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awesome template. No judgment. This

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is Open to Debate. I'm John Donvan. Hi everybody.

0:37

Today for this episode, my good friend

0:39

and colleague, Naima Reza, is guest moderating

0:41

for a fascinating debate exploring the perennial

0:44

mystery of happiness. That ever elusive state

0:46

so many of us seem to be

0:48

striving for in our lives. These

0:51

days, it feels like seeking happiness has

0:53

become a shared national obsession. There

0:56

are podcasts to help us be happier.

0:58

There are self-help books. Even

1:00

these days, there are some very popular college

1:02

classes aimed at helping students better

1:05

attain happiness in their lives. And

1:07

yet for all that effort, we

1:09

don't seem to be getting very much happier. Depression

1:12

levels are at record highs. Loneliness

1:14

has skyrocketed. Younger people

1:16

in particular are reporting pretty dramatic

1:18

decreases in happiness. So it

1:21

feels like this might be a good

1:23

moment to be reevaluating the very definition

1:25

of happiness. So what you're going

1:27

to hear is a great philosophical and historical reckoning

1:29

with the concept of happiness. Naima Reza,

1:32

as I've mentioned, will be guest moderating. She's a

1:34

journalist with New York Magazine and Vox

1:36

Media. Now onto the show.

1:40

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of

1:42

happiness. It's a familiar refrain

1:44

and a trifecta enshrined in the United

1:46

States Declaration of Independence. Three

1:49

unalienable rights that are endowed to man

1:51

and secured, we're told, by the institution

1:53

of government. Yet happiness

1:55

feels increasingly elusive. Over a quarter

1:57

of American adults report having experienced

2:00

depression. The Surgeon General has described

2:02

loneliness as an epidemic. And

2:04

just weeks ago, the World's Happiness Report was

2:06

published, ranking more than 140 countries. It was

2:08

the first

2:11

time in a dozen years that the United States

2:13

was not amongst the top 20. And a

2:15

key challenge was lower rates of happiness amongst

2:18

people under the age of 30. So it's

2:20

a good time to

2:22

revisit this enshrined document and ask

2:24

how exactly do we pursue happiness?

2:27

Is it via virtue, which is this idea

2:29

that maybe we become happy by

2:31

being good or doing good? Or is

2:33

it pleasure that we become happy by

2:35

making ourselves feel good? This is

2:37

a kind of debate that you could

2:40

have in a philosophical realm between Stoics

2:42

and hedonist. But today we're approaching

2:44

it with two divergent perspectives. We're

2:46

exploring the pursuit of happiness with a

2:49

legal scholar who brings a historical lens

2:51

for the primacy of virtue, and a

2:53

philosopher who will argue for the value

2:55

of pleasure. Let me introduce

2:57

our debaters. On the virtue side

2:59

of this conversation, we have Jeffrey Rosen. He's

3:02

the CEO and President of the National

3:04

Constitution Center, and the author of the recent

3:06

book, The Pursuit of Happiness, how classical

3:09

writers on virtue inspired the

3:11

lives of founders and defined

3:13

America. He also happens to be

3:15

a returning debater. Hi, Jeffrey, good to have you here.

3:17

Hi, great to be back. And

3:19

arguing that pleasure is the key to happiness,

3:22

we welcome Roger Crisp. He's a professor of

3:24

moral philosophy at the University of Oxford, where

3:26

he's also a Uero fellow and a tutor

3:29

in the philosophy at St. Anne's College. Roger

3:32

is the author of several books,

3:34

including Sacrifice Regained, Morality and Self-Interest

3:36

in British Moral Philosophy from Hobbes

3:38

to Bentham. Roger, thank you for

3:40

being here today. Thank you for

3:42

the invitation, Naomi. It's great to be here.

3:44

Excellent. I'm going to get to opening

3:47

arguments in a moment, but before that I have a

3:49

quick question because I've just run through a number of

3:51

credentials you both have very esteemed. But

3:53

there's one I think would be important for

3:55

our listeners to understand as well, which is

3:58

whether you're happy. So Roger, Let

4:00

me start with you. Just a quick question. Are

4:02

you coming to this debate happy? And what does that mean to

4:04

you? I am happy

4:06

and that means I'm enjoying

4:08

positive mental states through participating

4:11

in this interesting debate. Excellent.

4:14

Jeffrey, let me ask you, are you happy? Well,

4:16

I have learned that happiness includes virtues

4:19

like industry. So this morning I got

4:21

up and I did my reading and

4:23

writing and I was industrious and therefore

4:26

I'm happy. Excellent. And having read

4:28

your book, I believe you're happier yet for having

4:30

studied happiness because it got you

4:32

into sonnet writing and memorization. Excellent.

4:35

So I want to with that established with

4:37

your happiness credentials established and the definitions thereof,

4:40

let's dive into opening statements. We want each

4:42

of you to take a few minutes to

4:44

explain your position. So Jeffrey,

4:46

I'll invite you up first. And based

4:48

on your research, how would you articulate

4:50

the virtue side of this conversation that

4:52

happiness is doing good rather than feeling

4:55

good? So during

4:57

COVID, I set out to read

4:59

the books on Thomas Jefferson's reading

5:01

list that he said informed

5:04

his understanding of happiness as

5:07

being good rather than feeling good. And

5:09

this was an unusual project. I'd noted that

5:12

both Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson had made

5:14

lists of 12 or 13 virtues for daily

5:16

living. And

5:19

both of them chose as mottos

5:21

for their project an excerpt from

5:23

Cicero's tusculine disputations that said essentially

5:26

without virtue, happiness cannot be.

5:29

So during COVID, I set out to

5:31

read Cicero, which I'd never read

5:33

before, despite my wonderful liberal arts education,

5:35

as well as the other books in

5:38

the natural philosophy or religion section

5:40

of Jefferson's reading list. And

5:42

these included Marcus Aurelius,

5:45

Epictetus, Seneca's letters, as

5:48

well as enlightenment philosophers like Locke,

5:51

Lord Bolingbroke, Hume's

5:53

essays, and a few others.

5:56

And What? I Found After a year of reading these

5:59

books of classic literature, The go moral philosophy

6:01

is that for all of them

6:03

are first of all they contain

6:05

the phrase but Pursuit of Happiness

6:07

and Jefferson The other founders relied

6:09

on these sources and drafting the

6:11

decorations and all defined happiness not

6:13

as ceiling good to be in

6:15

good, the pursuit of virtue, not

6:17

the pursuit of pleasure and broadly

6:19

virtue. Many different things over the

6:21

ages of course, but it had

6:23

to do a self mastery, character

6:25

improvements, self improvement using your powers

6:27

of reason to moderate your unreasonable

6:29

passions. And emotions so that you

6:31

could be your best self and

6:34

serve others to use us modern

6:36

formulations. It's it's really a form

6:38

of impulse control, resisting your immediate

6:40

urges and and are unproductive emotions

6:42

like anger, jealousy and fear. See

6:44

you can achieve the com self

6:46

mastery that makes us productive and

6:48

self possessed citizens and nice out

6:50

to see how the sound are

6:52

supplied. These lessons in their own

6:54

lives and again what? What I

6:56

learned Team is a revelation. Stay

6:58

talked constantly about their efforts. To

7:00

achieve virtuous self mastery to com

7:02

their anxieties, they sell short and

7:05

important respects in in most notoriously

7:07

slavery where the and slavers acknowledge

7:09

their own hypocrisy. Patrick Henry said

7:11

is not amazing that he owned

7:14

slaves even as he viewed slavery

7:16

is violating natural rights. But and

7:18

he confessed that it was simple

7:20

avarice or greed that made it

7:23

impossible for him to give up

7:25

the lifestyle the slavery afforded. When.

7:28

Yet despite that hypocrisy on

7:30

the founders were. Remarkably.

7:33

Productive into their old age, and

7:35

if they had of virtue that they

7:37

continued to practice, it was industries. Jefferson's

7:40

reading list is so inspiring and

7:42

it's. Rigor. And

7:44

prescribing what you should read and of

7:46

what time of day. And it's inspiring

7:48

to see Jefferson Adams as old men

7:51

exchanging the latest books they read and

7:53

and Adam so excited to learn that

7:55

Pythagoras, a sounder Greek moral philosophy, had

7:57

traveled in the East and read the

8:00

Hindu Betas and Adams extracting from the

8:02

wisdom of the East and West this

8:04

idea that we are what we think.

8:06

Life is shaped by the mind and

8:09

only by abandoning a testament to external

8:11

results can we are control the only

8:13

thing we can control which is our

8:15

own thoughts and actions and achieve the

8:18

com self mastery that defines happiness On

8:20

this project changed my life a changed

8:22

the way I thought about both personal

8:24

and public happiness I came to see

8:26

it was important to be a good

8:29

citizen of. Our and to be

8:31

a good person's personal self government was

8:33

necessary for political self government but the

8:36

biggest take away was just changing my

8:38

reading habits and now inspired by The

8:40

Founders. Every morning I try to wake

8:43

up and do actual deep reading rather

8:45

than browsing and surfing and I found

8:47

that more than anything else this immensely

8:50

improves my happiness and has convince me

8:52

says the pursuit of happiness requires the

8:54

pursuit of virtuous self mastery. Thank.

8:57

You very much as I said as opening

8:59

remarks. And right I'm going to. Had asked you

9:01

right now to make your. Opening arguments.

9:03

That please tell us your case of

9:06

ice happiness is about ceiling. Guide. Rather

9:08

than doing that will sanctuary

9:10

months name and thank you

9:12

Jeffrey. So that outline of

9:14

your position the debate were

9:16

taking part in is an

9:18

ancient one and I think

9:20

month seat. Beginning with the

9:23

death of Socrates at his

9:25

trial, Socrates insisted several times

9:27

that birch he was the

9:29

only thing that matters. In

9:31

one's lies, it's the only constituents

9:33

of happiness. This He was defended

9:35

by many as follows: The Socrates.

9:38

Including of course, Plato and

9:41

Aristotle. But in the case

9:43

of Aristotle, he took time.

9:46

To. Explain how being virtuous is

9:48

also found to be be

9:50

the most pleasure because he

9:53

realized how plausible. It.

9:55

Is. To. say that's pleasure

9:57

is good and suffering or

10:00

pain is bad that just seems

10:02

to me a very clear intuitively

10:05

plausible. I think

10:07

we need to be clear that jeffrey's

10:09

position is interpreted in one way a

10:12

very strong one he saying that there's

10:14

nothing good about pleasure and

10:16

there's nothing bad about pain

10:18

or suffering and that is what i said. But

10:22

of course Socrates had a pupil

10:24

called Aristippus who's often identified as

10:26

the first hedonist who. Ran

10:29

with that idea that pleasure

10:31

is intuitively not not only a

10:34

good. But the good

10:36

in other words anything anything else

10:38

is good only in so far as it gives

10:40

you pleasure that could include virtue. So

10:43

there's nothing to stop a hedonist saying the virtuous

10:45

life is the best one but

10:48

it's the best one because it gives you the

10:50

greatest balance of pleasure over pain so I think

10:52

what I would ask people to do is just

10:54

reflect upon that question. Are

10:56

you really ready to deny that

10:58

pleasure is good and

11:01

pain or suffering is bad

11:03

I'd also like to stress

11:05

that we're not talking just

11:08

about bodily central

11:10

pleasures. We're talking about

11:12

any kind of enjoyment so it could

11:14

be the enjoyment of virtue it could

11:16

be the enjoyment enjoyment of accomplishing something

11:19

with your life it could be. The

11:22

enjoyment of spending time with your friends

11:24

and your your family the enjoyment that.

11:27

Jeffrey there appeared to be admitting

11:30

to having experience early in the

11:32

morning of reading these great works

11:34

of philosophy and history and so

11:36

on. We also need i

11:38

think to remember that there's a difference

11:40

between saying saying that enjoyment is the

11:43

only thing that matters on the one

11:45

hand and saying on the other. You

11:48

should always be aiming consciously.

11:51

Add enjoyment in your life the

11:54

chances are if you do that you'll fail so

11:56

if you imagine Somebody

11:58

who becomes a tennis player. And

12:00

then tries always to gain

12:03

maximum enjoyment from any game

12:05

that they're playing. A probably

12:07

enjoy the games less than

12:09

he say concentrate on saying

12:11

the best tennis. So there's

12:13

no reason for Hayden is

12:15

not to take many of

12:17

the goods such as virtue

12:19

oh, accomplishments own knowledge or

12:21

friendship and advocate that they

12:24

be pursued for the advocating

12:26

that just because pursuing those

12:28

goods indirectly will give you.

12:30

The greatest balance A pleasure and pain And

12:33

you very much as I said. That's an

12:35

thanks to both. We now know where you

12:37

stand in line for going to take a

12:39

quick fake I'm on back or has a

12:41

deeper into this question of whether the pursuit

12:43

of happiness. Is racism virtue, foreign

12:45

pleasure or name Or as as

12:47

as as as into to naughty

12:49

that asks. Welcome

13:07

back to Open to debate on your moderator

13:09

name or Raza and were debating the pursuit

13:11

of happiness. Virtue or pleasure we

13:14

just heard opening remarks from our to

13:16

debaters Suffer As and the Cel and

13:18

President of the National Constitution Centre and

13:21

author of the book A Personal Happiness

13:23

and Roger Crest of Professor of Moral

13:25

Philosophy at Oxford University. And author of

13:27

The Box Sacrifice regained. I won't take

13:30

a moment to to summarize a bit

13:32

of your positions that you articulated jeffrey

13:34

you your business. It really comes from

13:36

the founding fathers but also actually some

13:39

before than it looks at the source.

13:41

As the primary sources of that the

13:43

founders consulted. And reading lists

13:45

like Jefferson South's everything from

13:48

Cicero to Lock and even

13:50

moving towards Eastern literature was

13:52

damn. The roots is that.

13:54

it is by doing good that

13:56

you will become happy that it's

13:58

self mastery and this idea of

14:01

being your best self and helping

14:03

others that will give you industry, good

14:06

citizenship, that will give you that market

14:08

happiness. And really it's a

14:10

basis in kind of recognizing your own limits,

14:12

your own agency and self-control. And that

14:14

kind of self-control and discipline can

14:16

transcend oneself and create a society

14:19

that is controlled, happy, and

14:21

masterful in some way. And

14:23

Roger, I understand your argument saying you acknowledge,

14:26

look, this is a dominant historical perspective that

14:28

dates back to Socrates. However,

14:30

there are offshoots early on in that philosophy

14:33

that we really need to consult, one

14:36

being Aristotle and then much more

14:38

so Aristipus, who's this kind of

14:40

father of hedonism, as you call

14:42

him, who looked at virtue as

14:44

a potential for pleasure,

14:46

but also really looked at other

14:48

pleasures. So virtue could be a path to pleasure, but

14:50

it's not the only path to pleasure. And

14:53

your key basis for this argument is, look, virtue

14:55

is a part of pleasure. Pleasure

14:57

is bigger than how we conceive it.

14:59

And also, if we

15:02

don't acknowledge that that pleasure is critical in the

15:04

pursuit of happiness, we really have to

15:06

deny that pleasure

15:08

is good and that pain is bad, which is

15:10

the premise upon which Socrates and

15:12

the Stoics kind of came out on

15:15

this. I do want to

15:17

dig into the debate now because, Jeffrey,

15:19

I'm just going to say your argument is firmly rooted

15:21

in this historical definitions of the pursuit

15:23

of happiness. You acknowledge in your opening

15:25

statement that, look, there were some hypocrisies

15:27

here at the founders. Most

15:30

of them practiced slavery, for example. I

15:33

also, in reading your work, noticed that

15:35

they seem they were constantly anxious,

15:37

not necessarily the happiest people in

15:39

their writings, and also that they

15:42

have an incentive here, that these

15:44

founders were looking for control in

15:46

some way. They were looking to

15:48

erect government. And so it was in

15:50

their interest for people to be self-regulated so

15:52

that they could regulate them. So

15:54

I just want to start with asking you, Jeffrey, why are

15:57

these Founders The right source?

16:00

On happiness. And

16:02

on virtue. Well, they

16:04

may or may not be. but

16:07

it's not the founders who are

16:09

source put all his ancient philosophy

16:11

and it's that. My argument is

16:14

this: this was the understanding of

16:16

happiness said persistent from earliest times

16:18

through perhaps first nineteen sixties. And

16:21

what's so striking is that adds

16:23

a classical understanding is not at

16:25

all consistent with Sus hedonism that

16:28

Roger Crisp so thoughtfully outlined, but

16:30

the idea that arose in the

16:32

Nineteen sixties that. Immediate gratification is

16:34

the source of happiness. Whether it's

16:36

sex, drugs and rock and roll

16:38

are are just said bit you

16:41

do you are, I'm let it

16:43

all hang out. The idea that

16:45

just by Ah did greed is

16:47

good bye bye gratifying our immediate

16:49

desires without the sober second thoughts

16:51

that can lead us to serve

16:53

our long term interests and of

16:55

that's the key to happiness and

16:57

them. and that such a position

16:59

that I I think is not

17:01

either supported by the sounders, by

17:03

the classical philosophy. Or by modern has

17:05

been and happiness literature and that's the

17:07

position that I'd argue against them a

17:10

sense and psychological times. Who had said

17:12

deny yourself that marshmallow in that same

17:14

as experiments not instant gratification as absolutely

17:17

it all comes back to the marshmallow

17:19

test hims really striking house. Whether classical

17:21

or enlightenment that ideas sober second thoughts

17:23

is was released said definition of of

17:26

Abbott's quiet and and what it bring

17:28

it to a contemporary lands because I

17:30

I think there's a very important cultural

17:33

conversation the sixties. As as one key moment.

17:35

But there's. Something happening right now amongst

17:37

millennia old that is one yells

17:39

at. There's a cultural assessment toward

17:41

lobbying the easier lot. About boundaries,

17:44

self care, Quiet Clay saying you

17:46

do you And so I wonder

17:48

whether this is. Virtuous or it's

17:50

pleasurable and letter of alternately

17:53

results and happiness. Module Maybe I'll

17:55

ask you. To. address this forest absolutely

17:57

and i think there is that

17:59

movements And I think Jeffrey and I

18:01

may be on the same page

18:03

here in that we

18:06

might both agree that the best

18:08

way to live your life is not to pursue immediate,

18:11

central pleasure. That will

18:13

not give you the greatest

18:15

happiness. What will

18:17

give you the greatest happiness as far as

18:19

I'm concerned is having meaningful

18:22

work, having a decent

18:25

income, family and

18:27

friends and so on. And I don't think it's

18:29

anything mysterious. I think we actually know what

18:32

the sources of happiness are and people

18:34

have known for thousands of years what

18:36

the sources of happiness are. But

18:39

these sources are

18:41

being forgotten by some people who

18:44

claim that we should aim for short-term

18:46

pleasures. Or, for example, we

18:49

should aim for the maximum income

18:51

we have at the cost of

18:53

other goods in our lives. When

18:56

people talk about wellbeing, people like Richard

18:58

Layard, for example, and

19:00

people who promote happiness, what they

19:03

mean by that is

19:05

not short-term pleasure. They

19:07

mean contentment, life satisfaction and so

19:09

on. And the things

19:11

that I mentioned I think are going to give you

19:13

that. And that's what I think

19:15

many people will be aiming at in their life,

19:18

those sources of long-term

19:20

happiness or enjoyment. Now,

19:24

is that virtuous, that kind of life? Well, not

19:27

necessarily, because some

19:30

rather vicious people might have some

19:32

pretty good family relationships and meaningful

19:35

work and so on. Equally,

19:37

I think virtue can be a

19:40

sort of satisfaction for many

19:42

people. If you're generally contented with

19:44

yourself as a decent person, you probably will

19:46

have a better life. I want

19:48

to remove this idea of instant gratification because I do

19:50

think that you two will agree on that and I

19:53

want to focus on the kind of broader movement

19:55

toward wellbeing. Jeffrey, I wonder how you see this

19:57

shift towards wellbeing and self-care, because I heard you

19:59

reference you. do you culture? And

20:01

I'm thinking about how you

20:03

kind of contemplated John Adams' own

20:06

internal struggle between self-mastery and

20:08

self-love or vanity. Yes,

20:11

I wouldn't so quickly set

20:13

aside the shift from delayed

20:15

to immediate gratification because that

20:17

was the huge cultural shift

20:19

in the 1960s. And

20:21

I would

20:24

be interested, in fact, in Roger's thoughts,

20:27

about why that happened. Some have

20:29

blamed Freud and the shift from

20:31

character to personality, others the romantic

20:34

movement. Others just note

20:36

that pop culture itself came to

20:38

celebrate immediate gratification and blame the

20:41

cultural contradictions of capitalism exacerbated

20:43

by our new internet culture.

20:46

But that is the shift.

20:48

And I think Roger and

20:50

I are on the

20:52

same page about the satisfactions

20:57

of work and

20:59

relationships and so forth. We

21:01

might debate the particular virtues

21:03

that lead to long-term well-being.

21:05

As he says, it's quite

21:07

true that vicious people can

21:09

have good family relationships. It

21:11

is striking that the 13 virtues

21:14

that Ben Franklin enumerated were

21:16

glosses on the four classical virtues of

21:18

prudence, temperance, courage, and justice. And they

21:20

were really virtues of the mind, of

21:24

the soul, industry, resolution,

21:26

cleanliness, habits

21:30

of daily living, jumping

21:33

off of Pythagoras' 76

21:35

golden virtues that lead us

21:37

to delayed gratification.

21:40

And that's why it's all about habits.

21:42

And that's why it's possible to

21:44

have tremendous hypocrisy and important moral

21:47

matters like slavery

21:49

and being addicted to the avaricious

21:51

lifestyle that it made possible and

21:54

still be industrious and have good

21:56

family relationships. There

22:00

are you to address that, costs and of

22:02

what happened in the sixties, this kind of

22:04

age of sex, drugs and rock, Rock and

22:07

roll. And do you think it says dangerous

22:09

or as problematic as being to simply that

22:11

and synchronization? Or do think that there were

22:13

actually some good elements that emerged that time

22:16

period or woodlands? Talk about the sixes. I'm

22:18

not not an expert or was nine and

22:20

in Nineteen seventy Philip living a box first

22:23

to see said tree for sentry acids because

22:25

I think there's an issue arising in were

22:27

Jeffrey said about what counts as a virtue,

22:29

How. We understand the idea of

22:31

virtue so the ancient word for

22:34

that is iris hey and is

22:36

usually translated as virtue and sees

22:38

the understood to mean moral virtue

22:40

the kind of saying that we'd

22:42

referred to as generosity, your kindness

22:44

or justice or something that that.

22:46

but it also means experts. Said.

22:49

They would have talked for example, about the

22:51

excellence of a racehorse. And. Of

22:53

course it would be absurd. Talk

22:55

about a racehorse having moral virtues.

22:57

It means that they've excelled in

22:59

various ways. So I think we

23:02

can extend the notion of virtues

23:04

to include expenses of various kinds.

23:06

And so for example, to the

23:08

the reading of the books that

23:10

Jeffrey mentioned might be a hard

23:13

to sauce under the heading of

23:15

any particular moral virtue, but I

23:17

presume that it wouldn't be difficult

23:19

see that as his exercising his

23:21

own intellectual capacity East. And

23:23

advancing his knowledge in a way

23:26

that could be described as direct

23:28

himself towards excellence. Know

23:30

I'll take it in the sixties Thoughts

23:33

idea of living one's life was very

23:35

much in the. Background.

23:37

And people were thinking maybe

23:40

as a result since the

23:42

release from. The. Pressures

23:44

of the second mobile and so on. and

23:46

as if he was saying the big, the

23:49

growth of capitalism and advertising and so on.

23:51

People did start to focus much more i'm they

23:54

on the short term and it turned turned out

23:56

for many people to be a terrible. Mistake.

23:59

Just and look. I'm curious, looking at

24:01

something like doctors, because the

24:03

most virtuous career perhaps I

24:05

could think of. You know, you imagine

24:07

medical professionals therefore by the idea that

24:09

virtue would be critical in

24:11

this pursuit of happiness would be happy. And yet

24:13

studies suggest that doctors are far from happy. Their

24:16

burnout rates have spiked post COVID, healthcare

24:18

workers in many cases are more likely to

24:21

be depressed or suicidal in the general

24:23

population. I know you're not an expert in

24:25

psychology or the medical profession, but

24:27

I do wonder how you square

24:29

that virtuous life and its outcomes

24:31

against the framers ideas that doing

24:34

good is happiness. Well, I

24:36

would resist the impulse to

24:38

talk about virtue in the abstract. You could

24:40

have a doctor who's dissatisfied

24:42

by the burnout of work, but

24:45

is successful in practicing mindfulness

24:48

and calming his anxieties or

24:50

can have effective personal relationships

24:53

with his kids, but is dissatisfied

24:56

by health insurance. There's

24:59

no such thing as a virtuous profession, very

25:02

important to stress. This is a

25:04

radically empowering philosophy of self mastery

25:06

and each individual has the opportunity

25:08

on not only a daily

25:11

but hourly basis to try

25:13

to achieve that calm tranquility

25:16

that defines self mastery, which

25:18

makes possible long-term happiness.

25:20

There are such connections to the Eastern

25:23

traditions and that idea that we are

25:25

what we think in life's shape by the mind is

25:28

so important. Right, I wanna ask about that,

25:30

this idea of kind of regardless of

25:32

whatever is going on around us because

25:34

that kind of stoicism, I don't know,

25:36

Roger, I'm curious to explore your perspective

25:38

on it because one way

25:41

of looking at what's happening to medical

25:43

professionals, but just anyone in a very challenging

25:45

position is around pain and pleasure. So

25:47

how do you think those factor in? Well, I

25:50

think virtue and pleasure are quite different.

25:53

So I have to admit that a vicious

25:55

person could live a very

25:57

enjoyable and happy life. life.

26:01

And equally, a virtuous person

26:03

might might be very unhappy. And

26:06

I take it that doctors are in that

26:08

category. And I was struck

26:10

there by Jeffrey's mention

26:12

of calm tranquility, because I take it that

26:14

most people we count as virtuous, or many

26:17

people that we count as virtuous would live

26:19

lives of calm tranquility, it's just that you

26:22

need more, you know, so doctors are

26:24

not wracked by guilt, you know, they're quite happy with

26:27

what they're doing, it's just that there are other sources

26:29

of happiness which are not available to them, like

26:32

sufficient recreation. It Jeffrey really makes a

26:34

case, I think, relying on historical definitions

26:36

of the pursuit of happiness, that and really,

26:38

these federalist papers as a kind

26:40

of manual to public happiness. So

26:42

a state built on virtuous and

26:44

happy citizens would be a virtuous

26:46

state. I'm curious, Roger, if

26:48

you can imagine an alternative,

26:51

hypothetical or make a case that a

26:53

nation might be better off might be

26:55

happier, if it's citizens focused on feeling

26:57

good, rather than doing good

27:00

and not feeling good in that instant gratification,

27:02

extreme version of it, but, but thinking

27:04

about pleasure and pain. Well, I

27:07

think I could make a case of that. I mean, it has been made

27:10

by people like Richard Layard

27:12

and others in recent years. And

27:14

in fact, Keir Starmer, who is

27:17

quite likely to be our next Prime Minister in the

27:19

UK has said, he will judge

27:21

every policy not by or not only

27:23

by its effect on our growth, but

27:25

domestic product, but also by its effects

27:28

on well being. And I do think

27:30

the term well being is perhaps better

27:32

here than feeling good. Because

27:34

feeling good does suggest something rather fleeting,

27:37

whereas what we're talking about is, is

27:39

life satisfaction. And really, that's what matters

27:42

to people if they understand properly what

27:44

does matter to them. I mean, obviously,

27:46

some people will think it

27:48

really matters to them how much they earn, and

27:50

they will spend their whole lives trying to maximize

27:52

their income and then realize at the end that

27:54

hasn't been worth it. But on the

27:56

whole, I think people do understand that well being, their well being

27:59

is what really does matter. does much to them. Right.

28:01

And it's interesting to think of well-being as a policy

28:03

lever, but also there's another debate here, which is around

28:06

kind of safety of democracy.

28:08

And I think, Jeffrey, you get

28:10

into that a bit with this

28:12

idea of a federalist papers as

28:14

a kind of manual for

28:16

public happiness. I'm curious, Jeffrey, how

28:18

you see the country faring on

28:20

that right now. It's

28:22

so striking that the founder's

28:25

main concern was demagogues who

28:27

would flatter the people into

28:29

seeking immediate gratification and exchange

28:31

for cheap luxuries would

28:33

surrender liberty to a Caesar

28:36

or a Cleon

28:39

who would install himself as a

28:42

president for life. And it's so

28:44

striking to see both Jefferson and Hamilton

28:46

fearing a demagogue. Jefferson actually fearing that

28:49

in the future an unscrupulous

28:51

demagogue might lose an election by a

28:53

few votes, cry foul and refuse to

28:55

leave office, Hamilton fearing that it would

28:57

take the form of a Caesar. For

29:00

both of them, personal

29:02

self-government was necessary for political

29:04

self-government unless citizens could resist

29:06

choosing the most factionate

29:09

candidate who would promise them

29:12

immediate gratification that they

29:14

would, the Republic would fall. And that's

29:17

why Washington at the end of his

29:19

life says without virtue, the Republic will

29:21

fall. And by virtue he means virtuous

29:23

self-mastery, learning the principles of liberty so

29:25

you can defend them and

29:28

having the humility to engage

29:30

in civil dialogue with those

29:32

you disagree with, once again

29:34

resisting immediate gratification so that cool

29:37

reason can slowly prevail. This is

29:39

the very philosophy of the American

29:41

system of government in America and around

29:43

the world. We are seeing demagogues

29:46

who are threatening to

29:48

subvert democracy by flattering

29:51

the people in precisely this way. And

29:54

I would argue in this debate that the

29:56

founders were correct that unless citizens can muster

29:59

that virtue. self-mastery and

30:01

find personal self-government, then

30:04

the republic will indeed risk falling

30:07

to demagogues and authoritarians. And

30:09

so you're arguing that it really comes from the

30:11

bottom up, that a virtuous leader

30:13

is not enough. It needs to be a virtuous

30:15

citizenry. How can you achieve

30:17

self-government on a wide scale unless

30:20

citizens can literally govern themselves?

30:22

And that's why Jefferson

30:24

and Washington and all the founders are

30:26

so keen on education. And they're not

30:28

sure the experiment will survive. And in

30:31

fact, many are quite pessimistic that the

30:33

people won't take the time to educate

30:35

themselves about the principles of liberty and

30:37

to vote wisely. And that's why Madison

30:39

is so excited about this new technology,

30:41

the broadside press, that will allow

30:44

citizens to publish complicated arguments like

30:46

the Federalist Papers and the newspapers so

30:48

that reason can slowly diffuse across the

30:50

land. And in our world

30:52

of Instagram and X or whatever it's

30:55

called and enraged to engage in a

30:57

media environment that's so polarizing, there's

30:59

a very serious question about whether

31:01

or not the founders were

31:04

too optimistic. And that's why it's so

31:06

urgently important that citizens at this crucially

31:08

challenging moment for democracy look to ourselves

31:10

and try to find in ourselves the

31:12

virtue of self-mastery that will be necessary to keep

31:15

the republic. Thank you for that, Jeffrey. It's very

31:17

passionate on that topic

31:19

and seems very urgent right now given the

31:21

stakes. Roger, I'm curious if you have a

31:23

different perspective. I think self-mastery is

31:25

desirable, but not in itself. It's

31:28

because people who have self-mastery and

31:30

autonomy are happy and there's a

31:32

very strong correlation between good government

31:35

and happiness or wellbeing. Thank you.

31:37

We're gonna wrap our discussion there. When we come back, we're

31:40

going to continue discussing this question,

31:42

the pursuit of happiness, virtue or

31:44

pleasure. And we'll be inviting in some

31:46

other voices to help probe at that

31:48

right after the break. Thank

31:54

you. Welcome

32:09

back to Open to Debate. We're diving into

32:11

this question of happiness and whether it's best

32:13

pursued through virtue, doing good or through

32:15

pleasure, feeling good. I'm

32:17

your moderator, Neema Raza. I'm joined by our

32:20

debaters here today, Jeffrey Rosen, the legal scholar

32:22

and author of the book, The Pursuit of

32:24

Happiness, and Roger Crisp, philosopher

32:26

and author of Sacrifice

32:28

Regained. We're going to

32:30

bring in some other voices now, members of the audience

32:33

who have been listening in on this conversation and who

32:35

will want to help probe it further, I think. So

32:38

first up, we have Helen Russell. She's

32:40

the author of The Year of Living

32:43

Danishly. And

32:45

the new book, The Danish Secret to Happy

32:47

Kids, is out July 9th. Helen,

32:49

the mic is yours. Thank

32:51

you so much. I wonder,

32:54

we haven't talked about inequality.

32:56

And I wonder, coming from the Nordic countries, I've

32:58

lived in the Nordic countries for 11 years now,

33:01

you know, the Nordic countries have popped the

33:03

happiness polls. And I wonder,

33:05

they're not nailing all of these 12 things that you talk

33:08

about. I just wonder how

33:10

much you can divorce happiness

33:12

from politics, reducing inequality. The

33:15

idea of deep breathing every morning sounds lovely, but feels

33:17

like a luxury for many of

33:19

us in the world, especially caregivers. I have three

33:21

small children, deep breathing in the morning, not an

33:23

option. So I'd love, yeah, inequality. The

33:26

semantics of that and how you feel like

33:28

the Nordic countries play out in

33:30

this respect. Wonderful. Well, a

33:34

crucial question and very important

33:36

to stress that this philosophy

33:38

of self mastery was the opposite of

33:40

the leadest for most of American history.

33:43

And it was so inspiring for me

33:45

to see great figures like Phyllis Wheatley,

33:47

the first published black poet who learned

33:50

about the classics from her enslavers,

33:54

studying with their children and wrote poems of

33:57

virtue that were claimed by

33:59

Washington. and all of London

34:01

society. And then there's Frederick Douglass,

34:04

who paid for boys

34:06

on the streets of Baltimore to teach him

34:08

how to read with bread after his wicked

34:10

master forbade him from learning how to read.

34:12

And then he bought with bread a

34:14

copy of this golden book, The Columbian

34:16

Orator, which had excerpts from the classics

34:19

and convinced him to be the

34:21

great establishment of his time. So this is

34:23

the opposite of an

34:26

elitist philosophy only available to

34:28

educated white men. It

34:30

has inspired freedom fighters from Phyllis

34:32

Wheatley to Douglass to Ruth Bader

34:34

Ginsburg to great figures of the

34:36

civil rights movement today. However, you raise

34:38

a really important practical question, what about

34:41

kids? And during

34:43

those child-raising years, simply

34:46

finding time in the day for

34:49

the deep reading and focus and reflection

34:51

that's necessary for this kind of growth

34:53

is a tremendous challenge. That is why

34:56

Justice Ginsburg always said that until men

34:58

and women take equal responsibility for child

35:01

rearing, women will never be truly

35:03

equal, but just carving out some

35:06

time during the day, an hour or

35:09

at least

35:12

for yourself, a room of your own.

35:14

And for deep reading and reflection, it

35:16

does require some support from a spouse

35:18

or from society, but it is crucial

35:20

for the pursuit of happiness. I

35:23

wonder in terms of the idea of bottom

35:25

up, I guess having lived in the Nordic countries

35:27

and being raised in Margaret Thatcher's Britain, I had

35:29

a real mind shift coming over to here. The

35:31

Nordic countries don't come to be the happiness polls

35:33

every year because it's just a magical place, so fairies

35:35

rule everything. It's because the taxes are high

35:38

and there's a welfare safety net that looks

35:40

after everyone, at least in theory. So

35:42

the idea of self-mastery and putting it all

35:44

on the individual and this idea of well-being

35:47

and developing ourselves is wonderful,

35:50

but it doesn't have to come from above too. I

35:55

don't think it's any coincidence that the Nordic countries

35:58

always come top. is

36:00

a connection there with inequality

36:03

in that inequality is highly

36:05

inefficient in that it essentially

36:08

once you start earning about above

36:10

$75,000, it's not going to make any difference how much

36:14

more you have. So it's a waste,

36:16

a real waste in terms of happiness,

36:19

but also it doesn't

36:21

feel great to live in a

36:23

society where there's a bunch of people going

36:25

around flaunting their wealth and

36:27

making you feel inadequate.

36:31

And I think it's important to remember also that there's

36:34

actually in itself nothing bad about inequality.

36:36

I mean, we could get rid of

36:38

inequality by making everybody equally badly off,

36:40

and that wouldn't improve things

36:43

a great deal. What

36:45

happens in the Nordic countries is that

36:47

everybody is more concerned about

36:49

the worse off than

36:52

in most other countries. And

36:54

that's a win-win situation, because if you

36:56

live in a society like

36:59

Norway, however well off you

37:01

are, you're going to do better. Thank

37:03

you, Roger. Appreciate that. Up

37:05

next, we have Nancy Sherman. She's a distinguished

37:08

professor and faculty affiliate at Georgetown University's

37:10

Center on National Security and the

37:12

Law. Nancy, welcome. So

37:14

let me ask Roger

37:16

a question that sort of bounces

37:20

off some of Jeffrey's remarks.

37:22

I mean, I love the Stoics. I write

37:24

about the Stoics. My last book was Stoic

37:26

Wisdom, but they are

37:28

an austere bunch. And

37:31

Cicero found the

37:33

Stoic self-therapy not very helpful

37:35

for his particular predicament, which

37:38

was the loss of his daughter and

37:40

childbirth. And so he's

37:42

railing against them a lot for

37:44

not leaving room for grief and

37:46

pain. So one

37:48

of the questions is, they've

37:51

got to leave room in this project of

37:53

self-improvement for the feelings that are

37:55

really hard and hard to digest

37:58

and metabolize. And that was a great question. leads

38:00

us a little bit to pleasure. And

38:03

the question is, so where exactly does

38:05

pleasure figure in this? And

38:07

I would add here, the sixth, I'm

38:09

a child of the 60s in some way. And

38:12

I love dancing to rock and roll.

38:14

It's the most fun sort of thing. I love

38:17

giggling with my grandchildren. I can't

38:20

think of a greater pleasure of

38:22

having them tell me a joke.

38:24

So the question is, Roger,

38:27

where do all those figure in

38:29

a good life? Thanks, Nancy. I

38:31

think you raise a very interesting

38:33

question about the negative emotions. So

38:36

for example, if somebody is a hedonist, and

38:38

somebody close to them dies, should they, should

38:41

they take some kind of medication to dull

38:43

the grief because there's

38:46

nothing good about it? I guess

38:48

I'm inclined to think not because of the

38:50

pleasure we take in friendship, and

38:53

the indirectness of the concern that

38:55

we have for pleasure. What

38:57

we're really concerned about is our friends and the

38:59

relationship with them. And it's great

39:02

to have those relationships. And

39:04

it would affect our current

39:06

relationships if we were just ready to

39:08

take a pill to to dull

39:10

the grief when one of them passes

39:13

away. But that's, that's not to

39:15

say that that grief is not bad. But

39:17

what about the pleasure, if I can

39:20

just persist for a half sec, is

39:22

the pleasure that you experience in this

39:24

whole range of things from sun on

39:27

your face to giggling

39:30

to being virtuous? Is that all the

39:32

same stuff so that you can just

39:34

experience happiness that way? Well, I'm

39:36

inclined to say yes. And there

39:38

are lots of different kinds of enjoyment,

39:40

but it's all it's all enjoyment. And

39:42

that seems to correlate with what neuroscience

39:45

is telling us. It's the same circuits

39:47

that fire when you're drinking

39:49

coke or listening to Beethoven. Thank

39:51

you, Nancy, for being with us. My pleasure. Now

39:53

we have Monica. Monica Parker is

39:55

the Wall Street Journal best selling author of

39:57

The Power of Wonder, co founder of Hatch

40:00

analytics, which focuses on remote

40:02

work. Monica, welcome. What

40:04

is your question for our debaters today? I'm

40:07

struck by both. Your arguments seem to

40:09

be so wrapped up in capitalism. And

40:12

in this capitalistic world, we've got

40:14

chief happiness officers, world happiness reports,

40:16

happy planet index. And yet the

40:18

reality is we're so terrible at

40:21

making ourselves happy. I think the

40:23

latest statistic is 280 million people

40:25

globally suffer from depression. But

40:27

I posit maybe that seeking happiness is

40:29

just folly. How can we suggest to

40:32

people that they should be happy in

40:34

poverty, they should be happy in Gaza,

40:36

people grieving or in burnout should

40:38

be happy. Defend to me why you

40:40

even believe we should be pursuing happiness,

40:43

as opposed to say a mixed emotion

40:45

like wonder, or awe

40:47

that people can achieve in any condition,

40:49

both good and bad. Jeffrey, maybe you

40:51

can answer that. And maybe from the

40:54

perspective of the founders in particular.

40:56

Wonderful question. You're quite

40:58

right that there's nothing necessarily compatible

41:01

about extreme capitalism with this

41:03

rational pursuit of virtue and

41:06

excellence. We've talked about the

41:08

ways that, as Daniel Bell

41:10

noted, the cultural contradictions of

41:12

capitalism may undermine the industry

41:15

and work ethic on which it relies

41:17

for success by creating a consumer culture

41:19

that demands immediate gratification. I do

41:22

think that the internet has made this so much worse.

41:26

So all this is to say that indeed

41:28

living according to reason, which is living

41:30

according to wonder and awe, which is

41:32

connecting to divine harmony, may

41:34

indeed be the duty

41:37

as well as the rights of

41:39

life, the core to the unalienable

41:42

right to pursue happiness. But the one

41:44

thing that's not, and I

41:46

think we're all agreed, is immediate

41:49

gratification for its own sake.

41:52

Thank you, Monica, for that question. We have

41:54

our final question here from Emily Austin, an

41:57

associate professor of philosophy at Wake Forest

41:59

University. Emily, welcome. What

42:01

is your question? I just

42:03

wrote a book on Epicureanism, as a

42:05

way of life defending Epicureanism, and so

42:08

I'm kind of team pleasure. I thought I would ask

42:10

you, Jeffrey, just to tell us a little

42:13

bit about this sort

42:15

of famous friendship between an Epicurean

42:17

and a stoic, John Adams

42:21

and Thomas Jefferson, both presidents. Jefferson,

42:23

at the end of his life, identified himself

42:26

as an Epicurean, and though

42:28

Adams adopted a kind of stoicism. And

42:31

so there have been these really close

42:33

friendships between stoics and Epicureans, like Cicero

42:36

had his best friend Atticus, and

42:38

so most people have thought that the stoics

42:40

and the Epicureans are very much alike, but

42:42

where they have differed over time is the

42:44

idea that the Epicureans denied providence and the

42:47

idea that the world was ordered for the

42:49

good and that we are a manifestation of

42:51

divine will and that

42:53

human beings are animals.

42:56

And so we come to arrive at virtue instrumentally

42:58

through our capacities for pleasure and pain

43:01

and navigating the world. And so I'm

43:03

kind of curious whether you think,

43:06

and this maybe goes to Roger

43:08

as well, whether that kind of

43:10

gives some sort of advantage to

43:13

Epicureanism over stoicism for some people who

43:15

do kind of reject the providential

43:18

model and accept a more modern scientific

43:20

model. Thank you, Emily. So

43:22

I suppose at first to Jeffrey and

43:24

then to Roger each kind of take

43:26

a minute to answer this question of

43:29

Emily's like, do we need some new conception? Thank

43:31

you for that wonderful summary, both of

43:34

the differences among Epicureanism and stoicism

43:37

and also the Adams-Joferson Fellowship. And you're

43:39

so right about their convergence.

43:41

And what's so striking was their

43:43

theological convergence that Adams summed up

43:46

his mature faith as love God

43:48

and all his creatures rejoice in

43:50

all things. I think you

43:52

also put your finger on the fact that

43:54

really the difference comes down to different conceptions

43:56

of human nature and the real consequence

43:59

of this disagreement. is in politics,

44:01

not in theology or philosophies

44:05

of happiness. Both are in favor of

44:07

self-mastery, as you say. They did disagree

44:09

about providence. Jefferson believed in an afterlife,

44:12

but not a providential God, whereas

44:14

Adams did. And the big difference

44:16

is the nature of government. You

44:18

have to have a strong state

44:21

in order to tame human passions,

44:23

as Adams insisted. Or

44:25

are people basically good? Can they be

44:27

perfected through education, and therefore, is a

44:29

night watchman state necessary to unshackle human

44:31

potential, as Jefferson did? So that's where

44:34

the rubber hits the road, I think.

44:36

But thank you so much for helping

44:39

us understand that both

44:41

of them are converging around a

44:43

classical understanding of happiness. Thank you, Jeffrey.

44:46

Roger, do you have anything to add to that?

44:48

Well, yeah, I mean, I think I would want

44:50

to distinguish between, on the

44:52

one hand, a particular view of happiness

44:54

or pleasure, where I would be more

44:57

inclined to side with the Cyrenaics

45:00

than the Epicureans.

45:02

I mean, I'm very disinclined

45:04

to think that pleasure

45:07

consists in the absence of pain. It's

45:10

the balance of pleasure over pain. So

45:12

to detach that kind of question from

45:14

the question about

45:17

providence and evolution,

45:21

and then I think once one's

45:23

done that, one can see that

45:25

something like a Cyrenaic position could

45:27

be attached to an evolutionary account.

45:30

Well, thank you for that. Thank you for that

45:32

question, Emily. And to all our questioners who joined

45:34

us today, Helen, Nancy, and Monica, we're

45:37

now going to move on to closing statements. This will be

45:39

the last remarks we have in this conversation.

45:42

And so, Jeffrey, you'll have the opportunity to go

45:44

first with a closing remark. Well, thank you

45:46

so much for this wonderful conversation. We've agreed

45:49

that the pursuit of happiness

45:51

consists in the pursuit of

45:54

virtue and pleasure, and that

45:56

virtue consists in self-mastery, and

45:58

self-mastery consists in taming our

46:01

unreasonable passions and emotions, like

46:03

anger and jealousy and fear, so we

46:06

can achieve the calm well-being that will

46:08

allow us to achieve our potential. I

46:11

am so excited to

46:13

have had my life transformed by

46:15

rediscovering this classical moral philosophy. I

46:17

was yearning for it when I

46:19

was in college and studying the

46:21

Puritans, who failed to persuade

46:23

me about the virtues

46:26

of a good life through predispination

46:28

or blind faith. It's

46:30

a marvelous inheritance that was really core

46:32

to American education for most of our

46:35

history. Middle school, high

46:37

school, college kids and law students

46:39

all read these great classic sources

46:41

and were inspired to achieve self-mastery

46:43

and to focus

46:46

on reading and growing

46:48

through books. And the big

46:50

takeaway that I just want to share with all of you

46:53

is the transformative power of deep

46:55

reading. A blessing of

46:57

COVID was to have rediscovered it. I'd really gotten out

46:59

of the habit of reading outside of my immediate

47:02

deadlines and work. And

47:04

the transformative universes that

47:07

are glistening and waiting for

47:09

us to rediscover just by setting aside an

47:11

hour a day to stop browsing

47:13

and reading is one

47:15

of the virtues and marvels of this internet

47:18

age where all of the wisdom of the

47:20

world is now free and online. So

47:22

happy reading. Thank you, Jeffrey, for those closing remarks

47:25

and also for the encouragement to read more. Roger,

47:27

you're going to have the final word here in this

47:30

debate. So please take a moment

47:32

for your closing remarks and convince us why

47:34

pleasure is the key to happiness.

47:37

I can't resist by reiterating my initial

47:39

claim, which was that almost

47:42

anybody is going to enjoy

47:44

and suffer. But

47:48

I would also like to point out how

47:51

many of the things that philosophers

47:53

and others have listed

47:55

as independently good turn

47:58

out to be things that we enjoy

48:00

or take pleasure in. So

48:03

for example, the ancients would

48:06

list virtue, they would

48:08

list relationships, friendships, family

48:11

relationships, knowledge. And

48:14

then in more recent times, people

48:16

have stressed the importance of accomplishing

48:18

something or achieving something with

48:20

one's life. These

48:22

are all things that people enjoy. And

48:25

I think on reflection, and particularly if

48:27

we think about a life without any

48:29

enjoyment in it, what we might call

48:32

an anhedonic life, which has plenty of

48:34

relationships and achievements and so

48:36

on, but contains no enjoyment. I

48:39

think on reflection, we can see that that

48:41

life is not a life that's good for

48:43

the person who's living it, because lives

48:46

are good for the people living those lives

48:49

are good because of the well being that

48:51

is the pleasure or

48:54

the happiness that we

48:56

find within them. So I think

48:58

these lists of

49:00

other goods are helpful because they tell

49:02

us which way to live our lives,

49:04

which things to aim at. But

49:07

it's an indirect way to achieve the

49:09

real good, which is well being or

49:11

enjoyment. Thank you very much, Roger, for

49:14

that. And that concludes our debate.

49:16

I'd like to thank our debaters, Jeffrey Rosen

49:18

and Roger Crisp. We so appreciate you showing

49:20

up, you approaching this conversation with an open

49:23

mind, and your thoughtful, your

49:25

brain thoughtful disagreement to the table. In short,

49:27

you're being open to debate. Thank you for being

49:29

here. Thank you. Thank you so much. And I'd

49:32

also like to thank our fellow authors and interrogators

49:34

for being here for bringing their provocative

49:36

questions to the table. So thank you,

49:38

Helen, Nancy, Monica and Emily. And finally,

49:41

a big thank you to you, the audience for

49:43

tuning in to this episode of open to debate.

49:46

Thank you for listening to open to debate.

49:48

As a nonprofit working to combat extreme polarization

49:50

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49:57

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49:59

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50:01

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50:03

Chief Content Officer. This episode

50:06

was produced by Alexis Pincrazi and

50:08

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50:10

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50:12

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50:14

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50:17

support. Millie Shaw is

50:19

Director of Audience Development. And

50:21

the Open to Debate team also includes Gabrielle

50:23

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50:25

and Devin Shermer. Damon

50:28

Whittemore mixed this episode. Our

50:30

theme music is by Alex Clement. And

50:32

I'm your host, Neema Raza. We'll see you next

50:35

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