0:00

You know, it's okay for you to

0:02

swear on this podcast. I hope

0:04

you're not worried about that Thank

0:07

fucking God Hi

0:18

everyone from New York magazine in

0:20

the Vox Media Podcast Network. This

0:22

is on with Kara Swisher and

0:24

I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today

0:26

is Michelle Buto, the multi-hyphenate comedian,

0:28

writer, actor, and producer and one

0:30

of my favorites. Last year she

0:32

made history as the first female

0:34

comic to record a first female

0:36

comic to record a stand-up special

0:39

at Radio City Music Call, a

0:41

beautiful mind. Her second special for

0:43

Netflix and she starred in the

0:45

movie Babves with Alana Glazer Glazer.

0:47

comics right now are doing some of

0:49

the most truncheon analysis of what's happening

0:51

from a variety of different viewpoints, not

0:53

always things I agree with, but I'm

0:55

really enjoying how much comics are really

0:57

contributing to the conversation now, especially compared

0:59

to a lot of people, including our

1:01

politicians. The second season of her Netflix

1:03

series, Survival of the Thicest, came out

1:05

last week, the same day we talked.

1:07

The show is loosely based on Buto's

1:09

memoir, Personal Essays, which she published back

1:11

in 2020. It's about the size-inclusive stylists

1:13

who wants to change the fashion industry

1:15

and not just for big girls. And

1:17

she surrounds herself with friends, including friends in

1:20

the transgender committee that helped her do that.

1:22

I think it's a wonderful show. There's a

1:24

series of shows right now that have a

1:26

lot of... political elements that aren't so obvious,

1:29

but actually are about joy and friendship and

1:31

community. I think it's just what we need

1:33

around this time because they're not also not.

1:35

Silly and stupid, they're actually quite substantive. And

1:37

this is one of those shows, and it

1:40

does make you feel better because everything Michelle

1:42

does tends to do that. I want to

1:44

talk with Michelle about her decades-long career and

1:46

how she thinks about representation in our work,

1:49

the current political agenda that's set on dehumanizing

1:51

people, and what she's manifesting for the future.

1:53

By the way, if you want to see

1:55

someone I think is extremely funny and you're

1:58

in New York on Monday, April 7th. with

2:00

Kara Swisher with comedian Josh Johnson of

2:02

the Daily Show one of my favorites

2:04

and one of my son Louis favorites

2:07

absolutely. The event is at Cooper Union's

2:09

Great Hall and it's free but you

2:11

do have to get tickets search for

2:13

Cooper Union and Kara Swisher online to

2:16

register. Okay now let's get to Michelle

2:18

Buto our expert question today comes from

2:20

her babes co-star and good friend Ilana

2:22

Glazer. It's going to be fun and

2:25

thought-provoking so stick around. This

2:35

podcast is supported by Google.

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the product leads on Google

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required to send and receive money. Michelle

4:03

Beethow, welcome. Thanks for being on on.

4:05

I hear you were just in Australia

4:07

filming your next movie. I was there

4:09

too just recently. How was the trip?

4:11

The trip was long. I felt like

4:14

I was in a spaceship for a

4:16

whole day and I was in the

4:18

future and I didn't know who I

4:20

was and everyone kept telling me tomorrow.

4:22

We have this wonderful thing called avocado

4:25

toast. I'm like, yeah, I heard of

4:27

it. Where do you guys live? You

4:29

guys got to come up with another

4:31

joke. Yeah, they're novel convicts, by the

4:33

way. And they tell you they're not

4:35

the convict people. Yes, they're very particular

4:38

about. We're not the convict people. I'm

4:40

like, I feel like those are people

4:42

are dead, so I don't have a

4:44

judgment going on there. What were you

4:46

doing there? Talk a little bit about

4:49

the trip. It's beautiful. I was filming

4:51

a movie called Spa Weekend and Anna

4:53

Ferris. Wow. Me that's a gang it

4:55

was amazing. It's a ladies. It's like

4:57

white lotus, right? But funny essentially, you

5:00

know, but funny yes Yeah, it was

5:02

a it was a time it was

5:04

a masterclass. It was beautiful. I was

5:06

pinching myself I was like in my

5:08

body and outside of my body. It

5:10

was amazing. It was really amazing and

5:13

what I love about I mean I've

5:15

been doing this for like 25 years,

5:17

right I've been doing this and to

5:19

still do things that I am excited

5:21

about. It feels like I'm starting all

5:24

over again. It's like a first day

5:26

at school. It's like really dope. Yeah.

5:28

Well, that's fantastic. So you've been really

5:30

busy for people to understand. We're recording

5:32

this on the same day that season

5:34

two of your Netflix show, which I

5:37

love, Survival of the Thicest Premier's. Congratulations.

5:39

I think it's a wonderful. Thank you.

5:41

Did you watch? Did you watch it?

5:43

Yes, I watched the first season and

5:45

then they sent me early things. There's

5:48

a series of series happening right now.

5:50

Running Point is another one that I

5:52

think are just lovely to watch and

5:54

they're fun and interesting. and feature women,

5:56

women, different. But the series is based

5:58

on your book of personal essays that

6:01

came out in 2020. Can you explain

6:03

the show? You're the Mavis Beaumont, an

6:05

up-and-coming stylist. Talk to me a little

6:07

bit about the show and how you

6:09

conceived it. Yeah, for sure, it's so

6:12

interesting that you mentioned Running Point because

6:14

also co-created by Mindy Kaylin. So like,

6:16

when you have women of color in

6:18

positions of power, you know, to call

6:20

the shots and... to really, you know,

6:23

as we say, put their foot in

6:25

it and create something delicious, then it's

6:27

only going to sing. And so, that's

6:29

why diversity matters. That's why, you know,

6:31

when you have a table, make sure

6:33

that everybody gets a seat, but come

6:36

to that table some manners. Not Mindy.

6:38

I'm just, you know, throwing strays to

6:40

people who don't have manners, but, um...

6:42

You know and that's the beautiful thing

6:44

about working with Netflix, too It's like

6:47

such an international platform It isn't like

6:49

the old school networks where you really

6:51

have to fit a circle in a

6:53

square and it's just like my wife

6:55

and kids and you know It's just

6:57

giving we subscribe to two genders. It's

7:00

like no Life is wild and beautiful

7:02

and we have vocabulary to like describe

7:04

our feelings and you know our journeys

7:06

in a way we never had before

7:08

and I love that Netflix is like

7:11

the more you Do you? The more

7:13

specific you are, the better it is.

7:15

So I love that you said running

7:17

point because one of my writer producers,

7:19

Grace Edwards, who's amazing, on my show,

7:21

also worked on that show and I'm

7:24

just like, I love women of color.

7:26

So I have been doing standing for

7:28

a long time and most damn queens

7:30

will tell you I want to write

7:32

a book. We don't know about what.

7:35

We just like feel like it's on

7:37

the list. Like you want to go

7:39

to the Montreal Festival. You want to

7:41

do a special. You want to do

7:43

a half hour special, an hour special

7:46

with like a maroon curtain behind you

7:48

and like, you know, just looking up

7:50

at the crowd and waving and just

7:52

wearing like a black suit, you know,

7:54

like. Yeah, there's a journey. There's a

7:56

journey, right? And there's like a list

7:59

at every, but anyways, I want to

8:01

write a book. I met a book

8:03

agent, Robert Gunsler, who's working with Phoebe

8:05

Robinson and Genene L. Shiree. And I

8:07

didn't understand what the idea was. I

8:10

just was like, I have buckets of

8:12

personality. I want to do something. And

8:14

this is so long ago. And then

8:16

I started my IVF journey. And I'm

8:18

like, I'm busy. I don't have time

8:20

to do this. And I was doing

8:23

morning TV. I'm of each one. And

8:25

he kept checking in. He's like, what's

8:27

the book. What's the book? What's the

8:29

book? What's the book? At this. At

8:31

this. At this. At this. At this.

8:34

2016-1718, I'm like, I don't have time

8:36

to write a book, plus like, who's

8:38

gonna read it? And so I got

8:40

into this, like, this, I guess it

8:42

would be like imposter syndrome or something.

8:44

I don't know what to call it,

8:47

but I was doing that thing where

8:49

I was doing that thing where I

8:51

was doing that thing where I was

8:53

telling that thing where I was telling

8:55

that's part of the process and you

8:58

should feel that, but like, you got

9:00

to do that. be done. And then

9:02

when I finally was over this IVF

9:04

journey and brought my twins home in

9:06

my hospital, I'm like, I think I

9:09

have time to write a book now

9:11

that I have twins at home? What

9:13

was I thinking? Right, right. So I

9:15

signed on. I tried and I couldn't

9:17

really get anything together and I didn't

9:19

know what I wanted to share and

9:22

I was either sharing too much or

9:24

not enough. I'm like, is this funny?

9:26

Is this too emotional, too sincere? What's

9:28

my place? What's my voice on paper?

9:30

But I had all these stories like

9:33

through podcasting or storytelling shows that didn't

9:35

fit into straight up stand-up. I was

9:37

like, these stories mean something and they're

9:39

wild, but where do they go? And

9:41

Phoebe Robinson gave me a great piece

9:43

of advice when she was writing her

9:46

book that she told me and she

9:48

didn't make it up, but someone told

9:50

her, write like everyone you know is

9:52

dead? Mm-hmm. I don't know. That worked

9:54

for me. I was able to sort

9:57

of... Get over my writers block and

9:59

just spaghetti theory that shit. How didn't

10:01

it move into the show because you're

10:03

not a stylist? Yeah, I mean, I

10:05

was just like get it done. I

10:07

don't know who's... going to read it

10:10

and who cares? What I didn't realize

10:12

is that like a lot of people

10:14

were waiting for a lot of IP

10:16

from me because I was pitching a

10:18

lot of stuff I was writing a

10:21

lot of stuff but I realized that

10:23

I wasn't writing it in my voice.

10:25

I was writing it in my voice.

10:27

I was writing it in my voice.

10:29

I was writing stuff for what I

10:32

thought people wanted and that's why I

10:34

wasn't able to sell any but so.

10:36

And I couldn't imagine, like, that that's

10:38

how a show would get done. Because

10:40

I thought you'd do, like, a really

10:42

strong stand-up set on Fallon. Yeah. You

10:45

know, Allah of Rosambar or Ellen, you

10:47

know, and that's how you get your

10:49

show, or you just keep pitching and

10:51

writing, or you go to a festival.

10:53

But it's like, no, pouring your heart

10:56

and soul out in a bunch of

10:58

essays about anything. You started to... pursue

11:00

comedy. Explain to me what you're doing

11:02

in this particular show. This is you,

11:04

this character, but it happens to be

11:06

a stylist. What's the sort of main

11:09

themes from your perspective? I thought being

11:11

a stylist was such a great parallel

11:13

to stand-up comedy. You know, having parents

11:15

from the Caribbean, they worked so hard

11:17

to give you everything in a good

11:20

education. And when I told my parents

11:22

I was doing stand-up, they're like, but

11:24

you still have a job, right? they

11:26

couldn't wrap their mind around it and

11:28

I could see Mavis's parents being like

11:30

people can dress themselves what are you

11:33

doing and so there was that and

11:35

being a stylist is also one of

11:37

these like great artistic jobs in New

11:39

York where you could make no money

11:41

or make all the money you could

11:44

be in a back alley styling someone

11:46

or like in a penthouse like in

11:48

two days it it's also one of

11:50

those Jobs much like comedy too where

11:52

you have to fight you have to

11:55

hustle you have to like listen to

11:57

your inner voice You know intuitions everything

11:59

you have to put yourself out there

12:01

and then also I thought being a

12:03

stylus was a great way to showcase

12:05

the discrepancies in fashion and you know

12:08

and really being a stylist is serving

12:10

the stories where everybody deserves to feel

12:12

loved on and that we don't have

12:14

to live up to some unrealistic patriarchal

12:16

standard of beauty like even though we

12:19

don't see ourselves in those magazines we

12:21

could see ourselves within each other and

12:23

so I thought fashion was a great

12:25

way to do that too and then honestly

12:27

Being a stylus, I was like... Yeah,

12:29

you can do clothes. She's got to

12:31

wear really cute clothes, guys. We need

12:33

a budget for the clothes. Yeah, that's

12:35

funny. But what were you going to

12:37

do in journalism? What was your thought of

12:39

why you wanted to do that? Oh my goodness.

12:42

I really want to be an entertainment

12:44

reporter. I want to be Mary Hart,

12:46

John Tesh, I want to wear a

12:48

statement lip and have some shoulder pads

12:50

and give you the news for a

12:52

half hour after dinner. And that's what

12:55

I really want to do. Because my

12:57

mom and I like loved reading the

12:59

Inquirer and like just having tea time

13:01

and I went to school in Miami

13:03

for TV production and I remember we

13:06

were going around the class and my

13:08

professor was like what do you guys

13:10

want to do with this degree

13:12

and I said entertainment

13:14

journalism and entertainment reporter

13:16

and he said well you're just

13:19

simply too fat to be on camera.

13:21

I was so I was so I was so young

13:23

was like 18 or 19 and I was taught

13:25

to like respect my elders and

13:28

not question people right and so

13:30

while I was like kind of embarrassed

13:32

I was also like he's right I

13:34

don't see myself anywhere on TV so

13:36

I guess that's true and sort

13:38

of accepted it and um went

13:41

into production, so I'm like, well, at least

13:43

I still get to be a part of the

13:45

process. Right, right. But even editing people and

13:47

field producing, I was so tired of telling

13:49

basic people how to have fun. I'm like,

13:51

where's your joy, bitch? Find it. Why are you

13:53

here? Right. But speaking about your childhood, in your

13:55

book, you write about watching TV as a kid,

13:58

not seeing anyone, as you said, with your... shape.

14:00

It happened way before that. You made

14:02

the show I think you were missing

14:04

back then in a lot of ways

14:06

despite the title, the thickest. It's more

14:08

than about survival. I mean it's obviously

14:10

a pun on survival to fittest, but

14:13

it's about the joy of being the

14:15

thickest and using thickest as a positive

14:17

term, right? Yes, for people who haven't

14:19

seen it. Can you describe a seeing

14:21

where you feel like you really nailed

14:23

that joy or is a more general

14:25

vibe what you do and don't say?

14:28

I think it's more of a general

14:30

vibe. You know, there's at no point

14:32

where my character doesn't think she's

14:34

sexy or worthy of love. You know, and

14:36

I feel like, let's lead by example,

14:38

you know, it's funny because in the pilot,

14:40

when my character gets cheated on, she

14:42

tells her best friend, Kaleel, like, how

14:45

dare he leave me for like a skinny

14:47

version of me? And a lot of people

14:49

were like, uh-oh, here we go, another big

14:51

girl feeling sorry for herself for herself. It's

14:54

like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's

14:56

like, like, like, like, like, like, Like, she's

14:58

sorry that this happened, and

15:00

she's justating what happened, but

15:02

at no point does she think that

15:05

her size is not beautiful, and that

15:07

is the main takeaway. Right, right. I

15:09

think that that was interesting, because you

15:11

do exude that, like, I look great,

15:13

I look sexy, that even the first

15:15

scene with your boyfriend, in the back

15:17

when you're looking at clothes, is like

15:19

that. Which I was noticing. I was

15:21

like, huh, you don't see that. It's

15:23

usually the center of the topic. I'm

15:25

so tired of that. I am too.

15:27

But all the body positivity has been

15:30

a thing for a while. But in

15:32

the past year or so, obviously, and

15:34

part of my next book is about

15:36

some of these drugs around weight laws,

15:38

around psychedelics, the whole bunch of stuff

15:40

about future tech. But no spurs, but I

15:42

did catch a hint of diss in season

15:44

too when your character say, look out Oprah

15:46

gale on the side of Ozemphic. ever want

15:48

to use these things in the plot because

15:50

it's called survival the thickest and there are

15:53

body issues in it although it's not the

15:55

center of the plot which i really appreciated

15:57

because again it could have gone that way

15:59

yeah i think enough people are talking

16:01

about as epic it was more just

16:03

like it was more just like a joke

16:05

because it's so on the zi guys do

16:07

you know what I mean? But there's a

16:09

lot of like those little throwaways that like

16:12

mean something you know like deep in

16:14

the season I think it's like episode

16:16

7 or 8. Maybe it gets into

16:18

it with a fashion designer who

16:20

has decided to just design skinny

16:23

bodies. And I remember one of

16:25

my improv lines that I fought to

16:27

keep in there was like, leave dressing

16:29

skinny white women to Kanye. That's

16:31

his thing. Everyone's like, oh, we don't

16:34

know about that. I'm like, I do. Yeah, leave

16:36

it in there. You know, it says what

16:38

it needs to say and we can

16:40

move on. Perfect timing. Perfect timing now.

16:42

I mean, he just continues to step

16:44

in it. You know. We'll

16:52

be

16:57

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16:59

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17:01

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17:03

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Exclusion supply. This show is about flipping

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conversations about bodies all shapes and sizes.

18:28

You and Alana, Glazer, kind of did

18:30

this last year with babes, which I

18:32

love, the movie. Oh, thank you for

18:34

watching! You know, I know, I talked

18:37

to a lot about it, but it's

18:39

essentially about motherhood, but you push back

18:41

against reviews that called it. It was

18:43

back against reviews that called it raunchy.

18:46

It was a lot of discussion about

18:48

body sex in the city, but they

18:50

did it in a clean. white lady

18:52

way I guess I don't know what

18:55

else to say but yeah fancy way

18:57

a fancy way talk a little bit

18:59

about that idea I didn't think it

19:01

was raunchy but I could see why

19:04

people did at the same time if

19:06

I could you know I try hard

19:08

to be like huh why did they

19:10

think that yeah Lana and I were

19:13

talking about this too it's so crazy

19:15

because we were just like how is

19:17

this raunchy when it's just the female

19:19

truth but We realize that females aren't

19:22

allowed to say things. Don't complain. Don't

19:24

talk about your body. Be sexy, not

19:26

too sexy. Be smart, but not too

19:28

smart. You know, have an opinion, but

19:31

don't keep talking. And so it's just

19:33

like we're constantly figuring out how to

19:35

take our space up, whether it's in

19:37

a room or like on a subway.

19:40

And I'm really kind of tired. I'm

19:42

actually exhausted. Like I have been tab

19:44

dancing for the patriarchy way too long.

19:46

You know. And we keep talking about

19:49

a boys club and this that and

19:51

the third. I'm just like, what about

19:53

the gays and the days? You know,

19:55

getting back to the whole like, Mavis

19:58

is not going to apologize for being

20:00

big and being loved on. I have

20:02

so much in common when I talk

20:04

to gay men and they talk about

20:07

like being in high school and the

20:09

guys that like always really loved them

20:11

but we were always a secret and

20:14

it's just like we're not a secret

20:16

anymore right to say we're a secret

20:18

is to say something's wrong with us

20:20

right and I think also for women

20:23

especially since like our bodies are under

20:25

attack like we are literally fighting to

20:27

make decisions about our own holes insane

20:29

I can't Oh my god, Mitch McConnell

20:32

has three chins. Let's just move on.

20:34

I don't want to body shame his

20:36

face, but look. But look. Yeah, and

20:38

it's just like, I don't even feel

20:41

comfortable having this conversation with my doctor.

20:43

What? That's crazy. And I am bending

20:45

over backwards killing myself to have health

20:47

insurance, which is like a luxury in

20:50

America. And when I even show up,

20:52

I have to make my male doctor

20:54

feel comfortable, which is. What I love

20:56

about those scenes that Alana and Josh

20:59

wrote in Babes, it's like even though

21:01

we are in our most vulnerable positions,

21:03

legs up, scoop down, why am I

21:05

screwing down? Why is there even a

21:08

chair? You know what I mean? I

21:10

still have to make you and your

21:12

hair transplant come to, it's like so

21:14

insane and so, you know, I do

21:17

feel like arts. film, TV, music, you

21:19

can change that. You know, you can

21:21

move the needle, it is culture, you

21:23

can have a conversation. You know, it

21:26

actually reminds me, it's interesting, you talk

21:28

about that when I was pregnant, I

21:30

have a female gown ecologist, and I

21:32

had, she was away, and so someone

21:35

had to check me, and she was

21:37

away, and so someone had to check

21:39

me at the very last parts of

21:41

my pregnancy, right, when he was doing

21:44

it. And I said, what in the

21:46

actual fuck in the room? And he

21:48

didn't say sorry. And of course, you're

21:50

demented at the end of your pregnancy

21:53

because you think everything's going to go

21:55

wrong, right? I know. So I said,

21:57

you and your fucking manhands. And I

21:59

go, it goes, what? And I said,

22:02

your manhands make me bleed. Do not

22:04

have your man hands, maybe never do

22:06

that to a woman. And he was.

22:09

like shocked and I was like man

22:11

hands he goes I don't have man

22:13

hands I go man hands and this

22:15

was like it felt like a delary

22:18

David episode or something but babies is

22:20

actually a story about friendship there is

22:22

a lot of wrong there's not raunchy

22:24

it's that's not the right word it's

22:27

not the right word it's that's not

22:29

the right word it's that's not the

22:31

right word it's just explicit it's just

22:33

explicit I guess yeah and you talk

22:36

about things women actually talk about but

22:38

landing your first special you run the

22:40

road with a lot of big-name comedians

22:42

Amy shit humor, Hannibal Beres, Camille Nanjani,

22:45

who's a lovely guy, name a few.

22:47

How do these relationships affect you? And

22:49

did their work influence you? You write

22:51

about a fellow comic, stealing your stuff,

22:54

which I think is common. It might

22:56

have been Camille, actually. I don't know

22:58

who it was. But I'm teasing you.

23:00

Yeah. Can I just get back to

23:03

manhands for two seconds? Sure. Sure. Sure.

23:05

Because I wasn't able to carry so

23:07

we had a surrogate. And so it

23:09

felt so I felt so outside of

23:12

my body like because surrogacy was illegal

23:14

illegal in New York So we went

23:16

to the closest state which was Pennsylvania

23:18

Mm-hmm. These surrogates are like walking angels

23:21

on earth They are and I remember

23:23

she had to go to another doctor

23:25

at the end and she started to

23:27

bleed Because he was rough and she

23:30

was carrying my twins and like super

23:32

tender and so I remember this took

23:34

me back because I remember her crying

23:36

on the phone And I was just,

23:39

it felt like someone just lit me

23:41

up. I wanted to run to Pennsylvania

23:43

at that moment. It was like a

23:45

Costco-sized serving of road rage. Just to,

23:48

you know what I mean? And I

23:50

feel like no matter what life in

23:52

the universe is always telling me to

23:54

share your space, share your heart, and

23:57

defend people when they need it the

23:59

most. And, you know, if anything, being

24:01

the only child and going to so

24:04

many schools has taught me to... Collaborate

24:06

well, listen to people, be a team

24:08

player. It isn't all about me. work

24:10

better together, we're stronger together, recognize when

24:13

someone doesn't have your back and move

24:15

on, don't try to convince a bad

24:17

person that you're a good person. Because

24:19

I used to be like, no, no,

24:22

no, we could do this. No, no,

24:24

we could do this. I'm just like,

24:26

why am I so upset? And so

24:28

saying the man hands of it all,

24:31

I was like, I mean, I really

24:33

found my inner caring, you know, you

24:35

know. And then I stomped with Andy

24:37

with Andy Cohen in New York Owen

24:40

in New York to overturn gestational gestational

24:42

justational circusy. I didn't believe it. When

24:44

you just said it was illegal, I

24:46

was like, what? Like, what are you

24:49

talking about? And even the reasons that,

24:51

because we talked to a bunch of

24:53

officials and even the reasons that they

24:55

were talking about, like, but is it

24:58

sex work? And it's just like, sex

25:00

isn't even involved. Like, why are you

25:02

sexualizing everything? How come like alternative family

25:04

planning is not a priority on your

25:07

list? Everyone deserves love. And this is

25:09

like also the themes in my show.

25:11

Everyone deserves love. It doesn't matter what

25:13

they look like or how they identify.

25:16

You know, it's called humanity, bitch. Look

25:18

at the fuck up. Like, what are

25:20

we talking about? And so, like, it

25:22

was so crazy and beautiful and like,

25:25

just, just heart-wrenching, meeting cancer survivors who

25:27

were able to, like, save their eggs,

25:29

because they want to, you know, that

25:31

they want to start a family, and

25:34

they knew that they were to survive

25:36

cancer. How are you to say to

25:38

say to them, no? So all this

25:40

is to say, man hands, not into

25:43

it. In fact, I mean, I- This

25:45

should be the name of your next

25:47

book if you want. But tell me

25:49

about your colleagues, when you're on the

25:52

road with colleagues. Oh my goodness. You

25:54

know that's saying you are the company

25:56

you keep? I do think it's the

25:58

same in comedy. What I love is

26:01

about comedy is like, it's such a

26:03

motley crew. It's such a rag tag

26:05

of like, fuckery. And you're really forced

26:08

to be in a space with someone

26:10

that you ordinarily would never hang out

26:12

with. And the common theme is, how

26:14

do we make shit funny? We've all

26:17

been through a lot. Everyone's been through

26:19

a lot, but we recognize it and

26:21

we talk about it, you know, and

26:23

we just see the world a different

26:26

way. And so... So, actually miss, I

26:28

miss going to comedy clubs and hanging

26:30

out with people, but I don't miss

26:32

late nights because I want to be

26:35

in my bed at 930. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

26:37

Did I answer your question? I don't

26:39

even know. Yes, it's fine, but this

26:41

actually works perfectly into this question. Every

26:44

week we get a question from an

26:46

outside expert. You have a special one

26:48

for you. Oh. Always bring so much

26:50

energy and life and juice and sauce

26:53

to every room you walk into. Things

26:55

have been very full for you from

26:57

putting out your stand-up special as the

26:59

first woman to film a stand-up special

27:02

in Radio City Music Hall. Putting out

27:04

the second season of Survival of the

27:06

Thickets, which you worked so hard to

27:08

do from the inside out, and you

27:11

just finished filming a movie overseas. What

27:13

is a moment you remember from being

27:15

a kid or a teenager that connects

27:17

to this moment of fullness for you?

27:20

Sending you love, love you, you're both

27:22

my heroes. What and then this is

27:24

your life is going on? I know,

27:26

this is it. So it's a great

27:29

question. Yeah. This is so ridiculous. Maybe

27:31

I was seven or eight and I

27:33

lived on a cul-de-sac in Jersey. And

27:35

instead of just drawing, I made like

27:38

a little magazines. I found the stapler

27:40

and I was like, oh, I could

27:42

put it together. And then I decided

27:44

to make a bunch of magazines and

27:47

I called it head over heels. And

27:49

I had like a severed head in

27:51

a shoe. I thought it was very

27:53

literal. And then like I would kind

27:56

of write. stories about all the happenings

27:58

on the cul-de-sac, like so-and-so's dog pooped,

28:00

so-and-so's like doing their pool over, and

28:03

I would put it in everybody's mailbox.

28:05

And at one point, the neighbors asked

28:07

my parents for me to stop putting

28:09

stuff in their mailbox. But I just

28:12

remember thinking, this is so fun. I

28:14

didn't understand what community organizing was then,

28:16

but I was like, I'm going to

28:18

bring everyone together. And this is going

28:21

to be really fun. And I get

28:23

to be artistic. And then

28:25

also I was rejected and I

28:27

was like, okay, got it. You

28:29

don't want to hear from me?

28:31

That's weird. It's such like a

28:33

moment for like what this career

28:35

is. Right. I'm going to keep

28:37

putting stuff in your mailbox. Like

28:39

you put your heart and soul

28:41

out there and someone's like, I

28:43

don't know, not for me. It's

28:45

like you can't even appreciate the

28:48

thing I made. It's very mother-in-law

28:50

at Thanksgiving. It's like, but tasting.

28:52

You know. Did you continue? Did

28:54

you continue? Did you continue? Did

28:56

you keep going? No, I moved

28:58

on. And this is also telling.

29:00

I was like. Head over heels

29:02

was had one issue. You know,

29:04

I think around college I came

29:06

up with this like mantra for

29:08

myself and it was dating, but

29:10

it actually applies to the industry.

29:12

If you don't want to hear

29:14

from me, you're going to hear

29:16

about me. But and so I

29:18

moved on and I started the

29:20

pound puppy cabbage bash kid club.

29:22

I invited four or five girls.

29:24

Oh, that's a position of power.

29:26

That's come over. And it's interesting

29:29

because community is, it's about community,

29:31

I think is what you're talking

29:33

about, is a major theme in

29:35

survival, the thickest as well. In

29:37

season two, you lean into your

29:39

character's connections with the transgender community.

29:41

It's not overtly political, but it

29:43

is. Talk a little about the

29:45

community because this came up in

29:47

your Netflix specials, radios, radios, radios,

29:49

radios, and then you go. and

29:51

reflect on making that joke. I

29:53

want to play the clip first

29:55

and I want you to reflect

29:57

on it. We can tell jokes

29:59

and stories and not disparage a

30:01

whole community. We can do that!

30:03

We can make it funny, we

30:05

just have to work at it,

30:07

right? So if you guys ever

30:09

run into Dave Chappelle, can you

30:12

let him know that shit? I

30:14

don't think he knows that shit.

30:16

I don't think we'll ever run

30:18

into Dave though, because he is

30:20

the goat. And he is the

30:22

goat, if that means going off

30:24

about trans people. Dave! It's not

30:26

funny. It's dangerous. Make it funny.

30:35

That's all. I can't believe somebody

30:37

would make millions and millions of

30:40

dollars for making people feel unsafe.

30:42

That is so wild to me.

30:44

Like, truly. I'm manifesting this shit

30:46

tonight. This is a Radio City

30:48

music hall takeover and I'm going

30:50

to tell everybody. I want to

30:53

make millions and millions of dollars

30:55

for making people feel safe, seen,

30:57

secure, heard, and entertained. You know,

30:59

you're making a really salient point

31:01

here. I went off a Netflix

31:03

on Chappelle only because I was

31:06

like, it's not funny. It's also

31:08

an hour of not funny. He

31:10

had a bit about lesbians. It

31:12

also wasn't funny, but I was

31:14

like, I'm up for lesbian jokes.

31:16

If they're good, they're good. I'm

31:19

willing to listen to them. I'm

31:21

not overly sensitive. Talk about that

31:23

idea of what you're doing there

31:25

and you're doing it on the

31:27

show again. You're not just calling

31:29

out Chappelle, you're making the point

31:32

about what's funny and what makes

31:34

money. Talk a little bit about

31:36

what you're doing here. I feel

31:38

like once you're given the opportunity

31:40

to speak your mind on a

31:42

platform, then be responsible and do

31:45

that. And so I can show

31:47

up and be funny and write

31:49

jokes and not offend. Or but

31:51

it's not about that. It's about

31:53

making people think. have

31:56

some thought provoking

31:58

anything and I

32:00

really had to say something because

32:02

it is dangerous. And people are

32:04

being rewarded for that. And I'm

32:06

just like... And the internet really

32:08

tried to hand my ass back

32:10

to me, you know, and it's like...

32:13

And the same parallel with this

32:15

administration is just like, why do you

32:17

get to say the most egregious

32:19

shit, but I can't put my hand

32:21

up and say, I do not

32:23

agree? Right. That's dangerous too. Why

32:25

would you punch down on a marginalized

32:28

community? Constantly. That's not fun. That's

32:30

not even how comedy really works. And

32:32

so a lot of these comedians

32:34

who are just like, you can't

32:36

do anything anymore, you can just make

32:38

it funny, put the work in.

32:41

You can do it. You've done it

32:43

before. By the way, y'all were

32:45

woke 20-25 years ago. Don't forget that.

32:47

I think it's really egregious to

32:49

say these horrible things. Not just

32:51

a lot of it, like it's okay

32:54

to say these really egregious things

32:56

about people who cannot defend themselves. People

32:58

who are trying to live their

33:00

life, stand in their truth, and

33:02

you have the government saying you don't

33:04

exist and you shouldn't exist. That's

33:06

insane. This is where it leads to.

33:09

And culture makes a difference. Look

33:11

at Kendrick Lamar's halftime show. Okay,

33:13

you can do that. I'm not saying

33:15

everybody's got to, you know, stand

33:17

on business and be political all the

33:19

time, but like if you're going

33:21

to say something, at least make it

33:24

funny. You know, because these people

33:26

are like really rich and they

33:28

get to say whatever they want to

33:30

say, then they go on their

33:32

private jets and they talk to who

33:34

they're going to talk to, and

33:36

they have, yes, people around them,

33:38

and everybody works for them, and they

33:41

go home and they're safe. No,

33:43

we have to be out in the

33:45

world. We have to walk down

33:47

that street and get ourselves home. We

33:49

have to be on the subway.

33:51

You know, and people are like

33:53

looking up to these people and listening

33:56

to them, whether they're a politician

33:58

or a comedian. And so... I,

34:01

um, and you went the other

34:03

way in survival where you really

34:05

integrated in the transit, you integrated

34:07

them into the show, which was

34:10

interesting. When you just, um... But

34:12

it's not, to me, it's not

34:14

integration. It's just your life. It's

34:16

life. Yeah. It's like, you know,

34:19

I told Netflix from jump, I

34:21

want to show my, my version

34:23

of New York City, and this

34:25

is my, like, I love Sex

34:28

in the City, I love Seinfeld,

34:30

but I'm just like, y'all don't

34:32

have one Puerto Rico friend, y'all

34:34

live in New York City, that's

34:37

crazy. Not one Blackford, not one

34:39

different, what is going on? So

34:41

like, yeah, I'm like, we're not

34:43

going to a diner, we're going

34:46

to the drag bar. Right, right.

34:48

That's, that's where we met up.

34:50

Did you worry at all in

34:52

both those instances? Ignore it. You

34:55

know. It's the loudest people in

34:57

the room. It's not reality. Yeah.

34:59

And because there's like so many

35:01

sick people in my family, I

35:04

know that we're not promised tomorrow.

35:06

And so I'm just like, I

35:08

am who I am. I'm going

35:10

to stand on business. It's going

35:13

to be hard. It hurts my

35:15

feelings. I move on. It doesn't

35:17

determine my worth or happiness. And

35:19

I'm doing it for those people

35:22

that need it. You know. because

35:24

I like that one voice like

35:26

matters. You know what I mean?

35:28

Like if I can make someone

35:31

feel better seen than that's all

35:33

that matters. And you know, the

35:35

DEMs that people send me or

35:37

the stories that they tell to

35:40

my bloated freckle face at 4am

35:42

in the airport, I do appreciate

35:44

it. Yeah, me too. There's another

35:46

moment in a special where you

35:49

tell a story about being high

35:51

and your husband dragging you to

35:53

a reptile exhibit, where you have

35:55

a special encounter with a bearded

35:58

dragon and a magillady. You really

36:00

don't... You go right in there.

36:02

Let's listen to this. The tour

36:04

guide was like so happy. He's

36:07

like, she never does this. She

36:09

trusts you. She loves you. And

36:11

I was like, she sure do.

36:13

But honestly, right now is giving

36:16

they them. Uh-huh. Just being on

36:18

the real real. And then I

36:20

heard a voice in the pack

36:22

of camouflage. Say, oh. You want

36:25

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I told you so! I told

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52:29

my goodness, I just sort of had

52:31

this conversation with one of my really

52:33

good friends last night. A title like

52:35

late night or talk show host, like

52:37

daytime talk show host or movie star,

52:39

I feel like that shit's limiting. And

52:41

by saying movie star, then I'm like

52:43

giving my power over to like a

52:45

few hundred people that make movies and

52:47

it's just like, fuck that. You know

52:49

I can make a movie too, so

52:51

I just feel like for me the

52:53

thing I want to do is be

52:55

working is to be an artist to

52:57

create to executive produce my own shit

52:59

to give people a voice to tell

53:01

their stories, to uplift people, to change

53:03

their resume, to make sure that people

53:05

who have not had access to things

53:07

have them, get them in the room,

53:09

give them confidence to believe that they

53:12

can do it. And while I'm also,

53:14

hello, make our money too, let's go,

53:16

you know, to really create some generational

53:18

wealth, so we can have some generational

53:20

health, period. So there isn't one title,

53:22

because the title is Michelle Buto. Hello.

53:24

I like that. The title is Michel

53:26

Boudoupe. That's the day for that episode.

53:28

I'm going to leave it at that.

53:30

Dope. Thank you so much. Thank you.

53:32

It's so nice meeting you. On with

53:34

Karas Fisher is produced by Christian Castor

53:36

Russell, Kateri Yoakum, Dave Shaw, Megan Kune,

53:38

Megan Cunein, and Caitlin Lynch. Deshot Kerwa

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is Vox Media's executive producer of audio.

53:42

Special thanks to Kate Meade's executive producer

53:44

of audio. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher

53:46

Kate Gallagher, Kate Gallagher, Kate Gallagher, Kate

53:48

Gallagher, Kate Gallagher, Kate Gallagher, Kate Gallagher,

53:50

Kate Gallagher, Kate Gallagher, Kate Gallagher, Kate

53:52

Gallagher, Kate Gallagher, Kate Gallagher, Kate Gallagher,

53:54

Kate Gallagher, Kate Gallagher, Kate Gallagher, Kate

53:56

Gallagher, Kate Gallagher, Kate Gallagher, Kate Gallagher,

53:58

Fernando Aruda and Jackson. And

54:01

our theme music is

54:03

is by If you're

54:05

already following the show, you

54:07

are not the show, you for tap dancing for

54:09

the If not, go check out

54:11

check out barbecue showdown. Go wherever you

54:13

listen to to search for search for

54:15

Swisher and hit follow and make

54:17

sure you're following make Kara Swisher

54:19

on Instagram, on with Kara Swisher on Instagram,

54:21

Not Sky, and sorry, on X. Sorry, Thanks

54:23

for listening to On with Kara

54:25

Swisher Swisher York New York magazine, The Box Media

54:27

Podcast be back on Thursday with

54:29

more. with more.