0:01

So, my opinions are changing opinions

0:03

are changing, should and

0:05

I you know. I think I

0:07

should let you know you're brought think

0:09

it's time that you're brought into

0:11

the loop opinions because it makes

0:13

it makes me a hypocrite. it

0:16

makes me a it makes me

0:18

a hypocrite, I've been slow

0:20

to reveal these these changed opinions, I think.

0:22

I think. knows? I'm sick by the who

0:24

knows. I'm sick by the way. home. I'm

0:26

I just got home. I'm like still

0:28

drunk on quill and I'm... we've been

0:30

a journey. It's been a ride it's been

0:32

a ride folks it's good to

0:34

be back home, back home to

0:36

say the least. all right so somebody

0:38

somebody tweeted some

0:41

shit piece about Matthew Perry

0:43

the framework motion

0:46

about popular in the the

0:48

framework motion guy, he really popular in

0:50

the React world. He left Framer

0:52

and he's just doing his own

0:54

thing and the library's called motion and

0:56

it's it's gonna be Vanilla JavaScript as well

0:58

well as React. So frame, there was one, so

1:00

I've been really excited about this

1:02

project for a long time because for

1:04

a people adore framer, people adore keep wanting

1:06

to say I keep want to plenty of

1:08

designers and devs that I've talked

1:10

to that heard I've I can't leave

1:12

React, have you'd have to pry

1:14

Framer from my cold dead hands,

1:16

you know? to pry framer love it. cold

1:18

Seems really awesome. know? They love it. Seems

1:20

really awesome. So the concept concept of

1:22

it it available outside of vanilla vanilla

1:25

JavaScript is really appealing to me.

1:27

They so motion one has 1 has existed

1:29

for a long time, but it's

1:31

pretty half -baked. It's just not full

1:33

not full-fledged motion. There's so many things

1:35

that it doesn't do or it

1:37

do do or doesn't do ergonomically and But so I think this

1:40

I haven't actually looked at any of

1:42

this stuff. This is just as much as I've

1:44

been following the project. the project Matt Perry a bit

1:46

ago bit ago announced that he's going

1:48

independent and he's going to invest in to

1:50

invest sent him a congratulatory him a like

1:52

I'm so stoked for like I'm stuff to

1:54

come to this stuff to he's like coming J.S. and

1:56

he's get ready, you know, so I'm

1:59

excited you know so I'm excited. So I guess he's

2:01

independent in one of the monetization

2:03

strategies He's trying is like a

2:05

motion plus membership You get access

2:07

to discord a few other things

2:09

and I think that's a paywalled

2:11

section of the docks I don't

2:13

even know if that's accurate, but

2:16

whatever somebody and shout out to

2:18

this person who I think listens

2:20

to this podcast Somebody who I

2:22

enjoy As a person and whatever

2:24

but this person is opinionated and

2:26

they throw out an opinion I

2:28

happen to disagree with it, but

2:30

whatever throughout an opinion about this

2:32

being like ridiculous what we're paywalling

2:34

docs now, you know, and like

2:36

so the the Twitter verse loved

2:39

it. It's just like what? No

2:41

way. This is so stupid. And

2:43

it's just crazy because I saw

2:45

this yesterday or whatever and I

2:47

thought to myself immediately. It's like,

2:49

oh, this is that thing I

2:51

feel again or I go, oh,

2:53

the distance between a maintainer and

2:55

a consumer. It's

2:58

like if you're if you've been

3:00

in open source like in it,

3:02

you know Like like had it

3:04

be your full-time job kind of

3:06

in it You have a different

3:08

perspective than everybody else You think

3:10

the least somebody could do the

3:12

very least you could do is

3:15

give me $300. That's the very

3:17

least you could do is give

3:19

me $300. That's the very least

3:21

you could do But everyone else

3:23

thinks... Why would you do this?

3:25

This is so stupid. You're so

3:27

stupid. Why would you do it?

3:29

Why would you pay all the

3:31

document? Nobody does this. Are you

3:33

trying to just ruin the success

3:35

of this? Are you trying to

3:37

just ruin the success of your

3:40

project? Like, it's like, if you

3:42

even cared about your project, you

3:44

would give it away for free,

3:46

so everybody would love it. So

3:48

I thought his response was actually

3:50

pretty thoughtful. It was non-defensive, and

3:52

it was great. You're missing. or

3:54

like gaining more consumers or whatever.

3:56

That's not... true. I'm to

3:58

optimize for income.

4:00

income. trying to

4:02

figure out income out

4:05

income, not already has adoption.

4:07

You know, he's got so

4:09

many eyeballs know, he's got so many eyeballs.

4:11

He's income. think this is a natural

4:14

path. I think that this is

4:16

where open I is good, actually, is

4:18

because a natural can get on stage for

4:20

free, kind of. You don't have,

4:22

like it's is to get on stage

4:24

because you for you don't... you're not charging for

4:26

something, so it's easier for it

4:28

to get for it to get I don't know,

4:30

it's an easy end. I don't know,

4:32

it's an easy in. has been very useful

4:34

to me in that way, very useful that in

4:37

that way, in You can just make a

4:39

project and people start using it and

4:41

contributing to it and it's all happy. to

4:43

it, and it's it's good vibes, it's nice,

4:45

it's fun. it's nice, I mean, there's some dicks

4:47

even in the beginning, but whatever, in the

4:49

and I'm thankful for it because it put

4:51

me on the map. because But once you're

4:53

on the map, map. and once you've invested

4:55

enough into it, you realize into it is

4:57

the most thankless job in the world,

4:59

and there's all sorts of problems that come

5:02

with it. Like the fact that you

5:04

don't actually own the thing that you think

5:06

you own. come with it like the don't own it,

5:08

don't you know? own the thing that

5:10

you think you own you don't you own

5:12

this this project because you

5:14

built it because you built it

5:16

up. dreamt it You've invested years

5:18

into it. You think it's

5:20

your project. your project And then you

5:22

get get reminded that it's not

5:24

not, you don't always have that

5:26

have that that it's not yours.

5:28

It feels like yours. you get

5:30

mad like yours, so you get mad. People, people do

5:32

all sorts of things but it's

5:35

not yours people can not yours. it up

5:37

they can it up, they it they can

5:39

do whatever they want to do

5:41

to it whatever they want to do to you're on

5:43

the hook for hook for will get

5:45

blamed You will don't own

5:47

it, You you know, this is

5:50

it. stupid. is what's stupid. stupid stupid is...

5:52

People, this is

5:54

why why just sucks.

5:56

just sucks. People, people you

5:59

you to... People act as if

6:01

you own it when there's problems. People

6:04

act as if it's not yours

6:06

when they want to take it

6:08

or when they want to benefit

6:10

from it or leech off of

6:13

it or anything like that. When

6:15

people want to use your project

6:17

for their own personal gain, you

6:19

don't own the project. It's MIT

6:21

licensed, anybody can use it. But

6:23

when it comes to bugs, when

6:26

it comes to features, when it

6:28

comes to all of those things,

6:30

it's your project and criticism. You're

6:32

on the hook. There's sort of

6:34

this implicit expectation. One

6:37

of the many reasons open source is

6:39

flawed. And

6:41

I don't know that it's a flawed

6:43

model, but I know that it's

6:45

a flawed experience because I've had it.

6:49

And I can tell you it's flawed.

6:51

I can tell you the experience

6:53

is flawed. So the thing that is

6:55

changing for me is I don't

6:57

care much. I

7:00

don't care to make things

7:02

open source like I used

7:04

to. It used to be

7:06

what you did with software.

7:08

And now I'd rather even

7:10

keep it to myself than

7:12

open source it because of

7:14

all of these reasons, which

7:17

has forced me to basically

7:19

hear. So here's the chain.

7:21

I don't know how to

7:23

describe all these changes, but

7:25

you know, I've talked on

7:27

here plenty. Me

7:29

and Aaron had that whole hour long

7:31

discussion about wrapping up open source ethics and

7:33

stuff. I've talked about this stuff forever.

7:35

Well, first let me say open source monetization

7:38

is so hard. And that's what Matt's

7:40

trying to do. And I basically decided it

7:42

doesn't work. The only things that work

7:44

for me are selling products around the open

7:46

source that basically anybody else could sell.

7:48

I just have the best platform to sell

7:50

it because I already have the documentation

7:52

page or whatever, you know. But

7:56

yeah, so monetization is

7:59

broken. And there's an

8:01

alternate universe where my

8:03

thing is open source

8:05

monetization. I wanted to

8:08

start a thing, whatever

8:10

called sponsor or

8:12

sponsor kid or something like syrup,

8:14

I don't know. And I got an

8:16

email list going, like whatever, I

8:19

have contacts at GitHub, I'm kind of

8:21

like one of the most qualified

8:23

people to do this, or at least

8:25

one of them. One of the

8:27

people who really would be in like

8:29

well positioned to like be the open

8:31

source monetization guy, know, made hundred can

8:33

get a sponsors in a year, made

8:35

a million on GitHub sponsors, Like, you

8:37

know, people want to interview me to

8:39

talk about this stuff. Like

8:41

I have a bunch of opinions on it, but

8:43

here's the thing now, My

8:46

opinion is, it's really

8:48

broken and doesn't work. And

8:51

there have been people who've reached out

8:53

to me doing startup similar to what

8:55

I wanted to do to help like

8:57

source maintainers fund their work and whatever.

8:59

And it's just, it's a small group

9:01

of people and it's like, you're not

9:03

gonna win the corporations you can try,

9:05

you're not going to. It just doesn't

9:07

work, you know? I think it just

9:09

has to kind of stay what it is. But

9:12

here's the thing that changed my life.

9:14

The thing that changed my life is

9:16

realizing that, and this is funny, you

9:18

saw me realize this. This was on

9:21

the podcast with Aaron, where we're kind

9:23

of debating back and forth. And I'm

9:25

saying like, I wish there was a

9:27

way that I could give this software

9:29

away for free. but still

9:31

own it. you know? there,

9:33

there be a way. that

9:36

what I realized was the whole point of what I was

9:38

trying to do, is all I want to do. I

9:41

want all the benefits

9:44

of open contribution, of

9:46

open source, all

9:48

those benefits that this thing is on GitHub,

9:50

you can use it for free. You

9:53

can Uh, you know,

9:55

make pull requests and whatever. but

9:59

You cannot - or it and call it something else. else,

10:01

you wrap it up into another

10:03

library that's a thin layer on top

10:06

of it market your thing thing. I don't

10:08

want to don't wanna be pros to tip

10:10

tap, know? That's the thing. I just want

10:12

a license the thing. no, if I just

10:14

want a license that says, no, if you

10:16

want to use the really complicated piece

10:18

of technology that I spent years and years

10:20

on, mirror, in this case, me, but you That's

10:22

not me, but pros guy who wrote Prozmir. want

10:24

to be able to I was him, I want

10:26

to be able to say, to say. Please use the

10:28

software for free. free. Enjoy it.

10:31

But but don't make a tip tip tap.

10:33

Don't make a make a thin wrapper

10:35

on the thing. thing. And add

10:37

monetization around it around

10:39

it. If you're If you're going

10:41

to do that, meet me. me mono

10:43

Meet me Write the hard thing the

10:46

hard thing yourself. Write Write

10:48

a parser, write a renderer,

10:50

do it all with editable. Make a

10:52

Make a plug -in system.

10:54

Make it efficient. Make it work on

10:56

every platform. Then come talk to me. Then

10:58

come compete with me. Don't just

11:00

take everything I've done take then compete

11:02

with me. done and And this is

11:05

crazy, he actually has. And this is I

11:07

He actually you guys that I told you guys

11:09

that I used under the hood for hood

11:11

for the Rich Text Editor in Flux. and I I

11:13

didn't even know that pros under it

11:15

until I started really working with

11:17

TipTap really working with of the heavy

11:20

lifting is ProzMir and I've started the

11:22

heavy lifting is course there's a lot

11:24

of code in TipTap, source diving and of

11:26

course there's a real hard stuff is tap, but

11:28

I could hard could skip the tip -tap

11:30

part I if I did it again, I

11:32

would tap part and if I did it again I so

11:34

then I went to like to like. like a

11:36

you know, put your your money where your mouth

11:38

is, Caleb. You're using this in a

11:40

project and you're charging for it. in a So

11:42

go give and I gave, I donated $1

11:44

,000 to the developer of I gave I Come

11:47

to find out later. to I, I'm like

11:49

looking around mirror come to or something and he's

11:51

got a thing that says, around his have an

11:53

ethical obligation. he's got a thing that says you

11:55

a social obligation. obligation to

11:57

or a social obligation to pay

11:59

if you to pay me if you use

12:01

this. And he's got a page and

12:03

it explains that's like, you are technically

12:05

allowed to use this legally, but socially

12:08

you are not allowed to use this

12:10

without paying me. You're not, you know,

12:12

and he is like different, it's just

12:14

got a whole write-up about it. And

12:16

it's just got a whole write-up about

12:18

it. And it's like, oh, this is

12:20

cool. And he explains like his journey

12:23

of open source and how thankless it

12:25

and then we're good, you know. I

12:27

don't envy his position and he, so

12:29

the thing, yeah, okay, what am I

12:31

saying here? What I'm trying to say

12:33

is, it took me that whole podcast

12:35

with Aaron to realize that what I

12:37

actually want is to just be able

12:40

to give software away for free but

12:42

still own it in the sense that

12:44

you can't wrap it up and, you

12:46

know, build your own thing on top

12:48

of it. And the only way to

12:50

do that, I forget who I was

12:52

talking to that. that we said and

12:54

maybe it was there and I don't

12:57

know but somebody was like you have

12:59

to charge for it I think it

13:01

was Ian it's like everything you want

13:03

you get if you charge money for

13:05

it and it's crazy that that is

13:07

the case so I went okay I'll

13:09

do it so I charged for flux

13:11

and the JavaScript library underneath it particularly

13:14

is what I wanted to open source

13:16

so I yeah I was like all

13:18

right well I guess I guess there's

13:20

no way. If you're not going to

13:22

give me away, if nobody's going to,

13:24

you know, like, like, if nobody cares,

13:26

which nobody cares, nobody's like reaching out

13:29

to me going, we should really figure

13:31

out a new open source license that

13:33

allows for this. Like, no, it's mostly

13:35

people just saying, implying that I'm diluted

13:37

and that I have some like weird

13:39

holdover like land grabby crap. But that

13:41

this is the crazy thing. If you

13:43

just charge for software, nobody thinks that

13:46

way, nobody thinks that way. everybody gets

13:48

it they go oh yeah well yeah

13:50

I mean you know I paid for

13:52

it I can't just steal it you

13:54

know well yeah you know

13:56

I paid for it

13:58

like well within your

14:00

rights to protect

14:03

it to You know, it you know it's so

14:05

weird all my so weird. All my problems

14:07

went away. whole pile of new got a whole

14:09

pile of new heard you've heard about those, most of

14:11

most of my problems in this regard went away

14:13

as soon as I charged for software. I'm

14:15

no longer no longer afraid that somebody will

14:17

take my hard work and build on top

14:19

of it. you know, they might take some

14:22

of my ideas or whatever, but that's

14:24

just competition. competition but they're not gonna they they

14:26

can't just take the JavaScript and

14:28

use it, you know? it you know In

14:31

the the same way that a tap is

14:33

using pros mirror, know? know, they would have to now

14:35

would have to now write the prose

14:37

mirror themselves, and then because they have to

14:39

do that, they would have a much

14:41

harder time competing with the prose mirror, you

14:43

know? you know. So anyway, it feels kind feels kind of

14:45

nice. like, like, is what you do. You This is what

14:47

you do. You charge for stuff that you you put

14:49

a lot of because you put a lot of work into it. get

14:52

to And now you get to basically

14:54

own that competitive edge. I'm so used to

14:56

just to to completely

14:58

forfeit. advantage you have. the only advantage you

15:00

have. you have. you know, and surrendering

15:02

surrendering it to somebody else who is who's

15:04

to let you maintain it. maintain

15:06

it, and know, just you know, it

15:09

up. it up, wrap it it up. Don't, you

15:11

know. some some marketing

15:13

angle. and make make money on it. here's

15:15

the thing where my opinion has changed is

15:17

has if you can't beat him, join him. maybe

15:19

like, is maybe this is just a lesson that I

15:21

need to learn. learn. It's that's like, is is

15:23

the way the world is. The MIT the

15:25

MIT license is on there, and it

15:27

means what it means. means. you can take it

15:29

it and you can charge money on top

15:32

of it. on It's almost like, it. if you're

15:34

gonna hold me to this reality, I'm

15:36

gonna embrace it, to know? reality, I'm gonna I don't

15:38

know, I'm not know, just I people up,

15:40

but it is true. It's to just like wrap

15:42

people up, but are the rules

15:44

of the road. well, those are the rules of the

15:46

road. You know, I've given plenty

15:48

to open to open I shouldn't feel bad

15:50

about. feel bad know, I don't

15:52

know, using it, so. it. So. Yeah, I mean

15:54

I mean, even just talking right now, I'm like,

15:56

I'm like, well, just go using it, you know? it, you

15:59

know, But it is. is. like well if you can't

16:01

beat beat him join him it's MIT license I don't know yeah

16:03

don't know even know I thought I was gonna I don't

16:05

even know I thought I was gonna

16:07

come on here and proclaim the fact

16:09

that like I've completely changed my opinions

16:11

but I haven't changed the way I

16:13

feel about that stuff and I know

16:15

what it feels to be on the

16:17

other end and it doesn't feel great

16:19

to be on the other end and it has

16:21

changed is I have realized

16:23

that you can charge for

16:25

software that you can charge for it changes

16:28

everything it changes everything I

16:30

don't know know. I'm

16:32

losing the losing the point I'll

16:34

see you.