14:00

You need to go see a what's

14:02

a spine that is not what

14:04

you want to hear about. No,

14:06

a spinal surgeon. Okay. Yeah. A

14:09

specialist and I went to

14:11

him and he took an MRI

14:13

of my neck and I have

14:15

what they call an impingement of,

14:18

I think it's C seven

14:21

C. Okay. I don't know. I have

14:23

so many C's in my neck that I'm

14:25

not sure which one it is, but it's

14:27

right above my shoulders. Okay. Probably the last

14:29

in the cervical vertebra. Yeah. Yeah. It's a

14:31

C for sure. It's good

14:33

enough for me. The impingement means that

14:36

my vertebrae are growing in on my

14:38

spinal column. So there's additional material being

14:40

added to the thickness of your vertebra,

14:42

right where you want to keep plenty

14:45

of space. Exactly. Where it's supposed to

14:47

be smooth. I have an

14:49

equivalent of like a bone spur. Darren Spine,

14:51

we gave you one job, protect his spinal

14:54

column. And now you're like

14:56

creating fortifications the wrong way. Yeah. Yeah.

14:58

Oh no. So I

15:01

don't know how it happened or, or what,

15:03

you know, it's not something that runs in

15:05

my family, but if

15:07

I were to have gone to

15:09

a chiropractor that doesn't do X-rays,

15:11

right? That could have been, Oh

15:14

no. Yeah. They could have

15:16

made it so much worse. We'll talk later about

15:18

some of these dangers that results even in death.

15:21

And yet that's not the kind of thing you want going on

15:23

there. Yeah. Thank goodness you got

15:25

away. Yeah. No chiropractors for me.

15:27

No roller coasters, no, uh, heavy

15:29

metal concerts. Yeah. Hold on.

15:31

Well, I'm just going to cancel the

15:34

surprise scare I had. I had one

15:36

of my friends stressing in a clown

15:38

costume right now. And don't scare Darren

15:40

all caps. Oh man. Wow.

15:43

Personal experience. Looking back on it.

15:45

I can only imagine how many

15:48

times a chiropractor has made

15:50

an adjustment on somebody without proper. I

15:52

saw one who recommended I go somewhere

15:54

else and get an X-ray. I saw

15:57

one who did X-ray me. And then

15:59

the. one we're going to talk

16:01

about in this conversation never even talked

16:03

about an x-ray. He didn't care. So

16:05

yeah, that's the big thing with chiropractors.

16:07

You never know what you're going to

16:09

get. Okay, so going back to 1895,

16:11

we're moving fast. Now

16:14

it's also the year that Louis Pasteur

16:16

died. So germ theory wasn't even fully

16:18

accepted yet. These are, think of these

16:20

as pre-scientific times. Clearly. Now he has

16:22

this term chiropractic. He founds the Palmer

16:24

School of Chiropractic and we've been talking

16:26

about the Cleveland School. That's a big

16:28

one. We've talked about life university, but

16:30

the original is Palmer and it's still

16:33

there. Have you made the connection between

16:35

hand practice and Palmer?

16:38

Wow. Why wouldn't he use his name

16:41

in the name of the thing? Right.

16:44

Missed opportunity. Palmer, I just

16:47

met her. This is why

16:49

you're here. To draw these connections.

16:51

Thank you. I've been staring at this

16:53

for weeks now and no,

16:55

I never noticed that. That's amazing. Okay,

16:57

so he founds the school. Then

17:00

in 1906, he gets prosecuted under

17:02

a new medical arts law in Iowa

17:04

for practicing medicine without a license. So

17:06

he goes to jail instead of paying

17:08

the fine. And so he's sitting there

17:10

in all his bearded glory saying, you

17:12

know, I'm not going to pay this.

17:14

I'm not here for a lack of

17:16

principle, but an abundance of principle. Oh.

17:18

And then a month later he pays

17:21

the fine and he gets out of

17:23

jail on principle. Yeah, I guess we

17:25

weren't supposed to remember that. So

17:27

after that, he sells the school to his

17:29

son, BJ. So BJ Palmer, and I

17:32

know you're going to work this in

17:34

somehow. I can see

17:36

Darren's eyes. No comment. Who had already

17:38

been one of his students was very

17:40

much involved in this and getting the

17:42

school off the ground. So now BJ

17:44

Palmer is the head of the Palmer

17:46

school of chiropractic. Didi wants to head

17:48

out West. He starts a school in

17:50

Oklahoma city. He starts another one way

17:52

off in Portland and neither of those

17:55

are particularly successful. So he comes back

17:57

to Iowa and instead of like figuring

17:59

out stuff. with his son, he

18:01

creates a competing school two blocks down

18:03

the road from his original school. So

18:05

he can compete with his son. Okay.

18:08

Complicated relationship, clearly. Okay,

18:10

so all of these laws keep popping up

18:12

and they're drawing increased scrutiny from these medical

18:14

professionals who are like, you know what? Germ

18:17

theory makes sense. What are you doing? Yeah.

18:19

None of that makes sense. He

18:21

realizes, well, there's one thing

18:23

government can't regulate and that's

18:25

a religion. Yep, you got

18:27

it. He says we

18:30

have to build a boat similar to Christian

18:32

science and hoist a religious flag. So this

18:34

is kind of like Elrond Hubbard, where you

18:36

can see someone who just knows the game

18:39

and how it works. Like, all right, well,

18:41

I guess religion's the business for me. I

18:43

am going to make this happen one way

18:45

or another. This is a quote from him.

18:48

We must have a religious head, one who

18:50

is the founder, as did Christ, Muhammad, Joseph

18:52

Smith, Mrs. Eddie, Martin Luther, and

18:55

others who have founded religions. I am the

18:57

fountain head. I am the founder of chiropractic

18:59

in its science, in its art, in its

19:01

philosophy, and in its religious phase. Wow.

19:04

Yeah. So this gets launched like as

19:06

a religion and even dug down a

19:08

little bit more. He said, I have

19:10

received this from another world. No one

19:12

else can claim this, not even BJ.

19:14

It's a little dig to his son.

19:16

There's the revelation. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Religious

19:19

revelation. And you have the spiritual component

19:21

as well, this whole idea of the

19:23

innate or the innate intelligence, like this

19:25

messaging that goes throughout the body with

19:27

the spine as it's conduit, but it's

19:29

really from God. That's what we're really

19:31

talking about. So how do you think

19:33

BJ gets back at him? Let's say you want to go.

19:35

Oh, I see you like, how would I

19:37

get back at my father? He

19:40

pulls a real surprise move. He

19:42

becomes a medical.

19:44

No, I'm not sure. He runs over his

19:46

father with a car. That's what I was

19:48

going to say next. That's what I was

19:50

going to say. Yeah. Okay. D.D.

19:53

Palmer on his deathbed blamed his son for

19:55

causing his death by hitting him with a car. And what

19:58

year was this? This would have been. Somewhere

20:00

around 1913. Okay, so

20:02

what kind of car are we talking about? Oh, good

20:04

question. I don't know. Yeah, hit Palmer

20:06

with a Packard. More of a tractor? Yeah,

20:09

yeah, well we have had Studebakers,

20:11

the Ford. When was the Model

20:13

T? Good question. If

20:16

only there were a way to find out. There's sadly

20:18

no way to find out. We should know this. I

20:20

just remember you can get any color as long as

20:22

you want black. Okay.

20:25

Okay, so there we go. Could have been a Model

20:27

T even. Certainly not a Model Sun. So

20:31

BJ now is the figurehead of chiropractic

20:33

and he's got a real business mind.

20:35

He says, you know, we're gonna do

20:37

advertising. We're gonna do expansion and salesmanship.

20:39

And that's the real focus, kind of

20:41

putting the religious thing a little bit

20:43

aside. Okay, okay. Oh, by the way,

20:46

this is BJ Palmer. Good

20:49

looking dude in his youth. BJ

20:51

Palmer looks like a guy who

20:53

served me coffee in Silver Lake.

20:55

Really? Okay. I

20:58

was gonna believe it. Put a pair of

21:00

glasses on that guy and an

21:02

apron. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh,

21:04

he's ready for Silver Lake for sure.

21:06

Oh yeah. And so not only is

21:09

he creating a bunch of new chiropractors

21:11

that are going out and applying their

21:13

hand practice, but also chiropractic becomes this

21:15

center of invention because there's

21:17

all these different tools that they make to

21:20

measure subluxations. Okay. So

21:23

we've got things like the

21:25

neurokilometer, which apparently

21:27

is just a glorified thermometer,

21:30

but they use that to be like, oh,

21:32

I'm seeing this rise in subluxations. You

21:34

know, think of pseudoscience devices. Sure, sure. Things

21:37

that click have needles. Right. We

21:39

need this tool, but we need it for the spine. Exactly.

21:42

Then they've got the Nervoscope. That one stuck

21:44

around for a long time. That's a great

21:46

name. Yeah. And you can, you

21:48

know, run it along someone's spine and get a

21:51

readout. And the tighter you hold it, the more

21:53

the needle moves. So, hey. Okay. Please

21:55

tell me it sounded like a theremin. Yeah.

21:58

Yeah. shouldn't do the Star

22:01

Wars theme because then people write me and

22:03

be like that actually was a synthesizer wreck.

22:05

Oh my god. Oh, that was accidental. Oh,

22:08

I gotta leave that in now. Me being an idiot.

22:10

Thank you. Oh my goodness. They

22:13

had all of these other, you know, inventions

22:15

like it looks like something you'd buy out

22:18

of the back of one of those little

22:20

whiz bang. Yeah, yeah, yeah. X-ray glasses or

22:22

something like they had the moire contour analysis.

22:24

They had the activator, the spring-loaded device that

22:26

if you don't want to use your hands

22:28

it can like prod them. I don't know.

22:30

I'm using it like a candle. Yeah, it's

22:32

very subtle. In fact, it'll come up in

22:34

this storytelling. They had one called the Atlas

22:36

adjustment that looked like a bandsaw for your

22:38

head. Like you put your head under it

22:41

and it taps you on this one particular

22:43

vertebra on the neck. All of these crazy

22:45

little devices. How fun would it have been

22:47

to be a machinist back then? Oh yeah,

22:49

just be like, we want it to do

22:51

what? Okay, I'll make it. Blueprints? These look

22:53

amazing. We can file a patent. No one's

22:55

gonna care. No strong FDA to come after

22:57

us. Exactly. Yeah, the wild west of ideas.

22:59

So I don't know, does like a device

23:01

where you kind of hold on to it

23:03

tightly and it moves the needle. Does that

23:06

sound at all familiar like something else we

23:08

might have heard of? Yeah. There's a

23:10

Scientology connection here. Okay. That's right. The

23:12

E-meter was created by a chiropractor. Volney

23:15

Matt, Volney Madison. It's easy for you

23:17

to say. No, it's not. But it

23:19

was just another one of these devices

23:21

like, Hey, you hold on to these

23:24

cans. It sends a circuit. You know,

23:26

he kind of had this device and

23:28

L Ron Hubbard incorporated it. And then

23:30

later on did his own hijinks to

23:33

kind of make sure Madison wouldn't get

23:35

any credit for it. And so it'd

23:37

become a Scientology device. But yeah, the

23:39

original design with the Wheatstone bridge and

23:41

all of that is original to a

23:44

chiropractor, making one of these devices. Of

23:46

course, don't worry. That won't be the

23:48

only Scientology connection. Oh yeah. And there's

23:50

some other devices as well. The Tuftness

23:53

device, toughness rhymes with softness. This was

23:56

one where like the operator rubs his

23:58

fingers on the detection plate. it'll feel

24:00

sticky if there's a subluxation nearby. It's

24:05

cut and dried, really. I mean, these

24:07

are obvious. What else you got? That's

24:09

one that the FDA went after and

24:11

tried to confiscate from chiropractors who were

24:13

still using this decades later. And to

24:15

some success, I imagine. Yeah. Right?

24:18

When you have a mode of treatment like

24:20

this that just relies on things going away

24:22

on their own sometimes. Right. Yeah,

24:25

I'm sure it looked very successful and had plenty of ardent

24:27

adherence. Sure. I

24:29

saw 43% of chiropractors in the US who

24:32

use applied kinesiology. We've talked about that on the

24:34

podcast. Yeah, remind me with it. That's the one

24:36

where you go to a mall and they have

24:38

you stand on one foot and they want to

24:40

sell you something that increases your balance. And so

24:42

they'll have you hold onto this and they'll kind

24:44

of push down on your arm. And

24:46

depending on how they push down on your arm,

24:49

you can either remain rock solid or. Wasn't

24:52

there a bracelet fad? Yes. That

24:54

was. Yeah, the power balance bracelet. Or

24:56

like two thousand something like that. Yeah, power balance

24:58

was a big business and they

25:00

would sell them for like 20 bucks a

25:02

pop. And then you had like all these

25:05

celebrities wearing basketball players. And then a million

25:07

knockoffs of course of other balance bracelets. And

25:09

that's very much a, I've had success with

25:11

it. I don't know how it works, but

25:13

you should buy one too. Right.

25:15

I think there's kind of a psychological

25:17

need there to sort of justify your

25:20

sunk cost. Yeah. By telling other

25:22

people how great it was. Well, I'm not an

25:24

idiot for spending 40 bucks on this. Right. And

25:27

it worked for. Kobe Bryant. So I've

25:29

got his shoes. I've got his jersey. Okay. I

25:32

might as well buy the balance band. Yeah, exactly. Was it him

25:34

who was doing that? No, I don't know. I just picked a.

25:37

Anyways. There was like a big

25:39

basketball player who was a fan of that. Okay,

25:41

so shooting forward quite a bit in time. We

25:43

had Scientology who's kind of in a similar boat,

25:46

trying to get off the ground, trying to claim

25:48

to be a religion to sort of get around

25:50

some of these restrictions and oversights. And they saw

25:52

what was happening with chiropractic with all of these

25:55

lawsuits and the medical establishment trying to take them

25:57

down. And so Scientology

25:59

sent. spies into various

26:01

organizations as we already know that

26:03

they did with the IRS, Operation

26:05

Snow White, to learn all they

26:07

could about like these machinations, these

26:09

plans to take down chiropractic because

26:11

they were similarly paranoid that the

26:13

psychiatric association was coming after Scientology.

26:16

Right. So there was a whistleblower,

26:18

this guy who went as sore

26:20

throat, who embedded

26:23

himself with the AMA and

26:25

got evidence of their plan

26:27

to eliminate the chiropractic industry. And

26:29

because of him, there was this

26:31

legal case and initially Chester Wilk

26:33

lost the legal case against the

26:35

AMA, but later on on appeal,

26:38

he was able to get the

26:40

case turned against the AMA because

26:42

of the Sherman Antitrust Act, which

26:44

was essentially, hey, don't get in

26:46

the way of commerce. Right. These

26:48

people, that's a business, they're earning

26:50

money, they're making jobs. Even if

26:52

it harms people. Yeah. Or is

26:55

baseless. A little little problem in

26:57

our legal maneuvering there.

26:59

So the Scientologists again kind

27:01

of played a role in chiropractic, you

27:03

get using my own term in

27:06

helping chiropractic bloom and continue

27:08

where it could well have

27:10

ended. Yeah. Oh yeah. I

27:12

have listened to. Yeah.

27:14

Going clear. Yes. About five

27:16

or six times. Oh wow.

27:19

Oh, I'm always interested in that when someone

27:21

keeps coming back to a book. Tell me

27:24

about that. Well, it is so packed with

27:26

the history and just

27:28

the breakdown of the rise

27:31

of L. Ron Hubbard and the

27:33

different avenues he tried and

27:36

his success as a fiction writer

27:39

and how that influenced him making

27:41

stuff up. And it's

27:44

fascinating to me. I'm not sure

27:46

everyone would really dig all

27:48

of this, pulling all these

27:51

threads. Yeah. But it is

27:54

unreal how much of an

27:56

empire he built

27:58

and the, the. psychological torture,

28:01

basically, that some of these

28:04

adherents went through and

28:06

the evolution of it, knowing from, hey,

28:09

this is kind of a, what do

28:11

they call it? Like a sex magic.

28:14

Yeah. Right. You know, he

28:16

hung around with. Speaking of borrowing.

28:18

What is his name? Jack Parsons. Nope.

28:21

Aleister Crowley. Aleister Crowley. Yeah.

28:24

Was the head of that group, the Ordo Templi Orientist. And

28:26

those guys all hung around and, you know,

28:29

had orgies of them. Whatnot. Into

28:31

Scientology. Yeah. Yeah. He

28:34

ran off with Jack Parsons girlfriend. That was his

28:36

second wife that he, well, he was a bigamist

28:38

for a while. He was married to two women.

28:40

Yeah. Sure. I'm with you. I

28:43

love these stories because not only because the

28:45

history itself is fascinating and just the course

28:47

of events, but also the human nature of

28:49

it, because normally neither of us would think

28:52

to do these things because they're wrong. But

28:55

also we would think other people would catch us or

28:57

realize what we were doing. Yeah. The

28:59

struggles of society would spring up and

29:01

stop us. The confidence. Yeah. Yeah.

29:04

The chutzpah. Yeah. That's

29:06

what always amazes me. Like, how could you do that?

29:08

Like, we're going to infiltrate the IRS. I feel like

29:10

there's so many things, so many little alarms that would

29:12

go off and just not allow me to carry out

29:14

those actions. Right. So what are

29:17

you as a human L. Ron Hubbard

29:19

or D.D. Palmer that you can execute

29:21

on that? Yeah. Yeah. I

29:23

find it fascinating. All of

29:25

this is fascinating with the chiropractic

29:27

because it's all kind of of

29:29

the same origins. Yeah. We're

29:33

going to try this. And oh, we got

29:35

away with it. Well, let's expand. Yeah. And

29:38

you can't explain it. Yeah. And

29:40

this particular setback didn't stop us. We're going to keep

29:42

going. Yeah. There's got to

29:44

be something here. It's really fascinating. Yeah. I

29:46

feel like those types of people have really shaped

29:49

society, I would say for

29:51

the worst, I mean, they're interesting at least

29:54

the Donald Trump's of the world, the

29:56

Joseph Smith's of the world, just these people who can

29:58

just kind of say, you know what? going to

30:00

run forward with this, create my own reality

30:02

and see what happens. And that was a

30:04

big thing in Trump's campaign was he says

30:06

the things that we're afraid to say, you

30:08

know, that no other politician will say. Yeah.

30:11

It's like, well, yeah, because it's beneath

30:13

the office of the president. Yeah. Oh,

30:16

well, this is the first time anyone has gone after

30:19

a president like this. Yeah. It's

30:21

the first time any president has broken all these norms.

30:23

There's a reason for that. Oh my

30:25

goodness. Well, balls on that. Yeah,

30:27

exactly. Okay. So that

30:29

reminds me of another Scientology connection because L

30:32

Ron Hubbard was borrowing ideas

30:34

from Ordo Templi Orientis and

30:37

chiropractic. One of the major

30:39

thoughts within Scientology that we learned about

30:41

very early on in our investigation

30:43

was MEST, the matter, matter, energy,

30:45

space, and time. And turns

30:47

out that was in Dee Dee Palmer's book.

30:49

He's the one who came up with MEST

30:51

and spoke of it very metaphysically. Same

30:54

idea, same concept, just ripped

30:56

by L Ron Hubbard and incorporated into Scientology.

30:58

There's got to be something to it then.

31:01

Yeah. Right. I mean,

31:03

I mean, it works for you. Two chaos agents can't be wrong.

31:09

Okay. And then here's my final

31:12

Scientology connection that persists to this

31:14

day. You've maybe heard of WISE,

31:16

the World Institute of Scientology Enterprises.

31:19

Okay. One of the front

31:21

groups of Scientology, and they'll do their

31:23

best to promote this, use this without

31:26

mentioning Scientology so

31:28

they can sell it to people. But

31:31

it's this series of business practices, business

31:33

tech, that they'll go shop around to

31:35

different companies and say, like

31:37

a corporate flavor of Scientology. This is

31:39

how you manage your books. This is

31:42

how you manage your sales. This is

31:44

how you increase your profits. So

31:46

yeah, they take your staff away for a weekend,

31:48

train them on this thing, and then now you're

31:51

running on the WISE principles. And

31:53

the businesses that use it

31:55

most are generally Dennis office,

31:57

chiropractors. There's a few others. do

32:00

they charge you for the seminars? But

32:03

once you start making money, they

32:06

get a percentage of that? Is that? Yeah,

32:08

are there some sort of like ongoing payment plan? I

32:10

don't know, they're using their own tech to get money

32:12

out of you. Maybe to

32:14

maintain certificate status or something

32:17

like that. I just

32:19

wanna know, cause I'm gonna start my own. This

32:22

sounds brilliant. Yeah, stay away from them. I

32:24

learned a lot about this on the fair

32:26

game policy with Leah Remini and Mike Rinder.

32:30

They were talking about the wise

32:32

practices and how yet again, chiropractic

32:34

is another connection with Scientology, it's

32:36

just kind of crazy. Oh, and

32:38

just to drive home the really important

32:41

piece of the wise connection, one

32:43

of WISE's business practices that they

32:45

recommend is getting people on a

32:47

repeat visitor plan, a schedule. Yes,

32:49

yes. And so if you go

32:51

to the chiropractor and they immediately

32:53

recommend come back for 60 visits,

32:56

probably a good sign that they're signed up with WISE.

33:00

Yeah, you had mentioned that it felt kind of like joining a

33:02

gym and that is brilliant.

33:04

It really is. Just like a gym, that's

33:06

a very good analogy. People will sign up

33:08

for it and then they often won't take

33:11

advantage of all the services. So free money

33:13

paid upfront, no refunds. And how many subscriptions

33:15

do you have that you haven't canceled? Right.

33:18

Oh man, I put stuff down on

33:20

my calendar. Like you will cancel this

33:22

Audible Gold subscription on September 10th, the

33:24

day before our renews. How do I

33:26

have $10,000 on my American Express? Yeah,

33:29

that's how they get you because we're all busy living

33:32

life and we don't have time to track all these

33:34

little bleeding by a thousand cuts to go to all

33:36

the streaming. I'm pointing at my

33:38

TV, the streaming services. I was so proud

33:40

of myself for having never owned cable and

33:42

now I pay probably the

33:45

equivalent. Okay,

33:47

so now that we know a little bit

33:49

more about the history, I wanted to tell

33:51

you about my most recent visit to first

33:54

chiropractic in Burbank. Okay. Not very far away.

33:56

It's like literally just a few blocks down

33:58

this way. So Kerry found... this

34:00

guy who runs this business all by himself

34:02

and Thought that he might match

34:05

kind of what I was looking for with

34:07

someone more on the woo We yeah, yeah

34:09

spectrum who also practice KST

34:11

which I'd heard about I guess what that is. Yeah,

34:13

please do Kevin

34:17

sat there. That's exactly right

34:19

Krispy Kreme No,

34:23

there's an extra letter in there

34:25

yeah, yeah, yeah see improv teacher

34:27

yeah Corin

34:30

specific technique and

34:32

I've Corin Corin K. O R E N

34:34

Oh, okay. It's a guy's name. Oh, okay.

34:37

I see. Oh, by the way I just

34:39

want to put this out there in the

34:41

world that if I ever do Somehow succumb

34:43

to the temptation to create my own chiropractic

34:46

business. It's gonna be called the neck cracker

34:48

suite Yes,

34:52

okay Thank you focus group.

34:54

That was just the reaction I was looking for Alright

34:57

I better get busy with that. Yes, it's mine.

34:59

You can't use it Okay,

35:03

so we'll talk more about KST which every

35:05

time I say that it makes me think

35:07

of KSW keep Scientology working I was thinking

35:09

of fried chicken KFC. Yeah, but that is

35:12

not a real Scientology connection there a lot

35:14

of When you have

35:16

initials for things? Yes initialisms instead of what

35:18

it is Yeah, it's it's an acronym if

35:20

you can say it out right as a

35:23

word Right, but if you just have to

35:25

say the letters cuz it's so like, you

35:27

know the FCC. How do you pronounce that?

35:32

It's an initialism And

35:36

that is heavy in

35:38

Scientology totally the KRC

35:40

triangle And I believe

35:42

that goes back to his naval experience

35:44

Oh, yeah, and boy the whole thing is

35:47

suffused with all this kind of pseudo military

35:49

Naval language and of course the

35:51

sea org. Yeah wearing uniforms. Okay,

35:54

so I set off to meet I'm

35:57

gonna call him. Dr. Silver Fox So

36:00

I wondered in there for my first appointment after

36:02

calling him up and him checking and making sure

36:04

that no, they do not take my insurance. Okay.

36:07

I have the Cigna plan at work. Okay. Yeah.

36:09

You're with the unions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You get

36:11

the good insurance I used to get. Yeah. But

36:13

yeah, he didn't take that. So it was going

36:15

to be $120 for the first visit. And

36:18

I wandered on in down the street. So

36:20

I was taking photos of the outside and

36:22

then I got in there and you know,

36:24

this is Ross's dream. There's no one at

36:26

the front desk or visible in the office.

36:28

So I just start taking a bunch of

36:30

photos. So I was casing the joint and

36:33

oh yeah, welcome to our chiropractic office. This

36:35

is all hand calligraphy. The purpose of our

36:37

clinic is to support as many people as

36:39

possible in their quest for health and to

36:41

educate them about chiropractic. So they may in

36:43

turn educate others. I like how they led

36:45

with as many people as

36:47

possible expansion, good business. Absolutely. And then

36:50

to help them with their health.

36:52

Right. That's the secondary benefit. Sure. Sure.

36:54

Yeah. If it happens, great. You

36:57

can see like a bunch of patient files there.

36:59

You can already see this was a running gag

37:02

with the other chiropractors is that they'd always like

37:04

just change their name or they had some other

37:06

chiropractic business. So all of a sudden I see

37:08

a sign for shape chiropractic. I'm like, who the

37:11

hell are they? Turns out it's another one that

37:13

runs in the same building. Okay. He loans out

37:15

spaces to other doctors again to, you know, kind

37:17

of pay the rent and all of that. So

37:20

finally he does step out and I meet doctor

37:22

again, I'm going to call him silver fox and

37:25

he is a gentleman maybe in

37:27

his sixties, I would say. Okay. Vaguely,

37:29

he had kind of a doctor Anthony

37:31

Fauci vibe to me. He seemed very

37:33

reliable, very calm. I don't know. I

37:35

liked him right off the bat. Okay.

37:37

A good bedside manner. Yeah. And I'm

37:40

already seeing like all of these brochures

37:42

for various KST things. I've laid them

37:44

out in front of you. I

37:46

also love to grab brochures from people. I like to

37:48

see if I recognize any of these stock. Oh, like

37:51

you might know some of the actors. Yes. I know

37:53

a lot of actors in this town. And so it's

37:55

like, Oh, you did the KST brochure. That

37:58

would be amazing. I don't see it. Guess where I

38:00

just saw you the other day. That's

38:02

so funny. So as I was

38:04

waiting for him to come out, I noticed that there

38:07

was a closed circuit TV monitor over there where like

38:09

you could see different parts of the office including me.

38:12

I was like, uh oh. Because I've been

38:14

walking around taking photos. I look so suspicious.

38:16

Well, here's the thing. I'm wondering,

38:18

should I just leave? I have a 15 year old daughter. She

38:21

takes pictures and movies of everything everywhere

38:23

she goes. Oh, I like that

38:25

spirit. And I have a lot of pictures and gigs and gigs

38:27

of terabytes of... And how old

38:30

is she now? Wow.

38:32

Okay. So... This is gonna be

38:34

a lifelong problem. It's a societal problem. Yo, sure. Where,

38:37

you know, I'm afraid... Over storage. That there

38:39

are things I did in my youth. Yeah.

38:42

That if they were recorded by every

38:44

one of my friends, I

38:47

wouldn't be able to live with my... Right. That

38:50

is a problem. But so I don't

38:52

think you stuck out as much as you think you

38:54

did. Well, good. Let's hope so. And he didn't say

38:56

anything about it. He didn't treat me any differently. That's

38:59

fascinating about your daughter, who is more famous

39:01

than either of us. But we'll just leave

39:03

it there. I imagine he assumed it was

39:05

for your YouTube channel or, you

39:07

know, everyone has a TikTok. If he saw me.

39:10

But later on, I realized every other room he

39:12

took me to, there's a TV on the screen

39:14

where you can see out in the lobby. Okay.

39:17

Because he wants to be able to like see if

39:19

someone showed up to talk to him. Sure, sure. It's

39:21

a one man operation type of thing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

39:23

There's a little story behind that. But

39:25

he hands me the usual battery of

39:27

forms to fill out. So I'm doing

39:29

that whole thing. I'm giving him my

39:31

private information. I'm kind of recounting what

39:33

I've talked about with my lower

39:36

back pain that sort of spread out to

39:38

my leg. He asked if

39:40

there was a moment of injury, which I thought

39:42

was interesting. And I said, yeah, not really that

39:45

I can recall. Like I've fallen a couple of

39:47

times while running. Maybe that did it. But it

39:49

made me think, as I was

39:51

looking at this this morning of our friend Trent,

39:53

Corey, the director at Disney. Yeah. Did you see

39:55

his injury? Did you talk to him about that?

39:58

He was just like running up and down. He's

40:00

a very athletic guy. Yeah, young guy,

40:02

good looking guy, looks like he could

40:04

be a linebacker. Great build, yeah, exactly.

40:07

And suddenly his Achilles tendon snapped. Yep,

40:09

just rolled up like a window shade.

40:12

Oh, that's so horrifying, such

40:14

a horrible mental image. And here I am,

40:16

I've just turned 42 recently, and he said,

40:19

well, you know, I can't even say it was a

40:21

particular moment, or I wish I could say I stepped

40:23

along or I bumped into something. No, it's

40:25

just I'm 35 now. I was

40:27

like, God, no, don't

40:30

say that. I'm now

40:32

that person who gets upset at the whippers,

40:35

like, don't you dare, don't you

40:37

dare. Yeah, I have

40:39

a heel spur, which

40:41

affects what I can do physically. I

40:44

have gout, speaking of old

40:46

man feet, and plantar fasciitis. Oh

40:51

my goodness. So sometimes I have

40:53

a cane. So we're not going running anytime soon.

40:56

I'm a runner. I hike a lot,

40:58

but one fascinating thing is that I

41:00

changed my diet. Yeah. Because

41:03

you're supposed to avoid uric acid

41:05

or something. Oh, okay. Foods that generate

41:07

that in your feet. That create the extra storage

41:09

from the gout. And I haven't had

41:11

as much problems with it. Oh, hey,

41:14

professional medical advice works sometimes. Well,

41:16

yeah. That's great. I

41:19

went to the doctor and they gave me

41:21

a list of foods to avoid,

41:24

foods to avoid, and foods to

41:26

benefit certain health problems

41:28

that I have. Oh, okay. And they're

41:30

like three different lists. Oh, so you

41:32

have to look at the overlap. So

41:35

I made a grid of- Where

41:38

do these overlap? Yeah, these are the foods

41:40

that are, these are all the foods, and

41:42

these are the ones I can't have. If

41:45

it's negative on one list, I cross it off

41:47

on the positive on another list, which

41:49

brings me down to, you know, I

41:51

can eat blueberries, basically. I

41:54

mean, they're good, but- That's bulletproof. Oh,

41:58

man. For any of my- my ailments, but

42:00

I'm sure that if I were to be

42:03

brought in on a health questions,

42:05

yeah, I'm sure the way I walk

42:08

affects my spine and I do work

42:10

at a desk every day. Yeah. Oh,

42:12

absolutely. There are ergo problems and because

42:15

I do like needlework or, you know,

42:17

detailed hobby things. Yeah. I said he

42:19

was a cross stitcher. I was serious

42:22

though. Like impressive

42:24

stuff. Oh, well, thank you. Yeah.

42:26

He got started on that with the

42:28

record, Ralph, because we were doing eight

42:30

bit pixel characters. Yeah. And I was

42:33

walking past a needlework store

42:36

and I saw a cross stitch pattern. I

42:38

thought those are pixels. I guess totally totally

42:40

do record Ralph in that. And it

42:43

was so it was a super detailed

42:45

piece to with Ralph running with all

42:47

of the princesses. So yeah, yeah, that

42:49

was a major effort. Yeah, it was

42:51

it was probably about three feet by

42:54

two feet. But one thing that drew

42:56

to me was it's very tactile and

42:58

I could touch it and I could

43:00

manipulate it with my hands, which I

43:02

do computer animation. So everything in the

43:05

world is in a screen. I

43:07

can't touch any of the things

43:09

that I'm animating. Yeah. And when

43:11

I first started in CG animation,

43:14

I had claustrophobic dreams because

43:17

all day I was trying to manipulate this

43:19

thing that I couldn't get at. And you're

43:21

trying to touch like a mouse and make

43:23

this dinosaur because you started on dinosaurs at

43:26

Disney. Yeah, that was in 2000 before

43:29

that. Right. So it came out in 2000. No, 1996. Last

43:34

century. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

43:36

But yeah, I sit at a desk

43:38

all day and you have to you

43:41

know, I'll get nerve shit in my

43:43

shoulder or in my elbow and it's

43:45

there's a price to pay for all

43:47

of that. Yeah, absolutely. So so the

43:49

most interesting form here, of course, is

43:51

always the informed consent one for chiropractic

43:53

treatment. What does that mean? Approximately

43:55

30 percent of patients experience slight

43:58

increased pain in the treated. area,

44:01

possibly due to minor strain of muscle,

44:03

tendon, or ligament gets more interesting in the

44:05

next paragraph. Serious bodily

44:07

harm is extremely rare and not

44:09

an inherent risk of chiropractic treatment.

44:11

Many variables can adversely affect one's

44:13

health, including previous injury, medications, osteoporosis,

44:16

cancer, it goes on. Cerebrovascular.

44:19

I love that word. Yeah, you're right.

44:21

I need to find more excuses to use that just in daily life. It

44:24

could result in serious adverse effects

44:27

such as fracture, dislocation, aggravation

44:29

of previous injury to ligaments, intervertebral

44:32

discs, nerves, or spinal

44:34

cord. Symptoms

44:36

of stroke. That's one of the real

44:38

dangers. Or cerebrovascular injury. Yep,

44:40

there you go. Alert

44:43

patients to seek medical and or chiropractic

44:46

care. No, don't get more

44:48

chiropractic care when they harm you. How did

44:50

you get this? From your friend on this

44:52

thing. Yeah, exactly. Oh, don't worry.

44:54

We'll fix you right up. Sign this

44:56

consent. Yeah. Oh, another

44:58

one. Oh, no. Yeah, there are

45:00

some bad stories there. So essentially they say

45:03

it's kind of on YouTube and form

45:05

us of any serious contraindications you have.

45:08

So I fill out all these forms and he kind of reads them

45:10

over in front of me and then shows

45:12

me this this little welcome video that looks

45:14

like it was shot in the early 2000s,

45:17

maybe. Okay. Maybe

45:19

late 1990s. The short video will provide you

45:21

with information about today's visit and what you

45:24

can expect. Chiropractic

45:27

is based on the premise that a

45:30

properly functioning spinal column is a necessary

45:32

component of good health. Your

45:34

spinal column is made up of

45:37

24 immovable bones separated by cushioning

45:39

intervertebral discs that act as shock

45:41

absorbers for the spine. Just

45:44

as the skull provides the protective

45:46

covering around the brain, your spinal

45:48

column gives protection to your spinal

45:50

cord. From the

45:53

front, your spine should be straight,

45:55

much like supporting beams. And

45:57

from the side, your spine is composed of

45:59

three. curves, one in the neck,

46:02

one in the middle back, and one

46:04

in the lower back. Injuries,

46:07

everyday activities, or poor posture

46:09

can cause the spinal bones

46:11

to lose their proper position,

46:13

which causes nerves to become

46:15

irritated, setting the stage

46:18

for spinal problems, including pain.

46:21

During the initial examination, problem areas

46:23

of the spine are identified and

46:26

their role in contributing to your

46:28

current condition are considered. Your

46:30

spinal balance will be assessed by analyzing

46:32

your labeling to get an idea of

46:35

the symmetry of your foundation. When

46:38

your body is found to be out

46:40

of balance, the doctor will deliver a

46:42

chiropractic adjustment into the problem area using

46:45

a special handheld instrument called

46:47

an activator. This

46:49

instrument was specifically designed to

46:52

deliver a precise, quick thrust

46:54

that is gentle, safe, and

46:56

specific. The thrust

46:58

delivered by the instrument is so

47:00

quick that it accelerates ahead of

47:03

the body's tendency to tighten up

47:05

and resist the adjustment. These

47:07

adjustments are thought to reset your system,

47:09

in a sense like pressing the reset

47:12

button on a wall element. The

47:14

desired effect is to provide

47:16

you with effective pain relief

47:18

and improved function. Periodic re-examinations

47:20

will be performed to chart

47:22

your progress. Specific exercises

47:25

and home care measures will be suggested

47:27

to aid in your recovery. And

47:29

how long you decide to benefit from chiropractic

47:32

care is up to you. Chiropractic

47:35

care has helped millions of patients over the 100 plus

47:38

years, and we have every

47:40

reason to believe that you too should have

47:42

hope of returning to a normal lifestyle. Welcome

47:45

to chiropractic. And

47:47

then I realized that it came from first

47:49

chiropractic, and I thought, wait

47:51

a second, this first chiropractic? No, it's one

47:54

in Arizona. So I'm

47:56

guessing there's a connection there. I think he bought

47:58

their materials to be like an out- franchise.

48:00

Yeah, exactly. And he uses their

48:02

little activator gun. Okay. So he's

48:04

got a relationship with them. They

48:06

produce this fine, fine video from.

48:08

Speaking of Scientology. Yeah, this right

48:10

screen grab right there looks like

48:13

it came out of gold base.

48:15

Totally. Yeah, I'm showing Darren this

48:17

picture of this young confident man

48:19

in a suit with a glowing

48:22

x-ray behind him. Perfect hair. Telling

48:24

us all about what we can

48:26

expect from chiropractic. When you're on

48:29

these investigations. Yeah. Are

48:31

you choosing his words? Are

48:34

you constantly trying

48:36

to remember what is happening for this

48:38

breakdown? Yes, absolutely. Are you taking any

48:40

notes? I'm taking notes whenever I can.

48:42

Recording stuff? Yeah, whenever I can record,

48:44

I record. Whenever I can take notes,

48:46

I take notes. Oftentimes I'll just sit

48:48

down afterward and do like a half

48:50

hour jam session of trying to capture

48:52

everything I can. Does that ever bleed

48:54

into other things in your life? Where

48:57

you were like, I need to remember every moment

48:59

of this for later.

49:01

Yes. Yeah. And then sometimes I

49:03

really just have to talk myself out of that behavior and

49:05

realize it's not important to remember what's happening

49:08

in this meeting. No one's going to quiz

49:10

you later on, on like everything that happened.

49:12

I read this book called building a second

49:14

brain and it's all about that. Like, that's

49:16

so something Didi Palmer

49:18

was there. Right. Well, it's all

49:20

about like, you know, externalizing your memory, kind of

49:22

like your daughter's already doing just that we have

49:25

this expectation that we can kind of go back

49:27

and retrieve anything because our brains are no good

49:29

for that. Yeah. Or very little good for that.

49:31

And so there's all these ways that if we

49:34

take efficient notes, just the process of taking notes

49:36

kind of will reinforce information in our heads, but

49:38

it'll also tell us where you can go later

49:40

if you need to access that information, which gives

49:42

you a little bit of release. Okay. Like, Oh,

49:45

I don't need to short term store all of

49:47

this because now I know it exists somewhere. Okay.

49:49

Yeah. I can jog my memory later. So certainly

49:51

for these investigations. Yeah. We use all these different

49:53

methods to give ourselves tools later to kind of

49:56

get ourselves back in the right frame of mind.

49:58

I did like that he compared these

50:00

spinal adjustments to hitting the reset

50:03

on a wall outlet. Okay.

50:07

I don't know what to do with that analogy. I don't

50:09

know if it's a good one. Yeah. Huh.

50:12

And he did say how long you continue

50:14

is up to you. So you

50:16

get to choose how long this care

50:18

continues. Yeah. Which I thought was

50:20

also... Well, it's in your court. Yeah. You know, I

50:22

feel like there's often pressure to... Oh,

50:25

of course. ...continue engagement. Is there

50:27

any equivalence to

50:30

you don't have enough faith or

50:32

the more you come to church? Yeah.

50:35

Certainly they use that kind of tactic. Like

50:37

if you have increased pains afterward,

50:39

like you say, I went home now I

50:42

had like new pain in my bag. Then

50:44

they'll say, oh, well, sometimes that's part of

50:46

the process as your body starts

50:48

to adapt to these adjustments that we're making

50:50

over time. So that's perfectly normal. Yeah. Yeah.

50:52

Yeah. Yeah. It seems very when you join

50:54

a gym, look, this is what

50:57

you make it. And as much as you come

50:59

in, then that's the benefits you'll see. Now it's

51:02

shifted on you. Yeah. You are... Now

51:05

you've joined, you have to do the work.

51:07

Yeah. And I mean, there is a certain

51:09

logic to that. Oh, yeah. I mean, there's

51:11

truth in that completely. But it can be

51:13

taken to a place of that's

51:15

our outlet for anything that doesn't work. Oh, well, you

51:17

just haven't been working hard enough, which like you say

51:19

is kind of like, well, you didn't

51:21

have enough faith. Yeah. So I asked

51:24

him where he studied chiropractic. And

51:26

of course, of course, he said

51:28

Cleveland Chiropractic College in

51:30

Los Angeles. And this was many years ago. He's been

51:32

doing this for 40 years. I

51:34

was curious because this is now like the

51:36

third person that we've encountered in a row

51:38

who was trained at the Cleveland College.

51:40

So he had attended in Los Angeles

51:42

many years ago and he even copped

51:45

up to the fact that they had

51:47

closed. And he said, you know, maybe

51:49

they just weren't getting enough tuition, probably

51:51

financial reasons. He wasn't sure. So,

51:53

of course, they were an offshoot of

51:55

the original Cleveland Chiropractic College, which would

51:58

be located in Cleveland, Ohio. distance

58:00

when you're at a chiropractors. So, you

58:02

know, the walls are this kind of

58:04

pea green shade. There's a computer with

58:06

all these lovely images of like beaches

58:09

and islands. Like a

58:11

clinic. Yeah, totally. He's got a scale

58:13

to weigh me. There's all these posters

58:15

with little extruded body parts that have

58:17

been removed out of the chest cavity.

58:19

Oh, and they're labeled. And they're correlating

58:21

to different areas of your... The spine,

58:23

right. Where they branch out, I imagine.

58:25

Yeah, or where like if we adjust

58:27

this area of the spine, it'll affect

58:29

these organs. Interesting. So the kind of

58:31

stuff that they are theoretically memorizing, though

58:33

I feel like he's a lot more

58:35

off the cuff. Also, I see this

58:37

little monitor where I can see back

58:39

out to the front lobby and I

58:41

just picture myself wandering around taking photos

58:43

everywhere. What if it's just him monitoring

58:46

whether his secretary is doing their job?

58:48

So this is where I learned that

58:50

his third wife used to do all

58:52

the bookkeeping. And when

58:55

they separated, he said, it's very amicable. We're still

58:57

friends. She taught him all the bookkeeping. He's like,

58:59

you know, I decided not to hire anybody for

59:01

that. I handled that on my own. But you're

59:03

right. This could be a setup for like one

59:05

of those creepy Airbnbs or something like that. Was

59:08

that what you were getting at or? Maybe

59:12

he's a tyrant of his employees

59:15

and just wants to make sure that whoever's

59:18

running the front desk is constantly working. Yeah.

59:20

Are you playing Farm... Yeah.

59:22

Wait, what is that? Farmville. I

59:25

picked the wrong app. Are you playing Best Fiends out

59:27

there? Pick one I know. You just

59:29

came back from smoke break. You know what? He seems

59:31

like a nice guy, but you never know what he

59:33

does. I never know. That's what I would use. Yeah.

59:36

You're telling us a lot about yourself, I think. So

59:39

yeah, lots of little informational posters. I won't go

59:41

through all of them. He weighs me. He starts

59:43

like having me turn my head this way and

59:46

that and stretch this way. And my neck does

59:48

a little pop. And I was like, Oh, yeah,

59:50

sometimes my neck pops when I tilt my head

59:52

back. And he says, Oh, I heard that. Like

59:54

a like a Pez dispenser. Sure. When I was

59:56

doing and this may have affected my posture and

59:58

everything, but I was a... Yeah,

1:02:00

yeah, it's kind of gross. This one, he

1:02:02

kept having me walk up to it and

1:02:05

then put my toes on the edge of

1:02:07

it and like lean my nose into the

1:02:09

crack there that we're looking at. And then

1:02:11

he would turn on the bed and it

1:02:13

would lower and he would

1:02:15

use his little activator gun to hit

1:02:18

my spine from different angles. OK. And then

1:02:20

he would like, have

1:02:22

me stand up again and then he would say,

1:02:24

OK, now I want you to like turn around

1:02:27

and lay against it with your face out. Yeah.

1:02:29

OK, put my back against it or I get

1:02:31

lowered again. When you're on your back, yeah, where

1:02:33

does he do the actuator? Oh, that's a good

1:02:35

question. He would use it on other parts of

1:02:37

my body like it. It sounded like a staple

1:02:40

sound, really. He would like staple my butt and

1:02:42

then he'd like staple like out

1:02:44

of my leg or something. Like he would use

1:02:46

it in other areas or he might just kind

1:02:48

of like touch my back or whatever. Yeah. Yeah.

1:02:50

Your shoulders. Because when you said you went down

1:02:52

face first, that makes sense. It was on your

1:02:54

spine. Yeah. And how did he get to your

1:02:57

spine? That was my question. Yeah, that's a very

1:02:59

good question. Yeah. When I was face up, he

1:03:01

wouldn't be directly manipulating the spine. I see. I

1:03:03

see. You're other things. So OK, so this is

1:03:05

then when I learned what KST means to him,

1:03:07

this corn specific technique, because I realize he kept

1:03:09

having me do these random things. I would like

1:03:12

lay face forward, backwards. Yeah. OK. We'd go sit

1:03:14

down on this other little segmented thing for a

1:03:16

while and he would like adjust

1:03:18

my back for a bed and hit me with a

1:03:20

little staple gun. And this was something that you hadn't

1:03:22

done at the others. No. OK. And it would just

1:03:24

be like kind of random like now stand up, go

1:03:27

back to that bed and face

1:03:29

inward. And I'd be like, OK, what's

1:03:31

going on here? So this is where

1:03:34

I realize this corn specific technique, the

1:03:36

way he uses it is as a

1:03:38

decision maker, a coin flip, a way

1:03:41

to answer yes or no questions. And

1:03:44

here's what he does, Darren. OK. He

1:03:46

takes his hands or puts them

1:03:48

behind his head. Threaded fingers

1:03:51

behind his right. OK. Elbows

1:03:53

out. And drops the thumbs

1:03:55

down. And he sees up

1:03:58

against his occipital drop. He's

1:04:00

doing this to his own head. Yes, to his

1:04:02

head. Okay. So apparently the original technique involves doing

1:04:04

it to the patient, but he learned it works

1:04:06

just as well, which I would agree with. It

1:04:09

works just as well on his own head. So

1:04:12

he has his thumbs here and then he'll

1:04:14

sense, is the left thumb a little lower?

1:04:17

Cause if it is, that's a yes. To

1:04:21

what? To a question that he has

1:04:23

asked the universe. So shut up.

1:04:27

So he'll say in his head,

1:04:29

hmm. Should I have Ross go back to

1:04:31

the total tilt a bed? Oh,

1:04:34

my left thumbs a little lower. Ross go over to

1:04:36

the tilt a bed. Uh, then he does

1:04:38

it again. Uh, face inward. What

1:04:41

are you saying to me? Then

1:04:45

he does it again and he realizes, you

1:04:47

know, he asked, should I use the

1:04:49

little actuator gun on his butt? Yes.

1:04:52

You know, click, click, click, click. Should I do it

1:04:54

on his upper back now? Yes. Click, click, click, click.

1:04:56

Should I do it on his lower back? No. Okay.

1:04:58

Should I send him back to the other bed? Yes.

1:05:00

Ross get up, go to the other bed. Should I

1:05:04

divorce my wife? For

1:05:07

the third time. Yes. Should I, who

1:05:10

knows what he uses his life. Should I paint these

1:05:12

walls? P green. As

1:05:15

long as you can narrow down with your,

1:05:17

are you kidding me right now? And

1:05:19

you wait, you honestly, what he did.

1:05:22

Okay. Did you find this out from

1:05:24

a document or ask him? I asked

1:05:26

him. Okay. Yeah. Cause. Tell me more.

1:05:28

Yeah. And he was perfectly willing to

1:05:30

talk about this. Like none of this

1:05:33

was embarrassing to him. He didn't think

1:05:35

it needs censoring. What was your face

1:05:37

like? Or letting me down slowly. Oh,

1:05:39

I mean, as often in the investigations,

1:05:41

I think just pure interest. Oh,

1:05:44

really? Oh, that's interesting. Great

1:05:46

poker face though. That's my skill. Yeah. Yeah.

1:05:48

Yeah. Is you can tell me whatever crazy

1:05:50

thing I will reserve that judgment for later.

1:05:52

Yeah. You seem interested when in fact you,

1:05:55

your job might be. Oh, I do not

1:05:57

have to pretend to be interested in this.

1:06:00

is highly interesting. But I just

1:06:02

think, really what I'm thinking is, oh, I

1:06:04

hit the gold mine. This guy just keeps

1:06:06

putting his, like he's a, like you've just

1:06:08

been told by the arresting officer, like put

1:06:10

your hands behind your head. He

1:06:12

just keeps doing that. And he's just

1:06:14

feeling for those thumbs. So he told

1:06:17

me, he learned this from kind of

1:06:19

Corin himself. There's this doctor who promoted

1:06:21

this technique and it's kind of advanced

1:06:24

chiropractic. And it involves other techniques and

1:06:26

adjustments and tools. In fact, I think

1:06:28

that activator gun, I think might actually

1:06:31

come from his KST

1:06:33

suppliers because they have one of

1:06:35

those brochures is about that. And

1:06:37

they feel that by using this

1:06:39

technique to talk to the body,

1:06:42

that you can get more lasting

1:06:44

changes. So they won't slip and

1:06:46

go back as quickly as

1:06:48

they will with other chiropractors. But he said

1:06:50

he had picked up a book about this like

1:06:52

14 years ago or a course or something. He

1:06:55

was studying it and it wasn't working for

1:06:57

him. He wasn't getting clear answers. And

1:07:00

I'm thinking, of course you weren't. Your thumbs

1:07:02

are the same size. And you're supposed to,

1:07:04

I guess originally you're supposed to use it

1:07:06

on the patient. Like you put your hand

1:07:08

on the back of their skull and get

1:07:10

the answer. But again, realized works just as

1:07:12

well on myself. So he said he went

1:07:14

to this weekend seminar, started trying this out

1:07:16

and said it was still struggling with it.

1:07:18

So they assigned some mentors to him to

1:07:21

like work with him and said, you know

1:07:23

what, start doing it on your own head.

1:07:25

And we're gonna have you ask questions that

1:07:28

you already know the answers to. Sure. Which

1:07:31

just reminds me of like dowsing tests and stuff.

1:07:33

Yeah, like when you know the answer, sure. The

1:07:35

thumbs do a great job. So he'd ask, you

1:07:38

know, like, am I a male? Oh

1:07:40

yeah, the left thumb is lower now. That's

1:07:42

a yes. What? And

1:07:45

so with that weekend seminar, he gained

1:07:47

the confidence to be

1:07:49

a KST practitioner and

1:07:51

he incorporated that for the past 14 years now. That

1:07:55

is unreal. Yeah,

1:07:58

we have moments like this on the show. the podcast, like

1:08:00

when we found out one time that this

1:08:03

guy who came to an

1:08:05

exorcism seminar that we were going to in

1:08:07

Texas, he gave this keynote, he was

1:08:09

talking about how he can find patterns in the

1:08:11

brain of demonic possession

1:08:13

and all of these other indicators,

1:08:16

multiple personality dissociative identity disorder

1:08:18

that he can deal with.

1:08:21

When we learned that these brain scans that we

1:08:23

were all asking about waiting to see even Bob

1:08:25

Larson, the exorcist is like, Oh, cool. So how

1:08:27

do you how do you do these brain scans?

1:08:29

He said, So what I do

1:08:31

is I have a sheet of paper with a diagram

1:08:33

of the brain and I give it to the patient

1:08:35

and I have them color it in with crayons. And

1:08:40

it that tells you where the problem

1:08:43

in the brain is. Yeah, because the

1:08:45

color green usually points to a demon.

1:08:49

I give up. That was one

1:08:51

of the greatest reveals ever. And

1:08:53

I painted my brain in bright,

1:08:55

colorful homosexual colors. So

1:08:58

that he would diagnose me as homosexual,

1:09:00

which he did. Okay. But

1:09:03

not only that, but as he was

1:09:06

as he was evaluating my crayon drawing

1:09:08

of my brain, he asked me,

1:09:10

So what color is this? And I said, Oh,

1:09:12

it's kind of a like a chartreuse, like a

1:09:14

yellow green. He said, Okay. And

1:09:17

I realized he's also colorblind. That

1:09:22

Carrie and I were just bowled over. Like,

1:09:24

are you kidding me what is going on

1:09:26

right now? That is brilliant. See

1:09:28

that is that is the joy of these

1:09:30

investigations. Like that moment where someone reveals that

1:09:32

to you and you're like, Yeah, are you

1:09:34

serious? That's how you're arriving

1:09:37

at your decision. Yeah, for 14 years,

1:09:39

you've been putting your hands on the

1:09:41

back of your head, asking yes

1:09:43

or no questions. And that's how you've

1:09:45

been conducting your practice. That is

1:09:48

fascinating. Yeah, isn't it?

1:09:51

Because apparently it works

1:09:53

for him. He's

1:09:55

got a business still right same

1:09:57

location for 38 years. I

1:10:00

might try that now. I mean, you have

1:10:03

really sold me Ross. Look at the

1:10:05

temptation. And as I'm thinking about him

1:10:07

as like an alternate universe, competent EMT,

1:10:09

or as a Spanish English translator, he

1:10:11

could have done any of those jobs

1:10:13

just fine. I'm thinking so much

1:10:15

of this is just driven by the fact that you

1:10:17

got to pay the rent next month. Yeah. So what

1:10:19

do you do? Yeah. Oh,

1:10:21

well, this is a job. That guy's doing it.

1:10:24

Okay. These guys assured me that I'm doing the

1:10:26

right thing. So that's my line of business now.

1:10:28

And if you can make your decisions

1:10:31

based on the length

1:10:33

of your thumbs, the

1:10:36

pressure's off really. Yeah. Yeah. It's

1:10:38

like Too Faced, Batman

1:10:40

villain. Right. Where I'm not,

1:10:42

I don't decide. Yeah.

1:10:44

I don't make the decisions. Yeah. It's out

1:10:46

of my hands. Yeah. I just gave two-

1:10:48

I don't have a professional opinion about this.

1:10:50

I just gave a horrible option to this

1:10:53

coin and it flipped in your favor.

1:10:56

Yeah. That, oh, wow. I

1:10:58

know. Wild, right? That is

1:11:00

brilliant. So I was shocked,

1:11:02

but also at the same time, like, yes, I

1:11:04

got what I'm looking for. KST. Oh, absolutely. Another

1:11:07

thing that he noticed while I was on that

1:11:09

table, he came up behind me and just ever

1:11:11

so casually said, oh, your right leg's a little

1:11:13

shorter than the other one. Oh, wow, really? Is

1:11:16

it? We did some other exercise and then his

1:11:18

hands, his thumbs told me to come back to

1:11:20

the table and he feels again, he's like, oh,

1:11:22

okay, the imbalance is gone now. My

1:11:26

leg just went from being longer to- Hey,

1:11:28

we're all cool now. And I reminded

1:11:30

him of that the next time. And he's like,

1:11:32

oh yeah, it all worked itself out. I was

1:11:34

like, are you kidding me? Are you kidding me?

1:11:37

Well, that's kind of how his business works. It

1:11:39

all kind of works out. You gave me what

1:11:41

was like information like, oh no, I need to

1:11:43

deal with this like disparity between my leg length

1:11:45

that lasted for all of two minutes. KST. So

1:11:50

the core and specific technique involves

1:11:52

some other attributes and just little

1:11:54

adjustments on top of chiropractic. Like

1:11:56

I put the more interesting ones

1:11:58

towards the top. brochure

1:12:00

KST and posture of subluxation. I

1:12:02

thought this was interesting because here's

1:12:04

their definition of a subluxation. A

1:12:07

subluxation is a metaphor for anything that

1:12:09

interferes with the flow of energy and

1:12:11

information in your body. A metaphor?

1:12:15

It's a metaphor? For anything?

1:12:17

For anything that interferes with the flow

1:12:20

of energy. What energy? Information?

1:12:22

What are you talking about? Subluxations

1:12:24

are stresses, damages, and blockages

1:12:26

that interfere with internal communications,

1:12:29

inner harmony, and healing. Korn's

1:12:31

specific technique, KST, quickly locates

1:12:33

and releases subluxations, permitting your

1:12:36

body, mind, to function at

1:12:38

a higher level of efficiency,

1:12:40

harmony, communication, and health. Uh,

1:12:42

what causes dis-ease? Yeah! Dis-ease

1:12:45

may be caused by physical,

1:12:47

chemical, or emotional stress or

1:12:49

trauma. I do not like

1:12:52

when someone changes the definition of

1:12:54

disease. By pointing out like, oh

1:12:57

wow, it's the opposite of ease.

1:12:59

It's not the lack of ease.

1:13:01

Uh, I

1:13:04

have a problem with that. Yeah. Like, it's

1:13:06

a theory. It's just a theory. Mm-hmm. Okay.

1:13:08

Yeah. Now I know who I'm talking to.

1:13:11

We've made a superficial point about the origin

1:13:13

of the word. To take it somewhere it

1:13:15

shouldn't go. Absolutely. So when

1:13:18

he started doing this, hands

1:13:20

behind the head thing, was that clear

1:13:23

to you that he was doing something?

1:13:25

Or did you think maybe he

1:13:27

was just stretching or? Oh, you know, he did

1:13:29

just kind of tell me, hey, if it sounds

1:13:31

like I'm going to sleep or something, uh, don't

1:13:33

worry. I'm just like checking in with these questions

1:13:36

that I'm asking. So he kind of warned me

1:13:38

like, especially when he'd be standing behind me, if

1:13:40

I'm standing behind you for a while and you

1:13:42

haven't heard from me, don't worry. I'm just doing

1:13:44

a process here. And then later on I found

1:13:47

out what that process was. You found out because

1:13:49

you said, what are you doing with your? Yeah.

1:13:51

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And that's when I learned what

1:13:53

KST meant to him. He also had this massager

1:13:55

that I kept calling the belt sander. Cause you

1:13:57

know, it's just, it's one of those things you

1:14:00

hold. on to with both hands and it makes

1:14:02

that same motorized sound. Like a massage at the

1:14:04

barber. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And it's

1:14:06

plugged into the wall like that. And that felt great. He'd use it

1:14:08

all over me and every time he'd be like, hey, I got this

1:14:10

at Costco. That's great. Like,

1:14:14

did he get a brag? Totally. I totally

1:14:16

got a deal on this. And I mean,

1:14:18

I love that about him that he's just

1:14:20

so open with this while he was going

1:14:22

back and forth between these things, the belt

1:14:24

sander massager, which I like, even though I'm

1:14:26

calling it the belt sander and the table

1:14:29

and the other table, he gets a call

1:14:31

from his girlfriend. Okay. And

1:14:33

so he says, oh, I'm with a client right now. And

1:14:35

she says, oh, well, are we still meeting

1:14:37

at five? Wait, how did you hear this?

1:14:40

He put it on speakerphone. Okay. Are

1:14:43

we meeting at five still to take care of the

1:14:45

thing? And it like, whatever it was sounded really shady.

1:14:47

Sure. And he's like, oh yeah,

1:14:49

definitely. And said his goodbyes

1:14:51

to her. But then I turned back

1:14:53

to him and I said, is that the fourth wife? And

1:14:56

he's he grinned back at me and said,

1:14:59

maybe. That's

1:15:03

why I'm calling him the silver fox. This guy, this guy's

1:15:05

got a game. And what

1:15:07

do you suppose the thing is? Oh goodness,

1:15:09

bearing a body somewhere. I

1:15:11

was going to offer to help because I wasn't getting

1:15:13

rid of that guy. They paralyzed with the, uh, yeah.

1:15:15

The guy wrote this stroke. Yeah. Though

1:15:18

to be fair, he never asked to

1:15:20

or tried to manipulate my neck in that

1:15:22

way. He didn't do the fast neck snap

1:15:24

thing. Okay. So then

1:15:26

he takes me back into the first office.

1:15:28

He puts my toes on a med massager.

1:15:30

It's just a little foot vibration plate and

1:15:33

he leaves me there for 10 minutes with

1:15:35

my feet vibrating. What does that settle everything

1:15:37

down? Get all the sand out of your

1:15:39

pants or something that it works, uh, it

1:15:41

works on reflexology principles. And so

1:15:43

it affects the whole body. And I

1:15:45

said, Oh, is reflexology connected to chiropractors

1:15:47

or is that something like that? Just

1:15:49

you incorporate because every chiropractor seems to

1:15:51

have their own little suite of things

1:15:53

that they incorporate. And he

1:15:55

said, Oh no, but it, you know, it's

1:15:57

compatible, but it's, it's not a chiropractic itself.

1:16:00

He also, while my feet were massaging, by the

1:16:02

way, the foot massager, guess where he got it?

1:16:06

Costco. Yeah, that's right. In Cleveland. Yeah,

1:16:08

they both say med massager on them.

1:16:10

I don't know why he's telling me

1:16:12

this, but I do appreciate his openness.

1:16:14

So yeah, he hands me this blue

1:16:16

device. Oh no, he doesn't hand it

1:16:18

to me. He puts it behind my

1:16:20

back. And this is the special technology

1:16:22

developed by an expert in acupuncture and

1:16:24

Chinese medicine who came up with this

1:16:26

little NES health device. And

1:16:28

you and I probably hear NES and we

1:16:31

think a Nintendo entertainment system. Here's

1:16:33

how he described it. He said,

1:16:35

it's a pulse electromagnetic frequency device

1:16:37

that is able to identify specific

1:16:39

energy frequencies for functions in the

1:16:41

body, not just physical functions, but

1:16:43

emotional as well. And the system

1:16:45

allows us to scan your energy

1:16:47

field and detect distortions. And it

1:16:49

broadcasts over 400 frequencies. And

1:16:52

that was just a lot of terms that like, even as he was saying

1:16:54

it, you could tell like, I don't know what any of this means, but

1:16:56

it does it. It's got frequencies.

1:16:58

Frequencies are good. It

1:17:00

sounds. And I said, okay, so it's scanning me right

1:17:02

now. Cause it had like two little metal diodes on

1:17:05

the back and those were kind of facing my back,

1:17:07

he didn't make me lift my shirt or anything so

1:17:09

they could make skin contact, but I said, am I

1:17:11

being like calibrated or scanned now? And he said, Oh

1:17:14

no, if you want to do that, we can

1:17:16

do that on a separate visit. But right now

1:17:18

it's just, it's broadcasting and this is good for

1:17:20

everybody. Uh, you mentioned

1:17:22

emotions in there. Yeah. So

1:17:25

if you were to go in and you were perfectly

1:17:27

physically fine, but

1:17:30

say you had lost a loved

1:17:32

one, would it register on now

1:17:34

with the device sense it? Yeah.

1:17:37

I mean, probably, uh, because I

1:17:39

think we have a situation here kind of

1:17:42

like in Scientology, whatever your life is, they

1:17:44

will find your ruin. The one thing that's

1:17:46

bad wrong with you that they can latch

1:17:48

onto and fix. I have gotten

1:17:50

the impression that that is the world of chiropractic

1:17:52

where there's always going to be something they can

1:17:54

help you with, even if you're perfectly healthy

1:17:56

in the prime of your life. And

1:17:58

so, yeah, I would imagine they would be. like, Oh,

1:18:00

you're not complaining of any physical issues.

1:18:02

You know what? I bet it's emotional.

1:18:04

That's what I'm getting here. Yeah.

1:18:07

That was the first time of two that he would just kind

1:18:09

of put this thing behind my back and then when he walked

1:18:11

out to leave me alone for 10 minutes, like the creep that

1:18:13

I am, I took it out from behind my back and take

1:18:15

photos of it. I'm like trying to analyze this thing. What the

1:18:18

hell does it do? And then I'm like

1:18:20

jumping up and taking photos of the other room

1:18:22

and all the things that we just used because

1:18:24

now I can see him on the TV, right?

1:18:26

You know, he's nowhere to be. Yeah. The,

1:18:29

the closed circuit TV. And yeah, I know

1:18:31

he's not coming. Totally putting them as your

1:18:33

possible theme in my head right now. That

1:18:36

was, I felt so guilty. Like, Oh no, what if he catches me?

1:18:38

I've gotten off the foot plate. You're

1:18:41

doing the Tom cruise hands, the balance. I'm

1:18:44

not touching the floor. Yeah. Uh,

1:18:46

so, so I got that and I

1:18:48

got back to my place because I could see he

1:18:51

was out there with like two other clients in their

1:18:53

sixties who would stop by. So yeah, I don't know

1:18:55

what to do with this. And he has health thing,

1:18:57

but that's another thing that he uses as part of

1:18:59

his practice, he's just collected all these little implements over

1:19:01

the years. So he comes back to me and says,

1:19:04

so in my opinion, we're going to need

1:19:06

about 10 more visits to get you an

1:19:08

ideal condition. And I'm thinking

1:19:11

you already know this how 10 that's highly

1:19:13

specific. Well, he did say about 10, but

1:19:16

I said, well, we could do it tomorrow or we

1:19:18

could do it weekly, you know, as often as you

1:19:20

want. And, uh, I had wanted Kerry

1:19:22

to join me for each location. So I said,

1:19:24

well, Hey, let's do Monday. And so we scheduled

1:19:26

for Monday cause he was about to go on

1:19:28

vacation. So we made another appointment and

1:19:30

I paid the $120 because my insurance didn't

1:19:32

cover this, right? Where's this money coming from?

1:19:35

If I may. So, you know, I did

1:19:37

use, we have like the little medical expenses

1:19:39

card. Okay. I charge it to that while

1:19:41

I still have a balance, but otherwise I'd

1:19:44

just pay out of pocket. I see. That's

1:19:46

why people support the podcast. Great. Great. By

1:19:48

all kinds of crazy stuff. You're

1:19:50

sure. The things I've spent money on, Darren, the

1:19:53

things. So,

1:19:55

so that was it. There was evening, there was

1:19:58

morning that first day. Okay. So Kerry and I

1:20:00

met. up then on a Monday, it was July

1:20:02

1st, and Dr. Silver Fox took

1:20:04

to her immediately and never asked me like,

1:20:06

you know, I said like, it's okay if

1:20:08

she knows anything about my medical conditions and

1:20:11

you didn't care. Okay, great. She's welcome. He

1:20:13

asked her if she'd been to a chiropractor

1:20:15

before. She said, it's been a while, but

1:20:18

she has. But yeah, he didn't

1:20:20

care what our like relationship was like, why is

1:20:22

this person with you? Are you exploring? None of

1:20:24

those questions just, hey, you're here. Welcome to the

1:20:27

party. Right. Another customer. Yeah. So we go straight

1:20:29

to the larger room and I

1:20:31

don't think I'd given Kerry all the details

1:20:33

yet because I wanted her to have that

1:20:35

same reaction. Yeah. And he started doing it

1:20:37

right away. Like the thumb drop thing. Okay.

1:20:39

And he told her all about it, like

1:20:41

unprovoked. Hey, so I do this thing, KST,

1:20:43

and here's how I ask questions. And Kerry

1:20:45

started taking videos. Okay. So

1:20:47

now that I'm showing you the video, I

1:20:50

realized, yeah, I'm picturing more of like the

1:20:52

thumbs pointing down. Really? They're not. They're just

1:20:54

like, it looks like he's just tapping the

1:20:56

back of his head and readjusting his thumbs.

1:20:58

Yeah. And that's fiddling with the back

1:21:00

of his head. So the thumbs are lower than

1:21:02

the other fingers, but they're not pointing down. So,

1:21:04

okay, I was creating the wrong mental image there.

1:21:06

And that's his dowsing. Yeah. And

1:21:08

you can see like he did that and then

1:21:11

he decided, okay, stand up, go to the vertical

1:21:13

table. We're going to lower you go through that

1:21:15

whole slow. I expect you to die. Dr. Bond

1:21:17

thing. I just imagine him at Burger King in

1:21:19

line and they're like, can I, what can I

1:21:22

get you? And he's like, ah,

1:21:24

tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap.

1:21:26

I want to shake. What flavor

1:21:29

tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap.

1:21:32

I've narrowed it down. Hold on. Tap, tap,

1:21:34

tap, tap, tap. Cause it could become a

1:21:36

like that. Yeah. Now wait, he just did

1:21:38

it again there for a

1:21:40

second. Yeah. So he, he got me

1:21:42

on the table and then he taps

1:21:44

again, maybe to choose which instrument he's

1:21:47

going to use. So he grabs the

1:21:49

little belt sander massager. Now he's got

1:21:51

it on my upper back. Oh, he's

1:21:53

doing it again. Yeah. It's constant. Wow.

1:21:55

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's so nails it.

1:21:57

See, Carrie has that same reaction, which

1:21:59

is like. Oh, okay. That's that is

1:22:01

legitimately interesting. What you just said is

1:22:03

of interest. I am interested

1:22:05

in what you said. That is not the answer

1:22:07

I would normally expect from another person. What? So

1:22:10

he's telling her about his kind

1:22:12

of working definition of subluxations and

1:22:14

says most of them are emotional.

1:22:16

And Carrie hears him mention stress

1:22:18

in that description. And she says,

1:22:20

oh, so like emotional traumas, because

1:22:22

she's always on the search for

1:22:24

people who are talking about trauma.

1:22:27

And he says, could be that. That's part of the

1:22:29

mix as well. We don't know. Whatever makes

1:22:31

you happy. Whatever keeps you coming. Could be

1:22:33

a bad pickle. Yeah. Carrie

1:22:36

asks if he treats babies

1:22:39

and he says, not often, because

1:22:41

that's something that makes us super uncomfortable as

1:22:43

a chiropractor, getting their hands on a baby

1:22:46

like just don't. And he

1:22:48

said, yeah, not very often, but I will

1:22:50

do like home visits as well sometimes.

1:22:52

So that'll involve young kids like a

1:22:55

moil. Yeah, indeed. Makes house

1:22:57

calls. On infants. So

1:23:00

after doing this battery of tests and he had warned

1:23:02

me before that the second visit would be quicker,

1:23:05

no paperwork. So this one was

1:23:07

more like half an hour instead of like the hour

1:23:09

of the previous one and only cost $75 only. And

1:23:13

so he takes us eventually back to the

1:23:15

small room where I had started the first

1:23:18

time and he brings out the foot massager

1:23:20

again. Tells Carrie and I that it's from

1:23:22

Costco in case we want to buy one, too. And

1:23:26

now that's where he goes wrong. Yeah. Is

1:23:28

he says what his supplier is? Right. Instead

1:23:30

of do you want one of these? Because

1:23:32

I can sell one to you for a

1:23:34

markup. Oh, yeah. Good point. Yeah, he's cutting

1:23:36

out the middle man and he's the middle

1:23:38

man. Exactly. And back in

1:23:40

the small office, Carrie pointed out this

1:23:42

stainless steel metal thing like bolted to

1:23:45

the wall for all of eternity and

1:23:47

asked him about that. So

1:23:49

what is that thing for? And he said,

1:23:51

oh, yeah. So there was this company called

1:23:53

Synergy. And I used to work with a lot

1:23:55

of people who were recovering from injuries and needed

1:23:58

to do stretches. So this is a whole. system,

1:24:00

they would get a series of VHS tapes. They could

1:24:02

get one of these at their home or they could

1:24:04

come here and follow along. And just

1:24:06

over time, people weren't interested in it

1:24:08

anymore. I guess they didn't have VHS

1:24:10

players anymore. So Kerry and

1:24:12

I were both making jokes just about how

1:24:15

firmly this is like bolted into

1:24:17

cement. This metal bar will never move, but

1:24:19

it's a testament to another one of his

1:24:22

instruments. Sure. Another vestigial.

1:24:24

Yes. Exactly.

1:24:27

Practice. Exactly. It seems like

1:24:31

he's tapping on his head and then

1:24:33

massaging you, tapping on his

1:24:35

head and putting your feet in a

1:24:37

massager. Yeah. He's tapping on

1:24:39

his head and then rubbing

1:24:42

your back. Yes. Tapping the back of his

1:24:44

head and then using a little staple gun

1:24:46

thing on me that I can barely even

1:24:48

feel. Yeah. But it's doing these little micro

1:24:51

adjustments pretty much. And I mean, that's pleasant.

1:24:53

I did like the little massage thing

1:24:55

on my back and the one on my feet. But

1:24:57

I could go to Costco and get those on my

1:24:59

own. Apparently probably for the price of one visit. I'm

1:25:03

going to Costco after this. So

1:25:05

he left us alone for 10 minutes to sit

1:25:08

on the foot vibrator. I, you know, like made

1:25:10

room so Kerry could put a foot on there

1:25:12

as well. Yeah. And I had the NES thing

1:25:14

broadcasting at my back again. So, yeah, we just

1:25:17

sat there for a while chatting about this and

1:25:19

our reactions to some of these ideas. Wow. I

1:25:21

mean, a good time. But yeah, maybe not worth

1:25:23

75 bucks. But I mean,

1:25:26

it's pretty low energy for him to conduct

1:25:28

one of these visits. So once he's got

1:25:30

you coming in for 10 exactly. And like

1:25:32

you said, it was pleasant. So

1:25:34

yeah, why not go back if

1:25:37

didn't make me go home and go. Wow.

1:25:39

I feel so much better after that. Exactly.

1:25:41

That nice guy had a little conversation with

1:25:43

him. Absolutely. And those are the kind of

1:25:46

things that chiropractic can provide to you is

1:25:48

a listening ear and usually some

1:25:50

gentle massage or something like that. A little

1:25:52

bit of stretching. So that was it paid

1:25:55

75 bucks for the visit.

1:25:57

Kerry bought a book called Life Enrichment

1:25:59

Through Self. Hypnosis, 10, 15

1:26:01

bucks, something like that. Out of

1:26:04

the chiropractors that you visited,

1:26:06

was this probably the most

1:26:08

woo-woo and surprising? I

1:26:10

think so. Yeah, like each one gave a

1:26:13

slightly different aspect of chiropractic and I'm glad

1:26:15

I had those three experiences to sort of

1:26:17

compare. Because the first one I got the

1:26:19

neck adjustment that I didn't get anywhere else.

1:26:21

The second one I got the really hard

1:26:24

sale for the repeated. For the membership, yeah.

1:26:26

Exactly. And then the third one. You

1:26:28

learned how to make decisions. Yeah, which

1:26:30

I can just carry on into my life. I'm

1:26:33

gonna use it every day. And

1:26:35

got to learn more about KST. And

1:26:38

he really only defined it in terms of

1:26:40

that decision making. But the more I read

1:26:43

the brochures, the more I realized they're just

1:26:45

little subtle tweaks to normal chiropractic practice. Right,

1:26:47

right. Okay, so that was it. And then

1:26:49

I didn't schedule another meeting after that. And

1:26:51

I get emails from them, but they're just

1:26:54

like kind of regular like, hey, you're on

1:26:56

my mailing list kind of emails. Not

1:26:59

like Ross, where are you? We need to resume. So. Are

1:27:02

you okay? Yeah, he hasn't made the hard push

1:27:04

to get me back on the tap there. So

1:27:06

all in all pretty pleasant. And I got what

1:27:08

I wanted. I felt that was worth 195

1:27:10

bucks. Oh yeah,

1:27:12

definitely. So let's

1:27:14

talk a little bit about what the

1:27:17

harms of a chiropractic can be. So

1:27:20

we've seen on these disclaimer forms, the

1:27:22

really extreme version of this is tears

1:27:25

in your arteries in your neck. Sure.

1:27:27

So during these fast manipulations, you can

1:27:30

do that if the tissue is weak,

1:27:32

if you have other conditions going on

1:27:35

and the numbers aren't huge,

1:27:37

but the stories are terrifying.

1:27:39

And there's a variety of,

1:27:42

as I was reading and watching

1:27:44

various sources of just like

1:27:46

different people's cases like this 28 year old woman

1:27:49

who is paralyzed after a chiropractic

1:27:51

adjustment. She had four arteries ruptured.

1:27:54

Stroke is often a consequence

1:27:57

of this. Edzard Ernst, co-author of.

1:27:59

trick or treatment. He

1:28:01

said that there have been 100 fatalities

1:28:03

reported in medical literature, but

1:28:06

very likely under reported because

1:28:09

oftentimes someone has a stroke and nobody like

1:28:11

goes to look, oh, how recently did they

1:28:13

see a chiropractor? Which is a fairly recent

1:28:16

thing. And it doesn't even have to be

1:28:18

somebody who saw a chiropractor. This

1:28:20

reminds me of a story. When

1:28:23

I was in Houston, was

1:28:25

over at some friend's house

1:28:27

and their son was studying

1:28:29

to be a chiropractor. And

1:28:32

so after a couple glasses of wine

1:28:34

or whatever, it's like, hey, Rob, get

1:28:36

out your table and make

1:28:38

adjustments on all of us. Oh,

1:28:41

wow. He was not certified.

1:28:43

He was a practicing practitioner. And

1:28:50

thinking back on that, how would

1:28:53

that have happened? Like if there was a

1:28:55

fatality or a stroke or something? Accountability there.

1:28:58

You know what? You're reminding me of

1:29:01

another story that Harriet Hall told in

1:29:03

her series on this. She was saying

1:29:05

that she knew a family where a

1:29:07

young child had died from a chiropractic

1:29:09

manipulation and asked the family like,

1:29:12

well, are you going to sue the person who

1:29:14

did this? And they said, well, that would be

1:29:16

kind of hard. It was his father who was

1:29:18

a chiropractor and did this to their own child,

1:29:20

killed their own child. Oh, tragedy.

1:29:23

Yeah, tragedy upon tragedy. There's

1:29:25

another very prominent story about

1:29:27

a Playboy model named Katie May, who died in

1:29:29

2016. Oh, yeah, I know

1:29:31

her. She was Miss May. If

1:29:35

she wasn't, that was also a tragedy. Yeah,

1:29:38

she was 34 years old at the time

1:29:40

and she had a ruptured artery in her neck.

1:29:43

In 2019, there was a UK bank

1:29:45

manager who died after he was left with

1:29:48

a broken neck following a session with a

1:29:50

chiropractor. Sandra and

1:29:52

Nettie got a maintenance adjustment and

1:29:54

right after the process felt dizzy,

1:29:56

am I added, she tried to

1:29:59

drive home. couldn't make it. She

1:30:01

had a stroke and descended into

1:30:03

locked-in syndrome where like she still

1:30:05

had an active brain but no

1:30:07

way to communicate with the world.

1:30:09

Yeah, horrible stories. Laurie Jean Matheson,

1:30:11

she was 20 years old and

1:30:13

her neck was manipulated for pain

1:30:15

she had in her tailbone. She

1:30:17

went into convulsions as a result

1:30:20

and the chiropractor tried slapping her.

1:30:22

Something D.D. Palmer would try to

1:30:24

a deaf person. Indeed, yes, right.

1:30:26

And she died in a coma

1:30:28

three days later there's

1:30:31

a lot of stories like that so

1:30:33

we don't know the true number. Yeah, it's

1:30:35

not zero but it could be higher than

1:30:38

we sure you know have direct connection for

1:30:40

and Harriet Hall had

1:30:42

this stat in 2002 9% of

1:30:44

claims paid out by major chiropractor

1:30:46

insurance companies were for strokes. Wow.

1:30:48

So you know some of those

1:30:50

could be caused by other things

1:30:52

but at least the insurance company

1:30:54

knows that we have a problem

1:30:56

here. Yeah. And beyond those very

1:30:58

fatal outcomes there's can also be

1:31:01

paralysis, disability, herniated discs,

1:31:03

broken bones, just radiating

1:31:05

discomfort, tiredness, headache and

1:31:08

over 50% have had some kind of local

1:31:10

discomfort which I think the chiropractors would sort

1:31:12

of write off as just yeah well it's

1:31:14

part of the treatment. So

1:31:16

a question that that I was really

1:31:19

wondering going to all of this and that I got

1:31:21

asked by a lot of people who I talked to

1:31:23

about this is well then what's the alternative? Where do

1:31:25

you go if you're not seeing

1:31:27

a chiropractor? So I reached out to a

1:31:30

few friends of mine Angie Feasel Matt

1:31:32

Key speaks a lot on medical issues

1:31:34

in the skeptical community and so she

1:31:36

said well it really depends on the

1:31:38

cause of the back pain that you're

1:31:40

experiencing. If it's like a kidney stone

1:31:42

go to a urologist. If it's an

1:31:44

aortic aneurysm then you want

1:31:46

vascular surgery. If it's just

1:31:49

spine related or muscular or skeletal

1:31:51

then she would send someone to

1:31:53

orthopedics. Okay. And if there's a

1:31:55

neurological issue something with the nerves

1:31:57

themselves you want to find a

1:31:59

neurosurgeon. or orthospine. Right, that's

1:32:01

what we were looking for earlier.

1:32:04

Yes. A spine surgeon

1:32:07

is a neuro-ortho. Yeah,

1:32:09

ornithologist. Yeah. Ortho,

1:32:13

straight. They make your spine straight. Fix your

1:32:15

wings. But they have real training. But

1:32:17

what she said she never, ever, ever, ever, ever

1:32:20

does is send someone to a chiropractor. And of

1:32:22

course, a good first place to go is just

1:32:24

your primary care doctor, you know, and then see

1:32:26

from there where you need to go if it's

1:32:28

something dire. I also spoke with

1:32:30

a friend, Vanch, who was working at Camp Omni

1:32:32

with me. What, what? He's

1:32:34

an EMT. And he said,

1:32:37

if it's a nerve issue, see a

1:32:39

neurologist. If it's a bone issue, see

1:32:41

an orthopedist with whatever relevant specialty. Right,

1:32:43

right. So consistent. Also, I saw a

1:32:46

post by Cybabe where she said to

1:32:48

see a spinal surgeon if you

1:32:50

have back issues. So lots of options out

1:32:53

there. I also heard, like

1:32:55

Harriet Hall was saying, a DO, a

1:32:58

doctor of osteopathy, can also be better

1:33:00

than, they

1:33:02

have kind of a similar trajectory to

1:33:05

chiropractic. They were started around the same

1:33:07

time, had similar origins, but got more

1:33:09

mainstreamed over time, accepted more medical practices.

1:33:12

So, so that's a little more

1:33:14

on the level, but still these other ones we've talked

1:33:16

about would be better. That might be

1:33:18

a subject for some other investigation in the future

1:33:20

to learn more about them. So

1:33:22

that's kind of the takeaway is whatever it

1:33:24

is that a chiropractor could do for you

1:33:27

can be done by other people. And one

1:33:29

that we left out of that conversation is

1:33:31

a physical therapist. And

1:33:33

a chiropractor, when they're doing their best work, are

1:33:36

gonna be doing essentially the same thing as a

1:33:38

physical therapist. Exactly. So if you gotta go there,

1:33:40

go there. It all depends on the exact nature

1:33:42

and you shouldn't go to one person who can

1:33:45

solve everything. That should be a big

1:33:47

red flag. Also, being pressured

1:33:49

to make big financial decisions quickly,

1:33:51

another big flag. Just

1:33:53

get yourself in a mode where you never accept

1:33:55

that from anyone. You just have the right to

1:33:57

tell anyone around you. You know what? I got

1:33:59

to think about it. Yep. Oh, it's going to

1:34:01

go away tomorrow. I won't have that deal tomorrow.

1:34:03

Well, sorry, I guess I'm not interested then. I

1:34:06

always say I got to go talk to

1:34:08

my accountant. I'll let you know. Oh, I love it. And

1:34:10

that way they know it's about money. And

1:34:12

they know you're making a prudent decision.

1:34:14

You know, and then they tend to

1:34:16

not pressure you again. Yeah, because they

1:34:19

know you're not the market they're looking

1:34:21

for. Yeah. If only we can normalize

1:34:23

the societal pressure to not

1:34:25

ask those questions in the first place.

1:34:27

I think if enough people push back

1:34:29

like that, they'll be a little more

1:34:31

nervous about saying it in the first

1:34:33

place. Right. So and voice your distaste

1:34:35

of it. Yeah. Yeah. Oh,

1:34:38

this this feels like I'm being asked

1:34:40

to join a gym. I like that.

1:34:42

Yes. Yeah. Even call it out. Oh,

1:34:44

this feels like that. I'm

1:34:46

sure presentation. Yeah, exactly.

1:34:50

OK, well, thank you so much for

1:34:52

sitting with me through all of this

1:34:54

info about chiropractic. This has been great.

1:34:57

I always love our conversations because

1:34:59

I at least

1:35:02

I always find out there's a book I need

1:35:04

to read or a show

1:35:06

I need to watch or a conference

1:35:09

I need to go to when I

1:35:11

talk to you. So I have lots

1:35:13

of notes that fantastic. And to be

1:35:15

able to watch these investigations

1:35:19

unfold. Yeah. Now you've seen the inside

1:35:21

scoop. Well,

1:35:23

thank you. And likewise, I value

1:35:25

the friendships where I'm constantly learning about like

1:35:27

heart to heart. We were just having we

1:35:29

were having a heart to heart conversation earlier

1:35:31

about the TV show. Yeah. You need to

1:35:33

watch now. I got to watch it. Yeah.

1:35:35

You know, my my phone is just filled

1:35:37

with tabs of all the interesting things people

1:35:39

have told me about. And it's like, OK,

1:35:41

I'm going to read more about this later.

1:35:43

And that often fuels the investigations where for

1:35:45

this investigation, I got to go weed out

1:35:47

like five different tabs from my phone and

1:35:49

say, OK, now I've read about, you know,

1:35:51

first chiropractic in Arizona. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And

1:35:54

just for everybody else, now a bit of

1:35:56

time is a clip since that last visit.

1:35:58

And you know, I've been. I had like

1:36:01

maybe another flare up of that leg pain

1:36:03

about a week later, but it subsided since

1:36:05

then and yeah, hasn't

1:36:07

been giving me any troubles. Yeah. And boy,

1:36:09

I think if I was still going to

1:36:11

that person in West Hollywood, I would have

1:36:13

given them the credit for it. Right. That's

1:36:16

the thing I talked to my kid about is

1:36:19

a lot of anxiety over

1:36:21

growing pains. Yes. You know,

1:36:23

my legs are killing me. Yeah. Well, your,

1:36:25

your bones are growing. If

1:36:27

it, if it stays the same or

1:36:30

gets worse, we'll take you to a

1:36:32

doctor. Yeah. My dad is. Yeah. That's

1:36:34

kind of the criteria of seeking medical

1:36:36

attention. That's good. Because a lot of

1:36:39

pain or discomfort will subside, will go

1:36:41

away and is just natural.

1:36:45

But if it persists or gets

1:36:47

worse, then you know, you're,

1:36:49

you need to seek medical time. Oh, I

1:36:52

love it. That's a great, great rubric. But

1:36:54

I'm glad your leg is better. Thank you.

1:36:56

Because your right leg clearly was shorter

1:36:58

or longer for a second. I think

1:37:01

shorter. Yeah. Maybe I said it

1:37:03

wrong. I don't know. Yeah. It was the right leg.

1:37:05

He pointed out. It grew. Goodness.

1:37:09

Oh my goodness. Oh, and you mentioned

1:37:11

conferences again, so I will remind

1:37:13

everybody Sunday assembly. Khan is coming

1:37:16

up October 17th through 20th here

1:37:18

in lovely Los Angeles, California. It'll

1:37:20

be hosted by myself and Marsha

1:37:22

Swallow. She's fantastic. Check

1:37:25

it out at Sunday assembly.org/conference. Join us.

1:37:27

Have fun. It's sad. The easiest

1:37:29

way to describe Sunday assembly is always like, that's

1:37:31

like church for atheists, but they don't

1:37:34

use either word. Right. It's just for

1:37:36

people who kind of miss getting together

1:37:38

with other people on a Sunday. Right.

1:37:41

It's a, it's a joining. It's a

1:37:43

community. It's a celebration without all the

1:37:45

trappings of. You don't

1:37:47

have to believe anything that's not true

1:37:49

to share casseroles and have your kids

1:37:52

watch for a little while and sing

1:37:54

some songs. And instead of

1:37:56

feeling guilt after the sermon, you learn

1:37:59

something. Yeah, they actually bring in someone to like, give

1:38:01

like a science lecture or something like that. Yeah, it's a very

1:38:03

good replacement for the old sermon. So people just go cause they

1:38:05

want to sing together. Well, you picked a good time to show

1:38:08

up cause we had to promote that and you and I have

1:38:10

been hosts many times of Sunday

1:38:12

assembly. All right, well, thanks again, Darren.

1:38:15

And how can people follow you? How do they find

1:38:17

you? I'm on Instagram. I left

1:38:19

Twitter for various reasons. So Darren butters on

1:38:21

Instagram. Then you can see all the handy

1:38:23

projects that he does. His home in the

1:38:25

woods. I have an off-grid

1:38:27

cabin that I'm very excited about.

1:38:30

His very talented family. Yeah, it's more

1:38:32

like a, I'm not

1:38:34

pushing anything or broadcasting anything. It's

1:38:37

just my page. It's good stuff. Thank you

1:38:39

for having me. This has been a delight.

1:38:41

And like I said, I learned something, many

1:38:44

things every time I chat

1:38:46

with you. So likewise, thank you so much. And

1:38:49

remember. My name is

1:38:51

Vicki and I'm a doctor of

1:38:53

chiropractic and a certified clinical nutritionist.

1:38:55

After Scientology, those stops, all those

1:38:58

reservations or worries left. That

1:39:03

rare good day when everything just

1:39:05

seems to click and that has

1:39:07

become my day to day. As

1:39:09

I've improved spiritually, my patients have

1:39:11

improved. And I'm very

1:39:13

much achieving my goals now. Scientology

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