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on your order. That's q-u-i-n-c-e.com/

1:10

offline. Am I a propagandist?

1:12

A truth teller. An influencer? There's

1:14

probably no more contested profession in

1:17

the world today than mine. Journalism.

1:19

I'm Brian Reed and on my

1:21

show Question Everything. We dive headfirst

1:23

into the conflicts we're all facing

1:26

over truth and who gets to

1:28

tell it. Listen now to question

1:30

everything. Part of the MPR podcast

1:33

network. I think a lot of the

1:35

skeleton key of the modern conservative movement... in

1:37

America boils down to like in-sale theory or

1:39

game or gate or whatever you want to

1:42

call it. But it's this idea that like

1:44

there are a bunch of useless men on

1:46

the internet and conservatives who realize they can

1:48

weaponize them by like enraging them and sending

1:51

them after their enemies. And now like that

1:53

dynamic has flipped in a weird way where

1:55

they've clearly internalized that they have a bunch

1:57

of like useless lonely men on their side.

2:00

So now they're like, we should put

2:02

them in factories, actually. Like, we

2:04

should get these freaks out of

2:06

here. And so you see these

2:08

guys all day long, and now,

2:10

like, because Fox News picks it

2:12

up, like, that's the pipeline. They're

2:14

saying to men, like, don't worry

2:16

about your 401k. You can make

2:18

socks in a factory in 15

2:20

years. So Max is out for

2:22

a few more days this week.

2:24

We are lucky to have Ryan

2:26

who writes one of offline's favorite

2:28

newsletters, Garbage Day. Austin, our producer,

2:30

got us all hooked on Garbage

2:32

Day and now we all read

2:34

it all the time and it's

2:36

fantastic. Your listeners can't hear me

2:38

blessing right now. I don't know

2:40

if my microphone's powerful enough. You've

2:42

been writing this newsletter about life

2:44

on the internet for I think

2:46

six years now? Out of curiosity,

2:49

are you okay? Yeah, no, this

2:51

is cheaper than therapy. People pay

2:53

me instead of me paying a

2:55

therapist. So this works great for

2:57

me. That's good. What do you

2:59

think has changed the most about

3:01

the internet, life on the internet,

3:03

all that you cover since you

3:05

started writing? There was a, I

3:07

think the biggest one, I mean

3:09

a lot, right, but like I

3:11

think the biggest one is the

3:13

internet used to have a center,

3:15

at least in terms of our

3:17

understanding of it, like Twitter. for

3:19

most countries was sort of the

3:21

meeting ground, the watering hole for

3:23

the internet, and we lost that.

3:25

And so now there's like a

3:27

right-wing Twitter, and there's a left-wing

3:29

Twitter, and there's all kinds of

3:31

other derivative Twitter, and so it's

3:33

harder to track stuff. It's a

3:35

lot harder than it used to

3:37

be. But I think that's probably

3:39

a good thing. I think Twitter

3:41

is probably getting a little too

3:43

crowded by the end, but it's

3:45

harder to find stuff, I think.

3:47

politics, it like makes sort of

3:49

any kind of functioning politics, democracy

3:51

much tougher because no one is

3:53

getting the same information and in

3:56

many cases people aren't even talking

3:58

to each other. So that part,

4:00

you know, and it is obviously

4:02

aligned with the Trump era, but

4:04

it's made everything just a bit

4:06

trickier, I think. I will say

4:08

I do I do find X

4:10

convenient in a certain way because

4:12

I used to have to go

4:14

to 4chan to see the stuff

4:16

that these guys are talking about

4:18

and 4chan doesn't really have a

4:20

great interface it's not good on

4:22

mobile but like X you can

4:24

pull it up and you can

4:26

see like what all the worst

4:28

people on earth they're talking about

4:30

so like in terms of like

4:32

snooping around. I think that is

4:34

useful, but it is a nightmare

4:36

to open it. You can't open

4:38

it in public. Like it's really

4:40

dangerous actually. Yeah, if you're anywhere

4:42

to the left of center and

4:44

you're still on X like I

4:46

am and you are. No one

4:48

can accuse us of not getting

4:50

outside our liberal bubble. That's for

4:52

sure. No, yeah. I'm fully exposed

4:54

to like straight up blood and

4:56

soil nationalism all day long. All

4:58

day long. All day long. All

5:00

right. Let's start with the biggest

5:03

story in the world. The global

5:05

economic turmoil caused by Donald Trump's

5:07

trade war, which, believe it or

5:09

not, is also an internet story.

5:11

Just one example. On Monday, someone

5:13

named Walter Bloomberg, who's a popular

5:15

news influencer on X, tweeted that

5:17

President Trump was considering a 90-day

5:19

pause on his tariff plan, the

5:21

market surged 8% until everyone realized

5:23

that the tweet was a complete

5:25

misinterpretation of an answer that Trump's

5:27

economic advisor gave on Fox and

5:29

Friends in a viral clip that

5:31

was taken out of context. And

5:33

then once the White House confirmed

5:35

it wasn't true, the market's plunged

5:37

again. And who knew that Walter

5:39

Bloomberg was just ahead of his

5:41

time? Because just before we started

5:43

recording this, Trump wrote what Commerce

5:45

Secretary Howard Lutnik called, quote, one

5:47

of the most extraordinary truth posts

5:49

of his presidency, in which he

5:51

announced a 90-day pause in the

5:53

tariffs, except for China, except for

5:55

the 10% universal tariff, which seems

5:57

to... You now include Canada and

5:59

Mexico, but also no one's really

6:01

sure. Anyway, the market surged. All

6:03

the Trump Sika fans hailed the

6:05

art of the deal and claimed

6:07

this was the plan all along.

6:09

And then Trump came out and

6:12

said he did it because the

6:14

bond market was making people, quote,

6:16

queasy. What do you think? Is

6:18

this the sign of a healthy media system

6:20

and financial system? Yeah, I mean I

6:22

love Walter Bloomberg I can't even like

6:24

hear his name so I first discovered

6:26

that guy when I was covering crypto

6:29

like four four years ago now and

6:31

you know I can't afford the Bloomberg

6:33

terminal so like if there's one like

6:35

insane man that just wants to live

6:38

treated all day like that is useful

6:40

but this is you know what happens

6:42

when you're relying on Walter Bloomberg I

6:44

do I thought for like from for

6:46

a couple years I thought Walter Bloomberg

6:49

was He was just the Bloomberg terminal.

6:51

I thought he was just replicating it,

6:53

but I guess that's not, clearly that's

6:55

not true after this week. Up until

6:57

like a year or two ago, I

6:59

thought the Spectator Index, which is like

7:01

a similar kind of account, was run

7:03

by the Spectator out of London, but

7:05

it is just also another weird man.

7:07

It's tough. It's tough. But no, to

7:09

answer your question, it is not a

7:11

healthy sign of a global media ecosystem

7:13

at all. Some of Trump's most prominent

7:15

and extremely online supporters have been rather

7:18

vocal in their opposition to this trade

7:20

war. You got your Bill Ackmans,

7:22

your Dave Portnoy, even Elon Musk,

7:24

who's in something of a middle

7:26

school boy fight with Trump trade

7:28

advisor Peter Navarro. Since a lot of

7:31

people spent about 80% of their

7:33

post-election analysis talking about

7:35

the bro vote, podcast bros,

7:38

finance bros, barstool bros. Do

7:40

you think the trade war has made some

7:42

of these folks think twice about their support

7:44

for Trump? How is it landing in those

7:46

communities? I definitely have seen. So I'm a

7:48

close watcher of Dave Portnoy because we grew

7:51

up near the same part of Massachusetts. So

7:53

I have like regional beef with him already.

7:55

Where are you from? So I will not

7:57

to docs myself, but I'm from north of

7:59

Boston. just like me too. Okay, okay,

8:02

yeah, so North Redding. Okay, Marvel Head,

8:04

yeah. Oh, look at us. Yeah, so

8:06

he's from Swamscott. So like, obviously, like,

8:08

he's on the radar. Yeah, exactly. Yeah,

8:11

exactly. Yeah. So, you know, as another

8:13

Massachusetts trash bag, I've been watching him

8:15

closely and. He has been breaking with

8:18

Trump like a lot faster than his

8:20

contemporaries. I think it's, he's always been

8:22

sort of politically chaotic, but now we're

8:25

seeing Joe Rogan. Yeah, we're seeing Ben

8:27

Shapiro. And I mean, ultimately, these guys,

8:29

like, they, they make their money from

8:32

drop shipping. So like, if there's tariffs

8:34

on Chinese goods, like, they're supplements, they're,

8:36

like, jaw, in-sell, like, things that they're

8:39

selling on YouTube, you can't do that

8:41

anymore. Yeah. It's not great. I do

8:43

think, and look, these guys were, I

8:45

mean, they were the folks that like

8:48

sort of put him over the top,

8:50

right? I mean, they weren't like the

8:52

hardcore magga from the beginning, and so

8:55

I think their support was always somewhat

8:57

tenuous and seemed to be based more

8:59

on a general like. you know I'm

9:02

pissed about inflation and the woke shit

9:04

and now I'm just going to talk

9:06

myself into why Donald Trump actually isn't

9:09

that bad and maybe it's kind of

9:11

cool especially because he pumped his fist

9:13

after someone almost assassinated him. Well I

9:16

mean you've probably noticed this too but

9:18

like even going all the way back

9:20

to the first administration like the girlies

9:22

are always fighting on the right like

9:25

they have massive in-fighting problems I mean

9:27

this is actually like a baked into

9:29

fascism like from like 200 years ago.

9:32

They're always fighting with each other. So

9:34

like Milo's like beefing with you know

9:36

whoever at TV USA like it just

9:39

this is a thing but it is

9:41

interesting to watch like why they start

9:43

fighting. I do think the signals there

9:46

are useful. Yeah and it's also the

9:48

signals are also useful in terms of

9:50

like who is starting to peel off

9:53

or at least you know question their

9:55

support for Trump and who is just

9:57

completely embarrassing themselves and sticking with them

9:59

no matter what and you know just

10:02

basically changing their rationale for supporting the

10:04

trade policy or not supporting it based

10:06

on, you know, hour to hour developments.

10:09

Well, you mentioned Ackman. I mean, he

10:11

really peed his pants today because he

10:13

was just like thanking Trump afterwards, be

10:16

like, thank you so much, Mr. President,

10:18

for turning the economy back on. And

10:20

it's like, a lot of these guys,

10:23

like, they can't save face. And like,

10:25

I guess they just do the math

10:27

and being like, we'll stick with Trump,

10:30

because maybe. you know it's an authoritarian

10:32

regime like i'll stick with them but

10:34

yeah it's it's very embarrassing i mean

10:36

watching fox was wild we were watching

10:39

fox while well it all happened and

10:41

um It was immediately art of the

10:43

deal, which is what the White House

10:46

press secretary said. And, you know, this

10:48

is, everything's wonderful now, and this is

10:50

great. And finally, like, of all people,

10:53

like, Charles Gasparino from Fox Business comes

10:55

on Fox, and he's like, I'd love

10:57

to say that Donald Trump's a genius

11:00

that just saved the world economy, but

11:02

that's not actually what happened. And you

11:04

can see everyone else on Fox, like

11:07

their eyes go wide like their eyes

11:09

go wide. I mean, very possible, but

11:11

like this is actually I think of

11:13

really important shift that's happening where Trump

11:16

for, you know, let's say the last

11:18

15 years has sort of said to

11:20

everyone that he is a capitalist and

11:23

he is doing good things for the

11:25

economy and this is like the conservative

11:27

capitalist agenda. And now we're kind of

11:30

seeing the evolution of a very different

11:32

brand of Trumpism that has been, you

11:34

know, gurgling since the beginning of the

11:37

year, and it's now having a break

11:39

with the actual like, like, you know,

11:41

hardcore capitalist of America. It's it's it's

11:44

fascinating and and a little scary. Yeah,

11:46

a little scary. I mean, just since

11:48

we're not out of the woods, by

11:50

any means, since the trade war still

11:53

very much on, and you know, China

11:55

and us combined are like 50% of

11:57

the global economy. I noticed you wrote

12:00

that you lived in the UK during

12:02

Brexit and you were in India during

12:04

Prime Minister Modi's demonitization scheme. What was

12:07

that like and and do you see

12:09

similarities to the situation where and now,

12:11

what can people expect in America? Yeah,

12:14

I wrote that down and people kept

12:16

saying, like, stop going to countries, please.

12:18

You're destroying the economy. Yeah, so I

12:21

lived in the UK during Brexit. As

12:23

a reporter, I was in India for

12:25

demonization and I lived in Brazil during

12:27

the Bolsonaro regime, with like massive hyperinflation

12:30

and all that, right? So, so for

12:32

Brexit, it was a slow motion car

12:34

crash. It felt very similar to now,

12:37

but they voted, and then they took.

12:39

basically five years to exit the European

12:41

Union. So, you know, you're walking on

12:44

the street in London and just stuff

12:46

starts being worse. Like, you just, like,

12:48

systems don't function, you know, the buses

12:51

are dirtier, the trains, dirtier, things don't

12:53

work as well, people are poor, but

12:55

it was over five years. You know,

12:58

in India, when you have, like, literally,

13:00

just banknotes that just stopped working and

13:02

stopped being money, it's, it's a similar

13:04

shock to, I think, I don't think

13:07

the average American really understands, like, how

13:09

interconnected the global economy is, like, especially

13:11

even compared to 2008. You know, in

13:14

2008, we all were a little poorer

13:16

and, you know, and I don't want

13:18

to diminish it, but, like, it is

13:21

not the same economy. And the example

13:23

that I used in the piece was,

13:25

like, think of the Suez Canal Boat.

13:28

Like, think of how interconnected you said

13:30

about Brexit, it does feel like we're

13:32

on... in the Brexit scenario with a

13:35

shorter timeline because we'll start seeing the

13:37

cost of goods rise just based on

13:39

the tariffs that still exist right now.

13:41

And then you combine that with just

13:44

government services breaking down because of what

13:46

Musk and Trump are doing to the

13:48

federal government. And you think, okay. If

13:51

we have a country where everything's more

13:53

expensive, people are a little poorer, shit

13:55

doesn't work, government doesn't function properly, even

13:58

worse than it does now, and that's

14:00

like... best case scenario. Right. That's like

14:02

the scenario as of right now. Yes.

14:05

That's like if we get out of

14:07

this without a much worse disaster and

14:09

we don't have like Trump as president.

14:12

forever or Trump and Don Junior and

14:14

JD Vance or whatever. Yeah, that's the

14:16

rotating cast of fantastic men. Normal looking

14:18

men. Yeah, so exactly, like I think,

14:21

you know, everyone in our heads, we

14:23

kind of imagine like the pictures from

14:25

the Great Depression or our own experiences

14:28

during the Great Recession, but like the

14:30

idea of locking ourselves off from

14:32

the global economy by choice, you

14:34

know, is, is. incomprehensible. And we

14:36

are going to see services breakdown.

14:38

We are going to have moments

14:41

where stuff just doesn't cost the

14:43

normal amount or we forget what

14:45

normal is. And then we have

14:47

a social services problem that's already

14:49

been happening in this country for

14:51

20 years. And I can't even imagine

14:53

what it would look like if it was

14:55

worse. Offline

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details at turbotax.com. So

27:15

another casualty of Trump's tariffs might be

27:17

a possible tick-talk deal. The New York

27:19

Times reported this week that as of

27:21

last Wednesday, Liberation Day Eve, the White

27:23

House and Bike Dance, a tick-tocks parent

27:25

company, coalesced around a new ownership structure

27:27

that would allow the popular video app

27:29

to continue operating in the United States,

27:31

but after Trump announced a slew of

27:33

new tariffs on Chinese imports by dance,

27:36

unsurprisingly informed the White House that the

27:38

Chinese government would not let the deal

27:40

proceed. In response, President Trump paused enforcement

27:42

of the ban for an additional 75

27:44

days. He was just asked about it

27:46

in the oval right before he recorded,

27:48

and he said, yeah, Chinese not too

27:50

happy right now, so I don't know,

27:52

but I'm still hopeful it'll get done.

27:54

What do you make of this? Do

27:56

you, any chance that the Chinese government

27:58

lets this deal proceed? Or does it

28:00

even matter? Like, I mean, I am of the

28:02

view that Trump, who doesn't really

28:05

care much for the law anyway,

28:07

is just gonna continue kicking this

28:09

can down the road every 75 days, but

28:11

I don't know, what do you think? I

28:13

mean, I'm supposed to be kind of

28:15

object about this stuff, but I think

28:18

it's really funny. I think it's just

28:20

really funny. Because he clearly, like, yes,

28:22

he is clearly consolidating power into some

28:24

sort of autocracy or dictatorship, and the

28:26

guy is the Graham plan here. But

28:28

I do love to like, even he's

28:30

like, I'm not. touch the tick-tock thing

28:33

like it's just too much and so

28:35

I sort of do think he's like

28:37

it's in no one's best interest to

28:39

deal with it and that is sort

28:41

of like it'll it'll that's kind of

28:43

the American way like just like don't

28:45

do it like just ignore it yeah unless

28:47

I wonder if like the Chinese get so

28:50

pissed that they shut because of the trade

28:52

war That's a lover they can pull. They

28:54

could always shut down TikTok in the United

28:56

States. I mean, they have said that like

28:58

they don't need TikTok to operate in the

29:00

United States. And I believe them. I mean,

29:02

it's not like they have a total. They

29:04

have the rest of the planet and they

29:06

also have back home. Like they don't

29:08

really like and and they've all and

29:10

this was like their their narrative during

29:12

the trade war when it was I

29:14

guess happening more intensely or earlier in

29:16

the week when they're like we will

29:18

fight like we will we will stay

29:20

in this like and I do take

29:22

them at their at face value there

29:24

so they could use it as lower.

29:26

But I think Trump is a smart

29:28

enough to not to not mess with

29:30

Tik I think. I think so too,

29:32

and I also think he just sees

29:35

so much financial opportunity, sadly, right? Like

29:37

there's, he can get part of a

29:39

deal, the government gets part of a

29:41

deal, he makes a deal with China,

29:43

it's part of the trade negotiations, so

29:45

it's just another chip and like shutting

29:47

it down is just a pain in

29:49

the ass, he doesn't, he clearly doesn't

29:51

care about the Chinese government spying on

29:53

Americans or any privacy issues, like that's

29:55

not, and in terms of, you know,

29:57

what the algorithm might do to spread

29:59

propaganda. He knows it's going to be

30:01

mostly pro- Trump or at least it

30:03

has been. I mean I guess they

30:05

could turn it back. He loves a

30:07

tryout. He loves making a bunch of

30:09

sick freaks compete for something. And having

30:11

all of his rich friends get up

30:13

and be like, I want to invest

30:15

in TikTok. I've heard Anderson Horowitz is

30:17

interested. I've heard Amazon's interested. I've heard

30:19

like a whole bunch of other billionaires

30:22

are interested. And Trump loves that stuff.

30:24

Like that's just a carrot that he

30:26

can hang on a stick for his

30:28

entire presidency if he really wants to.

30:30

Yeah, and he probably will. And Bezos

30:32

is interested and he might make a

30:34

bid and Zuckaburg hates it and so

30:36

maybe he keeps him on the line.

30:38

Exactly. It's perfect. All it is. It's

30:40

a win-win. All right, let's talk about

30:42

the man whose volume of posting may

30:44

actually exceed his wealth. Of course, immediately

30:46

called the news garbage with Caroline Leavitt,

30:48

tweeting, quote, Elon Musk and President Trump

30:50

have both publicly stated that Elon will

30:52

depart from public service as a special

30:54

government employee when his incredible work at

30:56

Doge is complete. But notable rift between

30:58

the president and the world's richest man

31:00

has begun to open, not just over

31:02

the tariffs, but the political blowback over

31:04

Doge. and the state Supreme Court election

31:06

in Wisconsin that Elon helped Republicans lose.

31:08

You wrote that Elon might be getting

31:10

the vague one to elaborate? Yeah, I

31:13

mean, he's getting the Vivic Rama Swami

31:15

treatment, you know, they're kicking him out.

31:17

I mean, my, the thing that I've

31:19

been very interested in is sort of

31:21

like, what, how does Trump see Musk's

31:23

utility to Trump? And over the last

31:25

few months, like the, like the feeling

31:27

that I have is that. Musk had

31:29

convinced Trump that Musk's technology in some

31:31

way was helping Trump and Trump's allies

31:33

win around the world. And it feels

31:35

to me like Wisconsin was like, no.

31:37

And so he's out. That's the only,

31:39

because I don't understand why Trump would

31:41

let Musk like run rampant for the

31:43

last three months. Like, it's so unlike

31:45

him. It is unlike him, and it's

31:47

unlike him to give someone else the

31:49

spotlight, though there's a weird part of

31:51

Trump in the second term where he

31:53

seems like. a little bit more chill

31:55

about everything because he has nothing much,

31:57

nothing else to lose. He's one again,

31:59

he's not running again, he might be

32:01

president again, he's not running again, and

32:04

he survived all this shit. And so

32:06

it's like, ah, Elon can run around.

32:08

But when it really starts getting him

32:10

bad press, that turns it a little.

32:12

Although I hadn't thought about the angle

32:14

that you wrote about, which is because

32:16

he thinks that Elon Musk is so

32:18

smart with computers, that maybe he could

32:20

like actually have something to do with...

32:22

voting machines or if not voting machines,

32:24

like I don't know, tweaking algorithms to

32:26

help him in elections and all that.

32:28

I mean, maybe I'm just sort of

32:30

like dreaming this scenario up in my

32:32

head, but I don't think it would

32:34

be very hard to convince former Twitter

32:36

addict Donald Trump that you now could

32:38

help him win by owning Twitter. Yeah.

32:40

And I think a lot of conservatives,

32:42

and this actually goes back to the

32:44

point you mentioned at the top of

32:46

the episode, which is like, I think

32:48

there is a massive chunk of prominent...

32:50

conservatives right now that believe that what

32:52

happens on X matters to anyone other

32:54

than them. Yeah, that is, I think

32:57

that's probably right. And I think he

32:59

just liked having people in his orbit,

33:01

right, that are rich and powerful and

33:03

if, loves it, and if, and if,

33:05

and if, if he doesn't have to

33:07

sacrifice much, to, and if, and if,

33:09

and if, and if, and if he

33:11

doesn't have to, and if he doesn't

33:13

have to, and if he doesn't have

33:15

to sacrifice, I wanted to ask to

33:17

ask you, I wanted to ask you,

33:19

I wanted to ask him, I wanted

33:21

to ask him, I wanted to ask

33:23

him, I wanted to ask him, to

33:25

ask him, to ask him, I wanted

33:27

to ask him, to ask him, to

33:29

ask him, to ask him, to ask

33:31

him, to ask him, to ask him,

33:33

to ask him, to ask him, to

33:35

ask him, to ask him, to ask

33:37

him, to ask him, to ask him,

33:39

to ask him, to ask him, to

33:41

You know, I think much less for

33:43

sure. I mean, I think that, you

33:45

know, I mean, he admitted today that

33:48

it was the bond markets that made

33:50

him, you know, walk back from the

33:52

terror regime. And, you know, I think

33:54

if like the economy, the world economy

33:56

collapsed, he is smart enough to know

33:58

that it is all on him. And

34:00

I think that's, you know, that's, so

34:02

that says something about how he's pressured

34:04

by public opinion. And I don't think

34:06

he just, I think he wakes up

34:08

everything he doesn't love bad press. It's

34:10

not like he cares much about what

34:12

the legacy media says about him. But,

34:14

you know, I do think if he's

34:16

seeing. Your port noise out there your

34:18

bill actmans or he turns on Fox

34:20

and Fox lets on a couple people

34:22

who are actually telling the truth and

34:24

starts complaining It's gonna be a nuisance

34:26

to him. I don't think it'll send

34:28

him into a rage like he used

34:30

to be in his first term But

34:32

I think there's there's something there and

34:34

then I think like if he loses

34:36

if the Republicans lose the midterms, you

34:39

know publicly he'll say Well, they're all

34:41

idiots anyway, and they didn't run on

34:43

the Trump agenda, right? But privately, I

34:45

think he'll take it as a rebuke,

34:47

and so that'll be a pressure point.

34:49

So I think there are fewer pressure

34:51

points to influence Trump or to have

34:53

public opinion pressure Trump than there ever

34:55

have been, but I think some of

34:57

them are still there. That feels so

34:59

good to think about, actually, that's like

35:01

going to help me hold on for

35:03

the next couple of months. I may

35:05

say that's good. So the impending end

35:07

of his special government role isn't the

35:09

only bad news for Elon this week.

35:11

Apparently, this is a great story in

35:13

the Daily Beast. On Saturday night, Musk

35:15

rage quit a video game live stream

35:17

after he was repeatedly and ruthlessly cyber-bullied

35:19

in the chat. Elon reportedly sat stone-faced

35:21

as commentators such as Elon Musk is

35:23

pathetic. That was one user's name, commented

35:25

things like, and these are all quotes.

35:27

You will always feel insecure and it

35:30

will never go away. Elon, how is

35:32

it possible to look this dumb and

35:34

ugly? Why is your Tesla company falling

35:36

apart? And my personal favorite, Elon Musk,

35:38

will you please jerk off Mr. Trump

35:40

so he dies of a heart attack?

35:42

What? What? Like I have to hand

35:44

it to people for just the creativity,

35:46

you know? It's so funny. It's so

35:48

funny. Why would he subject himself to

35:50

this and just and just stay there

35:52

and not do anything? I mean, he's

35:54

so obsessed with proving that he's a

35:56

real gamer. That's it, right? It's such

35:58

a thing for him. And like he

36:00

isn't. Like he's like there's a I

36:02

mean I you can find it on

36:04

YouTube but like these these YouTubeers did

36:06

like a whole video proving that he

36:08

does not understand the basic mechanics of

36:10

like the Diablo game that he plays

36:12

all the time quote unquote like he

36:14

makes decisions when he's streaming that aren't

36:16

possible don't make any sense like we

36:18

know this now that he's faking in

36:21

some way and it's it's clearly eating

36:23

him up inside which also feels really

36:25

good to think about. I was going

36:27

to ask you about this because I

36:29

was like sort of followed the video

36:31

game Elon scandal. How much is he

36:33

faking? Like does he, he clearly plays

36:35

a lot of video games, right? But

36:37

like, he's just, is he just faking

36:39

that he's as good as he wants

36:41

people to think he is? So, allegedly,

36:43

he streams, like he streams video games,

36:45

Diablo is one of them, this one

36:47

was I think Path of Exile 2

36:49

was the one he was the one

36:51

he was the one he was the

36:53

one he was the one he was

36:55

the one he was playing, and he

36:57

was playing, and he was playing, and

36:59

he was the one he was playing,

37:01

and he was the one he was

37:03

playing, and he was playing, and he

37:05

was, and he was, and he was,

37:07

and he was, and he was, and

37:09

he was, and he was, and he

37:11

was, he was, he was, he was,

37:14

he was, he was, he was, he

37:16

was, he was, he was, he was,

37:18

he was, he was People started to

37:20

notice that the times that he was

37:22

streaming like weren't possible with his schedule

37:24

or his tweeting They started to notice

37:26

that when he would then like get

37:28

defensive He would then do another stream

37:30

in which like like there's one video

37:32

where like his heads not Moving the

37:34

way the game should like it's like

37:36

it doesn't look like he's playing it

37:38

and then in this the the YouTube

37:40

breakdown that I watched which seems to

37:42

have been like the final kind of

37:44

like You know thing that broke this

37:46

open He describes like his one of

37:48

his builds for Diablo I believe it

37:50

is and the person who's playing is

37:52

like look like I've played Diablo like

37:54

for years and years and years like

37:56

this doesn't make any sense this isn't

37:58

how anyone would play it. Like the

38:00

words he's using don't even make sense

38:02

in the context of how he's using

38:05

them. Like, there's just no way that

38:07

anyone who plays this game seriously would

38:09

do this or act this way. And

38:11

it's just sort of snowballed from there.

38:13

Wow. He's just, I take too much

38:15

joy in stories like this about Elon

38:17

Musk because to me, the most, maybe

38:19

the most loathsome figure of Trump 2.0,

38:21

which is tough because Trump is way

38:23

up there, but just, it's, well, he's

38:25

just so embarrassing. I think it's also

38:27

like important like you know it's these

38:29

are very funny things to be talking

38:31

about but I do think it's really

38:33

important because like Musk in the 2000s

38:35

and the early 2010s like you know

38:37

he like has a cameo in in

38:39

Iron Man too yeah like he spent

38:41

he was a big bank theory he

38:43

spent a considerable amount of energy to

38:45

become this like nerd king as a

38:47

as it was and it was always

38:49

a PR thing. It was always this

38:51

idea of like, oh, I can sell

38:53

science fiction ideas to investors that I

38:56

don't actually have to make or figure

38:58

out how to do if I'm like

39:00

the nerd king of Silicon Valley or

39:02

whatever. And like now we know that

39:04

that's never really been true. Yeah, he

39:06

really really wanted to be Tony Star.

39:08

That's like that when he had that

39:10

comparison, that was the pinnacle for him

39:12

and he wanted to keep it. He

39:14

was not able to. Your

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41:19

All right, one more big piece

41:22

of news we have to cover

41:24

today. This afternoon, Sarawen Williams, former

41:26

director of Global Public Policy at

41:28

Facebook, testified before the Senate Judiciary

41:30

Subcommittee on Crime and Counterterrorism. The

41:32

testimony was Sarah's first public comment

41:34

since an arbitrator prohibited her from

41:36

promoting her book Careless People. Which

41:39

details allegation of sexual harassment and

41:41

reckless malicious behavior by the most

41:43

senior executives at the company now

41:45

known as meta In her opening

41:47

statement Sarah told the Senate subcommittee

41:49

that she quote saw meta executives

41:51

Repeatedly undermine US national security and

41:53

betray American values and that they

41:56

quote about what they were doing

41:58

with the Chinese Communist Party to

42:00

employees, shareholders, Congress, and the American

42:02

public. We have a few clips

42:04

of Missouri Senator Josh Holly questioning

42:06

Sarah. Americans who exchange messages or

42:08

other information with Chinese Facebook users,

42:10

that would mean the Chinese government

42:13

could get access to the American

42:15

data as well, is that correct?

42:17

Through the pop servers, potentially, yes.

42:19

And Facebook was willing to take

42:21

that risk. Yes, there was a

42:23

lot of discussion about this and...

42:25

Ultimately, yes. I mean, this is

42:27

extraordinary. This is exactly contrary to

42:30

what Facebook has represented for years.

42:32

Here they're willing to build data

42:34

centers, store data in China, they

42:36

are willing explicitly to give the

42:38

Chinese government access to it, and

42:40

if that means that American user

42:42

data is also compromised, they're willing

42:44

to do that too. Now he's

42:47

on Joe Rogan and says that

42:49

he is Mr. Free Speech, he

42:51

is Mr. Magga, he's a whole

42:53

new man, and his company, it's

42:55

a whole, they're a whole new

42:57

company, do you... by this latest

42:59

reinvention of Mark Zuckerberg? Senator, there

43:01

are two things. If he is

43:04

such a fan of freedom of

43:06

speech, why is he trying to

43:08

silence me? And the other thing

43:10

is that this is a man

43:12

who wears many different costumes. When

43:14

I was there, he, you know...

43:16

wanted the president of China to

43:18

name his first child. He was

43:21

learning Mandarin. That was, you know,

43:23

he was censoring to his heart's

43:25

content. Now his new costume is

43:27

MMA fighting or Kate, whatever, you

43:29

know, free speech. We don't know

43:31

what the next costume is going

43:33

to be, but it'll be something

43:35

different. It's whatever gets him closest

43:38

to power. Ouch. Would you make

43:40

of Sarah Win Williams testimony and

43:42

I don't know if you've... had

43:44

a chance to look at the

43:46

book yet or read some of

43:48

the reviews. I haven't had a

43:50

chance to look at the book,

43:52

but I will say I love

43:55

Josh Hollies. I just heard this

43:57

for the first time voice. Very

43:59

believable. That's extraordinary. I can't believe

44:01

what I'm hearing for the first

44:03

time right now And I do

44:05

love that he has got all

44:07

of the worst like Like all of

44:09

the reasons he's doing this are so

44:12

petty and awful, but it's like still

44:14

useful, I guess. I know, I hate

44:16

that, but it's, but I'll take it.

44:19

But I will say I was, I

44:21

was genuinely very shocked that this was

44:23

involving China. I mean, so much of

44:26

like my own reporting on meta products

44:28

over the years has been focused on,

44:30

you know, South Asia, Southeast Asia, Latin

44:33

America, you know, places where they're really

44:35

doing some serious, you know, social harm.

44:37

I had no idea. The book is

44:40

fucking wild and look she

44:42

has all the you know memos

44:44

emails Facebook messages to back

44:46

it up but they were they

44:48

offered the CCP like custom

44:50

tools that they would build them

44:53

to surveil their own

44:55

citizens dissidents in other

44:57

countries including our country

44:59

in Taiwan in Hong

45:01

Kong activists like all

45:03

of it they built

45:05

a physical pipe to connect the

45:07

United States and China, even though they were

45:09

warned that that like the Chinese government could

45:12

use it to spy in the United

45:14

States. That's unreal. I mean, I've definitely

45:16

heard of activists in Taiwan and Hong

45:18

Kong, like, you know, pre-covid talking about

45:21

not wanting to use matter products because

45:23

of fears about that. But just to

45:25

see the extent of it actually is

45:27

surprising, because I mean, it definitely makes

45:30

it clear that like Mark Zuckerbergberg's like

45:32

new, like, Jujitsu turn is like not...

45:34

anything, you know, other than trying

45:36

to get the Republicans off his back.

45:38

I also, the book made me realize that

45:41

the turn isn't anything because he's

45:43

always been someone who, and this is

45:45

a lot of those guys and the

45:47

tech founders, but they're authoritarians at heart,

45:50

right? Like in the sense that they

45:52

run their companies, like, you know,

45:54

everyone's gonna bow down to me and

45:56

do whatever I say and I don't get

45:58

like they treat their employees. like shit and

46:00

all that. But also, the way they

46:03

view politics and government and media is,

46:05

it's all just getting in the way

46:07

and democracy's messy and everyone making decisions

46:09

together is messy and thinking about what

46:11

harms you may cause is just like

46:14

a waste of time and it's inefficient

46:16

and they are geniuses and if you

46:18

just let them cook, they will fix

46:20

all the world's problems and everyone else

46:22

should just be happy about that. Yeah,

46:25

I mean Zuckerberg is I think the

46:27

best example of this of someone who

46:29

you know Let's let's take him at

46:31

his word Which is in the beginning

46:33

this he believed that like global connection

46:36

was a net positive and as they

46:38

discovered it wasn't as like the world

46:40

screamed back of them It's not they

46:42

kept going So like at this point

46:44

like he has no excuse like they

46:47

they are clearly in some sort of

46:49

long-term data or AI play and actually

46:51

that was a really fascinating part of

46:53

the the Testimony today, which was the

46:55

role that meta had with the launch

46:58

of Deep Seek. Yes. Which totally surprised

47:00

me. Also, like all of this is

47:02

actually not been on my radar. I

47:04

have to confess. And it's one of

47:06

the reasons, I believe, that Sarah decided

47:09

to like write the book and speak

47:11

out because she's now works in some

47:13

of the AI ethical issues and is

47:15

worried that like we're going to head

47:17

into the AI era with meta doing

47:20

the same shit that they did in

47:22

the social media error. So that is

47:24

my, that's actually been my long-term read

47:26

on AI to begin with, which is

47:28

that like... If you think all the

47:31

way back to like 2005, 2006, when

47:33

like social platforms are turning online, they

47:35

were offering people a less chaotic, less

47:37

anarchic version of the internet that you

47:39

could like put your credit card number

47:42

into and like talk to your real

47:44

life friends on. And now we're in

47:46

the same spot where like the social

47:48

platforms of the 2000s, 2010s are total

47:50

junk and they're being filled up with

47:53

AI content. And so now the AI

47:55

companies are going, well, actually you can

47:57

do everything you want to do inside

47:59

of our a wild garden. I think

48:01

it's the exact same move. Oh yeah.

48:04

And doesn't seem like we're gonna be

48:06

taking any of the lessons we've learned

48:08

or haven't learned from the social media

48:10

experiment and apply them to the AI.

48:12

So I've been dating several Instagram AI

48:15

bots. So I'm fine with this. I've

48:17

totally fine with it. It's fine for

48:19

me. But yeah, other people I'm worried

48:21

about. You still believe you'll find love.

48:23

And even though you're just playing the

48:26

field now. Hey, you know, you learn

48:28

the right prompts, you're good to go.

48:30

Like that's the AI age. Okay, one

48:32

more thing I want to talk about,

48:34

the hands-off protests that exploded across the

48:37

country over the weekend. I saw that

48:39

you wrote, you didn't really know they

48:41

were happening, and you're extremely online. I

48:43

will admit, I did not know they

48:45

were happening. Now, I... No way! I

48:48

know, and I felt bad about it,

48:50

because I'm like, politics is a big

48:52

part of my job, most of my

48:54

job. Now I was on... I was

48:56

on a family vacation last week so

48:59

I was gone Wednesday through Sunday, but

49:01

I still was like keeping up with

49:03

everything and I'm on Twitter all the

49:05

time and I didn't find them anywhere

49:07

until suddenly they were happening and then

49:10

I saw it everywhere. What did you

49:12

find out about why they didn't sort

49:14

of spread in the channels that we

49:16

would have expected? Yeah, so I admitted

49:18

to my readers like look like I

49:21

didn't know these were happening I live

49:23

in New York City I didn't hear

49:25

about this until like the night before

49:27

and so I asked everybody like how

49:29

did you guys know about it? And

49:32

some people were a little rude to

49:34

me. One person said that is one

49:36

person called me a brunch liberal, which

49:38

I thought was pretty funny. Devastated, right?

49:40

Yeah, devastating. But the answers that the

49:43

polite answers I received were really fascinating.

49:45

Like a lot of my readers told

49:47

me that their boomer parents told them

49:49

about them. Oh, which is super interesting.

49:51

A lot of local Facebook groups, some

49:54

blues guys, some read it, but you

49:56

have, it was people who are like

49:58

primarily really plugged into like activist spaces

50:00

on those sites. But it was like

50:02

the local news, Facebook pages, local Facebook

50:05

groups, some, like, some newsletters, like, kind

50:07

of like liberal nonprofit newsletters that people

50:09

are subscribed to. So it was a

50:11

very different kind of thing that I

50:13

think we've been trained to expect. And

50:16

honestly, I think kind of cool. Like

50:18

I think it's a cool way forward

50:20

for this stuff. But it definitely took

50:22

me by surprise. Well, it's interesting you

50:24

mention Facebook and in Boomer parents because

50:27

reading about reading through the coverage of

50:29

some of the rallies, I noticed. that

50:31

they were just they skewed older and

50:33

there was some commentary where people were

50:35

like I don't see a lot of

50:38

like Gen Z folks at these rallies

50:40

and then you know the people said

50:42

yeah that they were they were there

50:44

but I you know when I think

50:46

back to even 2017 resistance it is

50:49

like these you know it's the wine

50:51

moms or and sort of older MS

50:53

NBC watching parents that I do think

50:55

like that's what started it and then

50:57

it grew from there I do wonder

51:00

what it means like going forward for

51:02

organizing because you do want to get

51:04

the word out to younger people when

51:06

you're trying to organize rallies like this

51:08

in an opposition movement. So I've been

51:11

thinking about the hands-off protests in the

51:13

context of brat summer, which I think

51:15

is like a really fascinating dynamic where

51:17

and I actually wouldn't sort of... Think

51:20

of it in terms of like young

51:22

people versus old people, but actually like

51:24

a problem that Actually you kind of

51:26

alluded to it at the top today

51:28

of like how do we understand Popularity?

51:31

How do we understand what the internet

51:33

is now? And like is a tick-talk

51:35

view equivalent to a Facebook view like

51:37

is a tick-talk meme the same size

51:39

as like a boomer? Facebook page like

51:42

chain letter and and and and I

51:44

think The social media companies want us

51:46

to think yes But I think if

51:48

you look at like actual political manifestations

51:50

based on this stuff like they're not

51:53

like boomers like will come out and

51:55

they're gonna to make like the rudest

51:57

signs you've ever seen in your life

51:59

and they're going to spend all day

52:01

out there and like the brat summer

52:04

kids like aren't probably going to have

52:06

that level of intensity at least they

52:08

didn't. It's also distinguished probably by the

52:10

way each of the platforms work like

52:12

if you were organizing a rally it

52:15

seems like it would be easier to

52:17

organize on Facebook. than it is on,

52:19

that it would be on TikTok, just

52:21

because the way the algorithm is and

52:23

how, you know, you're getting individual videos

52:26

one after another on TikTok, but you're

52:28

not, it seems like it would be

52:30

harder to say, here's where this rally

52:32

is, spread the word, we're gonna, you

52:34

know, I don't know, am I wrong

52:37

about that or? You're not wrong, and

52:39

I, so indivisible, I think was one

52:41

of the main orgs behind hands off,

52:43

but there was a whole bunch, which

52:45

says like three things that they care

52:48

about. And then they were using mobile

52:50

dot. Mobileize. Mobileize. Yeah. So they were

52:52

using like an event tracking platform and

52:54

a Google doc. And you could basically

52:56

do a hands-off protest wherever you wanted.

52:59

And I think when you give people

53:01

those kinds of tools and then they

53:03

just throw them into the localized networks

53:05

that are already on Facebook or already

53:07

on Instagram or newsletters or whatever, you're

53:10

going to see a pop-off because like

53:12

people can just do what they want

53:14

now. So the decentralization I think is

53:16

like pretty key going forward. I think

53:18

it is key, especially at the early

53:21

stages, because I think getting a bunch

53:23

of different. you know, local chapters all

53:25

over the country in different parts with

53:27

people organizing around whatever issue they want

53:29

to organize around, like just to sort

53:32

of start getting the muscles working again,

53:34

I think is important. And then when

53:36

you want to organize it to something

53:38

more cohesive, you know, you can do

53:40

that down the road. But I thought

53:43

that I do think the decentralization is

53:45

really helpful to start because I think

53:47

people don't want necessarily to be like

53:49

part of a top down thing that

53:51

they have to join that's, you know,

53:54

the center of it which is like

53:56

far. away from them and that they

53:58

can't really see and don't know. I

54:00

was thinking about doing one where you

54:02

had to like buy an NFT to

54:05

join the process. I thought that'd be

54:07

kind of cool. Look, I mean, if

54:09

Soros can just get all these, pay

54:11

all these protesters at once and organize.

54:13

I was going to ask, are you

54:16

guys getting Soros? We are, you guys

54:18

getting Soros, we are, we do control

54:20

the global economy. Okay. Ryan Roderick. Thank

54:22

you so much for joining offline. This

54:24

was really fun. Everyone, go subscribe to

54:27

Garbage Day, if you don't already. It's

54:29

a fantastic newsletter. And you also have

54:31

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54:33

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54:35

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54:38

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54:40

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54:42

Same idea. So you can find out

54:44

anywhere you listen to stuff. But yeah,

54:46

thank you. This was super. This was

54:49

super. You know. All right, take care.

54:51

Thank you. Thank you. All right, before

54:53

we go, some quick housekeeping. If you

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54:57

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56:43

is a is a cricket media production. It's

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