0:00

About eleven years ago, we were in Haiti and

0:02

I was introduced to a little girl who was thirteen.

0:04

She spent three to four hours every day collecting

0:06

water. So I say to this kid, I'm like,

0:09

well, hey, you know, I kind of joke and say, now

0:11

you have more time for homework. And she looks

0:13

at me totally seriously, and she's like, I

0:15

don't need more time to do homework. I'm the smartest

0:17

kid in my class. And I said, all right,

0:19

well, so what are you going to do with all this time that

0:21

you just found? You your new

0:24

found four hours a day. And she looked at

0:26

me and she goes, I'm gonna play.

0:34

Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose,

0:36

the number one health podcast in the world.

0:38

Thanks to each and every single one of you that come

0:40

back every week to listen, learn,

0:43

and grow. Now, I know that our community

0:45

add on Purpose. All of you are activists.

0:48

Our community is dedicated to making positive

0:51

change in the world. I know that all of you have

0:53

got behind so many causes that

0:55

we've prioritized and given a platform

0:57

too on this podcast, and

1:00

this is one of those episodes. So if you've been looking

1:02

and waiting to do something positive in the world,

1:05

to feel like you're a part of the solution. Then

1:07

I want you to listen to this episode. I want you to share

1:09

it with all your friends and family that are

1:12

of the same energy and spirit,

1:14

because this one's going to make a huge difference.

1:17

Today I'm sweeking of two incredible guests,

1:19

Gary White and Matt Damon, who are

1:21

co founders of water dot

1:24

Org and Water Equity. While

1:26

everyone knows Matt as an actor and producer

1:28

and screenwriter, in two thousand and

1:30

six he founded H twenty Africa

1:32

Foundation to raise awareness

1:35

about water initiatives on

1:37

the continent. Matt's active participation

1:39

in the work of water or dot org and

1:41

Water Equity has positioned

1:44

him as one of the world's experts on water

1:46

and sanitation issues now. In

1:48

nineteen ninety one, Gary launched Water

1:51

Partners, now the international

1:53

NGEO known as water dot Org.

1:55

Today, he leads two organizations in creating

1:58

and executing mark driven solutions

2:01

to the global water crisis, driving

2:03

innovations in the way water and sanitation

2:06

projects are delivered and financed.

2:09

Welcome to on Purpose, Matt

2:11

Damon and Gary White. Matt and Gary,

2:13

thank you so much for being here. And

2:16

I know today we're talking about your book, The

2:18

Worth of Water, our story

2:21

of chasing solutions to the world's greatest

2:23

challenge. I highly recommend everyone goes

2:25

and grabs a copy of the book while you're listening

2:28

or watching, but we will be diving

2:30

into that and discussing it. Gary

2:32

and Matt, thank you for being here. It's so good to see you. Good

2:34

to see you. Thank you for sharing your incredible

2:37

platform with us too. This is really awesome.

2:39

We appreciate it for sure. Thanks jay

2:42

No, thank you for doing the work. You

2:44

know. I spent three years living

2:47

as a monk in India after business

2:49

school, and a lot of the work

2:51

we did was around building sustainable

2:53

villages and a big part of that was making sure

2:56

that clean water reach those places.

2:58

So I have a personal affy to the work

3:00

that you're doing, and so when this came across

3:03

my desk, I was, to be honest, just super

3:06

enthusiastic and excited to talk

3:08

about it. I'd love to start off from both

3:10

of you individually

3:12

telling me about what is

3:15

the water crisis and water issue right now

3:17

for those who are unaware or those

3:19

that have kind of seen it but kind

3:22

of think, oh yeah, like isn't aren't. There are a lot

3:24

of people dealing with that, and you know, it's kind of been talked

3:26

about for a while. I'd love to hear from both of your perspectives

3:29

personally as to what you believe

3:31

the issue is right now. Well,

3:34

if I can go ahead and jump in, that's all right. It's

3:38

it's so complex, it's kind of hard to distill

3:40

it it. I'll give it a shot. I think that

3:44

for us, we tend to think of

3:46

the water crisis is something that's looming. We

3:48

know that, you know, a climate change, water

3:50

resources are getting more scarce, and

3:53

that is a looming crisis, and it is important

3:55

we should be focused on that. But

3:58

for seven hundred and seventy one million people

4:00

around the world today, the

4:02

crisis is already upon them. Right.

4:05

They're the ones that when they woke up this

4:07

morning, they didn't necessarily know where

4:09

they were going to get water for the day. They

4:12

didn't know how much time they were going to have to spend

4:14

walking to collect that water, or

4:17

sometimes they have to buy it from these these

4:19

urban slum vendors who

4:21

sell it for prices that are ten to

4:23

fifteen times more than what they would pay

4:25

if they had a water connection. So

4:28

to them, the water crisis

4:31

is a daily struggle to

4:33

make sure that they have enough

4:36

water in order to kind

4:38

of live the day. And then when you're struggling

4:41

day to day like that, that water crisis becomes

4:43

like a family health crisis,

4:45

it becomes an education crisis,

4:47

it becomes lack of employment

4:50

crisis because your focus so much

4:52

on getting water or paying for water

4:54

that you're not in school, you're not healthy,

4:57

and so it is basically

4:59

something that's right now robbing

5:01

hundreds of millions of people of their futures

5:04

because until you have water, nothing

5:06

else matters. Thank you for that, Gary,

5:08

I really appreciate that. And the

5:11

main thing that I'm hearing there is just

5:13

we think of people just not having water to drink,

5:16

and then it's almost like, well, wait a minute, let's think about

5:18

the act of getting water and what that

5:21

takes away time from i e. Their

5:23

economic space, their home space, their family,

5:25

the cooking, the feeding that, you

5:27

know, everything that it expands out to. So

5:30

thank you for that. I want to extend the same question

5:32

to you as well. I'd love to hear about for

5:34

you personally, what you see

5:36

is the issue so well, I think Gary just

5:39

did a pretty good summary there. But to

5:41

follow on to that, I would just say that the

5:43

effect of that, right, leaving

5:46

aside the needless

5:48

disease and death right that occurs when

5:50

you don't have access to clean water and sanitation,

5:53

you know, because we're losing a million children

5:56

under the age of five, you know, to every

5:59

year to completely preventable illness,

6:01

right and and and so that's

6:03

its own tragedy, right. But but

6:06

when you look at the other effects

6:08

of not having access, namely, you

6:10

know, because this disproportionately

6:13

affects women and girls. Uh,

6:15

so many girls aren't in school because

6:17

they they have to for

6:20

the sake of the survival of their families,

6:22

be out looking for water every day and

6:24

so and so you can imagine what that

6:27

does to the to the outcomes

6:29

of their of their lives and to their potential.

6:31

So it's not only this this needless

6:34

disease and suffering. It's it's also

6:36

robbing people of their potential in

6:38

ways that are really incalculable. Um.

6:41

And that was the very first water collection

6:43

I went on. Um this is fifteen

6:46

sixteen years ago, and I was

6:48

in Zambia in this really rural village

6:51

and and I was it had

6:53

been arranged for me to meet this girl when she got home

6:55

from school, and we walked together to

6:57

this well and and and I talked to her.

6:59

It was about a mile away. And

7:01

in the course of our conversation, I

7:04

said, you know, I said, are you going to live here for

7:07

the rest of your life? Is this where you want to live? And

7:09

she got really shy and she goes, no, No, I don't want to live

7:11

here. I want to go to the big city. We're in this

7:13

really rural area that she goes, I want to go to Lusaka.

7:15

I want to be a nurse, right, and

7:18

and I totally just connected

7:20

to her because I remembered being fourteen

7:22

and I was going to go to the big city with Ben Affleck

7:24

and we were going to be actors. We were going to New York and

7:27

and uh and that's like what a fourteen

7:29

year old should be thinking about, right, They should

7:31

be dreaming about their futures and the

7:34

possibility that awaited them. And it

7:36

wasn't until I got in the car and was

7:38

driving away that I realized, had it not

7:40

been for the foresight of someone to sink a borewell

7:42

a mile from this kid's house, she wouldn't

7:45

have been in school, you know, she wouldn't

7:47

she wouldn't dream of someday being a nurse

7:49

and contributing to the economic

7:51

engine of her country, and and and and helping

7:53

people, you know, being a health frontline healthcare worker,

7:55

you know, all the things that and living

7:58

her dream really right, and so and

8:00

so that was kind of an

8:02

epiphany for me. And and and just

8:04

the far reaching effect of lack

8:06

of access, because I really found

8:09

that it underpinned everything,

8:11

It undergirds every issue of extreme poverty,

8:13

It touches all of them. And so the

8:15

fact that nobody was really talking about it, and

8:19

it was this vastly interesting and complex thing,

8:21

massive problem that that was

8:23

what first got me really interested. Yeah,

8:27

that's beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I

8:29

think there was a line in the book that really struck me. And

8:31

you said that for that girl, water

8:33

was life, and it was also a

8:35

shot at a better life. And when

8:37

you make that comparison of what

8:39

you were thinking about at fourteen, what

8:42

she's thinking about at fourteen, now I'm thinking about

8:44

what I was thinking about at fourteen. And I would encourage

8:46

our listeners and viewers right now. And

8:48

Gary, I'm sure you've thought about this many times, but

8:51

I'd like everyone who's listening and watching to think, what were

8:53

you thinking about at fourteen? What was your choice that

8:55

you were having to make? And you just realize

8:57

how far off it is from

9:00

someone who doesn't have access to water and clean

9:02

water, and that just

9:04

makes you start pause and think and go wow,

9:06

Like I may think I may not have this opportunity,

9:08

or I may not have enough money to move to

9:10

a city, but it's like here we're talking about

9:13

not even having water and clean water

9:15

to have access to, let alone all

9:17

those choices. One thing

9:19

that comes to mind, and I want to hear this from both of you

9:21

because you know this has been work that

9:23

you've been doing for a number of years. This is

9:25

not something that you know, both

9:28

of you've just got involved with. Then you

9:30

know it's it's it's your life's work. It's

9:32

it's it's something you're truly passionate about

9:35

when you first saw the pain for both

9:37

of you, when you first when I hear those numbers,

9:39

seven hundred and seventy one million people,

9:42

is that right? Did I get that a number? Right? Gary? Like seven

9:44

hundred and seventy one million people you know don't

9:46

have access to clean water.

9:48

When I'm hearing Matts you share

9:50

the statistic just right now, we're losing a million

9:52

children at Yeah. When I'm

9:55

hearing those numbers, they are so high,

9:57

right, they're astronomical. I

9:59

hear a lot to people when they're exposed to that

10:01

much pain. Our natural inclination

10:04

is to feel like we can't do

10:06

anything, And our natural inclination

10:09

is to feel a bit helpless, to feel

10:11

sad, to feel disheartened. We

10:14

feel like our empathy takes over and we go, well,

10:17

what can I do? When you first

10:19

saw that, what gave both of you the

10:22

feeling a that you had to do something,

10:24

but be that what you do could

10:26

make a difference. Let's start there, and then

10:29

I'll follow up with another question. Let's start

10:31

there, and Garrett, you can go first again. For us,

10:34

I came at it from a

10:36

kind of an almost analytical perspective

10:39

after I had that emotional response to

10:41

it. Right, So, when I was in Guatemala

10:44

as an undergraduate, you know, in university,

10:46

doing a volunteer project there, just seeing

10:49

this girl going

10:51

and collecting this filthy water out

10:53

of a drum, you know, in the slums, and walking back

10:55

through this sewage filled lane

10:59

that that to me was

11:01

one person, right, and then coming back and

11:03

then learning that this was the story for

11:06

hundreds of millions of people, I

11:09

didn't get discouraged. I just like could

11:11

see that one person and it's like, okay, if

11:13

we can just kind of tackle this, you know,

11:16

even one person at a time, that was

11:18

kind of the idealistic view of it. And

11:20

and so to me, what's

11:23

been important about this journey that we

11:25

kind of chronicle in the in the book is

11:28

that you know, you have to have that

11:30

in goal in mind, and that can

11:32

be daunting to see that. You know, our vision

11:35

is that everyone in our lifetime, you know,

11:37

has access to say water, and

11:40

that the challenge that becomes

11:42

to match the scale of the solution to the scale

11:44

of the problem. Right, And I knew

11:47

that philanthropy alone wasn't going

11:49

to be that solution. Philanthropy has

11:51

a role to play, but it was only

11:53

by traveling in meeting women who

11:56

were in these circumstances. I met a woman

11:58

in India who had gone

12:00

to a loan shark and was paying one hundred and fifty

12:02

percent interest to that loan shark just

12:04

so she could build the toilet that she wanted

12:07

other people who are doing this to taking

12:09

out loans for water connections at

12:11

exorbitant rates and then using

12:13

those insights and saying, well, what if you know, we could

12:16

turn the problem around and look at like getting these

12:18

people access to these small loans what

12:20

we now call water credit that would

12:22

then unleash them to get the solutions that they

12:24

wanted. So I'm getting a bit ahead of myself

12:26

here, but my point is that you

12:28

just have to take the problem a step

12:30

at a time and find a solution

12:33

that's there, evolve it, get

12:35

the insights, and move on, and that is

12:37

the journey. And I think that's one of these kind of the

12:39

subplots I guess of the book is

12:41

that any of these seemingly intractable,

12:44

big social problems do have

12:46

solutions. If you're tenacious,

12:49

if you innovate, and you

12:51

work hard at it, you believe

12:54

that we can get there. Yeah. That's I would

12:56

just say it's interesting because because I had the

12:58

exact same kind of reaction

13:01

that Gary did, which was to say,

13:04

Okay, well, I'm this is

13:06

a this is a complex issue, and I don't understand

13:08

it entirely, but I know

13:11

that if I raise money, if I create an

13:13

organization and raise money and start

13:16

start doing his direct impact.

13:18

We're building wells, right, I've seen the

13:20

power of one well, so

13:23

if it if a thousand people

13:26

have access to that one, well, then I've helped

13:28

a thousand people. So why don't I start there?

13:30

Why don't I just start moving forward?

13:32

Why don't I start as Gary's you know, take

13:35

that first step. I don't know where the road is

13:37

going, but I know I'm

13:39

not getting there if I don't start walking. And

13:41

so so that was what and so I

13:44

did, I'm sure incredibly naive

13:46

things. And I didn't you know, and and

13:49

Gary, you know when we met in the two thousand

13:51

and eight Gary, you know, we talked about in the

13:53

book, Gary led with all of his failures,

13:55

right, which was an incredible attractive

13:57

thing, incredibly attractive thing to me because I think

14:00

that is how, you know, we

14:02

can't be afraid of failure, We can't be afraid

14:04

of you know, that can't stop

14:06

our momentum, right, And it's how

14:08

we learn, and it's how we grow um.

14:11

And and and so I I

14:14

knew that I had to partner with somebody

14:17

who had a more sophisticated understanding

14:19

of of of this issue, and

14:22

I looked around for the the best

14:24

person available and uh

14:27

and when they would not take my call, I

14:30

found Gary,

14:34

So no I

14:36

and and and that was really the one

14:39

thing that I did, and this all of this work,

14:41

that was really I'm

14:44

really happy that I did that. It was that

14:46

it was really one of the smartest choices I've ever

14:49

made in my life. And because

14:51

of this water credit that Gary is

14:53

talking about, which was this idea that that came

14:55

from his experience and his lifetime of

14:57

experience of being in these communities and talk

15:00

to people and understanding what life

15:02

was like. He also understood that people

15:04

in the poorest communities were paying for water.

15:07

They were already paying for it, and in most

15:09

cases paying way more than the middle class,

15:11

way more than the people staying in the fancy hotels,

15:14

you know, who take it totally for granted. They

15:17

weren't connected to the infrastructure and as a

15:19

result, their life was built around trying

15:21

to get it. And uh. And so

15:24

that insight led him to this hypothesis

15:26

that these loans could actually be paid

15:28

back quite easily. And that's what you

15:31

know, forty three point seven million people later,

15:34

you know, these loans have paid back at over ninety

15:36

nine percent. So it's really the

15:39

book is really us trying to bring the story

15:41

of these women because you know, you know,

15:43

over ninety percent of our borrowers or women

15:46

and this kind of incredibly

15:49

heroic women like an individual

15:52

with you know, one by one by one, you

15:54

know, to the tune of millions and millions of them

15:56

have paid these loans back at at over

15:59

ninety nine percent. And it's just a it's a beautiful

16:01

story and it's and it's about philosophically

16:04

how we feel about about

16:06

trying to help. It's not a kind of paternalistic

16:09

here's your solution, You're welcome.

16:12

It's like it's going into the

16:14

communities and and and and listening

16:16

and then ultimately nudging

16:18

a market towards people and letting

16:20

them solve their own problems. And that's

16:23

what we've seen happen now over forty three million

16:25

times. And that's really cool. Yeah,

16:27

that's that's an incredible impact. And

16:30

I love the way you're thinking about it and the idea that

16:32

there isn't just a one size fits

16:34

all solution. It's not about throwing money at it. It's

16:36

actually giving people the tools and the skills and the

16:39

abilities, as you've rightly said, to solve their

16:41

own challenges so that they feel empowered

16:43

in the process rather than dependent

16:45

again on another outside

16:47

source. In another way, I mean, can you

16:50

expand more for those who don't know how

16:53

the lack of access to water impacts girls

16:55

and women's more than boys and men, and

16:58

and when you uncovered that tell

17:00

us some of the reasons, because I don't know if everyone knows why

17:03

or how that exists as

17:05

a discrepancy, but also tell us

17:07

some of the stories of some of the women that you've worked with as well.

17:10

Women and girls have been the ones and

17:12

families that have been charged with collecting

17:14

the water for their households

17:16

almost universally around the world.

17:18

So they obviously have the greatest

17:21

stake in this, and the greatest

17:23

stake in trying to find a solution,

17:25

and the greatest stake in ensuring

17:27

that that solution is

17:29

sustainable. And that

17:32

to us, you know, is like

17:34

an insight, that's an observation. So

17:37

it's like, well, let's how are

17:39

we going to shape our solutions

17:41

to meet their needs? And that's why

17:43

you know, more than eighty five percent

17:46

of the borrowers under

17:48

our water credit program are women,

17:50

and so they're the ones that are repaying these loans

17:53

at a ninety nine percent rate, and

17:56

they are the ones that have even more incentive

17:58

to make sure that if something breaks down, that

18:00

it gets repaired. And I think that's one of

18:02

the beauties of water

18:04

credit as well, because oftentimes

18:07

water projects do break down. You know, some of the statistics

18:09

are that about half of the water projects

18:12

fail after five years. And

18:14

if you have access

18:16

to an ecosystem of finance

18:19

for water and sanitation, not just a

18:21

one and done grant, but you can access

18:23

a micro loan to go get the

18:25

the you know, solution that you need to fix

18:28

you know, your your your water tap or

18:30

whatever. That is an important part

18:32

of the whole model and giving

18:34

people you know, we talk about, you know,

18:36

not necessarily seeing people living in

18:38

poverty as a charity problem to be solved,

18:41

as much as a market to be served. And

18:44

in order to kind of make the market work, we

18:46

have to kind of nudget towards the poor,

18:48

which is what we do with with water dot

18:50

org to help, you know, get

18:53

microfinance institutions that we

18:55

partner with around the world the to

18:57

de risk this for them because it's a new thing

18:59

to loan for water and toilets, and they're not

19:01

quite sure how it works. So we can

19:04

use our philanthropic capital to

19:06

kind of help them do market research to design

19:08

these loan products so that they

19:10

can go out and make these forty three million

19:13

loans that have happened so far. And

19:15

that is kind of the concept.

19:18

And you know, one way to just boil it down

19:20

with a story, right A woman

19:22

I met in the Philippines recently. Her name was Lunadiza,

19:26

and she was

19:28

paying sixty dollars a month to a water

19:30

vendor who was selling water off the back of a

19:32

truck, not even good quality water. And

19:35

she took out a loan from one of our partners, and

19:37

her loan repayment her

19:40

payment each month is five dollars.

19:42

Her water bill each month is

19:45

five dollars. So right there, you see

19:47

fifty dollars back

19:49

in her pocket. I mean, think about you know, when

19:51

you're living in poverty, fifty dollars is a

19:53

lot of money. You can now work to

19:56

get your kids into school. You know, you can

19:58

now afford the medicines that you might need for

20:00

your for your family. You can invest in your future

20:02

and build a future. And I think that's

20:05

what we're trying to help people unlock,

20:08

and that's whose stories you know, we're fortunate

20:10

to be able to tell in the book. Yeah,

20:13

Gary, that what I find fascinating there,

20:15

Matt, just before we come to you that how

20:18

have those obviously those water vendors

20:20

who are not selling the clean water or

20:22

the best word, they've built up a certain level of

20:25

authority and control and these markets,

20:27

and like how is that

20:30

is that being dismantled as well by you doing

20:33

this work? Like where where are those people? Like?

20:35

Kind of because I feel like that is

20:38

so difficult obviously if you're not if you haven't traveled

20:40

to these countries, it's hard for people to understand how

20:42

that even works. But but that

20:44

kind of like authority, influence

20:46

and power and control, how are

20:49

they reacting to the dismantling of their

20:51

economies? Because I'm sure that there's you

20:53

know, conflict or pain back from that side,

20:55

Like how does that all work? Sorry if it's an ignorant

20:58

question, but it's just no, no,

21:01

no at all. And I think that I

21:03

guess one thing to understand is that

21:05

even they are not making a

21:07

fortune off of this system, right,

21:10

It's uh, it's just really expensive

21:12

to find water, to put it in a

21:14

truck, to buy the diesel, to drive the truck around

21:16

and distribute it. I mean, the efficiency of that

21:19

versus doing it through a pipe is incredible,

21:21

right, So it's no surprise that they have to charge

21:24

those amounts. And so

21:27

yes, there's going to be dislocations there

21:29

with with some of these vendors, but we

21:31

haven't seen that crop up as a problem. You know,

21:33

it happens incrementally. You know, everybody

21:36

in the world is used to kind of having

21:38

to reinvent themselves, and so I

21:40

think that you know, they might go on

21:42

to other businesses and you

21:45

have tanker truck water that's needed for construction site

21:48

still, so they can kind of adjust to those

21:50

types of markets. But that makes sense,

21:52

and that what about you? Is there a particular story?

21:56

I mean, there's plenty in the book, but if if there's

21:59

someone that comes to mind, now where you

22:01

know you saw women being more negatively

22:04

affected by this than men.

22:06

Obviously we've got the answer of why from Gary, But

22:08

is there a particular story that stands out or an experience

22:11

in that direction. About eleven

22:13

years ago, we were in Haiti and at

22:16

a we kind

22:18

of were there for the kind of the christening of this new

22:20

water system in this small village, and it was

22:22

a real celebration. And amidst

22:25

this celebration, I was introduced to a little

22:27

girl who was thirteen, and you

22:30

know, she and I got her story,

22:32

and her story was that she spent three to four hours

22:34

every day collecting water. And

22:36

she was very lucky because that was she could still

22:38

be in school. But after school, every day

22:41

she went and she collected water. Took

22:43

her three or four hours to get water for a family. So

22:45

I say to this kid, I'm like, well, hey, you

22:47

know, I kind of joke and say, now you have more time

22:49

for homework, right, And

22:51

she looks at me totally seriously, and she's

22:54

like, I don't need more time to do homework. I'm

22:56

the smartest kid in my class. And

22:58

the way she said it, I knew she was telling

23:01

me the truth. I was like, oh, I remember being

23:03

thirteen, and like, I remember you in my class.

23:05

You are this one. And uh

23:07

And I said, all right, well, so what are you going to do with all this

23:09

time that you just found that, you know,

23:11

your your new found four hours a day. And

23:14

she looked at me and she goes I'm gonna play.

23:17

Wow. Yeah, and I just in it.

23:19

But it like buckled me, you know, I

23:21

because at the time, my oldest daughter

23:24

was thirteen, and you know,

23:26

so again I felt that connection to this kid

23:29

and like, what else should a thirteen year old girl

23:31

be thinking about, you know, she should be thinking about

23:33

playing? And that's you know again another

23:35

one of those incalculable ways in which

23:38

this is so pernicious, right. It just robs

23:40

people of you know, in this case, it

23:42

robs children of their childhoods, you know, and they're

23:45

there and then their potential, the potential of their adulthood.

23:47

So um so so yeah,

23:50

it's things like that, and it's good

23:52

for us. You know. We go out about once

23:54

a year. I I I go once a year. Gary

23:56

goes a little quite a lot more often, but um

24:00

to to kind of go to these do these field

24:02

visits and kind of connect to people and talk. And

24:04

it's just because as these numbers are accelerating

24:06

and we're and we're kind of going from strength to strength

24:09

with our with our with our work, which

24:11

is really exciting, it's it's

24:13

important to kind of keep and you know,

24:15

keep remind ourselves

24:17

of of of what it means because it becomes

24:19

numbers. Forty three point seven million people, I

24:21

mean, what a number. But you know,

24:24

I'm I'm still thinking about a girl I met

24:26

twelve years ago, you know, And and so there are a lot

24:28

there's so many millions of these people that

24:30

will never meet. But um, but all

24:32

of the stories are are like that,

24:35

you know, and this is all about

24:37

positive change.

24:40

Yeah. Absolutely. As a follow up to that matter,

24:42

how is how is your work with

24:44

those people affected your daughter too? Because I'm

24:46

intrigued as to how you know, for

24:48

her seeing her father, you know, be so

24:50

service focused and you know,

24:52

giving energy to this like have you taken

24:55

have you and Gary too, have you taken your kids

24:57

out? Like you know, have have you taken other children

24:59

out? Young people out? I'm just fascinating to hear how

25:01

it feels when you're looking at someone your age

25:04

as opposed to both of you obviously as older

25:06

men looking at younger people, but like to have

25:09

people looking at people their own age who have this mindset.

25:11

I would love to hear some stories in that regard. I

25:14

talk about in the book My Mom and and how

25:16

she took me as a teenager to

25:19

hit places where I witnessed extreme poverty

25:21

and it was you know, and she didn't do

25:23

any finger wagging at me or lecturing. She just

25:25

let me absorb it. And it

25:28

really impacted me. And so

25:30

my kids are what our oldest

25:32

is twenty three, and so she's out of the nest. And

25:34

then we've got a fifteen to thirteen and eleven

25:36

year old. And so I've taken the twenty

25:38

three year old and and uh, and I've taken

25:41

our fifteen year old. We took her on a trip to the

25:43

Philippines a few years ago, so she might

25:45

have been thirteen at the time. You

25:48

know, it's it's kind of eat different with each kid.

25:51

You kind of see why at what age can you is

25:53

this gonna be positive?

25:55

Positive? You know, it's it's just gonna

25:59

influence you posatively. And so

26:01

I took my my, my daughter

26:03

and her best friend on a

26:05

trip and it was and it was great. And it's

26:08

you know, letting

26:10

them absorb, you know, with

26:12

the kind of privilege that they have and they

26:15

come from and that you know, this is all

26:17

about where you're born, and you're born into a

26:19

family you don't have any you know, say

26:21

over it, and uh, and

26:23

and and letting them try to put their let

26:25

them try to put their lives in some context,

26:27

which is how I felt, what I felt happened

26:29

to me when when I when I when

26:32

my mother introduced me to a

26:34

larger world, Suddenly

26:37

my life started to make more sense, right

26:39

and I and you know, we're all trapped in

26:41

these subjective realities and limited

26:43

by them in some way. But I feel like travel

26:46

and experience like this is kind of the greatest

26:48

gift because it helps at least to

26:50

try to open us up. Yeah. I think that's

26:52

beautiful what you said about gauging when

26:54

it's right for the individual, because

26:57

everyone, you know, there's no right age

26:59

for any of them to have this experience, but really

27:02

making it personalized, I think that makes a lot of sense.

27:04

Gary. How about you, I'd love to hear your thoughts

27:07

on this. I had a chance to take my daughter

27:09

to Kenya and Ethiopia when

27:12

she was about the same age as MAT's daughter,

27:14

when we were in the Philippines, and uh,

27:17

yeah, it's it's you know, those

27:19

types of experiences you never know how

27:22

they're going to reverberate later,

27:24

you know, certainly, you know,

27:27

uh, you know, having

27:29

that experience helped shape

27:31

her. You know, she's done some great volunteer

27:33

work herself. She was a volunteer teacher,

27:35

you know, after she got out of college, and

27:38

so I think some of the echoes of what she saw

27:40

there and experience there, and the fortune that she has

27:43

relative to many others in the world as

27:45

has cropped up and will continue to. Yeah.

27:48

Absolutely, I want you to explain Gary. We've

27:50

mentioned it a few times now, uh,

27:52

and of course you talk about it deeply in the book.

27:54

For our audience, I'd love to for you to explain

27:57

exactly, in a simple way, how warter credit

27:59

work. And then, Matt, I want you to talk about

28:01

when you actually, you

28:04

know, you had a hard time accepting the idea

28:06

behind water credit, and then what made you change

28:08

your mind to it, because I think that's what I

28:10

find fascinating about this partnership between both

28:12

of you is that it

28:14

wasn't just like this, Oh we both loved

28:16

this, let's get on, you know, it wasn't It wasn't as simple

28:18

as that. There's there's been a lot of planning,

28:21

thought, intention behind this partnership between

28:23

both of you, and I'd love to understand

28:25

that's Gary, if you can explain what it is how it works,

28:27

how it functions. We've obviously heard about some of the

28:29

benefits and some elements of how it

28:31

works, but I just want people to have a really clear

28:33

idea and then Matt, if you could tell us

28:35

about your journey with how you

28:37

change your mind about it, that would be great for sure.

28:40

I mean, I'd be happy to I think, you know, it is

28:42

rooted in that concept that people

28:45

are already paying for water right

28:48

the challenges they don't have that you

28:50

know, two three hundred, four hundred dollars

28:52

up front that they need to get

28:55

a water connection, or to build a toilet at

28:57

their home, or to install a handpumper

29:00

a water tank, and so they

29:02

are struggling day to day. They can afford

29:05

you know, a dollar or two a day to get water,

29:07

but they can't afford those those large investments.

29:10

And so what we saw, you

29:12

know, we saw that people were struggling with

29:14

this, and so it's like, well, what if we

29:16

could get microfinance institutions that

29:18

are already operating around the world just

29:21

to make loans to them. That makes complete

29:23

sense, right, and then they would repay the loans. Well, we

29:26

went knocking on the doors of a lot of

29:28

those MFIs microfinance institutions,

29:30

and we kind of got the door slammed in our face, Like,

29:32

you guys don't understand microfinance. It's about

29:35

income generating loans. You know, we make loans

29:37

for sewing machines or cows because

29:39

like, by the end of the week, you're generating

29:42

revenue because you're selling clothes and you're

29:44

selling milk, and this is why it works. And

29:46

we're like, but we believe it will

29:48

work because it's going to help these people

29:50

work at paying jobs and you know that part

29:52

of it. So it's like we'll take on the risk.

29:55

And this is why we raise philanthropic

29:57

capital because we need to make grants to a

29:59

lot of these part so that they can

30:01

derisk these types of loans, so that they

30:03

can do the market research and understand

30:05

what things are good to loan for, what technologies

30:07

are good, which ones are not, to help them

30:10

then launch lending businesses.

30:12

Once they do, then they go to

30:15

the capital markets and get

30:17

the wholesale capital, then break it into

30:19

millions of these micro loans. And

30:21

so for a woman who gets that loan

30:24

literally overnight, you know, she may have been

30:26

spending three hours a day securing water the

30:28

day before. She now has a water tap

30:31

right at her home, and so literally

30:33

the values created overnight for her

30:35

to go out and work at a paying job so that she

30:38

can repay the loan. And now you fast

30:40

forward in these loans, three

30:43

point five billion dollars in loans

30:45

have gone out and they're repaid at a ninety

30:48

nine percent rate. Over

30:50

eighty five percent of the borrowers live on

30:52

less than six dollars a day, about

30:55

thirty percent live on less than two dollars

30:57

a day, and yet they keep

30:59

coming for word to take out these loans

31:01

because it makes sense for them, and

31:04

they get the solutions that they want, and

31:06

they don't feel like a charity case anymore.

31:09

They feel like a market as a customer

31:11

that's being served. And that's how

31:14

the whole thing can work financially. So

31:16

that we've now got the financial

31:18

plumbing, if you will, that connects

31:21

the global capital markets where people can get

31:23

a financial return on their investment. Two

31:25

women making a few dollars a day, everybody

31:28

wins and we all move forward.

31:31

Yeah, Gary, thank you for that. Thanks for connecting the dots.

31:33

I know we talked about, you know, parts

31:35

of that all over this conversation so far.

31:37

But that was a really comprehensive breakdown,

31:39

and I think that really helps because

31:42

there's so many facets of that that I think is

31:44

new. It's just so new, it's so alien

31:47

to us, which just shows

31:49

how big an issue it is and how

31:51

much emphasis it needs. And Matt tell us about

31:53

when you first had the idea and you were skeptical slightly,

31:56

I guess, and then you obviously have come

31:58

around one was excited

32:00

about it as I, as

32:03

you know, as I kind of drilled down on

32:05

it and and and and really worked it over

32:08

with Gary and thought about it. But

32:10

there there was the aspect of it

32:12

that was a little stomach turning, which was, wait

32:14

a minute, we're going to make people, the poorest

32:17

people on earth pay for you know. I mean they're gonna

32:19

take these, We're gonna loan the money. We're not gonna

32:21

right. But but philosophically

32:23

we're very aligned in this idea about you

32:25

know, charity quote unquote

32:28

charity, and and and and how

32:30

as you like like there's a paternalistic

32:32

aspect to it. There's a there's a kind

32:35

of you know, here's your solution, You're welcome, you

32:37

know, uh, arrogance

32:40

about it oftentimes. And

32:44

and and what Gary's talking about

32:46

is with these loan programs, the dignity

32:49

that come with them, right, And it's it's

32:51

it's the dignity on the side

32:53

of the borrower, but it's also on the

32:55

side of the lender kind of going. I see

32:57

you as a human being. You're a customer,

33:00

you know what I mean, we can do business. It's

33:03

a very different relationship than you're

33:05

just some problem I got to throw money at, right,

33:08

and and so

33:10

so I I got over that pretty

33:12

quickly, you know. I mean, my stomach is like, oh god,

33:14

market based solutions, Oh no, what

33:16

am I doing? But um but

33:19

when I really thought about it, and you

33:21

know, it struck me as completely

33:24

brilliant and um. And

33:26

and that's been borne out. I mean, we you know, we reached

33:29

our first million people in twenty twelve,

33:31

and and now you know we're

33:34

you know, we're at forty three million, we're reaching you

33:36

know, however many million a quarter now, um,

33:39

And it's just really accelerating and that

33:41

and that is illustrative of of you know, the

33:45

demand, right, the demand for these

33:48

loans because they make sense

33:50

and um. And it's not that paternalistic

33:53

kind of charity solution that's going to

33:55

be not working in five years because

33:57

it's nobody's going to take a loan out for something

33:59

they don't want. Yeah,

34:02

yeah, they know what solution

34:04

they need, and that's what they're going to take a loan out

34:06

for. And it's going to work. And that's a sustainable

34:08

solution for somebody. And it's also them

34:11

solving their own problem. And and it

34:13

just took us to to to to nudge

34:15

the market towards them and let them

34:17

claim their own agency and and and solve

34:20

their own problem with with

34:22

dignity. Yeah, I think that point

34:24

in dignity is so powerful

34:26

and so important. It's I

34:29

know exactly what you mean. It takes a while to get it around

34:31

there because you're like,

34:33

wait a minute, are we charging people for you

34:35

know, like how how does this work? But yeah,

34:38

and they're going like if you're going across the desert

34:40

and you see somebody, you know, thirsty,

34:42

you know, and then you sell them a bottle of water, like

34:46

you know, it doesn't it doesn't feel right,

34:49

you know. Yeah. Yeah, but but you're

34:51

saying as as you rightly said that from a

34:53

long term perspective and from a sustainability

34:55

perspective, this person is now building confidence.

34:57

They're they're building it, as you said, a sense of

35:00

agency. They're feeling empowered, they're feeling a

35:02

sense of assurance that they are growing

35:05

through this journey as well, and they're able to, as

35:07

you said, learn it for things that are important to them.

35:10

Tell me about this partnership for change

35:12

that you both have, because I

35:14

think, you know, I wonder whether when both of you

35:16

got passionate, because as far as I know, you got passionate

35:18

independently and then of course connected

35:21

with each other about this cause when

35:23

you're looking for a partnership for change,

35:26

I think that can you know, take a

35:28

lot of time, effort, patience.

35:31

There's so many things that need to align. If

35:33

there are people in our community audience thinking

35:36

right now, like I'd love to have someone else in my life

35:38

that I could work with passionately about this, or

35:40

I would love to find someone what are some of the

35:42

things that they should look for, Matt. We obviously know Gary

35:44

was your second choice, so we'll start

35:46

with what you're looking for in your first choice. And

35:49

Gary, I'm sure you had some other picks too, but

35:52

no, I would love to know what you were looking for an a

35:54

partner. Were you even looking or was it just

35:57

it was just so like, oh wow, I'm

35:59

so grateful that I've bumped into someone who has this passion.

36:01

From both of your perspectives, I'd love to hear how

36:04

you approach this, because making a change is

36:06

not easy. It's a long journey. You

36:09

need different skill sets and different

36:11

networks and communities, and so I

36:13

often think that a lot of people say, oh, yeah, when

36:15

when I find someone, then I can do something. You

36:18

were both independently. I mean, Gary, you started

36:20

in your college days, right, So I

36:22

want to hear about how

36:24

it was in the search of a partner, the

36:27

pursuit of the partner, and then what you actually looked

36:29

for and why it was a good fit. Well,

36:32

I was looking for the expert in the space,

36:34

and that Gary's name was the name that kept

36:36

coming up, and um and

36:39

and in getting to know him, it was just clear

36:42

why. And I mean he's just brilliant

36:44

and these I mean this water credit innovation

36:46

is a really big deal. Um

36:49

and uh and and and he arrived

36:51

at that through his through his intelligence,

36:53

but also through his tenacity. And so

36:57

he was he was a logical partner for me exactly

37:00

what I was looking for. I you know, I kind

37:03

of woke up in my late twenties

37:05

with this very bizarre reality

37:09

of being a celebrity and and uh and

37:11

and and wanted to find

37:13

ways to do something good with

37:15

that and

37:18

and I needed help, you

37:20

know, and I wanted to be effective.

37:22

I didn't want to just It wasn't about soothing my

37:24

own you know, ego.

37:27

It was about really trying to do something

37:29

that was helpful. Um and

37:31

uh. And I think just in meeting Gary, like

37:33

you know, we we joined our organizations

37:36

and he had had Water Partners at that point

37:38

for twenty years and instantly gave

37:40

up the title of Water Partners and for water

37:42

dot org. And I think that showed like the

37:45

humility, the lack of ego,

37:48

right, And I think we both came at it from that perspective.

37:50

It was never about us or

37:52

about ego. It was really about

37:54

how can we be most effective? Right

37:56

and that and we're really aligned in

37:59

that way and um and in that sense,

38:01

it's just the perfect partner for me. That's

38:03

beautiful. You you made up for it, Matt. That

38:05

was very half half out and uh,

38:08

now January that that's that's so wonderful

38:10

to hear. I love hearing about that, and

38:12

and the quality of humility and like

38:14

you said, being able to put aside water partners

38:16

and start something on the water doorg.

38:19

That's fantastic, Gary, Gary your thoughts. Yeah,

38:21

I think, uh, you know, the serendipity

38:24

of it was, that's definitely a play

38:27

allowing our paths to cross. But certainly,

38:30

you know, I had been heads down on this problem

38:32

and had been trying to innovate and you

38:34

know, this this whole concept of you

38:37

know, coming at it from. You know, initially

38:39

I was very much about like, let's go drill wells

38:42

and let's uh, you know, raise

38:44

a lot of money and give it away, but quickly

38:47

realized that there was never going to be enough, right,

38:49

and so this concept of

38:51

lighting a candle versus cursing the darkness

38:53

is kind of where where I came at it

38:55

from. And so I was trying

38:58

to to find those ways to do that,

39:00

and we you know, we were catching on. You know, the water

39:02

credit was was like it wasn't

39:04

like game Busters yet, but we

39:06

knew that we kind of had you know, a tiger

39:09

by the tail in terms of how this could

39:11

scale and but you know, I'm

39:13

an engineer, Like I don't what do I know about storytelling?

39:16

What do I know about like moving an audience?

39:18

What do I know about like having a

39:20

big voice in this? Because we were ready

39:22

for that, because it we you

39:25

know, we had a certain amount of humility until

39:27

that point. And then it's like, now we got to tell

39:30

the story and then to be able to get

39:32

introduced to and cross paths with, you know, an

39:34

incredible storyteller that Matt is,

39:36

and seeing that firsthand, it just

39:38

was, you know, it

39:40

was one of those things one plus one equals

39:43

three D for sure, and

39:45

it seemed that way at first for both of us.

39:47

But then as we got to know each other kind

39:49

of at a deeper level, our

39:51

philosophies and our upbringings and our

39:53

experiences, it's just like, Okay,

39:55

I can really trust this guy. I think we've both

39:58

felt that for both directions. And once

40:00

you have that trust and you have you know,

40:02

everything set in motion, it's kind of a table

40:04

set for you and you bring

40:06

those relative strengths. Uh. You

40:08

know, I can certainly say Matt has evolved

40:11

more as a water expert than I have as an actor.

40:14

But there

40:17

but what I also he didn't tell you

40:19

earlier is I went to Ben Affleck first, he turned

40:21

me down. I love

40:25

it. I love it. You've both been so generous with your

40:27

time. I have one last question, which is just

40:29

how people can support. Of course, I highly recommend everyone

40:31

goes and grabs a copy of the book The Worth of

40:34

Water, our story of chasing solutions

40:36

to the world's greatest challenge. It will be in

40:39

the comments, the caption, the bio, the

40:41

link in the podcast. You can go and order the book

40:43

right now. But Gary, you used a water

40:46

metaphor at the end of the chapter

40:49

of the chapter called the wave, and you said

40:51

to end the crisis, we need

40:53

a wave. I would love to know how

40:55

my community can be a part of that wave.

40:57

How I can be a part of that wave. What

41:00

are the opportunities and ways people can get

41:02

involved, because I think

41:04

ultimately there's there's going to be no one who

41:06

reads the book that isn't moved by the work. Who

41:08

everything you've shared today, I think we'll want to move

41:11

people into action. How can people support

41:13

That's that's the last question I want to ask you, because I

41:15

know I'm mindful of your time as well.

41:18

That's a great question, and you know this, we

41:20

do need that support. This is such a big crisis.

41:22

It's all hands on deck and there are a

41:24

number of ways. Of course, you know, as

41:27

authors, Matt and I are donating all of our

41:29

fees back to water dot org for the book.

41:31

So every time somebody buys the book,

41:34

you are helping people get access to safe

41:36

water. You know, if the book moves you take

41:38

it to your book club, you know, spread

41:41

the word that way, you know, pass the book

41:43

on to someone else, because

41:46

it is you know, these individual

41:48

acts of people who provide that

41:51

that funding that we need so that

41:53

these individual stories that are in the book can

41:55

come to life. That is what it's

41:57

going to take from from all of us. And

42:00

to the extent that you know you're using your

42:02

voice, Jay to help make this happen,

42:04

We greatly appreciate. Yeah. Absolutely,

42:07

No, I would love to visit one

42:09

of the places with you one day. I think it would be a really beautiful

42:12

experience for me my team too, So we would

42:14

love to have it. Yeah, Yeah, that would be really

42:16

Yeah, that would be really beautiful. That would be wonderful

42:18

to do. So, Matt, did

42:20

you want to add anything to everything that Garager

42:23

said? Of how anyone can get involved or anything that comes

42:25

to your mind or hot well, yeah, I mean it's

42:27

five dollars to bring a person clean water

42:29

for life. And uh, you know, so

42:31

it's not you know, yeah, I

42:33

know, it's it's it's it's crazy, but but

42:35

that's what it is. And and uh and

42:38

yeah, and the book obviously, you know, uh

42:40

will you know all the you know, our money

42:42

goes towards that, so um

42:44

so yeah, and and and please share

42:47

the story and uh, you know, talk about

42:49

it. It's it's a really fascinating

42:51

issue, I promise if you want to engage with

42:53

it. And uh and uh, you

42:55

know, and and and try to kind of move the needle,

42:58

um, because it's again so hard for us to

43:00

relate, you know, because because water is in such

43:02

abundance for us. Yeah. And as

43:04

we always say on purpose, it's like when we are

43:06

a part of the solution, the

43:09

view of the problem changes. Right when you see

43:11

these stories. And that's why I love what Gary

43:13

and Matt have done here. When you read these stories and you

43:15

hear these stories, and when you'll share the book with people

43:18

and you get to see that change does work,

43:20

that there are positive stories that

43:23

you know, we do live in a world that

43:25

has challenges and issues, but that five

43:28

dollars could make a difference to someone's daily

43:30

life and how they feel when they wake up in the

43:32

morning, and that makes a difference

43:35

like that has a ripple effect. And I think we need

43:37

to tell these stories more because

43:40

we can get caught up in the stories if we can't

43:42

do anything and we are helpless. But

43:44

Gary and Matt, I'm so grateful that you've given us a platform

43:47

through which we can all feel like we're having an

43:49

impact. Again, highly recommend

43:51

everyone grabbed the book. As you said, all proceeds

43:53

from the book go towards all

43:56

the amazing work. And I thank you

43:58

both for taking the time and give me or energy

44:00

and look forward to continuing to support you

44:02

guys. So thank you so much

44:04

for what you're doing. It's it's so powerful. Really

44:07

appreciate it. Thanks j take

44:09

care. Thank you so much. Everyone who's been listening

44:12

or watching, make sure you share this interview, pass

44:14

it along, tag us all on social

44:17

media, letting us know what's resonated with you,

44:19

what's connected with you. Share it.

44:21

When you order the book, tag me to let me know

44:23

you've ordered it. So that I can reshare that across

44:25

social media as well. And thank you all for

44:28

listening and watching. Thanks Matt, Thanks Gary,

44:30

thank you so much.