0:05

Hello and welcome to NoPriors. Today

0:07

we've got Elias Torres with us,

0:09

repeat entrepreneur and CEO of Agency,

0:11

which is working on enabling every

0:13

company to make their customers successful.

0:15

Elias is no stranger to entrepreneurship. He's

0:18

founded four companies, Lead Engineering, at

0:20

the Juggernaut SaaS company HubSpot, and

0:22

most recently sold his last business,

0:24

Drift, for more than a billion

0:27

dollars to VISTA equity partners. Elias,

0:29

welcome. It's a pleasure. It's

0:31

been a dream of mine to be here

0:33

with you. You're doing company number five.

0:35

Can you just talk a little bit about who

0:37

you are getting to this place? Yeah,

0:39

absolutely. The

0:41

journey, I think, for me

0:43

is what's interesting bits about

0:45

it, I'm from Nicaragua. So I

0:47

came, first generation could not speak

0:49

English, right? imagine me at the

0:51

back of a McDonald's, you know,

0:54

reading the printouts to founder number

0:56

five, three times with Sequoia you

0:58

know, and outcomes, IPOs, et cetera.

1:00

It's been an incredible journey, right?

1:02

I worked at IBM for 10

1:04

years and then I wanted to

1:06

be an entrepreneur. I just could

1:08

not be inside of IBM. I

1:11

needed to be free. I needed to have

1:13

a chance of huge impact. And impact. so

1:15

here I am, I'm in Boston. That's

1:17

another interesting bit, right? I'm not in the

1:19

valley. I came to Florida from Nicaragua

1:21

and then I had a shot at IBM

1:23

in the Northeast, I've been here ever

1:25

since. You know, one tidbit I will

1:27

insert because I feel like the tech

1:30

community has somehow discovered that smart kids

1:32

who end up in tech often do

1:34

math competitions growing up. This has been

1:36

going on a long time, guys. Oh,

1:38

yes, you are one of the math

1:40

competition kids. I was a

1:42

math competition. I wish I would

1:44

be like like an Android

1:46

or something like that, right? But,

1:49

but, um, yes, we're talking,

1:51

let's say 1992, 91. is Nicaragua,

1:53

but I get picked somehow

1:55

to represent the school nationally at

1:57

this competitions, right? I third. in

2:00

the country, it's not a great

2:02

accomplishment. But the point you're making

2:04

is that math is fundamental to

2:06

this and the ability and the

2:08

thinking is applicable. And when I

2:10

came to the United States, I'm

2:12

in a low -income town in

2:14

Tampa, Florida, low -income school, public school.

2:16

And somehow, again, I don't speak

2:18

English, but somehow the math teacher

2:20

says, do you wanna be in

2:22

math competitions? Me, you alpha theta.

2:24

And I'm like, sure, I'll join

2:26

the nerd club. And I'm like,

2:28

just how to blast it. I

2:30

did have a lot of trouble with the

2:32

word problems, but I was able to do well

2:34

in the other ones I want to

2:37

talk a little bit about

2:39

the last two journeys because

2:41

HubSpot is a company that

2:43

everybody knows that is like

2:45

an important public enterprise SaaS

2:47

business now. And you've done

2:49

leadership at different scales, like

2:51

coming out of even the

2:53

success of HubSpot where you

2:55

were leading engineering, like why

2:57

go start drift? I

3:00

think my whole life has

3:02

been. a a

3:04

journey not having any clue

3:06

what's ahead or what's possible. I mean,

3:08

that math competition I had in Nicaragua

3:10

to go to compete in Mexico, representing

3:13

my country and meeting kids from all

3:15

over Latin America was like mind -boggling.

3:17

Then I come to the United States,

3:19

then I'm in Florida and then you

3:21

start like, you know, I don't know,

3:23

like MIT and stuff like that. So

3:25

there's always like more. It's just been

3:27

fun not knowing what's ahead until you

3:29

get there. And taking HubSpot Public When

3:32

Brian Halligan came to me and bought my

3:34

company, Performable, so he's like, our goal is to

3:36

take it public in the next year or

3:38

two. I had

3:40

no clue what taking a company public meant.

3:42

mean, we had $30 million in revenue,

3:44

200 employees when he said those things. Brian

3:47

says, you're in charge. You and David can

3:50

do anything you want with product and engineering.

3:53

We've got to go public. so my mind is like,

3:55

okay, we're going public, but I have no idea

3:57

what going public means. That That naive.

3:59

it. today great, right? We go

4:01

public, a billion -dollar company, three years,

4:03

everything was great. We went from

4:06

to 130 million. I

4:08

said, if can do this.

4:11

Why can I do this too, right? should

4:14

be easy to go from zero to

4:16

a hundred million. And that's why I left

4:18

HubSpot, really. I was so naive thinking

4:20

that was going be easy. Well, you

4:22

were not so naive that it didn't work,

4:24

right? So your last company drift, it

4:26

for more than a billion dollars and you

4:28

could do it. And yet you told

4:30

me you think of it in some ways

4:33

as a failure, which is like a

4:35

very odd uncommon point of view on that

4:37

sort of outcome. Why

4:39

would you describe it that way? Look, I'm very

4:41

happy with my life. I had almost

4:43

no food growing up, right? So to

4:45

me, every year has been a better

4:47

year than the one before for me.

4:50

ever since growing up. So, like,

4:52

I have zero complaints. But

4:54

when we left HubSpot, You

4:57

know, to start a

4:59

company, I left it at a billion dollars. And

5:02

I saw it grow to 30,

5:04

right? And so As

5:06

I'm building drift, the All

5:09

the Oh, the goalpost moved, I say. The goalpost moved,

5:11

right? So the day that we sold

5:13

drift me was a very sad day. I

5:15

did feel like a failure. It was

5:17

super anti -climatic. It was literally, I was

5:19

at home in bed, tired. It It was

5:21

like 11 o 'clock. We've been waiting to

5:23

sign the papers, you know, power of attorney.

5:26

I just got a text from one of the

5:28

lawyers says it's done, you know, and that

5:31

day I felt nothing, right? And the next

5:33

day it felt even weirder and weirder.

5:36

It took a long time for all those

5:38

things to clear up what it meant

5:40

to sell for a billion in cash, right?

5:42

company that we grew to a hundred

5:44

million in revenue, eight years of hard work,

5:46

but I lost a dream. of building

5:48

a $30 billion company or taking

5:50

a company public, right? And

5:52

so I felt at that time

5:54

I was so tired, worked

5:56

straight 45 years of my life, you

5:59

know. And I was never

6:01

taking vacations, really. And I was worried

6:03

I was worried that I it in have it in me at the

6:05

time. If you me, me, are you gonna start something else? I

6:07

would be like, else, done. be like, I'm done. It's like,

6:09

I'm like, how I'm like, how could I start

6:11

over? know, I know. So I was like, I'm done. It's was

6:13

like, I'm done. like, like, to people are like,

6:15

I want to start a company. I I

6:17

go, stupid. Don't do it. do it. took a

6:20

minute, you're kind of hanging out for

6:22

a while, for a while. then you started doing

6:24

some consulting for OpenAI for open AI and their customers

6:26

customers the energy come from again? energy Pat again?

6:28

As Pat says I have the energy

6:30

of a teenager. the energy was I

6:32

was a little tired a little tired. it's

6:34

a little weird, reverse. It's a a

6:36

little weird. Elias. It's a little we're

6:38

lucky. It's What happened? was

6:40

tired. I was in, I

6:42

was was of 2022. What happened?

6:45

Chad GPT. Chad GPT. And the launch

6:47

the launch of conviction everybody,

6:49

this is very important. very same

6:52

time? same time? Yeah. October. Yeah. October. No, you

6:54

knew. You stole the the I was in

6:56

I was in Brazil technically,

6:58

was the first the first real

7:00

vacation I took took post -acquisition because I

7:02

worked, I stayed at DREF for

7:04

almost two years, and

7:07

I was there. there. And then I

7:09

kite served, that's one that's one of my hobbies.

7:11

I have hobbies now, now, you know? Nice.

7:13

Poor immigrant does does not have hobbies, but

7:15

now I have hobbies. For the first

7:17

time like felt like I get up in the

7:19

morning, we'll kite surfing the afternoon, we

7:22

just have breakfast, we feel

7:24

the ocean breeze, just of us, of us,

7:26

four friends, and we were just like kite

7:28

surfing. And I'm explaining

7:30

chat chat to BT to them, and I'm

7:32

like, I'm is insane. is I don't even know how

7:34

to explain how to I don't

7:36

know what an know is, October, is,

7:38

October 22, technically speaking. I knew

7:40

knew I knew I knew Act, I knew I knew I

7:43

don't know this I don't know this and

7:45

I'm like explaining to them why this

7:47

is different. So that's the first So that's the

7:49

first moment. the I had Deputy moment where I was

7:51

like, you know what, know what, I missed

7:53

the missed the book. What happens? Why Why

7:55

wasn't I working for for open air? What wasn't,

7:58

like, is this it? Is Is this game? them

8:00

over. Many of us asked

8:02

ourselves that question. People are still asking themselves

8:04

this question. And so that was the

8:06

first thing that happened, Catalyst. I've

8:09

already gone through that journey of a post -exit founder,

8:11

but I'm already coming to the conclusion. The only thing

8:13

I know how to do is build and I

8:15

want to learn. And so I get introduced to open

8:17

AI just to do

8:19

like one of those networking calls and they

8:21

tell me. We're drowning,

8:23

customers are asking us

8:25

for help. We're two, 300

8:27

people. We don't. We

8:30

can help them implement their own solutions.

8:32

We We don't have the bandwidth. So we're

8:34

looking for people, we're trying the big

8:36

firms. And it

8:38

was an idea they were giving me and I said,

8:40

I to do that. I

8:42

wanna do that. I don't know

8:44

anything about it. I've never used the

8:46

GPT API, but here I go. And

8:48

so they were like, are you sure?

8:50

They looked me up and they're like,

8:52

is this what you want to do?

8:54

And I said, yes. And so I

8:56

did consulting for them and I started

8:59

from the bottom, right? People were like,

9:01

who are you? I was doing some

9:03

support tickets for them, et cetera, explanations,

9:05

but then I started getting contract like

9:07

the MBA, you know,

9:09

Ticketmaster. I'm in Dubai talking

9:11

to customers, Red

9:13

Bull, and I'm just

9:15

having a blast with

9:17

the small team, implementing

9:19

agents, LLM apps in Clavio,

9:22

one of the customers

9:24

too. and

9:26

my My whole world changes, right?

9:28

It's like. This is The

9:30

dream as an engineer. to

9:33

build solutions that are this intelligent.

9:35

Okay. So come around to the idea

9:38

that you have this capability that

9:40

you're actually really inspired about. How did

9:42

you end up thinking about customer

9:44

success? Like, you sort of us a

9:46

line about what agency is and

9:48

then landing on that idea? Yeah.

9:50

mean, agency is

9:52

really the lessons learned in

9:54

all my prior four companies, right?

9:56

Startups, we know how to

9:58

like build products. we how to to

10:00

raise money, hire people, hire people,

10:02

build products. to We know how to sell

10:04

it. we know how to we know

10:06

how to market them, but I don't

10:08

believe we know how to take

10:11

care of our customers, especially in the

10:13

B2B. in I think managing customers, both

10:15

at scale, when you have tens

10:17

of thousands thousands of customers, thousands of customers, I I

10:19

don't think anybody has the answer to

10:21

do that, answer is something that happened in

10:23

the past 10 years. happened in the past 10 years. We're

10:25

struggling as as companies, right? right?

10:28

How'd you end up focusing on on CS?

10:30

Yeah, I ended I ended up working on on

10:32

CS because one of the One of the, one of

10:34

the customers that I started, I'm a

10:36

good friend with Andrew. So Andrew used to

10:38

work with me, a used to work with me, a

10:40

CEO of Clavio, Boston based company, of Claibio, success

10:42

IPO. I did, I did

10:44

some consulting for him. And one of

10:46

the ideas was, how do we help

10:49

ideas was how do we help scale the customer

10:51

Customer Success Organization, right? I drift,

10:54

I built in I built in 2019

10:56

the first was helping, how do we help but

10:58

now I was helping, Because he how

11:00

do we help customers of She has

11:02

hundreds of thousands of customers. So when

11:04

I So when I started solving

11:07

that problem, which was a little

11:09

bit of applying my experience between

11:11

marketing my experience between is when

11:13

I LLLMs, is when I amount of help

11:15

that we can provide as a company we

11:17

can provide help scale. to help

11:19

scale. benchmarking, reporting, inside generation,

11:21

idea creation to to to the customers

11:23

that they have at scale it's

11:26

something that that struggle right right, do

11:28

that in a very a very detailed

11:30

manner And so so that's kind

11:32

of where the idea was born

11:34

idea was was like was like, can

11:37

do this for all for all

11:39

B2B companies. What do you

11:41

think CS looks like like years from

11:43

now? It's not been a focus of

11:45

a lot of AI applications today. today. one

11:47

would argue that investors and

11:49

CEOs often don't think of it as

11:51

like super strategic. You You can be better

11:53

or worse at it, but does it

11:55

become much more powerful somehow? I I

11:57

think he has his everything. I I think

11:59

the worst. maybe is the the misnomer. think that's

12:02

where people are getting lost. I think,

12:04

I think, no offense, right? But, you know, VCs are saying, oh,

12:06

here's CS, here's a category. How many

12:08

software companies are in it? What's the

12:10

time? How much is the revenue?

12:12

Add up the valuations? Is that something

12:14

that we're interested in? I'm not

12:16

necessarily interested in CS, right? I'm

12:18

interested in customers. I've

12:20

been in the in CS, right? I'm

12:22

interested a customers. I've years. in the I

12:24

know that like the back

12:26

of my head, like I'm years for like

12:29

15 years. customer founder, All right? All

12:31

my companies, I'm the one who

12:33

services the And when I And when

12:35

I went to HubSpot, I

12:37

went from 20 customers to 5,000. And

12:39

I ,000. And I I crying call me

12:41

and they me and they would say,

12:43

Elias, me help Elias, me get on the

12:45

screen and help me fix the

12:47

product. product, help Hub HubSpot for me. And

12:49

I would say, me. I'm sorry, I

12:51

have I ,000 customers. customers. So the the

12:54

I where I stop servicing my

12:56

customers like they were the only one,

12:58

my soul gets gets crushed because

13:00

the company shifted, shifted, And so that's

13:02

what I want to solve today, right?

13:04

to that, it's not right? So I'm trying

13:06

to solve I'm trying to solve, is how Do

13:08

we service customer? How do we give? we

13:10

give the power, the the power, the

13:12

agency to the customer itself. like,

13:15

give you an example have I like to have

13:17

personal relationships with the business that I work. Ah,

13:19

yes, I work. Yes, much, much. Yeah. Right?

13:21

Like for for example, I have a I have

13:23

a guy I have to the winter I

13:25

have to right? And so I can so he has

13:27

a can text, he he has a

13:29

warehouse. for me, and I can his space for

13:31

me, and I can text him, he lives down

13:33

the street, and and he can come and pick me

13:36

up, we can take the car, drop off, and

13:38

he's super flexible to me, to my needs, my needs,

13:40

I'm in charge of the relationship. I

13:42

I go to my barber. I I just

13:44

booked two on Saturday for my

13:46

son and I. I, My second son says, can I

13:48

come? I come? And I said, you text smell

13:50

and you you say, say, if we can

13:52

if we can in. in. So

13:54

he smell and says, okay, I'll squeeze you

13:56

in in the in in the two in

13:58

the right? slots, right? so so I like that.

14:00

experience. Can we have that Can we

14:02

have that experience the like a a service now

14:04

Can you text, know, know, would say, it's like,

14:07

want, I wanna be able to provide

14:09

businesses of the future the ability to

14:11

put the customer in charge. to put the

14:13

at scale in charge. Yes, at scale

14:15

too. At with hundreds of thousands of

14:17

customers. of customers. the

14:19

essence. essence. Yeah, I I was

14:21

going to say, say I, this is is actually

14:23

something I believe very deeply about deeply which

14:25

is like, I do not want a

14:27

bunch of, of be conceivably very talented

14:29

people, like between me me the founders that I

14:32

you know owe I, you know, owe support

14:34

and partnership and work I don't have I don't

14:36

have any of the contacts, I don't

14:38

care as much as I do. as I

14:40

do and I think it's it's like you know not a you

14:42

know, not a great experience when

14:44

there's like four layers of people

14:46

who are passing around some but it

14:48

for a founder, but it

14:50

doesn't mean if doesn't scale if you're doing

14:52

it in a particular way. And I guess

14:54

that's true of many customer relationships relationships with

14:57

an owner of the product. I think you and

14:59

I are alike, alike, I want to disrupt how

15:01

startups work. I work. I break

15:03

the status quo, right? right? Which is

15:05

what you just said. said. You You

15:07

don't want four layers of people

15:09

between you and the founders, right?

15:11

right? And so the same same is

15:13

with me. agency, there's only There's only gonna be

15:15

one email address. address. Elias at agency, that

15:18

Inc. It's very dangerous, man.

15:20

man. will email. I will I will

15:22

always like take care of all the

15:24

customers, right? right? That's the the company of

15:26

the future of the future. I had

15:28

800 had 800 people, in like organization.

15:30

That organization. again That cannot

15:32

happen again Right? it

15:34

wasn't working. people didn't right solve

15:37

the of people didn't necessarily solve the

15:39

problem. every other that's something that every other

15:41

company is struggling with. to maintain so I

15:43

wanna maintain that relationship. And so the

15:45

only solution out of this is by

15:48

leveraging leveraging AI. I I want to talk a little

15:50

bit about how you think about company how now, about

15:52

both in the now, of AI the then also, AI

15:54

and then around. You don't want 800 people. You

15:56

say, people. You say I think I can get to

15:58

a billion. to a billion, you know. Is that is

16:00

that value? Is that revenue? I

16:02

think revenue Yeah, that's a

16:04

better one. Value is too It's too easy.

16:07

Yeah, okay, the gold move. It's a billion in

16:09

revenue. That's a good goal. It's a billion in

16:11

revenue. with hundred people. How do you not hire

16:13

the other 700 people? We have to

16:15

question everything. I'm a big fan of Elon, right?

16:17

I think I heard him speak about, like,

16:19

you know, he's just things about building a rocket.

16:21

And he says, well how much does it

16:23

cost to build a rocket, right? and instead of

16:25

just saying like, how much the parts cost

16:28

at the existing marketplaces, right? It's like, well, I'll

16:30

just build the part, right? It's like it's

16:32

a metal I think the same way, right? It's

16:34

like I have to produce something that has

16:36

high value. and and that is very rare,

16:38

right? There's two ways to make a lot

16:40

of money, right? billion dollars. You either have something

16:42

that a A lot of

16:44

small businesses can acquire for free,

16:46

right, with very little marketing in

16:48

cost Or you sell something that

16:51

is very, very expensive, right, to

16:53

enterprise customers. And so I'm picking

16:55

to choose something to solve very,

16:57

very, very big problems for big

16:59

enterprises. Second,

17:01

I think I want to challenge,

17:03

like Paul Graham says, do things that don't

17:05

scale. I think that that's game over

17:07

for that statement, right? I think now we

17:10

only have to do things that scale. I

17:12

already know all the things that I could

17:14

do before that not scaling I could always throw

17:16

a body at something and be like, okay

17:18

Let's you go do that. I think you said

17:20

it in a tweet recently, right? And an

17:22

ex and you're like, can we just hire an

17:24

intern, right? And then I think Pranab or

17:26

somebody says, well, we can throw Devin at it,

17:29

right? It's like, that's the thinking that we

17:31

need to have, right? Do not do

17:33

things that don't scare. I already know that they will

17:35

work for a year and then they're gonna break in a

17:37

year. I now have to

17:39

solve the things right from the first

17:41

place, right? What are the fundamentals, right? customer

17:44

intelligence, you know communication.

17:48

Understand the problem deeply, get pricing

17:50

right, get pricing better, build the right

17:52

relationships with the right customers. Who's

17:54

gonna take you there, right? You know,

17:56

I'm building a company at a

17:59

much faster speed. It's only been

18:01

a few months, few but I'm

18:03

already much further ahead than Drift

18:05

three years in, right? in, right? When

18:07

it he comes to understanding my passion,

18:09

what I'm trying to solve, to how big

18:11

the problem is. is, the the

18:13

market. my position my position

18:15

as a company, the team, the

18:17

engineering organization, the infrastructure, the

18:20

branding, the the marketing. I'm I'm moving

18:22

at a speed that I just

18:24

never felt before and it just

18:26

feels natural. natural. Partly because of of

18:29

AI partly because of my experience. of my

18:31

advice do you have for people do

18:33

you have for I think like who, reaction

18:35

is like, is if you can get to

18:37

you can dollars a revenue with only a

18:39

hundred employees, it's like, I wanna be a

18:41

of the hundred employees. employees, is like, I makes

18:43

those people valuable and special in their

18:45

work? Like how do I end up in

18:47

that last hundred? valuable and special for

18:49

something very deep right here, but up

18:51

in that gonna say I'm gonna say

18:54

as much as I can You're

18:56

care anymore. for something I... deep. Look, as a

18:58

as a founder, see I see founders all the

19:00

time doing this. By the the way, I was

19:02

part of three incubators this time around. I'd

19:04

never been part of an incubator part of my

19:06

fifth time. until And I got to spend

19:08

a lot of time with a lot of

19:10

first a founders. And it was amazing because he

19:12

gave me a little refresher of what I

19:14

was like. you know, the first

19:17

time around. like, you And so I see a

19:19

lot of founders of. of founders Keep making

19:21

so many mistakes in hiring. in I've

19:23

made them all them all too, too, right. too

19:25

many times you get excited, you meet you

19:27

they say the and they say the things like,

19:29

to work for you. I'm going to

19:31

make your company get to a

19:33

billion dollars in revenue, get to a know, dollars

19:35

faster than you think, you know,

19:37

they than you think. they're available all these they

19:39

give and they're available and they give these no longer

19:41

buy any of longer buy any of every

19:43

executive, every C C-level you can

19:46

think of multiple times. times. I have I

19:48

from the from the best companies. I

19:50

have hired people that went from

19:52

zero to 200 million in revenue

19:54

in four years. four years. I've I've hired

19:56

them all, I know them all. I'm I'm

19:58

much more disciplined in my interview process. and no

20:00

one no one joins until they

20:02

until they have me as a for me.

20:05

I'm as a contract. put you to I'm going

20:07

to put you to work. going to be I am

20:09

gonna be how exactly how I am with

20:11

everybody in the company today. And

20:13

if you don't deliver at a level that is,

20:16

that is world class in that one

20:18

that one or two frame,

20:20

frame. will be no room will be no

20:22

room for you, I'm And I'm focusing mostly

20:24

on engineers right now. Everybody has to

20:26

have a clear role of what they

20:28

do. what they do. very difficult to be

20:30

part of this be part right? 100, right?

20:32

on the other side then? What do you think is gonna

20:34

be the hardest thing about building agency? the The

20:36

building agency is building always, always

20:38

about product. always, always It's

20:40

always about always management. Everybody

20:43

thinks that, thinks just put

20:45

an put on it, on

20:47

some stuff, some stuff, a meeting,

20:49

a meeting, and... B-B-B-B-B- here's the the

20:51

next CR-M. Here's the next customer platform,

20:53

right? No, right? no, no, no, It's like like

20:55

Being in the in the weeds with a cut

20:57

product is the most is

20:59

the is the hardest part. part.

21:02

are solving one tiny part of

21:04

the problem. of the We still have

21:06

to build the products. products that solve a

21:08

solve a specific problem, the

21:10

solution, right? If everything If everything was

21:13

just it to the and it does

21:15

it, but we have to transform

21:17

organizations from very large organizations

21:19

struggling, it's a lot of chaos

21:21

There's a lot of chaos in the the post

21:24

sales organizations sales we need somebody

21:26

to go in and understand

21:28

them. to go Talk to them, nurture

21:30

them, to see what's broken. what's

21:32

broken, and transition into the the future,

21:34

right? It's not something, I've talked to

21:36

CEOs of public companies and no CEO

21:38

comes to me and says, I

21:40

wanna change everything right now. to Just

21:43

throw it away, let's swap it. it away,

21:45

so swap companies don't understand that change

21:47

management is the hardest part to

21:49

get through. is the Building a product that

21:51

people can use, gaining trust

21:53

from an LLM, I mean, people

21:55

are people are, people like, it's okay

21:57

if you get you get the summary of

21:59

a from. L.M. like like nobody cares, right

22:01

It's like like It's great. Look

22:03

at this. I can read faster read

22:05

faster but to to trust the output

22:07

of an LLM to send

22:09

an email to a dollar customer. it's

22:11

like you like, you know, when you

22:13

present that to a a to a CSM they're

22:15

like looking at it and they're like and

22:18

every word. they're questioning have no

22:20

idea. in questioning every word in that email. Yet

22:22

when they're writing their emails, they're not questioning

22:24

their words, right? And they're just as

22:26

bad. and they're it's like. it's

22:28

like Do we have a have a long road

22:31

ahead for this. This is, this is a problem

22:33

that that there's not It's

22:35

not one solution to it. right? This is

22:37

this is not LLLM or or one foundational

22:39

LLM is going to be able

22:41

to fix. to be able to fix. I

22:43

know, know. AGI will solve everything, but...

22:46

but whatever. I don't, it's I'm

22:48

not worried about that. I'm

22:50

really worried worried about what is

22:52

it is it that I wanna build? as

22:54

I listen to to the customers, To

22:56

my customers, And how

22:58

we're... How How do I take him where I want to take

23:00

him, to take do they want to come along in the journey with me?

23:03

to come I want to take

23:05

the last few minutes and

23:07

talk a little bit just

23:09

about few software industry, little because industry,

23:11

bit just about somebody who's been

23:13

building software for been years, you're

23:15

pretty anti -software now. Like,

23:17

as if now, quite dismissive of

23:19

quite I've just been putting

23:21

shit in databases shit it back

23:23

out. and taking it back out. Like explain yourself,

23:25

like what, do you think that's

23:27

irrelevant? People are like, oh oh my

23:29

God, like AGI is going to, you know, humanity. What's

23:32

gonna happen, right? to I'm telling

23:34

people like they're enslaved today. We

23:36

make fun of it, but fun wants

23:38

to be a sales rep? to be

23:40

You know, that after you know, meeting, you

23:43

finish a puts like a task to

23:45

remind you, to remind the customer customer to

23:47

do something else else, mean, it's just

23:49

like, I just I just think it's

23:51

utterly ridiculous that we just, like the

23:53

emperor has no clothes. Nobody wants to

23:55

say anything about this. this. Our Our

23:58

software is shit. Everything is... I mean,

24:00

mean, there's, there's no good software

24:02

out there. is great, right? you

24:04

need You need to go somewhere, you call it,

24:06

shows up, up, it takes you there, right? you there,

24:08

right? fantastic. So a one product

24:10

Delias likes. Elias likes, okay, just want

24:12

people to realize that to Why

24:15

do you why do you want all this information

24:17

in all the systems, and if it

24:19

doesn't do anything for you. For example, doesn't do

24:21

anything for you, I install CRM,

24:23

at I install Salesforce? I install

24:25

a CRM? Should should buy Salesforce? sales

24:27

force? is a is a monstrosity of

24:29

a software that I would have to have to

24:31

hire somebody else to go configure. And then

24:34

I don't know how then I don't know how to use it.

24:36

And then that person that is gonna configure it for me, do

24:38

you think that person knows how to do business better than

24:40

I do? do or knows my customers. I do

24:42

or knows my customers? They don't, and

24:44

so they're gonna tell me some antiquated way of

24:47

way of working with my customers and

24:49

what to do, and then I have

24:51

to hire people to put stuff into

24:53

the software. the software. And

24:55

And then I have to have people to

24:57

manage those people to monitor what they put

24:59

into that software. that At what point did

25:01

we talk to the talk to the customer?

25:04

I telling I'm you should just

25:06

throw away your instance of your instance

25:08

Throw it in the trash. throw it's the

25:10

trash. Like, is it doing for you?

25:12

We're just so busy configuring it and

25:14

sending data to it. And we

25:16

don't ever use the data that is in

25:18

it. data that is in it. And so, Software has

25:20

to transform to do things for

25:22

me. for me. without me

25:24

even asking. we are are in

25:26

the era where hey, Eliza, you're going

25:29

to speak in San Elias, you're going

25:31

to speak in San Francisco. of a jet blue a

25:33

calendar of under my on my entry into

25:35

my calendar. look at should read it. Let me

25:37

look at everybody that always asks you

25:39

to grab coffee in San Francisco and send

25:41

them a message, a I'm in town. town. And

25:43

I'm in in town from this day to

25:45

this day. day. And this is and lock out you know two hours

25:47

lots hour slots every day and say, me

25:49

if you want, meet me here. I'm gonna

25:51

be at this coffee shop and let's

25:53

catch up. up. Prioritize that my customers

25:55

my customers that I'm trying to chase

25:58

send send them two weeks in advance. messages

26:00

that are repeating every three days,

26:02

right? Why can't we we

26:04

have software that does that? That sells first to

26:06

you? useful, yeah. That sounds useful, right? It's

26:08

a, that's the level that we want. Like, you

26:10

know, so when you can text someone, it

26:12

just gets done. Like that's,

26:14

that's wealth, right? And so we

26:16

want software to, to make

26:18

us feel wealthy, right? Yes, I

26:21

don't, I do not feel wealthy from my software

26:23

today. Exactly, right? How

26:25

long does it take for

26:27

this to happen? Like Like, for

26:29

this disruption of, you know,

26:31

software that enslaves us to, to

26:33

free us So like, and does anybody

26:35

get to stick around? Like, does

26:38

anybody from the old world of

26:40

the databases holding? holding

26:42

our data and creating these

26:44

workflows get to. sustain? I

26:46

think there's a lot of infrastructure that

26:48

is needed, right? So that's, good news

26:50

for that, right? We have, we, we're

26:52

to need places to store this information.

26:55

We need the internet, right? I'm talking

26:57

at the solution level. The old wrappers

26:59

of databases are going to be dead.

27:01

Like, there's just no way they survive.

27:03

unless they adapt quickly. What we're missing

27:05

is more people like us at

27:07

agency where we're thinking fundamentally from first

27:10

principles and saying, let's build this

27:12

new type of software. That's,

27:14

that's word that we need to spread,

27:16

right? Is like I see all

27:18

these new CRMs coming up, right? And

27:20

they're like, it's still the same

27:22

views, the same tables, except they have

27:24

like AI computer table. We need

27:26

to fundamentally think software that is almost

27:29

invisible, right? I think that we

27:31

need more people thinking this way and

27:33

not just like, oh, let me

27:35

just improve you know, work day let

27:37

me just improve you know, Augusto

27:39

or this and just, we need to

27:41

be thinking how do we really

27:43

solve the customer problems from a different

27:45

perspective? Laziness, don't bother them. Don't

27:47

tell him what you're going do. Just do it. get

27:51

verification, right? As for suggestions,

27:53

learn with the customer what,

27:55

they're like, what they like,

27:57

and create that personalized experience.

27:59

We need... more to do do Once we

28:01

have examples of that software, which is what we're

28:03

doing at agency, at agency, I think more people are

28:05

going to see and say, to see that's where we

28:07

should go. we should go. because of the LLMs, a a

28:09

lot of people are going to be able to

28:11

build things much faster. things much faster. then the big rebuilding

28:13

will begin. I hope that happens. I

28:15

hope I get to be part

28:17

of some of these companies. I, companies.

28:20

of you know, these you said that

28:22

really speaks to me. I work

28:24

very hard, I have some very

28:26

I'm a very disorganized person. I'm a

28:28

And I felt bad about this

28:30

for I felt bad of the last two

28:33

decades. of the last two But But I if

28:35

you were more ambitious about the

28:37

expectations you'd had for software, had

28:39

you might say you why am I

28:41

filing why am I filing shit? labeling shit. Anyway, and

28:43

trying to force to some all of this

28:45

into some project management database framework

28:48

or whatever for coordination purposes. like

28:50

It feels like we should be

28:52

able to accept humans as they

28:54

are because I'm like, all right,

28:56

I am not that operationally disciplined,

28:58

but there are a lot of

29:00

people who don't want to be

29:02

organizing their data all the time,

29:04

just like me. so And so maybe

29:06

that'll be the better the better way. I

29:08

think you have incredible strengths, right? To to where you

29:10

are, where you are, to have a you

29:13

you have a chief, is is because

29:15

you're special and talented, right? The good The

29:17

good thing is that you don't need organizational

29:20

skills. a necessity, you know, it's not a

29:22

need know, you to a need for you

29:24

to become more successful than you are

29:26

today, right? thing The good thing is that

29:28

that's exactly what the the computer should

29:30

solve for you. you. I I hate doing,

29:32

I challenge everything. to If I don't need

29:34

to do something, like for example, when

29:36

I first came here, here, I'm terrible terrible

29:38

at writing in English, right? And then And

29:41

then every time, before came came out,

29:43

I would be like, I should learn

29:45

that skill. I mean, should learn that

29:47

skill. theory I mean, you know, you, you

29:49

know, that about the buckets that there's

29:51

like five levels of something mediocre and then really

29:53

then really bad and then really good,

29:55

that it it takes like 10 years to

29:57

shift buckets, you know, to to you be like,

29:59

to go from average. to like you know know, so it says

30:01

And so it says things on the

30:03

things where you only have to move

30:05

one level don't try to to be better,

30:07

one don't try to go from the

30:09

one that you're the poorest to the

30:11

top, right? you're And so at you're not

30:13

good at, the just let it be. And

30:15

the like AI should tell you everything my questions

30:17

should tell you everything, my questions, what

30:19

to ask me, prepare the finger and you

30:22

shouldn't lift the finger. But you can

30:24

do your magic and that's AI can do and you

30:26

AI can do that, you know, know because

30:28

it's you. you just to be clear,

30:30

I came up with the questions this time,

30:32

but in the future, but in the future, you know, I much

30:34

look forward to being told what to do with

30:36

the what minute before the actually setting my avatar.

30:38

It's going to be great. then you and I

30:41

can just get a beer and that'll be

30:43

it. avatar, it's going But be great. what

30:45

matters, right? It's the relationship, right?

30:47

It's the friendship. a beer I think this is

30:49

great. I think this is good. Okay. But One

30:51

shot, what matters, right? the whole

30:53

podcast. Thank you for the

30:55

It's the friendship. I think this is great.

30:58

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