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1:01

Learn more at Hello fresh.com. My

1:13

name is Scott Slaughter. I am

1:15

the welcome to Scott Talks. This

1:17

is part of the only one

1:19

in the room podcast Today we

1:22

have Megan Jarvis and we're talking

1:24

about grief and Funny enough or

1:26

named. I'm the executive boyfriend and

1:28

now you're the chief of grief.

1:31

I love it. So and and

1:33

Megan is let's go back and

1:35

I'll just give you a little

1:37

update On Megan, Megan is a

1:39

trauma-trained clinical psychotherapist, an author, a

1:42

podcast host, a TEDx speaker two

1:44

times. She has a couple master's

1:47

degrees in child study and social

1:49

work. She spent the last couple

1:51

decades studying all kinds of cool

1:54

stuff, integrative nutrition, Reiki, sensor psychotherapy

1:56

to name a few, and you

1:58

know, one of things I think

2:01

I love the most about you

2:03

is outside of all of that.

2:05

Megan, you talk about what you

2:07

know from your personal space, which

2:09

I think, you know, we interview

2:12

a lot of people and a

2:14

lot of people have a lot

2:16

of approaches of telling us what

2:18

they know, but not as many

2:20

people tell us what they know

2:22

about. from their own experience so

2:25

much. And I think that's a

2:27

great deal of humility and trust

2:29

that your experience is going to

2:31

impact people and connect with people

2:33

in a way that needs to

2:36

as opposed to the way you

2:38

want to. I think, you know,

2:40

I know grief is just a

2:42

crazy thing. You told a story

2:44

to Laura about a young person

2:46

that had died around nine years

2:49

old. Chris, I think his name

2:51

was. Yeah, he was 16. I

2:53

was nine when he died. Yeah,

2:55

yeah, but it impacted you and

2:57

it's crazy. Like, you know, I

3:00

want to say this as sort

3:02

of a disclaimer, but grief is

3:04

a very personal thing, right? So

3:06

I don't want to ever pretend

3:08

like my grief is your grief

3:10

or anybody has an experience, but

3:13

I was about, I think I

3:15

was in third grade, I had

3:17

this friend that I, a girl

3:19

that I would meet every day

3:21

after school at a babysitter's house.

3:24

And I remember one day she

3:26

didn't show up. She died. She

3:28

got strangled in a roast room.

3:30

Oh my God. Right. Yeah. Oh

3:32

God. After Chris died you were

3:34

then a child who knew that

3:37

children died Yeah, and it was

3:39

like you had adopted this Way

3:41

of coping with life with that

3:43

knowledge and I realized because I

3:45

went to school the next few

3:47

days And I could not go

3:50

I couldn't get through a class

3:52

without crying and everybody was like

3:54

what's wrong with you? And I

3:56

started doing those coping skills that

3:58

you talked about like making up

4:01

things, avoiding the conversation, displacing my

4:03

emotions into other things. And I

4:05

started thinking about like, wow, how

4:07

much of that event shaped who

4:09

I am today as a man?

4:11

Yeah, correct. And this is your

4:14

world, right? This is what you

4:16

do for people. It's helped them

4:18

to understand in a society that

4:20

doesn't talk much about grief or

4:22

loss or death. how these things

4:25

can impact you. And maybe you

4:27

could follow up a little bit

4:29

with me. I mean, you could

4:31

see obviously I'm still touched by

4:33

this moment. Yeah, you know, I

4:35

mean, so trauma, we think of

4:38

trauma in the trauma world as

4:40

like a bad event, but you

4:42

know, so COVID was a trauma,

4:44

but not everybody is traumatized by

4:46

a bad event. Traumatized is like

4:49

the imprint that it leaves behind.

4:51

But children are often traumatized by

4:53

a death because our instinctive responses

4:55

to something bad are to fight

4:57

and fight, fight and flee, but

4:59

you can't fight or flee from

5:02

grief. So you end up in

5:04

sort of a freeze, like you

5:06

just have to absorb what's happening.

5:08

And that is the spot where

5:10

we often then get the imprint,

5:13

right, where it just sort of

5:15

begins to tell us a story

5:17

about our life that was different

5:19

than. the minute before the bad

5:21

thing that happened. And the thing

5:23

with kids is they can only

5:26

navigate based on their intellect in

5:28

that moment. So even though, and

5:30

I didn't write a lot about

5:32

this in the book because I

5:34

didn't want to hurt the other

5:36

people that were there, I felt

5:39

like it was my fault that

5:41

Chris died. Like I hadn't kept

5:43

my eye on him. You don't

5:45

watch a 16-year-old swimming when you're

5:47

nine. But children without the support

5:50

of a bigger brain that can

5:52

give more explanation will have to

5:54

come up with their own ideas.

5:56

ideas are gonna be super limited

5:58

about how to navigate it but

6:00

also what does it mean? You

6:03

know so like I just was

6:05

I was like really angry that

6:07

other kids were walking around dumb

6:09

that they thought their parents kept

6:11

them safe and I was like

6:14

it doesn't matter if your dad

6:16

could fight his dad like every

6:18

there everybody's gonna die your dad

6:20

can't do anything about it. And

6:22

I know this from my child's

6:24

study experience. There's a period of

6:27

time where you kind of naturally

6:29

grow into that understanding, and there's

6:31

a period of time where that's

6:33

too much for you to know.

6:35

And nine or 10 is right

6:38

about when you start learning those

6:40

things and reading those things, but

6:42

as a teacher... you know you

6:44

read Charlotte's web and then you

6:46

talk to the kids about what

6:48

does it mean that the spider

6:51

dies and you process the feelings

6:53

and you talk you and I

6:55

didn't have that experience. No it

6:57

was kind of jammed down my

6:59

jammed into my life in a

7:02

way that I mean honestly you

7:04

know I recall just years of

7:06

thinking about that loss and for

7:08

me it wasn't I didn't feel

7:10

it necessarily the cause of it

7:12

but the idea of never seeing

7:15

her again and sort of I

7:17

almost feel like she was the

7:19

first person I loved first girl

7:21

that I loved and I had

7:23

suffered a loss that nobody could

7:26

understand and I felt like a

7:28

child like nobody would understand because

7:30

I was such a young person

7:32

you know but kids do just

7:34

love you know they don't have

7:36

like gradients and they don't protect

7:39

themselves they do just Love each

7:41

other. I think that's why when

7:43

you go to like summer camp

7:45

you can make like your best

7:47

friend because You know it's in

7:49

six weeks or three weeks because

7:52

we don't have all the complications

7:54

in some in some way and

7:56

So look I'm not your therapist,

7:58

but if I was I was

8:00

thinking Yeah, I was thinking before

8:03

this I needed a therapy from

8:05

you. Right. But you can go

8:07

back to that little boy who

8:09

didn't get a chance to say

8:11

goodbye and offer him the chance

8:13

to say goodbye. Well that's a

8:16

lot of the grief work that

8:18

I do is to take people

8:20

back to that moment and say

8:22

you didn't get a chance to

8:24

do this. right now like what

8:27

what would you have wanted to

8:29

say you can't change the outcome

8:31

but maybe it would just be

8:33

that you loved her so that

8:35

you knew like only an eight-year-old

8:37

could love another eight right but

8:40

i mean it's kind of like

8:42

pets you know what i mean

8:44

people are so attached to their

8:46

pets because pets love you really

8:48

simply they don't hold anything against

8:51

you and eight-year-olds don't either we'll

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Comcast corporation.com/ Wi-Fi. Well,

11:26

it's just amazing to me like

11:28

because I think I feel like

11:30

in society and growing up like

11:32

this idea of talking about death

11:34

is is First of all crying

11:36

in public is such inconvenience for

11:38

everyone around you Talking about death

11:40

makes people uncomfortable so they they

11:42

immediately sort of patch on the

11:44

shoulder and feel sorry for you

11:46

and walk away And grief is

11:48

just not given you know, I

11:50

think the thing I was struck

11:52

about In GreveTastic, the event that

11:54

you organized for authors who were

11:56

speaking about Greve was that there

11:58

was language for things that happened.

12:00

I had not heard before. There

12:02

were people who had suffered great

12:04

loss exchanging ideas in a very

12:07

healthy way. And not everybody was

12:09

crying. And so many people were

12:11

in acceptance. I think it would

12:14

be healthy for other people to

12:16

see that grief has a natural

12:18

way of existing in us and

12:20

moving through us without dominating us.

12:22

Would you say that that's? part

12:24

of what you know I define

12:26

grief as the energy that's created in

12:28

your body on account of loss so

12:31

when my 14 year olds team did

12:33

not win you know the giant

12:35

soccer tournament and he was

12:37

heartbroken I assumed he needed

12:39

to cry about that right and he

12:41

was like it's just a soccer game

12:43

and I was like that's not how

12:45

grief works honey it doesn't like set,

12:47

it's just an energy, it's made up

12:49

of a lot of things. One of

12:51

the things I know about my grief

12:53

is that it's often made up of

12:55

a lot of anger. There's a lot

12:57

of resistance to the sadness, and I

12:59

usually have to like work my way through

13:01

it. But I do think the awareness, so

13:04

a lot of what I teach people about

13:06

is like, oh, well, there's some clues in

13:08

your body about what grief when grief is

13:10

present. So if you're not, and I work

13:12

with a lot of men, Scotty. you know

13:14

I sort of say like well your headache and

13:16

your back ache and your feet are hurting and

13:19

you know how long that's has that been going

13:21

on oh it's a year what else happened a

13:23

year ago oh your dad I think they're connected

13:25

right and people always say to me no I

13:27

don't think they're connected and I'm like okay well

13:29

I'm just gonna tell you they are connected. I

13:32

love that. Right? Like mind body connection,

13:34

that's what this is. So some of

13:36

it is sort of like just the

13:38

general education and as a trauma therapist

13:40

I often feel like I need to

13:42

apologize to people because they end up

13:44

in my office like they need treatment.

13:46

But really if they had if we lived

13:49

in a culture that was better at just

13:51

naming it and talking about it

13:53

and saying we assume everywhere you

13:55

go there's probably somebody at the

13:57

table that is struggling right now with

13:59

some of grief, if we were

14:01

able to make room for that,

14:03

people wouldn't need to go to

14:05

a therapist's office. They could just

14:07

do the part that they need.

14:10

And it's funny you say the

14:12

thing about crying in public is

14:14

an inconvenience. I only cry in

14:16

public. Other people were definitely giving

14:18

me a side eye, but I

14:20

was like this is how it's

14:22

done people like I'm totally comfortable

14:24

sitting here crying a lot of

14:26

what I do with folks is

14:28

sort of try to say that

14:31

like do you feel more comfortable

14:33

crying in your car by yourself

14:35

on your phone with a friend

14:37

or in a crowded space? And

14:39

so many people will say to

14:41

me, it's so funny you ask

14:43

if I feel more comfortable in

14:45

a crowded space, because I feel

14:47

like I shouldn't cry while I'm

14:50

there. But actually, a more, like

14:52

the lump in my throat comes

14:54

around other people, not when I'm

14:56

by myself. So really what I'm

14:58

trying to do is teach people,

15:00

like, yeah, no, you need to

15:02

be in the protective energy of

15:04

others in order to get into

15:06

your feelings. There's nothing wrong with

15:09

that. That's totally normal. you don't

15:11

owe other people in an airport

15:13

comfort. You don't know them anything.

15:15

Yeah, that's a tough one. That's

15:17

a tough one to get through,

15:19

I think, for a lot of

15:21

us. And, you know, Lord, Lord,

15:23

Laura said, we have, I've had

15:25

the experience of being able to

15:27

cope with my feelings in our

15:30

community, right? Like we go to

15:32

meetings and talk about loss, and

15:34

we're embraced for being emotional, being

15:36

in touch with the truth as

15:38

we see it. And so we're

15:40

reinforced differently than society, society, I

15:42

think, especially men. right? Like we

15:44

are so asked not to be

15:46

that like to be strong and

15:49

whatever that looks like and I

15:51

you know I'm a huge proponent

15:53

of defining your own experience in

15:55

life and not you know I'm

15:57

not join her so much is,

15:59

you know, because I feel like

16:01

we're all, you know, allowed to

16:03

have whatever experience we need. And,

16:05

you know, I do want to

16:08

ask because I feel like everybody,

16:10

you know, I think one of

16:12

the things I heard at GreaveTastic

16:14

was that, you know, everybody should

16:16

be here. Everybody has grief and

16:18

trauma around loss. But what inspires

16:20

people to learn in your experience?

16:22

What brings people to you to

16:24

understand more about their experience? If

16:26

someone says to you, I've lost,

16:29

you know, I've had great loss

16:31

in my life and I'm fine

16:33

with it. Do you, is that,

16:35

is that normal? I mean, yeah,

16:37

I believe in that. I mean,

16:39

I believe, again, I believe grieving

16:41

is more like a developmental process,

16:43

almost like puberty, like a thing

16:45

you're gonna go through. And I

16:48

do think there are people who

16:50

were taught. to connect and taught

16:52

to express and are in really

16:54

good touch with, you know, exercising

16:56

or eating healthy or praying or

16:58

using art or music. I think

17:00

there are some people who already

17:02

have sort of an innate skill

17:04

set and know how to grieve

17:06

and maybe that comes from their

17:09

culture or maybe, but for the

17:11

most part, I think people generally

17:13

say, no, I didn't need more

17:15

support. Because they have no idea

17:17

what the support would have been.

17:19

Like if I said to you,

17:21

what do you want for lunch

17:23

and you'd never heard of sushi,

17:25

you wouldn't know to ask for

17:28

sushi. Sure. But we, most of

17:30

the time, people say to me

17:32

like, I didn't grieve. And I

17:34

say, what does that mean? What

17:36

does that even mean? What they

17:38

mean is they didn't cry a

17:40

lot. But crying is only like

17:42

one portion of what grieving of

17:44

what grieving. So when people are

17:47

coming to find me as a

17:49

trauma therapist, they're usually in trouble.

17:51

They've usually been living with these

17:53

symptoms for a long time and

17:55

now they are... It's affecting their

17:57

life in a way that they

17:59

don't understand. Right? kind of like

18:01

walking into a meeting, right, where

18:03

you're like, I know I need

18:05

help, I don't know if I

18:08

believe you can help me, but

18:10

I know I need something. What

18:12

I want, and the reason that

18:14

I wrote, can anyone tell me,

18:16

is I want people to have

18:18

a core grief education the way

18:20

that we teach kids about puberty.

18:22

We tell them, weird hair is

18:24

gonna grow places, your voice is

18:27

gonna drop, you're gonna start to

18:29

have these like surges of feelings,

18:31

you might get sweaty, you might

18:33

start to smell, so that they

18:35

don't feel terrified. by what their

18:37

physical experiences in the emotional experience,

18:39

which is primarily what we're talking

18:41

about. I want people to have

18:43

that same education about grief and

18:46

loss because we grieve with our

18:48

bodies and we can have that

18:50

conversation. Grieftastic then expands on that

18:52

by saying, and here's a man

18:54

who lost his two children in

18:56

one car accident in one second

18:58

and he's still alive. I love

19:00

that. I think I, I, I,

19:02

it felt like an expansion of

19:04

ideas and here were people who

19:07

would walk through things that were

19:09

unimaginable embracing, not avoiding, remembering, sharing

19:11

about. the loss, which is just

19:13

the opposite of what I think

19:15

most of us see in the

19:17

world where we don't want to

19:19

talk about it, we don't want

19:21

to ask about it, we whisper

19:23

in corners to other people about

19:26

how are they dealing with it,

19:28

what's going on with them. I'm

19:30

fascinated with the subject only because,

19:32

you know, I have lost both

19:34

my parents and I had a

19:36

rather profound experience on my mom's.

19:38

loss and that would have been

19:40

almost seven years ago I think

19:42

but I hit a wall we

19:45

talked a little bit about showing

19:47

up about 15 minutes after she

19:49

had passed after a long day

19:51

of trying to get there. I

19:53

sat in a moment of like

19:55

you're the worst son in the

19:57

world. I wanted to blame everybody

19:59

in my life. And then I

20:01

had sort of a spiritual moment

20:03

the next morning where I realized

20:06

I had just spent two weeks

20:08

with her in the best fashion

20:10

I could have ever, you know,

20:12

yeah. It was it was perfect,

20:14

you know, and that put closure

20:16

to the situation in a way

20:18

that. I didn't hang on to

20:20

it. And then, you know, I

20:22

think one of the things that

20:25

I've learned as an adult is

20:27

for me, there is grief and

20:29

then there is, I call it

20:31

sadness, but depression and grief are

20:33

different to me. Grief seems to

20:35

have a life of its own.

20:37

It comes and goes as it

20:39

will. And sadness is something that

20:41

I think I form around regret

20:43

and I don't have a lot

20:46

now, but again, I wish somebody

20:48

could have fast tracked me to

20:50

that, I think. I know that

20:52

it's, again, a personal thing. I'm

20:54

really excited about the community that

20:56

you've created. I really... You're so

20:58

kind. I mean, well, I think

21:00

it seems like something that needed

21:02

to happen and you became sort

21:05

of the liaison for this where

21:07

you opened the door. And I

21:09

do feel like that. Yeah, that

21:11

moment that we saw you crying,

21:13

it felt... I think I instantly

21:15

knew that you were overwhelmed with

21:17

how good it was in the

21:19

moment. Gratitude. Just like... So, yeah,

21:21

and you can't, if you don't,

21:24

if you don't grieve, you also

21:26

can't show up for those moments,

21:28

right? Like, you can't feel, if

21:30

you, if you cut off the

21:32

deep feeling of sorrow and sadness

21:34

and longing, you don't get the

21:36

overwhelm of, um, of living, yeah.

21:38

What, yeah, what was your mom's

21:40

name, Scotty? Nancy, yeah. And the

21:42

little girl who died when you

21:45

were little, Sharon, um, I don't

21:47

know, I always ask because I

21:49

can like, I don't know, conjure

21:51

it or something, conjure some connection

21:53

to it. Yeah, yeah. Well, you

21:55

and I could go on and

21:57

on forever about this, by the

21:59

way, which maybe we. We could

22:01

have a follow-up down the road.

22:04

Yeah, yeah. You guys, Megan Jarvis,

22:06

the podcast is Grief is My

22:08

Side Hustle. The books are the

22:10

end of the hour, and her

22:12

new book is called Can

22:14

Anyone Tell Me? Essential

22:16

Questions about Grief and Loss.

22:18

All of her information is

22:21

in our show notes. If

22:23

you enjoyed this conversation, please

22:26

go back to the main

22:28

episode on Tuesday. the only grief

22:30

therapist who checked herself into therapy. And

22:33

Megan, thank you so much. We'll do

22:35

this again, I promise. I would love

22:37

it. I can't wait to see you again.

22:39

Scotty, thank you so much, and thank you

22:42

so much to Laura for having me. Thank

22:44

you so much for listening. Scott Talks is

22:46

produced by Kail and Bean, and Executiveally produced

22:48

by me, Scott Slaughter. Please subscribe to our

22:50

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