0:01

When I did speak out, it was important

0:04

to me because I knew that that was a thing that

0:06

was holding me back from living

0:08

my life to the fullest.

0:11

Welcome to off the Cup, my personal

0:13

anti anxiety antidote. You

0:16

know, I talk a lot on this podcast

0:18

about mental health, and that's for

0:20

you, that's for listeners primarily. I

0:23

believe firmly that the more we talk about mental health,

0:25

the easier it is to talk about mental health. And

0:27

that's the point for me this pod. While

0:30

it's not a mental health podcast per se,

0:32

it's an interview show where we

0:35

create a space for mental health

0:37

to come up naturally because that's.

0:40

What I want.

0:40

I wanted to come up naturally in conversation and

0:43

not be something where like can I bring this up?

0:44

Can I talk about this?

0:46

And so I love giving my guests and my listeners

0:48

those opportunities, but listen, I'll

0:51

be very clear.

0:52

It is also for me. My life

0:54

in the.

0:55

News is taxing. The

0:57

news is triggering for me, which is really

1:00

convenient. It's my job and

1:03

it can feel impossible to get a break from

1:05

it because the news, the news will bombard

1:08

you. I feel like it's

1:10

like Isla Fisher in Wedding crashers.

1:12

She's like, I'll find you. Seriously,

1:16

that is how it feels sometimes. So this

1:18

pod Off the Cup is truly a gift to me as

1:20

well. I love it so much. Getting

1:22

to talk to interesting people about their lives, about

1:24

their challenges, share funny stories.

1:27

It is awesome.

1:28

So thank you for tuning in, And

1:31

today I have one of those awesome,

1:33

interesting, talented, brave

1:36

guests. He's an actor and screenwriter

1:38

with a very long career in television

1:40

and film, from How to Make an American

1:42

Quilt to That Thing You Do Houdiniteray

1:45

Donovan, Legends of Tomorrow

1:48

to the series Blue Ridge.

1:49

Now it's Jonathan Shack.

1:51

Welcome to Off the Cup.

1:53

Well, thank you for having me.

1:55

Thank you for doing this. I'm really excited

1:57

for this conversation well.

1:59

After that lead, and I'm very very curious

2:01

to see if I can't be of service to you.

2:03

You're gonna be, You're gonna be.

2:05

I just did one yesterday, and I'm reminded

2:07

of this all the time. When you just

2:09

talk about mental health sort of like naturally and normally

2:13

things come up. And I

2:15

learned something new about my

2:17

own mental health from someone else

2:19

yesterday, just in conversation. So

2:22

when you open this door, magical things can happen.

2:24

So we'll get into it. We will get there. But first,

2:27

I love that thing you do so much.

2:30

I love it so much. It is a perfect

2:32

movie. You've done so much.

2:34

But is that what most people would know

2:36

you from?

2:37

Absolutely? Yeah, you think.

2:39

Was it a big turning point for you in your career?

2:41

You know, at the time it was not that big

2:44

of a deal. It didn't wasn't

2:46

number one at the box office. People

2:48

love the movie over time.

2:51

It's still that movie that just resonates

2:54

with people and they watch it all over and over again.

2:57

Yes, yes, we do, and every

2:59

single day.

2:59

So one stops me and tells me how much I love the movie.

3:02

Go, can I take a picture with you? I love Jimmy and that

3:04

thing you do well.

3:05

I use very frequently in

3:07

my text conversations the.

3:09

Meme of I quit, I

3:11

quit, I quit.

3:13

Yeah, I use it all the time because, like

3:15

when I'm done with something, it's just the

3:17

perfect meme to send.

3:19

Did you when you got that role? Did you sing or play

3:21

an instrument?

3:23

No? I didn't. When I met

3:25

with when I auditioned for Tom, he

3:28

told me after the auditions like, you

3:30

know, I love your acting, That's

3:33

all I care about. But we're going to teach you how

3:35

to play the guitar and sing. But

3:37

we already have somebody for the voice

3:40

for the vocals. Yes.

3:42

Did Steve Zon know how to play guitar.

3:45

Yeah, he's very He was a very

3:47

good guitar player. He picked a lot and

3:49

yeah to play. He was in a

3:51

band. He was like eighteen years old

3:54

slapping the bass. Yeah. Ever,

3:56

Scott had to learn from scratch, had.

3:58

To learn Tom had to learn the drum.

4:00

Yeah, uh huh.

4:01

But that must have been so fun. Was it like band camp?

4:04

Exactly? That's exactly with great

4:07

teachers. One

4:09

thing, Gary Getsman, who he

4:12

worked. He made a lot of documentaries

4:15

on music and he was in the music

4:18

industry. He worked with Jonathan Demi.

4:20

Oh yeah.

4:20

So he was instrumental in getting

4:23

us to be one point with our chords.

4:25

He said, I want I'm gonna I'm going to

4:28

cut to whatever is right, so if you're

4:30

on the right chord, it'll be in the movie.

4:32

So they would we

4:35

would do takes after takes, make sure everyone was

4:37

playing the song and if you heard it,

4:39

it would get by. This

4:42

wasn't good enough.

4:43

I think it's funny because the

4:45

song plays a lot. That thing you do

4:47

plays a lot during the movie, but when you're in

4:49

the movie, you don't feel bored

4:52

by it because it builds.

4:54

It's almost like Bolero,

4:56

you know, it builds over the course of You

4:59

get a snippet, then it it gets a little better, then

5:01

it gets more refined, and by the end you're seeing

5:03

the real version and you're.

5:04

Like, oh, good, yeah, you've

5:06

I mean not everyone gets that, but directors

5:08

have talked to me about like movies

5:10

that they made where they were like, you know, I

5:13

looked, I studied that thing you do because of

5:15

that very thing, and the very beginning it's

5:17

very little, it's rough, and then you get a little

5:19

bit better, you get a little bit better, and it gets

5:21

more refined. And they never

5:24

played the you know one section

5:26

too many times.

5:27

Yeah, it's it's really clever the way it

5:29

un folds over the course of the

5:31

movie.

5:32

How did the role come to you? How did you get that audition?

5:35

I had a great agent, her

5:37

name was Eileen Feldman, and

5:41

I had done American Quilt, So yeah,

5:43

it was a torture's audition

5:46

process and I won that role. So

5:49

the casting director knew me from that

5:51

and they were pretty high on me. But that

5:54

audition, there is a line of people.

5:56

Like who else that people would know

5:59

was up for that role.

6:00

I remember seeing anyone that I knew

6:02

at the time, but it was everybody,

6:05

everybody, all of them.

6:06

Yep, your character Jimmy was such a jerk,

6:08

but also part of me really

6:11

identified with him, like these guys

6:13

should take it as seriously as Jimmy

6:16

is taking it.

6:17

Do you feel like James was

6:19

misunderstood?

6:21

Absolutely?

6:22

Yeah, he did.

6:24

What a great chance in life, you

6:26

know, had this great opportunity and we'll let

6:28

it go and this one's.

6:29

Going to Vegas and this one's joining the Marines.

6:32

He's serious about the music.

6:34

And you know, over time, I've had Rascal

6:37

Flats, I've had Busfalo's Springfield

6:39

like they were like we have. I

6:42

was Jimmy, you know, in the band, and

6:44

it's amazing understood like I was.

6:46

I didn't mean to be a jerk, but I was so into

6:49

our work and if I wasn't like that, we would

6:51

never have been successful.

6:52

Yes, alone

6:54

in his principles for a reason.

6:56

You were alone in your principles because you believed

6:59

in your talent. You knew you had to make

7:02

more music, and these guys kind of just wanted

7:04

to have fun, you know.

7:05

Billy Zabkov got to

7:07

look at his character differently in

7:10

Cobra Kai, and I talked to the guys

7:12

that made Cobra Kai about, you know, doing

7:14

the same thing with Jimmy because he's so misunderstood.

7:18

It's brilliant.

7:21

Oh my god, I love that. You

7:23

know, in the movie, a lot of the big crowds

7:26

looked to me like, Cgi, Yeah,

7:29

did you ever play in front of a real big audience?

7:32

Yes, you did? Which one was that?

7:34

Was that? In come with the scene with Kevin

7:36

Pollock when Steve was.

7:38

Singing come on Pretty Babe.

7:40

Oh yeah, Oh so that was in front of a real audience

7:42

and it was electric.

7:43

We had so much fun that day. It was a magical.

7:46

Oh that's amazing.

7:47

What they would do is like for the big fair

7:50

scene, they would have all these extras

7:52

for this one section, and then they move all the extras

7:54

to this section.

7:57

And then they just put it together.

7:58

Yeah, that's amazing, Right, that's

8:00

how they used to do it. And you know all this stuff

8:03

with Ai, I'm like, man, I would just put like fake

8:05

people throughout the whole thing and make it a lot easier,

8:07

right.

8:07

Yeah, ah, that's amazing. In

8:10

twenty twenty one, Eerie PA hosted

8:13

a Wonders Night where you

8:15

and Tom and Steve Zon reunited. How

8:17

fun was that?

8:18

It was magic? I mean we

8:21

had a line going around the stadium that

8:23

people had brought, you know, merchandise

8:25

from that thing you do for us to sign. And

8:28

everyone loved the movie, Like there

8:30

are fans in the movie, and people flew

8:32

from California, you know, someone

8:35

came from Alabama. It was like it

8:37

was just a and there were very little press,

8:40

but we it was so much fun.

8:43

I'm sure not every movie gets

8:45

a chance to like reunite. I

8:47

mean without a sequel, you

8:49

guys, you guys have that fan base

8:51

that just wants to keep reconnecting with it.

8:53

And it's it's interesting because it played on

8:55

television. I don't know exactly

8:58

what happened. It wasn't a box office success as

9:01

that. And Tom has been very vocal about

9:03

the critics.

9:04

Yeah, he has repeat

9:07

what he said, Yeah, it's dirty, and

9:10

I'm like, go Tom, Yeah,

9:13

and they were, you know, there no one like embraced

9:15

him because he was just so successful at the time, and

9:18

they didn't really see the magic

9:20

in it at the time.

9:21

And over and Gary gets men

9:23

and Tom. Gary just looked at his partner

9:25

and I was like, I'm going to show the Worldless movie

9:28

over and over and over again

9:30

so they can see the magic that was made.

9:33

And I think new audiences, younger

9:35

audience have got to really experience it. So

9:38

many people come to me like, I'm a musician,

9:40

they say, and it's because of that thing you do.

9:42

Stop so many I can't

9:44

even count on, you know, so many people.

9:47

That must be so fulfilling and rewarding.

9:49

Well, I'm not a musician, but I'm just glad

9:51

that they pursued their dreams.

9:53

Yeah, but that's incredible.

9:54

Just to be an inspiration to someone that's

9:57

that's awesome.

9:57

Well, the movie is perfect. It is magic,

10:00

And I want to talk about the rest of your career. But first,

10:04

what kind of kid were you?

10:05

I was a little guy, always

10:08

smaller than everybody, always trying to compensate

10:11

for my size. Okay, okay,

10:14

I see they would say, very feisty.

10:16

Okay, were you funny? Were you did you

10:18

were you looking for attention?

10:22

Were you performative?

10:24

I wasn't performative, that's for sure. Okay,

10:27

I was an artist. I loved drawing and painting.

10:29

Okay, were you quiet?

10:31

They would say. I was quiet until I

10:34

got into like sports or something like that, and it

10:36

wasn't.

10:36

What sports did you get into?

10:39

Well, I got cut from every team I've ever had,

10:42

all the sports that I loved. They wouldn't let me play football

10:44

because I was only ninety eight pounds in high school.

10:46

Yeah, but I played baseball.

10:48

They cut me in baseball because it was too tiny.

10:51

And then I started. I was playing lacrosse ever since I was

10:53

young, and so I really started playing more lacrosse and

10:55

I made the lacrosse team and then it became really

10:57

good lacrosse. Okay,

11:00

wrestled. I was a ninety pound wrestler.

11:02

This was Edgewood High School.

11:04

Yeah, Edgewood High School? Was it so

11:07

that? No, I'm just kidding.

11:08

I think I found this wow,

11:10

And I found this.

11:12

Oh my goodness, see a little guy all

11:15

lips At the time.

11:16

I'm holding up Jonathan's high

11:18

school yearbook and yearbook picture for people

11:20

who don't know, because that's what.

11:22

I like to do.

11:22

I like to make people really uncomfortable

11:25

about how much I know about them.

11:28

Good job.

11:30

Yeah, I feel like lacrosse was mandatory in Maryland.

11:33

Yeah, it pretty much was. And you know, my

11:35

son is now playing lacrosse here in Tennessee. That's

11:38

fun. I never thought he would play lacrosse,

11:40

especially See. But we're having

11:42

so much fun.

11:43

Oh that's great.

11:44

Your dad was a cop, yeah, former

11:47

city cop.

11:47

Was he strict?

11:49

Yeah, it was brutal. It's tough,

11:51

tough cop, great human being, tough cop.

11:54

Were you allowed to do stuff that your friends were allowed

11:57

to do?

11:57

I probably wouldn't do them because those just

12:01

respectful of my father. What

12:03

he did, I

12:06

didn't get in much trouble. Yeah. So yeah,

12:08

older than I started the ruining the bell.

12:11

Correct me if I'm wrong. You seem to

12:13

be wearing a bow tie in this picture.

12:15

I know. I was just thinking the same thing, like where did

12:17

we get bow ties? Like? What was that the prom?

12:20

Yeah?

12:20

Bow ties? This is the eighties,

12:23

not the fifties. I want people to

12:25

know you're not that old. So

12:28

when do you decide you want to be an actor?

12:31

That's when my rebellions started to happen.

12:34

My father had My mom

12:36

and my dad broke up when I was a

12:38

junior and I think that

12:41

when that happened, it was a

12:43

tough time for me, and

12:45

I just saw the world differently,

12:48

like it just kind of broke everything,

12:50

and I was able to say, you know what,

12:52

what do I want to do with my life. I'm not going to do what

12:54

everyone else is telling me I should do because it's

12:57

just not fitting me. And

13:00

I started to try different things. I

13:03

listened to what was available,

13:05

and then I

13:08

kept thinking I wanted the always wanted the dance,

13:10

right. I thought I could be a

13:12

dancer. My

13:14

father got me this an

13:18

extra role on the set of

13:20

Hairspray in downtown

13:22

Baltimore, and I too scared and I didn't

13:24

show up. So that holds onto me like I

13:26

didn't do and I kept thinking, I really wanted

13:28

to be a strange Usually people take drama

13:30

classes in high school. It wasn't me

13:34

logical. I didn't do it back then. I

13:36

better do it now. And I took one

13:38

class at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County.

13:41

The teacher was Sam mc ready, and

13:43

I just thought, you know what, I can actually

13:46

do this. I remember

13:48

watching Tom Cruise in a movie

13:50

Top Done. I could

13:52

do that.

13:53

Uh huh, I mean it's

13:55

so out.

13:56

Of the out of the world that I lived in. But I

13:58

just I just thought, and I could do that I'm

14:01

supposed to do. And there's this Richard Mark

14:03

song. If you remember this song, it's

14:05

not like in the eighties wherever

14:08

you go whatever.

14:09

You right here waiting for you. Yes, yeah,

14:12

of course I know it.

14:13

And I know it's a romantic song. But all I kept hearing

14:15

is I have to go somewhere. I have to be

14:17

somewhere, I have to do something. I have a purpose.

14:20

Oh have you told Richard Marks that story?

14:22

I told him at He's

14:25

like, that's amazing, Jonathan, You're not the first person

14:27

to say that to me.

14:28

But I

14:30

know Richard, he's a friend of mine. I have to ask

14:32

him about it. That's amazing.

14:33

I love that.

14:35

Is that Neat? I thought that was so that's great.

14:38

You sit across with the guy that app you,

14:40

you know, break out of the small town.

14:42

Yes, so then you go

14:44

and you study with Roy London.

14:47

Oh yeah, what was that

14:49

like? Well, you know, I

14:51

think that this part of my life is I've

14:54

really been looking at that part of my life.

14:56

And Brad Pittman has been talking about,

14:59

or at least he's mentioned something during his press

15:01

conference about Roy where they asked him

15:04

and it's all over the

15:06

news in my world, and

15:08

he've had the same experience

15:10

that I did. That this man said,

15:12

you want to be an actor, you need

15:14

to know who you are and

15:17

you need to, you know, be open

15:20

to try new things. And

15:22

that basically taught life lessons.

15:25

And those life lessons

15:27

just got me out of my shell. Yeah,

15:30

we changed my mind.

15:33

It was more than acting. Yeah, it was more than

15:35

acting. Yeah. Really like this small

15:37

little group of really courageous human

15:40

beings.

15:42

After the break, I talked to Jonathan Shack

15:44

about one of the darkest times

15:47

of his professional and personal life.

15:58

Well, you get a big break with

16:01

the period drama Sparrow, a

16:04

Zephyrelli film. This should

16:06

have been a wonderful experience for

16:09

a young actor, but it was actually

16:11

a nightmare.

16:13

I was a compliet nightmare for you.

16:15

And you wrote a very brave and compelling piece

16:17

many years later for People magazine about

16:19

what happened during that shoot.

16:21

I'm wondering if you want to talk about it.

16:23

So, you know, I learned

16:26

a lot since I

16:28

spoke out. But when I did speak out, it

16:30

was it was important to me because

16:32

I knew that that was a thing that was holding me back

16:34

from living my life to

16:37

the fullest and experiencing

16:39

life. I was kind of always sheltering myself

16:41

or abusing myself

16:43

in certain ways because of this incident, because

16:46

of this trauma, because of this traumaea

16:48

and what happened.

16:51

I'd learned this late. I spoke out about

16:53

it, and I couldn't figure out when it happened. I mean, I

16:56

was twenty one, twenty two years old,

16:58

and you know, it just was

17:00

something I just didn't want to deal

17:02

with. I was not gonna share with

17:05

anybody, just gonna I won't

17:07

interfere with my life.

17:08

What is this because let me just stop you. Is that because you

17:10

didn't want it to like define you? Or

17:13

is it because you were ashamed?

17:15

Well, shame took over, you

17:18

know. There's So what happened

17:21

was during the night

17:23

after the audition, the screen test,

17:25

he flew me from Los Angeles, his

17:30

producers and his whole team. So

17:33

me and my roommate, of all the thousand

17:35

people that he auditioned, me and my roommate went out

17:37

there. And this is how I learned a lot because I talked

17:39

to my roommate about it, and I wouldn't have got

17:41

that kind of information if I hadn't spoke to

17:43

him, because he was he's

17:45

an acting teacher, and he was literally like, John, did

17:47

this happened? Yeah, you did

17:49

this to me and that's not you. So

17:51

you were triggered by something that happened.

17:54

And I was like, man, this is exactly what happened.

17:57

He came into my hotel room in the middle of the night

18:01

and sexually molested me. And

18:03

I didn't kill him. I didn't stop

18:05

him. I mean, I said no, but

18:08

still there was elements of like

18:10

what was going on that I just I couldn't

18:12

even compute. Yeah, it was

18:14

just like so big and scary.

18:17

And you can't make sense of it.

18:19

Didn't make sense of it, so I buried it.

18:21

And then then

18:23

I went back to lost this is what happened. And then

18:25

I went to Los Angeles and I was freak out.

18:27

I thought, this is not this is my Hollywood

18:30

experience. You don't want to do

18:32

this. So

18:34

I went back. I got this manager, and

18:36

that manager was smart enough to start to put

18:38

me out and audition, audition

18:40

me for the soap operas, and I got I

18:43

got one of the soap

18:45

Operas offered me a

18:47

role and I was

18:49

gonna take it. But my manager, who I didn't

18:51

tell what had happened, he contacted

18:53

Zephyrelli's producers and

18:56

then they offered me the movie and they

18:58

said this Jonathan. We want

19:00

Jonathan to go to the Royal Academy at Dramatic

19:02

Arts in London and trained for three months

19:05

prior to filming, which will take

19:07

place for about six months in

19:09

Italy and Sicily. And

19:12

you know, we would think he has to have more of a

19:14

proper dialect. He mumbles a little bit. We think

19:17

he's sensational in other aspects, but

19:19

he needs to work these these things speed.

19:22

And so I had this real strong dilemma.

19:24

I'll never forget this, Like I was like, do I go

19:26

do a soap opera? Where do I

19:28

go do this movie? And my manners like you have to

19:30

go do the movie, and I didn't

19:32

know to say, hey, well this happened yeah

19:35

the last time. So what happened was

19:37

I went to lock, I went to London, I studied,

19:40

I fell in love with my co star. I

19:43

clung on to her so that I wouldn't

19:45

have to deal with Zephyrrelli ZEPHYRRELLI

19:47

was pretty adamant throughout the whole filming

19:50

process. He was brutal to me, and he

19:52

would drink and he would you know, say stuff

19:54

like you can't act and stuff like that. You

19:56

know, you can imagine at a young age it was brutal.

19:58

But he wasn't just brutled me. It was a lot of people.

20:01

He had this sexual component

20:03

that he kept prying on me, you know, trying

20:05

to get me to you

20:08

know, what's come back in my room.

20:10

And yeah, he was trying to groom you for it and get you ready

20:12

for that.

20:13

You know, It's all good, Donathan. He

20:15

was grooming me, and he was he

20:18

was Franko ZEPHYRRELLI. Man, he knew

20:20

film like nobody's business. And he taught me so

20:22

much, you know. But what

20:24

happened. I didn't allow

20:27

him to be part

20:29

of my my you know, I didn't

20:31

let him back in my bedroom. It was not I

20:33

didn't let him in the first time, and this time I had power

20:36

to say no. You know, I thought I was

20:38

gonna get fired every day. It was just like but

20:41

I mean, I didn't know any better. I just kept trying

20:43

to be like the good human being that my parents

20:45

taught me to be. And I

20:48

got to the end of the film and I knew I

20:50

was a very good actor. And Roy London was

20:52

always on the phnge talking to me, and I told

20:54

Roy, this guy's all over me, is

20:56

like, you don't need to do anything. You don't need to do anything,

20:58

you don't want. So that

21:00

gave me a lot of power that yeah, acting

21:03

teacher would say that. So at

21:05

the end of the film, Franco basically

21:08

says, you know, I want

21:10

everyone to go to positive whole cast at a

21:12

positive the most beautiful place in the world. And

21:15

when they went there, he said to me that dinner,

21:17

I'm going to come into your room and I was like, no,

21:19

you're not, No, it's not okay.

21:22

And he came to my door,

21:25

tried to open the door, door was locked. I probably

21:28

put a chair up there. Yeah, he's not

21:30

coming to my room, and this time

21:32

he's going to get hurt. But what that did

21:34

to him was it broke

21:36

his heart or it it

21:39

made him not want to talk to me

21:41

ever again. So he he dubbed

21:43

my voice in the film, and so

21:45

you use another actor and

21:48

put their voice over my voice,

21:50

and for the whole film for the whole film,

21:53

huh. So I thought that was the end of my

21:55

acting career. The first thing I ever did, and this

21:57

whole experience, and I didn't think anyone

21:59

would ever believes, like, you know, the

22:02

psychology behind what he

22:05

did. Yeah,

22:07

I just was determined. After that, I got a

22:10

great agent and

22:12

she she was great, My manager

22:14

was great, and they just worked really hard to get me more

22:16

opportunities. And then I won American Quiote

22:19

and then I had the great opportunity with Tom Hanks. So it was kind

22:21

of like I put it in the back and

22:24

you know, Franco, I tell you this, this is

22:26

such a great story man. He called

22:28

me up and his producers called me up when they had dinner with

22:30

me, and I'm on the cover of Vanity

22:32

Fair and I'm like, what does

22:34

he want? Like

22:37

inside me, I'm like, oh, what does this guy want?

22:39

Like he wants to sit down with me? Like does he

22:41

want to apologize? You know what?

22:43

What what should I do? Yeah?

22:47

I said, Oh, though I'm not scared of

22:49

him, I can't do anything to me. So

22:51

I went and it was just me and Franco having dinner

22:53

and he said, I'm

22:56

sorry what I

22:58

did you one of the loves

23:00

of my life. And I was

23:03

like, wow, hey, buddy,

23:05

like, where are you coming up with this stuff?

23:08

And I after

23:10

I spoke out, I learned that Franco was

23:13

molested by a priest and

23:15

he had done this to

23:17

every young actor

23:21

and had this type of like compelling,

23:23

you know, pulling of

23:26

art like he had. That

23:28

was the relationship he had with Wisconte

23:33

and this priest. You know,

23:36

throughout the whole life, this priest was always point.

23:38

Became his friend and started to try to get

23:40

him to make a movie about Jesus,

23:43

which he did. It

23:45

was like that you read this history, You're

23:47

like, of course he tortured Jonathan, That's

23:49

exactly who he was. He was Wow.

23:53

Yeah,

23:55

So so ask

23:57

questions because I know that wasn't the most articulate thing

23:59

in the world, but I think that we Oh, no.

24:01

It was, and it was very

24:04

brave to share that. Again,

24:07

how did this trauma impact

24:10

you down the road because you didn't

24:13

You didn't sort of deal with it in the moment, which

24:15

is what most people do, right.

24:17

They don't deal with it in the moment. They

24:19

kind of hope to put back, but it comes up, right.

24:21

I mean, how does it manifest later

24:24

in your life?

24:25

You know, it caused me to try to mask

24:27

a lot of the pain that I had inside. I was frightened

24:29

of auditions. You could imagine. Yeah,

24:32

it was psychology behind me auditioning.

24:34

It was just like and I built

24:36

this this world

24:39

around it, and it was I've come to

24:41

realize it's shame. It's

24:43

not that I was guilty of anything that I was just

24:46

I was this a horrible human being inside.

24:48

There's something really wrong with me, and

24:51

that I was just dyslexic. That had a big

24:53

thing to do with it. So I couldn't always do things the way

24:55

that people did them. I've grown

24:57

to know that that's probably the greatest gift that I could have

25:00

given as an ackor But

25:02

in the time, it was like a hell, the shame, and

25:04

I just couldn't I couldn't understand it was what

25:07

that was. And I would I would drink,

25:09

I would use drugs and use sex. Yeah,

25:12

constantly numbing myself so

25:15

that I wouldn't have this or

25:18

that I would feel really horrible about

25:20

myself. And that was my state of living.

25:23

Yeah, right right, And did

25:26

you eventually get therapy

25:29

where you got to unpack us with a

25:31

professional.

25:32

Yeah. Yeah. So after

25:34

two divorces and finding

25:37

the love of my life and having a child,

25:39

I was I was willing and

25:42

able to go

25:45

inside and I did something called brain spotting

25:47

for the abuse and

25:51

d m R. Yeah, that's what it is.

25:54

Yep. So I did that for about six

25:56

months of my life. After I spoke out. So

25:59

I was like, oh my god, what did I just do? I better

26:01

just as.

26:02

Yeah, some work. But was that liberating speaking

26:05

out?

26:06

It was? But it in the

26:08

world, like you know, you expect

26:10

like people like people would say good

26:13

things like that was very brave. But then other people

26:15

would be like, what a fuck an idiot? Why would you say

26:17

something like that? Now, now your

26:19

competitors are just could take your jobs. They're

26:21

not going to hire you any Macha roles, you

26:24

know that kind of stuff.

26:25

Really you heard that?

26:26

Oh man, I had I lost my best

26:28

friend. He just didn't want

26:30

to have He didn't want to hear any of it. Why

26:33

do you think, Well,

26:35

obviously it was something mirrored in him that he

26:37

didn't deal with. And I mean, I'd love to

26:40

unpack that for him, but it's not my job. No,

26:43

And I was you know, the other thing is I was in

26:45

my I'm sober, so I I

26:47

really started working the steps had great

26:49

sponsors. I had more than one sponsor because

26:53

I moved here, and they really helped unpack

26:55

all of it.

26:56

Yeah.

26:57

Yeah,

26:59

did you.

26:59

Hear from people? But when you spoke out? Did you hear from people?

27:01

Conversely? Who said that?

27:04

Gave me courage to speak out myself?

27:05

Yes, I reach out. I

27:07

had a preacher

27:10

in he in New York.

27:12

The same thing happened with Zephyrrelli him.

27:17

Yes, I mean I he was like,

27:19

verbatim, this happened to me, exactly what

27:22

you wrote. That happened to me. He did that.

27:24

Wow, I

27:28

know that. You also spoke to.

27:31

Rose McGowan. Oh yeah,

27:34

how did that happen? So me

27:36

and Rose very it's beautiful

27:40

putting it all together. You like, think

27:42

of the right after I'd made the Zephyrelli

27:45

movie, I won the role of the Xavier

27:47

Read and then Rose

27:49

came into the audition process

27:52

and she won the role of Amy Blue.

27:54

So we were we had to made this

27:56

movie together. Yeah, and it was like her

27:59

first experience and I just came

28:01

from this really thing. Oh god, yeah,

28:03

it was just like but you know what I've always

28:06

just loved her so much. She

28:08

was so brave, and I thought she was very good at what she

28:10

did, and she did very She became very popular

28:12

after that, very successful, and did very well as an

28:15

actress. And when

28:17

she spoke out about Harvey or Twitter,

28:21

you know, I was a Twitter. Yeah, I

28:23

just went what And then she described

28:25

what had happened. And that's really

28:28

I remember saying to my wife,

28:30

like that happened to me. Yeah,

28:34

same thing that what she was expressing

28:37

in a very articulate and you

28:39

know a deeper level of like understanding

28:42

psychology. And I reached

28:44

out to her and she was right there with me. She said,

28:46

well, you know, what do you need? Tell me

28:48

some suggestions. And I helped, you know,

28:50

we helped each other throughout the whole experience. And yeah,

28:55

very tight. She is my sister. She's

28:58

a warrior. You gotta get her on your show, right.

29:01

Well, I love her, and you're right,

29:03

I do.

29:03

But I covered the Me Too movement

29:06

a lot at CNN. I covered it a lot,

29:08

and of course I had had my own stories. But

29:10

I remember walking through

29:13

CNN through the old bureau

29:15

building in New York, and I saw

29:18

her in a green room and I

29:20

Remember I looked at her, she looked at

29:22

me.

29:22

There was this knowing glance.

29:25

I broke down in tears.

29:26

I gave her a hug and I just said thank you for

29:29

saying what you said and doing what you've done. And

29:31

then after that I told my stories

29:34

because I just felt I

29:36

had gotten power through us Moses

29:38

from her, because she's

29:41

like that, she's her. Her

29:43

feeling of empowerment is infectious.

29:46

When you're around it, you just want to be as brave as she

29:48

is.

29:49

Yeah, yeah, that's what happened, right,

29:51

Yeah, yeah, I.

29:53

Should reach out to her.

29:55

Didn't a similar thing happen

29:58

to Brendan Fraser and Terry

30:00

Crews other men have come out.

30:03

You know, there's a part of me when

30:05

that because it

30:08

destroyed my life so much and it was

30:10

such a big secret that when

30:12

Terry, you know, the more I have thought

30:15

about what happened to Terry and what happened to Brendan

30:17

in public and then having

30:20

the vot like

30:22

the being courageous and saying you can't

30:24

do that in public, right,

30:27

they didn't have all this uh you know,

30:30

torture like like

30:32

like what Baby Reindeer went through. Then

30:35

you see that, Yeah, he really

30:37

broke that down to incredible, Like he didn't have that, They didn't

30:39

have these inner demons that destroyed their

30:41

lives. They had this thing that they shared with and

30:43

it was really strong for everyone who had gone through

30:45

it. Yeah, Terry was so

30:48

supportive of me. It's such a big

30:50

way. You know. He kept telling

30:52

me to try to get louder. You

30:56

get loud. I can't get loud.

30:57

No, we can't all get as loud as

30:59

to right. That's

31:02

great though.

31:03

So I was. I was a big part of that me Too

31:05

movement. I was always in those meetings

31:07

with SAG I get part of it. I helped

31:09

organize this big committee with all these

31:11

big powerhouse Terry being one and

31:14

trying to you know, trying to make rules that

31:16

would empower actors.

31:19

Yeah.

31:19

Streen Actors Guild, and that's basically what it was,

31:22

is that you're allowed to speak up. Yeah,

31:25

you know what, the more I thought about it,

31:27

that's that's it. Because if

31:29

they they silence you, and they keep you

31:31

silenced a predator, you're

31:34

you're in trouble. But if you're aboud to speak

31:37

out, careful what they

31:39

do, it'll be cautious to what they're

31:41

doing.

31:41

Yeah, I'm a little I

31:44

think Me Too was really impactful

31:46

and important, but I don't think

31:48

it's done.

31:49

And I know in my business

31:52

ie things have

31:54

gotten a little bit better.

31:55

But what still happens is if

31:57

you talk, if you speak out about someone,

32:00

you're generally just not hired again. And

32:03

that's the that's the rub for

32:05

us. Because Me

32:08

Too led a lot of people in my business

32:10

to speak out, a lot of them never got

32:12

hired again. And so we still

32:14

have to make the choice do I speak out or

32:17

do I want to keep my job?

32:19

And that sucks. That's the sucky part

32:21

in my business.

32:22

That's what we JAGU do and SAG is

32:24

empowered person go this happened.

32:26

It doesn't mean that we need to eliminate this

32:29

individual. Yeah, we just

32:31

need to regulate this individual, but

32:33

to make sure that that whatever that they did to

32:35

me never happens again. You know. So

32:38

if someone if someone had done that with

32:40

Franco, yeah, I wouldn't

32:42

have been abused, right right,

32:45

So that's the thing you read the

32:47

way out, and then you can't

32:51

be alone in that. You need support in that,

32:53

right, Yes, you don't lose your job. That's

32:56

the tricky rub right there.

32:58

It is tricky, but

33:01

thank you for sharing that the first

33:03

time and again with me. I appreciate it.

33:06

Yeah. I think we shared some stuff that I've

33:08

been wanting to talk about, so I appreciate it very much.

33:10

Oh I'm glad. Then I'm glad. Well

33:13

we're not done. Let's move on to some better things. Winona

33:16

Ryder, Jessica Lang, Gwyneth Paltrow, Live Tyler.

33:19

You've worked with some very talented women.

33:22

Who's your favorite female acting

33:24

partner Jessica Lang.

33:27

Yeah, why, well, she taught me everything

33:29

I needed to know. Oh my god, she

33:31

was just like she would tell me just straight

33:33

up. They said I was doing wrong? Really,

33:36

Oh yeah, she is brilliant and she really

33:39

she I don't even know how she does

33:41

that with everyone, but she did it with me. She was my mother

33:45

in it, so that's

33:47

great.

33:48

What was the story with Ellen DeGeneres.

33:51

You would go to public events with her?

33:53

What was that is crazy?

33:54

Yeah?

33:55

Yeah, I mean my manager came to me one day

33:57

and said, Ellen has a TV

34:00

show, wasn't her talk show? And

34:02

she's afraid that you know too,

34:06

for the public to think that she's gay,

34:09

and she'd like for

34:11

you to be her date.

34:14

And I was like, and I loved her. She was awesome

34:17

Jesus, but.

34:17

You didn't know her or you didn't know her.

34:19

We were with the same manager,

34:21

so I was always around her and we

34:23

always got along. So well, okay,

34:25

well I would take her on the red carpet

34:28

and hold her hand and never forget

34:30

the days he kissed me on the bread and

34:34

yeah, it was right around the time with the

34:36

whole Zephyr Eli thing. I always wanted

34:38

to tell Ellen when I happened.

34:40

You never got to tell Ellen.

34:42

Never got to tell Alan. I would have liked to

34:44

share that with her because I was you

34:47

can imagine then I was hiding her

34:49

see her shame right,

34:52

Yeah, in my shame. I didn't know what

34:54

it was. I really needed to talk to someone about

34:56

it. Yeah. Well

34:58

she was a great person, I had to and your most

35:01

interesting thing of all that, and then watching

35:03

her become very successful after and

35:05

so she came out. She was rich,

35:09

she was very successful. You

35:11

know, she was in great relationships.

35:13

She was healthy in her relationships to a

35:15

degree, but

35:18

like it seemed like she had everything, but what she

35:20

really didn't have was love,

35:23

love for herself. So

35:26

when she when Anne Hash and

35:28

her started dating and

35:31

I don't know if this exactly happened. I'm pretty certain

35:33

this Anne was basically like, you you're

35:36

with me, You're with me.

35:40

The old world needs to know, right like,

35:43

you're not gonna go out with him, here

35:46

with me. And I think that was

35:48

kind of the way it happened. And it

35:50

made her really like look

35:53

at herself a different way. And then they broke up. And

35:55

then it broke up. She

35:57

went into a very dark period whereas never

36:00

got this. I hardly ever saw her after that. And

36:02

then she came out with the talk show and

36:05

she became this beautiful human

36:07

being that people didn't realize,

36:09

you know, she was gay anymore.

36:11

They just thought you didn't care.

36:12

Yeah, they didn't care, which was really good for

36:14

us. Yeah as a society.

36:18

Of course, are you still friendly?

36:20

When I moved I moved to Nashville,

36:23

Tennessee, I tried really hard to reach

36:25

out to her so that if

36:27

it was the last time I would ever see her, that I could

36:29

say goodbye to her. And I

36:31

wasn't able to do that. We're gonna have dinner, and

36:33

then it fell apart and

36:36

then she's you know, she's retreated

36:39

wherever she is now. Well,

36:42

hopefully you get that chance to talk.

36:45

I did. I had a beautiful moment. It

36:48

was in the It was in the garage at Soho

36:51

and she pulled up in her Porsche. She goes,

36:53

Jonathan, I was with my little boy and

36:56

I was like he

36:59

ended like yeah, Porsia like

37:02

was. I was like, hi, poor John, Jonathan,

37:04

oh man, you know friends with Ellen for such

37:07

a long time, and this wait, I said, this

37:09

is my little miracle, you know, this is my own. She

37:12

was so sweet. Then she had had a new idea.

37:14

She was yeah, right, that's

37:17

nice.

37:17

Though, Maybe that was the closure that I needed.

37:19

Maybe, yeah, yeah, oh that's great.

37:23

Up next, what's the story behind the leather

37:26

coat? Guy? More with Jonathan Check Tell

37:38

me about Blue Ridge.

37:41

So, Blue Ridge is a beautiful series.

37:44

It's it's a series that I can

37:46

watch it with my eleven year old son and my eighty eight

37:48

five year old father and everyone's going to

37:51

have to do time watching it, and you can watch

37:53

it. My wife can watch it because there's a lot of romance

37:55

in it as well. Okay, but

37:58

the beautiful thing about Blue Ridge is

38:01

it came to me after

38:03

I left Hollywood. I didn't

38:06

want to have anything to do with the process

38:08

of Hollywood anymore, and I

38:10

knew it wasn't working for me. And

38:13

I called up five of my friends, Tom Hanks

38:15

being one and one, Nicholas

38:18

Gonzalez, and Nick said,

38:21

you have got to meet this producer named

38:23

Gary Wheeler and I'll hook

38:25

you guys up. And Gary called me up and

38:28

he said, Jonathan, I had this film about a guy who leaves

38:30

California and moved to

38:32

a small town to be with his family. Yeah.

38:35

I was like, yeah, buddy,

38:37

Yeah, thank you. I

38:39

don't know if that's a god smack or what, but then

38:43

that's pretty wild.

38:44

Yeah.

38:44

And then we went and shot the movie and

38:48

then COVID hit and Gary

38:50

called me one around Christmas. He was

38:52

like, they want to turn this into a series. I'm like, well,

38:54

they wanted me to be in it. He

38:56

was like, yeah, yeah, a big idea. I

38:59

was like, why won't you do this right away a few years

39:01

ago? Hey? And you know what? They

39:04

wrote six beautiful scripts

39:06

and the first season's coming out.

39:09

It came out on ISP Yeah,

39:12

but now it's coming out of Amazon Prime. Okay,

39:14

good support to get to see it. People love it.

39:17

It's the kind of reminds me of old school

39:19

TV that I used to grow up on, where the whole

39:21

family would sit down and watch it.

39:23

Yeah, right, for me, that was murder.

39:25

She wrote, Yeah, this is very similar.

39:27

I love that. You know.

39:28

She was a writer like me and living

39:30

in New England where I grew up, and I.

39:32

Was just like, oh, I want to be Jessica Fletcher.

39:34

But we would all gather to watch it, and there's not a

39:36

lot of that left anymore.

39:38

Yes, yeah, then we brought that back.

39:40

Why did you want to leave Hollywood?

39:43

Well, I realized like that even

39:45

though audition audition process had

39:48

created such shame in me, and I need a distance

39:50

from it. I knew just

39:52

I couldn't, I couldn't continue down that

39:54

road and I needed to maintain my sobriety,

39:59

and I didn't want to cause any harm in my family,

40:02

and I just I just knew it was the right

40:04

thing. I surrendered to something

40:08

much more powerful than I had ever

40:11

experienced before. And I'm completely surrendered

40:13

and knew that I just didn't need to be part

40:15

of that world anymore.

40:18

When you put yourself first,

40:21

I'll speak from my experience, not yours.

40:24

You know, I had like a nervous breakdown a few years ago

40:26

and a lot of it had to do with what I do for a living, and

40:29

my fear was

40:31

okay, well, the obvious thing to

40:34

do is stop doing what I do.

40:36

But who am I?

40:37

Then?

40:38

Will I still get work? Will I still get to

40:41

do stuff?

40:42

If I take myself out of the

40:45

sort of the firing line that I've lived in

40:47

for a very long time doing news in politics,

40:50

what then? But I

40:52

haven't completely left that world, but I've set a lot of boundaries

40:54

and I've changed sort of the way that I

40:56

work within that space.

40:58

And when you put yourself first, it is so

41:00

scary at first,

41:03

but for me it's been validated

41:06

again and again and again over time.

41:09

Have you felt that way.

41:10

Yes, very much so. So you

41:12

know you may not get the call that you're

41:14

used to getting. Better call.

41:17

Yes, And if we live in fear,

41:20

it doesn't happen. We don't allow ourselves.

41:22

Those are too scared. But when we live in we

41:25

go into the unknown, and we have courage in it,

41:28

things come to us. Being

41:30

brave is rewarded. So

41:32

good for you. It's

41:34

a tough world that you live in. I

41:37

don't watch the news.

41:39

I'm jealous.

41:41

We fund ourself on the radio. I'm like, man,

41:44

I don't know what they're I don't know what they're selling,

41:46

but I'm I'm not interested. I'm

41:49

not interested.

41:51

It is tough. But well,

41:53

that's that's great advice and I'm

41:56

glad we shared those stories. Uh

41:58

okay.

41:59

Next we're going to lighten up with a lightning

42:01

round. And

42:07

the first part is a bit of a quiz. It's

42:09

but it's a quiz about you. Okay, let's

42:11

say if I know me, Yeah, we'll see.

42:14

What is the name?

42:16

You'll know this? This is easy.

42:18

What is the name of the beach band that

42:21

the Wonders play in that thing?

42:22

You do Captain Geech and the Shrimp Shack Shooters?

42:25

Correct? Okay, But the second part is trickier.

42:28

What is Captain Geach and the Shrimp Shack Shooters named

42:30

after?

42:32

Uh? Tom was filming Bulbus

42:35

Shrimp farst Gum, Yes,

42:37

and he would he kept driving by this. He

42:40

told me this. Here's I kept driving by this shrimp

42:42

Shack. I think it was like old

42:45

dilapidated thing, and that's how it came up with

42:47

the name.

42:47

Yes, it's two restaurants. He kept driving

42:49

by Captain Geeches and the

42:52

Shrimp Shack, and so he

42:54

combined them.

42:55

So he was writing while he was making

42:58

Uh.

43:00

Yep, amazing in

43:02

the sweetest thing. What are your only

43:04

lines as leather coat guy?

43:07

Oh? I know, I

43:09

am, but what do you something

43:11

like that, something like that, Yeah,

43:14

what's up with you?

43:15

With you nothing? What's up with you? Nothing?

43:18

What's up with you?

43:19

You know? The story behind that I was I

43:21

was watching Christina perform

43:24

that day during camera and

43:26

they said, Jonathan, will you go in the scene.

43:28

Oh, you were just on sets as Christina's

43:30

husband try to pick her.

43:32

Up, and so look, thank you for my beer.

43:34

And Christina, you know, she's

43:36

such a genius. She just comes

43:39

up with this little brief that we started to

43:41

do back and forth.

43:42

Oh my god, that's amazing.

43:43

Did you come in with the leather jacket on or did

43:45

they put the leather coat on you?

43:47

They put me through wardrobe. They said, go to

43:49

wardrobe and get because I think I had a baseball

43:51

cap and.

43:52

You didn't look like you were going clubbing.

43:54

Yeah, and so yeah, the leather

43:56

coat guy. And then they asked me to continue

43:58

the part. But I I was doing

44:01

this film that I had a flat to Morocco. Well,

44:03

it was a great little part.

44:04

It was great.

44:05

And that's a really funny, funny

44:07

movie. Okay, the quizzes well,

44:09

no, the quiz is not over. What was your high school mascot

44:13

ram?

44:13

Yeah, you got it. Okay, the quiz is

44:15

over. You have two

44:17

kids? What kind of dad are you?

44:20

Wow? It's

44:22

deep. I just

44:25

try to be as present as I can. Yeah,

44:28

and you know, my sobriety, it's one thing

44:30

about I will always chirp about my being

44:33

sober. It is like I'm present

44:35

with my children. I mean, I'm there.

44:38

If I was drinking, if I

44:40

had party on my brain, or if I wanted

44:42

to go do certain things to just kind

44:44

of escape and I'd be a little boy, I wouldn't

44:46

be present for them as much as

44:49

so. I'm really proud of myself for getting sober.

44:52

Present is everything. Yeah,

44:56

okay. What's the best thing

44:58

you make for your kids in terms

45:00

of food?

45:02

Oh? Wow, I make them bagels

45:04

and we you know, they get to choose

45:06

their toppings.

45:08

Oh that's fun. That's great. Okay.

45:10

And chicken. They love chicken because I eat chicken

45:13

five times a day.

45:14

Yeah, okay,

45:16

that's good. What's your favorite

45:19

Christmas movie?

45:21

Die Hard?

45:25

That is legit a Christmas movie? And I

45:28

don't blame you. That's great. It's a great

45:30

film.

45:32

It all want to be in a Christmas movie.

45:34

We should have not done a Christmas movie.

45:36

Have they ever made one about like a newscaster

45:39

who finds love? Oh?

45:41

Like a Hallmark movie? Yeah, oh,

45:43

we should do that. That would be really fun. I'll

45:46

write it. You or you're in it.

45:47

All right, let's do it.

45:48

I love that has to be in a

45:51

small town.

45:51

She's writer for a small town newspaper, or

45:53

maybe she leaves the big city for a small town.

45:56

Exactly. That's what you have to it's

45:58

got They got their little equation down.

46:00

Oh it's a formula.

46:00

Yeah.

46:01

Oh but you'd be so great in that. Okay, we'll

46:04

do that. Okay.

46:05

Final question, and it's very important to me. When

46:08

is iced coffee season?

46:11

Mm hmm. It's begins

46:14

in July. When does

46:16

it go to September?

46:19

Okay, that's incorrect.

46:20

It would be July to July year round, is the correct

46:22

answer. That's

46:28

just because I'm from Boston and there's Dunkin Donuts

46:30

in my blood.

46:33

I did go to Cornell Wow, great school.

46:35

Oh yeah, I loved it.

46:38

Yeah.

46:39

We had a lot of laxers from from Maryland.

46:43

It was a big, big feeder school from Maryland,

46:45

Lacrosse exactly.

46:47

Well, Jonathan checked.

46:48

This was fun and

46:50

insightful and important

46:53

and I appreciate it.

46:56

Yeah, thank you for It's important

46:58

to talk about these things for our mental out

47:00

and yes, and to do it in a way that

47:02

people can hear it. You know, I've done so much

47:04

work of myself, so I'm not going to get buried into these,

47:07

you know, shameful episodes when

47:09

I speak of it. And I appreciate you

47:12

not being too triggered

47:14

to where we couldn't have a resourceful

47:17

conversation in which we did. So.

47:18

Thanks same to you, and look, no

47:21

shame, all gain in talking about

47:23

it, all gain.

47:25

Thank you.

47:28

Next week on Off the Cup, I talked to a comic

47:31

writer, actress all

47:34

the things, Judy Gold.

47:36

We're the truth tellers. We're not afraid to tell

47:38

the truth right right and call people

47:40

out and say you're you're Are

47:42

we allowed to curse on this?

47:43

Yes?

47:47

Off the Cup is a production of iHeart Podcasts

47:49

as part of the Reason Choice Network. If

47:51

you want more, check out the other Reason Choice

47:53

podcasts, Politics with Jamel

47:55

Hill and Native Land pod For

47:58

Off the Cup, I am your host, se cup editing

48:00

and sound designed by Derek Clements. Our

48:02

executive producers are me Se cop

48:05

Lauren Hanson, and Lindsay Hoffman. Rate

48:07

and review wherever you get your podcasts.

48:09

Follow or subscribe for new episodes

48:12

every Wednesday,