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the racketin app. That's R -A -K

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-U -T -E -N, racketin.com. Hi,

1:41

I'm I'm Love Harden and I'm the

1:43

only rule follower with 32

1:45

felonies. And I and I would have

1:47

to 1 ,000 felonies that meant

1:50

that if it would not lose my children

1:52

forever. lose my guilty to So I lot of

1:54

things I didn't do. a lot of things I

1:56

but it didn't matter, right? didn't It matter,

1:58

right? It was, but it's a weird

2:00

number to have because on paper it makes it on

2:02

paper the makes it seem like I'm

2:05

the scariest person in the county right? I

2:07

think that's some street cred cred there that I

2:09

never wanted. But I thought okay I I thought, do

2:11

okay, I will, I will do

2:13

everything. all the I will follow all the

2:15

rules. I am incarcerated. I I will

2:17

follow all the rules when I

2:19

get out on probation on I

2:22

will be done. I will And what

2:24

I didn't realize was that never never done.

2:26

Sometimes generations are not done. And

2:28

it was so hard to not go back to

2:30

jail for reasons not go back to

2:32

jail for reasons that have nothing

2:34

to do with a committing a crime

2:36

or doing a drug again. it was

2:38

almost And it was almost impossible

2:40

not to go back. And there

2:42

were times when I was like, I

2:44

be safer there. I will be

2:46

more welcome there. I will be

2:49

loved more there. Hi,

2:51

I'm I'm Laura Robbins And this

2:53

is the only one in one in

2:55

the an independent podcast supported by

2:57

you, our you are

2:59

members. Please see our show

3:02

notes to find out more about joining

3:04

our about or if you'd like more information

3:06

about anything in this episode. This

3:08

podcast is for anyone who

3:10

has ever felt alone in a

3:12

room ever felt which is to

3:14

say that this podcast is for

3:16

everyone. this podcast is for everyone. Hi,

3:40

I'm I'm Cathcott This

3:42

is the only

3:44

one in the

3:47

room, but I'm

3:49

never the only

3:52

one in this

3:54

room the as

3:56

usual, in my boyfriend,

3:59

producer and my boyfriend,

4:01

producer, and co-host, producer. executive

4:03

producer, Scott Slaughter. That's not mandatory,

4:06

but I appreciate it. Executive Boyfriend.

4:08

you go. Boyfriend, I always seen

4:10

sounds a little less than what

4:13

we are. So executive really pops

4:15

it up. Executive boyfriend, yes. That

4:18

kind of puts you on the

4:20

top of the pile, I think.

4:22

Yeah. Hi, Hahn. Hi, honey. And

4:25

so today we are talking to

4:27

my friend, Laura Love Harden. She

4:29

is a literary agent, author, prison

4:32

reform advocate, and president of true

4:34

literary. Her memoir, The Many Lives

4:37

of Mama Love, is a 2024

4:39

Oprah book club pick and a

4:41

New York Times bestseller. She has

4:44

an MFA in creative writing and

4:46

apart from her book, she is

4:48

also a five-time New York Times

4:51

best-selling collaborative writer, including the number

4:53

one New York Times bestseller Designing

4:56

Your Life and the 2018 Oprah

4:58

book club pick, the Sun Does

5:00

Shine, which she co-authored with Anthony

5:03

Ray Hinton about his 30 years

5:05

as an innocent man. on Alabama's

5:07

death row. In 2019, she won

5:10

a Christopher Award for her work

5:12

affirming the highest values of the

5:14

human spirit, nominated for an NAACP

5:17

award, what, and shortlisted for the

5:19

Dayton Literary Peace Prize. Lara is

5:22

also the co-founder of the Gemma

5:24

Project, a gender-responsive organization serving incarcerated

5:26

and formally incarcerated women with integrity

5:29

and compassion. and she lives in

5:31

La Selva Beach, California. So, welcome,

5:33

welcome, welcome, Laura. Thank you for

5:36

coming on the show. Thank you.

5:38

I actually now live in Kona,

5:41

Hawaii. I have to update that.

5:43

Wait, did you move? I thought

5:45

you were just... Well, I sold

5:48

my house in La Selva Beach,

5:50

so I definitely don't live there.

5:52

And I'm prototyping. what

5:55

it feels like to live in Hawaii.

5:57

Because since I was 21 years old,

5:59

so just a few years ago. I

6:01

was like someday I'm gonna live there.

6:04

So I took my youngest son to

6:06

college and I came here to see

6:08

what it feels like, see if I

6:11

make friends. And you know, it's the

6:13

first time in my life I've ever

6:15

freely chosen where I live. Ever. Amazing.

6:18

So how long has it been? One

6:20

week. I

6:23

was just saying, can we get

6:25

a report? But I feel like

6:27

that's a little premature in a

6:29

week. Do you have a report?

6:31

Have you made any friends? I,

6:33

you know, I'm going to the

6:35

communities that I found in the

6:37

last 11 years in my hometown,

6:39

because I know we'll get into

6:41

my story, but I was really

6:43

very much alone. had no friends

6:45

for a long time. And so

6:47

I, you know, I had an

6:49

improv community that I've made friends.

6:51

I had a pickleball community that

6:54

I made friends. So I went

6:56

to, I'm going to improv tonight

6:58

here to check it out. I

7:00

had a pickleball lesson and met

7:02

some local people. I, yeah, I'm

7:04

just, I went to yoga this

7:06

morning. I'm not even someone who

7:08

does yoga, but I want to

7:10

be, it's aspirational. You're all. And

7:12

so I'm just seeing what it

7:14

feels like. And there's so much

7:16

more, I don't know the physics

7:18

of this or the science of

7:20

it, but I feel like there's

7:22

so much more time in the

7:24

day here. And it doesn't have

7:26

anything to do with daylight or

7:28

not, but it's a certain feel

7:30

in my nervous system, you know.

7:32

And not to jump ahead, but

7:34

when I was in jail, 16

7:36

years ago right now, I remember

7:38

looking at this postcard that someone

7:40

had on their window. And it

7:42

was a Hawaiian island. I don't

7:44

remember which one. And I said,

7:46

I'll never go there again. That

7:49

is my favorite place in the

7:51

world. I'll never go there. Wow.

7:53

So we could go with my

7:55

16 year anniversary and I am

7:57

here. Yeah. Is that right? Mm-hmm.

8:00

It was election

8:02

night. Election night

8:04

2008 when Obama

8:06

got elected. Snap.

8:08

Wow. Mm-hmm. Improv

8:10

is brave AF.

8:12

Have you always

8:14

done that? No.

8:16

Wow. No. I

8:18

live my whole

8:21

life very carefully

8:23

scripting it. Right.

8:25

So the idea

8:27

of improv. Yes.

8:29

And so I decided to

8:32

do something on my birthday

8:34

seven years ago that terrified

8:36

me and that was go

8:38

to an improv class, like

8:41

a dropping class. And I

8:43

forced some employees probably illegally

8:45

to go with me because

8:47

it was weekend. And it

8:50

was terrifying and really fun.

8:52

And I realized how long

8:54

it since I felt silly,

8:57

right? play in silliness. And

8:59

that's what I love. I

9:01

think secret, I'm very immature.

9:03

So, that's a nice outlet.

9:06

Well, I, so I'm thinking

9:08

you're there too right and

9:10

it's temporary. And so I'm,

9:12

I'm secretly or quietly thrilled

9:15

that you are considering living

9:17

there, especially since this is

9:19

a place you've longed for.

9:22

and that you get to

9:24

actually do that, which is

9:26

even more impressive once you

9:28

know your story, which we're

9:31

going to get into. I

9:33

was thinking of the Shawshank

9:35

redemption when you were drawing

9:37

that picture of you in

9:40

the jail cell looking at

9:42

that poster where he fantasizes

9:44

about leaving and how appropriate

9:47

you should be on the

9:49

show on your 16-year anniversary

9:51

and that full circle. So

9:53

thank you again for being

9:56

on the show. Thank you.

9:58

Yeah. You're getting choked up,

10:00

honey. You're not supposed to

10:02

say that on there. I

10:05

love it. This is why

10:07

I love you. Yeah, yeah.

10:09

It does seem to have

10:12

some weight to it. So

10:14

it does, it does, absolutely.

10:16

So Laura, you and I

10:18

met after both of our

10:21

books were out in the

10:23

world and our books have

10:25

really similar themes. We were

10:27

both moms who used pills

10:30

or abused pills and drugs

10:32

and alcohol, like whatever, whatever.

10:34

We were both boy moms.

10:37

So we have our boys,

10:39

my two and your four.

10:41

And your story ends up

10:43

a little bit different than

10:46

mine. Actually, your story ends

10:48

up a lot different than

10:50

mine. But because of how

10:52

exquisitely you write, I

10:55

don't think I would have needed

10:57

to have all those similarities in

10:59

common with you to have been

11:01

immersed into your story from like

11:04

the very first paragraph. And but

11:06

because I did I felt very

11:08

much this kinship this sister ship

11:10

with you way before I met

11:12

you and I was so gratified

11:14

that you were you were you

11:17

were open to that open to

11:19

being my sister when you met

11:21

me because I I was ahead

11:23

of the game I had already

11:25

decided and felt that connection through

11:28

your writing, like I said, which

11:30

is, I'm trying to think of

11:32

another word for it. It's more

11:34

than, it's really, it's that kind

11:36

of visceral, sensorial writing that I

11:38

love because I felt like I

11:41

was in your body, like I

11:43

was going through all these experiences.

11:45

I wasn't just reading about someone

11:47

doing it. I was, I was

11:49

there. I felt the anxiety. of

11:52

you know all the stakes that

11:54

are in there. I felt the

11:56

triumphs with you. I felt the

11:58

relief with you. And

12:00

so I'm obviously encouraging everybody who's

12:03

listening who has not yet read

12:05

your book to read it, but

12:08

I do want you to take

12:10

us through your story as though

12:12

we don't know it. You know,

12:15

one of your, my favorite things

12:17

that I quote a lot, I

12:19

actually teach her book in my

12:22

memoir class, and you were kind

12:24

enough to come in and be

12:26

a guest speaker, which was just

12:29

like, like all of my students

12:31

think I'm just the dopest teacher

12:33

ever because I got Laura Love

12:36

Harden in the class. But I

12:38

talked about as needed for pain.

12:40

Was that, is that the first

12:43

chapter as needed for pain? I

12:45

think so. I should know that.

12:47

I think so. Yeah. I know

12:50

chapter two is the equation. Yeah,

12:52

as needed for pain. Yes, yes.

12:54

So as Need for Pain talks

12:57

about, this is your first addiction,

12:59

right? About how reading, reading, and

13:01

escape and fantasy is your first

13:04

addiction. So can you just start

13:06

there a little bit for us

13:08

and kind of paint that picture

13:11

of what you were like as

13:13

a kid? Sure. And I will

13:16

say that before we met, I

13:18

had already declared to you my

13:20

best friend to you, which could

13:23

have been very weird for you,

13:25

but you just rolled with it.

13:27

So I appreciate that. It was

13:30

all love. Get it on your

13:32

best friend's class and help out.

13:34

I mean, you know, so I

13:37

had to, I trust my intuition

13:39

with people, right? So I had

13:41

that intuition anyway with you. And

13:44

part of that intuition is you

13:46

know, just to answer your question

13:48

is, is a trauma response, right?

13:51

There's a certain hypervigilance ability to

13:53

read people and read a room

13:55

and all of that, that I

13:58

think you, you get from a,

14:00

from a hard childhood, maybe, and

14:02

that becomes your superpower, right? I

14:05

think. trauma responses really become our

14:07

superpowers. And, you know, reading was

14:09

my first addiction. I grew up

14:12

in a chaotic family, a lot

14:14

of addiction alcoholism that was never

14:16

talked about. Like, I didn't have

14:19

the language for it. And so

14:21

my escape from a really confusing

14:24

sort of tumultuous existence where nothing

14:26

made sense was reading, you know,

14:28

and I, I, as visceral as

14:31

you say my writing in which

14:33

surprises me to hear anyone say

14:35

that, I, you know, I did

14:38

my whole childhood like two paragraphs,

14:40

honestly, one because there's a lot

14:42

of things I don't remember. And

14:45

two, because I want to make

14:47

sure I wasn't blaming anything, you

14:50

know, it was really important to

14:52

me that I'm the only villain

14:54

in my whole story, right? But,

14:56

you know, my childhood, I was

14:58

very precocious reader, like, you know,

15:00

I read all the books, as

15:02

many books as I could get

15:04

my hands on, you know, at

15:06

seven I was walking alone through

15:08

the woods of the library to

15:10

just get more books, you know,

15:12

it was a very addictive, Green

15:15

flag right like it was just

15:17

it was just like I wanted

15:19

I wanted to understand the world

15:21

and I wanted to see how

15:23

everyone else lived and you know

15:25

stories made sense books made sense

15:27

there was like clear motivations that

15:29

people had there was usually happy

15:31

endings and so I in my

15:33

own life I wasn't the motivations

15:35

of the people around me my

15:37

family were not clear to me

15:40

right so books are really a

15:42

refuge for that reason. It was

15:44

like, oh, God, look at this

15:46

perfectly art story. I love this.

15:48

Yeah. And order in the chaos,

15:50

right? Yeah, it was order in

15:52

the chaos. It was definitely escape.

15:54

And I could become other people.

15:56

You know, I was all these

15:58

other characters. And, you know, reading

16:00

is just, reading is that game.

16:02

drug to writing. So I started

16:05

writing in my childhood and and

16:07

it was how I made sense

16:09

of the world right like that's

16:11

how I process my internal role

16:13

because again I grew up in

16:15

a family work not once in

16:17

anyone say how are you feeling.

16:19

I don't think I'm being dramatic

16:21

when I say that my whole

16:23

life you know and my my

16:25

sister who's three years older than

16:27

me became a very severe

16:30

alcoholic as a teenager. No one talked about

16:32

it, but it was just kind of this.

16:34

I was embarrassed by it, right? Which I

16:36

feel bad about now, because I didn't know

16:39

at the time. I was just like, oh,

16:41

my sister was getting brought home by the

16:43

police. My sister, you know. And when I

16:45

was 19, she died in a drunk driving

16:47

accident. And I think the best way to

16:50

sort of the most succinct way to give

16:52

you the picture of my family was nobody

16:54

ever mentioned her name again. Wow.

16:58

Wow. So there was no

17:00

like grief process. There was

17:02

no... It was just gone.

17:04

You know, she was just

17:07

gone and we were never

17:09

to speak of her again.

17:11

Which would really mess you

17:13

up as a kid. What

17:15

is her name? Kim. Oh.

17:17

Well, you're talking about her.

17:20

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're you're

17:22

breaking that tradition in your

17:24

family or that that code.

17:26

I must have known that,

17:28

but I don't think I

17:31

remember that and I'm so

17:33

sorry to hear that. Thank

17:35

you. Yeah. Can I say

17:37

thank you for asking her

17:39

name? Like I've I've told

17:41

that story a lot of

17:44

interviews and places over the

17:46

last year. No one has

17:48

ever asked me her name.

17:51

That's why you're my best

17:54

friend. Yes. That's why you

17:56

and I. My executive best

17:58

friend. to be confused with

18:00

my executive boyfriend. Your executive

18:02

boyfriend. Yeah. Right. Don't get

18:05

that confused. No. No. Thank

18:07

you. Thank you for thanking

18:09

me for that and thank

18:11

you for sharing that. Seriously,

18:14

that's, it really gives a

18:16

much rounder fuller picture of,

18:18

you know, that peak inside

18:20

to how you grew up

18:22

and why books, why writing,

18:25

why they were so important.

18:28

And you know, and you're talking

18:30

about being, you know, an early

18:32

teenager too, right, like 12, 13,

18:34

when, you know, even younger than

18:36

that, a lot of young people

18:39

are into substances by that point,

18:41

but you were still escaping through

18:43

literature and writing at that time?

18:45

Yeah. Yeah, I was, I like

18:47

to say it was a very

18:49

late bloomer to addiction and an

18:52

overachiever, right? Same with like the

18:54

criminal life, right? Late bloomer, overachiever,

18:56

everything I do. So I was,

18:58

my addiction was school, like my

19:00

addiction was school and, and where

19:02

I could get good attention, right,

19:04

any attention, but good attention. And

19:07

I think, you know, I had,

19:09

yeah, at the time I had

19:11

two brothers, sister who, who were

19:13

always getting in trouble, it was

19:15

always chaos, it was always police

19:17

involved, you know, so to me,

19:20

my role was like, like, I'm

19:22

the good one. I'm

19:24

the one who gets straight A's,

19:26

I'm the perfect one at school,

19:28

and that was what I threw

19:30

myself into, and I'd love being

19:33

at school, because I didn't want

19:35

to be at home, you know.

19:37

And I thought, I will never

19:39

be like that. And you're good

19:41

at it. I was good at

19:43

it. Right. And, and, you know,

19:45

I started writing stories, short stories,

19:47

and I wrote some bad poetry

19:49

and junior high, like we all

19:52

do. You know, it felt good.

19:54

Yeah. Yeah. But the yeah.

19:56

go ahead. Go ahead. Go

19:58

ahead. Well, I was going

20:00

to say one of the

20:02

problems now, and of course,

20:04

like, it's always in the

20:06

rear view mirror that you

20:08

see these things, I think one

20:11

of the big problems in

20:13

assuming that role of the good

20:15

person, you know, or the

20:17

one who's like got it

20:19

all together, or this is my

20:21

role in my family and

20:23

my whatever is that when

20:26

you're not okay, you don't admit

20:28

it. Right. Yes, yes.

20:30

I mean that that was

20:33

my experience not with school

20:35

but in my marriage, you

20:37

know, I was I was

20:39

in this perfect marriage and

20:42

when I didn't need help

20:44

I would not admit it

20:46

or ask for it because

20:48

I didn't want to shatter

20:51

that illusion and I enjoyed

20:53

the being propped up, the

20:55

being on a pedestal. in

20:58

some way, even though I

21:00

wasn't as conscious of that.

21:03

So I absolutely get that.

21:05

We'll be right back. Do

21:09

you have a couple minutes to talk

21:12

about boobs? Okay, so I'm wearing a

21:14

new bra from the Fitz Everybody Collection

21:16

by Skims. And can I tell you

21:18

that it feels like I'm not wearing

21:20

anything? And my boobs look like they're

21:23

just naturally bomb. The Fitz Everybody bras

21:25

and undies are all buttery soft. I

21:27

mean buttery, sleek and smooth, no frills,

21:29

no bling, no nonsense. Once a year

21:32

I go on the hunt for a

21:34

no underwire bra that makes me look

21:36

great in a sweater or a t-shirt,

21:38

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21:40

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21:43

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21:45

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21:47

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21:56

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Boes is a register trademark

24:25

trademark of Corporation. I

24:28

want to take a skip now,

24:30

a big skip, to where, to

24:32

stay cation, where you are a

24:34

mama for, you are in a

24:37

relationship with, I forgot his name.

24:39

Do we know his name? DJ.

24:41

Thank you. Thank you. And he

24:44

is the father of your youngest

24:46

son. Yes. Yes. And this chapter

24:48

opens with you checking into a

24:50

hotel, a resort, with Little Spider-Man,

24:53

Pajama-Kaden, holding your hand. He's, you

24:55

know, because he's in a Spider-Man,

24:57

One-Zee, I'm assuming under five. Yeah,

25:00

he was somewhere there. This is

25:02

what I'm... He was three about

25:04

to turn four. Yeah. Yeah, and

25:07

so just tell us a little

25:09

bit about where your life was

25:11

at that point and what that

25:13

scene is about. Yeah, I will

25:16

tell you before I tell you

25:18

where my life was and what

25:20

that scene was about is that

25:23

that chapter, Stacation, was never in

25:25

my book proposal. It was not

25:27

in the first draft of my

25:29

book. It wasn't in the third

25:32

draft of my book. It was

25:34

a chapter that my editor Simon

25:36

Shester called me three days before

25:39

the books going into production and

25:41

said we need another chapter. And

25:43

I was like, what? And he's

25:45

like, we need a chapter of

25:48

you committing your crimes. And I

25:50

was like, oh, no. You know,

25:52

and it was interesting. I was

25:55

like, I. so honest in this

25:57

book, but I didn't want to

25:59

be that honest, right? Right. And

26:01

I knew, it's also the books

26:04

in the first person, which is

26:06

like, it's hard, I can't go

26:08

back in time and then jump,

26:11

you know, so well. But that

26:13

was really kind of the lowest

26:15

of the lows for me. And

26:17

I knew people were not going

26:20

to like me that much when

26:22

they read that chapter, but it

26:24

was honest. And you know, I

26:27

was at the end of an

26:29

11 month relapse. I'd had six

26:31

years in recovery prior to that.

26:33

And it was the end of

26:36

11 month relapse with my husband

26:38

DJ who I'd met in recovery

26:40

before we got married. And he

26:43

also was in a relapse. And,

26:45

you know, when you go from

26:47

husband wife to like partners in

26:50

crime or co-defendants, it's kind of

26:52

like the end of the romance,

26:54

I think it's fair to say.

26:56

But it's fair to say. But

26:59

But really I was frantically losing

27:01

control of my life. Like everything

27:03

was about to implode. I knew

27:05

that and I was desperately trying

27:08

to pretend, you know, I was

27:10

on vacation. Everything was okay. It

27:12

wasn't that my power was turned

27:14

off at home. It wasn't that,

27:16

you know, like, my crimes were

27:18

closing in on me and my

27:20

neighbors knew I had taken their

27:22

mail. And, you know, like, it

27:24

wasn't all of these things. I

27:26

was just like, I just need

27:28

to get through this moment. I

27:30

can fix everything tomorrow. is that

27:32

idea that tomorrow I could fix

27:34

everything. Today I can't stop doing

27:36

what I do, which I was

27:38

addicted to opiates, and I can't

27:41

stop that, but tomorrow I'll fix

27:43

it. As long as I get

27:45

through the day, it's just this

27:47

sort of miserable existence day to

27:49

day. Every day is so miserable

27:51

and predictable when you're in that

27:53

compulsion and that frame of mind.

27:55

And yet there's something comforting about

27:57

it because you know that every

27:59

day is going to be miserable,

28:01

right? Like there's a certain comfort

28:03

in the knowing how each miserable

28:05

day is going to be. yeah,

28:07

I checked into a hotel on

28:09

a stolen credit card with my

28:11

dog and my youngest son and

28:14

my older three were with my

28:16

first husband and it was just,

28:18

it's kind of a snapshot of

28:20

the insanity when you're in that

28:22

compulsive, obsessive, addiction place. Well, one

28:24

of the reasons, that's one of

28:26

the chapters I teach out of.

28:28

in my class and one of

28:30

the reasons I use that is

28:32

not just because it's so shocking

28:34

and like wow you you thought

28:36

you might like ease into this

28:38

book hello you're at the top

28:40

of the roller coaster when you

28:42

start but you are talking about

28:44

these criminal activities right that that

28:47

and this memoir so that you're

28:49

talking about in the first person

28:51

like you said committing these crimes

28:53

and we're still rooting for you

28:55

we are absolutely 100% rooting for you

28:58

because yeah you know you stole credit

29:00

cards but you bought snacks and you

29:02

know you're checking your kid into a

29:05

hotel and it's not like you know

29:07

you're just like amassing for coats at

29:09

home and have bentlies and stuff in

29:11

the driveway and you're there's something about

29:14

the way that you write that makes

29:16

sense and like I said it absolutely

29:18

of course it makes sense to me

29:21

because I was the same. But it

29:23

made sense to all these people in

29:25

my class who have no experience with

29:28

this, but they get it. And they,

29:30

by the end of that chapter, they're

29:32

also rooting for you. I don't like

29:34

the word master. I'm trying not to

29:37

use that word anymore. So I won't

29:39

say masterfully, but expertly you bring us

29:41

in. It's really, it's written in a

29:44

way. And I think it's a hard

29:46

thing to do to show us, the

29:48

humanity, but also, like you said, make

29:51

yourself the villain. Make yourself the villain.

29:53

right? Because you were you were not

29:55

giving yourself excuses but you were also

29:58

showing your own humanity. Yeah,

30:00

I think, you know, the, the,

30:02

the, the great thing about memoir,

30:04

which you know, because you teach

30:07

it, I don't have to tell

30:09

you this, is just that it

30:11

acts empathy in a way. And

30:13

we're, we're, like you said earlier,

30:16

you're not reading about something. You

30:18

are in that person's head making

30:20

their questionable life choices with them.

30:22

Like, you, there's already buy in

30:25

in in that first person. For

30:27

me, I did it, first person

30:29

present tense, which can be exhausting

30:31

for readers if you don't do

30:34

it, if you're not careful with

30:36

it, but it is a way

30:38

to create that urgency and that

30:40

sort of visceral feeling with the

30:42

present tense. And plus it's just

30:45

for writers, it's like candy, right,

30:47

to write first person present tense,

30:49

I think. But I wanted people

30:51

to. Make my choices with me

30:54

and you know like any book

30:56

whether it's fiction nonfiction memoir Voices

30:58

everything that you have to be

31:00

able to relate to the voice

31:03

So that's the detached my detached,

31:05

you know literary agent writing teacher

31:07

perspective on it But yeah I

31:09

tried to, you know,

31:12

I had some false starts in

31:14

those opening chapters. I have like

31:16

six chapters I just found that

31:18

I wrote for the book that

31:20

didn't make it in. Originally, the

31:23

first chapter of my book was

31:25

third person, past tense, and the,

31:27

you want to know what the

31:29

opening line when I was like,

31:31

I got a, my book sold

31:33

to Simon Shuster, I got to

31:36

write it. And I was going

31:38

to start back in my childhood

31:40

at 12 years old, the opening

31:42

line to my book originally, I'll,

31:44

Yeah, I was a laugh. This

31:47

is the opening line of my

31:49

book originally. I was the last

31:51

person to know I had big

31:53

breasts. I mean, I mean, there's

31:55

something there, but yeah, it's not

31:57

not true, but it's different. It's

32:00

very different. Like why not, right?

32:02

Why not? Hey, it's eye-catching, right?

32:04

You're probably going to go, like,

32:06

what about these big breasts? Let's

32:08

read some more about them. I'm

32:11

being conscious of our time. I

32:13

wish your story was not so

32:15

epic. It's so epic, but so

32:17

I don't want to spend much

32:19

time. Let's just, you go to

32:21

jail. I do. And this is

32:24

what I find really fascinating. I

32:26

mean, I, I love everything you

32:28

right about being in jail because

32:30

it's an unfamiliar experience to so

32:32

many people and you just make

32:34

it sound really accessible. And you

32:37

also let us know how easily

32:39

is very there but for the

32:41

grace of God go I kind

32:43

of like this isn't like other

32:45

people who end up there. This

32:48

was you. This is this woman

32:50

that we're relating to, this woman

32:52

that we would pass with no

32:54

problem in the supermarket and think

32:56

her life is fabulous. ended up

32:58

in jail. And this is the

33:01

thing that I keyed in on

33:03

and you and I have talked

33:05

about this before, but that you

33:07

started ghostwriting in jail, right? And

33:09

by that, what I mean is

33:12

for the other inmates who needed

33:14

to write a judge, needed to

33:16

write a boyfriend, needed a letter

33:18

for whatever, they came to you.

33:20

So tell me, tell me a

33:22

little bit about that and how

33:25

that came to be. I

33:28

think, yeah, and it was,

33:30

you know, it was 16

33:32

years ago this week, so

33:35

I know we're recording this

33:37

podcast whenever, but, you know,

33:39

I think it was probably,

33:41

you know, 16 years ago,

33:44

like the darkest moments of

33:46

my life, which people can

33:48

read about in the book,

33:51

was this week, and, and,

33:53

help me become me, me,

33:55

I would say. But

33:57

I think, you know, I started

33:59

once was arrested, I went to

34:01

jail for the first time, and

34:04

I, when I wasn't doing opiates,

34:06

I started writing again, right? Because,

34:08

like I said earlier, like, writing

34:10

originally was how I made sense

34:12

of the world. I had children,

34:14

I was in very unhappy marriage,

34:16

my husband was cheating on me.

34:18

You know, I took a pill

34:20

that was legally prescribed to me,

34:22

and suddenly I could pretend everything

34:24

was going to be okay. And

34:26

that one, you know, and one

34:28

became many, many more, more, you

34:30

know, so many that you would

34:32

think it would, no one could

34:34

survive that many per day that

34:36

I took. But when I was

34:38

in jail, I did not have

34:41

opiates anymore. So after the sort

34:43

of immediate horrible detox, how am

34:45

I going to make sense of

34:47

the world? I started writing again.

34:49

And the first thing I wrote

34:51

was kind of like this sort

34:53

of narrative poem about the women

34:55

around me. And I read it

34:57

to someone and they said read

34:59

it to everyone. And you know,

35:01

and I had an MFA and

35:03

creative writing before I went to

35:05

jail and everyone has their different

35:07

skills, right? And everybody's kind of

35:09

bartering and relating around their different

35:11

skill sets. There's amazing artists and

35:13

like furniture designers out of Tampax

35:15

boxes. There were, you know, very

35:18

savvy negotiators, you know, who maybe

35:20

had been drug dealers. Like everyone

35:22

had their skill set, their transferable

35:24

skills. And I started writing and

35:26

the women really loved someone writing

35:28

about them. Right.

35:30

And the writing just sort

35:33

of evolved, part of it

35:35

was just listening to everyone's

35:37

stories and then I'm kind

35:39

of a helper by nature.

35:41

Like if you tell me

35:43

your washing machine is broken,

35:45

like I will come there

35:47

and fix it. Like I

35:49

will personally try to fix

35:51

it. You know, like that's

35:53

kind of who I am.

35:56

And that is my secret.

35:58

Make a note of that.

36:00

weird. That's hilarious. Yeah. Okay.

36:02

Okay. We're totally off the

36:04

subject. However, so I started

36:06

listening to stories and, and,

36:08

oh, I'll write a letter

36:10

to the judge. Let's see

36:12

if we write a letter

36:14

as you, that you can

36:16

get put into long-term treatment

36:18

instead of prison. Let's see

36:21

if you can get a

36:23

pass. Let me, I can

36:25

break up with that guy.

36:27

I could seduce that guy.

36:29

Yeah. when outside of that

36:31

G-block I had no value.

36:33

The community hated me. I

36:35

was not a mom, I

36:37

was not a wife, I

36:39

was not a boss or

36:41

an employee. I was a

36:44

number in this space and

36:46

my writing skills came back

36:48

and that's what I did.

36:50

And, you know, honestly, I

36:52

will say that suburbia in

36:54

many ways is a lot

36:56

scarier than jail. Wait,

36:59

wait, talk about that. What does

37:01

that mean? I mean, there was

37:03

a certain amount of freedom. There's

37:06

certain freedom when you have, and

37:08

again, I'm just somebody who learns

37:10

things the hard way. Like, there's,

37:12

you know, I recommend an easier

37:14

way to learn how to meditate,

37:16

right? There's easier way, there's classes,

37:18

you do it online. You don't

37:20

have to have to have, lose

37:22

everything you have in life that

37:24

makes up who you are to

37:26

figure out who you are for

37:28

real. Right, but that's what was

37:30

my experience. Like, every identity, every

37:32

house of cards I had crafted

37:34

around me to show the world

37:36

who I am and get approval

37:39

from the world was demolished. I

37:41

imploded it. And there's, it was

37:43

terrified and horrible and hard hardest

37:45

thing I've ever had to do,

37:47

but it was so much freedom.

37:49

It was so good. I became

37:51

a better mother, a better writer,

37:53

better friend, a better human, because

37:55

of that. But again, there's

37:57

easier ways. Read a self-help book, people.

38:00

Right. Like really read it. I love you said

38:02

read it. I love I said

38:04

that though. get I though. I and

38:06

get that and it reminds me.

38:08

how I when I met Scott in I,

38:10

when I met Scott

38:13

in treatment, right? I needed to

38:15

be out there. I was was unencumbered

38:17

by who I needed to be out

38:19

there. I was not

38:21

trying to be anybody. I was not

38:23

pretending. I was absolutely my my worst self

38:25

and my best self my was my

38:27

most authentic. But I was

38:29

also, know, know, the self that I would

38:31

have never presented to anybody out there. I

38:33

was, it was just all out there. all out

38:35

And that's who he met and then fell

38:38

in love with. So I haven't ever had

38:40

to be anything. had to but that person with

38:42

him. with him. And a huge

38:44

sense of freedom in that, and I

38:46

would not have found that I would

38:48

of those circumstances. And what a gift

38:50

to have someone see you at

38:52

both your worst and your best. your worst

38:54

and your best, but also your worst,

38:56

and love you. fabulously because

38:59

of it. Yeah, good job, Scott. I I just

39:01

met Scott. That's why he's the

39:03

why he's the executive. Yeah. That's trying

39:05

to think what's him

39:07

exactly. He's now chief in my

39:09

book. in my book. He's moving. He's both.

39:11

Boyfriend. I as a producer, with the

39:14

know, I hope they just... but

39:16

you know, I moved the executive.

39:18

Thank you for all that. that. I I

39:20

think that's so valuable valuable and you know I know,

39:22

I know that the people who are

39:24

gonna listen to this, to this, the who

39:27

haven't read your book yet are gonna

39:29

go read it going they're gonna find this

39:31

interview to be a fantastic companion. for

39:33

the book itself because it's going to enrich certain

39:35

parts of it for them. because it's

39:37

next part I'd like to enrich for

39:39

them. of it for them. The next part

39:42

I'd like to enrich for them is you

39:44

I'm I'm kind of I'm

39:47

not gonna focus on this, not

39:49

because it's not important, not it's

39:51

so important and this is And

39:53

really is part. heartbreaking part of me,

39:56

of your memoir the places where

39:58

my heart just, like, like opened.

40:00

ached, where when you talked about

40:02

your kids, especially when you were

40:04

in jail, but even when you

40:06

got out and trying to get

40:08

your family back together and trying

40:10

to do that legally and emotionally,

40:13

to be physically in a place

40:15

where you could organize all that.

40:17

But I want to talk, I

40:19

want to, with the little time

40:21

we have left, I want to

40:23

talk about two things. I want

40:25

to talk about your life post-jail

40:27

as a convicted felon. and

40:30

what was surprising about that and

40:32

what was difficult about that. And

40:35

then I want to talk about,

40:37

I want to talk about the

40:39

book journey itself, like getting yourself,

40:42

you, it goes written or co-written,

40:44

these fantastic books that hit the

40:47

New York Times bestseller list and

40:49

stayed there and Oprah picks one,

40:51

but I want to talk about

40:54

your actual book journey. So first

40:56

let's talk about. because I know

40:58

this is still a huge part

41:01

of your life is post-jail being

41:03

a convicted felon and then what

41:06

what obstacles were put in your

41:08

way because of that and and

41:10

tell us a little bit about

41:13

how you overcame and are overcoming

41:15

them and if you have time

41:18

how you're helping others to do

41:20

it. So you know when I

41:22

was in jail I was you

41:25

know, despite my 32 felonies, I'm

41:27

kind of a rule follower, actually,

41:29

right? Like I do follow rules

41:32

and I was like, like, yeah,

41:34

32 felonies, just have to hit

41:37

that for a second because that's

41:39

like, like I said last time

41:41

we talked, that's too less than

41:44

our current president elect, but it's

41:46

still 32 felonies. That's a lot.

41:48

So, go, yeah, go ahead. Because

41:51

it's 25 more than Charles Manson.

41:55

which is bizarre to me like I've

41:57

never the only violence thing I've done

41:59

in my life is throw I had

42:02

a bloodice when I was 16, like

42:04

that's it. It was ice first. That's

42:06

the only violent moment I've had in

42:09

my life, was throwing a headlips. So,

42:11

but part of that was, yeah, I

42:13

mean, if you're weaponizing lettuce, that's the

42:16

go-to, just pro tip, pro tip, if

42:18

you're getting violent lettuce, lettuce, lettuce, you

42:20

know. Okay, but part of it was

42:23

that I pled guilty, and I would

42:25

have pled guilty to a thousand felonies

42:27

that meant that I would not lose

42:30

my children for it. So I pled

42:32

guilty to a lot of things I

42:34

didn't do. But it didn't matter, right?

42:37

It was, but it is a weird

42:39

number to have because on paper it

42:41

makes it seem like I'm the scariest

42:44

person in the county, right? I said

42:46

some serious street cred there that I

42:48

never wanted. Yeah. But I thought, okay,

42:51

I will do everything. I will follow

42:53

all the rules when I am incarcerated.

42:55

I will follow all the rules when

42:57

I get out on probation. And I

43:00

will be done. And what I didn't

43:02

realize was that you're never done. Sometimes

43:04

generations are not done. And it was

43:07

so hard to not go back to

43:09

jail for reasons that have nothing to

43:11

do with committing a crime or doing

43:14

a drug again. And it was almost

43:16

impossible not to go back. And there

43:18

were times where I was like, I'll

43:21

be safer there. I will be more

43:23

welcome there. I will be loved more

43:25

there. And that's with all

43:28

of the privilege it comes from

43:30

being a middle, I've said middle

43:32

age. Let's go middle class, white

43:34

woman, with a, kind of middle

43:36

age, with a, with a master's

43:38

degree before I was locked up.

43:41

And it was still almost impossible

43:43

to follow these rules and logical

43:45

consequences. And who can be in

43:47

three places at once? I mean,

43:49

I had a car that wouldn't

43:51

go uphill. So impossible. So there

43:53

were just so many things that

43:56

I had no idea about. And

43:58

the thing is I never thought

44:00

about incarcerated women until I began.

44:02

one like I'll admit that you

44:04

know in my my suburban cul-de-sac

44:06

mom it was you know I

44:08

went to book club I was

44:11

on the PTA I went to

44:13

school fundraisers it was not it

44:15

was never in my consciousness right

44:17

so part of my work since

44:19

then is is trying to get

44:21

people to care because 80% of

44:23

women in jail are mothers with

44:26

minor children you if you care

44:28

about foster children you have to

44:30

care about incarcerated women It's the

44:32

fastest growing incarcerated population, 750% increase,

44:34

and 100% of the women have

44:36

trauma, histories of either sexual violence,

44:39

childhood abuse, domestic violence, you know,

44:41

and they're in this system that

44:43

was built for men, it's run

44:45

by men, it's traumatizing, retrigging every

44:47

single day, and And because it

44:49

is still the smallest population, people

44:51

don't really care. The institutions don't

44:54

care. So part of my work,

44:56

because I knew for a little

44:58

bit, I was going to have

45:00

a big microphone. So I launched

45:02

a nonprofit about a month before

45:04

the book got released. And my

45:06

job has been to make people

45:09

care because generations will pay. You

45:11

know, like the idea over the

45:13

years where I could write a

45:15

book for two Stanford professors, it

45:17

became a number one New York

45:19

Times best-seller. but because I had

45:21

a criminal record I couldn't homeschool

45:24

my child. Like it's just an

45:26

illogical consequence, right? It's just like

45:28

these things we put up all

45:30

these barriers and we really, it

45:32

seems like from the actions in

45:34

the weird rules and barriers that

45:37

we want people to pay for

45:39

a lifetime. Like we, oh we

45:41

believe in rehabilitation, but not really.

45:44

You know, and women and men are

45:46

treated very differently in the system. My

45:48

ex-husband slash codefendant was let out probate

45:50

and he didn't do, he was not

45:52

a rule follower, you know, he had

45:54

a very different trajectory and path than

45:56

I did. It took him a lot

45:58

of years to kind of get on

46:00

the straight and narrow. And he was

46:02

let out of probation years before me,

46:04

even after getting in trouble, getting put

46:06

back in jail, relapsing. He didn't have

46:08

to pay back our joint restitution. He

46:10

had his record automatically expunged, like eight

46:13

years ago. I just had a hearing

46:15

two weeks ago to get my record

46:17

expunged, which I finally did. Whoa,

46:20

yeah. Because I was, you know,

46:22

I mentioned this to you before,

46:24

I was just getting angry or

46:27

angry that I couldn't go to

46:29

Canada. Like, I have no plans

46:31

to go, but it's just like,

46:33

again, it's an illogical consequence. I'm

46:35

not going to hurt you. We

46:38

know, right. So, but it's all

46:40

these ways that we want to

46:42

make sure people don't forget they're

46:44

the worst thing they've ever done.

46:47

You know, and I just don't

46:49

believe that. Thank you for all

46:51

that. Gosh, I mean, every time

46:53

you talk about this, one, I

46:56

am inspired to do something and

46:58

I need to make good on

47:00

that inspiration. So I will. We'll

47:02

be right back. Subtle

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48:30

Thank you, Proud. Move on to the Lion

48:32

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48:35

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today. But

49:07

I was really struck in the

49:09

book by this, because you said

49:12

something about you couldn't be two

49:14

places at once, and I might

49:16

butcher this, but I remember you

49:19

needing to like report in to

49:21

your parole officer, but you also

49:23

had to have a job, but

49:26

you also need to be able

49:28

to leave that job at a

49:30

moment's notice when they called you

49:32

in, and you didn't have transportation.

49:35

because you hadn't made enough money

49:37

from the job to buy a

49:39

vehicle. So you were kind of

49:42

at the mercy of however you

49:44

could get there. And it seemed

49:46

like that can't be real. It's

49:48

so real because, you know, it

49:51

was in the same county, three

49:53

different agencies in the same county,

49:55

that were all required me to

49:58

drug test. That's

50:00

what it was. Yeah. Yeah. So

50:02

on any given day, I would

50:04

have to leave a job, assuming

50:06

I can get a job with

50:08

a criminal record, it has to

50:10

be a job that will let

50:12

me, because you're kind of starting

50:14

to entry level again now, right?

50:16

Up to three times a day

50:18

on a moment's notice. Like, that's

50:20

impossible for anyone. Like, you could

50:22

be the, you know, you could

50:24

be the CFO of somewhere that

50:26

might be an impossible task to

50:28

have to be able to be

50:30

able to do that. bureaucracy and

50:32

a lot of there's no motivation

50:34

to fix it because people don't

50:36

really care in the system you

50:38

know and it's it's geared towards

50:40

punishment. Yeah yeah and and the

50:42

the disparity of how women are

50:44

treated versus men was also really

50:47

shocking to me and I didn't

50:49

know any of that I didn't

50:51

know any of the statistics around

50:53

mothers and incarcerated women and I

50:55

love that you just said, if

50:57

you care about foster children, you

50:59

have to care about incarcerated women.

51:01

There's going to be, in the

51:03

show notes, the Gemma Project, you

51:05

know, obviously your website, which allows

51:07

you to navigate and figure out

51:09

how you can help, how one

51:11

can help or be a part

51:13

of this. So I'm going to

51:15

leave it there, but I don't

51:17

want to leave it there for

51:19

our listeners. I don't want you

51:21

to forget. I want you to

51:23

come back. I want you to

51:25

look in those show notes. I

51:27

want you to click on the

51:29

link. I promised to do the

51:31

same. So we'll be doing that

51:33

together. But I want to shift

51:35

now to your book journey because,

51:37

you know, skipping ahead and you'll

51:39

read all this in the book.

51:41

if you haven't already read it,

51:43

but you do these, you know,

51:45

you co-write these books, these really

51:47

big books, you have this, this,

51:49

this, it's not lucky, I mean,

51:51

because I don't know if I

51:53

purely believe in luck, but you're

51:55

really fortunate. You have this really,

51:57

you have a series of really

51:59

fortunate events, you know, and, you

52:01

know, each one was a sigh

52:03

of relief from me. Like, oh,

52:05

there she is with her kids.

52:07

Oh, good. You know, there she

52:09

is at that job. Oh, good.

52:11

Like, they know now that she's

52:13

a felon and they're letting her

52:15

stay, like, and then letting you,

52:17

like, like, run the bookkeeping, which

52:19

I loved, like, you had full

52:21

access, that's, and that's in there,

52:24

but I want to talk about

52:26

the many lives of the many

52:28

lives of Mama Love, And

52:30

how it came to be and how

52:32

it came to be the Oprah's book

52:34

club pick for March of 2024. Yeah.

52:36

Fellas say, yeah, the really quickly, because

52:39

I know time is limited, you know,

52:41

I answered a Craigslist ad for a

52:43

part-time personal assistant at a literary agency.

52:45

It was five hours a week, $20

52:48

an hour, and I was like, that

52:50

was survival. I was like, yes, if

52:52

I can get that. That's hope, you

52:54

know. I left that agency 13 years

52:57

later as CEO, right? But for 11

52:59

years, for 11 years, you know, I

53:01

was collaborative writing, goes writing for the

53:03

authors we represented our agency and we

53:05

happened to represent Archbishop Desmond Tutu. So

53:08

I got to work on the book

53:10

of forgiving with him. did a book

53:12

with a Dalai Lama, so I got

53:14

to go to India, like these crazy

53:17

things. But the whole time I was

53:19

keeping my past a secret. I was

53:21

so afraid that someone would Google me.

53:23

I would so afraid that our authors

53:26

would find out about my past and

53:28

it would like hurt the company, hurt

53:30

the business, hurt the person who gave

53:32

me a chance. And that's a really

53:34

icing way to be. Yeah. I just,

53:37

when you said someone would Google you,

53:39

I forgot to mention the article. that

53:41

labeled you as the neighbor from hell.

53:43

Yes. So there was this was out

53:46

there. This is an article. Yeah, that

53:48

legitimate fear of someone Googling me and

53:50

yes. And you know. talked about the

53:52

thing. Yeah, and I really internalize that,

53:54

not only that article, but all of

53:57

the mean comments that people wrote in.

53:59

So when I honestly mailed to me,

54:01

you know, hundreds of comments into the

54:03

jail, to make sure I would read

54:06

them. And I was just like saying

54:08

horrible things about me. And I would,

54:10

you know, all of these things. And

54:12

so I internalized that for a long

54:15

time. And I had so much shame

54:17

and I was in fear. And, you

54:19

know, the way I describe it is

54:21

like, here's the truth, which is, here's

54:23

the truth train, I don't know if

54:26

you can see my hand, the truth

54:28

train, and it's gonna, it's, it's, it's

54:30

chugging along because the truth always comes

54:32

out, and here's my, my resume of

54:35

goodness that I'm doing, like, here's how

54:37

I'm good adjacent. Look, the Dalai Lama

54:39

said this about me, Nelson Mandela thanked

54:41

me to me to books, so I

54:43

was like building my good, I would

54:46

be able to prove my goodness, I

54:48

would be able to defend myself, my

54:50

fundamental goodness to the world. Like this

54:52

is, this is how I was operating

54:55

for over a decade. And I was

54:57

so afraid to make friends because what

54:59

if they run away if they find

55:01

on my pass and I can't really

55:04

make friends if I'm not reeling myself.

55:06

So it's a very isolating thing. And

55:08

I always wanted to write a book

55:11

since I was, you know, in that

55:13

closet reading as a kid, you know,

55:15

where I'd hide out and read. You

55:17

know, I certainly didn't think this would

55:20

be the first book I wrote, you

55:22

know, because no one as a kid

55:24

is like, dear diary. I wasn't writing

55:26

my bad poetry and then saying, dear

55:29

diary, I hope I can grow up

55:31

and be an addict or have more

55:33

hate me or go to jet. Like,

55:35

that's not a thing any of us

55:38

wish for. said out loud the thing

55:40

I was so afraid people would find

55:42

out and the feeling I had from

55:44

saying I got there and said like

55:46

I was once the neighbor from hell

55:49

I was once called the neighbor from

55:51

hell but now I'm going to tell

55:53

you about some other people I had

55:55

been and and it was really this

55:58

sort of for myself saying that I

56:00

was really making, creating a whole identity

56:02

out of the worst version of myself.

56:04

And I was judging myself and assuming

56:07

everyone else was. I had no compassion,

56:09

so I assumed everyone else. I had

56:11

no self forgiveness, so I assumed everyone

56:13

else. Some people did. But mostly I

56:16

was the harshest one. And it's a

56:18

very lonely existence. You know, so I

56:20

said the thing out loud on a

56:22

stage and, you know, the crazy thing

56:24

about being vulnerable is like, you're

56:27

afraid people are going to run screaming

56:29

from the room when they see your

56:31

worst cell, but they run closer to

56:34

you. And then they say, oh, you're

56:36

safe. No, I can tell you all

56:38

my secret things. And so the feeling

56:40

I had after giving that talk, as

56:42

terrifying as it was, was better than

56:45

any drug ever taken. And I was

56:47

like, okay, this can help people. And

56:49

so I decided to do the book,

56:51

the book sold, and And it came

56:54

out, and I was about six months

56:56

postbook launch, like last, came out August

56:58

of 2023 originally, and it was at

57:00

the end of the year, and I

57:02

was like, wow, okay, it's great. So

57:05

I'm some end of your list. People

57:07

are liking it, but it didn't become

57:09

a New York Times bestseller, and Oprah

57:11

didn't pick it like she did another

57:13

book I co-wrote. And I remember having

57:16

this sort of, you know, moment where

57:18

I said, am I just better at

57:20

being other people than being me? Like

57:23

am I just better at being

57:25

other people in books than being

57:28

me? And that was a hard

57:30

thing. And I wallowed for a

57:32

couple days and then I said,

57:34

no, I'm really not someone who's

57:37

going to wallow. So I'm going

57:39

to now do what you can

57:41

call it magical thinking, delusional thinking,

57:43

manifesting, you know, it's just daydreaming.

57:46

But I do this thing where I

57:48

daydream really delulu thinks, right? Like I

57:51

just imagine. So I was like, I

57:53

need to manifest Oprah. I'm going

57:55

to imagine her getting my book. Now

57:57

we all know Oprah gets textbooks

57:59

at publication time now. This is six

58:02

months. launch, but I'm just imagining

58:04

it. I'm scripting in my head. I've

58:06

had tons of imagining conversations with her

58:08

my whole life. So I was

58:10

just like, oh, hey, it's me again,

58:13

you know, doing this thing. And

58:15

it was in January and I was

58:17

on a zoom and she pops into

58:19

the zoom to tell me my

58:21

books been picked. And not only that,

58:24

she pops in to say, Laura,

58:26

I found your book in my. you

58:28

know, private residence in Hawaii, nobody on

58:30

my staff knows how it got

58:32

there. I know in Hawaii, and no

58:35

one knows how it got here

58:37

because there's a whole process, you know,

58:39

it's go through publicists or publisher and

58:41

it goes to the, you know,

58:43

the editor of her book, things. She's

58:46

like, I asked everyone, no one

58:48

knows how it got here. She also

58:50

the times that I didn't scribe

58:52

it to her. I was like, I

58:54

never inscribed a book to you, Oprah.

58:57

Like, I don't know how it

58:59

got there. And wait, I'm in this

59:01

book. And I said, well, I

59:03

did, there is a chapter where you're

59:05

in it because it was, you know,

59:08

and I thought by doing that,

59:10

maybe you could never pick it because,

59:12

but it was a really powerful

59:14

story in the arc of learning about

59:16

power and what real power is. And

59:19

so yeah, so that was. crazy.

59:21

And then on CBS News, they're all

59:23

in the studio, Gail King, and

59:25

the reporters, like, how did the book

59:27

get there? That I, I felt guilty.

59:30

I was like, I didn't break

59:32

into our house. You know, like, I

59:34

was all triggered up, like, be

59:36

wrongly accused. I was like, I didn't

59:38

break it up, like, be wrongly

59:40

accused. I was like, I didn't break,

59:43

and my older boys are just naked,

59:45

like, I didn't do anything wrong,

59:47

like, like, I don't know anything wrong,

59:50

like, like, like, like, like, I

59:52

don't know, I don't know, I don't

59:54

know, It was amazing. And then, you

59:56

know, of course, that creates a

59:58

spotlight. And she and I went to

1:00:01

the biggest, the largest women's prison

1:00:03

in California and did book club there,

1:00:05

which is like my favorite book club

1:00:07

I've done. And it really stopped.

1:00:09

Chachila. Yeah. And, you know, that is

1:00:12

the first time hardback books have

1:00:14

been allowed in a prison. And the

1:00:16

warden there is having all of the

1:00:18

correctional officers and the inmates read

1:00:20

it. So I've been there twice, and

1:00:23

I'm going to go back again.

1:00:25

Simon, she's donated, 800 books there, you

1:00:27

know. And I was like, hey,

1:00:29

nobody used it as a weapon because

1:00:31

this will never happen again. Right. This

1:00:34

is why they don't allow hard

1:00:36

cover because they can be weaponized. Molly

1:00:38

walked anyone with a book. There's

1:00:40

like other things, right? It's a silly

1:00:42

way to control reading. But, but, you

1:00:45

know, it's just to kind of

1:00:47

go back what you said at the

1:00:49

beginning about people with no of

1:00:51

similar experiences like your students seeing themselves

1:00:53

in my book, the women in Chauchila

1:00:56

also saw themselves in my book.

1:00:58

And it meant so much that they

1:01:00

could see themselves in a book.

1:01:02

And some of my closest readers ever,

1:01:04

like some of the most, you know,

1:01:07

really, really close readers, really powerful

1:01:09

conversations around that, how do you have

1:01:11

hope? How do you keep imagining,

1:01:13

how do you have a vision for

1:01:15

the future? When all experiences and

1:01:17

experiences don't, don't allow for that. How

1:01:20

do you do that anyway? You know,

1:01:22

and I'm very bad at Arts

1:01:24

and Crafts. I was like, forget the

1:01:26

vision boards. Just. Think of a

1:01:28

whiteboard in your mind. You know, like

1:01:31

no one can lock up your imagination,

1:01:33

your creativity, your hope, your, you

1:01:35

know, love, all of those things. And,

1:01:37

and. How powerful because you are

1:01:39

still getting through stuff. You know, you're

1:01:42

talking about 16 years later and you

1:01:44

have just, you know, triumphantly expunged

1:01:46

your record, right? But you've been, this

1:01:48

is something you've been working toward.

1:01:50

Things are still happening in your life

1:01:53

that could be considered setbacks. And yet

1:01:55

here you are in Hawaii, you

1:01:57

know, writing, are you still writing? I'm

1:02:00

writing a new book. I'm writing a

1:02:02

new book. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I

1:02:04

got a new fiction agent and I'm

1:02:07

writing a novel because that is one

1:02:09

of the things on my, you know,

1:02:11

if I'm on my deathbed, what will

1:02:13

I regret? That's kind of how I

1:02:15

see things. A little morbid. I'm not

1:02:17

planning to be my deathbed for decades,

1:02:20

but I'm very aware of what, like

1:02:22

what, I always have delusional goals, right?

1:02:24

That's, that's, you know, there's this thing,

1:02:26

this phrase I learned from reading some

1:02:28

books while I was locked up and

1:02:31

there was this phrase, pain pushes and

1:02:33

television poles. And so it's just really

1:02:35

like, if ever got a tattoo with

1:02:37

words, I would do that. But it

1:02:39

is this thing where how much in

1:02:41

my life would I just let pain

1:02:44

push me? like decades

1:02:46

and decades pain pushing me pain reacting

1:02:48

to that pain versus like having a

1:02:50

vision that pulls me right even if

1:02:52

it's even if it's you know I'm

1:02:54

gonna play in the NBA I never

1:02:57

will but if that's my vision I'm

1:02:59

gonna go for it I'm gonna imagine

1:03:01

it you know so so I mean

1:03:03

that's a little extreme love but um

1:03:06

But what am I regret to be if I

1:03:08

go out a novel? You know, like fiction writing

1:03:10

is one I think I'm actually good at. And

1:03:12

I just haven't done it since I got my

1:03:15

MFA in it. So I'm very excited to be

1:03:17

working on that here. I cannot wait to read

1:03:19

it. I can't wait to read it. And how

1:03:21

did I do? How are we on time? We're

1:03:23

at the end, right? We're at the end, yeah.

1:03:26

We're at the end, yeah. Where we're at. I

1:03:28

mean. I mean. When

1:03:31

you go follow Laura on Instagram,

1:03:33

you will see that two of

1:03:35

your sons have gotten married this

1:03:37

year. Is that right? Yes. Two

1:03:40

of your sons got married. You

1:03:42

brought your youngest to college here

1:03:44

in California. Life is lifing hard.

1:03:46

Twenty-twfour. have and I love how

1:03:49

you keep right-sizing your life. Like

1:03:51

you whatever comes up and like

1:03:53

I said you were still dealing

1:03:55

with like legal stuff and still

1:03:58

dealing with the results of having

1:04:00

been in jail and having to

1:04:02

I know that there is like

1:04:04

a lot of money involved you

1:04:07

called your restitution right that had

1:04:09

to be paid and all of

1:04:11

that stuff and and I see

1:04:14

you you know in this very

1:04:16

grateful way looking at what reality

1:04:18

is and right-sizing your life around

1:04:20

it but still giving yourself these

1:04:23

gifts right like selling your house

1:04:25

but going to this place that

1:04:27

you've always dreamed of being and

1:04:29

you said in the beginning I

1:04:32

don't know if we recorded this

1:04:34

but you said you're trying it

1:04:36

on basically you're gonna you're gonna

1:04:38

see how it goes for you

1:04:41

there yeah I'm and it's just

1:04:43

so inspiring I'm you know there's

1:04:45

a feel I want to have

1:04:48

in my life in my life

1:04:50

Like there's a way I want

1:04:52

my days to feel and so

1:04:54

I'm gonna see how it feels,

1:04:57

right? Yes. And you know, I

1:04:59

just, it's just going into production

1:05:01

now, a bonus chapter for the

1:05:03

paperback that comes out February 4th,

1:05:06

as Simon Shuster had me right,

1:05:08

because life keeps on life, you

1:05:10

know, I could have, the chapter

1:05:12

title would give you a previous

1:05:15

called Stand By Me. But it

1:05:17

could have been called death divorce

1:05:19

and Oprah also. Like that was

1:05:21

my alternate time. That was the

1:05:24

one I was rooting for. Yeah.

1:05:26

But, but yeah, my editor, you

1:05:28

know, my editor made me cut

1:05:31

out a lot of it. But,

1:05:33

but you know, it was 2024

1:05:35

came in hot that I in

1:05:37

ways I wasn't prepared for, but

1:05:40

my coping skills. That's how you

1:05:42

know. Like, oh, wow. I actually

1:05:44

have changed. It's not like, like,

1:05:46

like, It's not just something we

1:05:49

talk about, but like what did

1:05:51

I do when life got hard,

1:05:53

when life life, like I reached

1:05:55

out to people, I asked for

1:05:58

help. I talked about every random

1:06:00

feeling I've ever had would be

1:06:02

for had no language or feelings,

1:06:05

you know, and so much easier

1:06:07

to get through things with other

1:06:09

people. Like my priorities now are

1:06:11

like having really deep, real friendships

1:06:14

and community. I mean, maybe I'll

1:06:16

get an executive boyfriend someday. We

1:06:18

don't know, but, but. We're gonna,

1:06:20

we're gonna magically think it for

1:06:23

you. Yeah, what did you call

1:06:25

it? Yeah, she said magical thinking,

1:06:27

manage, she had a lot of.

1:06:29

Yeah, all of that. All of

1:06:32

that. Well, you have made this,

1:06:34

this bestie of yours is dream

1:06:36

come true by, by coming on

1:06:38

today. And, you know, I, I

1:06:41

always write copious notes for my

1:06:43

guests. And I send them to

1:06:45

Scott before the interview so that

1:06:48

he can look them over. And

1:06:50

as your interview started, he's like,

1:06:52

where are the notes? I'm like,

1:06:54

I didn't write me. I know

1:06:57

her. Like, oh, thank you. We're

1:06:59

just going to chop it up.

1:07:01

You know, I thought if I

1:07:03

had notes, I would get stuck

1:07:06

on too many things that I

1:07:08

wanted, and I just wanted it

1:07:10

to be a conversation. And I

1:07:12

knew the big areas that I

1:07:15

want it to cover. I really

1:07:17

can't thank you enough. I'm so

1:07:19

grateful for our friendship. I'm grateful

1:07:22

for you. I'm grateful for this

1:07:24

book. And I love the

1:07:26

cover, by the way. I know we talked about that

1:07:28

once, but the cover is just so dope. And it's

1:07:30

a bird. Yeah. It's a bird here. And I cannot

1:07:32

wait to read the new one. And I want to

1:07:35

see that thing that the writing that you were going

1:07:37

to send to me, that would be for our eyes

1:07:39

only. Was that the, was that the, my fall start

1:07:41

chapters? Yeah. I was like, yeah, the fall start chapters.

1:07:43

I want to see those. Yeah. Yeah, I have those.

1:07:46

And I want to say thank you because you know

1:07:48

you've you've. a lot of a

1:07:50

tour events tour there to be

1:07:52

in conversation with me and

1:07:54

doing this me and doing this and,

1:07:57

know know, me like a like a

1:07:59

bestie, right? Which is is how I

1:08:01

have you in my phone

1:08:03

before we even met we'd even

1:08:05

see our was like, I'll see our bestie.

1:08:08

And I like she's gonna shut it.

1:08:10

weird or it'll be fine

1:08:12

gonna either think I'm it be fine. you

1:08:14

know I'm I'm excited to

1:08:16

read your new book and

1:08:19

and you and support you

1:08:21

because that's what best friends

1:08:23

do friends what That's you I'm best

1:08:25

right that's do. I'm upset. That's right. That's

1:08:27

right. Yeah, we're going to carry it. Thank you,

1:08:29

you you you so much you. Thank

1:08:32

you. you you Thank you. Thank you

1:08:34

so much for listening the

1:08:36

only one in the room

1:08:38

is produced by the by and

1:08:40

stellar and Stellar, bean and executively

1:08:43

produced by the man the

1:08:45

myth the magic Myth, The Magic,

1:08:47

who I call I Call Hunan. Hey,

1:08:49

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1:08:51

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1:08:56

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One that you'd like to share that

1:09:19

you'd like send it to the only

1:09:21

one pod the Only One pod at gmail.com. What's

1:09:41

up everyone it's

1:09:43

Noah Daniels hey y

1:09:45

'all one y'all, I'm Jay Jay.

1:09:47

guys it's Kat. We're your host to

1:09:49

the Real Haunting's who share

1:09:52

their bring on guests stories

1:09:54

and supernatural experiences ghost

1:09:56

on to the

1:09:58

trailer I've been warned

1:10:00

to not tell I

1:10:02

think because of the way it ends,

1:10:04

it's okay to tell this story. Because

1:10:06

some people say that with certain entities

1:10:08

to like speak of them or talk

1:10:11

about them or in any way like

1:10:13

portray them as powerful. will attract them

1:10:15

to other people. The creepiest thing about

1:10:17

it to me is a lot of

1:10:19

times it would wait for me to

1:10:21

notice it. Like, it would just lay

1:10:23

its arm out like this, and then

1:10:25

I'd be like, where is it? Where

1:10:27

is it? And then I'd see it,

1:10:29

and then it would just slitter back.

1:10:32

For more information on the Real Haunting

1:10:34

Drill Ghost Stories podcast, make sure you

1:10:36

check out real.fam to learn more about

1:10:38

our podcast and many other amazing podcasts.

1:10:42

Hi, this is Rob Benedict. And I am

1:10:44

Richard Spate. We were both on a little

1:10:46

show you might know called Supernatural. It had

1:10:48

a pretty good run. 15 seasons, 327 episodes.

1:10:51

And though we have seen, of course, every

1:10:53

episode many times, we figured, hey, now that

1:10:55

we're wrapped... Let's watch it all again. And

1:10:57

we can't do that alone. So we're inviting

1:10:59

the cast and crew that made the show

1:11:02

along for the ride. We've got writers, producers,

1:11:04

composers, directors, and we'll of course have some

1:11:06

actors on as well, including some certain guys

1:11:08

that played some certain pretty iconic brothers. It

1:11:10

was kind of a little bit of a

1:11:13

left field choice in the best way possible.

1:11:15

The note from Kripki was, he's great, we

1:11:17

love him, but we're looking for like a

1:11:19

really intelligent decovny type. With 15 seasons to

1:11:21

explore, it's going to be the road trip

1:11:24

of several lifetimes. So please join us and

1:11:26

subscribe to Supernatural, then and now. Ladies and

1:11:28

gentlemen. What are you doing? What do you

1:11:30

mean? I'm making the promo? Just keep it

1:11:32

simple. Just say, hey, we're the Bravo Bros.

1:11:35

Two guys that talk about Bravo. Ladies and

1:11:37

gentlemen, boys and girls, we're the Bravo Bros.

1:11:39

Oh, dude. Stop at the Voice. Just keep

1:11:41

it simple. I've seen promos on... this is

1:11:43

how you get the

1:11:45

fans and engage This

1:11:48

is how you get

1:11:50

listeners we're trying to

1:11:52

get listeners here get we

1:11:54

just say oh we're

1:11:56

two just say, about dudes

1:11:59

are gonna get tired

1:12:01

of it already we

1:12:03

need some gonna get tired of

1:12:05

right then fine let's

1:12:07

try to do it

1:12:10

with your voice try to do

1:12:12

it with your voice. good job

1:12:14

job.