0:02

Hi everyone and welcome to Coach's Corner.

0:04

I am so thrilled to have a Stephen

0:06

Kessler back. I had Stephen Kessler on the

0:08

show back in 2021 where we talked about

0:10

one of my favorite books of five personality

0:12

patterns. If you miss that episode I put

0:15

a link in the show notes. You can

0:17

still listen to this episode and gain

0:19

so much wisdom. You may want

0:21

to listen to the other episode

0:23

first so you get some foundations

0:26

but it doesn't really matter what

0:28

order. Just listen to him both.

0:30

You're going to love today's episode

0:32

because we really talk about how

0:34

understanding your personality pattern and understanding

0:37

your loved one's personality pattern, whether

0:39

it's an intimate relationship or a

0:41

parent or a child or whatever,

0:43

will lead to greater intimacy because

0:45

we connect with people based on

0:47

how we want to connect rather

0:49

than really understanding what they need.

0:51

Stephen goes through what the five

0:53

personality patterns are, and we give

0:56

some real tangible examples of how

0:58

these play out in relationships. Let

1:00

me tell you a little more

1:02

about Stephen Kessler. He has been

1:04

a licensed psychotherapist studying many different

1:06

healing modalities and maps of personality,

1:08

including character structure, the Inneagram, N.L.P.

1:10

Energy work, Thoughtfield therapy, and E.

1:12

Stephen has spent many years studying

1:14

the evolution of human consciousness. His best-selling

1:17

book, The Five Personality Patterns, deepens the

1:19

insights and character structure and for the

1:21

first time presents its map of the

1:23

human personality to the general public. Many

1:25

people claim that reading has been life-changing,

1:27

which has enabled them to fully understand

1:29

themselves and others. I put my hand

1:31

up to that. On this podcast we

1:33

talk about his newest book, How to

1:36

have Better Relationships, where he teaches you

1:38

the skills you need and actions to

1:40

take to connect. better with others based

1:42

on the five personnel patterns. The links

1:44

to all his courses and books and

1:46

the previous episode where I interviewed him,

1:48

we dove deeper into the five patterns,

1:50

are all linked up for you in

1:53

the show notes. Before we dive in, I

1:55

just want to remind you that we

1:57

are getting closer to the workshop that

1:59

Stefana... are teaching in North Carolina

2:01

at the Art of Living Center.

2:03

It's called for wounds to wisdom.

2:05

It's all about how to have

2:08

better relationships. And with yourself, with

2:10

others, and who couldn't use that?

2:12

I mean, honestly, I'm always up

2:14

leveling my relationships, intimacy, looking at

2:16

where I choose to protect and

2:18

not connect. It's an ongoing process

2:20

and this is going to be

2:23

a really really powerful weekend at

2:25

a beautiful place. We have a

2:27

few spots left. We're about to

2:29

close the doors. You can access

2:31

that link at christinehaster.com/retreat. All right

2:33

and now on to my interview

2:35

with Stephen Kessler. Stephen, welcome back

2:38

to the show. Thank you so

2:40

much for coming back on. Very

2:42

glad to be here. Thanks for

2:44

inviting me. Well, I'm really excited

2:46

to talk to you because I,

2:48

well, I really, when I first

2:50

learned about the five personality patterns

2:53

back in, I think I learned

2:55

about it in 2018 or 2019,

2:57

I was like, this makes a

2:59

lot of sense, especially when I

3:01

learned about the patterns that I

3:03

do, I'm rigid and merging, and

3:05

I actually would say I do

3:08

merging more, where rigid was my

3:10

leading pattern, you know? And it

3:12

just was such a great. framework

3:14

for me to work with myself,

3:16

for me to work with clients,

3:18

and for me to really to

3:20

understand myself and others. And why

3:23

I wanted to have you back

3:25

on is because you've written a

3:27

second book, how to have better

3:29

relationships, and using the insights of

3:31

the five personality patterns, and I'm

3:33

like, oh, this is great, because

3:35

now we can really talk about

3:38

the dance that these different patterns

3:40

do. I said in the intro,

3:42

you've been on the show before,

3:44

I encourage people to listen to

3:46

the previous podcast, but for the

3:48

people that are just going to

3:50

be excited to hear about relationships,

3:53

do you mind just doing a

3:55

brief overview of what the person,

3:57

like what personality patterns are? And

3:59

just a brief skim of the

4:01

five different ones, just so people

4:03

have context. I want to point

4:06

out also, are you aware that

4:08

you are partly responsible for me

4:10

writing this particular book? Oh, I

4:12

know, I'm not. Yeah, when I

4:14

was on your podcast the first

4:16

time, maybe it was during the

4:18

podcast, maybe it was afterward at

4:21

some point, you asked me about

4:23

applying this to couples' relationships. And

4:25

I thought to myself, this is

4:27

a really good question. Yeah, yeah,

4:29

yeah, yeah, real market for this.

4:31

And that's, that's how the

4:34

next thing I did was

4:36

the seven module video course,

4:38

which is now on my

4:41

website that people can get.

4:43

And then after doing the

4:45

video course and a couple

4:47

more years had had passed,

4:50

I turned it into a

4:52

book also. Amazing. Well, I

4:54

love that. Well, I, you know,

4:56

I love asking great questions and

4:58

I'm glad that it inspired this

5:01

because I'm benefiting from it.

5:03

So thank you. Thank you.

5:05

So in answer to your

5:07

question about the five patterns,

5:09

so the easiest way to

5:11

understand these five patterns is

5:13

to think about the safety

5:15

strategies that they arise from,

5:17

each of the patterns. is

5:19

the result of a person

5:21

using a particular safety strategy

5:23

over and over again because

5:25

it works for them to help

5:27

them feel safer in some kind

5:29

of difficult situation in their life.

5:31

And then the more they use

5:33

it, the more it becomes a habit

5:36

and it gets ingrained into their

5:38

body and their psyche. And then

5:40

they start to do it automatically

5:42

kind of like it or not.

5:45

So think about what it's like

5:48

to be a child. That as

5:50

kids, I mean, even little

5:52

kids, two years old, three

5:54

years old, all of us

5:56

have problems. And one of

5:58

the main problems have is

6:00

stuff happens around us that's

6:02

upsetting. We get scared. We

6:04

get angry. We get hurt.

6:07

We get whatever feeling you

6:09

want. And we don't have

6:11

many tools at those ages

6:13

to actually do anything to

6:15

try to feel better or

6:17

feel safer. If, for instance,

6:19

we're feeling scared. Right. So

6:21

these five safety strategies. are

6:23

the five things that a

6:25

kid can do to try

6:27

to feel safer. And starting

6:29

from kind of the earliest

6:31

one to the later ones,

6:33

one thing you can do

6:36

is leave the situation. Now,

6:38

even if you're still, you

6:40

know, a baby in arms

6:42

and you can't walk yet,

6:44

you can leave your body.

6:46

You can you know your

6:48

attention and your life energy

6:50

can go away From the

6:52

current situation and many people

6:54

learn to do that In

6:56

psychology we call that dissociation,

6:58

but it's a way to

7:00

get away from something that's

7:02

scaring you and a really

7:04

good strategy really is effective

7:07

absolutely The reason that people?

7:09

repeat a couple of these

7:11

strategies is those are the

7:13

ones that work for them

7:15

based on who they are,

7:17

what talents and skills they're

7:19

born with, what their family

7:21

situation is, what their cultural

7:23

situation is, often what their

7:25

gender situation is, and kind

7:27

of what's allowed for their

7:29

gender and not allowed. But

7:31

people do these safety strategies

7:33

because they work. So the

7:36

second one is what any

7:38

baby does, especially during the

7:40

nursing stage, and that is

7:42

reach out for help. Try

7:44

to connect. Try to connect.

7:46

with someone who's bigger, stronger,

7:48

and can help you, can

7:50

take care of you, can

7:52

protect. you can feed you

7:54

if you're hungry or soothe

7:56

you if you're scared to

7:58

protect you. So first one's

8:00

leaving, second one is merging,

8:02

connecting, reaching out for other

8:04

people. Third thing you can

8:07

do is you can pull

8:09

your energy in and send

8:11

it down in your body,

8:13

even send your awareness down.

8:15

Not only into your lower

8:17

body, but even into the

8:19

ground underneath you, you can

8:21

hide there. This is a

8:23

way to when you can't

8:25

dissociate, when you can't get

8:27

away, or you're not big

8:29

enough yet to physically run

8:31

away, you can still hide.

8:33

You can go somewhere they

8:36

can't find you. Right? So

8:38

this is the enduring pattern.

8:40

You hunker down and hide

8:42

and let the storm blow

8:44

over. kind of become invisible

8:46

in some ways. Becoming invisible

8:48

is one of the main

8:50

talents. People who are good

8:52

at this pattern are literally

8:54

able to sit there in

8:56

a class or in at

8:58

dinner with their friends or

9:00

with parents or whoever. They're

9:02

in plain sight, but they

9:04

have in some way become

9:07

less visible because they're not

9:09

putting out. any energy. They're

9:11

not making any statement of

9:13

I'm here, I like this,

9:15

I don't like that. It's

9:17

all the energy is pulled

9:19

in and other people will

9:21

stop noticing them. Yeah. I've

9:23

heard stories where the parents

9:25

look, you know, the parents

9:27

were talking about something. They

9:29

had told the kids to

9:31

go to bed. And they

9:33

had thought the kids did

9:36

go to bed, but one

9:38

didn't. One stayed and got

9:40

invisible. And then the parents

9:42

are talking about adult stuff

9:44

like their sex life or

9:46

whatever it was. And after

9:48

a while, they noticed this

9:50

one kid is still there.

9:52

And they looked over and

9:54

they said, what are you

9:56

doing here? You're not supposed

9:58

to be here. That

10:01

was a child, I heard that

10:03

story, from a woman who got

10:05

really good at pulling in,

10:08

getting invisible, doing this

10:10

enduring pattern. So that's the

10:12

third one. You can go

10:14

invisible, you can hide, you

10:16

can endure. And you do

10:18

that by pulling your energy

10:21

in and down. The fourth one

10:23

is the opposite. Instead of

10:25

pulling your energy down, you

10:27

pull it up. you pull up as

10:29

much energy in your body as

10:32

possible, and you pull it up

10:34

into your upper body, and then

10:36

you push that energy out at

10:39

other people to try to intimidate

10:41

them or influence them. If you're

10:43

in a fight, this is really

10:46

helpful. Because if you hit them with

10:48

a big ball of energy, a

10:50

big wave of energy, it'll

10:52

not come off balance a

10:54

little bit. It'll disorganize them

10:56

a little bit. And maybe

10:58

you can win the fight.

11:00

Maybe you can take control

11:02

of the situation. But it's

11:04

a way to try to get

11:07

bigger and stronger and

11:09

dominate the other people. So

11:11

this is known as the

11:13

aggressive pattern and the aggressive

11:16

safety strategy. You can't

11:18

do that usually until

11:20

you're a little older, more

11:22

like at least two years old,

11:25

maybe three, four years old.

11:27

You know, still little. Still

11:29

very little. When a kid

11:31

is two years old or 18

11:33

months in that range, new

11:35

abilities come online. The kid

11:37

is not just able to

11:40

walk. They also develop a

11:42

kind of inner strength and

11:44

they develop inner will. And they,

11:46

you know, it becomes like, this

11:48

is what I want. Yes, I have

11:50

a two-year-old. You have a

11:52

two-year-old, so you can speak

11:55

to this with passion and

11:57

current experience. You've seen this

11:59

happen in. Yeah. So it's

12:01

like the aggressive pattern develops

12:03

in a kid who's able

12:05

to win fights, and the

12:07

enduring pattern develops more in

12:09

a kid who is not

12:11

able to win fights. Maybe

12:13

mom and dad insist on

12:15

winning all the fights. And

12:17

if you can't win, you

12:19

know, stop fighting. Yeah. Just

12:21

disappear. Hunker down and disappear.

12:23

Right. So those are the

12:25

first four and then the

12:27

fifth one is known as

12:29

the rigid pattern and this

12:31

again this happens just a

12:33

little bit later more like

12:35

three four five six years

12:37

old and this is an

12:39

attempt to be the child

12:41

that your parents your mom

12:43

and dad your whoever is

12:45

taking care of you wishes

12:47

you are You want to

12:49

be a good boy or

12:51

a good girl, exactly the

12:53

kid that they want. So

12:55

you learn their rules and

12:57

standards for behavior, and you

13:00

do what they want. You

13:02

learn to perform. So you're

13:04

not paying attention so much

13:06

anymore to your heart or

13:08

your own personal desires. You're

13:10

paying attention to what they

13:12

want you to be, and

13:14

you're performing that way. You

13:16

know, you said something interesting.

13:18

You said, you know, kids

13:20

don't have, when we're so

13:22

young, we don't have the

13:24

tools. And I so agree

13:26

with that, and I was

13:28

also thinking, that's right, because

13:30

the biggest tool we have

13:32

as children is the ability

13:34

to be present. And a

13:36

complete access to our raw

13:38

emotion. Right? Like a more

13:40

like what is really happening

13:42

without like a lot ton

13:44

of subconscious programming. So that

13:46

like unbridled self-expression and if

13:48

those two things don't feel

13:50

safe like if we don't

13:52

feel safe enough to be

13:54

present and we don't feel

13:56

safe enough to have the

13:58

unbridled self-expression are two power

14:00

tools like the tools that

14:02

all of us are trying

14:05

to reclaim as adults you

14:07

know be present and be

14:09

fully self- expressed they're completely

14:11

you know put on mute.

14:13

And so that's why I

14:15

love personality patterns so much

14:17

because it gives us a

14:19

framework of like when those

14:21

two things, ability to be

14:23

present, which requires safety and

14:25

ability to be expressed and

14:27

be safe to be seen

14:29

and heard. And those are

14:31

taken away. We spend our

14:33

whole life trying to recover

14:35

them, but we develop this

14:37

strategy to try to get

14:39

it. And the thing about

14:41

this strategy, it does the

14:43

opposite of what we really

14:45

want. It does more the

14:47

protect than the connect. So...

14:49

I have used personality patterns

14:51

since 2008 with clients and

14:53

in our coaching institute and

14:55

it's easy to identify, you

14:57

know, where people are now,

14:59

they show up. So for

15:01

people that are listening, and

15:03

you have a very thick

15:05

book on this, so we

15:07

really just skim the surface

15:10

by personality patterns. But for

15:12

people listening, they're going, well,

15:14

I relate to all of

15:16

those, how do they pick

15:18

the leader, you know, the

15:20

one they do the most?

15:22

Right. This is a really

15:24

good question. So the way

15:26

to discern which patterns you

15:28

go into and remember a

15:30

person typically does two patterns,

15:32

sometimes three. I have not

15:34

known anyone who does four

15:36

or all five or even

15:38

anyone who only does one,

15:40

although some people do one

15:42

of their two patterns so

15:44

strongly that everyone around them

15:46

thinks, holy crap, man. I

15:48

hear this is the only

15:50

one for you. But the

15:52

way to tell which patterns

15:54

you go into is to

15:56

watch yourself and ask your

15:58

friends and family. What they

16:00

see, when you get distressed,

16:03

starting from your

16:05

feeling safe, calm,

16:08

comfortable, contented, peaceful,

16:10

things are fine,

16:12

right? No problem.

16:14

Starting from there, and

16:17

then something's going a

16:19

little wrong. You're getting

16:21

a little frustrated, a

16:24

little annoyed, a little

16:26

pissed off, and at some

16:29

point. You'll probably start

16:31

to do one of

16:33

these five safety strategies

16:35

Leaving merging enduring

16:38

Aggressive strategy or

16:40

the rigid you'll do one of

16:42

those to try to feel safer

16:44

to try to kind of manage

16:47

your inner state So either dissociate

16:49

you'll try to like You know

16:51

make somebody else okay, or connect

16:53

with somebody else to get that

16:55

right you'll just go invisible You'll

16:57

just hunker down and just kind

16:59

of turn off kind of just

17:01

shut down hide You'll act out

17:03

and react or you'll try to

17:05

control you say that's rigid like

17:07

hypervigilant try to control Well

17:10

control is more the aggressive pattern.

17:12

Uh-huh rigid is trying to be

17:14

the good person who gets praised.

17:16

Okay, it's not so much controlling

17:18

the other person, but it's very

17:20

much controlling yourself controlling yourself. Is

17:23

there like a wanting to

17:25

be right in that or

17:27

is that more aggressive? Absolutely.

17:29

Yeah, okay. Absolutely. Because

17:31

what we all develop an

17:33

inner critic, yeah, and the

17:36

inner critic is literally the

17:38

recorded voices of mom, dad,

17:40

Aunt Susie, whoever was taking

17:43

care of us, right? Babysitters,

17:45

teachers, first couple of grades.

17:47

We've recorded all their voices.

17:49

Every time they said, do

17:51

this, don't do that. Good

17:54

boy, bad boy, good girl,

17:56

bad girl. We recorded all

17:58

that. And then. our mind

18:00

kind of mushes it all into

18:02

one inner voice that tells us

18:05

what to do to be the

18:07

good kid that they want. So

18:09

the voice of your inner critic

18:12

is not your own voice. It's

18:14

those other people's voices telling you,

18:16

you know, stand up straight, comb

18:19

your hair, don't talk with your

18:21

mouth full, don't hit your brother,

18:23

don't run with scissors, right? Be

18:26

polite, say yes sir and no

18:28

sir, say thank you and please

18:30

say all that stuff. And isn't

18:33

it also like how we heard

18:35

our parents criticizing that are themselves

18:37

and even others? Yeah, any judgment

18:40

we hear, right? It's like, oh

18:42

yeah, we can, you can inherit

18:44

inner critic because you're recording all

18:47

their voices. Right, because I have

18:49

clients who are like, well, I

18:51

don't know I have a credit,

18:54

a under critic. My mom was

18:56

awesome, but she was really hard

18:58

on herself, so. And for some

19:01

people, they, I've noticed this in

19:03

therapy as we tease this out,

19:05

they discover that not only is

19:08

their inner critic identifiable as the

19:10

voice of mom or dad or

19:12

whoever it was, but it may

19:15

even speak in their language, you

19:17

know, maybe if they were raised

19:19

in a different language, it speaks

19:22

that language. Or it speaks to

19:24

them in an accent or a

19:26

dialect that their parent had. Wow.

19:29

It's so pervasive. I remember a

19:31

young man from Korea whose mom

19:33

raised him in Korea. So he

19:36

grew up in America, but Korean

19:38

was the first language he heard

19:40

from his mom, and then he

19:42

learned English, you know, from his

19:45

friends, age three, four, five. And

19:47

it was very clear to him.

19:49

His inner critic was mom's voice,

19:52

and it was in Korean. Yep.

19:54

That makes a lot of sense.

19:56

Yeah. One, I just want to

19:59

notice that as you're watching this

20:01

increase in your inter- level of

20:03

distress and that there's some point

20:06

where you go into one of

20:08

these patterns one of these safety

20:10

strategies kicks in. If you watch

20:13

what you do as you get

20:15

even more distressed and more distressed

20:17

and more distressed there will be

20:20

a second threshold where you probably

20:22

switch from your initial pattern into

20:24

what I often call your backup

20:27

pattern. And it can be a

20:29

very different strategy. Yep. Yep. It

20:31

can even be an almost different

20:34

strategy. There are some people whose

20:36

initial safety strategy is to hunker

20:38

down and hide. They pull in,

20:41

they go quiet, not talking, not

20:43

fighting. And if you push them

20:45

far enough, it changes to the

20:48

aggressive pattern. And they break out

20:50

and it's like, now it's war.

20:52

Yeah. My husband does the opposite.

20:55

He fights. He fights. And then

20:57

he. Oh, and then he goes

20:59

quiet. Then he disappears. Yeah, yeah.

21:02

So if you understand these different

21:04

safety strategies and the patterns that

21:06

grow out of each of them,

21:09

you can watch yourself and you

21:11

can watch the other people close

21:13

to you go through this dance

21:16

and you can know where they

21:18

are. Yeah. And therefore, you know

21:20

how to approach them because people

21:22

caught in each of these different

21:25

patterns at this moment. want to

21:27

be approached and interacted with differently.

21:29

Yes, so let's let's dive into

21:32

this a little bit because I

21:34

love because we could we could

21:36

totally nerd out on the personality

21:39

patterns for you know hours and

21:41

hours but I want to redirect

21:43

people to the first interview we

21:46

did when I asked a lot

21:48

of questions and got really into

21:50

the patterns. But I want to

21:53

go to the the relationship piece

21:55

because my husband and I do

21:57

couple we coach couples and every

22:00

single couple has the same fight.

22:02

or the same sticking point, the

22:04

same pattern that they just loop

22:07

in, you know, it's... like an

22:09

airplane that hasn't been cleared for

22:11

landing. There's circles and circles and

22:14

circles and circles and circles. So.

22:16

And if you ask them about

22:18

it, they can do it right

22:21

in front of you in the

22:23

office right now. Oh, absolutely. Because

22:25

both of them know their script.

22:28

Absolutely. Absolutely. But they can't get

22:30

out of it. Right. So can

22:32

we talk about like how these

22:35

patterns even start the same fight

22:37

over and over. What's really going

22:39

on. And then how do we

22:42

move out of it and break

22:44

out of the pattern using the

22:46

lens of the five personality patterns?

22:49

Right. So and this is really

22:51

what the second my second book

22:53

how to have better relationships is

22:56

about. It's about understanding not only

22:58

your patterns and the simple fact

23:00

that not everybody is just like

23:03

you for all of us who

23:05

first studied maps of personality. And

23:07

the five personality patterns is one

23:09

map of personality. The anyagram is

23:12

another, the Myers Briggs is another.

23:14

But for anybody who studies any

23:16

map of personality, the first big

23:19

discovery is, holy crap, I thought

23:21

everybody was just like me, and

23:23

they're not. They are experiencing the

23:26

world differently than I am, and

23:28

therefore they are responding to the

23:30

world differently than I am. You

23:33

know, usually that's followed by some

23:35

inner, inner comment to the effect

23:37

of either they're stupid or I'm

23:40

stupid. Right. Depending on whether you

23:42

inflate or deflate. But, so in

23:44

answer to your question, first task

23:47

is to understand your own patterns.

23:49

And then work more on becoming

23:51

more present, because being present, like

23:54

you were saying where you can

23:56

interact most skillfully with other people

23:58

because you're not caught in some

24:01

old automatic conditioned way of

24:03

behaving. Now you're able to

24:05

be here now and respond

24:08

to this situation

24:10

and this person. So that's

24:13

job one. Get out

24:15

of pattern yourself. Job

24:17

two is understand what patterns

24:19

the other person that you

24:21

want to connect with

24:23

is caught in currently and

24:26

then adjust your approach to

24:28

suit them. Okay, so let's,

24:31

can we do some

24:33

real examples here? Sure.

24:35

So, let's say we

24:37

have a female that

24:40

does rigid merging. And

24:42

a husband who does?

24:44

Kind of in that

24:46

order. Yeah, but let's

24:49

switch it instead

24:51

of aggressive enduring.

24:54

Okay. Let's switch it

24:56

to enduring aggressive.

24:59

of the neither one feels

25:01

heard like he feels

25:04

he's met with defensiveness,

25:06

rigidity, interruption, and then

25:08

she feels like he

25:10

just has anger out

25:12

purse, right, over something

25:14

that seems insignificant. So

25:16

he's caught in enduring, you're

25:18

saying, or are you saying

25:21

he's really caught in? I

25:23

think he's caught in enduring.

25:25

and then goes into aggressive.

25:28

Goes into aggressive. Okay.

25:30

So if he's more

25:32

caught in enduring, he

25:34

probably won't blow until

25:36

things get pretty bad

25:38

inside. Now if his backup

25:41

pattern is aggressive, the

25:43

threshold might be lower. Right.

25:45

Right. If he has a different

25:48

backup pattern like leaving

25:50

pattern or rigid pattern

25:53

or rigid pattern or

25:55

something. He probably won't

25:57

get angry until...

26:00

completely loses it. But

26:02

if she does rigid pattern

26:04

and he does, if she's

26:06

currently in rigid pattern and

26:09

he's currently in enduring pattern,

26:11

so her focus is narrowing.

26:13

Rigid pattern is a constriction

26:15

of focus from a broad

26:17

focus to a point focus

26:19

to there is this one

26:22

thing. that is wrong, that

26:24

we have to fix right

26:26

now. Yeah. Yeah. And it

26:28

could be something very small,

26:30

like, you are five minutes

26:32

late, or you just mispronounced

26:35

this word, or you put

26:37

the toilet paper, the new

26:39

roll of toilet paper, on

26:41

the wrong way, and there

26:43

is a right way, but

26:45

it's her, her attention is

26:48

focused on this one thing.

26:50

It's a very narrow point

26:52

focus. His attention is much

26:54

more spread out. He's an

26:56

enduring pattern. He's trying to

26:58

hide. He's being invisible. He

27:01

will experience that pointed attention

27:03

as poking him. It's an

27:05

intrusion. It's coming into his

27:07

space and messing with him

27:09

and he doesn't want any

27:11

part of it. So he

27:14

will pull in farther and

27:16

hide deeper. Right. Right. And

27:18

they can repeat this for

27:20

quite a while. Yeah, this

27:22

is a really common one

27:24

I see in couples we

27:27

coach. Yeah. The male does

27:29

some version of aggressive enduring.

27:31

Yeah. The shutdown act out

27:33

and the female does some

27:35

version of rigid. leaving or

27:37

merging or any of those.

27:40

And so she feels like

27:42

she's in, I've even heard

27:44

women say, I feel like

27:46

I'm in an abusive relationship

27:48

because like there's such a

27:50

big explosion that happens. And

27:53

he feels. like he can't

27:55

get her to think bigger

27:57

that it's just like a

27:59

micro focus on something that

28:01

with defensiveness interrupted but I'm

28:03

curious like that defensive like

28:06

when someone's really defensive and

28:08

interrupts a lot and is

28:10

like kind of that I'm

28:12

right you're wrong or no

28:14

it's this way is that

28:16

more rigid or aggressive I

28:19

think that would probably be

28:21

more rigid pattern yeah is

28:23

more an aggressive pattern, doesn't

28:25

really care about right and

28:27

wrong. They just care about

28:29

power and dominance. Right? It

28:32

won't be, you have to

28:34

do it this way because

28:36

this is the right way.

28:38

It'll be because you have

28:40

to do it this way

28:42

because I said so. Right?

28:45

And I will get as

28:47

angry as is needed to

28:49

coerce you into doing it

28:51

my way. Right. And then

28:53

how does the rigid pattern

28:56

react to that? Okay,

28:58

so rigid pattern interacting with

29:01

aggressive pattern. We're talking two

29:03

different people here now. So

29:05

yeah, the rigid pattern person

29:08

will feel like this is

29:10

wrong. Their attention will go

29:12

to how against the rules

29:15

it is to try to

29:17

just bully somebody into doing

29:19

what you want. A rigid

29:21

pattern person is generally quite

29:24

focused on the rules and

29:26

cares about the rules, wants

29:28

to uphold the rules and

29:31

standards, sees that as a

29:33

very important part of life,

29:35

not only for them, but

29:38

for everybody. Strong sense of

29:40

right and wrong. Exactly. And

29:42

is often very confused about

29:45

the fact that other people

29:47

who don't do the rigid

29:49

pattern don't really care about

29:52

the rules that much. The

29:55

person who does aggressive pattern

29:57

and doesn't do rigid pattern

30:00

doesn't care about... the rules

30:02

isn't persuaded by any argument

30:05

starting with this is the

30:07

right way, just wants what

30:09

they want. Right. So they have

30:11

two completely different

30:14

worldviews about what's

30:17

important. Right. The other

30:19

thing I notice in

30:21

this one is there's like,

30:23

in this dynamic, there's

30:26

such. Like a distance that

30:28

happens that they almost

30:30

just go on living separate

30:33

lives Like you're in the

30:35

relationship aggressive and

30:38

rigid patterns are older

30:40

patterns in terms of

30:42

the developmental stages Yeah,

30:44

so they're able to

30:46

tolerate Less contact. They're

30:49

more able to be

30:51

independent They feel less

30:53

emotionally dependent. And if

30:55

they can't get what

30:58

they want, they'll just

31:00

say, well, screw you. I'll

31:02

do without it or I'll

31:04

get it somewhere else. Yep.

31:06

That could be another book.

31:09

Right. Very different from

31:11

a person. Let's say

31:14

the rigid pattern person

31:16

isn't rigid pattern. Instead,

31:19

they're more caught. in

31:21

the merging pattern and

31:23

they really want connection.

31:26

So as the aggressive

31:28

pattern person pulls away,

31:30

the merging pattern person

31:32

will chase them. Try to

31:35

get more contact. Or in

31:37

the previous example, if say

31:40

the man in this case

31:42

does the enduring pattern

31:45

and the woman does

31:47

merging pattern, she will. I

31:49

mean, from merging pattern, her

31:51

view is it's all about

31:53

love. It's all about connection.

31:55

It's all about relationship. Let's

31:58

get closer. So she... He

32:00

will energetically put out her

32:02

little feelers into his personal

32:04

space and she'll be rooting

32:07

around in there looking for

32:09

him. And he, remember he

32:11

does enduring pattern and he's

32:13

very protective of his personal

32:15

space. He doesn't want anybody

32:18

coming in and messing with

32:20

him. He will experience this

32:22

as an intrusion and he

32:24

will, like I said before,

32:26

he will hide deeper. He

32:29

will pull in more. hide

32:31

deeper, so she will chase

32:33

him either just energetically or

32:35

often physically. And you know,

32:37

that'll be the story of

32:40

their relationship for the last

32:42

15 years. Yeah, yeah, all

32:44

the while her needs aren't

32:46

getting met. Or she is.

32:48

Yeah, right, right. And it's

32:51

because they don't really understand

32:53

what the other person's needs

32:55

are. Because the other person's

32:57

needs are so different. Well,

32:59

let's go through these. Let's

33:02

go through one by one,

33:04

the key needs of each

33:06

pattern. Okay. So leaving. So

33:08

leaving pattern. Well, before we

33:10

do, I before that, because

33:13

we spent some time on

33:15

all of them, except leaving.

33:17

So in relationship conflict, what

33:19

does the leaving pattern do?

33:21

Leave. At the first hint

33:24

of danger or even just

33:26

big energy. a person who's

33:28

really caught in leaving energy

33:30

will interpret that big energy

33:32

as danger and will, you

33:35

know, dissociate, jump out of

33:37

their body, or maybe physically

33:39

leave the room, leave the

33:41

house, go out the back

33:43

door. I've known of situations

33:46

where this was often a

33:48

man-woman situation where the man

33:50

was doing aggressive pattern, and

33:52

he was coming home to

33:54

her. And something big had

33:57

happened for him and he

33:59

was really excited. about it.

34:01

So he's running a huge

34:03

energy through his body, much

34:05

bigger than most people can

34:08

tolerate. And she feels that

34:10

big energy field coming. She

34:12

doesn't notice that it's happy

34:14

energy. She just notices it's

34:16

big that in her world,

34:19

any big energy is dangerous

34:21

energy, gotta get away. So

34:23

she's out the back door

34:25

before he comes in the

34:27

front door. And then

34:30

he feels abandoned. Where are

34:32

you? I have this wonderful

34:34

thing to share with you.

34:36

And she can't even be

34:38

there for it. They're missing

34:41

each other because they operate

34:43

on different levels of energy.

34:45

Her energy is very, it's

34:47

a low level, a low

34:49

volume energy, and she's very

34:52

sensitive to other people's energy.

34:54

She can literally feel him

34:56

coming a block away. He's

34:58

on the other end of

35:00

the spectrum. He can't feel

35:02

something until it gets big.

35:05

You know, if you yell

35:07

at him, you'll get it.

35:09

But if you just ask

35:11

politely, he won't really think

35:13

you care. Right. Right. Okay.

35:16

So they're not only missing

35:18

each other spatially, but their

35:20

attention is in different ends.

35:22

of the whole spectrum of

35:24

energy, the amount of energy.

35:26

Does that make sense? Yeah,

35:29

yeah, for sure. Oh, absolutely.

35:31

Okay, so let's go through

35:33

the needs of each, because

35:35

I think people, even just

35:37

if they don't listen to

35:39

the first episode, can start

35:42

to self-identify which pattern they

35:44

do, and which pattern their

35:46

partner does, right? So if

35:48

you or your partner does

35:50

leaving, you either physically exit

35:53

or... like you dissociate on

35:55

some level. If you do

35:57

the merging you try to

35:59

like like you're either chase or

36:01

try to connect or kind of

36:03

do the I'm not okay unless

36:06

you're okay type thing. If you're

36:08

enduring that person like what I

36:10

hear people describe as is he

36:12

goes into his cave or she

36:14

completely shuts down or you know

36:16

it's like talking to a zombie

36:18

you know like there's no one's

36:20

home is what it feels like

36:22

and it's it's different than leaving

36:24

like at least in terms of

36:26

way I experience this like you

36:28

said physically leave. or just like

36:31

dissociate but the enduring

36:33

pattern is more this

36:35

big energetic do not disturb

36:37

a hunker down cave. The person

36:40

is still there in their

36:42

body they didn't dissociate right

36:44

but they're hunkered down and

36:46

hiding and they don't want

36:48

you to find them. Right

36:50

right exactly exactly and then

36:53

the aggressive pattern will

36:55

explode react and the

36:57

rigid pattern will Want contract

36:59

and want the rules to

37:01

be followed and like hyper

37:04

focuses on something right? The

37:06

their attention will contract to

37:08

a point focus on this

37:11

one thing that's wrong that

37:13

we've got to fix right now

37:15

Yes, okay. Okay. So let's go

37:17

back to the need like what are

37:19

the primary needs of this pattern so

37:21

we can start to meet our own

37:23

needs instead of expecting our partner to

37:26

save us and then meet the needs

37:28

of our partner because whenever we coach

37:30

couples like you if you want to

37:32

uplevel your relationship you have to

37:34

switch from protect to connect because

37:36

we all just default to protect.

37:38

Very very common but we want

37:40

connection but we invest so much

37:42

time and energy and protection. So

37:45

let's go through these so that

37:47

people get a clearer idea of

37:49

what they need and what their

37:51

partner needs. So if your partner

37:53

is caught in the leading pattern

37:56

and is there most of the time,

37:58

the first thing you need. to recognize

38:00

is that they're probably more

38:03

sensitive to energy than you

38:05

are. Supposing you don't do

38:07

leaving pattern and maybe don't

38:10

do merging pattern either. They're

38:12

more sensitive to energy, so

38:15

they're aware of stuff earlier

38:17

than you, and they're afraid

38:20

of big energy. So part

38:22

of what you have to

38:24

do is learn the skill

38:27

of. literally pulling in your

38:29

energy bubble and kind of

38:32

turning down the volume. Especially

38:34

if you're used to running

38:36

a really big energy, supposing

38:39

maybe you do aggressive pattern.

38:41

But you need to learn

38:44

to not scare them because

38:46

they are easy to scare.

38:48

Their assumption is... Big energy

38:51

is dangerous energy. And they're

38:53

not living in their body.

38:56

They haven't embodied yet in

38:58

the way that people who

39:00

don't do the leaving pattern

39:03

have embodied. So they don't

39:05

feel the protection of the

39:08

body. Right. And they're probably

39:10

good at leaving this dimension,

39:12

time and space, when we

39:15

think of as... here and

39:17

now in the only place.

39:20

They're good at leaving this

39:22

dimension and going to other

39:24

dimensions and having fun adventures

39:27

with other creatures, intelligences they

39:29

find there, and they don't

39:32

see this dimension as really

39:34

that great. Right, right. Because

39:37

you know, you can be

39:39

in a car accident here

39:41

and you'll die, or you

39:44

can slam your finger in

39:46

the door. Mm-hmm. Some dimensions,

39:49

well, you can't do that.

39:51

So if your partner does

39:53

leaving pattern, you probably have

39:56

to turn down your energy

39:58

and pull in your bubble.

40:01

and get used to the

40:03

idea that you're dealing with

40:05

someone who's more sensitive than

40:08

you're used to and doesn't

40:10

want to be surprised.

40:12

Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Okay. Does that

40:15

make sense? Totally. Yeah.

40:17

So if your partner

40:19

does merging pattern. Yeah. We

40:21

haven't talked about this.

40:24

There's a compensated version

40:26

in a simple version.

40:28

Yeah. Yeah, that's, we

40:30

probably should leave that for

40:33

the book. We talked about it,

40:35

we talked about it in the

40:37

last. Yeah, we did. Yeah, because

40:39

I do more the compensating,

40:41

so we talk about that. Right. So

40:44

if your partner does the

40:46

merging pattern, what makes them

40:48

feel safer is not you

40:50

being far away, but you

40:52

being close. So they want to

40:54

connect. If you want their

40:57

attention, if you want

40:59

them to feel noticed

41:02

and important and safe,

41:04

do something to connect

41:06

with them. Maybe reach out

41:09

and touch them. Don't surprise

41:11

them, but do some

41:13

show that you want to

41:16

connect. Because that's

41:18

what they want. That's

41:20

what they want. That's what

41:22

they want. And

41:25

most of their attention is already

41:27

over on you and what's going

41:29

on with you and not on

41:31

them. So when you connect with

41:34

them and when you say, well,

41:36

how are you? What are you

41:38

feeling? What are you wanting? It'll

41:41

help them bring their attention back

41:43

to themselves and maybe find

41:45

out what they're wanting. Right.

41:47

Because they have a tendency

41:50

to be abandoning themselves and

41:52

not noticing. So help them

41:55

come back to themselves by

41:57

connecting with them. And

42:01

that can be simple. I

42:03

think sometimes we think that's

42:05

hard. It can be a

42:08

hug. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. A

42:10

hug holding hands, a touch

42:12

on the arm, a kiss

42:14

on the cheek or the

42:17

forehead or anything. Yeah. Oh,

42:19

one thing we didn't say

42:21

about people with really in

42:24

leaving pattern. I had to

42:26

learn this many years ago

42:28

when I was dating a

42:30

woman. really deep in leaving

42:33

pattern is Before making love

42:35

she had to find her

42:37

body Mm-hmm. I already knew

42:40

where my body was I

42:42

was always aware of where

42:44

my skin level was She

42:47

wasn't so I she might

42:49

have to put her going

42:51

physically and then in me

42:53

approaching her I would need

42:56

to give lots of contact

42:58

that's not sexual but helps

43:00

her find her skin line

43:03

like just stroking an arm

43:05

yeah to help her find

43:07

the skin level yeah to

43:09

me that was almost incomprehensible

43:12

back then like you don't

43:14

know where your skin is

43:16

yeah I know because I

43:19

knew where mine was and

43:21

I thought everybody knew right

43:23

right right okay so we've

43:26

done leaving How's merging? Does

43:28

that feel? Yes, that feels

43:30

good. Yes. So for enduring,

43:32

it's the opposite of merging

43:35

in a real way. They

43:37

don't want you coming towards

43:39

them and bothering them. They're

43:42

very aware of their own

43:44

bubble of space. Think of

43:46

each person having, we often

43:48

talk about this is the

43:51

aura. There's a kind of

43:53

a personal bubble of space

43:55

about arms length. as far

43:58

as you can reach You

44:00

know, left and right, above you

44:02

and below you, think of it

44:04

as a yard or a meter

44:06

in every direction from

44:08

your body. And that's kind

44:11

of your personal space and

44:13

you have an edge at the edge of

44:16

that. They don't want you

44:18

talking into their space or

44:20

reaching into their space. They want

44:22

you to put it at the edge.

44:24

So my favorite story about

44:27

this comes from a friend

44:29

who... Obviously did this

44:31

pattern. She would say, you know,

44:33

if you're gonna, if you're

44:36

bringing me brownies, bring

44:38

them to the door, ring the

44:40

doorbell, put them down on the

44:43

little table by the door and

44:45

say, I brought you some brownies,

44:48

and then turn around and walk

44:50

away. I may have a little

44:52

of this one. I'm not coming

44:55

out to get the brownies

44:57

if you're still there. I

44:59

want the brownies, I'm glad you

45:01

brought them, I'm grateful, but I

45:03

don't want to be merging energy

45:05

fields with you yet. Not until

45:07

you have demonstrated to me that

45:10

you know where my field is

45:12

and you will respect it. Right.

45:14

Now you'll notice if you do

45:16

merging pattern and they do enduring

45:18

pattern, you've got a real clash

45:20

here. Yes. Because what you want

45:23

is to penetrate their energy field

45:25

and what they want is for you

45:27

to stay the hell out. Right.

45:29

Right. That's right. And you're wondering

45:31

why they don't ever come to

45:33

you. Yeah. Because you think, well,

45:35

if you love me, you would.

45:37

You'd be over here all the

45:40

time. You'd be sending your feelers

45:42

over to me. You'd be sending

45:44

love to me. You'd be touching

45:46

me. And their thought is, I

45:48

wouldn't want anybody to do that to

45:50

me. Again, we all think everyone

45:52

is just like us, because the

45:54

only way we've ever known is the

45:57

way we are. That's right. If you're working

45:59

with a person... or in a relationship

46:01

with a person who does

46:03

enduring pattern recognize they need

46:05

space. Space is what makes

46:07

them feel safe. Don't invade

46:10

their space. Ask permission if

46:12

you want to come closer.

46:14

And the first answer they

46:16

give you will probably be

46:18

no. The first no is

46:20

not the real no. It's

46:22

just the no to establish

46:24

that they have the right

46:27

to say no. Give

46:29

them some time because they

46:31

need time to process it.

46:34

Their inner system runs slower

46:36

than any other pattern. Lead

46:38

and cattern system runs fast.

46:41

Rigid system runs fast. Enduring

46:43

runs really slow. Which pattern

46:45

has the hardest time sexually?

46:47

Hardest time with what sexual?

46:50

wanting it or maybe having

46:52

a lower sex drive or

46:54

it's just not something that

46:57

is as important to other

46:59

patterns? You know I think

47:01

that depends a lot more

47:03

on gender and culture and

47:06

who you're with what their

47:08

patterns are yeah because you

47:10

know I've seen it most

47:12

in the enduring just in

47:15

the brief in the like

47:17

you know my small research

47:19

base but that's where I

47:22

see it most They will

47:24

want, and especially since you

47:26

do merging and rigid, your

47:28

unconscious tendency will be to

47:31

energetically reach out. Yeah. And

47:33

reach out towards their core,

47:35

towards the core of their

47:37

body, the center of their

47:40

body, which is a penetration

47:42

of their personal space. It's

47:44

very hard to train yourself

47:47

to don't go there, you

47:49

know. Go to a place

47:51

that's two yards away. from

47:53

their core and put your

47:56

question or your your comment

47:58

there. Even if you're saying

48:00

I love you, put your

48:02

love there and let them

48:05

come out and get it.

48:07

The best image for this

48:09

that I've heard is think

48:12

about what it would be

48:14

like if you were dealing

48:16

with a small animal that

48:18

lives in a burrow in

48:21

the ground. A mouse, a

48:23

gerbil. Something that lives underground.

48:25

And they won't come out

48:27

if you're sitting right there

48:30

looking straight into the hole.

48:32

Yeah. You gotta be sitting

48:34

yard, two yards away, and

48:37

maybe not looking right at

48:39

them. And just notice the

48:41

little movement out of the

48:43

corner of your eye. Don't

48:46

swivel around and just put

48:48

the search light right on

48:50

them. It'll scare them. Because

48:52

again, this is a kid

48:55

who lost the fights. Right?

48:57

They're not used to attention

48:59

being followed by something good.

49:02

That's so key. Yeah, they're

49:04

used to. Attention is followed

49:06

by attack. Don't look at

49:08

me. Yeah. On the other

49:11

hand, people who do the

49:13

enduring pattern are very loyal,

49:15

reliable partners. and loyal lovers.

49:18

These are not people who

49:20

are going to go have

49:22

an affair with somebody else.

49:24

That's right. Yeah, I'm thinking

49:27

of clients that I worked

49:29

with years ago and she

49:31

did the enduring pattern and

49:33

he just thought he was,

49:36

she wasn't sexually interested. And

49:38

when we looked at the

49:40

patterns, because he was a

49:43

merger. Yeah, yeah. And he

49:45

was looking straight down the

49:47

hole. And once she was

49:49

like, get away, get away.

49:52

Yes, yes, and he experienced

49:54

rejection and it fired up

49:56

all his merging stuff, right?

49:58

And so one of the

50:01

things we worked at is

50:03

like, let her come to

50:05

you, like, really meet your

50:08

own needs, not just sexually,

50:10

but like, kind of don't

50:12

be needy. And like, allow

50:14

her to, you know. come

50:17

to you and find ways

50:19

to make her feel seen

50:21

that aren't necessarily sexual. And

50:23

eventually, you know, they worked

50:26

out, but what I think

50:28

just having an understanding about

50:30

it is so huge. So,

50:33

okay, so then... Understanding that

50:35

her decision process is slower.

50:37

Yes. So like for a

50:39

merging pattern person, you might,

50:42

you might have the feeling

50:44

of, oh, I'm feeling sexy,

50:46

want to go. For an

50:48

enduring pattern in person, it's

50:51

like, the question is too

50:53

fast. I can't answer it

50:55

right now. Right. You know,

50:58

ask them, well, how about

51:00

tomorrow? Would you like to

51:02

make love tomorrow? Yeah. Yeah.

51:04

And let them go away

51:07

by themselves where it's safe

51:09

and think it over. And

51:11

after they decide it's okay,

51:13

then they can come back

51:16

with a yes. But if

51:18

you're standing there looking at

51:20

them and kind of... messing

51:23

with them, they can't find

51:25

out what their own answer

51:27

is. Right. Right. Yep. Okay.

51:29

So let's do aggressive. Aggressive.

51:32

Okay. So supposing that your

51:34

partner, family, business, romance, whatever

51:36

it is, does the aggressive

51:39

pattern, they have a strong-felt

51:41

sense of their core, and

51:43

they're used to talking, speaking

51:45

to other people straight from

51:48

their core. That's what makes

51:50

their statements more convincing. They

51:52

say, do this. Come straight

51:54

out of the core of

51:57

their body right at your

51:59

car. And they think that

52:01

other people do that too,

52:04

even though most people don't.

52:06

If you want them to

52:08

listen to what you say

52:11

and believe that it's important,

52:13

you need to learn. You need

52:16

to develop a felt

52:18

sense of your own core.

52:20

And then speak to them

52:22

directly from your core to

52:24

their core. Straight from

52:27

your core to their

52:29

core. Simple, declarative statements.

52:32

I want this. I want

52:34

you to do this for me

52:36

now. Will you do that? Don't

52:38

give him some long

52:40

convoluted statement. It

52:43

would really make me happy

52:45

if someday, you know, when

52:47

it's not too much trouble,

52:49

as the moon is moving

52:51

into... That's how the merger

52:53

talks to me. Right. They can't

52:55

follow all that. Right. Their mind

52:58

is much simpler than that. It's

53:00

like, I want what I want.

53:02

I want it now. And let's

53:05

do that now. And you've got

53:07

to talk to me in the

53:09

same terms, because I can't follow

53:12

all this convoluted emotional stuff.

53:14

Yeah. I don't know what you're

53:16

talking about. Yep. Get to

53:19

the point? Simple, direct. And

53:21

you can't hit them with

53:23

more energy than they can tolerate.

53:26

Also, get your head higher

53:28

than theirs. Physically? Physically higher.

53:30

I remember Helen Palmer explaining

53:33

this in an anneogram class.

53:35

Her husband did aneogram eight,

53:38

which is very similar to aggressive

53:40

pattern. My husband does eight, so

53:42

I know that one. Yeah. I

53:45

mean, they're maps. They're not exactly

53:48

the same territory, but they're close

53:50

enough that they overlap in certain

53:52

places. So what Helen said was.

53:54

Look when I'm having a fight

53:56

with my husband, I can't just

53:59

stand there. to toe with

54:01

him and argue because he's

54:03

a foot taller than me.

54:05

I need to go over

54:07

to the stairs and I

54:10

need to go up three

54:12

steps at least so I'm

54:14

taller than him and he

54:16

has to look up at

54:19

me. Then he will believe

54:21

what I'm saying. Smart. Yeah.

54:23

Okay, I'm gonna get a

54:25

stool. And this is part

54:27

of what's built in to

54:30

people who do aggressive pattern.

54:32

Remember, these are people who

54:34

have been winning the fights.

54:36

Yeah. And one of the

54:39

reasons they've been winning the

54:41

fights is often, well, certainly

54:43

they can muster more energy

54:45

than whoever's on the other

54:47

side and just bowl them

54:50

over. But often they're also

54:52

physically taller. Yeah. Or just

54:54

have like a bigger personality.

54:56

Or have a bigger personality.

54:59

Right. Okay, and then how

55:01

about rigid? Rigid. When you're

55:03

dealing with a person who

55:05

does rigid pattern, you have

55:07

to approach them in a

55:10

way that is okay, given

55:12

whatever rules and standards they

55:14

believe in and subscribe to.

55:16

And these could be cultural,

55:19

they could be gender. I

55:21

remember a client who had

55:23

grown up in Japan, saying

55:25

that in Japan, it was

55:27

not okay. for a child

55:30

to look directly into the

55:32

eyes of the mother. Wow.

55:34

It would be considered an

55:36

attack. Now, I don't actually

55:39

know if that's true, but

55:41

I was struck by the

55:43

idea that there are cultures

55:45

where if you look directly

55:47

at someone, you are challenging

55:50

them. And this is true

55:52

in the animal world. If

55:55

you if you watch predator and

55:58

prey animals, you'll notice that animals

56:00

don't lock eyes with anybody. Predator

56:02

animals will look directly and they

56:04

are locking on to you because

56:07

they are going to get you.

56:09

It's the thing that happens just

56:11

before they pounce. Right. And you

56:13

know we have bodies that have

56:16

had millions of years of evolution

56:18

and something in us knows this.

56:20

So... Learn what the rules are

56:22

for your person you're trying to

56:25

connect with. That could be grammatical

56:27

rules. It could be distance. How

56:29

close can you be? Yeah. Do

56:31

you stand while they sit? Do

56:34

you sit while they stand? Do

56:36

you both stand? Do you both

56:38

stand? Do you both sit? Yeah.

56:40

shuts me down. So that would

56:43

be and him honoring that is

56:45

tending to the need of my

56:47

pattern, right? Exactly. Great example. Him

56:49

honoring that is a recognition of

56:51

the need of your pattern and

56:54

in a way it's a respect

56:56

and an act of love. Yeah.

56:58

You're saying I love you more

57:00

than I care about using this

57:03

word. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And I

57:05

think in any relationships, it's compromise,

57:07

not sacrifice. So it's, you know,

57:09

him not using that word is

57:12

not me saying, you can't share

57:14

your feelings with me because it

57:16

only has to be my way.

57:18

It's more this particular word is

57:21

really hard for me. Can you

57:23

not use that? And that is

57:25

a compromise, not a sacrifice of

57:27

him not being able to express.

57:30

Right. And people will often have

57:32

certain words. that might be off

57:34

limits for them because that happened

57:36

to them in a very traumatizing

57:39

situation when they were young and

57:41

that trauma is still caught in

57:43

their body. Right, right. So you

57:45

can't do what the person who

57:48

hurt them did and think that

57:50

they're still going to be here

57:52

in this time and space. They

57:54

will have gone back to that

57:57

other one and they're not with

57:59

you anymore. Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, when

58:01

we coach couples, you talk about

58:03

that a lot like. You're both

58:06

time traveling. You're now 13. She's

58:08

now too. You know, that's where

58:10

you guys, that's where you are

58:12

right now. And, you know, a

58:15

13-year-old and a two-year-old trying to

58:17

resolve a conflict. Good luck. Good

58:19

luck with that. So... You're missing

58:21

a lot of skills. Right. You're

58:23

missing a lot of skills. This

58:26

is so valuable and I know

58:28

people are going to want more.

58:30

So there's there's a couple options.

58:32

You have your course, which is

58:35

a seven module course. I've learned

58:37

a lot through the course. I

58:39

loved it. I took it last

58:41

summer when you released it. And

58:44

then you have your book, how

58:46

to have better relationships. Where can

58:48

people access both these things? You

58:50

can get them both from the

58:53

website, which I created for the

58:55

first book. The website is naturally

58:57

called... the five personality patterns.com. The

58:59

five can either be written out

59:02

or the number five, but the

59:04

five personality patterns is the name

59:06

of the first book, so that's

59:08

the name of the main website.

59:11

And the courses are there under

59:13

a menu heading that says courses

59:15

and stuff like that. You can

59:17

get the book there also. Actually,

59:20

you can you can order copies

59:22

signed by me. And you can

59:24

get the regular unsigned copies wherever

59:26

you get books, your local bookstore,

59:29

Barnes and Noble, Amazon, wherever. Amazing,

59:31

amazing. Well, I adore you, Stephen,

59:33

and I'm sure we'll have lots

59:35

of questions about this. So I

59:38

may even ask you to come

59:40

back and we can dive into

59:42

this deeper and do like around

59:44

to, because this is just such,

59:47

it's such helpful information. I think

59:49

the biggest takeaway from ever everybody

59:51

is, you know, go get the

59:53

book. and or do the course,

59:55

maybe commit to doing it with

59:58

your partner, and really get to,

1:00:00

you know, what is the need,

1:00:02

you know, what's the childhood need

1:00:04

that you didn't get, that you're

1:00:07

trying to get through your pattern

1:00:09

and from your partner, like we

1:00:11

project needs that weren't met for

1:00:13

mom and dad onto our partner.

1:00:16

and what is the need of

1:00:18

your partner and how can you,

1:00:20

obviously it's not our job to

1:00:22

heal our partner or make them

1:00:25

better or sacrifice anything, but it

1:00:27

is our job to love them

1:00:29

and understand them. I think that's one

1:00:31

of the best things we can do

1:00:33

in relationship is really, I call it

1:00:36

like Freaky Friday, you remember that movie

1:00:38

where they switch bodies? Like, okay, let's

1:00:40

do a Freaky Friday, like get in

1:00:42

your partner's body, like try your best

1:00:44

to see things through their

1:00:46

eyes because... It's not going

1:00:48

to, if we project our

1:00:50

expectations on how we would

1:00:52

handle something onto anybody, partner,

1:00:54

mother, friend, colleague, because this,

1:00:56

this, your work is not

1:00:58

just about romantic relationships, it's any

1:01:01

relationship. Yeah. Then we're going to

1:01:03

be very limited in what we can

1:01:05

see because we're only seeing through

1:01:07

our lens. Yeah. And in

1:01:10

romantic relationships, there's typically an

1:01:12

unconscious bargain that's been struck.

1:01:14

which is each person saying you

1:01:17

are supposed to give me what

1:01:19

I needed and couldn't get when

1:01:21

I was a baby. That's right. Or

1:01:23

a young child. And I needed

1:01:25

in the following five very particular

1:01:28

ways. And I'm going to

1:01:30

collect evidence for all the ways

1:01:32

you're not doing it. Right. If

1:01:34

you do, if you do

1:01:36

rigid pattern, you'll be collecting

1:01:38

evidence. The others don't care

1:01:40

about the evidence. They just

1:01:43

like you're not doing it.

1:01:45

So there's one other part

1:01:47

that maybe we would

1:01:49

want to actually do

1:01:51

another one of these

1:01:54

recordings about in the

1:01:56

future and that is if

1:01:58

you look in the. the how to

1:02:00

have better relationships books, chapters two and

1:02:02

chapter three are about the skills that

1:02:05

each person needs to develop to manage

1:02:07

themselves, and then the skills that each

1:02:09

person needs to develop in order to

1:02:11

have a healthy relationship with anyone else.

1:02:13

Can we do a part two? Would

1:02:15

you do that? I would love that.

1:02:18

Okay, okay. Romantic relationship or otherwise. But

1:02:20

those skills are separate from this whole

1:02:22

five personality pattern things. But everybody needs

1:02:24

to learn those skills. Yeah. And you

1:02:26

know, once you kind of learn the

1:02:28

list, you'll be able to tell real

1:02:31

quickly which ones you don't have and

1:02:33

need to develop. And also, you know,

1:02:35

with anybody else you're dealing with, like,

1:02:37

which ones then they just don't have.

1:02:39

They just don't have. Yeah. Okay. Well,

1:02:41

great. Well, this is awesome. Let's let

1:02:44

we'll have people digest this. If you

1:02:46

can't wait for the second podcast and

1:02:48

I encourage everybody to go get the

1:02:50

book by the course. learning more, because

1:02:52

this is really useful. What I love

1:02:54

about this work is it's, and the

1:02:56

way you write about the personality patterns,

1:02:59

is it simple yet profound? This isn't

1:03:01

a very complex, because even the anneogram,

1:03:03

it gets kind of confusing. You got

1:03:05

a wing, and there's that, and it's

1:03:07

kind of hard to diagnose, and like,

1:03:09

what age do you take the test

1:03:12

from? And I love the an anneogram,

1:03:14

and I find it useful. And I

1:03:16

just find the personality patterns just really

1:03:18

makes it simple and you can really

1:03:20

sink your teeth into it and experience

1:03:22

some profound shifts. So thank you for

1:03:25

your work. Thank you for writing the

1:03:27

second book and for being on the

1:03:29

show. You're very welcome. And I had

1:03:31

that same experience. I was a real

1:03:33

anyogram fan for 20 years before I

1:03:35

discovered the personality patterns or before I...

1:03:38

before I learned it. It had been

1:03:40

figured out years before by other people.

1:03:42

But before I learned about it and

1:03:44

then began applying it in my own

1:03:46

life and in my own therapy work,

1:03:48

and I had the same experience you

1:03:50

have, which is, oh wow, this is

1:03:53

more true to life. simpler and

1:03:55

it's just more more useful.

1:03:57

Right. So one of the lovely things

1:03:59

of the lovely

1:04:01

things that I've experienced

1:04:03

from writing these

1:04:06

books is I get

1:04:08

these emails from

1:04:10

couples, which usually start

1:04:12

with you saved

1:04:14

our marriage start with

1:04:16

you saved our a great

1:04:18

gift. that's a great better than

1:04:20

almost anything. that's Yeah,

1:04:22

absolutely. almost anything. Yeah you. All

1:04:24

right, Stephen. Well, until

1:04:26

next time then. you.

1:04:29

Thank you, you Lovely to

1:04:31

talk with you. too.

1:04:33

to talk with you. You too.