a mother that felt the pain, and then

28:38

there was, yeah, I got it that Joseph took

28:41

Jesus and Mary and fled to Egypt. And

28:43

a generational hole for that town.

28:46

And so it was, I don't know,

28:48

it just, it brought

28:50

the humanity to it in a

28:52

way that I had never considered. And so

28:55

I was like, whoa, okay. Huh.

28:57

Yeah, they didn't have YouTube videos of that event, did they?

29:00

But this is a pretty good representation. Granted,

29:03

all of the people in the art,

29:05

they were lily white. They were European

29:07

looking. They weren't of

29:09

Middle Eastern descent, which everywhere

29:12

Christianity's gone, people depict the

29:14

characters to look like themselves. We've

29:16

got Native American churches. I mean, we

29:19

live in a very Native American part

29:21

of the Mountain West. And

29:23

there's a ton of churches,

29:26

Episcopal, Lutheran, Evangelical, Baptist, and

29:29

the portrayals of all of these characters

29:32

look Native in their art. Why the heck wouldn't

29:34

it? Yeah. And one of the central themes

29:36

of Christianity is that God took

29:38

on flesh, came to

29:40

be with people, to be understood by

29:42

people. I think it's kind

29:45

of hard to understand someone who's infinite. But

29:47

God's like, yeah, I think this makes a little more sense. There

29:49

you go. And so the

29:52

idea of things being incarnational in

29:54

Christianity really lends itself

29:56

to people seeing themselves and their physical

29:58

attributes and their insights. environment in the

30:00

stories of the Bible, I published

30:03

a couple teeny tiny little shorts, no big

30:05

deal, from an Easter procession

30:07

that I went to in Costa Rica last year studying

30:10

Spanish down there. I took my kids to a Good Friday

30:12

procession. It's

30:15

a parade that does the Easter story,

30:17

the story of, well, the Good Friday

30:19

story, the story of Jesus' conviction under

30:21

Pontius Pilate, then all the abuse

30:23

he takes as he walks through the Catholic

30:25

stations of the cross. We don't have that

30:28

Protestantism, but most of them are in the

30:30

Bible. That's powerful, man! We walked along with

30:33

all of that. It affected my kids deeply,

30:35

but one of my favorite things about it

30:37

was that the Roman soldiers, their

30:40

helmets, what goes on top of a

30:42

Roman soldier helmet? It's like the red

30:45

comb. Yeah, the red comb, but it's

30:47

not. For them, like these super long

30:49

exotic bird of paradise feathers. Oh,

30:52

that looks like Mayan or Aztec

30:54

or something. That's cool. Why'd they

30:56

do that? Well, I don't know,

30:58

because it's super incarnational, and everybody everywhere

31:00

is gonna make the people

31:03

in these stories look like them. East

31:05

Asia, Sub-Saharan Africa. So yeah,

31:07

they were all lily white, but it's because it

31:09

was in Siena, so it makes sense to me.

31:11

It was neat. I liked it. Seeing the old

31:14

art was really interesting. I really liked that. The

31:16

one thing from the whole trip that was, you

31:18

know, we had a couple things we wanted to do. For

31:21

me, the thing was bucket list item

31:23

was Pompeii. Did you make it? We

31:25

did. Cool. I don't know that

31:28

we should talk about that. I mean, it's like a

31:30

whole thing. Like, we could talk just on

31:32

Pompeii. Let me just ask you this question. Okay, how'd

31:34

it make you feel? It made

31:36

me think about the whole Bible differently. Really?

31:40

Yes. Because I saw the

31:42

graffiti on the walls. For the third chair, not everybody

31:44

knows what the deal is with Pompeii. The very quick

31:46

version is in the 70s, 80s, 79. Yeah. 80, is

31:48

that right? August, maybe? Mm-hmm.

31:52

Mount Vesuvius erupted, which is a

31:54

big volcano right next to Naples.

31:56

That's the big famous city there.

31:58

South of Sorrento. area,

32:01

right? Yeah, and more or less buried

32:03

two towns. I can never say it

32:05

right. Herculaneum. Herculaneum, that sounded good, and

32:08

Pompeii. And Pompeii, Pliny

32:10

the Elder was there, shuttling

32:13

people back and forth out of the bay to

32:15

try to save people. And so there's

32:17

a very vivid description, maybe written

32:19

by Pliny the Younger. Well,

32:22

Pliny, they might have both been there.

32:24

And so it captured the imagination of everybody

32:27

forever. And all the way up into the 1700s,

32:29

everybody's like, something

32:31

from the era of the Bible is

32:33

still just sitting there underneath some dirt

32:35

somewhere right around here. And I think in the 1700s,

32:38

they figure out where it was, and they've been

32:40

excavating since. They're not done. It's a

32:43

whole city that's just frozen in time

32:45

from the first century AD. That's just

32:47

insane. Yeah. That that could exist. I'll

32:49

just give you a snapshot. So I told

32:52

Tara, I was like, this is the thing. This is

32:54

the one thing I would like to do. She's

32:57

like, absolutely. So she plans this beautiful itinerary.

32:59

She's really gotten good at this, where she'll

33:01

say, okay, we're gonna do this. And

33:03

you know, when we went to Iceland for our

33:06

15th anniversary, she's like, we're gonna go to this

33:08

place for this amount of time. And

33:10

then our next waypoint is here. And then

33:13

she plans in randomness for me. Good.

33:16

You know, she's like, structure. And then

33:18

there's your randomness. You do whatever you want.

33:20

We can sit, you know, we can sit

33:22

on a beach or we can go to a bookstore or

33:25

whatever it is. That's what we did the

33:27

whole trip. But in Pompeii, that was the only thing I asked

33:29

for. It was amazing. But

33:31

you ask how it made me feel. Yeah.

33:33

When we started, we walked in to

33:36

where the port would have been. Okay.

33:38

And the person that was with us

33:40

said, okay, this is the, how do

33:43

I, well, I mean, this is the

33:45

brothel. You're gonna walk in

33:47

the brothel. Were you seriously looking for a tamer way

33:50

to say that than brothel? Yeah. Cause I think this

33:52

is easy. Yeah. This is where the women of the

33:54

night. Yeah. Yeah. I was trying to figure it out.

33:56

This is the brothel. And so I was

33:59

like, how do you know? it's a brothel and

34:02

the guy that was with us said you'll

34:04

see and I was like okay well

34:06

whatever and so we walk in and imagine this is

34:08

a whole episode did long

34:15

story short it was very clear it was a brothel we

34:18

can talk about that later but what it did

34:20

for me what visiting that town did for me

34:22

is it made me realize that the culture we

34:25

think today I'm in a culture so awful we're

34:27

but no we're nothing we

34:30

got nothing the culture was so

34:33

vile back then and so

34:35

when I think of Sunday School flannel

34:37

graphs of Bible stories and oh look there

34:39

he is with this coat you know the

34:41

many colors you know and you know we're

34:43

thinking about Bible stories and like oh how

34:46

tame it was heck no dude this

34:48

was a vile culture

34:50

it's a snapshot from 79 AD

34:53

so that's 40 years after

34:55

Christ it just brought it I

34:58

guess more like 50 years it just to

35:00

me it made it real like I'm

35:02

walking the streets I'm seeing

35:04

the engineering I can imagine

35:06

myself to be a Roman engineer how would

35:09

I solve this problem they did pretty good

35:11

huh oh you know what in that case

35:13

they did better than I would have done the only difference

35:15

between me and them is that I have

35:17

more technology at my disposal there's

35:19

been more errors made in engineering between

35:22

them and me learn from to learn

35:24

from that's the difference it

35:27

was life-altering I think seeing that

35:29

and you told me it would be yeah yeah

35:32

it is for me it was when I unwrapped the

35:34

present and it has been when I've had the opportunity

35:36

to go back I've been lucky

35:38

enough to get to Italy a handful of times

35:41

I mean that almost all of them have been for work

35:43

yeah it's what you do I mean you go and you

35:45

I mean you've researched stuff when you go I know why

35:47

you go it was great you were

35:49

able to point me in certain places because

35:52

this is I don't know I hope we get to

35:54

go back but I don't know that we will weird to

35:56

think that way man what I've

35:58

just started doing that too though I

36:00

never ever ever even five years ago would

36:02

have said as I leave a place Well,

36:05

that could be the last time I ever see this maybe

36:08

look back one more time, man Maybe just

36:10

take it in not through camera

36:14

Look at it. Is that you're not coming back And

36:17

that is a function of math. Well,

36:19

I mean, but it is

36:21

fatalistic approach. It's not fatalistic Okay,

36:24

it could be somebody could say that because they're like I'm

36:26

getting old. I'm gonna die. I don't feel that way I'm

36:29

saying that with a lot of these places

36:31

I'm seeing because it was really meaningful and

36:33

I really enjoyed meeting you little town on

36:36

the Caribbean coast of Costa

36:38

Rica at the very end of the

36:40

road where only a couple hundred people

36:42

live. I really enjoyed meeting you. This

36:44

was wonderful But this

36:46

world is so very big and I

36:49

really want to go see other parts

36:51

of it So I don't know that I'll be

36:53

coming back this way again. So I should retain it for

36:56

me It isn't

36:58

super fatalistic. It's more optimistic For

37:01

all the beauty I've seen there's still

37:03

so many more presents to unwrap But I am

37:05

starting to think that way a little bit like I

37:07

kind of want to get after this other

37:09

place Well, the big reason I was thinking that

37:11

way is Lee was such a financial stroke to

37:13

do it. Yeah, dude,

37:16

it's a thing man Like

37:18

like it was it's not just something you're like, oh

37:20

we're gonna go do this No,

37:23

you've got to like mean it. Yeah,

37:25

you're like, okay so this is this is now

37:27

a priority for us and And

37:30

I got to say it was worth it

37:32

for the investment in our marriage I mean, I got

37:34

to say it was I can think of

37:36

a moment when I was walking down the

37:38

street in this city I think it's called

37:41

chinkiteri or They

37:44

the five cities or whatever. Okay, that's kind

37:46

of up north in the armpit sounds negative

37:48

But you'll under I mean sort of

37:50

the north west Armpit

37:53

of the boot. Uh-huh like moreover on

37:55

the pieces side is chinkwittery. Did you

37:57

get over there after pizza? I

38:00

don't know the order of what we did things.

38:02

I just remember walking down the street with a

38:05

little paper bowl that had

38:07

bowtie pasta and like

38:10

very light tomato sauce And

38:13

I was like man. I'm hungry. I can I walk in

38:15

this little place like hey I need you know what do

38:17

you have to eat like we've got this to

38:19

go I was like yes, and so

38:21

I'm eating it with my little wooden spoon.

38:23

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I hate the way it feels

38:26

Yeah, and then just walking down the street and Tara went and

38:28

got something else We're like hey We're gonna meet down at the

38:31

port you go get some food I get some food and we'll

38:33

just like explore a little bit and see what you know and

38:36

Yeah, it was I just remember that moment

38:38

where the Sun is setting over the water

38:41

To the West and we both got our

38:43

little pasta And we're sitting

38:45

there and we're eating it then I went

38:47

and jumped off the cliffs. That was pretty cool Uninjured

38:51

uninjured well done. Yeah, I bled a little

38:53

bit That's injured you

38:55

are so that's the opposite of what you

38:58

said well I mean, I didn't get like

39:00

maimed or anything. I didn't say unmade. It

39:02

was volcanic rock and so yes really sure

39:04

pointy Yes, pointy. It'll get to it No,

39:07

it was it was great What do you love

39:10

about Italy with when you're there with?

39:12

Because you've been there multiple times with Camilla, right? You

39:15

know what this neatly and symmetrically brings us

39:17

back to the forum conversation. Okay, that we

39:19

were on a little bit ago I

39:21

love the layers for me Italy's

39:25

awesome because I love the ancient

39:27

culture and I still love the modern

39:29

culture I know a lot of people who travel

39:31

to Italy are pretty hard on the people the

39:33

vibe Rome

39:36

is kind of dirty. It's true Rome is

39:38

kind of dirty in some places clean and

39:40

lovely and other places It's a major city

39:42

What major city is just lovely and clean

39:44

and beautiful in the all of the downtown

39:47

area at this point in the West? They'd

39:49

none I mean people live there

39:51

they use it but that's part of the layers

39:53

and that's why I like it It's

39:56

stacked up upon itself and we don't even really

39:58

know how far down it goes goes. When

40:01

you were looking at the Colosseum, did you

40:03

by any chance go up the

40:05

hill towards St. John's Lateran? No,

40:09

I don't know what that means. St. John's Lateran is

40:11

the church compound that is the home

40:13

church of the Pope. The

40:17

Pope's home church is not

40:19

the Vatican or St.

40:21

Peter's. It is St. John Lateran.

40:24

They're in Rome. Not too far from the

40:26

Colosseum, a little bit up a hill. They've

40:29

got the shrine of the Holy Stairs,

40:31

Santas Cala, right there. The stairs that

40:34

Constantine's mother Helena went and grabbed

40:36

from Pilate's palace that Jesus ascended

40:38

for his trial. The

40:40

story goes that he bled on those stairs

40:43

and they made a whole shrine around it

40:45

in Rome. That means really pretty cool lore, whether

40:47

you're into all of that or not. So

40:50

if you were to walk from the

40:52

Colosseum up toward Santas Cala, what

40:54

you would see is one very low

40:56

dug-out area that I think it's the

40:58

old barracks for the gladiators right there.

41:01

Does that ring a bell at all?

41:03

Mm-hmm. Okay, that's all right. It's

41:05

like basement of the Colosseum level

41:07

in terms of layers. But

41:09

then if you go down the street

41:12

a little further past the gladiator

41:14

barracks, the next thing that

41:16

you get to is the church of

41:18

San Callisto, maybe? San

41:21

Sebastiano. Dang it, I don't remember,

41:23

whatever. The point is, under that

41:25

church there's an old shrine

41:27

to Mithras, the bull god, that

41:30

was one of the more obscure Eastern

41:32

gods that there was a little cult

41:34

of in Rome that got real hot

41:36

before the time of Christianity. And

41:38

so you can go down there and you can see where

41:40

they did their rituals and like super

41:43

weird ancient pagan stuff. I don't even

41:45

know if that's the lowest layer there.

41:47

I mean, back to like Romulus

41:49

and Remus, stuff of legend kind

41:52

of level, when you go

41:54

underneath that church and see the shrine to

41:56

Mithras under there. Then above that you've got

41:58

ancient Christianity. Then above that you've

42:01

got medieval Christianity, then above that

42:03

you've got Baroque Christianity, then above

42:06

that you've got more modern

42:08

accoutrements of the church as it exists today,

42:10

and it's all

42:12

stacked. Ground level just keeps

42:14

going up for millennia there,

42:16

and at any given

42:19

place you just take a core

42:21

sample and go straight down and you're

42:23

gonna see the eras of 50 famous

42:25

names that you've heard of, 20 famous

42:28

events that you've read about or had in

42:30

history class, and as you walk

42:32

through the city, well there's

42:35

different amounts of cultural erosion

42:37

or archaeological erosion in different

42:39

places, so you see a

42:41

cutout wall and you just, that's the history

42:43

you see right there. It's all stacked up

42:45

like a neat cross-section that you get in

42:47

a nicely illustrated history textbook or something. The

42:49

Forum is where all that stuff happened, right?

42:51

That's what you're talking about. It's called the

42:53

Roman Forum, and that's where Sennett was and

42:55

all that, right? It's where everything was. Okay.

42:57

The Forum is just the

42:59

downtown of downtown areas. So I

43:02

remember being on the far end

43:04

of that opposite the Colosseum and

43:07

seeing a column. There's a few columns

43:09

that are still standing, and behind me

43:11

there was a wall and there was

43:13

a brick facade on the wall, and

43:16

behind that brick there was

43:18

concrete. The wall was

43:21

filled with concrete and

43:24

an older wall that had broken up that

43:26

they just threw in with the concrete as

43:28

backfill for the wall. Huh. The

43:30

one thing I wanted to do as an engineer, because we've done a

43:32

lot of concrete stuff in the past at my old job, I wanted

43:35

to take my fingernail and I

43:37

wanted to scratch it and feel

43:40

the bonding of, because I always heard

43:42

about Roman concrete. Yeah, sure. And I

43:44

couldn't do it because if everybody

43:47

did that there, I mean that's thousands

43:49

of years. Like how many tourists went through

43:52

that way, and if every tourist

43:54

did that. So I... The Contean ethical mean. I was

43:56

a good little boy and I didn't do it, but

43:58

I really really wanted to. Well, but

44:01

you're absolutely right seeing So

44:04

in that just so there's a column behind

44:06

me. There's a brick wall That

44:08

brick was made by somebody but

44:10

inside that was concrete and in

44:12

side that concrete Yes, we're more

44:15

bricks. And so that's how

44:17

many thousands of years am I looking at right there of

44:20

human hands touching this? Yes aggregate

44:22

and this stone Did

44:25

it quit? Does it feel like that's not recording right

44:27

now? I think we just discovered that the

44:31

Audio quit running so I guess we're just

44:33

switching to the backup mics Yeah,

44:35

whatever whatever. All right now we're on the back. I

44:37

don't know when that happened We're

44:40

fixing to find out. Yeah the forum to

44:43

me is a metaphor for what I love about it.

44:45

Yeah, because You walk

44:47

down you get the arch

44:49

of Constantine and Titus Those

44:52

are I mean the the

44:54

distance time-wise between Constantine and

44:57

Titus Is like

44:59

the distance time-wise between George

45:01

Washington and now And

45:04

maybe it's a little less than that, but it's close. I mean

45:06

Titus is 70s ad I

45:09

mean his arch commemorates the

45:12

conquest of Jerusalem and the destruction of

45:14

the temple the Arch

45:16

of Constantine It

45:19

celebrates the victory at Milvian Bridge, which is

45:21

in the early 300s ad so To

45:26

somebody just walking through there. I mean you're like,

45:28

hey, there's an arch Looks like some old Roman

45:30

stuff on there. That guy's got like a wreath

45:32

or something. There's a sword guy. Yeah,

45:34

great That looks Roman and

45:37

you walk a few hundred yards I like I was

45:39

another one that looks Roman look at that one right

45:41

there Then you walk a few hundred more yards and

45:43

there's the Arch of Septimus Severus there's

45:46

far apart as our country is

45:48

from its founding and Yet

45:50

it's all just stacked up in that one Valley

45:54

between three of the

45:56

founding hills of Rome where

45:58

just naturally all the traffic sort of

46:00

got funneled. This was the natural place to

46:02

come out of the neighborhoods and

46:05

the little sub communities that made

46:07

up room from its ancient seven

46:09

hills and assemble. In this valley there's

46:11

water down there. It's a good place to do business,

46:13

to have the markets. Politics

46:16

ended up happening there. It became

46:18

the most coveted valuable property and

46:21

it was across the

46:23

millennia. It's like nowhere else

46:25

to have all that history visible at

46:27

once. It's like with CGI,

46:29

you could make a time lapse of

46:32

Paris or London or something and

46:34

you could see stuff from thousands of

46:36

years all at once like kind of

46:38

you know semi-opaque. Can you picture that?

46:41

Except there, you're seeing

46:43

it all at once. There were two things in

46:45

particular in Rome that stood out to me, like

46:47

two small things, not small

46:50

things, but anyway. When I put my

46:52

body physically in that place, I

46:54

was just walking down a side street towards

46:56

the Spanish steps and

46:59

I saw a manhole cover and

47:01

it said SPQR. What are you making of

47:03

that? I was like that's rad.

47:06

That's cool because that was the

47:09

old, what does it mean in Latin? I'm

47:11

sure you know it. More or less the Senate and people of

47:13

Rome. How do you say it in Latin? I don't remember. I

47:16

could answer that question correctly at some point in my

47:18

life, like after I just got done reading it. Yeah,

47:20

I don't know. Yeah, so

47:22

SPQR which is you know that was

47:24

like USA, you know.

47:27

That was the equivalent of, and

47:29

it was just right there on a

47:31

manhole cover, a modern manhole cover. I was like

47:33

that's pretty cool. It's sort of a flex, isn't

47:35

it? It is. Yeah, it is. Yeah, so there

47:38

was that. I thought that was really neat. The

47:40

other thing I thought was very interesting was

47:42

standing in the center of the coliseum

47:45

and looking around and thinking about all

47:47

the football games I've ever gone to

47:50

and then just thinking man, just

47:53

people from all over funneled in here and they got

47:55

a ticket to sit down. Granted,

47:57

they're watching somebody die. It was

47:59

crazy. You know, you see it and

48:01

you're like, oh yeah, old Coliseum. That's interesting.

48:03

But when you're standing in the arena, the

48:05

arena, the sand, and

48:08

you're looking around, you're like, somebody

48:10

stood where I am right now. And

48:13

they had very, very different thoughts than what

48:15

I'm thinking right now. They,

48:17

and, but they were a person

48:19

and they were scared and they were, or

48:23

whatever, whatever, they were trying to rouse the

48:25

crowd or whatever it was they were feeling.

48:28

It was a very visceral memory just being

48:30

there and seeing that. And it's not something

48:32

you get by looking at pictures. I've

48:35

seen the Coliseum on however

48:37

many like travel ads

48:39

or discovery card works for

48:42

you, you know, and they're like, people

48:44

are running by the Coliseum or whatever.

48:46

No, no, it's not

48:48

a thing to put on a advertisement, you

48:50

know, it's sobering. Yeah. When

48:53

you're there, you're thinking and they're telling you about all

48:56

this stuff. Oh yeah, this is where they would bring

48:58

the animals up. And you're like, what? You

49:00

know, it's just a thing. And you look over to the

49:03

side and there's these, some of these steps

49:05

are still there. Excuse me, not steps. The seats are

49:07

still there. And they have the

49:09

names of people carved into them. They

49:11

were season ticket holders or like this. This

49:15

is wild. A lot

49:17

of watching people die. Yeah. And then

49:19

to know that that existed. And then

49:21

there was this whole period of time

49:23

where people just lived in the Coliseum

49:26

because the economy was wrecked, you know,

49:28

after, after the collapse of Rome. Yeah,

49:31

it was a camp. Yeah. It's just a

49:33

strange, strange thing. I mean, I guess I

49:35

would say we're having problems with our audio.

49:37

We should probably address that here, but I

49:40

don't know what you want to do. I, it's working.

49:42

I mean, my thing's recording. Is your thing recording? Yeah,

49:44

I think it's recording. We're just on backup audio, whatever.

49:47

Yeah. Okay. People understand. Thank you for encouraging me to

49:49

do that. And, um, for answering all

49:51

of our travel questions. So when we were reaching out

49:53

and asking all that, but man, it was really interesting.

49:55

And I think, I think it was special. It

49:58

makes me want to go read more and go. back

50:00

with more mastery, but again it's quite

50:02

the stroke to go there. This

50:07

episode of No Dumb Questions is brought to

50:09

you by the patrons. And

50:11

a while back, Allison, who helps

50:14

us out with the Patreon stuff and

50:16

some email stuff as well, she's great

50:18

and completely gets it. She

50:20

reached out to some patrons,

50:22

like, hey, if you felt like it,

50:25

we would love to have you record some things.

50:27

Just record a basic message, who you are, maybe

50:29

how long you've been listening or whatever, and

50:32

why you choose to support the

50:34

program, and then we might

50:36

just put that in an episode. And so I think we

50:38

have one that came in this time

50:40

around. Who is it? What

50:42

do we got? Yeah, this is Libby. Let me go ahead and

50:44

click on this thing and fire it up. Let's see what Libby

50:46

has to say. Great. Hi,

50:49

this is Libby from Washington State. I

50:53

have been listening to No

50:55

Dumb Questions pretty much since

50:57

they released their first episode.

51:00

I love how Destin and Matt relate

51:02

to each other. I

51:04

enjoy learning new things, and I

51:08

got to admit, their discoveries of the

51:10

recordings of testicles and barnacles have

51:12

been life-changing. I've been

51:14

supporting this since April of 2018. That's

51:18

awesome. So Libby has a better

51:20

audio recording setup than we do,

51:22

apparently. Yes.

51:24

Well, and the primary part of her

51:26

better audio recording setup is her voice.

51:30

I bet she does something voice-wise,

51:32

professionally. That sounded like

51:35

NPR or advertising quality, and

51:38

now people are going to notice the obvious

51:40

reduction in quality when it comes back to

51:42

us. It's kind of embarrassing. I hadn't anticipated

51:44

that. Libby, thank you so much for supporting.

51:46

We're grateful. It's really fun to hear from

51:49

people why they support, and I don't

51:51

know. It's fun to know that these

51:53

silly little conversations we have are actually

51:56

positive for people. Yeah, indeed.

51:58

Libby, thank you. Seriously, that was

52:01

very very kind of you and

52:03

thanks to everybody else as well

52:05

who supports program at patreon.com/no dumb

52:07

questions Absolutely. Thank you. All

52:09

right, let's get back at it You

52:14

asked me at the beginning you said what would you do? Mm-hmm.

52:17

What would you do? I guess I'll ask you

52:19

first for maximum romance Yeah, and

52:21

when you tell me you know a lot of

52:23

things so tell me in a way that someone

52:26

who's never been would understand I'll

52:29

go first I

52:31

thought but you go for it. Yeah. Yeah, I would say

52:34

Venice was awesome Venice

52:36

was interesting. It's a city that has Waterways

52:39

for streets. Yeah, it's

52:42

just very very interesting and I had the

52:44

best pizza pizza in my entire life in

52:46

Venice And I will chase

52:48

that piece of pizza until I die fair enough

52:51

We went over towards the east third not the

52:53

east the west coast Something

52:55

about seeing the sunset over the water

52:57

was really really cool Pompeii It's not

53:00

romantic, but it did change my perspective

53:02

on life Rome was cool. I

53:04

felt like it was a city of high crime Yes,

53:08

my family and I feel that way too so

53:11

I Wouldn't say Rome

53:13

was romantic Which is

53:15

an odd saying really you didn't

53:18

feel romance stuff in Rome because it's

53:20

literally right there in the name, Doug Well,

53:22

I mean like Trevi Fountain was awesome

53:25

going into the the Pantheon Holy

53:27

cow seeing the art at the oh

53:29

gosh. Tell me what am I trying

53:31

Vatican Museum? The Vatican Museum? Yeah, that

53:34

was incredible. Yeah, I'll tell you the

53:36

one thing that I remember more than anything else We're

53:38

driving from point a to point B through

53:40

Tuscany Driving in Italy

53:42

is very very difficult. So I had

53:44

a stick shift Fiat Awesome

53:46

and Tara every time we

53:48

come up on a really weird intersection and

53:51

you know It's clear We're about to have a

53:53

wreck and I navigate it safely she'll

53:55

reach over and pat me on the arm and say

53:57

you're doing great Meaning hey,

53:59

we didn't die good job but

54:01

I remember we were told not to

54:03

stop near Naples because of the crime but we were

54:06

out of gas and we had to stop near Naples

54:08

and we were hungry and we get on the

54:10

GPS and we're like well it looks like there's

54:12

a gas station restaurant. It was the best kind.

54:14

Yeah. That's what you want when you go to

54:16

Italy. So it was a

54:18

Sunday and we went and there was this

54:21

gas station I walked in and then my

54:23

broken Italian I said excuse you do

54:25

you have a table I mean just for

54:27

two and they said

54:29

yeah we do today is seafood

54:32

we're eating seafood today. I was like sounds

54:34

great table for two. So we

54:36

went we sat down Tara went and washed her hands and

54:38

when she came back they had served us pasta with

54:41

everything seafood you

54:44

know like when you picture a fisherman's net

54:47

and he got like the big fish or like the

54:49

shrimp or anything like that and then

54:52

you have the other stuff in

54:54

there. I mean like tires and boots.

54:56

Yeah that's the stuff that was in the

54:58

ball. It was an entire

55:01

it was a lot of a lot of muscles

55:04

and a lot you know there were some clams and

55:07

then there was an entire family of

55:09

octopus. Oh. Little bitty octopus they

55:11

had a little head some of them had five

55:13

legs instead of eight. I don't know. Moving around?

55:15

No they were dead. Is that a quintopus? I

55:18

think so I don't know. Okay. But they have

55:20

no idea. But Tara and

55:22

I were sitting there at this gas station and

55:24

there was a birthday party happening behind this and

55:26

there was a few guys smoking to our right

55:29

yelling at the yelling at the

55:31

TV over the soccer game that was happening and

55:34

that is not what you think of when you

55:36

think of romance in Italy but

55:38

it was but it was because

55:40

we were so out of place and we were

55:42

so uncomfortable but we were there in octopus.

55:45

Yes. Yeah. Perfect and

55:48

you know where I don't think you get that experience

55:50

on the Amalfi Coast. Yeah. I mean

55:52

it's like going to Yellowstone the wrong time of

55:54

year. Yeah it's beautiful. I think Yellowstone is romantic. I

55:57

think the wild is romantic. But

55:59

you gotta yell. Yellowstone the wrong time of year, it's

56:01

a traffic jam with the occasional bison. Would

56:04

you like to sit in a traffic jam with

56:06

the occasional bison for the next nine hours? Sweet.

56:09

Go to Yellowstone the wrong time of year. Do

56:12

you want to see things that would otherwise be

56:14

pretty but are instead incredibly frustrating? Go to one

56:16

of these coastal locations that are just a traffic

56:18

jam in Italy and just sit there.

56:21

But if you want to go and do something that's just

56:23

downright weird, get

56:26

off the plane at the airport in

56:28

Rome and ask the first Roman-looking

56:31

person you can find, you're scoozy.

56:34

Dové restaurante

56:38

della Stazione de

56:41

Gasolina. They're

56:44

going to look at you weird but you're going to have memories. No

56:47

one does that. No one is looking for

56:49

the stupid gas station restaurant in crime riddled

56:51

Naples. But that's why

56:54

it's rad. We're

56:57

looking at Nero's Gardens. They're not really

56:59

fleshed out but that's where Nero, after

57:02

the fire, he blamed Christians for it. He

57:04

took poles and he didn't do it himself. He probably

57:06

had his guys do it and ran them up people's

57:09

butts so that they would just sit

57:11

up there and impale them. Yeah, impale them.

57:13

So you slowly slide down the thing, dipped

57:15

them in pitch, used them to light his

57:17

gardens, one of the most savage abuses of

57:20

power in the history of the West. And

57:22

it happened in these gardens. I'm standing

57:24

over there. I just want to go here in the

57:26

evening and imagine what it would be like to

57:29

be in these gardens in their prime

57:31

and Nero's golden house but lit

57:34

by people who nearly 2,000 years ago

57:36

would say they believe the same stuff I believe

57:39

today. I just wanted to think

57:41

about that. The last time I was there I was thinking about

57:43

that. Some sketchy guys

57:45

came and started lurking. It's a

57:49

movie with Will Smith in New York with the vampire.

57:51

I am legend. I am legend.

57:55

As the shadows crept these guys would creep and

57:57

we were still in the light. I'm

57:59

watching. are just having fun and taking

58:01

pictures in front of the Coliseum because that's across

58:03

the street from Narrows Garden. I'm

58:05

looking at this going, okay

58:07

gang we gotta go, snap, the little circular

58:10

finger thing that means we're done and they

58:12

know that when I say that it means

58:14

I see something you don't we're leaving immediately and

58:16

we left and nobody ended up

58:18

doing anything weird but we were definitely

58:20

getting skulked upon by people who make

58:23

a living of looking for unwitting tourists

58:25

who are a little bit off the

58:27

beaten path. That's a

58:29

great memory. It's family magic that we

58:31

were there and there was a little bit of

58:33

risk and we were somewhere that isn't really the

58:35

kind of thing that you go to as a

58:37

tourist to think about burning Christians a couple thousand

58:39

years ago but we went and it was cool

58:42

and then the last time we were there you

58:44

know I've only been there once with my kids. We

58:47

got up the next morning and I

58:50

wanted those sugar donuts that they have in

58:52

Italy. These powdered sugar donut things.

58:54

I can't get them anywhere else so I

58:56

got one. I ate it. No

58:58

meat, no protein, just a donut

59:00

to open my day. About two

59:02

hours later my hands are shaking. I

59:05

just had a sugar crash. Bizarre. And

59:07

I'm like we gotta go now. Kind of got the

59:09

sweat going and we just

59:12

sprinted to the first open pizza

59:14

place we could find. I

59:16

explained in my broken Italian like my blood

59:18

sugar is low. Can I just have something

59:21

and sit down while my family orders? I

59:23

was very patient

59:25

with my garbage Italian and gave

59:28

me some breadsticks and I just powered them

59:30

and down to Coke and I

59:32

felt better and then everybody laughed. My shirts

59:34

all sweated out and everything. It's not from

59:36

exercise. It's from a ridiculous

59:38

fluke. You know starvation crash

59:41

as a tourist or whatever.

59:43

Dude it's the stuff like that. It

59:46

really is the go and just be

59:48

there and do things far

59:50

more than I got the picture standing in

59:52

front of the thing that everybody has. And

59:55

so to answer your question, what

59:57

makes it romantic? What makes it awesome? It's

1:00:00

what you guys did with your gas station Quintopus.

1:00:07

It's the weird crap. It's the weird stuff that gets

1:00:09

you totally out of your element. You're not in control

1:00:11

anymore. There's some dude right now, baby. I've

1:00:15

been thinking, I've been thinking,

1:00:17

you know, next year is our 20th anniversary. Been

1:00:19

thinking we need to get some Quintopus. She's

1:00:22

like, Yeeh! Roy! But

1:00:26

she secretly is kind of smiling. Roy.

1:00:31

Oh, you know, the weight of my

1:00:33

heart. Not an

1:00:35

exposed stud. I'm

1:00:39

really glad you went on that trip. And I'm,

1:00:41

I'm glad you had romantic magic. I

1:00:43

really am. It's, I think that's

1:00:46

so important. I think it's dumb when people act

1:00:48

like they're above it. When they act like they're

1:00:50

above the romance and the moment and the ambiance

1:00:52

and the music and the light and everything feels

1:00:54

different. And I'm here and I'm sharing it with

1:00:56

somebody that I love. And this moment will never

1:00:58

happen again. Things will never

1:01:01

align to be right here with the stupid

1:01:03

things, the beautiful things, the old things, the

1:01:05

new things. This moment is

1:01:07

ours. And it's,

1:01:10

it's something nobody can ever take away from us. And

1:01:12

when you are in the moment and you kind of have that

1:01:15

just brief awakening, it's like

1:01:17

the veil gets pulled back about your

1:01:19

reality and your life and love. I

1:01:22

go, dang, this is it. Like, this is what I'm here for. This

1:01:25

is awesome. Yeah. And when you both feel that

1:01:27

at the same time, that to

1:01:29

me is what I mean by romance. I've

1:01:31

experienced that a few different places, but nowhere

1:01:34

has more consistently paid off for that sort

1:01:36

of feeling, even if I'm just there for

1:01:38

work than Italy. It's a beautiful place and

1:01:40

I've, I've really savored being there with

1:01:42

people I care about. I'm glad you got to do

1:01:45

it. Yeah, I

1:01:47

appreciate the, uh, the recommendation. When

1:01:50

you say it that way, it paints some of

1:01:52

the moments in a different light for me. The,

1:01:54

uh, Oh gosh, we're going

1:01:56

to miss our train at the train station and Pisa. The

1:01:59

only way we can get. there is

1:02:01

if we both hop on the scooter and

1:02:03

you drive and I navigate and

1:02:05

we're both on a scooter. Did this occur? This

1:02:07

happened. Oh my. Oh it was

1:02:09

great and we couldn't walk like the reason

1:02:11

it happens we're supposed to walk back to

1:02:13

the yeah yeah it was just 10 minutes

1:02:15

and you know our trains in 12 minutes

1:02:17

we'll be fine we start walking in the

1:02:20

whole street is blocked off to pedestrian traffic

1:02:22

we're like what and then we're

1:02:24

just like oh gosh solve the problem

1:02:26

uh scooter now you

1:02:30

have to drive I have to

1:02:32

navigate okay it's so straight did

1:02:35

that I mean thinking about her saying

1:02:38

you know you talked about the lantern

1:02:40

swinging from the ceiling that Galileo used

1:02:42

to figure out pinwheel emotion yeah it's

1:02:45

over there in that building because she's a nerd she was

1:02:47

reading stuff I'm like what it's

1:02:49

over there she knew it would freak me

1:02:51

out it's there yeah it's there can

1:02:54

we go yeah we can go you know you

1:02:56

know what she was doing do issues do it

1:02:58

yeah like those moments yeah when you

1:03:00

talk about it that way it is romantic

1:03:02

there's two things that I'll chase forever

1:03:04

okay one of them is a piece of

1:03:06

pizza that I had in Venice mm-hmm and the other was

1:03:09

some lobster linguine because

1:03:11

on the last night I was like you know I want

1:03:14

to take you out to dinner on a

1:03:16

rooftop restaurant in Rome and

1:03:19

we did that and it was

1:03:21

awesome because we didn't know anything and the

1:03:23

guy comes over the sauvignon

1:03:25

is that what it's called I don't know that

1:03:27

sounded like French to me I don't know I

1:03:29

don't know the guy that tells you how to

1:03:31

pair wine with food he comes

1:03:34

over and he's like oh hello good evening no

1:03:36

that's French I don't know what I'm doing so he's

1:03:38

like talking to us and talk with your hands it'll

1:03:40

be believed yeah and I just turn around like here's

1:03:42

the deal bro we have no idea

1:03:44

what we're doing we have absolutely

1:03:46

no clue what you're saying and

1:03:49

what we're doing he goes oh

1:03:51

what do you like just being ignorant with

1:03:53

her was beautiful romantic

1:04:00

and it was great. I'm really excited

1:04:04

to see what you come up with for the

1:04:06

next one. Yeah, thank you so much. you