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0:59

card Somebody

1:02

help me. I'm

1:06

Angela Duckworth. I'm Mike Monn.

1:10

And you're listening to No Stupid Questions. Today

1:13

on the show, what happens when

1:16

someone is completely isolated from other

1:18

people? There is no

1:20

end and no beginning. There is

1:22

only one's mind, which can begin

1:24

to play tricks. Angela,

1:36

today we have a very fascinating question

1:39

that I think is going to lead

1:41

to a fun debate between us. Okay.

1:44

Hello, Mike and Angela. My name

1:46

is Barry Douglas. I am Rebecca

1:48

Lee Douglas' father. Oh my

1:50

goodness. Our Rebecca Lee Douglas. Our

1:53

Rebecca's dad wrote in. Okay. I'm on

1:55

his side, whatever it is. He said,

1:58

in a recent episode of the show... about

2:00

the psychology of groups, Angela said,

2:03

quote, nobody's all that interested in

2:05

how you act, think or feel

2:07

on a desert island, unquote. I

2:09

did say that. And then he

2:11

says, I would contest that the

2:13

blockbuster movie Castaway suggests differently. I

2:16

find the ways in which Tom Hanks

2:18

character changes psychologically throughout the movie to

2:20

be fascinating and I would love to

2:22

hear more about how complete isolation from

2:25

society can affect a person's

2:27

brain and behavior. Sincerely, Barry.

2:30

Here's the debate I wanna have with you. Which

2:33

one of us would last longer on

2:36

a deserted island? Oh,

2:39

that is such a good question. Okay, Mike

2:41

Mon on a desert island, Angela

2:44

Duckworth on a desert island. I'm

2:46

gonna go with you out living me. And

2:49

here's why. I think that if there's one

2:52

thing that I have figured out that enables

2:54

me to survive, it's asking for

2:56

help. And

2:59

there'd be nobody to ask on a desert island. I

3:01

would be trying to charm hermit crabs

3:04

into figuring out how to build

3:06

a fire and it wouldn't work. That's

3:09

such a fascinating insight that your

3:11

secret is you ask for help.

3:14

Okay, what about you? Who would you pick?

3:16

Because I do think it reveals how

3:18

you get by in life. First of all, I actually think

3:20

we would both have a decent

3:22

chance because I think that you

3:25

have enormous grit and I'm not

3:27

just trying to go off your book. Thank you.

3:29

But I have another question which I was thinking

3:32

about and thinking through people in

3:34

deserted islands and it's what would take

3:36

us down first. Dehydration, lack of fresh

3:38

water. But I think that you can

3:40

figure that stuff out with rain and

3:43

set up a catch basin.

3:46

But I think I would just go

3:48

crazy from rodents and bugs and stuff

3:50

like that. I was thinking about the

3:52

movie Cast Away and I thought you were

3:54

gonna say I would go crazy from lack

3:57

of social contact. Oh wait, first of

3:59

all, Have you seen this Tom Hanks movie? You've

4:01

seen Castaway, yeah? Yes, I loved it.

4:03

There's this screenwriter, Bill Broyles, who

4:06

wrote Castaway. His first screenplay was

4:08

Apollo 13. Oh, amazing.

4:11

About being lost in space. He

4:14

then did Planet of the Apes, and then he

4:16

goes on to do Castaway. But what's interesting is

4:18

he comes up with a lot of the ideas

4:20

for Castaway when he goes to

4:22

what is deemed a survival camp on

4:25

an island near Mexico's Sea of

4:27

Cortez. And he stayed out

4:29

there for several days. And this is coming

4:32

from a journalist, Sarah Hippola, in the Austin

4:34

Chronicle in 2000, who wrote

4:36

an article about this, Lost at Sea

4:38

and Back Again. So Broyles goes to

4:40

survival camp, and he spears stingrays. He

4:43

learns how to open coconuts and drain

4:45

their juices. He made his own lean-to

4:47

from bamboo and palm leaves. He

4:49

spends a day and a half trying

4:52

to make fire. And finally, he's like,

4:54

somebody help me. I

4:56

can't eat any more raw fish. But

4:58

this is what I thought was really interesting.

5:00

He said, as he's going through all of

5:02

this, he realized this wasn't just a physical

5:05

challenge. It would be an emotional and spiritual

5:07

one as well. And that's where one

5:09

of the big insights or moments

5:12

that becomes huge in Castaway comes to

5:14

this guy. Broyles says one

5:17

day he saw a volleyball lying

5:19

on a beach and he started talking

5:21

to it. And he called

5:23

it Wilson after the name

5:26

of the brand. Oh, wait, this actually

5:28

happened to him before he like wrote

5:30

it into the script? Yes, this

5:32

is the genesis of the idea.

5:35

So he's alone, he's at survival

5:37

camp, he sees a volleyball on

5:40

the beach, he starts calling it Wilson,

5:43

and that's what becomes, and he says,

5:45

my favorite character in the movie, which

5:47

is rude, because I think there's basically

5:49

two characters in the movie, Wilson and

5:51

Tom Hanks. I mean, there are others,

5:54

and that's where it becomes this

5:56

really interesting pairing with a non-human

5:59

element. Well, this idea

6:01

that we might anthropomorphize

6:03

inanimate objects in our

6:05

desperate attempt to

6:08

recreate what is a basic human

6:11

need, I think it's

6:13

so interesting. And I remember when I

6:15

watched that movie, I mean, I wasn't

6:17

a trained psychologist at that point, but

6:19

I thought that was the message, right?

6:21

In addition to water and

6:24

food and shelter, it's

6:27

a basic, it's like a fundamental drive

6:30

that we have to connect with other

6:33

people so much so that we would

6:36

make a person out of a volleyball in

6:38

order to like, you know, get our

6:40

fix. Absolutely. And I think that it's

6:42

interesting. I was just reading a book

6:44

called This Tender Land about

6:47

Native American schools. And

6:50

there's one child in it who is

6:52

constantly sent to solitary

6:54

confinement, this room. And

6:57

there is a rat there in the

6:59

room that becomes like his buddy. And

7:01

I think it's the same idea that

7:04

we need this psychological connection

7:06

to something. So here's where

7:08

I think I'd love to go with Barry's

7:10

question is I think there are two types

7:12

of isolation that I've been

7:15

thinking about. One is this involuntary

7:17

isolation. So think about that solitary

7:19

confinement, solitary confinement, you get lost

7:21

in a shipwreck crash

7:23

and are cast away like Tom

7:25

Hanks. Then there's voluntary isolation. And

7:28

I think we can look at both of those

7:30

because I think it provides a different structure to

7:32

think through what are those do to you on

7:35

a very simple level. I

7:37

will say this on nights when I have

7:39

been invited to do lots of things or

7:41

have different events I can go to and

7:43

I choose to do something

7:45

alone that is peaceful.

7:48

And I enjoy that. But

7:50

on nights when I have nothing

7:52

to do, I'm like, wait, does nobody

7:54

care? Which is again, a very, very

7:57

small microcosm of what we're talking about. But I think

7:59

points to this. difference between involuntary and

8:01

voluntary solitude. So let's start with

8:03

involuntary because we're talking about Castaway

8:06

and Tom Hanks. What does

8:08

that do to a person? Well,

8:10

never been in solitary confinement. But

8:13

I was like, when have I been in the

8:15

closest thing there is to solitary

8:18

confinement in my own life? So

8:20

let me start with that. I

8:22

will just say this is nothing like

8:24

actual solitary confinement. Like when you're an

8:26

actual solitary confinement, your cell is

8:28

often the size of a king size bed, like

8:31

the entire thing. And that includes everything

8:33

because of course you do not have a king size bed.

8:35

You have like a tiny little cot and

8:38

then there's a toilet and there might be a

8:40

sink. I mean, everything is in this

8:42

tiny little cell oftentimes without

8:45

any daylight. So

8:47

this is nothing like that. Slash,

8:49

it was really hard for me. So a

8:52

few years ago, I'm in Miami

8:55

with my family. I'm sure I've told you

8:57

some version of this, but remember

9:00

when my mom almost drowned? Yes, yes.

9:02

OK. And I've told Stephen about

9:05

this too, but basically long story

9:07

short, it's Christmas Eve as

9:09

a big indulgence, as a kind of like,

9:11

what the heck, you only live once. We

9:14

got a snorkeling boat to take

9:17

our family out off

9:19

the coast of the Florida Keys or

9:21

something. And he drops

9:23

anchor. And Jason and Amanda

9:25

Lucy, they jump in pretty soon. I

9:27

can't see them. They've swum off. And

9:30

then it's my mom's turn. She

9:33

was 86 going on 87. And

9:37

I was assured by this

9:39

confident captain that it was

9:41

entirely safe. So

9:43

she jumps in. And then I

9:45

go in last. And holy

9:47

smokes. I mean,

9:50

every curse word that I know went through my

9:52

head when I hit the water because the

9:54

current was so strong that day. I

9:56

mean, it really pulled us. And

9:59

my mom was like, I'm sorry. mom

10:01

did nearly drown. And then as the

10:03

story progresses, we're like out of the

10:06

hospital and you know, I'm sort

10:08

of nursing my mom in this hotel

10:10

room. And then I test

10:14

positive for COVID. And I

10:18

quickly make a series of phone calls to

10:20

physicians in my family and they're like, get

10:23

into the bathroom, put on an N95 ask,

10:25

put a towel under the door. And

10:27

by the way, you can no longer

10:29

nurse your mother. So

10:31

we managed to get my mom back to

10:34

Philadelphia. And now I'm in Miami with a

10:36

10 day quarantine.

10:39

And I neither could afford to nor

10:41

wanted to spend 10 days in this

10:44

hotel. So I basically decamped to

10:46

a friend's house in Miami.

10:49

His name is Warren. And

10:52

Warren is really wealthy. So this

10:54

was not solitary confinement. You

10:57

know, it's a gorgeous house. And

10:59

I have to say, Mike, that despite the

11:01

fact that I had every physical

11:04

convenience and even like luxuries,

11:07

it was like the longest 10 days. And I

11:09

know this is not a sympathetic story

11:12

because I was quarantining in a really

11:15

rich friend's house. But it

11:17

was really lonely. And I

11:19

did feel like by the end, I

11:22

mean, I wasn't talking to the coffee

11:24

maker and like, you know, making friends

11:26

out of inanimate objects. But I

11:28

was like, Oh, there is something we need

11:30

other than food and drink and shelter. And

11:34

basically, it's other people. But

11:36

this is where I think the whole

11:38

idea of involuntary versus voluntary is pretty

11:40

interesting. Because I imagine there have been different

11:43

points in your life, where

11:45

you would gladly take 10 days

11:47

alone in Miami, that's full of

11:49

no interruptions. But the fact

11:51

that it was involuntary, in a sense, that

11:53

you were forced there because of COVID, that

11:56

changes your psychology. And nothing

11:59

else. changed except for

12:01

your mindset of voluntary versus

12:03

involuntary. That's right. There's only one

12:05

researcher that I know who kind

12:08

of specializes in the psychology

12:10

of solitary confinement. His

12:12

name is Craig Haney. He's a professor of psychology

12:14

at UC Santa Cruz. Do you want

12:17

me to tell you some of the things he's found about solitary

12:19

confinement? Yeah. Okay, well,

12:21

one of the things that Craig Haney points

12:23

out is that it's actually much more common

12:26

than you would think. Apparently, our

12:28

country has one of the highest

12:30

rates of solitary confinement compared to

12:33

other countries around the world. I mean,

12:36

the title of Craig Haney's report is

12:39

solitary confinement is not solitude,

12:41

the worst case scenario of

12:43

being alone in prison. And

12:46

to your point, he emphasizes that it's

12:48

not voluntary. And I think he would

12:50

agree that that's probably the worst thing

12:52

about it, like involuntarily being separated from

12:55

all social contact, which kind of reminds

12:57

me of like, you know, things that

12:59

people had done in the old days,

13:02

like excommunicate somebody or to like shun

13:04

them and push them out of society

13:07

or exile them. I guess that still

13:09

happens. So that's one

13:11

dimension. But in solitary confinement, you're

13:13

also deprived of sensory stimulation, like

13:15

hearing sounds of things that are

13:18

happening, because it's oftentimes so isolated

13:20

and so separate from the rest of

13:22

the prison community that you don't hear

13:24

anything. You also don't see anything other

13:26

than the four walls of your cell

13:29

that you've memorized at that

13:31

point. And there's also this interesting

13:33

dimension where you're physically

13:36

separated by touch. And

13:38

you know how we were recently talking about the

13:40

psychology of touch, like hugging and side

13:43

hugging and oh, I do want

13:45

to tell you that I think

13:47

I successfully completed our eight day

13:49

hugging challenge. And I tweeted it

13:52

eight hugs a day for eight days. And somebody

13:54

was like, why don't you do like one

13:56

hug on the first day, two hugs on the second day,

13:58

three hugs. And I was thinking right I just love, oh

14:00

my gosh, that's so much smarter. It's

14:03

a lot. Did you hug people for

14:05

eight days? I tried. Some

14:08

days I got more, some days less.

14:11

But you hugged more. I did hug more, yes, and

14:13

I was more aware of it. But

14:15

to your point, we have this need

14:17

for human physical contact. In fact, as

14:19

you're talking about solitary, I think the

14:22

most famous prisoner to have ever gone

14:24

through solitary confinement is Nelson Mandela. And

14:27

in fact, the United Nations has

14:29

what they call the Mandela rules,

14:32

which restricts the use of solitary

14:34

confinement. And it even includes

14:36

this quote from Nelson Mandela saying

14:38

that solitary confinement was quote, the

14:41

most forbidding aspect of prison life.

14:43

There was no end and no

14:45

beginning. There is only one's mind,

14:48

which can begin to play tricks. I mean,

14:50

what's remarkable about that is that, you know, I'm no

14:52

student of history, but because I am

14:54

a big fan of Mandela, I remember

14:56

reading that, you know, not only

14:59

was he in and out of solitary confinement,

15:01

but for long periods of time and complete solitary

15:03

confinement, he also had to do like a tremendous

15:05

amount of hard physical labor and

15:07

just the conditions under which he was kept. I

15:09

mean, the fact that he would rank the

15:12

solitary isolation at the top of

15:15

the adversities, given that period, which was like what,

15:17

27 years, I think. Yeah.

15:20

But when Mandela says your mind

15:22

starts playing tricks, so there has

15:24

been research on sensory deprivation. So

15:26

this is not something that the Tom Hanks character had to

15:29

deal with, because when you're on a desert island, you get

15:31

lots of sensory stimulation, right? You get like, you know, the

15:33

sounds of the bugs and the birds and the water

15:36

and so forth, but in solitary confinement,

15:38

you know, you don't hear a lot, you

15:40

don't see a lot, you don't smell a

15:42

lot, and you're not touching a lot. And

15:44

there have been these short-term laboratory

15:46

studies where you put people in a

15:49

floating tank with like, you know, their

15:51

ears stuffed. And one of the findings

15:53

is that the brain starts

15:55

to hallucinate. So when Mandela

15:57

says, you know, your mind starts playing tricks on you.

16:00

you start to hear things that are not

16:02

there. You start to see things that are

16:04

not there. And one of the

16:06

reasons that scientists think this all

16:08

happens is that your

16:10

brain has evolved

16:13

expecting a lot of sensory input.

16:15

We are bombarded with too much

16:17

visual information, too much auditory, too

16:20

many smells, too many things

16:22

that you could be detecting that are touching

16:24

your skin or whatever. That's the way we've

16:26

evolved. So what the human brain is doing

16:29

is trying to manage all that, and that's

16:31

what we're designed for. Then you put somebody

16:33

in the exact opposite conditions, and the

16:35

brain, because it's expecting all this

16:38

input, basically starts to hallucinate. And

16:40

that's you creating things

16:42

so that you have something to interact with almost?

16:45

It's a little bit like phantom limb. It's a

16:47

little bit like you've got all this neurological

16:51

infrastructure that's expecting inputs.

16:54

Some of these experiments, all you can

16:56

really conclude is that we are

16:58

not designed to be separated from social

17:01

contact, but we are also not designed

17:04

to have no sensory stimulus. And by

17:06

the way, that's why I think it's

17:08

important to note that when you're on

17:10

a desert island or you're on a

17:12

10 day retreat in the woods, it's

17:14

not like you're cut off from sensory

17:16

stimulation. It's only in places like solitary

17:18

confinement where you have no input,

17:21

cuz you're in a cell. Yeah, I

17:23

think that's another important distinction, right? We're

17:25

talking about voluntary versus involuntary isolation, and

17:28

then there's this idea of sensory deprivation

17:30

or not. Right. So

17:33

Angela and I would love to hear your thoughts on

17:36

social isolation, whether that's voluntary

17:38

or involuntary. Record a voice

17:40

memo in a quiet place with your mouth close

17:42

to the phone, and email it to us at

17:44

nsu at freakonomics.com, and maybe we'll play it on

17:46

a future episode of the show. And if you

17:48

like the show and want to support it, the

17:51

best thing you can do is tell a friend

17:53

about it. You can also spread the word

17:55

on social media or leave a review in

17:57

your podcast app. Still

18:01

to come on No Stupid Questions,

18:03

how is being with strangers different

18:05

from being alone? I don't want

18:07

to eat a sandwich on a bridge with a

18:09

cool British guy that I'm never going to see again. No

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rosettastone.com/questions. Now,

20:36

back to Mike and Angela's

20:38

conversation about isolation. One

20:43

other example of someone

20:45

who was involuntarily isolated

20:47

but with lots of

20:49

sensory input was this

20:52

guy who they call him the real

20:54

Robinson Crusoe because this is

20:56

the story that led to... Wait,

20:58

wait, wait, wait. Remind me, Robinson

21:00

Crusoe is a children's story or

21:02

is it a person? I do

21:04

not remember reading that. Robinson Crusoe

21:06

is a book written

21:08

about a man who shipwrecked and

21:11

his experience in

21:13

this shipwreck. This sounds like the kind of book I

21:15

would not want to read. I would be like at

21:17

the library and I'd be like, nope, I

21:20

want to read the book about horses. Okay,

21:22

go on, Robinson Crusoe. So I read this

21:24

article in Smithsonian Magazine about Alexander

21:26

Selkirk who is thought to be the

21:28

guy who is the real

21:30

Robinson Crusoe. The guy

21:33

he's based on was a Scottish sailor

21:36

and he was just really not into

21:38

his ship and he was trying to...

21:40

Wait, sorry, he was just not really

21:42

into his ship. It's true, I don't

21:44

know how to describe it. He was

21:46

a reluctant sailor. I mean, he's just

21:48

not getting along with the captain. He's

21:50

not happy. He tries to kind of

21:52

lead this mutiny thinking other people will

21:54

follow him. Nobody does. He gets kicked

21:56

off the ship, put on this

21:58

island and he thinks like... other people are gonna

22:00

join me, nobody joins him, and so now he's freaking

22:03

out and is like, wait, let me back on, and

22:05

they're like, no, sorry, you're on

22:07

your own. Oh my gosh. And so they

22:09

leave him stranded there. They drop him

22:11

off on an island. Yes, but

22:13

they leave him with bedding, a

22:16

musket, a pistol, gunpowder, a

22:18

hatchet, a knife, navigation

22:20

tools, a pot for boiling food,

22:22

some tobacco, cheese, et cetera. And

22:25

he thinks, okay, I'm probably gonna be here

22:28

for a few days until a good ship

22:30

passes by. But it is

22:32

four years and four months. Oh

22:35

my gosh. And he learns to

22:37

survive, and it's really crazy, because

22:39

at first he's very despondent. Yeah.

22:41

In fact, thinks of using one

22:43

of the bullets to end his

22:46

own life, and he actually

22:48

noted at one point that

22:51

the gnawing hunger that he felt

22:53

was almost this welcome feeling, because

22:55

it at least gave him something to think about. By

22:58

the way, that counts as sensory stimulation. Yes,

23:01

and so I'm saying he's getting lots of

23:03

stimulation here because trees are snapping

23:05

in horrible weather, or there are rats

23:07

that are nibbling on his feet and

23:10

that are all over the island. But

23:12

after he finds food and shelter, then

23:14

it's keeping his sanity. What's interesting is

23:17

even amidst all this, he's

23:19

aware of who he can and can't

23:21

be discovered by. And so the Spanish

23:23

were known to come capture

23:25

people, enslave them, et cetera. And

23:27

so a Spanish ship comes

23:29

by, and you think, oh, I'm stranded on

23:31

a desert island. I'll take

23:33

anything. Nope, he escapes and hides

23:36

from the Spanish, even when

23:38

they find his island, because he

23:40

refuses to be captured by them. Finally,

23:42

he is helped, and he is taken

23:44

off the island. He goes back to

23:46

civilization. But this is what

23:48

I think is so interesting about his

23:50

story. The people that

23:52

found him said, some months after

23:55

first meeting Selkirk, they noticed

23:57

that the cheerful man they had first

23:59

encountered had now become

24:02

burdened by the world. Huh.

24:04

And it was said that he was

24:06

happiest when he confined his

24:09

wants to the natural necessities around

24:11

him, but now that he was

24:13

back in this like world that he

24:15

had not operated in for so

24:17

long, he was burdened again

24:19

by the expectations of the world. And again,

24:21

he was always a bit impetuous. Let's be

24:23

real, that's why he got thrown off the

24:26

boat in the first place. Right. But it's

24:28

this idea of reentry is hard, but

24:30

also his reentry was

24:32

especially hard because he had learned to

24:35

almost thrive in this environment when

24:38

everything else except for what's necessary

24:40

is stripped away. Okay. Did

24:43

not know that story. Obviously

24:45

didn't meet that person. And

24:48

nevertheless, I'm just gonna go out on

24:50

a limb and say that

24:52

somebody who is so difficult that

24:54

he tries to lead a mutiny

24:57

resulting in him being deposited by

25:00

himself on a desert island, and

25:02

then nobody following him suggests

25:05

that he might have some

25:07

personality issues that preceded his

25:10

four years and four months on

25:12

the island. So I am not doubting

25:14

that four years and four months on

25:16

an island could have some influence on

25:18

your personality, but like this was

25:20

just not a typical person.

25:23

Right. And I do though have a

25:26

recommendation for this person who's no

25:28

longer alive. Okay. Let me tell you

25:31

this finding from a study that was done in 1975

25:33

that does suggest a

25:36

kind of prescription for a kind of

25:38

Robinson Caruso who's trying to get

25:41

back into normal society and like

25:43

manage social relations in a way

25:45

that they didn't have to do

25:47

before. So remember we were

25:49

talking about that very sad research on

25:51

the little baby monkeys. We

25:53

were talking about the psychology of touch and I brought

25:55

up this very old research by Harry

25:58

Harlow. Yes. Okay, well,

26:00

you'll remember that Harlow was really

26:02

interested in the psychology of love

26:06

and of attachment and of

26:08

what a healthy childhood was supposed to

26:11

be like. And so he created the

26:13

opposite conditions and he raised these baby

26:16

monkeys in solitude. So

26:18

basically these monkeys had no

26:21

affection, no mom, but

26:23

also by the way, no siblings and

26:25

no peers and monkeys grow

26:28

up like people do, right? Not just

26:30

a mom, but like society. Community,

26:32

yeah. So these little baby monkeys, he

26:34

discovers when you like let them out, like

26:36

put them in the cages with all the

26:38

other monkeys, right? All the other monkeys

26:40

would try to interact with them for at least

26:43

the beginning of when they would be introduced into

26:45

their cage. And then they had these like antisocial

26:47

behavior and they had no idea. But

26:49

here's the thing that I want to say that was encouraging

26:52

and again, possibly a recommendation for

26:54

all of us. So

26:56

this paper is in developmental psychology, so

26:59

top journal then and now, and it's

27:01

published in 1975. It's

27:03

called Social Recovery of Monkeys Isolated for the

27:05

First Year of Life, Rehabilitation

27:09

and Therapy. What Harlow

27:11

did was he took these monkeys who

27:13

had been alone for the first 12

27:15

months of their lives and he knew

27:18

that they were essentially destined for a

27:20

terrible next stage of their life. And

27:23

then he gave them as

27:26

companions, younger monkeys that

27:28

were normal. Interestingly,

27:30

he called these the therapist monkeys.

27:33

And then what he did was pretty much just

27:35

let them interact with each

27:37

other without a lot of intervention.

27:40

And what happens is that these

27:42

awkward, socially maladjusted monkeys who had

27:45

just come out of solitary confinement

27:47

for the first entire year of their life, learn

27:50

how to play. Interesting. They

27:52

learn how to groom. They learn

27:54

how to do these things. So what

27:56

it's just is, what you need to do

27:58

is start with the same. simplest kinds

28:00

of interactions. And in this

28:02

case, that's easier if you hang out with somebody

28:05

who's younger than you. You don't

28:07

want to like try playing tennis with Roger

28:09

Federer when you've never picked up a racket.

28:11

But I would love to try. I mean, I'd be destroyed, but

28:13

I would like. You're like, actually, can

28:15

I go? I know, right? Give

28:18

him the choice. That's not going to get me better

28:20

at tennis. It'll just give me a really cool experience

28:22

playing with Roger Federer. But basically, like

28:25

the idea that these younger therapists, monkeys

28:27

are therapists when all they do is

28:30

engage with the monkeys who

28:32

need help by probably asking

28:34

them for stuff. Right? It's

28:36

to me like this kind of twofold moral.

28:38

Like one is you got to like be

28:40

at the level you are and not try

28:42

to get ahead of yourself. And

28:45

the second thing is I think miraculous curative

28:47

things happen when we're in the role

28:49

of the helper, when we're in the

28:51

role of like, oh, I guess I'm supposed to be

28:54

the responsible one. And I don't

28:56

want to go too far because you're monkeys and they're not people. And

28:58

it was 1975 and I didn't do this research, but I

29:00

have seen it over and over again with people

29:03

of all ages. What brings

29:05

out our best is when we

29:08

are called upon to do something for someone who's

29:10

a little needier than we are. For sure.

29:13

Yes, yes. I feel like for

29:15

most of human history, we all hung out

29:17

together, meaning humanity, in these like very mixed

29:19

age groups. You know, wouldn't be uncommon to

29:21

have a one year old with a six

29:23

year old and a 14 year old

29:25

and a 29 year old and maybe

29:28

somebody who was an old age, like all

29:30

like sitting around together. And

29:32

now what we do is we

29:34

spend so much of our time

29:36

both in adulthood, but absolutely in

29:38

childhood in these very homogenous age

29:40

bands. Like let's put all of

29:42

the first graders together so

29:44

that your whole world is other six year olds. I

29:47

feel like mixed age groups are

29:49

healthier and human civilization has

29:51

progressed in a way that

29:55

segregates us into age groups that's like not

29:57

healthy either when we're young or when we're

29:59

old. I could not agree more and

30:01

one of the great pieces of advice I've got in

30:04

the last few years I know we've talked about this

30:06

before is Conscientiously

30:08

cultivating friendships with people who are

30:10

20 years older and 20 years

30:12

younger than you are because there's

30:14

so much perspective I

30:16

remember the Mike Mon rule of like trying to

30:18

befriend people who were like two

30:20

decades older But I forgot about your young person.

30:22

I think it's really valuable because

30:24

again match the perspective

30:27

of a young hungry

30:29

ambitious 20 year

30:31

old who has no cynicism

30:33

is just excited about what may

30:36

happen in life and Marry

30:38

that with the incredible perspective of

30:40

someone in their 80s who has

30:42

been through so much seen so

30:44

many changes That's such a

30:46

valuable perspective to have both on either

30:49

side, right? I know we've diverged a little

30:51

from Barry's question But to get us back

30:54

I would love to talk about this idea

30:56

of voluntary isolation

30:59

and people who choose to kind of

31:01

go away and maybe as a Precursor

31:04

to this let me share with you a story

31:06

about a woman who decided to spend

31:09

500 days underground

31:12

Isolated from the outside world and this comes from

31:14

a journalist who

31:17

wrote in the Associated Press. Okay So

31:19

this woman her name is Beatrice Flaminie.

31:21

She was 50 years old and

31:23

from Madrid and she goes into this

31:26

cave for 500 days

31:29

and she has people bringing her

31:31

food and Water so

31:33

her needs that way are taken care

31:36

of but outside of that she's completely

31:38

isolated And she

31:40

said she stopped counting how many days

31:42

after like 60 days because you have

31:44

no sense of time She's in a

31:46

cave, right? Yeah, so it wasn't like

31:48

she actually had the Sun setting and

31:50

rising, right? Right. In fact, what's actually

31:53

pretty interesting about this and I read

31:55

about this in a different article by

31:57

tree minch in discovery magazine They I

32:00

talked about another person who had a six month cave

32:02

stay. And when they're in

32:04

this environment, this has happened multiple

32:06

times now, people's wake and sleep

32:08

cycle actually shifts to like

32:11

a 48 hour wake and

32:13

sleep cycle rather than our 24 hour

32:15

one that is based on the sun. In

32:18

fact, there was one guy who slept for 33 hours

32:21

and researchers were like, is he dead? And

32:23

it's like, no, they've just switched to a

32:26

new cycle because you don't have

32:28

the sun anymore. Cause I'm not getting these cues.

32:30

Yeah. Here's what's interesting about this woman

32:32

who is alone for 500 days. By

32:35

herself on purpose. On purpose. Mind

32:38

blowing. She said, I didn't want

32:40

to come out. I am where

32:42

I want to be. And she used

32:44

the time again, this is not solitary

32:46

confinement. She used the time to read,

32:48

to draw, to weave, to

32:51

quote be and to

32:53

enjoy. And she was able to

32:55

leave at any time, right? Nobody was forcing

32:57

her. Exactly. That's a difference, right? Like maybe

32:59

that's the difference between solitary confinement and solitude.

33:02

It's choice. Honestly, that's what

33:04

I got from thinking about Barry's question

33:06

and all of these things. You have

33:08

talked a number of times about how

33:10

important agency is to us and that

33:12

that's almost this fundamental primal need we

33:14

have is to make our own decisions.

33:17

Not even almost it is. Like

33:19

we've ticked off kind of, well, for

33:22

survival, you need water and you need food

33:24

and you need shelter. But then we're like,

33:26

oh wait, you also need social contact. I

33:28

also think that we are wired to need

33:31

control or agency. So

33:33

this woman for reasons I cannot truly empathize

33:35

with, like wanting to be in a cave

33:37

for 500 days, but it

33:39

was her choice and she knew she could leave anytime she

33:41

wanted. Right, and she still had the agency

33:43

as to how to use her time. Yes. And

33:46

I think that's what's so key is in

33:48

this idea of voluntary versus involuntary. Even

33:51

the dumb example I used of having way

33:53

too many things to do, and I love

33:55

when I have a free evening. But sometimes

33:58

I'm like, wait a minute, this is an. involuntary free

34:00

evening. I'm gonna go crazy. Then

34:03

you're lonely. Right. I think for

34:05

me, I'm trying to remember if I've

34:07

ever wanted to be alone

34:09

for more than an evening. Did

34:12

you ever read that book by Cheryl Strayed?

34:15

What is it even called? She like goes on the

34:17

Appalachian Trail. Is it wild? That's right.

34:20

I mean, there's this woman and she's having some kind of

34:22

crisis in her life. It's beautifully written by

34:24

the way. I was like, wow, this woman can write. And

34:26

the premise of it is like, she

34:28

decides to hike the Appalachian Trail as

34:31

some people do when they are feeling

34:33

like they really need to reset their

34:35

life. And that is voluntary solitude. I

34:39

don't want to do it, but I'm trying to

34:41

remember if there's any time

34:43

in my life that I've wanted to do even

34:45

a version of hiking the Appalachian Trail by myself.

34:49

And I think in my

34:51

twenties, I would do these stupid things. I

34:53

mean, stupid for me. I would

34:55

just be like, I'm going to buy

34:57

this rail pass and travel

34:59

around Europe. I don't even know

35:01

if these things still exist, but they would be these like train

35:03

passes. And like you could take almost any coach

35:06

train all over Europe with just

35:08

a student pass, like without paying

35:10

for individual tickets. So I remember this time in

35:12

my early twenties, where I thought that was like

35:14

the most genius idea ever that I

35:17

could live on bread and chocolate

35:20

milk and just like see Europe. And

35:23

it was voluntary, but Mike, I have

35:25

to say that unlike Cheryl Strayed, I

35:27

was miserable. Like I did

35:30

not come home with like epiphanies about my, so

35:33

sad. I have

35:35

zero desire to be

35:37

by myself for extended periods of time.

35:40

I think the difference with Cheryl Strayed is

35:42

while you are sort of alone, there's

35:44

still a lot of human interaction along

35:47

the trail. You're meeting other people all

35:49

the time. Oh, yeah. You're engaging with

35:51

them. I actually think that there is

35:53

so much beauty to doing

35:55

things with strangers because it

35:58

opens you up to an entire world. world

36:00

of people, whereas if you're only with

36:02

your friends and you're like, hey, I

36:04

wanna hike this with just my

36:06

buddies, then you tend to group with people

36:08

who are similar to you. So

36:11

that's where I think with Cheryl Strayed, yes,

36:13

you're on your own, but it also opens

36:15

you up to so many experiences by choosing

36:18

to do something on

36:20

your own versus just hanging out with your

36:22

group. Okay, and

36:24

I recall during my little European adventure,

36:28

I mean, I had this one vivid memory of being on

36:30

a bridge and like eating a sandwich, my

36:32

legs dangling over the side with somebody I'd met

36:34

at a hostel. I remember his name, his name

36:36

was Michael, and it was like British, and I made

36:38

like one of the first British people I ever met. It was like, oh my

36:40

gosh, coolest accent ever. Oh

36:42

my gosh, you went to one of those little prep schools

36:44

that I've read about in books, like it was super cool.

36:47

And I still don't want that.

36:50

I'm not saying like, nobody should want

36:53

that. I'm just saying Angela Duckworth does not want

36:55

that. I don't want to eat a sandwich on

36:57

a bridge with a cool British guy

36:59

that I'm never gonna see again. I-

37:03

You want to eat a sandwich with Jason on a bridge. I

37:05

don't want to basically eat a sandwich with Jason. Or,

37:09

you know, Amanda or

37:11

Lucy or Mike Mon. I mean, you

37:13

know, I have other people, but

37:15

I'm not saying that that's wrong. I think

37:17

there are people who enjoy meeting, you

37:20

know, it's like your paths cross and then

37:22

your paths don't stay together and like, that's

37:24

a beautiful and wonderful thing. But

37:27

I don't know, it's just very interesting. I

37:29

agree with you about voluntary versus involuntary, but

37:31

I think some people would choose to

37:34

have that kind of voluntary solitude.

37:36

And other people, at least

37:38

at times in their life, would say like,

37:41

I do not want voluntary solitude. Like, you know, if

37:43

you're giving me the choice, because this is all about

37:45

choice, then like I choose not. Right. Look,

37:48

I think that overall, life is better

37:51

when shared with people, and especially with

37:53

people that you love. And

37:55

I think if Barry had the choice of

37:57

eating a sandwich on a bridge, legs

38:00

dangling over the side by himself or

38:03

with his daughter, Rebecca. I think

38:05

we know which one he'd pick. Coming

38:08

up after the break, a fact check

38:10

of today's episode and stories from our

38:12

NSQ listeners. One or two times per

38:14

week, I quote, work a three

38:16

hour shift where my job is to sit

38:18

there and cuddle babies. Cheers

38:29

to a great day and this ice cold

38:31

Corona. You know what would make this day

38:33

even better? My grandma's carne asada. Throw in

38:35

some music. We can watch the game. Or

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we could keep it simple. Corona, la vida

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mas fina. Get your Corona at ordercorona.com or

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elect responsibly. Corona Extra Beer imported by Schwab

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traders, all designed to

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help you trade brilliantly. Learn

39:13

more at schwab.com/trading. And

39:20

now here's a fact check of today's

39:22

conversation. William Broyles Jr.

39:24

did write the scripts for Apollo 13,

39:27

Planet of the Apes and Castaway, all

39:30

films whose protagonists struggle to survive away

39:32

from civilization as they know it, but

39:35

Mike got the order wrong. Apollo

39:37

13 came first, then Castaway and

39:39

finally Planet of the Apes. Later,

39:42

Angela says that prisoners held in

39:45

solitary confinement are deprived of sensory

39:47

stimulation. However, as psychologist

39:49

Craig Henley explains in his book chapter,

39:51

Solitary is Not Solitude, solitary confinement is

39:53

a quote, problematic

39:56

combination of too little and too

40:00

much sensory stimulation. While

40:03

prisoners certainly experience a reduced

40:05

and monotonous environment, he

40:08

writes that they're often subjected

40:10

to loud noises, bright lights,

40:12

and foul smells. The

40:15

reduced environmental stimulation that he discusses

40:17

in his research refers to the

40:19

lack of positive stimuli only. Also,

40:22

Cheryl Strayed's book Wild is about

40:24

the author's experience hiking the Pacific

40:26

Crest Trail, not the Appalachian Trail.

40:29

And finally, you can still buy a

40:32

Ural Pass, which allows customers

40:34

to travel within 33 European

40:36

countries by train. That's it

40:38

for the Fact Check. Before

40:41

we wrap today's show, let's hear some

40:44

thoughts about last week's episode on Physical

40:46

Touch. Hey Angela and Mike,

40:48

this is Jordan Kolling from Denver, Colorado. I

40:50

also grew up in a low-touch household, but

40:53

pardon the pun, started embracing the idea of

40:55

hugging friends and family in my high school

40:57

years. When I got to college,

40:59

I learned to swing dance and noticed that a great

41:01

side effect of the experience was that I was receiving

41:04

a lot more platonic touch than I was in

41:06

my everyday life before that. I'd suggest it for

41:08

anyone that is feeling a lacking in the touch

41:10

department and is able to to

41:12

go take some partner dancing classes, be

41:14

it swing, salsa, bachata, blue, zook. The

41:17

communities are typically very welcoming and you don't need

41:19

to bring your own partner. That's

41:21

a great way to socialize, increase your amount of

41:23

platonic touch, and expand horizons. Hi

41:26

Angela and Mike, Michael from Michigan

41:28

here. I'm a 63-year-old

41:30

retiree who is lucky enough to

41:32

serve as a volunteer cuddler at

41:34

our local hospital's neonatal intensive care

41:37

unit. One or two times per week,

41:39

I quote, work a three-hour shift

41:42

where my job is to sit

41:44

there and cuddle babies, holding, stroking,

41:46

singing. We cuddle babies who are

41:49

one, having a bad day, two, have

41:52

a chronic condition, usually alcohol

41:54

or opioid withdrawal, and

41:56

three, perhaps most importantly, do not have

41:58

much interaction with family. typically

42:00

due to economic circumstances, parents working or

42:03

a lack of resources to be able

42:05

to travel to the hospital. It's

42:07

good for the babies. It's good

42:09

for the sometimes overwhelmed nursing staff.

42:12

And selfishly, it's good for me too. At

42:15

least once per week, I get a three hour cuddle.

42:18

That was respectively Jordan

42:20

Capilouto and Michael Cartier.

42:23

Thanks to them and to everyone who shared their

42:25

stories with us. And remember,

42:27

we'd love to hear your

42:29

thoughts about voluntary or involuntary

42:31

isolation. Send a voice

42:34

memo to NSQ at freakonomics.com and you

42:36

might hear your voice on the show.

42:40

Coming up next week

42:42

on No Stupid Questions, what

42:45

are values, really? Do

42:48

you vibe with being a mobster or do you

42:50

vibe with caring about the world? That's

42:52

coming up on No Stupid Questions. No

42:55

Stupid Questions is part of the

42:57

Freakonomics Radio Network which also includes

42:59

Freakonomics Radio, People I

43:01

Mostly Admire and The Economics of

43:03

Everyday Things. All our shows are

43:05

produced by Stitcher and Rumbud Radio.

43:07

The senior producer of the show

43:09

is me, Rebecca Lee Douglas and

43:12

Lyric Bowditch is our production associate.

43:14

This episode was mixed by Jasmine

43:16

Clinger and Jeremy Johnston. We

43:19

had research assistants from Daniel Moritz-Rabson.

43:22

Our theme song was composed by Luis Guerra.

43:25

You can follow us on Twitter

43:27

at NSQ underscore show and on

43:29

Facebook at NSQ show. If

43:32

you have a question for a future

43:34

episode, please email it to NSQ at

43:36

freakonomics.com. To learn

43:38

more or to read episode

43:41

transcripts, visit freakonomics.com/NSQ. Thanks

43:43

for listening. Take

43:50

that psychology. The

43:52

Freakonomics Radio Network, the

43:55

hidden side of everything. Stitcher.

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when the bubbles turned green and every

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message was Cam likes this and Claire

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