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0:33

If you're

0:35

not a tiger parent, what animal parent are

0:37

you? Maybe a mongoose or something? How

0:40

about a rabbit? I'm Angela

0:42

Duckworth. I'm Stephen Dubner. And you're

0:44

listening to no stupid questions. Today

0:47

on the show, do bratty

0:49

kids become bratty adults? When

0:51

I was growing up, if anybody asked

0:53

me, who are the popular kids, I

0:56

would say, well, Meredith is popular. In

0:58

which prison is she in today? Also,

1:01

what makes a good friendship? We

1:04

remember the same commercial for aluminum

1:06

siding. Angela,

1:11

I have a question here from a listener. Would

1:14

you entertain that? Of course. This

1:16

is a listener named Sydney, and she

1:18

writes to say, it's an

1:20

ongoing debate I have with my husband.

1:22

We don't have kids, but do

1:24

shitty kids make shitty

1:27

adults? She continues,

1:29

I don't like to be around bratty

1:31

kids, but is there any research

1:33

that brats actually make worse adults or

1:35

does society mold them into likable

1:37

humans? So Angela, I

1:39

find Sydney's question compelling not just

1:41

on the specifics of whether, quote, kids

1:44

become, quote, adults, whatever that

1:46

might mean, but really the bigger

1:48

question of how much of

1:50

our adult selves was evident and

1:52

perhaps foreordained by our child

1:54

selves. I think it's a

1:56

great question and it is one of

1:58

the big questions in all of social

2:00

science. How much is

2:02

our future life either.

2:05

predicted by or determined by who

2:07

we are earlier. And if

2:09

you go back to quotes by

2:11

philosophers and theologians, there are

2:13

sometimes these like, show me the

2:15

child, I'll show you the

2:17

man, your character is set like

2:19

plaster at a very young

2:21

age. And I think the answer

2:23

to this question with what

2:25

we know now about genes, about

2:27

environment, about life course history

2:29

is that there is some but

2:31

not complete Stability over

2:34

our life course of who we are I

2:36

mean your genes are the same for your

2:38

whole life just to point out the obvious

2:40

and genes do have an influence on everything

2:42

about you But one thing that's not the

2:44

same at every moment your life is your

2:46

experiences So if you have a really really

2:48

shy kid and you say hey What do

2:50

you think this person is gonna be like

2:52

when they're 35 years old? You can guess

2:54

better than chance that they're gonna be shyer

2:56

than average But you're also gonna be wrong

2:58

in a lot of cases, but I think

3:00

the big question is Let's

3:03

say that there's a

3:05

huge childhood deficit on

3:07

any dimension, social, emotional,

3:09

intellectual, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

3:11

What do we know on any of

3:14

those dimensions about the best ways to,

3:16

quote, catch up? Yeah. So one

3:18

thing to recognize about development

3:20

is it's not. Steady and at

3:22

the same pace all throughout

3:24

you can have spurts like you

3:27

screw four inches over the

3:29

summer and then a plateau and

3:31

then another spurt so psychological

3:33

development is similarly not Always

3:35

as steady and gradual as

3:37

you might think and that's

3:39

relevant to this brattiness question

3:42

because you could have a

3:44

sudden leap forward in maturation

3:46

where this kid suddenly is

3:48

a lot more considerate letting

3:50

other people actually. Talk uninterrupted

3:52

etc etc and if you

3:54

allow for that kind of spurty

3:56

development it also gives you

3:58

a little bit. of sanity,

4:00

maybe, right? Like, while they're driving

4:02

you crazy, you're not thinking, well,

4:04

this pace, we're never going to

4:06

get to maturity. What are some

4:08

childhood behaviors or traits that are

4:10

known to be temporary or fleeting?

4:14

Well, the Sydney question was about brattiness

4:16

and I have to imagine maybe

4:18

she's talking about like going over to

4:20

some couple's house with her husband

4:22

and then there's like a bratty two

4:24

-year -old. That is an age where

4:26

kids really struggle in general with emotion

4:28

regulation and delay of gratification and

4:30

therefore they're having temper tantrums and eating

4:32

things they weren't supposed to eat

4:34

and touching things they weren't supposed to

4:36

touch all the time. I mean

4:38

there's a reason why we call them

4:41

the terrible twos and for a

4:43

lot of kids it's like the terrible

4:45

threes also but developmentally most of

4:47

those kids are just going to grow

4:49

out of that. They're prefrontal cortex

4:51

which is the part of your brain

4:53

right behind your forehead. That's going

4:55

to evolve and develop in pretty amazing

4:57

ways and it's going to help

4:59

that kid control their emotions and

5:01

their bodies better and better. So I

5:03

don't think you have to go over

5:06

to some couple's house, observe their toddler

5:08

who's basically being a pain and call

5:10

the police because like eventually the kid's

5:12

going to grow up to be a

5:14

vandal. I think that's developmentally

5:16

quite normal. And on the basis

5:18

of one or two dinner parties, I wouldn't want to

5:20

say anybody's kid is going to be anything other than

5:22

a great kid. However, I do

5:25

want to say this, even as

5:27

early as the preschool years. There's

5:29

a very, very small

5:31

number of children, percentage -wise, who

5:33

are called callous unemotional. And

5:36

it's just what it sounds like.

5:38

Those kids tend to not care about

5:40

other people's feelings and then potentially

5:43

hurt other people when they get older.

5:45

But to calm the nerves of

5:47

worried parents out there, it's very rare.

5:49

I'm really curious whether popularity at a

5:51

young age, let's say going up through

5:54

whatever high school, whether

5:56

that's indicative or predictive

5:58

of the future. And

6:00

some research that I've seen indicates

6:02

that, yes, popularity gives you a

6:04

number of potential advantages from confidence

6:06

to network effect and so on.

6:08

But I've also seen some

6:11

evidence arguing that popularity is the kind of

6:13

thing that's currency that sort of evaporates

6:15

by the time you're in your 20s and

6:17

may not serve you that well. So

6:19

Mitch Princeton, who is just a

6:22

terrific psychologist, knows a lot about it.

6:24

And he wrote this book called

6:26

Popular, Finding Happiness and Success in a

6:28

World that Cares Too Much about

6:30

the Wrong Kinds of Relationships. Mitch Princeton's

6:32

thesis here is that there's really

6:34

at least two kinds of popular. When

6:36

I was growing up, if anybody

6:39

asked me, like, who are the popular

6:41

kids. I would say, well,

6:43

Meredith is popular and she was.

6:45

In which prison is she in today?

6:49

You know, I googled her recently and

6:51

I think she's grown up to live

6:53

a very fine life as a museum

6:55

curator, but she was super popular. Anyway,

6:57

there is this kind of popular that

6:59

most kids think about when you say

7:01

popular and that is pecking order popular,

7:03

the popular crowd. It's basically the kids

7:05

who are the top of the social

7:07

hierarchy. Usually in movies, they're displayed as

7:09

both popular and mean, you know, like

7:11

mean girls, for example, my favorite movies.

7:13

There's another kind of popular though that

7:15

Mitch Princeton wants to argue is the

7:17

good kind of popular. And that is

7:19

like the person who's likable, right? And

7:21

if you want to get at these

7:23

kids, you can't ask other children who's

7:25

popular. You have to say, like, who

7:27

do you like? Sometimes it's called sociometric

7:29

popularity, not very catchy. You ask

7:31

all the kids in sixth grade, who do

7:34

you like? And then you get the

7:36

real popularity score. And that is super predictive

7:38

of lots of good outcomes. So

7:40

likability is a desirable trait or a

7:42

positive trait. But pecking order is more

7:44

like, who can I push around when

7:46

I'm young? Yeah, and I don't

7:48

pecking order is necessarily bad. I

7:50

think this like 16 candles movie sort

7:53

of dramatization of the kids are high

7:55

in the hierarchy is that they're always

7:57

evil. That's not always true. I can

7:59

remember in my high school that there

8:01

were certain nice popular kids. I mean,

8:03

granted, not all of them, but I

8:05

do think that kids who are likable.

8:08

when they are young, grow up to

8:10

be relatively likable when they're older, on

8:12

average. And I think that's another

8:14

thing that parents could actually think like, what can

8:16

I do to help my kid be more

8:18

likable? So what can you do? I

8:21

think the parenting style that has

8:23

by far the most scientific evidence

8:25

of it being a good parenting

8:27

style is called the authoritative parenting

8:29

style. Did you say authoritarian? I'm

8:32

gonna write that down, being

8:34

the authoritarian parent. I gotta tell

8:36

ya, being an Asian mother...

8:38

I'm so frequently confused with tiger

8:40

mom. But no, I don't

8:42

mean authoritarian parenting, which is, I think,

8:44

at least the stereotype of tiger

8:46

parenting, right? Like, you must practice your

8:48

piano. You must practice it for

8:50

four hours a day. You must not

8:52

get below 100 on any exam.

8:54

You cannot have sleepovers ever even after

8:56

the pandemic. I mean, this

8:58

is not what I'm talking

9:00

about. And there is a

9:03

term in parenting research called

9:05

authoritarian, and that is very

9:07

demanding and very low. on

9:09

warmth and low, on

9:11

respect for autonomy is the term, but

9:13

basically allowing your kids to have their own

9:15

opinions and their own perspective on life.

9:17

Let me just clarify. If you're not a

9:19

tiger parent, what animal parent are you? Gosh,

9:23

what animal is it that like works

9:25

all the time and occasionally looks over to

9:27

see whether their kids are okay? Maybe

9:29

a mongoose or something. How about a rabbit?

9:31

I don't know, rabbit hole is twitching. So

9:34

anyway, authoritative parents, which I will

9:36

continue to think what animal it is

9:38

that is represented by this. But

9:40

it's this combination of being demanding, just

9:42

like tiger parents are, just like

9:44

authoritarian parents are. But the

9:46

trick is, it's also very

9:49

warm and it's very respectful

9:51

of the kid's autonomy. So

9:53

I think that if you ask the question

9:55

like, what can parents do to help their kids

9:57

not be bratty? And what can parents do

10:00

help their kids? be

10:02

successful and contributors to society,

10:04

it's always in the research that I've

10:06

read the same answer, which is

10:08

authoritative parenting. You smack them with one

10:10

hand and hug them with the

10:13

other. That's what you're describing. Well,

10:15

I know it sounds like a contradiction

10:17

in terms. Like, how can you be demanding

10:19

but also warm? I think you know

10:21

what I mean, though. I do because A

10:23

lot of Jewish families are like that

10:25

also. There's a very high level of expectation

10:27

and engagement and encouragement. Sometimes, you

10:29

know, encouragement that feels more

10:31

like authoritarianism. or could be perceived

10:34

as such from the outside. Yes,

10:36

exactly. But it's also countered with

10:38

a kind of deep, unconditional love

10:40

and sense of belonging. And what

10:42

about autonomy? You don't have to speak

10:44

for all Jews. But like, for

10:46

your own family, how much autonomy

10:48

do you allow your two

10:50

kids? Much more than would have

10:52

been allowed two generations

10:54

ago. But I think that's more

10:57

a factor of society than

10:59

our internal compasses, because I think

11:01

our internal compasses want to

11:03

go back. to the circumstances in

11:05

which we were raised where there was

11:07

less autonomy, but it feels very, very out

11:09

of step with our kids' social cohort.

11:11

But did you, with your kids, say you

11:13

should do this for your extracurricular activities,

11:15

for example? We did, and it didn't work

11:17

that well. And so I think we

11:19

kind of gave up. What did you want

11:22

your kids to do, like music? You

11:24

know, just the standard panoply of things. Plus,

11:26

it was colored by the fact that

11:28

in my case, I just did

11:30

a lot when I was a kid

11:32

because there was nothing to do where

11:34

I grew up in the country. So

11:36

I did a lot of music and

11:38

a lot of sports and a lot

11:40

of writing, a lot of blowing things

11:42

up and building things and so on.

11:44

So to me, that was what life

11:46

was. My kids grew up in a

11:48

totally different environment in New York City

11:50

where there's a social environment that is

11:52

incredibly variegated and rich. And so a

11:55

lot of their involvements were more kind

11:57

of interpersonal involvement. Whereas I spent the

11:59

better part of my first 16 years

12:01

pretty much alone with either a guitar or

12:03

a hammer or a typewriter. And did

12:05

you try to get them to have more

12:07

of your sort of interests? I

12:09

did. And they mostly didn't stick. And

12:12

that was kind of hard for a while.

12:14

Like, what do you mean my kid

12:16

doesn't want to have a punk band when

12:18

they're 13 and so on? That's respect

12:20

for autonomy, right? Like if your kid says,

12:22

you know, I want to major in English

12:24

and you think that's a terrible

12:26

idea and you let them do it

12:29

anyway. You know, I think for

12:31

many parents being warm, like unconditional love,

12:33

that's intuitive. I think for

12:35

some parents being demanding also

12:37

is relatively intuitive. But

12:40

I think this idea of autonomy

12:42

and autonomy support is it's hard and

12:44

I've struggled with it because it's

12:46

really, really hard not to feel like

12:48

you know best. And I

12:50

think that's the part of authoritative parenting

12:52

that is just easy to get wrong. But

12:55

in terms of being likable, I would give

12:57

a second recommendation, which is to model what

12:59

you're asking your kids to be. So for

13:01

example, Part of likeability is

13:03

to be very empathic, right? Like to

13:05

watch for other people's emotions and

13:07

to be interested in how other people

13:09

are feeling. I mean, here is

13:11

another perspective on this, which I was just

13:13

reading the other day. I got so excited. I

13:16

literally sent the author of this article and

13:18

email that was just like nothing more or less

13:20

than like, I loved your article. Thank you. Her

13:22

name is Shelly Gable. We don't have to

13:24

bleep her name like Meredith. No,

13:26

you don't. So Shelly Gable

13:29

is a professor psychology

13:31

at University of California, Santa

13:33

Barbara. And this article, it

13:35

was about responsiveness in parenting, but

13:37

also any one -on -one relationship. So this

13:39

applies if you have kids, but

13:41

it also applies to Sydney because Sydney's

13:43

got a husband and also applies

13:45

to anybody who has a friendship or

13:47

any other one -on -one relationship. And

13:49

the idea is that what we're often

13:51

and maybe even always looking for

13:54

in a relationship with another person is

13:56

for them to be responsive. And

13:58

she says that really means three things.

14:00

The first is to really see

14:02

the other person, to kind of understand

14:04

what the person is feeling or

14:06

thinking or what they like and what

14:08

their attitudes are. The second one

14:10

is to respect them. And that's kind

14:12

of respect for autonomy. So as

14:14

a parent, can I respect what my

14:16

kids actually think about the world,

14:18

even if it's different from myself? And

14:20

the third dimension is really like

14:22

this warm and caring thing. Like I

14:24

care about you in this very

14:26

elemental, profound way. So when I think

14:29

about parents who want to raise

14:31

kids who are likable, like popular in

14:33

the best sense of the word,

14:35

I think if you do that, honestly,

14:37

that's most of parenting, right? Be a

14:40

good role model and try to

14:42

do these responsive and yet. appropriately demanding

14:44

things. So I kind of

14:46

glean that Sydney is asking this question,

14:48

having already made the decision to

14:50

not have kids. But maybe I'm wrong.

14:52

Maybe they're thinking about it. Maybe

14:54

they're thinking, well, what if our kids

14:56

are nasty kids? I'm

14:58

not going to recommend to

15:00

Sydney whether she should have

15:02

kids or not. But I

15:05

can say that I wouldn't

15:07

let a couple of dinner

15:09

parties with especially bratty two -year

15:11

-olds or 15 -year -olds dissuade

15:13

her from having kids because,

15:15

in most instances, the

15:17

kids will grow out of those

15:19

stages with the help of

15:22

parents who are good role models

15:24

and authoritative. And the upsides

15:26

of having children are what again,

15:28

generally, said the father of

15:30

two teenagers? Do I need to

15:33

remind you? Well, you know,

15:35

it's interesting. It's so much work, but

15:37

When I think about my lowest lows

15:39

and my like sleepless nights, it is

15:41

because of parenting, not because of work.

15:43

The things that make me just, you

15:45

know, grind my teeth into dust, etc.

15:47

So why do we do it? There's

15:49

the obvious, which is there's a biological...

15:51

for many of us. It's so primitive

15:53

that we can't even put words on

15:55

it. But the other thing is this,

15:57

I have seen you parent and I

15:59

know how much you love your kids.

16:01

So you tell me if I'm wrong,

16:03

but like the greatest joys are also

16:05

your kids. Just the relief that they

16:08

came home safe that day. And just

16:10

like funny things they say and you're

16:12

like, oh my gosh, I like you

16:14

so much. I love you so much.

16:16

So what do you think? I agree

16:18

entirely. The biological imperative is so strong

16:20

that we often don't even recognize it.

16:22

I think we do it for a

16:24

million different reasons. There's tradition, there's

16:26

love, there's seeing everybody else do it

16:28

and think that it must make sense. But

16:30

to me, once you've made the decision,

16:33

once you have the kids, it

16:35

really is the world's greatest

16:37

science experiment. But it's done in

16:39

a way that most science experiments are

16:41

not. Like there is data all over.

16:43

There are literally 7 .3 billion people

16:45

on earth. So theoretically, we

16:48

should know every answer. And yet, Instead,

16:50

we all like to tinker in

16:52

our workshops and some people subscribe to

16:54

best practices. Literally, your

16:57

profession is to come up with essentially best

16:59

practices for a certain kind of child rearing

17:01

and so on. But I think most of

17:03

us are fumbling in the dark and having

17:05

a fantastic time while we do it, except

17:07

for the times when we're having a miserable

17:09

time. There are 7 .3 billion

17:11

people. You could say, well, there's so

17:13

much data, but you know what we

17:15

don't have? We don't have a control

17:17

group. And I think that is why

17:19

it feels to many parents more like

17:21

an art than a science because you've

17:23

got one kid, maybe two at most.

17:26

I don't know, 10 or something like

17:28

it, but you don't really have the

17:30

opportunity to try it this way. And

17:32

then like, let me try the toddler

17:35

years this other way and see what

17:37

happens. I think that's why when we

17:39

were parents of young kids, one thing

17:41

that I recognized for me was really

17:43

useful was listening to what teachers and

17:45

doctors had to say because they'd seen

17:47

it a thousand times before. And I'd

17:49

only seen it once. And

17:52

I'm very biased. And

17:54

so a lot of reassurance

17:56

came from professionals, essentially, who've seen

17:58

it. So for Sydney, you

18:00

know, I don't know. I

18:03

think rabbits are great pets. Dogs are

18:05

pretty good. Kids are

18:07

definitely more complicated, theoretically

18:09

more rewarding, definitely

18:11

more expensive. I think

18:13

if you have a pet elephant, it

18:15

might get up there in terms of cost

18:17

compared to a child. So as long

18:19

as you don't have a pet elephant, Sydney,

18:21

I think you're fine. Yeah. Well, I'm

18:24

not sure Sydney had originally asked us for

18:26

advice on whether to procreate or not.

18:28

I think this was just like, how do

18:30

I handle my next dinner party with

18:32

a bunch of bratty kids who come over

18:34

with their parents? Just in case, though,

18:36

because I think more and more people are

18:38

turning to podcasts for essential advice about

18:40

how to live your life, don't you think?

18:42

Yeah, well, hopefully not ours, but sure. Still

18:46

to come on No Stupid Questions, what

18:49

do friendship and physical therapy have

18:51

in common? Hope you think of

18:53

me as a cap stretch. If

19:02

your small business is booming, you

19:04

might say, chuk-choo! But you should

19:06

say, like a good neighbor, state

19:09

farm is there, and we'll help

19:11

your growing business. Like a

19:13

good neighbor, state farm is there.

19:17

Sometimes it feels like the world is

19:19

moving at hyper speed and you can't

19:21

keep up because it's one thing than

19:23

another and don't forget the meeting

19:25

on the yoga class in the dinner

19:28

reservation, but then... You get into the

19:30

all-new Nissan morano and you feel the

19:32

breeze from the panoramic moon roof while

19:35

the massaging seats melt away the tension

19:37

of the day and you realize that

19:39

sometimes the greatest rush is not rushing

19:41

at all-new morano at Nissan

19:43

USA. Or available features are

19:46

available features. Are you

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slash credit card based on the February

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2024 Nelson report. So

20:16

I know that you are doing

20:18

some research on friendship. Yes, that

20:21

is correct. So here's my question

20:23

for you. What's so good about

20:25

friendship? Well, for starters, having

20:27

friends is probably the number one predictor

20:29

of being a happy person. No,

20:31

it is true. Not having friends

20:33

being the number one predictor of

20:36

being unhappy. Wow. OK, so. That

20:38

immediately makes me want to know

20:40

if it's really causal. In

20:42

other words, am I happy because

20:44

I'm the kind of person who

20:46

attracts friends and am I unhappy because

20:48

I'm the kind of person who

20:50

doesn't attract friends or does having friends

20:52

feed happiness? So I think most

20:55

things in life are actually reciprocally causal.

20:57

In this case, how do you know that

21:00

there's any causal direction from having friends

21:02

towards happiness? Right. I know how you could

21:04

know. You could take like a thousand

21:06

really happy people and divide them into two

21:08

groups of two. Or take away their

21:10

friends. Exactly. Okay. Yes. That's true.

21:12

I think you've obviously shown how hard it

21:14

is. I will say this. The striking

21:16

correlation is at least suggestive that it's not

21:18

a bad thing to have friends. And

21:20

when I say it's the best predictor, like

21:23

for example, it's a better predictor than

21:25

having money. or having a really prestigious job.

21:27

And you know this, how good is

21:29

the research on this? So there's one study,

21:31

for example, called the Very Happy People

21:33

Study. And they just surveyed a

21:35

bunch of people on their happiness on a

21:37

variety of scales to get like a

21:39

really precise measure of how happy they felt

21:42

they were. It's subjective, obviously, because happiness

21:44

is subjective. And then they just asked them

21:46

about lots of other things that plausibly

21:48

could produce happiness. For instance, do you like

21:50

your work and family and things? Exactly.

21:52

Things like that achievement. So

21:54

this finding that friendships are the most

21:56

associated with happiness. To me, as

21:58

a social scientist, it's like, at some

22:00

point you have to put together

22:03

the evidence that there is with just

22:05

common sense. Okay. So

22:07

let's say that we accept this

22:09

finding, right? Or maybe we

22:11

put finding in quotes. You can

22:13

put in air quotes. But

22:15

you're right. It does have common

22:17

sense. So let's say that

22:19

I decide that having friends is

22:21

important and valuable. What about symmetry

22:23

or asymmetry in friendships. In other

22:26

words, how asymmetrical can a good

22:28

friendship be? Because I think we've

22:30

all had experiences where you're the

22:32

friend who's always the one that's

22:34

maintaining or reaching out and then

22:36

sometimes it's the other way. Well,

22:38

first of all, almost none is

22:40

known scientifically about friendship, and I'm

22:42

exaggerating a little bit, but a

22:44

lot of people study marriage and

22:46

divorce and romantic relationships and intimacy,

22:48

but actually very few social scientists

22:50

study platonic friendship, which of course

22:52

made me want to study it

22:54

more. So, okay, you asked

22:56

about reciprocity. My kind of synthesis

22:58

of what is known is that reciprocity

23:00

is important for like long -term durability.

23:03

Asymmetric relationships don't endure for very long. One

23:05

person basically gets resentful, so they can

23:07

kind of dissolve. If you just even reflect

23:09

on your own friendships, it's not that

23:11

at every given point of time it has

23:13

to be 50 -50. There can be periods

23:15

of time where like one friend is

23:17

just needier and then the other person is

23:19

more of a giver. But I do

23:21

think there has to be this give and

23:23

take because isn't that what a friendship

23:25

is in a way, right? It's a communal

23:27

relationship. And once it becomes lopsided in

23:29

a permanent way, it's no longer like we're

23:31

of the same piece. Right.

23:33

So let me ask you

23:35

this. What about friendships outside

23:37

of your own status rank. Oh,

23:40

you mean like if you're friends with

23:42

the Prince of Wales? Yeah,

23:44

maybe not that person, but

23:46

it strikes me that

23:48

most good friendships that I'm

23:50

aware of are among

23:53

people who are within a

23:55

pretty tight band of

23:57

what you'd consider socioeconomic status

23:59

generally. Oh, yes. Okay,

24:01

one of the predictors of both romantic

24:03

and platonic relationships is homophily. In

24:05

other words, that like, likes, likes, so

24:07

birds of a feather. My husband

24:09

actually subscribes this theory because we met.

24:11

Oh, I thought you're going to

24:14

say he subscribes to homophily illustrated and

24:16

I was going to say, I

24:18

want that too. Okay, sorry. So we

24:20

met an Oxford, England, and we

24:22

were both there on fellowships, but his

24:24

theory is that because we're both

24:26

from basically the tri -state area, meaning

24:28

affectionately like the area around Philadelphia, so

24:31

I guess that's what New Jersey, Pennsylvania,

24:33

and Delaware. New York. Oh, New York, New

24:35

Jersey, Connecticut. Yeah, it depends on where

24:37

you are. Tri -State could mean different things

24:39

depending on which tri -states. There are probably

24:41

a few of them. Yeah. Anyway, we had

24:43

both grown up the same kind of

24:45

like suburban low -brow culture. You know, we

24:47

remember the same commercial for aluminum siding. And

24:50

so we both have this kind

24:52

of cultural heritage, and we gravitated to

24:54

each other in this totally different

24:56

place. But you both went to Ivy

24:58

League schools. We did. We

25:01

were sort of like culturally similar.

25:03

Status -wise. Right. You could say you're both

25:05

from families that were... We're upper -ly

25:07

mobile. Right. All right. Here's a question.

25:09

We often hear people talk about their

25:12

spouse or their partner being their, quote,

25:14

best friend. Yes. And I'm curious, is

25:16

that optimal? I am guessing

25:18

that having a non -romantic, purely

25:20

platonic best friend and a

25:22

romantic partner is healthier than just

25:24

having a romantic partner. I

25:26

think it serves a different function

25:28

in life. Just the odds

25:30

of it's lasting for the rest

25:32

of your life might be

25:34

higher. Meaning the odds of the

25:37

platonic friendship lasting. The platonic

25:39

one, yeah. Do you know

25:41

anything about longevity of deep friendships versus

25:43

longevity of marriage? That's what I want

25:45

to study. I want to study the

25:47

outlier friendships. So let me give you

25:49

an example of an outlier and friendship

25:51

whom we both know. Cendol Melanathum. He's

25:53

an economist. He's now at the University

25:55

of Chicago. Sentel was kind of

25:57

famously a great friend. And I was thinking

25:59

about Sentel in particular because he had canceled

26:01

on an engagement that he was supposed to

26:03

do for me. So he was supposed to

26:06

come to Philadelphia and give a talk. And

26:08

his excuse was a very good friend of

26:10

his was having a baby. Oh, so he

26:12

played the friend card. Well, who goes to

26:14

see their friend a month before they have

26:16

a baby? He had to fly to California

26:18

from Chicago to see them for a week

26:20

because he knew that they'd be busy afterwards.

26:22

But he used his friend credential on another

26:25

friend to Decrease your friendship

26:27

bond. He knew that I was not that

26:29

kind of friend. I actually don't think it would

26:31

be appropriate or understandable if Cento flew to

26:33

see me if I were having a baby. But

26:35

you want to be friends with him? I'd

26:37

love to be friends with him. How's the friendship

26:39

going? Well, I realize that like,

26:41

I don't think I can pay the cost

26:43

of admission. So essentially, Cento said, look,

26:45

my friends are so important to me

26:48

when it was his 40th birthday for the

26:50

month. preceding this birthday, they had

26:52

arranged different surprises for him wherever he was.

26:54

So say he was in Denver giving a

26:56

talk, you know, in his hotel room,

26:58

there would be like this first edition book

27:00

of something that they had discussed at a

27:02

dinner party like 12 years before. And these

27:04

series of surprises culminated in a surprise

27:06

birthday party. He says to this day, it

27:08

may have been the best night of his

27:11

life. That's what I want to study. I

27:13

want to study people like Sendil who

27:15

have had the same friends. You know, I

27:17

don't always think it's from childhood. I think

27:19

oftentimes it just dates back to some other

27:21

early chapter in your life. But I want

27:23

to study them. And here is my hypothesis,

27:25

which is that I think friendship is

27:27

a lot more like physical therapy than you

27:29

would think. In other words, there is this

27:31

kind of time on task and you have

27:33

to call the person. You have to

27:35

make the plans to see each other and

27:38

it's not quite convenient. You don't really feel

27:40

like it. It's raining out. Got a lot

27:42

of work to do. All the

27:44

things that would prevent you from doing

27:46

like your physical therapy are the same things

27:48

that would prevent you from investing in

27:50

friendship. And when I think about my longest

27:52

lived and deepest friendships, I can't say

27:54

that there was immediate chemistry with these people.

27:56

It's not like, oh, it was like

27:59

falling in love and like, I guess I

28:01

just found the right one. It was

28:03

more like these are the friendships where through

28:05

habit, through circumstance and through diligence, we

28:07

reciprocally, we mutually invested a lot

28:09

and called each other, you know,

28:12

once week for now over two

28:14

decades. And those are my closest

28:16

friends. So perhaps not surprisingly

28:18

coming from you, you're telling us that grit

28:20

is useful in friendship formation. It does

28:22

sound like that. Well, yes, I am.

28:24

I'm telling you that. Well, I like this topic and it

28:26

sounds like you have a lot of work to do

28:28

on it. So I'm going to let you go. But can

28:31

I say one thing? I'm glad that we're friends. Thank

28:33

you, Steven. I hope you invest in

28:35

me like you would in physical therapy. I

28:37

hope you think of me as a calf

28:39

stretch. Let's

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to Discover. Learn more at discover.com

30:18

slash credit card based on the February

30:20

2024 Nelson Report. During

30:28

the conversation about parenthood, Stephen

30:30

says that there are 7 .3

30:32

billion people on Earth. But,

30:34

according to the Census Bureau's

30:36

World Population Clock, he

30:38

was off by about 400 million. The

30:40

Census Bureau estimates that there

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are nearly 7 .7 billion people

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on the planet, so plenty of

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data to guide potential parents.

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But sadly, many children will still

30:51

pursue a career in podcasting.

30:53

Sorry, Mom. Later on, Angela

30:55

says that parents don't really

30:57

have the opportunity to fully experiment

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with different child rearing methods

31:02

because you have, quote, one kid,

31:04

maybe two, at most ten

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or something. I'm sure that the

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reigning Guinness Book of World Records holder would beg

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to differ. According to the public

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records from century Russia,

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a woman outside of Moscow gave

31:16

birth to a total of 69

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children, 16 pairs of twins, seven

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sets of triplets, and

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four sets of quadruplets, a

31:25

total of 27 births

31:28

between the years 1725 and

31:30

1765. Her husband reportedly

31:32

had an additional 18 children with

31:34

his second wife, for a total

31:36

of 87 kids, 84 of which

31:38

survived past infancy. That's it for

31:41

the fact check. No

31:44

Stupid Questions is produced by Freakonomics

31:46

Radio and Stitcher. This episode was

31:48

produced by me, Rebecca Lee Douglas.

31:51

No Stupid Questions is part of the

31:53

Freakonomics radio network. Our staff

31:55

includes Allison Craiglow, Greg Rippen,

31:57

James Foster, and Corinne Wallace. Thanks

32:00

also to our intern Emma Turrell for her

32:02

help with this episode. Our theme

32:04

song is And She Was by

32:06

Talking Heads. Special thanks to David Byrne

32:08

and Warner Chapel Music. If

32:10

you have a question for us, please

32:12

share it with nsq at Freakonomics.com. Also,

32:15

if you heard Stephen or Angela refer

32:17

to something that you'd like to learn more

32:19

about, you can check out Freakonomics.com slash

32:21

NSQ, where we link to all of the

32:23

books, studies, and experts that you heard

32:25

about here today. Thanks for listening.

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