0:00

On the Media's Midweek podcast, I'm

0:02

Michael Oanger. Do you ever think

0:04

about switching insurance companies to see

0:07

if you could save some cash?

0:09

Progressive makes it easy to see

0:11

if you could save when you

0:13

bundle your home and auto policies.

0:16

Try it at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty

0:18

Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings

0:20

will vary, not available in all

0:22

states. This is on the Media's

0:25

Midweek podcast. I'm Michael Oanger. Back

0:27

in 2023, I traveled out to

0:29

Montana with Anna Sale, the host

0:31

of death-sex and money, to interview

0:33

Tasha Adams. She's the ex-wife of

0:36

Stuart Rhodes, the founder of the

0:38

oathkeepers, the far-right militia group. Stuart

0:40

was convicted of seditious conspiracy for

0:42

his role in the January 6th

0:45

insurrection. Prosecutors argued that members of

0:47

the oathkeepers used force to block

0:49

the results of the election. he

0:51

was sentenced to 18 years in

0:54

prison. Anna and I called Tasha

0:56

back just a few days before

0:58

Trump's inauguration. On the episode that

1:00

death sex and money called the

1:02

chest-clinching fear of my ex-husband's January

1:05

6th commutation, Tasha told us how

1:07

after Trump won, she felt totally

1:09

shut down. I just couldn't even

1:11

look at it. Got up in

1:14

the morning. took one glance at

1:16

the results before I got up

1:18

and left for work, saw what

1:20

happened, and didn't even think about

1:23

it again. And I just, I

1:25

must have had hundreds of messages

1:27

and media reaching out. And, you

1:29

know, and I did a couple

1:31

interviews, but I just didn't have

1:34

the heart for it. I don't

1:36

know how else to describe it.

1:38

You know, I felt so on

1:40

fire to do as many interviews

1:43

as I could possibly do leading

1:45

up to Stewart's arrest and conviction,

1:47

you know, just to... get that

1:49

message out, you know, desperately. Like

1:52

I needed to keep the spotlight

1:54

on Stewart and I needed people

1:56

to understand how serious it was

1:58

for him to be convicted. But

2:00

after this election, you know, I

2:03

just, I just felt like I

2:05

just couldn't move. I mean, it

2:07

was just really hard to even

2:09

function. You know, I never really

2:12

seriously believed Stewart would get out.

2:14

You know, I was afraid of

2:16

it and it loomed, but I

2:18

didn't really in my gut think

2:21

that that would happen. And now

2:23

I get hit with chest clinching

2:25

fear, then I think it's extremely

2:27

likely to happen. You'll

2:29

hear more of that conversation

2:32

at the end of this

2:34

episode. Just five days after

2:36

our conversation with Tasha, Trump

2:38

did commute Stewart's sentence. He's

2:40

now out of prison. Tasha

2:42

wasn't ready to speak about

2:44

that. When she told us

2:47

her story less than two

2:49

years ago, she talked about

2:51

how empowered she felt to

2:53

share what she had gone

2:55

through in her marriage, believing

2:57

it would matter to public

2:59

opinion, to the criminal justice

3:02

system. And so that's why

3:04

we're sharing parts of her

3:06

stories again. We think it's

3:08

important to hear. People died

3:10

that day and I, you

3:12

know, the first words out

3:14

of my mouth were, I

3:17

helped start this. I helped

3:19

start this. It turned into

3:21

that and people died that

3:23

day. And would this have

3:25

happened had I not supported

3:27

Stewart? The show

3:30

from Slate about the things we

3:32

think about a lot and need

3:34

to talk about more. I'm Anna

3:36

Sale. And I'm Michael Lowinger from

3:39

On the Media. Michael Lowinger, co-host

3:41

of On the Media from W&YC,

3:43

has long reported on the internal

3:46

chatter of right-wing groups. It's how

3:48

we first got connected with Tasha

3:50

Adams. the now ex-wife of oathkeeper's

3:52

founder, Stuart Rowe. Mikea introduced me

3:55

to Tasha and two years ago

3:57

he and I traveled to Northwest

3:59

Montana not far from the Canadian

4:02

border to interview her in person.

4:04

It's beautiful. Beautiful and kind of

4:06

scary because the roads are very

4:08

icy. Yeah. We met Tasha in

4:11

the small town where Stewart Roads

4:13

moved their family in 2010. We

4:15

talked for hours in a conference

4:18

room at a conference room at

4:20

a It had been hard to

4:22

find a place to record. Tasha's

4:24

landlord didn't want reporters coming by

4:27

her place. Another business, we call,

4:29

didn't want to get mixed up

4:31

in any coverage of the oathkeepers.

4:34

It made me wonder how isolated

4:36

Tasha felt. At the time, she

4:38

worked in a coffee shop and

4:40

kept a low profile in town.

4:43

It was anathema to her husband's

4:45

big persona. Maybe you've seen him

4:47

on TV with his black leather

4:50

eye patch. He liked the spotlight

4:52

to be in charge. It was

4:54

a quality that attracted thousands of

4:56

followers to his group. When we

4:59

talked to Tasha back then, it

5:01

was a few months before a

5:03

judge would determine how long Stuart

5:06

Rhodes would go to prison for.

5:08

He'd already been convicted of seditious

5:10

conspiracy. That was a trial that

5:12

Tasha had followed closely. Yeah, I

5:15

listened to all the pretrial hearings

5:17

I listened to. All of that.

5:19

Anything I could listen to. I

5:22

listened to. Why? I just, yeah,

5:24

I don't know. I just was

5:26

pretty obsessed with the whole thing.

5:28

I just, um, just needed to,

5:31

also the idea of seeing Stuart

5:33

face consequences, um, so huge for

5:35

me. And then, it's like, sort

5:38

of a process of Stuart's about

5:40

to face consequences. Okay. he needs

5:42

to face consequences and then I

5:44

kind of take it deep breath

5:47

and sit with it and just

5:49

let myself get hit with the

5:51

fear that I can't stop because

5:54

there's nothing I can do with

5:56

this internal voice that says if

5:58

something bad happens to Stewart something

6:00

that happens to me. Tasha was

6:03

22 when she married Stewart. She

6:05

was just 18 when they started

6:07

dating. She was teaching ballroom dancing

6:10

in Las Vegas where she'd grown

6:12

up in a tight-knit Mormon family.

6:14

I really wanted to do everything.

6:16

I had a really busy schedule.

6:19

I was taking tons of other

6:21

dance classes in addition to the

6:23

ballroom. I was always running to

6:26

auditions. I wanted to be a

6:28

journalist and I just wanted to

6:30

do everything. And before she met

6:32

Stewart, Tasha had found dating, kind

6:35

of boring. I had gone on

6:37

a date earlier. Mormon boy, arm

6:39

around the shoulders during the yawn

6:42

at the movies, you know, no

6:44

kissing on the first date. Okay,

6:46

that's fine. And, but it just

6:48

wasn't, it wasn't the, it wasn't

6:51

the adventure I was looking for.

6:53

Then came Stewart, he was 25,

6:55

an artist who'd grown up in

6:58

this big multicultural family with Filipino

7:00

and Mexican relatives. He caught her

7:02

eye because he was a single

7:04

guy in a dancing class at

7:07

the studio where she worked. And

7:09

Stewart was so assertive and he

7:11

just seemed so worldlyly, you know,

7:14

and he lived everywhere and he'd

7:16

been in the military and, you

7:18

know, he brought me pictures of,

7:20

you know, the times he'd gone

7:23

hang gliding and while he was

7:25

in the military and, but he

7:27

was very, you know, we went

7:30

on a few dates. There was

7:32

a bit of a culture clash

7:34

because he was just so assertive

7:36

and you know our first date

7:39

was planned for a weekend but

7:41

instead of waiting for the weekend

7:43

he actually called me the next

7:46

night first time he ever called

7:48

me was at 1030 at night

7:50

my family's home you know back

7:52

in the days of home phones,

7:55

right? So the whole house is

7:57

waking up, who's the heck is

7:59

calling the house? I've done 30

8:02

at night, you know, and he

8:04

said, let's go out to dinner.

8:06

Well, this is Las Vegas, so

8:08

you can do that. You know,

8:11

he picked me up at 1130

8:13

at night and we had dinner

8:15

at midnight and it seemed odd

8:17

and it made me a little

8:20

uncomfortable, but at the same time

8:22

I sort of gave myself a

8:24

talking to over being uncomfortable over

8:26

being a little late. And then

8:29

how quickly did you

8:31

all become serious? Pretty

8:33

quickly. I mean, I was

8:35

pretty much staying over there

8:38

within, to me, it was

8:40

quick, within three months or

8:42

so, which was a huge,

8:44

obviously, this is a huge

8:46

no-no in my life and

8:49

in my family, my culture.

8:51

But really, around that same

8:53

time, three months in... His

8:57

possessiveness, his possessiveness

8:59

not so much over the kind

9:01

of things I read about that

9:03

at the time were seen as

9:06

red flags in relationships like jealousy

9:08

of who you're looking at him.

9:10

It wasn't like that. It was

9:12

more possessiveness of my personal time.

9:15

He wanted my time. on all

9:17

of it. And he seemed very

9:19

jealous of me going to school.

9:21

He seemed jealous of the dance

9:24

classes I was taking. He was

9:26

jealous of my friends. He was,

9:28

he wanted that time for himself.

9:31

And even at that point, I

9:33

started to think, I don't

9:35

know, you know, maybe this isn't for

9:37

me, which, you know, at that

9:39

point, it's turned into a

9:41

sexual relationship and stepping away

9:43

from it at that point is a

9:46

big risk for me. You know, because

9:48

I'm now downgraded in this

9:50

world that I grew up in. You

9:52

know, I'm not going to be anyone's

9:54

dream girl, right, at this point, you

9:56

know, if I stay inside, you know,

9:58

Mormon culture, at least. that's how

10:00

I viewed it. But I was

10:02

really on the fence and I

10:05

was really thinking, maybe I need

10:07

to break this off. And I

10:09

was really actually pulled into a

10:11

parking lot and was just molling

10:13

it over, just sitting there thinking,

10:15

which way do I drive? Do

10:17

I drive back to my mom's

10:20

house and just go home or

10:22

drive drive to Stewart's place where

10:24

I'm supposed to go? And I

10:26

was really kind of back and

10:28

forth. I went up going to

10:30

this place, but I was still,

10:32

you know, you know, terrible. There's

10:35

been a terrible accident and he's

10:37

accidentally shot himself in the eye.

10:39

And this completely changed everything in

10:41

my relationship. I mean, if I

10:43

had just been a few years

10:45

older, if I had been maybe

10:47

25, I probably would have been

10:50

like, wow, that's that's really unfortunate

10:52

timing. that I was about to

10:54

break up with you and you've

10:56

had a devastating accident. But at

10:58

18, I thought, well now, now

11:00

what am I going to do?

11:02

Now I'm trapped. I have to

11:05

take care of him. Yeah. And

11:07

it changed the dynamic completely. I

11:09

was taking care of him. I

11:11

was cleaning out his MDI socket.

11:13

I was just like being pulled

11:15

out in a tidal wave. And

11:17

also kind of ironic because a

11:20

lot of the militia guys preached

11:22

this like gun safety thing and

11:24

how they're like well trained and

11:26

they don't slip up and you

11:28

know. It really struck me a

11:30

lot. This is jumping forward just

11:33

briefly, but during our divorce hearing,

11:35

it came up where he talked

11:37

about how safe he was at

11:39

handling weapons. And honestly, I had

11:41

been so conditioned for so many

11:43

years to never bring it up.

11:45

I just. I thought to myself,

11:48

wow, too bad I can't bring

11:50

up the fact that you show

11:52

himself in the face. And I

11:54

don't know why. It just was

11:56

so conditioned to not bring that

11:58

up that I just didn't. And

12:00

I just let him sit there,

12:03

you know, with an eye patch

12:05

on and tell the judge how

12:07

safe he is with firearms. I

12:09

just didn't say it. conditioned because

12:11

if you ever brought it up

12:13

during the course of your marriage

12:15

it's so humiliating and embarrassing to

12:18

him that would be dangerous. Yeah

12:20

he would shut it down and

12:22

so you just couldn't even hint

12:24

at it or just you almost

12:26

didn't even talk about that he

12:28

was missing an eye you know.

12:30

Wow okay so he has this

12:33

terrible accident and it also has

12:35

this hugely consequential... a huge consequence

12:37

for your life and your ability

12:39

to feel like this is a

12:41

relationship you could end after three

12:43

months. Yeah, yeah. And when you

12:45

married, had that period of doubting

12:48

changed into something else? Yes, it

12:50

changed into, I have to fix

12:52

this. Fixed what? I fixed him.

12:54

He said, you know, during his

12:56

recovery, he was... became more open

12:58

about the kind of abusey experience

13:00

as a kid, that his mom

13:03

had not been mentally stable, that

13:05

there was a lot of physical

13:07

abuse, and I felt so bad,

13:09

and I felt so guilty for

13:11

my own upbringing. You know, I'd

13:13

had this board game family life,

13:16

you know? I mean, I had

13:18

this great life. Whenever there was

13:20

something I didn't like about his

13:22

behavior, he would remind me of

13:24

this horrible childhood he'd had and

13:26

how difficult he'd had it. and

13:28

you know not everyone has this

13:31

perfect life and he was you

13:33

know very intelligent and he was

13:35

very good at manipulating me honestly

13:37

and he was very quick to

13:39

pick up on the fact that

13:41

I was a real hot button

13:43

and sort of trigger for me

13:46

was any implication any anyone implying

13:48

that I might be Entitled or

13:50

selfish or kind of a spoiled

13:52

brat that always bothered me and

13:54

and he just knew all he

13:56

ever had to do was just

13:58

push it You said a number

14:01

of times that you thought that

14:03

he was very intelligent What are

14:05

some ways that that? You picked

14:07

up on that. How did he

14:09

express his intelligence? He was very

14:11

well read, and so was I.

14:13

But he had read, you know,

14:16

for example, he read the Rise

14:18

and Fall, the Roman Empire at

14:20

13, and he was always reading

14:22

something. He was very good at

14:24

absorbing things he had read. For

14:26

me, I'm not like that. You

14:28

know, I'll read something, but I'll

14:31

remember the summary of it. He

14:33

almost doesn't even use the quicker,

14:35

more summary way of taking information.

14:37

He's very heavily focused on the

14:39

mental, on the deeper mental process.

14:41

Now, after many years, I've come

14:44

to believe maybe it's, it might

14:46

be somewhat common in narcissists or

14:48

sociopaths to be like that, because

14:50

everything about himself is a deep

14:52

mimic. of other people and the

14:54

people around him, and he's very

14:56

good at memory work. And so

14:59

I think some of that might

15:01

have been part of his need

15:03

to constantly memorize the things around

15:05

him as a way of coping

15:07

and mimicking how other people act.

15:09

Soon after they got married, Stewart

15:11

enrolled at University of Nevada, Las

15:14

Vegas. Tasha never got to finish

15:16

college. Stewart urged her to quit

15:18

her job teaching ballroom dancing and

15:20

become a stripper to bring in

15:22

more money. She says Stewart made

15:24

her turn over her earnings to

15:26

him at the end of her

15:29

shift. But they agreed it was

15:31

temporary to get him through school,

15:33

which became a joint family project.

15:35

He graduated summa cum laude because

15:37

he took two honors classes. One

15:39

is it. history of Spain and

15:41

one was the history of France

15:44

and he had to write these

15:46

papers and so he did write

15:48

the the main paper to get

15:50

his sumicum laude status but these

15:52

two honors classes were extra classes

15:54

and he just explained to me

15:56

you know I'm doing all this

15:59

work and he had these papers

16:01

due. And if he doesn't get

16:03

these papers finished in time, then

16:05

he's not going to graduate Summa

16:07

clamade and all these things we've

16:09

worked so hard for aren't going

16:12

to happen. So I just wound

16:14

up doing all his work for

16:16

his honors classes. You did his

16:18

homework. Wow. Did his papers for

16:20

him. So that he could graduate

16:22

with that. And while you're doing

16:24

the job at the club. Stripping.

16:27

Yeah. When Tasha, it

16:29

was 25, they had their first

16:31

son, Dakota. She says she stopped

16:33

stripping when her pregnancy started to

16:35

show. My agreement with him back

16:37

when I first started stripping was,

16:39

I will do this, but once

16:41

we start having kids, then it

16:43

put you through school and basically

16:45

making it so all you have

16:47

to do is wake up and

16:49

walk out the door. That's it.

16:51

You know, it clothes are laid

16:53

out. You know, foods that everything

16:55

is there. And then also not

16:57

doing any parenting either, you know,

16:59

so he's doing nothing. He's doing

17:01

nothing but school. In exchange, I

17:03

want, this seems so silly, but

17:06

I was very emotional about this

17:08

at the time, I want a

17:10

house, I want my own house,

17:12

and I want a damn tree

17:14

house before Dakota's too old to

17:16

want to play in it. And

17:18

that's the agreement. So by the

17:20

time he's about eight years old.

17:22

I want a little house. It

17:24

doesn't have to be fancy, just

17:26

a regular house with a yard,

17:28

and that's when I went out

17:30

of the steel. That never happened.

17:32

Instead, they moved around a lot.

17:34

Tasha had their second child in

17:36

1998, and their third in 2002,

17:38

while Stewart was enrolled at Yale

17:40

Law School. Stewart's world was expanding,

17:42

and hers was shrinking. You know,

17:44

I think the last time I

17:46

ever went to a doctor was

17:48

when I was 19, I didn't

17:51

go again until I was 50.

17:53

And when you were having babies,

17:55

were you, what kind of health

17:57

insurance did you have? Oh, no,

17:59

I never, never had any health

18:01

insurance. Would you go into hospitals

18:03

to have the babies? They were

18:05

all homebirds? Did you have help?

18:07

Generally. I had a midwife friend

18:09

who would help. After Yale, Stewart

18:11

got good jobs, like a prestigious

18:13

gig clerking for a judge in

18:15

Arizona. But nothing lasted. Tasha says

18:17

he would come up with a

18:19

reason for why they suddenly had

18:21

to leave town. Y2K was coming

18:23

and they needed to prepare or

18:25

he suddenly craved a fresh start.

18:27

Tasha told us she now looks

18:29

at these stories differently. that maybe

18:31

there were other reasons they had

18:33

to get up and move so

18:36

quickly. You know, half my life,

18:38

I swear out my life was

18:40

playing detective. So sometimes I'm able

18:42

to solve the mysteries, especially, especially

18:44

now with his name being so

18:46

public, it's easier for me to

18:48

find people and get responses from

18:50

them and they remember who, you

18:52

know, they've been paying attention. Yeah.

18:54

Your personal past. I mean, there

18:56

are just things I had no

18:58

idea about. I had no idea

19:00

there was an argument between him

19:02

and the judge. I had no

19:04

idea it was fired. Just that

19:06

we're all, we're moving. Okay. Here

19:08

we go again. It sounds like

19:10

he had a really hard time

19:12

working for people and with people.

19:14

Was the oathkeepers a kind of

19:16

way for him to be? the

19:18

leader to have the autonomy that

19:21

he wasn't finding in his life

19:23

up until that point. Honestly, in

19:25

some ways, that's what I was

19:27

hoping for when he said he

19:29

wanted to start in org is

19:31

I thought, wow, then he could

19:33

just talk for a living, right?

19:35

And then he can't get fired.

19:37

And maybe we can pay the

19:39

rent, because another thing is, when

19:41

you live like that, I mean,

19:43

at this point, there's no doubt,

19:45

he's abusive, you know. He's physically

19:47

abusive, he's emotionally abusive. And I

19:49

still think I can fix him,

19:51

you know. Again, back to his

19:53

intelligence and his gift from manipulating,

19:55

is he seemed to be pretty

19:57

aware. Looking back, it seemed he

19:59

was very aware. that I wanted

20:01

to fix him. And so he

20:03

would constantly say things like, I feel

20:06

so much better about myself and

20:08

about our relationship and our family

20:10

when I'm on my path. And

20:12

I don't know what my path

20:14

is, but when I'm on it,

20:16

when I'm, I don't know where

20:18

this path ultimately leads,

20:21

but when I'm headed in the

20:23

right direction, when I'm doing what

20:25

I'm supposed to be doing, then.

20:27

I'm not getting as angry. Yeah, this,

20:30

if I started non-profit, if I

20:32

focus on this group that's, that's

20:34

just focused on, you know, the

20:36

Constitution, these things that I love,

20:38

then I'm on it and I'm

20:40

in the zone and I'm not

20:42

being drug down by this, the lesser me,

20:44

you know, I'm who I should be, you know,

20:46

which is a good person. I want to

20:48

just ask a few questions you've

20:51

used the word abuse a few times

20:53

and you just guide us on what...

20:55

feels okay to talk about. But when

20:57

you say he was physically abusive, how, when

21:00

did that start in your relationship?

21:02

You know, it's funny, if you

21:04

were to ask me, and in

21:06

fact, I was asked four years

21:08

ago, three years ago, was Stewart physically

21:10

abusive, did he or hit you, I

21:13

would have said no and did say

21:15

no, many times. But at the same

21:17

time, I was physically afraid he was

21:19

going to kill us all, was

21:21

afraid of being shot. afraid

21:24

of being choked, afraid of

21:26

him grabbing the kids, hitting

21:28

the kids, afraid for

21:30

our lives for sure. So he

21:33

would never outright punch

21:35

you, but he would do other

21:37

things to hurt you, you

21:39

know, because he always

21:41

wanted deniability. He always

21:43

saw himself as a

21:45

great man and being

21:47

undeniably abusive

21:50

didn't fit into that

21:52

he would break out

21:54

of that sometimes. But he

21:56

would always, most

21:58

commonly he would want to

22:00

do martial arts with you. And

22:03

then you would just get beat

22:05

to shit, really, you know, with

22:07

sticks or whatever, you know, just,

22:09

oh, sorry about that, oh, sorry

22:11

about that. But how often and

22:13

how hard you got hurt correlated

22:15

directly to how upset he was

22:17

with you over something. He was

22:19

more abusive to the kids than

22:22

I realized until later on, and

22:24

we've been talking about it more.

22:26

There was a lot of things

22:28

I did not know. And there's

22:30

a lot of things I didn't,

22:32

I think I probably just didn't

22:34

want to know and I also

22:36

have a lot of, have a

22:38

lot of blank spaces in my

22:40

memory. It's just missing time that

22:43

I think maybe I'm just not

22:45

ready to deal with yet. You

22:47

know, I can remember screaming and

22:49

running from him. I remember my

22:51

dad who was really old and

22:53

had bad knees coming to the

22:55

back door because we lived in

22:57

sort of a little apartment in

22:59

the back of my mom's house

23:01

asking me if I was okay.

23:04

I have no memory of why

23:06

I ran. I have no memory

23:08

of why I was afraid. When

23:10

we were first producing this episode

23:12

in 2023, we sent a detailed

23:14

list of questions about topics we

23:16

discussed with Tasha in this episode

23:18

to Stewart through his lawyer, including

23:20

Tasha's allegations of abuse by Stewart.

23:22

They declined to comment on anything.

23:25

Coming up in 2009, Stuart starts

23:27

the oathkeepers. He would definitely would

23:29

target people who had issues, PTSD

23:31

issues, a lot of people had

23:33

drug addictions. They tended to do

23:35

a lot of MMA, they did

23:37

a lot of shooting, but they

23:39

were all people who viewed themselves

23:41

as the great family man, the

23:43

great protector. As

23:53

I said at the top of

23:55

the show, we are in a

23:58

period where policies, norms, and stated

24:00

goals at the federal level are

24:02

changing at a breakneck pace. If

24:04

you are someone who thinks something

24:06

about your life has been or

24:08

could be affected, we want to

24:10

hear about it. Record a voice

24:13

memo and send it to us

24:15

at Death Sex Money at slate.com.

24:17

Now I covered politics before I

24:19

started Death Sex and Money and

24:21

learned long ago that there is

24:23

a gap between what you read

24:26

in the news about what politicians

24:28

say they want to do and

24:30

what actually ends up happening. And

24:32

even figuring out what is actually

24:34

happening can be an enormous reporting

24:36

project, particularly when it's about federal

24:38

policy and how it ultimately ends

24:41

up working on the ground in

24:43

local communities. That's why a book

24:45

that just came out about a

24:47

green energy development in Montana and

24:49

what happened to block it caught

24:51

my attention. A rancher wanted to

24:54

put up some wind turbines on

24:56

his property to make some more

24:58

cash because the cattle business was

25:00

so tough he wasn't sure he

25:02

was going to be able to

25:04

hang on to his family land.

25:06

But his neighbors objected and sued,

25:09

and those neighbors happened to be

25:11

millionaires and billionaires who had bought

25:13

surrounding land to be sort of

25:15

a mountain refuge, trophy ranches, as

25:17

they're called. The book is called

25:19

The Crazies, The Cattlemen, The Wind

25:22

Prospector, and A War Out West

25:24

by Amy Gamerman. And she does

25:26

a remarkable job telling this story,

25:28

including how this latest fight is

25:30

all happening on land, long held

25:32

sacred by crow people. Though the

25:34

American West is not a place

25:37

that she is from. Yeah, what

25:39

is this nice Jewish girl from

25:41

New York doing in the caving

25:43

barn? Like trotting around the cow

25:45

patties in the pasture. I liked

25:47

Amy's books so much when I

25:50

read an early copy that I

25:52

asked if I could marry the

25:54

audiobook. And they said yes. And

25:56

in our Slate Plus feed this

25:58

week, you can hear an excerpt

26:00

of that audiobook and more from

26:03

Amy about how this story. about

26:05

money, green energy goals, and local

26:07

realities played out in this lawsuit

26:09

between neighbors. This is about the

26:11

end of community. If you are

26:13

not already a member of Slate

26:15

Plus, get on it. It's easy

26:18

to get these special drops that

26:20

we make for you. You can

26:22

sign up on Apple Podcast or

26:24

Spotify on the Death Sex and

26:26

Money Show page or go to

26:28

slate.com/DSM Plus. And remember, Slate Plus

26:31

members also get ad-free listening to

26:33

all Slate podcasts. I'm Michael Loneger.

26:35

And I'm Anna Sale. Can I

26:37

ask you just a really basic

26:39

question? What was the oath? So,

26:41

oathkeepers is, the oath is based

26:43

on the idea that everybody in

26:46

the military, even post office workers,

26:48

even lawyers, even lawyers, even lawyers,

26:50

police officers, have all had to

26:52

swear an oath by law, have

26:54

to swear no to the constitution

26:56

before they can go into office.

26:59

And so the idea is that

27:01

sometimes these guys swear an oath

27:03

to protect and defend the Constitution

27:05

and they're not doing it. And

27:07

it's a pretty easy sales pitch,

27:09

you know, right out of the

27:11

gate, right? Especially timing-wise, we're talking

27:14

about the end of the Ron

27:16

Paul movement, not too far off

27:18

in time from the Occupy movement.

27:20

And so his original pitch, which

27:22

is how he pitched it to

27:24

me. was very much this idea

27:27

of what if police in particular

27:29

had a support group fellow officers

27:31

who they could go to if

27:33

they saw corruption that they could

27:35

say hey you know, things are

27:37

going crazy in my department. They're

27:40

not acting right, and I don't

27:42

know what to do. And they

27:44

would offer legal counsel and, you

27:46

know, just back up. Like, just

27:48

like imagining, when you said when

27:50

he pitched it to me, I'm

27:52

picturing, like, I have this idea.

27:55

Like, it starts. Like, do you

27:57

think you were the first person

27:59

he talked to about it? So,

28:01

um. We were at a Ron

28:03

Paul event. It's when he was

28:05

doing some legal work for the

28:08

Ron Paul campaign 2008 I guess

28:10

it was We were in prompt

28:12

Nevada and he went outside to

28:14

talk with some veterans and I'm

28:16

you know by then I have

28:18

a million kids. So I'm just

28:20

entertaining kids. That's all I'm doing

28:23

at these things and He comes

28:25

back in with a notebook with

28:27

some names written down And he

28:29

said, there's a kid out there,

28:31

return veteran from Afghanistan, and he

28:33

had some ideas for names. And

28:36

there's a whole list of names.

28:38

And one of the names on

28:40

it was oathkeepers. And I said,

28:42

well, just stop right there. That's

28:44

the name. That is the name.

28:46

No other. It doesn't really matter.

28:48

So that is so marketable. It's

28:51

just a good name. You know,

28:53

you said that you're playing with

28:55

the kids at this event, and

28:57

then you're like, that's it. That's

28:59

the name. That's the name. That's

29:01

the name. That's marketable. I said,

29:04

that's marketable. I said, that's marketable.

29:06

It could be a marketable. It

29:08

could be a marketable. It could

29:10

be a cigar. It could be

29:12

a cigar. It could be a

29:14

cigar club. It could be a

29:17

cigar club. It could be a

29:19

motorcycle club. I could see it

29:21

on jackets. You can sell t-shirts.

29:23

People are going to love it.

29:25

In the first couple years of

29:27

the oathkeepers, Tasha helped out a

29:29

lot. She was selling t-shirts. She

29:32

was answering emails and posting on

29:34

the blog. She really wanted them

29:36

to succeed. Maybe she was naive.

29:38

But Tasha says she understood the

29:40

oathkeepers as the opposite of what

29:42

it would become, that this was

29:45

a group who would root out

29:47

corruption, racism, demagoguery, and the military,

29:49

police departments, and so on. Tasha

29:51

didn't think any of the political

29:53

organizing was dangerous. But others saw

29:55

it for what it was, especially

29:57

as Stewart's profile. Tasha remembers an

30:00

early interview when Stewart was invited

30:02

on MS NBC in 2009 to

30:04

be a guest on hardball with

30:06

Chris Matthews. And Chris Matthews said,

30:08

I think you want a war.

30:10

So you're putting people together on

30:13

a kind of a war footing,

30:15

preparing them to be vigilant, to

30:17

be ready to be ready to

30:19

challenge the imposition of foreign troops

30:21

in this country, to create some

30:23

concentrate. You know what I think

30:25

you're up to? It's creating a

30:28

mindset. I heard some people the

30:30

other day talking about the battle.

30:32

We have to keep the battle

30:34

going. You want to have people

30:36

in a militant environment where they

30:38

think militantly with this sense of

30:41

perhaps taking steps at some point

30:43

against the government or taking, not

30:45

taking orders. some way rebelling. I

30:47

don't think Stewart's ever been called

30:49

out so accurately. So early. Yeah,

30:51

so early. And did you as

30:53

like his wife at the time

30:56

who also feels, I don't know

30:58

what your mix of feelings were

31:00

about him at that time, were

31:02

you, was it like satisfying to

31:04

watch him? Was it, were you

31:06

feeling, did you feel protective of

31:09

him? Like what? I felt angry.

31:11

A part of me was like,

31:13

am I mad? Because there's some

31:15

truth to this. I was afraid

31:17

there might be truth to it.

31:19

And they really, really didn't want

31:22

there to be truth to it.

31:24

And it made me even more

31:26

sort of focused and determined, like,

31:28

I've really got to hover over

31:30

this thing and keep it on

31:32

this path. And but I had

31:34

a lot of fear myself at

31:37

that time. Like, oh, man, because

31:39

I, you know. You know, I

31:41

know what steward is underneath, you

31:43

know, and I keep thinking that

31:45

deep down at his core is

31:47

a good person. But then there

31:50

were a couple things that happened

31:52

in our personal life around that

31:54

time, 2010, and then 2012, that...

31:56

I just sort of stepped away.

31:58

from all of it and I

32:00

and I my whole facade fell

32:02

apart and you know my life

32:05

his life is all politics and

32:07

what he's doing in my life

32:09

was all babies you know at

32:11

that time I had a miscarriage

32:13

and you know again not going

32:15

to doctors just going into

32:17

midwives and stuff and you

32:20

know he pulled this stunt

32:22

where he basically orchestrated a

32:24

board of directors call during

32:26

my midwife appointment to see

32:29

if I was losing the baby or not.

32:31

And it turned out I was, and he

32:33

used the baby, me losing the baby

32:35

as sort of a tool, and the

32:37

board of directors not voting him

32:39

into a forced hiatus because

32:41

he was sort of acting

32:44

unhinged even around them. And, you

32:46

know, he put his phone on speaker

32:48

while we're finding out that we're losing

32:50

the baby. And oh, look, I was lost.

32:52

It was like me and like

32:54

10 guys in the basically on

32:56

speakerphone while I'm learning that might

32:58

be and I had a pretty

33:01

serious physical reaction to to that

33:03

miscarriage. I almost died and he

33:05

just left me bleeding out on the

33:07

floor you know and just walked away

33:09

and made the kids you know help

33:12

me to walk again and and it

33:14

was in It was a real

33:16

shake-up moment because I always told

33:18

myself that deep down on the

33:20

surface, Stuart is a kind-loving person

33:22

with this gruff exterior. And when

33:24

it really, really counted and I

33:27

really needed it, this kind person would

33:29

show itself. And then when I really

33:31

needed it, he's just irritated that

33:33

I'm, you know, staying in the carpet

33:35

with blood. And then again, two years

33:37

later, I had a full-term little girl

33:40

who didn't live. And it was the

33:42

same thing again. He didn't care and

33:44

It is that was that was a

33:46

very very ending of Of

33:48

thinking that he had any type

33:51

of emotion whatsoever toward

33:53

other people and it changed

33:55

the story for you about

33:58

what your obligation was It

34:00

changed everything. It was sort of

34:02

a whole other morning process

34:04

because I realized, I mean I

34:07

lost my husband because I really,

34:09

because the person I thought was

34:11

my husband never actually existed.

34:13

Everything I thought he was,

34:16

was entirely made up, really.

34:18

You know, his actions certainly never

34:20

backed that up. I just

34:22

believed beyond reason that there

34:24

was a true loving kind

34:26

person under the surface under

34:29

the surface of this this

34:31

extreme damage and abuse and

34:33

all the things he suffered.

34:35

But there really was no

34:37

one under there, I know.

34:39

So that was that was

34:41

hard. That was a hard

34:43

process. Coming up, Tasha leaves

34:46

Stewart and watches the

34:48

oathkeepers on TV on

34:51

January 6th, storming the

34:53

capital. Tasha

35:04

started seriously thinking about leaving

35:06

Stewart in 2016. By that

35:08

point, they had six kids, all

35:11

of whom she was homeschooling. Some

35:13

of the younger children didn't even

35:15

have social security numbers or birth

35:17

certificates. Stewart, she says, kept at

35:20

least 20 guns in the house.

35:22

To him, the apocalypse seemed to

35:24

be just around the corner. And

35:27

at the children's urging, Tasha began

35:29

secretly saving money. The older kids

35:31

helped out where they could. And

35:33

two years later, they managed to

35:36

escape and find a lawyer to

35:38

help with divorce proceedings.

35:41

By that time, Trump was

35:43

president, and Stewart's beliefs,

35:45

once confined to the

35:47

fringes, were starting to gain

35:50

more mainstream credibility.

35:52

Can I ask about January 6th?

35:54

Yep. And what were you

35:57

doing? January 6th, glued to

35:59

my laptop. On January 6th,

36:01

2021, she was watching the attack

36:03

on the Capitol from home, like

36:05

the rest of us. The oathkeepers,

36:08

a far-right paramilitary group, are also

36:10

here. They're organized, staging their military-style

36:12

equipment neatly on the ground. And

36:15

later, they put on body armor,

36:17

talk on radios, and chat with

36:19

their supporters on a walkie-talkie app

36:22

called Zello. Tasha noticed a line

36:24

of men and women wearing battle

36:26

rattle and oathkeeper patches moving through

36:29

the crowd. You know there's nobody

36:31

else you know that's not the

36:33

proud boys they don't run around

36:35

with you know full military gear

36:37

and helmets and and you know the

36:39

even just right down to the to the

36:41

types of radios and the I could do

36:44

that with stewards people. And then it, you

36:46

know, kind of even reverted to my own

36:48

programming where I thought, oh, maybe they went

36:50

off, you know, they went off mission. They

36:53

must have won't have mission. Stewart wouldn't want

36:55

them to do this, right? You know, but that

36:57

thought was like about a half a second long

36:59

where it's like, oh, what am I thinking?

37:01

That's, you know, the steward talk. And you're

37:03

just like taking this in on your phone

37:05

and on your laptop by yourself? Are

37:07

you talking to anybody talking to

37:10

anybody? Oh my God, this was all

37:12

Stewart. Maybe this was all Stewart. You

37:14

know, and then, you know, Dakota's got

37:16

his thing. What is happening? You

37:19

know, Dakota's gets off work and

37:21

comes in with his laptop. Do you

37:23

see this? Do you see it? Yeah. I

37:25

see it. And that's what we realize,

37:27

you know, the extent of it,

37:30

or at least everything that was

37:32

known at that point. And it

37:34

became sort of a reveal day

37:36

by day, like how instrumental Stewart

37:38

really was in this. When did

37:40

you start hearing from reporters?

37:43

So it definitely started

37:46

right after J6, started

37:48

talking with a lot more press

37:50

for sure, and it was kind

37:52

of slow. Like I was really guarded

37:55

about the kind of stuff

37:57

I would talk about initially.

38:00

And definitely, even

38:02

listening to my original

38:04

interviews, it's almost like

38:07

a really different perspective.

38:10

If you read the LA

38:12

Times article, it's really clear,

38:14

I'm telling this man, it's

38:16

all my fault, and he's just

38:19

writing down, it's all her

38:21

fault. Headline, it's all her

38:23

fault. What was all your fault?

38:25

All of it. Oathkeepers,

38:28

Stewart. Because you hadn't

38:30

prevented it. Yeah. You know,

38:32

people died that day. And I,

38:34

you know, the first words out of

38:36

my mouth were, I helped start this.

38:39

I helped start this. It

38:41

turned into that. And people

38:43

died that day. And would this

38:45

have happened had I not supported

38:48

Stewart? You know. I guess that's

38:50

impossible to trace. You could

38:52

say Stewart was going to become

38:55

a two-bit criminal without a

38:57

yellow degree. Maybe he would have

38:59

heard people in some other way, maybe

39:01

he would have been some other type

39:03

of criminal. Maybe he just

39:06

would have been somebody easily

39:08

recognizable as a dirtbag had

39:10

I not been back there, you know? Let's

39:12

fix you up. You know, through me, he

39:14

learned how to deceive people a

39:16

little better, I think, because he

39:19

learned how he was supposed to

39:21

be. In 2023, a federal jury

39:23

agreed that Stuart Rhodes was responsible

39:25

for his group's role on January

39:28

6th. He, along with five other

39:30

oathkeepers, were found guilty of sedition.

39:32

Stuart testified in his own defense

39:34

and said that the oathkeepers were

39:37

at the Capitol to provide security

39:39

to Trump supporters and that there

39:41

was no plan to storm it.

39:43

Tasha was actually asked to testify in

39:45

the trial, but she was never called,

39:47

and the thought of it had been

39:49

terrifying. I just didn't want to see him.

39:52

I mean that was the main thing. I didn't

39:54

want to walk past him. You know, there's no

39:56

way. He's going to leap up from that table

39:58

and strangle me before they can get to me.

40:00

That's all I could think. Really, that

40:02

was my main thing is there's no

40:04

way I'm going to get past

40:06

him. But yeah, I followed very

40:08

closely. I think the reason

40:11

I didn't wind up coming

40:13

in is because he did such

40:15

a terrible job in his own

40:17

when he testified. It was really

40:19

bad. It was really, really, really

40:22

bad. I wasn't sure how I

40:24

was going to go because he sees

40:26

himself as this showman and, you know,

40:28

get up there and talk. Let's, come

40:30

on, kids, let's wrap about this, you

40:32

know, let's all talk. Oh, yeah, let's

40:35

discuss it. He loves that kind of

40:37

stuff. You know, he's basically like a

40:39

1980s television guy. I mean, that's

40:41

how he grew up. That's

40:43

his whole family was public

40:45

speaking and multi-level marketing seminars

40:47

and, you know, and... The

40:50

problem with that sort of

40:52

faint honesty, let's just talk,

40:55

you know, is it looks like it

40:57

could be honest, but if

40:59

you're going to put that

41:02

up against reality, you can

41:04

see the difference and you

41:06

realize what a gifted liar

41:09

this person is. So that

41:11

was really fascinating to me

41:13

because I knew we were

41:15

going to see that, you

41:17

know, TV face Stewart. He's

41:19

always been able to pick and

41:21

choose his audience. So that was

41:23

really interesting to see him with

41:25

people who are not His choice

41:28

people, you know, he chooses the

41:30

people who are around them very

41:32

carefully He chooses who works for him

41:34

He's caught we were constantly moved every

41:36

year to change his audience, but

41:38

for the first time ever He's

41:40

seeing he's having to do his

41:43

thing in front of an audience

41:45

who just witnessed the real him

41:47

Tasha was watching so closely because she

41:49

also wanted to know how long Stewart

41:51

might be put away. I was really

41:53

nervous, but I really, on a

41:55

personal level, I really needed that

41:58

seditious conspiracy, my youngest kid. eight,

42:00

you know, I need him in there ten

42:02

more years, you know, and just on a

42:04

purely personal level, that that's what

42:06

I feel like I need. I need

42:09

him to stay locked away for the

42:11

next ten years, so my kids can

42:13

legally cut contact with him. And for

42:15

Tasha, the prospect of prison

42:17

time for Stewart made her feel

42:19

like a different person. Well, for

42:22

when I could sleep. And

42:24

it sounds silly, but I

42:26

was so sleep deprived. Just

42:29

being able to think, being

42:31

able to just interact

42:33

with my kids, have my

42:35

kids in school, enjoying the

42:38

world. Putting the kids in

42:40

school was huge. It changed

42:43

everything. I live in

42:45

this town, you know, and I

42:47

lived just barely outside of this

42:49

town before. I didn't even know

42:52

where the high school was. I

42:54

didn't know where anything in the

42:56

town was. I never came here,

42:58

you know, I never interacted with

43:01

people. And it just, and I'm

43:03

still, even though it's been so

43:05

long, it's just like uncovering,

43:08

uncovering every day, the layers.

43:20

I'm in my kids, my 10-year-old's

43:22

bedroom, so it's got that

43:24

closet look. It's cool. The

43:27

video, we're not going to

43:29

use. Yeah, and thank you for

43:31

painting a picture for listeners.

43:33

This is one of those

43:35

shots where you just know

43:38

if the camera pans is

43:40

disastrous all sides. When we

43:42

reconnected with Tasha

43:44

a few days before Trump's

43:46

inauguration in 2025. She was

43:48

warm, laughed a lot in

43:50

a familiar way, but things

43:52

felt fragile. She and her

43:55

children had just started to rebuild.

43:57

They were all in therapy. Her

43:59

old... As a son, Dakota ran

44:01

for office in the Montana legislature

44:03

as a Democrat, he lost to

44:06

But Tasha was proud of his

44:08

effort. Tasha's life, since we'd

44:10

talked, had become more private. She

44:12

said she left the coffee shop because

44:15

it was too public-facing, and

44:17

now works cleaning a medical

44:19

facility. It's long, hard, physical

44:21

work. And she doesn't have

44:23

a car. Her old one broke

44:25

down, and she didn't have money to

44:27

fix it. So she walks. She's had

44:29

a lot of time to wonder

44:32

what she would do if Stewart

44:34

got out of prison. We filled

44:36

out our passports and Canada

44:38

is right there. Maybe just

44:40

take a trip or maybe move to

44:43

a place with a judge that's a

44:45

little more, you know, with

44:47

different ideas than the Canada.

44:49

You mean like a local

44:51

judge where you live in

44:53

Montana? You're not sure you

44:56

would be protected? as the former

44:58

wife of somebody who's

45:01

described abuse. Is

45:03

that what you're saying?

45:05

Yes, that's what I'm saying,

45:07

yeah. So you were, you wouldn't

45:10

be safe if he were pardoned

45:12

and released from prison?

45:14

Well, I don't, I

45:16

don't know. I mean,

45:18

probably not safe now, to

45:21

be honest with you. I do

45:23

think there's, there's some,

45:25

you know, I'd like to think

45:27

he would try to stay

45:30

on the straight and narrow

45:32

for a little while at

45:34

least to then focus on

45:36

rebuilding. He's already rebuilding oathkeepers

45:39

right now. He's doing interviews,

45:41

he's writing a sub stack from

45:43

prison, you know, but I think

45:45

initially the worry is more about

45:48

him having access to his

45:50

people, more concerned about his,

45:52

some of his followers. You

45:54

know, trying to harm

45:57

us. How are you in the

45:59

kids? Like, how are your kids

46:01

and how's being a mom right now?

46:03

Like, what's it? How are you all

46:06

doing as a family? Life is

46:08

pretty normal, you know? But, you

46:10

know, everyone has CPTSD. It's

46:12

just, leave this mark. You know, the

46:15

older kids still deal with

46:17

it. The younger kids still deal

46:19

with it. And some do better

46:21

in some ways and, you know, some,

46:23

but you know what, they, they, you know,

46:25

my kids are really, something I'm

46:28

really happy about. and really

46:30

proud of them is that

46:32

they are so good at

46:34

supporting each other. They help each

46:36

other out. And yeah, and

46:38

especially because they have

46:40

different strengths and

46:42

they really do hold each other

46:44

up, they hold each other out with,

46:47

you know, oh, I gotta fill out

46:49

this job application. Someone who's good

46:51

at that shows that let's put

46:53

them all on the table. Let's

46:55

let's fill them out You know

46:57

or someone who's better at taxes.

46:59

What do I do? You know

47:01

somebody else will do that or you

47:03

know or You know even just little

47:06

things like holidays or being festive or

47:08

making decorations I mean they help each

47:10

other with all that kind of stuff

47:12

and part of that's me because I

47:15

always look one of these days I'm

47:17

gonna be dead. You guys got to talk

47:19

to each other And what about Dakota?

47:21

He ran for a state house,

47:23

right? Yeah. Can you tell us

47:25

about that? What was that like?

47:28

That was really fun. That was

47:30

really fun. I mean, you know, he

47:32

didn't expect to win.

47:34

And sometimes people on Twitter

47:37

were like, no or no,

47:39

that really wasn't, you know,

47:41

it's an 80% Republican district

47:43

that wasn't going to win. But

47:46

he really did. Reach a lot of

47:48

me did really well. I think I think

47:50

he got 20% or more which is you

47:52

know more than that was his goal

47:54

all along was 20% I think it

47:56

was pretty close to that And when

47:58

he was campaigning Did he

48:00

talk about what your family went through?

48:03

Was that that was part of

48:05

his pitch? He did. But mostly

48:07

it was to make people understand

48:09

that he understood that

48:11

viewpoint. It was more of like

48:14

I know where you're coming from

48:16

and he kind of kind of

48:18

played into a little bit of

48:20

that kind of populist mindset

48:22

or that individualist

48:25

individualist mindset or that

48:27

individualist And, you know, a

48:29

lot of people really liked him.

48:31

I mean, a lot of people who

48:33

always voted Republican, you know,

48:36

you know what, I'm going to vote for you.

48:38

You know, just because he went door

48:40

to door in a leather jacket. Tasha

48:42

and Dakota have kept in

48:44

touch with journalists through the

48:46

election campaign season and leading

48:48

up to Trump's inauguration. They

48:50

are both in a new

48:53

documentary that just came out. It's

48:55

called King of the Apocalypse. Wow.

48:57

You know, it's kind of a

48:59

joke among the kids, calling King

49:02

of the Apocalypse, you know, calling

49:04

Stuart that, and so it's... Oh,

49:06

that's a family nickname? Yeah. Kind

49:09

of a joke. It's mostly

49:11

starring Dakota, I think. You

49:13

know, it's about Stuart. Dakota's

49:15

kind of the hero, I

49:17

believe. That's

49:25

Tasha Adams. There's a link to the

49:27

trailer of King of the Apocalypse in

49:30

our show notes. And if you

49:32

want to send Tasha a note, email

49:34

us at Death Sex Money at

49:36

slate.com and we'll pass it on. Thank

49:38

you for working with us on this

49:41

mica. Yeah, thank you. This episode was

49:43

produced by me and a sale,

49:45

Micah Lowinger and Zoe Azulae. You

49:47

can hear Micah every week on

49:50

W&YC's On the Media, where he's

49:52

a co-host. Death, Sex, and Money

49:54

is produced by Slate. Please support

49:56

our team by becoming a member

49:58

of Slate Plus. You get ad-free

50:01

listening to our show, and special

50:03

Slate Plus only drops. Like my

50:05

conversation this week with Amy Gamerman

50:07

about her book on present-day Montana,

50:09

and a bit of my recording

50:11

of that audio book. Here's a

50:13

little tease. The excerpt ends with

50:16

me getting to say, let's start

50:18

this son of a bitch. You

50:20

can subscribe to Slate Plus directly

50:22

on the Death Sex and Money

50:24

Show page, on Apple Podcast, or

50:26

on Spotify, or go to slate.com/DSM

50:29

Plus to get access wherever you

50:31

listen. Our team also includes Andrew

50:33

Dunn and Cameron Drew's. Daisy Rosario

50:35

is our senior supervising producer at

50:37

Slate. Hillary Fry is Slate's editor-in-chief.

50:40

Our theme music is by the

50:42

Reverend John Delore and Steve Lewis.

50:44

If you are new to our

50:46

show, welcome. We're glad you're here.

50:48

You can find us and follow

50:51

us on Instagram at Death Sex

50:53

Money. And I write a weekly

50:55

newsletter. You can subscribe at annasail.com.

50:57

You can also reach us any

51:00

time with voice memos, pep talks,

51:02

questions, or critiques at our email

51:04

address, Death Sex Money at slate.com.

51:06

We love hearing from you. I'm Anna

51:08

Sale and this is Death Sex

51:11

and Money from Slate. Thanks

51:13

for listening to the Midweek

51:15

podcast on the big show this

51:17

weekend. We'll look at how

51:19

the Trump administration is attempting

51:21

to distort and erase American

51:23

history to serve their agenda

51:26

in the present. In the

51:28

meantime, you can follow on

51:30

the media on Blue Sky,

51:32

Instagram, TikTok, and our subreddit,

51:34

our slash on the media.

51:36

Thanks for listening. I'm Michael

51:38

Omenger. Since WNYC's first broadcast in

51:41

1924, we've been dedicated to creating

51:43

the kind of content we know

51:45

the world needs. Since then, New

51:47

York Public Radio's rigorous journalism has

51:49

gone on to win a

51:51

Peabody Award and a DuPont

51:54

Columbia Award, among others. In

51:56

addition to this award-winning reporting,

51:58

your sponsorship also supports inspire...

52:00

storytelling and extraordinary music that

52:02

is free and accessible

52:04

to all. To get in touch

52:07

and find out more visit sponsorship.wnyc.org