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whenever you wanna talk the hundred

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to seven to thirty nine hundred

0:55

i'm oprah winfrey welcome to supercell

0:58

conversations the podcast

1:01

i believe that one of the most valuable

1:02

Gifts, you can give yourself is

1:05

time taking time

1:07

to be more fully, present your

1:10

journey to become more inspired

1:12

and connected to the deeper world

1:14

around us starts right

1:17

now. For over

1:19

35 years. She's inspired Millions

1:22

around the world with her teachings

1:24

on love, kindness and compassion,

1:26

prolific author Buddhist

1:29

nun and a pioneer of

1:31

the mindfulness movement. hematology

1:34

the first met in twenty fourteen when

1:36

we discussed her best selling spiritual guide

1:39

when things fall apart heart advice

1:41

for difficult times now

1:43

her first book and seven years call welcoming

1:46

the unwelcome whole hearted living

1:48

in a broken hearted world invite

1:50

readers to embrace suffering to

1:52

strength and resilience hammer

1:55

believes that beneath anger confusion

1:57

and fear is a basic goodness

1:59

that the next us all emma

2:02

addresses the recent sexual abuse allegations

2:05

lodged against the buddhist community though

2:08

i'm happy to welcome you to my

2:10

children to supercell

2:12

sunday in my garden in my flower garden yeah

2:15

so beautiful and it's wonderful

2:17

that you know the last time we spoke about

2:20

your book i think was like five years

2:22

ago when things fall apart yes

2:25

and i had the pleasure of having

2:27

dinner with you last night and he

2:29

was sharing how remarkable

2:32

is is still that

2:34

all over the world you get messages

2:37

from people who have seen or read

2:40

that that books and

2:42

how it is move them how does that make you

2:45

seal in terms of your

2:47

dharma work here on earth

2:50

well in may feel good i guess that's

2:53

the simple answer you know because

2:55

honestly sometimes people talk to

2:57

me about their their legacy

3:00

and what they want their legacy to ban things

3:02

like that i realize

3:04

i don't over think that way what

3:06

i care is about individual

3:08

lives what

3:11

i say might impact their lives

3:13

in such positive way in no particular

3:15

cause there's so much suffering and

3:17

if it actually has alleviated someone

3:19

suffering so hurt

3:21

and okay that's what gives me

3:23

some really deep satisfied

3:25

should you know what is so interesting one of my most

3:28

, teachers was maya angelou angelou

3:31

one of the things that she said to me when

3:33

i come back from opening my school and

3:35

i said meyer my school is gonna

3:38

be my greatest legacy and she said you have

3:40

no idea what's your legacy will be censored

3:42

be is every life

3:44

is touch it's not about

3:47

institutions are your name on something

3:49

was it's every life you touch one

3:51

of the same is true for every person

3:54

who has read when things fall

3:56

apart every person has been

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soul so now

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written when i first saw the title welcoming

6:13

the unwelcome i went with a little last

6:17

, was was , less

6:20

that's exactly what about whereas now

6:23

that is that whereas now title because

6:25

i don't want to welcome so you

6:27

begin chapter one chapter one is title

6:30

begin with a broken heart

6:33

now i have to tell you that is what most

6:35

of us are trying to his name is

6:37

a broken heart why do you say

6:40

start with a broken heart

6:42

well it has to do with contacting

6:45

that part of the human life with that

6:47

the rubble in canada the

6:49

end of that shared by

6:51

other people like empathetic sense

6:54

of other people born of vulnerability

6:57

and tenderness and some somehow

6:59

if if you get in touch with they're

7:02

the real suffering and that there isn't the world

7:04

that's what i kind of mean by a broken hearts

7:06

are tender hard sell a genuine

7:09

hard if you get in touch with that

7:11

if it's like a link with humanity

7:14

you know and that's the healing part the

7:16

interconnectedness with other people

7:19

based on having to the in their

7:21

shoes and they stood in your shoes

7:23

or however one expressive so

7:27

the book talks about

7:29

how we can strengthen our resilient and stay

7:31

connected with each other when we when we

7:33

want to withdraw and i

7:35

know there was a point where you had some

7:38

of your students tell you about

7:40

what happens when they are in

7:43

confusion distress any

7:45

form of suffering and what did you

7:47

learn from that namely the attitude

7:50

is this is a whole a

7:52

part of penicillin

7:54

the vulnerable parts in the the

7:56

tender for the part that

7:59

hurts and it's very

8:01

linked with support that knows how to laos

8:04

and feel compassion their own kind of mix

8:06

thin doesn't make sense

8:07

it's all the sense and sell it you

8:10

know how to love unless you also know how to hurt

8:12

satellite so when things show

8:14

up for us that are uncomfortable

8:16

that cause us to suffer and

8:18

by suffer meaning we wish we

8:20

weren't in this predicament who has his ass yeah

8:23

or cause stress anxiety

8:26

confusion anxiety sense of hopelessness

8:29

where do i go what's the first thing

8:31

we should do i acknowledge what

8:33

you're

8:33

during a nice what you're saying

8:35

that is what you mean by welcoming the

8:38

meanwhile first assists acknowledging and

8:40

you know welcome the might be able to load is

8:42

as having knowledge thing is like what's

8:45

your angle all i'm saying is that everything and new

8:47

is shutting down guess and then terminus

8:49

racing one hundred miles an hour saying if

8:51

they are for therefore the or i'm a

8:53

horrible person or something like

8:56

that

8:56

the first thing is to get get as quickly

8:58

as you can to acceptance

9:00

yeah to recognize and then it's

9:03

almost like if you were doing and steps although

9:05

it kind of comes together recognize

9:07

and then welcome embrace

9:10

except the

9:12

, hurting and in that direction you know

9:15

i think the next thing is honest

9:18

there are various things it could

9:21

you can do at that point on

9:23

, instance instance to your

9:25

to your just

9:28

located , your body and

9:30

i talk your lot about contraction

9:33

and then learning how to open

9:35

that are led are to expand because

9:38

if you're afraid angry any

9:40

of those are the coast have coast feeling if you

9:42

go to your body your feel it as tightness

9:45

you know it's just that's how it feels

9:48

i guess

9:50

it's like making friends with that tightness

9:52

are being kind to

9:54

that titan you actually talk about breathing

9:57

it in then exhale

9:59

and out right

10:01

yeah it's a practice traditional a buddhist

10:04

practice of thailand is that

10:06

when someone else is suffering here willing to

10:08

take it and that they don't have to

10:10

have at that point of ah

10:13

at most advanced but i've

10:15

taken that and worked and lot with lot with the

10:17

idea that when the pain is their say

10:19

you acknowledge then

10:22

of way that you could welcome the from this

10:24

is to breathe it in like open

10:26

to lend itself is i mean like the exact opposite

10:28

the what you wanted to do have those who was

10:31

evident evidently what you wanna do is

10:33

reject that thing apps and

10:35

causing you have instead

10:37

there's something in there that says ah

10:40

maybe i could do something different

10:43

maybe i could move towards it so

10:45

welcoming the unwelcome you write

10:48

about that the buddhist principle of

10:50

basic goodness the

10:52

, that human beings are fundamentally

10:54

good and loving and

10:56

we naturally want to be there for others honor

10:59

for others eighty right not understanding

11:01

the basic goodness of are true nature

11:04

as at the root of all of our suffering it

11:06

lies beneath everything we do to harm

11:08

ourselves and others

11:10

how so when you read that that's

11:12

what what are you here what i hear

11:15

is that no matter what the world looks

11:17

like on the exterior and

11:19

we are fed a daily

11:23

those of negativity cause that's

11:26

what the news is and

11:28

, are surrounded by by

11:31

that tell you all the time that things

11:33

are going wrong and

11:35

what it says to me is to

11:37

remember that all of that is just that facade

11:40

that's just a cover as for what's

11:42

really inside

11:43

that's right yeah okay so that is

11:45

really what i'm getting is nice and us

11:48

me a question actually last night about

11:51

ah if you're trying to communicate what's

11:53

most important thing to try to communicate

11:55

thinking about it afterwards i thought absolutely

11:58

the most basic saying that people feel

12:00

bad about themselves and and if there's

12:02

any way to communicate in a way that

12:05

they can be taken in and share it that

12:07

actually they are complete just as

12:09

they are and that there is nothing

12:11

wrong with them and their temporary

12:14

a call for a temporary or

12:17

things things way but that's like wow

12:20

you know they they pass and the fundamental

12:23

states is always open

12:25

and fresh as unbiased

12:27

and it's always there but

12:29

so in other words those what

12:31

we call or false or failing

12:34

sir stuff are temporary and removable

12:37

and even though how

12:39

do you work with those not by getting

12:42

rid of them but by coming to know them really

12:44

well shares his exes

12:45

that you say when you look at other people

12:47

and you say the i think it is it that

12:49

has like nine just like me yeah i've

12:51

taken into that could be me you know

12:53

we've all use the phrase there but for the grace of

12:56

god that but i love this

12:58

idea of when you see

13:00

something going on with another person

13:02

in even if you're just stuck in traffic

13:04

and you're getting upset with him you do they just

13:06

like me exercise than fair that i

13:09

like that well it is really

13:11

helpful the can do it any time

13:13

like for instance

13:16

sitting and waiting you know for anything

13:18

you can just look around and people in and

13:21

out whether they seem stressed or happy

13:23

or whatever you can see just like mean we

13:25

are allied just , me that

13:27

person really wants to be lost and

13:30

person doesn't want to suffer

13:32

suffer person he doesn't want physical

13:35

pain and person doesn't one hatred

13:37

coming towards her it's just like that person

13:39

just like name just like just and

13:41

that so it's very very useful as like

13:43

her in these irritating situations

13:45

like a traffic jam it's so

13:48

the airports part it's so frustrated at

13:50

the online so you sit there

13:53

yeah he just start instead

13:55

of filming which gets you

13:57

nowhere except more humane

13:59

you are warming you start looking at people

14:02

now their cars or at

14:04

other people sitting in the airport and thing and

14:06

it's just like me these people had some

14:08

place to go and they're being delayed

14:11

and just like me they are fretting about

14:13

it and just like nice you know

14:15

they're just human beings want

14:17

to be where they are trying intel

14:20

and and just like me it would really be

14:22

helpful if there was some other way

14:24

they could deal with it you know that so

14:26

so here's some advice enough for the advice

14:28

would be start seeing

14:30

the humanity of all people the car

14:33

i would have to say that one is it seems

14:35

that the great lessons of having

14:39

talk show every day for twenty five

14:41

years and interviewing over thirty

14:43

seven thousand people one on one i

14:46

got that just like me saying i understood

14:48

i didn't is humans that this is

14:50

human common

14:52

denominator of our experience

14:54

all apps and just like be everybody wants

14:56

to be heard and just like me

14:58

everybody wants to know that they man

15:00

that's right yeah you know i often say

15:02

to people who are having trouble with their

15:04

parents and i'm in often

15:06

your parents like mortgage rates and

15:09

, you know they they like aren't gonna

15:11

aren't and their dreading it and i said well

15:13

i got advice once

15:16

enter into their life instead

15:19

, struggling against as being resentful

15:21

that they're non interest in your life just

15:23

for that keep the visit short

15:25

and for a couple of days they're just

15:28

sit and and enter into their life

15:30

do whatever they're doing like watching television

15:32

all day long wish you'd rather be out playing canister

15:35

some some the other thing is

15:37

ask them about their childhood

15:40

yes ask them about their about

15:43

and i said really it's worth taking a

15:45

tape recorder because for you start

15:47

hearing about your mother or father childhood

15:50

asthma and the i do that

15:52

my mother toward the end i actually when

15:54

my mother where a we knew that my mother was

15:56

dying and wouldn't be on earth much

15:58

longer was making

16:00

transition i went back to milwaukee

16:02

and milwaukee sat in the room she was

16:04

in this little room where she watches

16:06

television where the temperature wisley

16:08

eighty seven degrees

16:11

and she's watching

16:12

the bold and the beautiful and the young other residents

16:15

all day long and watching the games yes

16:17

and i just sat in the room and

16:20

to set animals that are and and

16:22

sometimes it's enough just

16:24

to be there as right

16:26

and i had an interesting experience was with my

16:28

mother because she is she retired

16:30

she and my father retired to mexico but

16:33

, she died oh maybe

16:35

six years before she left mexico and

16:38

other

16:39

why would go down there in ibiza stein

16:41

to get out and walk in the markets and everything

16:44

she was staying around all the shades

16:46

drawn

16:47

then again if watching television like

16:49

she was in mexico all right you know sort

16:52

of and have felt like my feeling

16:54

was so i got this advice just enter

16:56

her well so i went and and guess

16:58

you things so hot in there is so daria

17:01

some sitting there and basically i am

17:03

just so restless and incest almost

17:06

have to find myself down to just kind of

17:08

they present because i want

17:10

to get out after while

17:13

i just started to relax and

17:15

after while it got kind of interesting

17:17

actually a elements allow the door

17:20

when open and someone with come in and be like

17:22

a little vignettes of life hello

17:24

and interact with her or bring or something

17:27

or something and i'd see her reaction

17:29

that person's reaction then they'd leave and we'd

17:32

be back in the so the status quo

17:34

of the board own blood and but

17:36

after but after it became like being enough

17:40

a shower are now being on

17:42

stage and ah i

17:44

almost like almost theater piece theater piece know what to say

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except that it's changed from day

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something i say got into a threat

17:53

you became present enough

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certain point and in certain states

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so a buddhist principal we hear about

20:05

his enlightenment and i think that

20:07

enlightenment i remember

20:09

when i was during the oprah show that

20:11

was that part of the mission statement that

20:13

we will were doing a show to

20:16

inform to enlighten

20:18

as well as entertain as lot of people get

20:20

intimidated by that word in the late and

20:22

very intimidating as it sounds like

20:24

sounds like unattainable unattainable

20:27

you , you have attained it enlightenment

20:30

know i i would not say say

20:32

would not say you would use

20:34

the helping us one us you

20:37

helping us get there when things wrong with i've

20:39

moved a long way in my life away

20:42

from being reactive and stock

20:44

and

20:45

hello rising and and

20:47

feelings and on separate from other people

20:50

but i don't maybe

20:52

the term as two grand if if

20:55

you were to say ah have

20:57

you in your lifetime ah ah

21:00

, you able to be more presence with

21:02

your own body and mind and

21:05

with other people and with situations

21:07

i'd say absolutely perhaps

21:09

only but i feel i've

21:12

just started on this adventure and in

21:14

our to if a little

21:16

have been to spain failing that way but

21:18

i felt this way for don't you think that the

21:20

ultimate enlightenment because

21:22

one of the things i remember when

21:24

my life changed immensely when i recognize

21:26

first of all that the

21:29

what i had referred to as god

21:31

my whole life you

21:33

know was not up in the sky

21:35

and taking names in

21:38

watch any like santa claus authentic analyst

21:40

and segment twice and then i

21:42

remember that that's that sense of

21:44

being opened up when i recognize

21:46

that god was in all that

21:49

the force of life by

21:51

whatever name you call it is in all

21:54

and that we are all connected

21:57

as and that felt kind of enlightening to

21:59

me well yeah there's the moment

22:02

of awareness as

22:03

furthermore i think i mentioned somewhere in the book

22:05

but as the and on buddhism been full of categories

22:07

and stuff like that yes they say when you

22:10

have the first enlightenment experience

22:13

is called as it has this is listening

22:15

first bully yeah so then that's

22:18

just beginning right there are levels

22:21

and love leatherman levels and miles and

22:23

, ah people

22:25

ask me why did you become a nun you know and

22:28

and i say well definitely i never

22:30

would have chosen as like like

22:32

a non had a lot of israel negative

22:35

associations but i saw

22:37

it as it , my whole

22:39

life to going to

22:40

pretty prefer to spend your greatest awakening

22:42

so far would you say

22:44

why had any number of times

22:46

when i

22:48

, say times said still

22:50

were ah i just had

22:53

that profound sense of timeless

22:57

ah on the i now use the word

22:59

now this word now meaningful

23:02

way president or not just

23:04

it's not just mindfulness like noticing

23:07

the colors of the flowers has something although

23:09

that's part of it or for it's

23:12

also quite important really of

23:14

feeling of oz

23:16

this moment of time oh

23:22

yeah

23:23

so that that that's an experience

23:26

an ongoing spare inside had the

23:28

other ongoing experience that

23:30

i have is a feeling

23:32

of on i

23:35

i've never know how to express this but like

23:39

that they are neutral

23:41

and alone lol all

23:44

the things we see and hear and everything or

23:46

neutral in the sense that some

23:48

for one person here if it and they

23:50

same is bad and the other person

23:52

here's the same thing and says it's good that's

23:54

what i mean by neutral is sort of like

23:57

it has its influence depending on whatever

24:00

your background in every night companies and

24:02

your interpretation that's right but it's neutral

24:04

satirized

24:05

how that was initially is very profound

24:07

experience because that allows

24:09

you to hear both sides excellent kinda makes

24:11

it painfully you can't not

24:13

hear both sides and the other thing is

24:15

that

24:16

when you gotta be enlightened to do that the when i first

24:19

i'm here to prove your and

24:21

i say i said ah when

24:24

i first had that inside

24:26

i just broke down and cried and cried

24:28

and cried and the reason was because

24:30

i said everyone is causing themselves

24:33

and others so much suffering just because

24:35

i don't understand they just

24:37

don't understand that so racism

24:40

sexism ah

24:43

all these things that costs

24:45

so much pain and suffering all

24:47

comes from thinking that

24:49

something that is just neutral as

24:51

fair

24:52

the or are threatening or

24:54

something like this story talking about one of the

24:56

great

24:57

awakenings or of life lessons did

24:59

, learn about karma or

25:01

did you already know about cora love what you write

25:04

on page thirteen you say say

25:06

word we speak and every action we perform

25:09

affects our future and gonna say

25:11

that again for the world every

25:14

word we speak

25:17

and every action we perform

25:20

affects our future but

25:22

where do words and actions come from they

25:24

all start from our mind

25:27

and when we indulge in resentment

25:30

or obsession or self

25:32

righteous thinking we create

25:34

several problems for ourselves first

25:36

we suffered the immediate pain of those thoughts

25:38

and emotions then we often act

25:41

out in ways that cause ourselves and

25:43

others harm finally we

25:45

reinforce a habit that we we'd

25:47

be better off without the

25:50

wider pretty good

25:54

wait you mean lies in like many

25:56

other data on paper no yeah

26:02

well ah v believe that's true i

26:05

know i know it's true they have

26:07

is actually

26:08

the third law of motion in physics i call

26:10

it isn't where every action there is equal and opposite

26:12

reaction me it is like physical

26:15

the scientific law every year

26:17

had a period of time you see about one

26:19

hundred days has know where i go into

26:22

solitary trade alone and lights just

26:24

with meditators how long are you alone how

26:27

long about holidays five

26:29

hundred s three

26:31

months and months and failure forces

26:33

i'm not i felt like i never see anybody

26:36

but i pretty much him alone and shot

26:38

talking to my favorite thing to do

26:42

i love seeing false yeah basically

26:45

i love

26:47

hi i , in in

26:50

i had this inside i was sitting there

26:52

and i'd gotten a ladder or i was worried about

26:55

whether the grandchildren or something it's not

26:57

started this little this and

27:00

, and and one

27:02

other things as one become very aware

27:06

of i my mind is that

27:08

the story line is that's going on you know

27:10

him so i was aware that i was feeling

27:12

that and that and the that it was he is acting

27:14

in a i was kind of tensing up and shop and

27:17

i thought he is an incomplete

27:19

solitude what you're doing is effect

27:21

well

27:23

now i don't know if you split agree with that

27:25

but it struck me that the via

27:28

the ripples go out the rebels

27:30

go out you know we know so much about

27:32

that that were an interconnected

27:35

and such as the as level because what

27:37

we're saying and doing stuff the ripples

27:39

go out so i realised even

27:41

without talking or be with another person

27:45

i see the rebels are going out yourself

27:47

how it matters you know it

27:49

really matters how we

27:52

how he and ah with how we respect

27:54

ourselves our kind to ourselves

27:56

as how we acknowledge how

27:59

we really have no that were causing

28:01

yourself

28:01

suffering by all the successes

28:04

and though we can't predict or control

28:06

what will come up next or how

28:08

we will feel about it we

28:10

can do something about how we

28:12

how we we can work on how

28:15

we relate to whatever comes

28:17

up that's exactly

28:18

we can relate to whatever comes up

28:21

and that's where our meditation

28:23

comes in because he because so

28:25

much more aware of

28:27

what you're thinking you're become so much more

28:30

aware that you that

28:32

your escalating seattle is likes

28:34

how kind of awareness against adults

28:37

mostly what happens or i

28:39

would save for myself and were

28:41

to let a lot of other people is

28:44

almost what you become aware of

28:46

his house where you're stuck the

28:49

will become aware of that year that you're obsessing

28:52

size or that you're working yourself

28:54

into a rage talking about your

28:56

sister in law for

28:58

herself or see that you're doing

29:01

that acknowledge that you're doing that and

29:03

then turned towards the feelings and cells

29:05

forget about the sister in law and the whole thing

29:07

just turned towards yourself and

29:10

get in touch with that know people

29:12

do ask me world has some

29:14

situations where that

29:16

and this would be like the those boys

29:18

and central park the five boys you know

29:21

where the situations are so horrendous this

29:23

this applies to serve the like that and

29:26

on i'm thinking and applies

29:28

because you become so much

29:30

more able the

29:32

effect of ancient for change

29:35

you because you're not blinding

29:37

yourself with yourself yourself with your emotional

29:40

reactivity you're really understanding

29:43

in your fully

29:44

everybody whatever it is your feeling

29:46

without making a bad but with

29:49

some kind of some attitude about air

29:51

and you're just a human being but on the other hand

29:53

you're not to attenuate with to rant

29:56

weather

29:56

the trouble aren't in your mind

29:59

and says

30:00

how in that process you

30:02

, more just open and

30:04

available for the people

30:06

in front of you as and you

30:08

don't see them as adversaries are enemies

30:11

you know even the people that do these

30:13

terrible things to people you

30:15

wish you could find a way to communicate

30:17

to their shoe and yes and and

30:19

yes more you're not blocked the

30:22

more you can communicate to their

30:24

this is the great lesson for us all and

30:27

, comes in welcoming the unwelcoming

30:30

you sure this that the person who is cause

30:32

you the greatest humiliation the

30:34

greatest pain spread the greatest suffering

30:36

and is also your greatest teachers and

30:38

my should be thanking that person

30:40

that's right well so someone was asking

30:42

about the other day that i really don't buy that

30:44

you know so it's and we had

30:46

we had we had a good conversation but let's

30:48

say

30:49

the to buy it or not they it though

30:51

you can open up to it

30:53

and and and traditionally that's called something

30:55

like of troublemakers as world

30:59

yeah barrier

31:00

in your yeah i share this story that

31:02

when i was moving from chicago

31:05

ah i was going through all

31:07

of my old stuff and found all

31:09

these love letters that i'd written

31:11

to someone in my twenties

31:14

and this

31:17

the i sat is

31:18

cause it weeping for the woman i

31:20

was and grateful that

31:22

i had come through whatever the is my

31:25

delusions were here and all

31:27

though said a thank you to

31:29

that guy and latter any sorry

31:31

i yeah yeah cause i thought well

31:33

what look look who turns out to be one of my greatest

31:35

teachers ask a person that i thought was causing

31:38

married yeah but

31:40

it takes time to get their takes to it's hard to see

31:42

it when they're there now when you're in

31:46

but i think enough people do have

31:48

a lot of wisdom and if if they read

31:50

a book like this one worked when things fall

31:52

apart or any some and ,

31:55

message kind of clicks us like move

31:57

this is interesting to me on

32:00

then ah our people

32:04

i stumble on the tools of as themselves

32:06

here in there and they already know it yeah

32:10

do we just keep getting reinforce

32:13

what we already know is that was going

32:15

on yeah endless and telling

32:18

stop doing yeah i

32:20

would say ah if you just look

32:23

down at humanity has on

32:25

, would go all the contents of the world

32:28

that mostly that's what's happening in just

32:30

keep reinforcing the view that you already

32:32

have and as you get older

32:36

older are what happens is your will just get smaller

32:38

and smaller is there more and more afraid

32:40

of war thing

32:42

i wanted to ask you about this this this

32:44

idea of things

32:47

getting reinforced and karma coming up

32:49

for you when the allegations of sexual abuse

32:51

had some bolo that were made

32:54

about made year ago there was there was york times

32:56

headline that read the king of shambala

32:58

buddhism is and done by abuse

33:01

report now we seen this behavior

33:03

in catholic priests in boy

33:05

scout leaders in hollywood executives

33:08

and now i think people would become

33:10

awaken to is there is no place where

33:12

it's not as and now

33:14

the buddhist community is been rocked by allegations

33:17

of said his rise as when that happened you

33:19

felt one hi

33:23

oh man you fail such as ah of

33:26

the start of failings you know i

33:28

felt angry with him i

33:30

felt deeply

33:33

saddened for

33:35

him and for the community

33:38

those are the main feelings i think mixed

33:40

together

33:41

when that happens in it comes in at

33:43

ibrox your world

33:44

yeah yeah yeah well that's like

33:46

of run pulling out

33:48

experience the ice now and

33:50

in that case i think twenty other reports came out

33:52

of sexual misconduct by other leaders and

33:54

survivor

33:55

yeah yeah and that situation is is

33:58

horrendous you know and like

34:00

your chest as completely up in the

34:02

area and now i mean i

34:04

i'm too old to athletes worry

34:07

about it too much the new teacher there

34:09

though right okay so

34:11

a senior teacher their yeah but i

34:13

also have another teacher at

34:15

, had for assistance ninety

34:18

nine nine i also or

34:20

outside of charlotte rather

34:22

than insula so in a way

34:25

a and as i say

34:27

things like solitary retriever of my most

34:29

favorite thing but for many people

34:31

they many completely are devoted

34:34

to him and i have always known him since

34:36

he was a teenager and we've always

34:38

had a strong heart connection but

34:40

on the other hand out it wasn't the same for

34:42

me as for these people that had

34:45

never had another teacher or anything another

34:47

for them to their their life

34:49

has just gone up in there and

34:51

they just gone imagine what that how

34:53

they're gonna go forward you know what

34:55

there's a process so you know

34:57

in a followup investigation there was an unnamed

34:59

woman and said that you

35:02

ignored her reports of sexual abuse

35:04

and that this allegedly happened

35:06

over fifteen years ago and she claims

35:08

that she reported being

35:11

, to you and you responded by saying i

35:13

don't believe you and if it's true

35:15

i suspect that you were into it and

35:17

then in september twenty eighteen after speaking

35:19

with her you issued this statement saying

35:22

i was able to tell her that i feel very differently

35:24

now i believe what she told me

35:27

and going forward going hope to be a better listener

35:29

and not again say such insensitive

35:32

and hurtful remarks to those who come

35:34

to come for help what did you

35:36

learn about yourself through this cause you

35:38

all had a phone conversation yeah

35:41

he had a long ago and phone conversation

35:44

the

35:46

well what did this teach you

35:48

yeah i

35:50

well it to turn me in again

35:53

to how important it is ah

35:57

allow people some world

36:01

but ah ah in

36:03

this whole

36:04

very important and movement that happening now

36:07

or the mitchell open which i i

36:09

really am in applaud

36:11

i'm glad it's happening but i

36:15

think that what when where it gets problematic

36:17

for me is when people ah

36:21

don't allow for someone to change they

36:23

just six them in their mine as demon

36:26

oil from completely banned

36:28

like frozen in time and they

36:30

don't they don't allow for

36:32

the fact that someone might learn from this and

36:34

why change you know so for me

36:36

that whole thing of that people

36:38

are treated , are not

36:41

fixed people are are

36:44

and dynamic and always and

36:47

and a half the help

36:49

so when you have the conversation with a woman

36:51

who would accuse you of not hearing or fifteen

36:53

years ago what did you say to her

36:56

they agreed person or the totally say

36:58

she knew while is calling and i said i'm

37:01

calling up to apologize but

37:03

first of all i i wonder if there's something

37:05

new that you want to say the moon and

37:07

then she talked for about half an hour of

37:10

telling me the whole situation again

37:12

and what has happened to her and her

37:15

and how she had come to me and what

37:17

she had felt like when she laughed here

37:20

is different this time of course

37:23

the whole and

37:26

and the thing is it is long enough ago that i

37:28

don't remember exactly how

37:30

i heard it said however ah

37:33

she she is she certainly

37:35

remember and that to and was the

37:37

most important thing is that she effort failed

37:39

heard and and she felt

37:42

as knowledge and that's

37:44

and in the i was very grateful she accepted

37:46

my apology and

37:47

the regret the way she perceived

37:49

you had handled it before

37:52

oh for sure yeah i mean i

37:54

i it says it was a wakeup call

37:56

i thought oh my goodness you know i have

37:59

kind of a rosy

38:00

picture of me going

38:02

, interviews with people and

38:04

then them being the better for it and

38:07

then you know that would i bet

38:09

this is not the only one that

38:11

left feeling not heard in

38:13

one way or another and own and

38:16

that on in isn't always a rosy

38:18

picture much my intention always

38:21

in for help you know that's always my intention

38:24

and not to hurt hurt

38:26

course i found a loyalist regret that i

38:28

had left her feeling so

38:31

traumatized

38:33

by the time he got up the phone what had happened we

38:36

had communicated from the heart

38:39

and we both felt so that we had

38:41

some sense of resolution and around

38:44

the relationship we both agreed to keep

38:46

in touch you know now

38:48

and then and ah i

38:50

said her if you feel like

38:52

at any time if things are painful

38:55

for you and you wanna talk to me i

38:57

think you can trust me and present time and

39:01

i said or thank you very much for

39:03

that and

39:04

like that you know so you think she felt hurt by

39:07

the government calculated that

39:09

yeah michelle

39:10

what do you think about this moment we're in we're talking

39:12

about this me to moment where women

39:15

, have have

39:18

endured you know sexual

39:20

harassment even sexual assault

39:23

feeling uncomfortable now

39:25

feeling like being

39:29

able to speak liberate

39:31

them in a way that they could not have been prior

39:34

to this moment citing his grace and

39:36

the other thing is there are countless

39:40

i was women whoa

39:42

didn't think

39:44

at the time it was so culturally

39:46

accepted the what happened to us

39:48

in the office or when happen to us in a marriage

39:51

or whenever i you know or husband that

39:53

our mutual friends or any of this stuff

39:56

and then years he has like a hushed

39:58

that listen i search thing

40:00

so our generation our generation's

40:02

my generate a me i think of the things that

40:05

i have allowed to be said to

40:07

me and the things and i holler

40:09

rated and what i put

40:12

up with in offices and what i eat

40:14

eat eat else that i feel

40:17

that for he even my

40:19

young daughters who are from south africa

40:22

they wouldn't halloween it when moment they

40:24

will i know yes my grandchildren

40:26

will i go and get our second not

40:28

assistant not as an act like and that on

40:30

a second abstract yeah astra and

40:32

i think that's a good thing every golly a good

40:34

thing that's really good sex but this is to

40:36

say against the only part of that that

40:39

i am and

40:41

i always want to address is when it gets

40:43

when you're mine gets frozen in salem becomes

40:47

right that sounds a demon or

40:50

and or like that like there's no room

40:52

to say maybe they'll change

40:54

or maybe but if there's been a criminal act

40:57

yeah emitters acts have consequences

40:59

and there's been a criminal act oh yeah

41:02

that's right but that doesn't mean that

41:04

that a woman

41:07

permanently it has to be like

41:09

that forever minutes a problem with

41:11

the criminal justice system is that they

41:13

are just fixed in there for what

41:15

their crime was in there is no very

41:18

little met and very few british prisoners

41:20

actually and draft trying to help

41:22

people move along i featured this

41:24

moves in stages you know

41:26

i've spoken

41:26

two of women who

41:29

have been assaulted and have just

41:31

now gained the of freedom

41:33

or the

41:35

ability actually for themselves to to

41:37

to to say what does happened and i've asked

41:39

this question about when when

41:42

is there room for forgiveness and

41:45

several of them have said to me we're not ready

41:47

to talk forgiveness yet we're just getting

41:49

our voices and out to be that's yeah

41:51

that's true

41:52

suggested everything goes in stages

41:55

of grief moves and states as like

41:57

lose and stages stage now

41:59

i think is

42:00

can we actually be heard and can

42:02

you hear me and that's what i say

42:04

matter yeah you

42:06

know i was talking to so we're

42:08

not ready to get there

42:10

i hear you get a hearing anything that

42:12

you have to allow this

42:14

moment the him you have the generation

42:16

gaps right that's right and

42:19

i also i it's been it's think education

42:21

for me to realize why

42:23

for instance for instance would allow

42:26

it to happen again yeah or why

42:28

a woman would never have spoken up or

42:30

only things which i really understand

42:32

now

42:33

so you say the wonderful irony about

42:35

the spiritual journey as it we find

42:37

it only leads us to become just

42:40

as we are

42:43

that the exalted state of enlightenment

42:45

is nothing more than fully knowing ourselves

42:49

and , world world

42:51

as we as in

42:54

other words the ultimate fruition

42:56

of this path is simply

42:59

to be fully human

43:01

and the ultimate benefit we can bring to

43:04

others is to welcome them

43:07

also realize their full humanity

43:10

just as they

43:12

are

43:14

so that came out on us an insight

43:16

about what i'm saying that things are

43:18

neutral yeah that you except

43:21

yourself currently today just

43:23

as you are like in spreading are frustrated

43:26

or as by learning

43:28

to know the clouds

43:31

then they mean you see their transparency

43:33

any realize the sky is already always

43:35

been there is what i mean by that

43:37

or oh i definitely know what you mean by that

43:39

as you know why fall and of my favorite moments

43:42

on on the planet as a

43:44

human beings is to be on the ground

43:47

and it's raining and you're at the airports

43:49

and you get on the plane and you

43:51

shoot above the clouds and

43:54

that moment where you shoot about this bob

43:57

the clouds and it's all

43:59

just like softness an

44:01

ally and you see the

44:03

sun and it was all

44:06

ways they ask right that's exactly

44:08

the moment at the on the commerce where

44:11

you beneath the clouds and then you

44:13

above the clouds use that way the moment i'm talking

44:15

about that's interesting i never even saw

44:17

our

44:18

exactly what i , that when

44:20

that happens i never saw that way before that's

44:22

exactly exactly out great

44:27

that's a famous as analogy

44:29

is witnesses that the sun is always

44:31

there and that we say oh

44:33

this sounds much earlier today okay

44:36

were experiencing our jails yes

44:38

it sounds non shiny and if he began

44:40

to adopt a different

44:42

way of like the sun is always shiny

44:45

and you can he can get to it but

44:47

not by getting rid of the clouds exactly

44:50

right but by seeing how ephemeral

44:53

the clouds are anyway getting

44:56

to know what blocks it with kindness

44:59

is magical and

45:01

that is what welcoming be unwelcome

45:03

is all that's right

45:05

full circle thank you so much thank you

45:07

for the last season

45:10

was

45:11

i'm oprah winfrey and you've been listening

45:13

to super soul conversations the

45:16

podcast you can follow super soul

45:18

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45:20

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conversation

45:35

the days are warming up and summer joy

45:37

is on the rise it's your time to

45:39

shine with black one product from

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target you can keep your smile popping

45:43

with vibrant colors from thread beauty

45:45

humidity proof your hair with my l organics

45:48

and make sure to protect your melanin glow

45:50

with some black girl sunscreen when

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you invest in yourself you're investing

45:55

and what's next for the black community stacked

45:57

up on black on brands at target

45:59

you and community together are black

46:01

beyond measure