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express.com/business. Gold card. Science

1:05

needs rebranding. I'm

1:08

Angela Duckworth. I'm Mike Mon, and

1:10

you're listening to No Stupid Questions. Today

1:13

on the show, how fixed is

1:16

personality? I take comfort in

1:18

knowing that I am just like everyone else

1:20

in deluding myself. Angela,

1:37

today we have a fascinating question

1:39

about how fixed personality is. Mike,

1:42

you and I have been talking

1:44

about personality so much lately. I

1:46

know mostly because I think I need a better one. No,

1:50

but you know what? I think a lot of us feel

1:52

that way. Okay, well let me read you this

1:54

question from Joshua Curtis. Hi, Mike

1:56

and Angela. I Often wonder

1:58

how fixed personality is. I

2:00

feel that while my personality has definite

2:02

patterns, how pronounced those patterns are two

2:04

very given. the environment that I'm in

2:06

the seems to be true both in

2:08

the short term for example, a different

2:10

personality at work than at home but

2:12

also true in the longer term. My

2:14

personality is definitely different now that I'm

2:16

in my late thirties compared to when

2:19

I was in college. This makes me

2:21

wonder if personality test should not be

2:23

used to tell us about six traits

2:25

of we have a rather as tools

2:27

for working to become closer to the

2:29

people we would like. To be are

2:31

there are things we can do

2:33

to intentionally change our personalities. Thanks.

2:36

Joshua Curtis. Can. I

2:38

just think joshua the tests less

2:40

illegally. Live in a particular cultural

2:43

moment where. Self improvement is

2:45

a. Universal. Hobby

2:47

and it is a timeless plus and.

2:49

I mean you know philosophers

2:51

and theologians are various types

2:54

of been pondering character and

2:56

how malleable it is since.

2:58

Forever So Joshua. Great

3:00

question. Before. We jump

3:02

totally is joshua question. I think it

3:04

would help to just. Define. I

3:07

mean what? his personality? Personality

3:10

is something that psychologists would say

3:12

and this is very close to

3:14

I think. What most people would say

3:16

who are not trained psychologists? Personality

3:19

is the pattern us acting,

3:21

thinking and feeling that you

3:23

as that is pretty consistent

3:25

and the emphasis is on

3:27

pretty consistent, not perfectly consistent,

3:29

pretty consistent across situations and

3:32

across time you a your

3:34

tendency to be cheerful or

3:36

grim, your tendency to beat

3:38

talkative or saw your tendency

3:40

to be greedy or somebody

3:43

who gives up easily on

3:45

thing. So when we talk

3:47

about. Personality: The emphasis is on

3:49

kind of the center. Of gravity of

3:51

how we usually be. he's got it.

3:53

The where I love the get back

3:56

to Josh is question and almost segment

3:58

into two parts: One, how to our

4:00

person these chains and then can we

4:03

do things to intentionally change our personalities?

4:05

So I thought it may be interesting

4:07

or maybe overly vulnerable. I don't know

4:09

who to talk about how I think

4:12

my personality has changed over time. I

4:14

would love that. Oh, this is so

4:16

and you might be vulnerable. Tell me.

4:19

This feels uncomfortable. glad and that's okay that

4:21

you had your comfort zone and I think

4:23

maybe before we go into this Dunaj. As

4:25

mentioned the you've share a see these big

4:27

five personality traits is in their general sense

4:30

cause I think that will help me talk

4:32

through the seventies in my personality. Your little.

4:34

Story of young might mine before

4:36

he became make mine as today

4:38

that out for you and for

4:40

Joshua and for anybody else is

4:42

serious about their own personality. Yes

4:44

it would be helpful to say

4:46

on the hassles psychologists everywhere that

4:48

there is an agreed upon classification

4:50

of personality traits and what I

4:52

mean by agreed upon is that

4:55

if you go to University of.

4:57

Washington or you like. Go

4:59

to Stanford or jail or anywhere

5:01

All the psychologist there who cheats

5:04

intro sides will teach students that

5:06

there are size major personality traits.

5:09

They're really personally treat families because

5:11

they they have a bunch of

5:13

very specific traits within them. But

5:16

they're this five families of personality

5:18

traits that have been identified across

5:20

the lifespan. So. Josh being in

5:22

I guess he said his late thirties like

5:25

to for Joshua but also true for. Me

5:27

who I'm in my mid fifties

5:30

and my mom whose eighty nine

5:32

and Even or Sistine your old

5:34

et cetera. So true classless men

5:37

and also to cross culture. So

5:39

on every civilized continent you can

5:41

give people personality inventories and when

5:43

you look at how they respond,

5:46

you find the size clusters of

5:48

personality trait. so what are they?

5:50

There's an acronym that I find

5:52

useful ocean O C E A

5:55

N Right and the five. personality

5:57

families one is openness of

6:00

to experience or open-mindedness, so that's the O.

6:03

C is for conscientiousness, you

6:05

know, color-coded spice racks and organized

6:09

lives and so forth. Then there's E

6:11

for extraversion. There's

6:13

A for agreeableness. And

6:16

the last one's a little bit of a

6:18

downer, sorry, but the N is for neuroticism.

6:21

It's like a kind of anachronistic term, but

6:23

it's about being emotionally labile

6:25

and also having a fair

6:27

amount of negative emotion like

6:29

anger, sadness, anxiety in your

6:31

everyday experience. So O-C-E-A-N. Okay,

6:36

well, let's dive into the ocean

6:39

of my personality. That was such a

6:41

lame. Yes, let's get into the ocean. So

6:43

tell me, I'm so curious. Well,

6:45

I tried to think through, because again, you've shared

6:48

this ocean idea with me before, so I tried

6:50

to go through where maybe I

6:52

was spiking. And so as a kid, I would

6:54

say openness. I was carefree. I

6:56

was very creative, very playful,

6:59

as far as I remember it,

7:01

but somewhat introverted and

7:04

could be kind of shy. Interesting.

7:07

As a teenager, I think

7:10

conscientiousness took over and I was

7:12

probably overly serious. I was very

7:14

diligent and I thought maybe if

7:16

I did everything right, then

7:18

no one could criticize and then I'd just

7:20

fit in. As a college

7:23

student, it was kind of interesting because

7:25

I think agreeableness and

7:27

extroversion took over in me. I

7:30

love college and I

7:32

was very social and out there all the time.

7:34

I also did a two-year mission for my church

7:36

and I think that was the first time I

7:38

felt like I 100% belonged.

7:42

Where did you go? I think I should know this. I

7:45

went to upstate New York to Duanesburg

7:47

where Steven Dubner is

7:49

from. I

7:52

also feel like when people say they go on a

7:54

mission... It's some exotic

7:56

location. You think of Korea, you

7:59

think of like... like, Duwainsburg.

8:03

But people live there too. Yes,

8:05

you do not pick where you go. They just

8:07

assign you. And I, in retrospect, was thrilled with

8:09

the assignment. But I think that

8:11

that was like a place where this extraversion,

8:13

agreeableness, I was kind of at my peak.

8:16

And coming home from that experience, I think I

8:18

was lost for a little while. I

8:20

was very outwardly open and

8:22

happy and extroverted. But inwardly, I

8:24

had some layers that I never

8:26

let anybody in on. I don't

8:29

know if it was insecurity or

8:31

self-preservation. This is a dumb example,

8:33

but I think maybe signifies how

8:35

my personality changed. I love football.

8:37

I would go to football games.

8:40

And in my earlier years, if your team would

8:42

score a touchdown, you would celebrate and be super

8:45

happy. There was a period of maybe 10 years

8:47

where I'd be watching a football game, my team

8:49

would score the touchdown, and everyone around

8:51

me is high-fiving and chest bumping. And I would just

8:53

sit there waiting to see if there was a flag.

8:56

Like I couldn't let myself enjoy the

8:58

moment. And then I would relax

9:00

when I saw that we really did score. And then

9:03

it was just kind of like steady

9:06

state, even rather than like

9:08

engaged. Interesting. This is where

9:10

I think I have changed most recently, is

9:13

that my whole life has sort of opened up.

9:15

Like I'm really happy again. I laugh more for

9:17

you. I'm much more comfortable with myself and who

9:19

I am. And maybe the peaks

9:21

and valleys and spikes are only observable to

9:24

me, but I feel like they've

9:26

changed pretty substantially.

9:28

And maybe that's not just

9:31

personality, but my ability

9:33

to deal with self in the world. But

9:35

I think I've seen openness,

9:37

extraversion, agreeableness, conscientiousness

9:41

increase significantly, and neuroticism probably

9:43

decrease significantly. How old are

9:45

you? I can't remember. I'm

9:47

41. Oh, you said

9:49

that in a kind of like Eeyore way.

9:51

I actually love my life. But sometimes I

9:53

think, wow, if I had

9:56

the knowledge and perspective and Experience

9:59

Now, And can plug that into

10:01

a twenty five year old. I. Would

10:03

be so much better. Oh my gosh, don't

10:05

we all I know. So let me

10:07

ask you this. your forty one

10:09

you have looked back upon your.

10:12

Childhood. As a little boy,

10:14

all the way up through your penis,

10:16

your twenties. And your thirties and

10:19

you see a lot of scenes.

10:21

A lot of that is positive

10:23

is there are nuances but there

10:25

is a maturation if you will

10:27

have some these dimensions of personally

10:29

that you're happy with when you

10:31

look forward to your forties and

10:33

then beyond. Like my decade and then

10:35

you know, Social Security decade and a set of

10:37

Medicare that were you raised that way how can

10:39

they not? Was four blocks. The term in

10:42

some his for like the next

10:44

decade. They. Literally called the old Old.

10:46

Like one old was not enough. They're

10:48

like there's the old And as old

10:50

old Science needs rebranding. That's terrible. I

10:52

know they need a whole marketing department.

10:54

For sex. But when you look

10:57

forward to the future, make do

10:59

you think you're going to change?

11:01

In. The future or do you think

11:03

you've kind of reach to make money

11:06

is like what's your to untutored intuition

11:08

about how stable your personality is now

11:10

compared to the past. I would

11:12

hope to continue improving in increments, but I don't think

11:14

there's gonna be a massive shift in this. Okay,

11:17

well I think that's pretty consistent

11:19

with what is sometimes called the

11:21

end of History illusion. Of sound

11:24

kind of the dire the a spoon

11:26

to say illusion. I feel like I'm

11:28

just tricking myself immediately. But there's good

11:30

news I think. especially given what you said

11:32

about your aspirations. What I think we all

11:35

have. we would all want to continue to

11:37

grow and to learn and to become even

11:39

better people than we are now. but a

11:41

lot of us have a sense and I

11:43

do you know vs me like do you

11:45

think you'll be a different person when you're

11:47

fifty. Nine Or Sixty One.

11:50

I think the intuitive answer that I would

11:52

give us like know I'm pretty. Much me right?

11:54

You know? I could tell you how it's different when I

11:56

was a cheerleader and I was in high school. but

11:58

like now i am Angela. And

12:00

this is called the end of history illusion.

12:02

And you're right, the term illusion or bias is

12:04

a pretty good tip off that what psychologists are

12:06

pointing to is a mistake that

12:09

we're making cognitively. And here, I

12:11

should accredit the coiners of the phrase.

12:14

So that's Jordy Quidback and then Dan

12:16

Gilbert and Tim Wilson. They published this

12:18

article about a decade ago. And what

12:21

they did was they measured the

12:23

personalities using a standard inventory of

12:25

personality and also the values and preferences

12:27

of more than 19,000 adults who

12:31

ranged in age from 18 to 68. And they very

12:33

simply asked them to report how much they

12:39

thought they had changed in the past

12:41

decade. So similar to my like my

12:43

interrogation, but just in the last 10 years

12:45

and or to predict how much they would change

12:48

in the following decade. And essentially

12:50

what they found in this study

12:53

was that young people, middle age

12:55

people, older people, everybody believed that

12:57

they had changed a lot in

13:00

the past. But then when you

13:02

ask them the parallel question about

13:04

the next decade, universally,

13:06

people do not forecast changing very

13:09

much at all like they're like,

13:11

Oh, now I'm me. So

13:13

if at every decade, you're

13:16

like, Oh, I'm done. I have finally

13:18

become who I am. But then when

13:20

you look at the data and there

13:22

is change in every decade, then people

13:24

are being pessimistic in their forecast,

13:26

right? We have the false sense

13:29

that we're done changing. But if

13:31

we could like vault you into the future and show

13:33

you yourself 10 years from now, you

13:35

will have changed more than you think you will.

13:38

Well, I take comfort in knowing that I am

13:41

just like everyone else and diluting. Yeah,

13:46

I wonder if that is comforting. I guess it

13:48

isn't a way. No, it's not that company. It's

13:50

more like, okay, fell into the traffic completely. Let

13:53

me read you this one thing. And I'm curious

13:55

to get your take on it in context of

13:57

what we've just said. So I listened to a

13:59

talk by a Cambridge University psychologist named Brian

14:01

Little, he basically says

14:04

that rank order doesn't

14:06

change. So he said if

14:08

you go back to your sixth grade reunion,

14:10

the rank order of people on these different

14:12

dimensions stays relatively the same and the kid

14:15

who is the class clown, maybe

14:17

he has a more sophisticated sense of humor

14:19

than in sixth grade now that he's 36,

14:21

but he's probably still

14:23

the one cracking the jokes. And so

14:25

his point was, yeah, we all change

14:28

over time, but probably where you

14:30

fit relative to maybe your peers

14:32

or others stays at

14:34

least relatively consistent. Okay,

14:38

love Brian Little, super love Brian

14:40

Little, don't agree.

14:42

I mean, I'd have to debate him on

14:45

this and I could because he's awesome and

14:47

he's fun to debate with, but rank order

14:50

does get to be

14:52

quite stable in about

14:54

your late middle age. What's

14:57

late middle age? Fifties or so, but

14:59

if you did this hypothetical example, like think

15:01

of your sixth grade class and then imagine

15:03

doing this if you had the same 30

15:05

kids like at the end of high school

15:07

and imagine doing it then in your like

15:09

twenties and thirties and forties and fifties. At

15:11

what point would the shuffling with the rank

15:13

ordering like be zero? Like

15:16

it's like, oh, everybody's just standing in the same

15:18

places. It's never that

15:20

people don't shuffle. There's always rank order

15:22

change even in your fifties and sixties

15:24

and beyond. So that's where I

15:26

would disagree with him. But where he has

15:28

a point is that there's less

15:30

shuffling. So if you go from

15:33

sixth grade to 12th grade, you're not gonna everybody

15:35

stand in line from like most cheerful to least

15:37

cheerful in this hypothetical example, there's going to be

15:39

like a reasonable amount of shuffling. And

15:41

then there's like less shuffling and still less shuffling. And

15:43

that's why the end of history illusion is not

15:46

like people are totally wrong. Like you do

15:48

change less as you grow older,

15:50

but you never change not at all.

15:52

There's never pointing in a lifespan

15:55

where you have no shuffling and

15:57

the tendency that's been observed across all. All

16:00

the data that have been collected is

16:02

very awesome. It's

16:04

good news because even though our hips and our

16:06

knees give out, one thing that we can look

16:08

forward to as we get older is it's usually

16:10

called the maturity principle. So just

16:13

like you, we become more dependable as

16:15

we get older. We become

16:17

more emotionally stable. I will say

16:19

that to 20-year-olds because I'm like,

16:21

dude, this roller coaster that you're

16:23

on, I'm not because I'm in my

16:25

50s and you're in your 20s. Yes,

16:28

I will have ups and downs, but holy smokes. They're not the

16:30

ups and downs that I've had in my 20s. And

16:32

thank goodness. Thank goodness. I know.

16:34

I don't even know how we survive

16:37

those all-too-is years. So we get

16:40

more conscientious, more agreeable, more compassionate

16:42

and understanding of other people and their

16:44

complicated lives. And as I said, there's

16:47

like a decrease in neuroticism where you

16:49

could frame it as an increase in

16:51

emotional stability, the same thing. And

16:53

then I think there's a little bit more debate

16:55

about open-mindedness, but in many studies,

16:57

like open-mindedness or openness to experience

17:00

also goes up over much of adulthood.

17:02

So in adulthood at least, you know,

17:04

adolescence is a whole other can

17:06

of worms, but just in adulthood

17:08

from say your 20s onward, there's

17:11

increases in the mean levels of

17:13

positive personality traits. We

17:15

are generally getting better. I

17:18

love that you called adolescence a can of worms.

17:20

I think it's almost sometimes a pit of despair.

17:23

Nothing against those human adolescents, but...

17:26

You said you were very anxious in your... Did I

17:28

get that right? You were like diligent, but in a

17:30

way like driven through fear or

17:32

something? Yeah, I think it was

17:34

a self-protective mechanism. I mean,

17:36

not everybody was Mike Mon as a teenager, but

17:39

I will just say that the things that we

17:41

went through and I don't know how we survive

17:43

our teenagers either. Like, wow, those are hard. And

17:45

in these personality studies where you track, you

17:47

know, change, like mean level change, rank order

17:49

change, but you're looking at teenagers, there

17:52

is... It's

17:54

called the disruption hypothesis. Basically, instead

17:56

of everybody getting better and happier

17:59

and more... dependable and more

18:01

conscientious in adolescence in many studies, there's

18:03

actually a dip. So like you're in

18:05

a way going backwards in maturity, so

18:08

to speak, it's hard. And so when

18:10

I teach the maturity principle, I'm usually

18:12

looking out at a sea of faces

18:14

who are already in their 20s. And

18:17

then I get to just emphasize the positive because they

18:20

are survived. Yeah, they're getting to

18:22

the good part. Well, look, Angela,

18:24

and I would love to hear your thoughts

18:26

on how fixed personalities are. Do

18:28

you feel like your personality has shifted over time?

18:31

And have you ever intentionally tried to change

18:33

it? So record a voice memo in

18:35

a quiet place with your mouth close to the phone and

18:38

email it to nsql at freakonomics.com and maybe

18:40

we'll play it on a future episode of

18:42

the show. Also, if

18:44

you want to learn more

18:46

about your own personality, head

18:48

to freakonomics.com/big five. And

18:51

you can take the big five inventory and

18:53

you'll get an immediate personality profile and

18:55

your results will be completely anonymous. Still

19:00

to come on No Stupid Questions, is

19:03

it possible to change your personality intentionally?

19:06

To increase agreeableness, she

19:08

wanted to start sending out supportive texts, thinking

19:11

more positively about people who frustrated her.

19:14

And this is my favorite. She says,

19:16

quote, regrettably hugging. No

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22:27

that the night and into

22:29

a conversation about personality change.

22:34

Is. What I wanna go to This

22:36

other thing that just talked about which

22:38

is not just how fix personality is,

22:41

but can you change right? And I'm

22:43

curious to get your take on this

22:45

principle that Richard Wiseman, a psychology professor

22:47

at University of Hartford sheer calls it

22:49

the as if principal like behave as

22:52

if you are the person that you

22:54

want to be right and so I

22:56

want to give you an example. Side

22:58

loves in a book I just read

23:00

by Martin Short Sir Martin Short Movie

23:03

Star to me to make. Sure,

23:05

it's oh good. like. He hangs out

23:07

with Steve Martin super. Funny

23:09

in his aunt. Medians in cars specific

23:11

go on. Sorry I got the strike

23:14

Meetings is targeting are getting classy by

23:16

the Us is something during sides of

23:18

so I got that bit Martin Sure

23:21

it is Larry Yes and yes often

23:23

for Steve Martin. So he wrote a

23:25

book called i must say my Life

23:28

as a humble comedy Legend and he

23:30

actually starts the books with a really

23:32

interesting. Anecdote. Talking.

23:35

About he and his wife Nancy

23:37

they were out to dinner and

23:39

this is May nineteen seventy seventies.

23:41

Early in his career still, he's

23:43

working at Second City in Toronto

23:45

which is a comedy group and

23:47

is developing a character named At.

23:50

This. is the character at the time didn't

23:52

i ever last name of the character that

23:54

when south know famously as at grimly and

23:56

so he and his wife for out to

23:58

eat they're having a argument, not a

24:01

terrible argument, but there's some serious tension.

24:03

And his wife says to him, I

24:05

don't want to talk to you anymore. I want to talk

24:08

to Ed. And then he said

24:10

that she looked past him. And she

24:12

said, Ed, what's Marty's problem? And

24:15

Martin Short transforms himself into this

24:17

alternate person and conversed with her

24:19

as Ed. And then

24:21

he said, Ed, whose sweetness has

24:23

a disarming effect on Nancy, when

24:26

trouble arises, she calls on Ed

24:28

to moderate. And when he appears,

24:30

all things calm down. Now,

24:33

I'm not saying we should all play a

24:35

totally separate character. But I wonder

24:37

if in the state of trying to

24:39

change our personality, there seems to be

24:41

some real value in acting as if

24:44

we're, quote unquote, playing a part in

24:46

order to give yourself permission to change

24:48

and adapt your personality. So I think

24:51

you're on to something and definitely that Martin

24:53

Short is on to something. I used to

24:55

talk about this a little bit with

24:57

Tim Beck, arguably the founder of modern

24:59

psychotherapy, which is often called cognitive therapy

25:01

or cognitive behavioral therapy. And we

25:03

talked about multiple personalities, because I

25:05

can be a completely

25:08

different person with my students.

25:10

I really have the professor hat on. I'm

25:13

patient, kind, you know, I'm curious

25:15

about what's going on with them. Like

25:17

that's Professor Angela, who I try to be. But

25:20

then when I'm with my husband,

25:22

you know, it's a different Angela.

25:24

So when I'm on a Zoom

25:26

call with students, and I get

25:29

off the Zoom call, the tone of

25:32

my voice even changes. I'm like, Okay,

25:34

so that is due in a week.

25:36

All right. Are we good? Okay, great

25:38

question, Francisco. And then click, leave

25:40

call. And it's like, Hi, levy,

25:43

the register changes. It's

25:45

very different. But here's what Tim Beck

25:47

said, and I really agree. He

25:49

thought as a psychologist and a therapist

25:52

that all of us have multiple

25:54

personalities in a healthy way. Because as he

25:56

put it to me, he's like, if you

25:58

don't have multiple personalities if you're

26:00

not able to be you know a

26:02

professor with your students and a spouse

26:04

with your Husband and a mom with

26:06

your kids and a neighbor with your

26:08

neighbors like these are very different Personality

26:11

modes he called them like if you

26:13

can't switch modes then you

26:15

have a problem And so

26:18

I think that part of

26:20

personality change is like who we become

26:22

in our 40s as opposed to our

26:24

30s and this kind of Gradual change

26:27

so personalities on the whole do change

26:30

But they tend not to be like the

26:32

difference between Martin and Ed it's kind of

26:34

like a slow Change, but

26:36

it is true that in a millisecond

26:38

We can switch our personalities if we

26:40

switch modes And I think what

26:42

I want to say to Joshua or to anybody who's

26:45

like you know When I think of all the people

26:47

that I am there are people that

26:49

I like better Like there's an

26:51

Angela Mike that I don't think you've ever seen

26:53

and very few people have

26:56

it's a really hot

26:58

tempered Impatient I mean

27:01

I have like thrown Objects

27:03

in my house slam doors like the door

27:05

is gonna fall off the hinge Thworn

27:08

like a sailor, but really

27:10

a very mean sailor like

27:13

there's an angry Angela that I never

27:15

show you That I never show my

27:17

students that unfortunately I have

27:19

shown Jason, and I've even shown my

27:22

daughters I don't like that

27:24

Angela so part of personality change is

27:26

saying you know there are people in

27:28

me I like better maybe

27:30

Martin's wife and Martin himself would say

27:32

like Ed's a Great person

27:35

and like the question then is how

27:37

do I let Ed or

27:39

cheerful professor Angela or whatever it is?

27:41

Come out to play more and I think

27:43

a lot of that is the secret to personality

27:45

change is to put yourself in Situations

27:48

or to bring out the mode that

27:51

you like best Unfortunately,

27:53

I also have a

27:56

version of Mike that I don't like that. I

27:58

don't see very often that very few

28:01

people thankfully have seen. What

28:03

do you not like about this

28:05

mic I never see? I think

28:07

it's the same type you just

28:09

described, right? For me, I would

28:11

say that is more when I

28:13

am really stressed and have no

28:15

time. And so it's

28:17

a time pressure and a stressful situation.

28:20

That's the mic I like the

28:22

least because normally I try in every

28:24

way to bring people with me and whatever

28:26

and occasionally that's the slam the

28:28

door, everybody's screwing this up, get out of my way,

28:31

I'm going to make it happen and I'm going to

28:33

do it right. Well that's different

28:35

from my worst, Angela, because I have

28:37

diagnosed myself as getting into these tornadoes

28:40

of anger only when I feel it's

28:42

not the stress. I have

28:44

to feel like people don't appreciate me.

28:46

So if I feel like I

28:49

have heroically done the noble selfless

28:52

thing and that I

28:54

am overlooked and unappreciated,

28:56

that's what activates super

28:58

angry Angela. So this

29:00

little bit of insight by the way, because I think we all

29:02

have a part of ourselves, a mode

29:04

that we think is dangerous and

29:07

bad. For me, it took me years,

29:09

but I've tried to put myself in

29:11

situations where that doesn't happen.

29:13

I mean, part of it is if I see

29:15

that I'm starting to martyr myself and

29:18

starting to say, well there you go, I sacrificed

29:20

this and that and the other, I'm like, uh

29:22

oh, I am setting myself up for angry Angela

29:24

to come out. And it would honestly be better

29:27

for everyone if I were a little more selfish

29:29

now so as to prevent Chernobyl

29:32

later. I also

29:34

love the alliteration, angry Angela. Let

29:36

me share this. I thought it was interesting.

29:38

This is not from a psychologist. This is

29:40

a journalist who is a staff writer at

29:42

the Atlantic. Her name is Olga Hazan and

29:45

she is the author of Weird, the Power of

29:48

Being an Outsider and Insider World. But

29:50

she wrote several articles about trying to change

29:52

her own personality. She just did an experiment

29:54

with an N of 1. But

29:57

she wrote this article, I gave myself three

29:59

months. to change my personality, the

30:02

results were mixed." Which I think, what

30:04

an honest and true statement for anyone trying

30:06

to change their personality. So

30:08

to become more extroverted, she

30:10

made goals to meet new people. To decrease

30:13

neuroticism, she said, I'm going to

30:15

meditate often and make gratitude lists.

30:17

To increase agreeableness, she

30:20

wanted to start sending out supportive texts, supportive

30:23

cards, thinking more positively about people who

30:25

frustrated her. And this is my favorite,

30:27

she says, regrettably, hugging.

30:31

She hugged people. Oh, I love this

30:33

permudgeon. To increase

30:35

extroversion, she took an improv class to help

30:38

reduce social anxiety. And then this is my

30:40

favorite quote, to cut down on how pissed

30:42

off I am in general. And because I'm

30:44

an overachiever, I also signed up for an

30:47

anger management class. So

30:49

she does all these things to try to

30:51

change her personality. And then what happens? Again,

30:53

in the end, she said the results were

30:55

mixed. She quotes a late psychologist, Carl

30:57

Rogers, who just said, when I accept myself just

30:59

as I am, then I can change. And

31:02

so she said, I'm going to try all these things. I

31:04

kind of am who I am, but I

31:07

was able to change slightly when she took

31:09

a personality test. She had increased

31:11

an extroversion going from 23rd percentile to

31:14

33rd. Her neuroticism had gone

31:16

from extremely high to very high, but

31:19

directionally, none of it changed that much. It's

31:22

not that little change, honestly. If you go from

31:24

23rd percent to 33rd percent, I

31:27

mean, just think about that. Like if you were taking some standardized

31:29

test, you're like, well, and then I did some prep and

31:31

I went from the 23rd percentile to 33rd percentile. I

31:34

think you would be like, that was

31:36

pretty good. That's like, let's see, in

31:38

technical terms, huge. What's interesting is

31:40

that this end-of-one experiment has been done. So there

31:42

have been researchers who essentially help people make plans.

31:45

They're like, okay, I want to be more extroverted.

31:47

Okay, what do extroverted people do? It is a

31:49

little as if, actually. It's like, if I acted

31:51

as if I were extroverted, what would it be?

31:54

And then you literally just make plans.

31:56

You're like, okay, if I'm in class, then I will

31:58

raise my hand. If I see... a

32:00

friend, then I will go over and hug them.

32:02

Like, you know, you make all these if-then plans.

32:05

And the research shows that it can lead to

32:07

some short-term changes in personality. Honestly, I think in

32:09

the research studies, not as big as 23rd percentile

32:12

to 33rd percentile on

32:14

average, but I would say that there's some evidence

32:17

that you can make plans

32:19

to act as if you

32:22

had a different personality. You can, you know,

32:24

in a way bring out that personality mode.

32:27

But also, you know, it's interesting that she quoted Carl

32:29

Rogers, because Carl Rogers was one

32:31

of the great humanist psychologists. Carl

32:33

Rogers is no longer alive, but he

32:36

preceded Tim Beck, and he had

32:38

this approach to therapy that

32:40

was like a lot of other humanist psychologists

32:42

based on the idea of unconditional positive regard.

32:44

That what we need to do, all of

32:46

us, those of us who are really struggling

32:48

and then those of us who are like

32:51

actually in a pretty good place in life,

32:53

that all of us need to have this

32:56

rock-solid foundation of unconditional positive

32:58

regard to feel like you're

33:00

okay, that you're a good

33:02

person, that you're worthwhile. It's

33:05

not often talked about these days, but I actually

33:07

think Carl Rogers was right, and I don't even

33:09

see this as a contradiction. I think we can

33:11

say like, you know what? I would like to

33:14

be a little more cheerful. You know what? I

33:16

would like to not bring out angry Angela as much.

33:19

Like I want to change. And

33:21

also at the same time, without

33:23

contradiction to say, I'm okay. Like

33:25

I am in an unconditional way

33:27

a human being who has a

33:29

certain amount of worth and

33:31

dignity, and I both

33:33

want to change and also feel

33:36

accepting of myself. So I don't

33:38

know if that sounds like a contradiction to you, but I

33:41

think the healthiest people are

33:43

exactly that. They feel okay with

33:45

themselves in an unconditional way, and

33:48

they also are looking forward and

33:50

hoping to change for the better. I

33:53

say all the time to friends, whatever. I

33:55

think one of the healthiest things in life

33:57

is learning to hold Seemingly kind of

33:59

a. Introductory things at the same time

34:02

and somebody same as said something

34:04

like that but I can't remember

34:06

a like George Orwell. I'm sure

34:08

someone same as said it not

34:10

only. Are. Of here but way better.

34:12

but that's and I think I've come with myself

34:14

to in terms of me tell you how my

34:16

personality change by yes hey I accept myself for

34:18

who I am and I want to become better

34:20

and both of those. There. At

34:23

contrast in some sense that conflict but

34:25

like also true. Absolutely. I

34:27

don't know if we've answered-was

34:29

question think. You know any kind

34:32

of complete ways but it will say

34:34

this make the reason why we've been

34:36

talking about personality so much of lead

34:38

is that it is something we all

34:40

ask ourselves. You know who am I

34:42

guess and who have I been and

34:44

who will I be And I think

34:46

that's the justification for devoting not only

34:48

this conversation. To Josh was question

34:50

about can I change know how malleable

34:52

personality Answer: Like more than you think.

34:54

It's but also for having

34:57

five more conversations, each dedicated

34:59

to one of the. Letters

35:01

and Ocean and I really look

35:03

forward to that because when I.

35:05

Look at my psychological sell see as

35:07

it were like when I look at

35:10

my own personality Eats with any kind

35:12

of honesty is there's so much They

35:14

are where I could understand myself better

35:16

but also in important ways to improve.

35:19

The. And I think as we go into

35:21

these next summer sessions obviously we've invited

35:23

you have to take the Big Five

35:25

inventory of for economic circumcised Big Five

35:27

but insulin I will also share. Some.

35:30

Of that anonymised data and.

35:32

Share. With you our own psychological sell

35:34

fees and look here's what I would

35:36

say to Joshua. in the process of

35:38

all this I'm gonna take the challenge

35:41

myself to say on each of these

35:43

ocean principles what's one thing that I

35:45

can do to maybe improve in each

35:47

regard. Me to sit in as we

35:49

challenge ourselves to. Not only stare

35:51

at ourselves in the mirror so

35:53

to speak, but also if we

35:55

want to to mold ourselves a

35:57

little bit. I wasn't too. So

36:00

yes, I'm in. Okay, I am up

36:02

for that. Awesome. Well, we hope you'll

36:04

join us over the next five episodes

36:06

as we explore the different aspects of

36:09

personality. Mike, I cannot wait. And

36:12

now here's a fact check of today's

36:14

conversation. In the first

36:16

half of the show, Angela says that the

36:19

bold five personality traits apply across

36:21

the lifespan and across cultures.

36:23

However, it's interesting to note

36:25

that recent research from leading

36:27

personality psychologists has found that

36:29

the quote, little six better

36:31

represents the prominent dimensions of

36:34

child temperament. These

36:36

factors consist of the original

36:38

big five personality traits plus

36:40

activity, which includes elements

36:42

like physical energy and motor activity.

36:45

In addition, certain academics have

36:48

proposed that the big five may

36:50

not necessarily apply to certain isolated

36:52

indigenous people. For

36:54

example, researchers studying the Tamane, a

36:57

hunter-gatherer community in the Bolivian lowlands,

37:00

found that members of the tribe

37:02

rated themselves as both reserved and

37:04

talkative, suggesting that the

37:06

trait of extroversion may not pertain to

37:08

them in the way that it's typically

37:11

conceived. Later, Mike and

37:13

Angela nearly recall the name of

37:15

Jerry Seinfeld's popular talk show, which

37:18

features the comedian chatting with guests over

37:20

a cup of coffee and driving around

37:22

in a classic car. The

37:24

show is aptly named Comedians in

37:26

Cars Getting Coffee. Martin

37:29

Short appears in Season 11, Episode

37:31

8, in which he

37:33

and Seinfeld drive around Los

37:35

Angeles in a 1982 Mercedes

37:37

station wagon. Finally,

37:39

Mike and Angela have difficulty remembering

37:41

the origin of a famous quote

37:44

about the importance of being able

37:46

to hold seemingly contradictory ideas at

37:48

the same time. They

37:50

were likely thinking of a moment from Aksat

37:52

Fitzgerald's 1936 essay, The

37:55

Crack-Up. Fitzgerald wrote,

37:57

quote, the test of a

37:59

first-rate intelligence is the ability

38:01

to hold two opposed ideas in the

38:03

mind at the same time, and

38:05

still retain the ability to function. One

38:08

should, for example, be able to see

38:10

that things are hopeless, and

38:13

yet be determined to make them otherwise.

38:15

That's it for the Fact Check.

38:18

Before we wrap today's show, let's hear

38:20

some thoughts about last week's episode on

38:22

nostalgia. Hello Angela

38:25

and Mike, this is Greg Ward

38:27

in Austin, Texas. I

38:29

really enjoyed episode 190

38:31

on the point of nostalgia. One

38:34

of my favorite experiences is when

38:36

nostalgia is sparked suddenly by a

38:38

smell or environment. For instance, the

38:40

feeling of St. Augustine grass on

38:42

my bare feet, or

38:44

the smell of an automobile mechanic shop,

38:46

which instantly takes me back to my

38:48

childhood visiting my grandpa. He was the

38:51

town mechanic in a small Texas town. Even

38:54

a sunny but crisp cool day can for

38:56

a moment take me back to recess in

38:58

middle school. These feelings

39:00

are brief and spontaneous, but

39:03

guaranteed to bring a smile on my face. Hey

39:06

Mike and Angela, thank you for recording my

39:09

favorite episode of No Stupid Questions to date

39:11

on nostalgia. I'm someone who has followed nostalgia

39:13

throughout my life. Growing up, I was enthralled

39:15

by the wonder of Disney movies and my

39:17

family's trips to Disneyland, and that led me

39:19

to a career working for the Walt Disney

39:22

Company for 10 years. During that time I

39:24

also got my degree in sociology, where I

39:26

sought to understand the healthiest and most fulfilling

39:28

way to apply nostalgia into my life. Nostalgia

39:30

has caused many of my peers too long

39:32

for the past, but in my experience, nostalgia

39:34

works best as a present moment experience where

39:37

you just kind of stop and internalize

39:39

that lovely feeling right there and appreciate

39:41

this amazing human ability we have to

39:43

feel something so wonderful for a second

39:45

time. Then you go back out

39:47

there, you make wonderful new memories that years down

39:49

the line will be your new nostalgic moment. A

39:52

philosophy is notice, appreciate, smile, and move forward.

39:55

Eventually I moved on from Disney to a

39:57

new career in social research. But I'm happy

39:59

to say I still get a blast of

40:01

present moment nostalgia anytime I hear When You

40:04

Wish Upon A Star. Hi,

40:06

this is Steve from Seattle. Nostalgia

40:09

has affected my life very much

40:11

because I hosted a Twitter chat about

40:13

nostalgia for a decade. The

40:16

chat was originally focused on

40:18

retro tech, things like floppy

40:21

disks and Tamagotchis and music

40:23

players with physical media like

40:25

the Sony Walkman and Discmen.

40:28

It wasn't long until we were

40:30

talking about holiday memories, road trips

40:32

and foods that brought us back

40:35

to simpler days. I

40:37

ultimately ended the weekly chat after 11

40:40

years, not because

40:42

nostalgia has become any less

40:44

interesting, but because our platform,

40:47

Twitter, now X, was

40:49

imploding. So now

40:51

we're nostalgic about Twitter. That

40:55

was, respectively, Greg Ward, Alec

40:57

Hester and Steve Case. Thanks

41:00

to them and to everyone who shared their stories with

41:02

us. And remember, we'd

41:04

love to hear your thoughts on how

41:06

fixed personality is. How has

41:08

your personality changed over time? Have

41:11

you ever paid to change it? Send

41:13

a voice memo to nsquatfreeconomics.com and

41:15

you might hear your voice on

41:17

the show. Coming

41:23

up next week on No Stupid Questions,

41:25

the first episode in Mike and

41:27

Angela's series on the Big Five

41:29

personality traits. Should you be

41:32

more open to stepping out of your comfort zone?

41:34

I have never regretted BX Benedict. Oh

41:37

really? I have always regretted

41:39

BX Benedict. That's next

41:42

week on No Stupid Questions. No

41:44

Stupid Questions is part of the

41:47

Freakonomics Radio network, which also includes

41:49

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42:04

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help from Jasmine Springer. Our

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42:11

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42:30

Thanks for listening. I

42:36

have friends who color-code their books. Which

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looks very cool. It is, but I

42:40

have one friend who his wife

42:43

color-coded all the books, and his thought was,

42:46

it's really hard to find any of my books. The

42:53

Preeconomics Radio Network, the hidden

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