0:00

Here's a lesson I've been learning these past

0:02

few years. these past few are just not

0:04

having productive and thoughtful conversations about the

0:06

impact of Gen Z folks in the

0:08

workplace. the impact that's not a good thing. It's

0:10

not a good thing at all. And that's

0:12

all know I coach thing. of larger

0:14

good at all. often these folks at

0:16

the top fall into the gen and

0:19

often these the baby boomer demo. fall into

0:21

the Gen X what I

0:23

hear about boomer demo. Thus, really

0:25

skewed, Gen Z folks is really skewed, unflattering,

0:28

agist, biased. I've had

0:30

more than a few a directors tell

0:32

me they are at wit's end

0:34

are at that the level of entitlement

0:36

demonstrated by Gen Z employees is

0:38

so off the charts off the impacting

0:40

their job satisfaction. their job questioning

0:42

decisions, pushing leadership to weigh

0:44

in on topics to weigh in on topics

0:46

being disruptive in this pejorative

0:48

sense of the word. sense of the

0:51

word. if you ask me,

0:53

because folks get into nonprofit work

0:55

because they are fundamentally. are fundamentally

0:57

disruptors. These

0:59

same complaining leaders. are the

1:01

same the same people who

1:03

hired DEI consultants to try to

1:05

to try to create a

1:08

culture of belonging and inclusion

1:10

in their workplace. you kidding Are you

1:12

kidding me right now? that we are is

1:14

it that we a missing age as a core component

1:16

of diversity? And engaging

1:18

in bias and in

1:20

all age directions that would never

1:23

be tolerated when considering race,

1:25

gender, sexual orientation, identity or

1:27

ability. That's what I I talk about

1:29

today. today. So I'm I'm excited

1:31

to bring a woman who's focused

1:33

on diversity, equity, equity, who has been

1:35

vocal about the centrality of age

1:37

of diversity conversations. And

1:39

my other guest has played a

1:41

lot of positions in the

1:43

social sector field. She falls into

1:46

the Gen Z demographic Z and

1:48

is passionate about living out

1:50

the living out about us about us

1:52

motto of social justice movements. So,

1:54

today, let's change the question,

1:56

reframe the issue, move move us

1:58

all toward building a culture of. inclusion

2:00

for all, regardless of age. of

2:03

age. Greetings and welcome to

2:05

Nonprofits or Greetings and welcome

2:07

your host are messy. founder of the

2:09

your host, Joan Gary, Leadership Lab, where

2:11

we lab where we help

2:14

smaller I'm thrive. I'm

2:16

also a strategic advisor for executive

2:18

directors and boards of larger nonprofits.

2:20

non-profits. I'm a frequent keynote speaker, a

2:22

a blogger, and an author on

2:24

all things leadership and management.

2:26

You can learn more at Joan

2:29

Gary.com. I think of myself as

2:31

a woman with a mission with a fuel the leadership

2:33

of the non -profit sector. the My

2:35

goal with each episode is to dig

2:37

deep into an issue I know that I

2:39

-profit leaders are grappling with are finding just

2:41

the right person to offer you advice

2:43

to offer you advice and insights. Today

2:45

is no exception. So

2:48

our our first guest today

2:50

is Mustafa, the daughter of Bangladeshi daughter

2:52

of Bangladeshi Muslim Mustafa is

2:54

LaMisa Mustafa is an education

2:56

justice advocate in in

2:58

community organizing, social

3:01

science research, and strategic

3:03

consulting. As evaluation associate at

3:05

the Stanford Childhood, LaMisa

3:07

co -designs and conducts

3:09

mixed mixed methods studies. in

3:11

anti -racist, community and

3:14

equitable practices to help early care and

3:16

help early care gain a deeper

3:18

initiatives, of a deeper understanding of the

3:20

impact of the work. on the they serve.

3:22

Lemisa LaMisa collaborates with partners across

3:25

the social sector to drive program

3:27

and system level improvements for historically

3:29

and and marginalized

3:31

groups. groups. Throughout her

3:33

career, LaMisa has been grabbing

3:35

on to this. nothing about about

3:37

us to us. that all to ensure

3:39

that all children and families, providers

3:42

providers and educators in the United

3:44

States can thrive, not just survive. survive.

3:46

LaMisa let's go through this, shall

3:48

we? shall we, a of public policy, a

3:51

certification in in early

3:53

learning science and child

3:55

policy from UC Berkeley, and

3:57

a Berkeley, and a B.A. and a B.S. Southern.

3:59

Methodist University. That's

4:01

a long a long CV.

4:04

Welcome, Thanks so much, Joan. Thanks so

4:06

much, Joan. be glad to be here with

4:08

you and Bianca, and thanks for that kind

4:10

introduction. You're very

4:12

welcome. It has the added

4:14

benefit of being true. of being

4:16

The other partner in our

4:19

conversation is Bianca Casanova Anderson, educator, non-profit

4:21

leader, and social justice practitioner

4:23

with expertise in interpersonal communications,

4:25

racial equity facilitation, and human development.

4:28

As an educator for almost a decade,

4:30

a decade, Ms. found her passion for human

4:32

for change in the classroom. classroom. She

4:34

built a unique. background cultivating

4:36

inclusive learning environments, that

4:39

center relationships center voices

4:41

and disrupt racism. and

4:44

As the founding director for the

4:46

Dallas Fort Worth Center for the Center

4:48

for Racial for the Education, she

4:50

trained and advised over

4:52

3 ,000 community leaders

4:54

and educators around the

4:56

nation in effective racial

4:58

equity policies, practices, and

5:00

procedures. and In 2021, 2021. Bianco

5:02

has promoted to co

5:05

-CEO where supports non -profit

5:07

organizations and foundations with

5:09

accelerating racial equity from from

5:11

self to systems. Bianca, thanks

5:13

so much for taking time out to

5:15

engage in this conversation with us. us.

5:17

Great to be to be here. I'm

5:19

really excited for the conversation, Jim. So

5:22

let me me set a stage for you and

5:24

have each of you to react to it.

5:26

Now of course, I'm in the open, I think

5:28

think I I I a stage and saw some

5:30

nodding heads. The The landscape in the nonprofit sector

5:32

is changing. changing and for us to consider

5:34

this narrowly, that there are more

5:36

Gen Z folks entering the workforce, mark

5:39

off the mark because studies show of

5:41

the age of non employees is actually

5:43

shifting at both ends. both ends. The Washington

5:45

Post reported that Americans are

5:47

working into their 60s and 70s

5:49

because of longer and 70s financial

5:52

incentives to retire financial incentives to retire and

5:54

the need to make ends

5:56

meet. ends So we got more folks

5:58

in the the bracket. bracket. age and

6:00

power that have been historically intersected,

6:02

we've got older people at the top

6:04

and in power. the top And then

6:06

we look at And then we the

6:08

growing section of the workforce, of

6:10

the By workforce, right? By 2030, it's it's

6:12

estimated that 30 % of the

6:15

workforce Gen will be Gen Z

6:17

employees. that So think about that

6:19

for a moment. And the prevailing

6:21

wisdom about Gen Z employees. of

6:23

an the values of an organization

6:25

matter, to the ability to drive meaning

6:27

and purpose from their professional lives

6:29

matter. lives matter. They come not

6:31

just. hoping there's there's diversity,

6:33

equity, and inclusion in

6:35

racial equity conversations. They

6:37

come expecting it. Gen

6:39

Z employees have less trust

6:41

in institutions? in and

6:44

they see power. differently.

6:46

Further, Further, I would just

6:48

say say they are the first

6:50

generation of digital natives, and

6:52

they are the most diverse

6:54

demographic group we have. have. So let's

6:56

take that set up, and

6:58

start with you. and What

7:00

does that mean, does right? mean,

7:03

As we work to

7:05

build something better and stronger

7:07

because of all of that,

7:09

rather than in spite

7:11

of it? Thoughts? I Yeah,

7:13

I definitely resonate with

7:16

the background you just shared.

7:18

shared. I think there there is

7:20

a sense among or a belief

7:22

among me me my peers that

7:24

the way things have always been,

7:26

doesn't have to be the

7:28

way that things continue to

7:30

be. to the status quo,

7:32

I think, quo, I think, oftentimes been

7:34

built to privilege certain folks

7:36

and keep certain folks in

7:38

power. so I think so I think

7:40

there's a lot of potential

7:42

with gency folks like coming coming

7:44

into leadership and coming into

7:46

the sector the do things

7:49

differently. differently. Bianca, what would you add? you

7:51

add? Yeah, you know, know, one of

7:53

the things that I think sometimes

7:55

is maybe missing from the conversation

7:57

around Gen Z what they provide is hope.

8:00

When I think about the things

8:02

that they are looking for,

8:04

values, they're being able to live

8:06

and work holistically, say, believing that

8:08

organizations will. their their ex -spouse

8:11

values through their policies and their practices.

8:13

to me To me that says, I believe

8:15

that this place can be different. I

8:17

I have hope for our sector. so so

8:19

when I think about it, I really

8:21

get encouraged because they're kind of calling

8:23

us in to be who we say

8:25

we are. we are. Yeah, I I

8:27

also think to Bianca, to your point,

8:29

I believe that people who are

8:31

in power like to hold to to

8:33

it. They don't like to share it

8:35

very much, right? very and I

8:37

really feel like. like This

8:39

generation is bringing something new.

8:41

It's bringing a different

8:44

kind of energy, a

8:46

different kind of relationship to power.

8:48

It's bringing a creativity. a that

8:50

I think. that I think ago

8:53

ago, when some of those

8:55

boomers started these organizations in

8:57

the 1970s, Right? They they

8:59

evolved away from some of

9:01

that, and that if

9:03

we can actually create organizations

9:06

where all these voices learn

9:08

from one another, like there's

9:10

just so much potential. much you think?

9:12

Lemisa? Don't you think, definitely. Yeah,

9:15

I think there often

9:17

is a hesitation around

9:19

hiring folks folks, of in

9:21

terms of a not

9:23

being a culture fit, but

9:26

I think there's a lot of potential

9:28

to see. see Gen Z folks as

9:30

culture ads and rather than just

9:32

a rather than just a culture

9:34

fit because can see that

9:36

as can see that as

9:39

opportunities for improvement and just in

9:41

in fresh new perspectives to act

9:43

in act in alignment with

9:45

what they say they're about. he

9:47

probably has some of these

9:50

stats stats mean, mean, we have a a have

9:52

a work force shortage in the

9:54

nonprofit sector. not like, like, gee, it

9:56

would be, be, know, should

9:58

we hire some Gen Z. It's

10:00

like we need Gen Z folks

10:02

in our workplace. Nearly three out

10:05

of every four non-profits reported job

10:07

vacancies. More than half of them

10:09

have more vacancies now compared to

10:11

before the pandemic, right? Like not

10:13

only do we need to make

10:15

this work, but here we have

10:18

Gen Z folks who are looking

10:20

for meaning and purpose. who want

10:22

values aligned organizations, the social impact

10:24

sector offers that better than anyone

10:26

else or should, and we need

10:28

more people, right? So it feels

10:31

to me that the stars are

10:33

aligned, we just actually are creating

10:35

a lot of tension among our

10:37

stars. I don't know, what do

10:39

you think, Bianca? Yeah, you know,

10:41

going back to your earlier point

10:43

around power and folks who have

10:46

power not wanting to relinquish it.

10:48

I think one of the other

10:50

nuances there is that there are

10:52

more people of color in particular

10:54

women of color in power today

10:56

at holding executive leadership positions than

10:59

there were in the past. Yes.

11:01

And, you know, that part of

11:03

it I do think could be

11:05

explored a little bit more around

11:07

why being in the seat and

11:09

being feeling like you're respected in

11:11

the seat or feeling like you

11:14

know folks are listening to your

11:16

decision making not over scrutinizing your

11:18

work is important particularly as it

11:20

relates to women of color who

11:22

have worked really really hard to

11:24

get to these positions but I

11:27

think where the disconnect and the

11:29

tension begins to happen is we're

11:31

not listening to each other's lived

11:33

experience. So if I, you know,

11:35

if I as a woman of

11:37

color leader don't share my story

11:40

with my team, if I don't

11:42

stop and listen to the stories

11:44

of the young folks who are

11:46

in our organization, we're not ever

11:48

going to really see eye to

11:50

eye and understand what one another

11:52

needs. So I think it's being

11:55

able to perspective take and stories

11:57

held that might help us with

11:59

that tension. on that.

12:01

And in this research that

12:03

I've recently been doing, there's

12:05

a sociologist, a guy by

12:07

the name of Carl Mannheim,

12:09

and he talks about the

12:11

historical, so how did the,

12:13

how did different generations actually

12:16

get created? And that often,

12:18

one of the primary ways

12:20

that it happens is that

12:22

by historical events, and historical

12:24

events that occurred during the

12:26

young adulthood, of that particular

12:28

cohort of humans, right, that

12:30

shape what that demographic, how

12:32

that demographic operates and lives

12:34

in the world, right? So,

12:36

and this goes to your,

12:38

this goes to your point,

12:40

because I, there's a story,

12:42

you know, I have here

12:45

on my notes, a 2024

12:47

study, and I want you

12:49

to react to this, A

12:51

2024 study said that other

12:53

generational groups saw Genzies as,

12:55

wait for it, less capable,

12:57

more opinionated, and more selfish

12:59

than other generations. So hold

13:01

that thought for a second.

13:03

And then think about what

13:05

I just said about Mannheim's

13:07

theory about historical events. Think

13:09

about Genzies have never known

13:12

life on the internet. Gen

13:14

Z's have never known terrorism,

13:16

have never known school shootings,

13:18

have never, right, the murder

13:20

of George Floyd. All of

13:22

these things shaped who Gen

13:24

Z people are, and we

13:26

don't think about that. We

13:28

think, right, the 2024 study

13:30

says, less capable, more opinionated,

13:32

and more selfish. And I

13:34

want to know, let me

13:36

say, is that how it

13:39

feels to you? And you

13:41

get to speak for all

13:43

Gen Z's people today, by

13:45

the by the way. Yeah,

13:49

so I'm interested in your reaction

13:51

to all of that. I think

13:53

folks maybe have that perspective of

13:56

people and gender. opinionated and all

13:58

the other adjectives you used. And

14:01

I think what comes up is

14:03

this like idea of individual blame

14:05

versus systemic issues. And I honestly

14:08

think that a lot of what

14:10

Gen Z folks are wanting in

14:12

their workplaces and in their work

14:15

experiences is changing how those places

14:17

function. And I could see how

14:19

from a leadership perspective that that

14:22

comes off as that person not

14:24

wanting to work as hard and

14:27

maybe not caring enough and being

14:29

very entitled, but really what we're

14:31

calling for is that we need

14:34

workplaces that see us as human

14:36

beings and that allow us to

14:38

like thrive and tend to our

14:41

well-being. We shouldn't like have to

14:43

sacrifice those things for the work

14:45

we do. Yeah, Bianca. Do you

14:48

want to do you want to

14:50

jump in? Yeah, you know, I

14:53

also believe there has been a

14:55

decrease in mentorship within the workplace.

14:57

When I'm talking to Gen Ziers,

15:00

particularly in the nonprofit sector, they're

15:02

saying, I want to learn more.

15:04

I want to you know, gain

15:07

these skills, but I don't really

15:09

have anyone reaching out to be

15:11

a mentor. How do you get

15:14

a mentor? And so when I

15:16

think about some of the complaints,

15:19

you know, folks may have around

15:21

their Gen Z employees. One of

15:23

my questions becomes, well, what type

15:26

of relationships have you built with

15:28

them? How are they learning or

15:30

seeing, experiencing something different? Right? Because

15:33

if you're new to the workforce,

15:35

of course you got some demands.

15:38

Of course you have some things

15:40

you want to be different. And

15:42

that's what we need, right? That's

15:45

what the energy we need. But

15:47

sometimes we do need to harness

15:49

that energy with some wisdom. And

15:52

I think that mentorship allows for

15:54

that generational wisdom to be shared

15:56

as well. Do you agree with

15:59

my premise? Bianca that

16:01

that people think DEA I work

16:03

and they do not think about

16:05

age absolutely yeah absolutely and I

16:08

think it's on both sides right

16:10

there's like when you're doing like

16:12

DEA training as a practitioner we

16:14

talk about ageism and we talk

16:16

about there's like just a sweet

16:19

spot in the workforce it's between

16:21

like 30s and 40s where you're

16:23

the perfect age and then after

16:25

that you're too old and before

16:28

that you're too young you know

16:30

And yes, I think it has

16:32

to do a lot with our

16:34

productive mentality or our biases around

16:37

what productivity looks like. But yeah,

16:39

I definitely think that there is

16:41

agism that happens and it's just

16:43

compounded by other identifications, other ways

16:46

that people identify that they could

16:48

be marginalized for as well. Yeah,

16:50

I came across another statistic that

16:52

really made my, had a head

16:54

explosion of Boji, which is at

16:57

77% of Gen Z employees are

16:59

looking for work all the time.

17:01

Does that number surprise you, Lemisa?

17:03

It doesn't surprise me. I don't

17:06

know what like the root of

17:08

this is, but I have a

17:10

sense like in my parents' generation,

17:12

for example, I think it was

17:15

a lot more common for folks

17:17

to stick with the same company

17:19

for as long as possible and

17:21

to try to work toward upward

17:24

mobility and promotions like within the

17:26

same organization. But I also wonder

17:28

if part of that was just

17:30

less leeway, less opportunity to like

17:32

demand things to be different and

17:35

better. And I think that that

17:37

is part of the like always

17:39

searching for what's next that happens

17:41

among a lot of my peers

17:44

is like we shouldn't have to

17:46

tolerate like, you know, different experiences

17:48

where we're like not valued and

17:50

we're not. work isn't valued as

17:53

much as it should be or

17:55

our voice isn't included or other

17:57

things too, especially with like our

17:59

kind of hybrid work environment now

18:01

in this like time of the

18:04

pandemic and organizations may be not

18:06

building in the flexibility that folks

18:08

are looking for. for safety reasons

18:10

or for other reasons. So I

18:13

think there's just a sense of,

18:15

I don't have to accept that

18:17

this, whatever the current environment is

18:19

in my workplace, is the only

18:22

option. Like I can look for

18:24

something better. So I think that

18:26

is maybe something that drives that

18:28

kind of always searching for another

18:31

opportunity. Yeah, as I have actually

18:33

been doing a lot more research

18:35

on the Gen Z demographic. There

18:37

is also probably built into that

18:39

77% is issues of pay equity

18:42

and looking for side hustles. Like

18:44

I think there's some of that

18:46

in there too. Bianca and would

18:48

you agree with that? Yes, I

18:51

think that it, particularly as we

18:53

think about the influence of technology

18:55

and social media on this, what

18:57

I call maybe an age of

19:00

discontent. is that you know this

19:02

social media causes comparison, right? Like

19:04

so we can share all this

19:06

information and I'm comparing. If I'm

19:09

looking at my social media feed,

19:11

there is an intrinsic thing that

19:13

begins to happen where you compare

19:15

your life or your situation to

19:17

someone else's or whatever you're seeing.

19:20

I invited almost to like online

19:22

dating, you know, you're on your

19:24

app, you're like, swipe site, ooh,

19:26

wait, but I want to keep

19:29

looking. You know, and so I

19:31

do wonder how things like technology

19:33

for all of us have kind

19:35

of created this discontentment or continuing

19:38

to seek and look for more

19:40

as opposed to understanding what satisfaction

19:42

may be like for a season

19:44

of our lives, you know, or

19:46

taking the time to really get

19:49

clear on, what is the difference

19:51

I'm looking for in my next

19:53

career step and why? And then

19:55

again seeking that's with it, whether

19:58

it's in your current workplace. And

20:00

the last thing I'll say on

20:02

that is, I do think the

20:04

nonprofit sector could do a better

20:07

job with creating growth pathways for

20:09

leaders who are like emerging leaders.

20:11

Most of the time, our organizations

20:13

don't have clear growth pathways. So

20:16

if you're someone who is really

20:18

achievement oriented or growth oriented, you're

20:20

going to keep looking because you

20:22

can feel when you're about to

20:24

hit that seal. Yeah,

20:27

leadership development and investing in

20:29

the people on our teams

20:31

is sadly, it's seen as

20:33

general operating expense that is

20:35

hard to fund, and it

20:37

is a systemic issue in

20:39

our sector that people are

20:42

not given the tools and

20:44

skills they need. in order

20:46

to be the best they

20:48

can be in their jobs

20:50

and grow and develop. Right?

20:52

And you see leadership transitions

20:54

all the time where someone

20:57

says, well, is there any

20:59

viable internal candidate? Like, no,

21:01

no, definitely not. Why not?

21:03

Why? Why? Why does it

21:05

have to be like that?

21:07

All right, now I'm mad.

21:10

Why did it come back

21:12

to something you mentioned around

21:15

like side hustle culture and

21:17

that thing that is really

21:19

common now among Gen Z

21:21

folks? I think it's really

21:24

important to acknowledge how just

21:26

like economic well-being and the

21:28

struggles to just like make

21:30

ends meet and pay for

21:33

basic necessities is a part

21:35

of this. Yes. I think

21:37

a lot of my peers

21:39

and I, we maybe don't

21:42

even have home ownership as

21:44

like an aspiration in our

21:46

lives because it feels so

21:48

unattainable. Whereas that, you know,

21:51

I feel like owning a

21:53

home, white picket fence, like

21:55

that is still like such

21:57

a big part of like

22:00

American culture and what folks

22:02

dream toward. that's really sad,

22:04

actually, you know, if you

22:06

think about it. And so

22:09

I think just needing to

22:11

have more than one job

22:13

is also a part of

22:15

living and surviving. Yes. In

22:18

fact, actually, you are spot

22:20

on is that there is

22:22

a certain degree of pessimism

22:24

that runs through Gen Z

22:27

folks because inflation. They don't

22:29

see homeownership. as something to

22:31

aspire. They see that as

22:33

more fantastical than aspirational. So

22:36

I think it's legit and

22:38

therefore the hunger for pay

22:40

equity and the agency of

22:42

the voices sort of create

22:45

a bit of a perfect

22:47

storm. The Nonprofit Leadership Lab

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22:51

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23:18

We are having a conversation

23:20

about, so you think we

23:23

were talking about navigating Genzies

23:25

in the workplace, but that's

23:27

actually not what we're talking

23:29

about at all. We're talking

23:32

about diversity, equity, and inclusion.

23:34

We're talking about creating a

23:36

real sense of belonging in

23:38

your workplace. for everyone who

23:41

works there, and that includes

23:43

people of different ages. And

23:45

we are talking with Bianca

23:47

Anderson, and we are also

23:49

talking with Lemisa Mustafa. Their

23:52

very impressive bios are in

23:54

the show notes. Lemisa is

23:56

a member of the Gen

23:58

Z demographic. Bianca has been

24:01

in the world of education.

24:03

She's been a nonprofit leader

24:05

and a social justice practitioner

24:07

and has trained and advised

24:10

thousands of community leaders around

24:12

the nation on effective racial

24:14

equity policies practices and procedures.

24:16

Okay, so we've outlined the

24:18

issues. Let's talk about motivation.

24:21

Right? So I believe that

24:23

tapping into what really motivates

24:25

someone is essential to their

24:27

job satisfaction, essential to their

24:30

retention. And someone like Daniel

24:32

Pink will tell you that

24:34

the motivating drivers are usually

24:36

autonomy, mastery, purpose. Right, but

24:39

there's lots of schools of

24:41

thought about that, but I

24:43

want to ask Lemisa and

24:45

then Bianca. Where do you

24:47

think the motivators are for

24:50

folks in the Gen Z

24:52

demographic? And I'll start with

24:54

Lemisa and then we'll go

24:56

to Bianca. Yeah, I think

24:59

in your intro, you were

25:01

doing a reframe away from

25:03

navigating around Gen Z and

25:05

the workforce. And I wanted

25:08

to go back to that

25:10

because I think it's really

25:12

important to reframe that. It

25:14

kind of positions Gen-Z folks

25:16

as something to deal with.

25:19

And I think it puts

25:21

the onus to have to

25:23

change and to have to

25:25

do something to make our

25:28

experiences better versus putting the

25:30

onus on the organization to

25:32

create a culture where we

25:34

can thrive and belong. And

25:37

I think motivation is tied

25:39

to this as well because

25:41

I think if there's a

25:43

culture where sharing feedback means

25:45

that that feedback will actually

25:48

be heard and even if

25:50

what we suggest can't be

25:52

implemented. will still be a

25:54

closed feedback loop. Like that

25:57

feels kind of like a

25:59

low bar. But a lot

26:01

of organizations don't have mechanisms

26:03

for closing feedback loops, which

26:06

can make people feel deflated.

26:08

And I think that can

26:10

also impact motivation. So I

26:12

want to make sure that

26:14

we're also thinking about what

26:17

organizations can do and not

26:19

necessarily like things that are

26:21

personal or intrinsic to like

26:23

Genzi employees themselves. if I

26:26

can just play that back,

26:28

is what should organizations be

26:30

doing, regardless of whether we're

26:32

talking about Gen Z or

26:35

we're talking about people with

26:37

different abilities, right? All of

26:39

these things are universal, right?

26:41

The feedback thing is really

26:43

interesting, and then I'm going

26:46

to go to Bianca, because

26:48

another thing that I really,

26:50

I found really interesting in

26:52

my research is that, and

26:55

again, We are making sort

26:57

of generalizations by an entire

26:59

demographic. I get that. But

27:01

for the purpose of this

27:04

conversation, I think it's a

27:06

value. Feedback is this is

27:08

big. It's big for everyone.

27:10

Gen Z's really want it

27:12

and they want it fast.

27:15

And by the way, Why

27:17

shouldn't they? And why shouldn't an organization

27:20

be organized in such a way? But

27:22

yes, the feedback on how I'm doing

27:24

and not like waiting for a week

27:27

and a half for a meeting, as

27:29

I have learned more about your demographic,

27:31

Lemisa, which has been such a gift

27:33

to me to actually be digging into

27:36

this, that's something that's really, really a,

27:38

that is a motivator. Right. So Bianca

27:40

jump in here. What do you think?

27:42

Yeah. Motivators. Yeah. This piece around motivation.

27:45

Tell a quick little story. About two

27:47

years ago, I was, we were doing

27:49

some hiring. And one of our final

27:52

candidates was a Gen And

27:54

there's this question I

27:56

always like to

27:58

ask, know, I tell

28:01

me about your dream

28:03

job. you know, tell me I

28:05

asked this question, and he I

28:07

ask this I don't dream of

28:09

and they say, I don't dream my gosh!

28:11

Oh my gosh. And you

28:14

know what? They were higher. Because this

28:16

is what we talk is what we

28:18

talk about right? So for right? So

28:20

for me, as someone who has

28:22

been, you know, taught that

28:24

my work is in my productivity

28:26

my my dreams need to be

28:28

constricted like what will I do

28:30

and provide for others? others. I've

28:32

often like not been able to imagine my

28:34

life without labor, And right? And

28:36

so that to me that to me

28:38

really taught me a little

28:40

bit more about what motivates them.

28:42

I And what I found that

28:44

motivates them is impact, right? right? do I

28:46

see the I see the impact that

28:49

I'm having and voice heard and when

28:51

we think And when we think about

28:53

just the workplace in general, that's

28:55

all people need. need. So as

28:57

we go back to

28:59

like like culture. particular in to

29:01

have an inclusive space, to

29:03

have a space of belonging, of

29:05

we have to think about the

29:07

needs that other people may

29:10

have and try to create structures

29:12

that can support those needs. can

29:14

support know, leaning on niceties on

29:16

a lack of feedback culture harms

29:18

us all. So if we we

29:20

hear from our younger employees, I

29:22

need feedback I I need it in

29:24

a timely way. way. How How we

29:26

we consider? that could be be useful

29:28

for us all, right? So they're

29:30

showing us things about our culture

29:32

and about the way nonprofits are moving

29:35

that might need to be shifted

29:37

to could actually benefit actually benefit

29:39

the full definitely could benefit the

29:41

whole workforce. could benefit the

29:43

But whole workforce, different

29:45

demographic groups to groups

29:47

to exercise exercise different

29:50

muscles. So whenever

29:52

we're thinking thinking about

29:55

feedback. it's not It's

29:57

not just feedback for

29:59

employees, but also feedback from

30:01

employees for leadership for

30:03

for organizational change I

30:06

well. in I think. maybe

30:08

hesitate leadership maybe hesitate of

30:10

receiving that kind of feedback

30:12

about how the organization can

30:14

do better. really But it's

30:16

really important to in that in

30:18

that culture of continuous improvement

30:20

and learning and growing, especially

30:23

if that's what we expect

30:25

of our employees. Can

30:27

I just speak to that a little

30:29

bit? bit? Yeah. I I

30:31

appreciate your name in that, Lemisa

30:33

because it needs to be to be

30:35

reciprocal. I think one of

30:37

the fears leaders, nonprofit

30:40

leaders, executive leaders we haven't if we

30:42

haven't taken the time to perspective

30:44

take. If you don't know what

30:46

my full workload entails, if you if

30:48

you don't understand the things that

30:50

were here before you, and that we're that

30:52

we're trying to already adjust about

30:55

the culture. it feels really feels really

30:57

scary want to to want to get that

30:59

feedback, particularly person of you are a

31:01

person of color or someone from a

31:03

marginalized community has has just gotten into

31:05

that seat. Because so many of

31:07

us, for so long we're taught, if

31:10

you make one mistake, you're out. You

31:12

gotta be twice as good. good. so

31:14

to seek out feedback from folks

31:16

who who don't feel like understands our

31:18

experience or we haven't done the perspective

31:20

taking, it really makes it

31:22

more challenging. So I think the root

31:25

of it is being in right relationship right

31:27

relationship with building the trust the

31:29

that we can have the

31:31

feedback exchanges. So

31:33

have a team of about

31:35

15 folks between my coaching

31:37

practice and my membership my membership site

31:40

for and staff leaders of small

31:42

to mid -sized leaders of small to we

31:44

have been on

31:46

a journey to become

31:48

a much more

31:50

culturally intelligent organization. intelligent organization.

31:52

I have 6 ,000

31:54

members of a members

31:57

of a membership with leaders,

31:59

leaders, right, I've that. to be

32:01

a place to be a place of

32:03

belonging for all leaders. who I

32:05

want people who are of different

32:07

backgrounds, who are younger people in

32:09

leadership, leadership, folks of leadership to say,

32:11

I would like to go to Leadership

32:13

Leadership Lab I know I know I'm

32:15

gonna be be there. And so

32:18

we have done a lot of

32:20

work in this regard, but we

32:22

started with our own selves, own right?

32:24

I was like, can we please

32:26

do a survey of the members

32:28

members? the folks that we brought

32:30

in like, like, no. Actually, we're going to start with

32:32

you. with you. We're gonna start with

32:34

you with you. And in in addition to

32:36

building a DEI business case, I

32:38

mean, I am a for -profit

32:40

business, we created a

32:43

a accountability matrix so

32:45

that there is something that is is

32:47

as a bell. as a bell who

32:49

is accountable to whom and

32:51

for what, for what And that

32:53

includes me know the founder

32:55

of the company, of the And

32:57

so you come in, you whether

32:59

you are a Gen X or

33:01

a or a Gen Z

33:03

person, you come in, that's

33:05

one of the first things

33:07

you see the you see how

33:09

you see, organization, how we, how and

33:11

again, it's only 15 people,

33:13

how we expect you to

33:15

hold us accountable and vice

33:17

versa. vice versa. So it is accountability is not a

33:20

or pejorative word, it is

33:22

about is do you actually you

33:24

actually right? you're on the right

33:26

track because you're absolutely right.

33:28

You're absolutely right, Bianca. Many of us

33:31

who have been part of marginalized

33:33

communities of one sort or another, one

33:35

false move and you're cooked. of

33:38

one sort able to, and

33:40

if you cannot create a

33:42

culture And if promotes failing. that

33:45

promotes innovate. innovate.

33:48

Yeah. So in the I In

33:50

to I wanna just spend

33:52

the last part of

33:54

our conversation here. What needs

33:56

to be different, right?

33:59

how How do you this. I'm I'm

34:01

not gonna lie. I have I run

34:03

a for I company And

34:05

I brought in folks

34:07

who have been so valuable

34:10

to us. so Right?

34:12

Not everybody can afford that.

34:14

everybody How do we make

34:16

this different? You know, and right?

34:18

we shift the power dynamics? Like, You

34:20

is that what you, you know, I we

34:22

to myself, let me say, you must

34:24

want the power dynamics to be different

34:26

in some way. Like, why does it

34:28

have to be hierarchical? Right? Like, I'm climbing

34:30

inside inside your head. Maybe you

34:32

should speak for yourself. I think that would be a

34:34

good idea. that would be a

34:36

I'm also thinking about

34:39

Bianca uplifting lived experiences

34:41

and lived experiences

34:43

and us we mean

34:45

by someone being. being

34:47

experienced. What do

34:49

ha, ha. as What do

34:51

we see as qualifications for

34:53

a leadership role? how I

34:56

wonder about how different

34:58

things could be if who are

35:00

members are members of directly

35:02

impacted communities were in

35:04

leadership roles. roles. I think think

35:06

that's That should be like a

35:08

goal of the nonprofit sector is,

35:11

you know, in an ideal world, an ideal

35:13

world. But some of

35:15

our organizations shouldn't need to

35:17

exist, this kind Because this kind of

35:19

advocacy that we provide, hopefully a

35:21

point get to a point where

35:23

that advocacy wouldn't be needed

35:25

because folks would already have everything

35:27

they need to thrive. And

35:29

our systems and structures would be

35:31

built to support that. to And

35:34

I wonder about how,

35:36

as a sector, we can

35:38

move more move more toward power

35:40

and resources to the

35:42

communities our work is about. about. Bianca,

35:45

so you taking notes. note. Yeah, you know, you

35:47

know, you when you first asked the

35:49

question, the first thing that dropped

35:52

in my spirit. my spirit love?

35:54

love. We need need just a

35:56

little bit more and I I don't mean

35:58

it in just the soft cushy know, I

36:00

I it in the accountable way, right? I mean

36:02

I mean it in the way in

36:04

which we really live out our values

36:06

and we are willing to have some

36:09

generative struggle with one another because we

36:11

believe what's on the other side is

36:13

better than where we are, right? So

36:15

we will demonstrate love for one another.

36:17

And when I think about love, I

36:19

think about knowing that we are all

36:21

valuable. all And so I value what you

36:23

have to say. You are worth me

36:26

listening to. to. You're worth being supported. So

36:28

not only only having these transactions. relationships

36:30

within the workplace but seeing each

36:32

other as full human beings

36:34

that have something to contribute really

36:36

really working to make our decisions

36:39

from a place that reflects

36:41

that. will And I will also

36:43

say and of in and of itself

36:45

is not just inherently

36:47

harmful, I say all right? as Cause I

36:49

say that as someone who does social

36:52

justice, racial justice work, our organization has

36:54

hierarchy. And what I do think I

36:56

do think to your point, Lameesa,

36:58

around the folks who are closest to

37:00

the work, making the decisions, every every

37:02

decision does not have to be

37:04

made by senior leadership, right? so And

37:06

so we, do we, just like we

37:08

talk about accountability, how do

37:10

we stop and say, and say, let's, pan

37:13

out our making. What What decisions are

37:15

we making? Because most decisions have have

37:17

multi layers, right? And how do we get

37:19

voice in to different components of this

37:21

one decision? And let let folks say,

37:23

to get to decide this part

37:25

or you get to decide that

37:27

part because there is something to

37:29

be said about the person who

37:31

is doing the work, being able

37:33

to decide what the work looks

37:35

like in connection to the strategic direction

37:37

and the vision for the organization.

37:39

So I think if we learned

37:41

how to make decisions how to make decisions

37:43

more would also help. that

37:46

would I wonder what I wonder

37:48

what think about about that

37:50

are are of large enough

37:53

to have, and depending depending

37:55

on what the topic is,

37:57

but sort of cross-functional, cross level

37:59

working group. aren't necessarily

38:02

led by the the

38:04

person with the. the quote unquote power. I

38:07

will say that as we

38:09

we have done our

38:11

DEI work, we have

38:13

a working group. and

38:15

we've been changing it

38:17

every year. And I I think probably the

38:19

first year, I led it. And

38:21

then I thought, it. And I don't think

38:24

so. don't And then the second year

38:26

we had it, we had

38:28

people who had we had run

38:30

any kind of, working group at

38:32

all. of a to your

38:34

point, all. Bianca, your we provided them

38:36

with a coach. them

38:38

with a coach. how

38:41

to how to actually run

38:43

a meeting and and make an an

38:45

impactful working group is

38:47

a skill. a skill, right? and

38:49

I have it because I've done

38:51

it a lot a lot, right? But we

38:53

can do these can And so these things.

38:55

And so I just wonder

38:57

what you think about this, but

38:59

you know, my thinking know, my thinking

39:01

is, you can. You can't just

39:03

put somebody in the

39:06

deep end without end without swimies. And

39:08

because that's that's just a right?

39:10

right? can But can you

39:12

create opportunities for leadership and

39:14

and invest? so in this know,

39:16

so in this case, yes, we got a

39:18

coach, but it could be someone else on

39:21

the staff who could provide coaching, right?

39:23

right? There's all kinds of ways

39:25

to do this do this that benefit

39:27

to all parties. So I

39:29

was was wondering what you thought

39:31

about in a a hierarchy, the the idea

39:33

of working groups. And maybe I'll

39:35

start with Bianca on that. that.

39:38

Yeah, I I think working groups are

39:40

a great idea. One of the

39:42

things that I also also to

39:44

remind us is that takes time. that

39:46

does. If we got we got folks I

39:48

won't won't be off on Friday, only

39:50

want to work six hours a

39:52

day. a day. mean, because to create

39:55

these things does take time. that's

39:57

often the the work that

39:59

we do. time time that is then

40:01

not spent on delivering the services, in

40:03

being in alignment with the mission,

40:05

doing the work that the social impact

40:08

organization is meant to do. meant to do.

40:10

So, you know, I I think that. parsing

40:12

out the out the change and being

40:14

very results that is something that would

40:16

help our So we see all the we see

40:18

all the things that we want to

40:20

do differently. But right now, now,

40:22

what is the thing we're gonna focus

40:25

on? on? What is the intended result, how

40:27

know we're getting there, and bringing

40:29

a more a more approach to our

40:31

internal work dynamics, similar to what

40:33

we do externally. You know,

40:35

think that that is one way that

40:37

we can address some of the misuse

40:39

of hierarchy. Yeah, and I and

40:41

let let me see in on this, but

40:43

I I wanted to respond to that

40:46

and say, and say, heard it a million

40:48

times, sometimes you gotta go slow to

40:50

go fast, right? got And the same is

40:52

exactly true, Bianca. the If you wanna

40:54

actually really understand the people who work

40:56

with you, you actually have to invest

40:58

time in knowing them in have to That's

41:00

not something in look at them in you know,

41:02

you look at their resumes and that's

41:04

all I know about them or you

41:06

remember the name of their dog, so

41:09

they ask them about their weekend. their weekend.

41:11

Like it's be deep. deep, right? It's

41:13

it's got to be deep. mean,

41:15

that's why I was really

41:17

thinking about all of like the

41:19

the contextual experience of a experience of

41:21

a Z person is so

41:24

radically different lived the lived experience

41:26

and historical context of the

41:28

person a who's a millennial X.

41:30

X. It's just they're all different.

41:32

but it all takes time. time. So me

41:35

just, I'm gonna give you the

41:37

last word here you the on this idea

41:39

of of. do you create this environment

41:43

environment of trust, mutual

41:45

respect, build leadership

41:47

among younger employees. employees?

41:51

I'm you have all of the all

41:53

the answers. Okay, that

41:55

was a joke, a joke. I

41:57

bet you have some! some. Yeah,

42:00

I definitely can't speak for everybody,

42:02

but I think something that's

42:04

coming to mind for me is

42:06

mind for me safety and the need

42:08

for everyone to feel that,

42:10

especially in a working group, group that

42:12

it, you know, crosses different hierarchies in

42:14

terms of who's in the room.

42:16

the room. If an employee and also

42:18

their supervisor are in that

42:21

working group, that that might, you you know,

42:23

impact how that employee can show

42:25

up or not show up in

42:27

that working group. So it's it's important

42:29

to make sure that, like, again

42:32

going again, going back to culture,

42:34

that a culture of psychological

42:36

safety where folks can show

42:38

up authentically and that can

42:40

also come up. come and

42:42

that can really have benefits for

42:45

the work that organizations do. Also,

42:47

do. Also I relatedly

42:49

unrelatedly I'd be remiss not

42:51

to voice like appreciation for

42:54

Bianca. I think think it's important

42:56

for listeners to know that

42:58

we're not strangers and that

43:00

we are like friends and

43:02

she's been such like an

43:04

important mentor in my own

43:06

journey. in my own I wish that

43:09

we senior leaders in the

43:11

sector like more like Bianca. She

43:13

is very responsive, which maybe

43:15

you wouldn't expect from a

43:17

co but that's but that's something

43:19

that I think Gen Z folks would

43:21

appreciate is just people making time

43:23

for them. them. You know, if I'm ever

43:25

in a senior leadership role, I

43:27

don't want to ever be inaccessible. Like

43:29

Like I want to have enough time

43:31

to reply to an email, an you

43:33

know, you know, and and Bianca has done

43:35

that for me. She's always been responsive.

43:37

responsive. And whenever she's been in

43:40

the in the which is where I'm

43:42

based, where I'm always makes time

43:44

to like time up with me. with

43:46

me. And invites me to different

43:48

gatherings and things she's a part

43:51

of, a which is really helpful

43:53

from a networking well. as well. And

43:55

just like, you know, know, opening up

43:57

doors to different connections and

43:59

not like, and just being

44:01

as supportive as possible. So I

44:03

just wanted to like voice gratitude. like

44:05

voice for her for her since think she

44:08

can be a real model for

44:10

other folks. Thank you so you

44:12

so much, That That means a lot.

44:14

And I know it takes courage to

44:16

reach out. yourself, I know it takes courage

44:18

to advocate for yourself, ask for what

44:20

you need. And so I'm glad that we've

44:22

been able to build that relationship because

44:25

we gotta support one another and we have

44:27

to support the next generation of leaders. There's

44:30

so much so rich here

44:32

in this conversation we've just

44:34

had. we've me, this is

44:36

my podcast. I get to kind

44:38

of decide what I think is in

44:40

your heads I think is in leaders. as I

44:42

try to curl into your heads

44:44

and think, to what should they be

44:46

thinking? What are they thinking about? And

44:48

sometimes I think, what should they

44:50

be thinking about? Today it sort of a

44:52

what should we be thinking about?

44:54

And we should be thinking about about

44:57

age as an asset. right? In the

44:59

same In the same way that

45:01

different abilities are an asset. asset, right?

45:03

And I just think we are

45:05

totally missing the boat on this. on

45:07

Totally missing the boat. If you

45:09

just If the last 40 minutes

45:12

listening to minutes you know you're

45:14

missing the boat. missing the boat.

45:16

If you bucket somebody in the

45:18

Gen Z category in a

45:20

certain way way that is pejorative,

45:22

shame on you. you. Shame

45:25

on you. you. It is all

45:27

of the differences that

45:29

make us stronger. We

45:31

all know that to be true.

45:33

be And many of us actually

45:35

work of hell every single day

45:37

in organizations that in us. to

45:39

that truth. that speak

45:42

to that truth, right? And

45:44

so think about your DEA

45:46

work your DEI work, and

45:48

think about whether you really are

45:51

factoring an age. that's

45:53

that's important. Think

45:55

about the time time it

45:58

takes to understand. and

46:00

people they they come

46:02

from, their lived experience, the

46:04

historical context in which they

46:07

have lived up to the point

46:09

they up to the point of

46:11

them in three

46:13

dimensions. in three dimensions. to them, to

46:15

provide opportunities for people to

46:17

lead, for people to lead. mentors, whether

46:19

they're outside the organization or

46:21

inside the organization, because you

46:24

just heard Lameesa talk about

46:26

Bianca, heard and I guarantee

46:28

you, Bianca gets as much

46:30

as she gives from that

46:32

relationship, as she gives And she's nodding

46:34

emphatically, and she's nodding emphatically

46:36

yes are the things you need to be

46:38

thinking about need to be thinking they take time. yes

46:41

they take time they do they are worth

46:43

every second. they're worth

46:45

every second from as it relates to

46:47

the psychological safety of the people

46:49

who work for you, the respect

46:51

you grant them, and the kind

46:53

of impact they will have they will

46:55

terms of how motivated they are

46:57

to be a part of your

47:00

work. work. So that said, I just I

47:02

say, want to say, thank you so

47:04

much for representing the entire, Z

47:06

demographic on my podcast today.

47:09

Yeah, great job, great job. I hope,

47:11

hope, yeah, that's a big responsibility.

47:13

So I hope my hope my peers

47:15

would resonate with what I shared

47:17

just just really grateful to be

47:19

in conversation with you both. both.

47:22

Thank you, Lomisa. And your work work covered

47:24

such a span of things. I

47:26

didn't know I didn't know you

47:28

were going to get such a

47:30

big Valentine from LaMisa, but

47:33

it sounds more than rightfully

47:35

deserved. And your insights today

47:37

were very, very thought -provoking

47:39

and inspiring as well. So

47:41

thank you so much for

47:43

joining us. us. Yes, thank you

47:45

both. It was a great conversation. Agreed.

47:48

So for for those of you who are listening,

47:50

you you can listen again if you want want,

47:52

you might actually have to listen to this

47:54

twice. In the meantime. In the Thank

47:56

you for your work. for Take good

47:58

care of yourselves. and the

48:00

people you work with with, and I hope to

48:02

see to to see you next time. Take good care.

48:04

care. Thanks so much for spending

48:07

much for spending time with me today. you

48:09

I hope you found the conversation valuable

48:11

as you navigate the messy world. messy world

48:13

of Check out Check

48:15

other resources resources at Joan Gehry.com.

48:18

Hope you find them helpful

48:20

too. Lastly, thank you. for

48:22

the work you do to repair the world.

48:24

in ways large and small. I'll see

48:26

you next time.