0:00

At Kroger, we want our fresh produce

0:02

to meet your expectations. To

0:04

make sure a bad apple won't spoil the

0:06

whole bunch, we do up to a 27-point

0:09

inspection on our fruits and veggies. We

0:11

check for things like sunburns and scarring,

0:13

making sure you only get the crunchiest apples.

0:16

In fact, only the best produce like juicy

0:18

pears, zesty oranges, and crisp

0:21

carrots reach our shelves. Because when it

0:23

comes to fresh, our higher standards

0:25

mean fresher produce. Kroger,

0:27

fresh for everyone.

0:34

Now for the marine forecast for waters within

0:37

5-nautical miles ashore on Western Lake Superior

0:39

from Fort Wing to Mayfield to Saxon Harbor,

0:41

Wisconsin, and the Outer Apostle Islands.

0:44

It's summer 2021. At

0:46

the time of this radio broadcast, National

0:49

Geographic photographer David Guttenfelder is

0:51

hunkered down in a lighthouse on

0:53

Devil's Island in Lake Superior. I

0:57

think we spent three

1:00

days on Devil's Island living

1:02

in the lighthouse while eight-foot

1:05

waves crashed against the shore. Devil's

1:09

Island is part of the Apostle Islands

1:11

National Lakeshore. And David was

1:13

on an ambitious journey to paddle to as many

1:15

of the islands as possible in 18 days. But

1:19

Lake Superior is notorious for its rough

1:21

waters and harsh, unstable weather.

1:24

It was definitely

1:27

a sizing up of my kayak

1:29

skills.

1:31

And on top of trying to stay afloat, he

1:34

was also trying to capture photos. David

1:37

recalls at one point leaving the lighthouse to check out

1:39

some sea caves, but that turned out

1:41

to be an adventure in itself. Suddenly,

1:44

this storm just came

1:47

over the horizon,

1:50

and one of our group members

1:52

said, we've got to get out of here. We

1:55

turned and paddled as hard

1:57

as we could back to the islands.

2:00

where we had come from and made

2:02

it just to the shoreline

2:05

when the lightning started hitting

2:07

all around us in the lake. My

2:11

kayaking partners went and took shelter

2:14

and I tried to make pictures. Classic

2:16

photographer, stand out in the middle of the storm.

2:21

Yeah, I flipped over my

2:23

boat and tried to photograph this

2:26

and I watched lightning hitting

2:29

in

2:30

front of me and then directly overhead

2:32

clearly it was hitting the island. Wow. It

2:35

was just one of the reminders

2:38

while we were out there how the lake is the boss

2:41

and how it was in charge.

2:44

I'm Peter Gwynn, editor at large at National

2:47

Geographic Magazine and you're listening to

2:49

Overheard, a show where we eavesdrop

2:51

on the wild conversations we have here at Nat

2:53

Geo and follow them to the edges of

2:56

our big, weird, beautiful

2:58

world.

2:59

This week, we

3:00

talked to National Geographic explorer David

3:02

Guttenfelder. He describes leaving

3:04

his first job as a photographer at a small

3:06

newspaper in Iowa to cover the

3:08

Rwandan genocide and how

3:10

that decision led him to photograph stories

3:13

in more than 100 countries over the next two decades.

3:17

So in the midst of a career

3:18

chasing headline stories around the world,

3:20

what brought him back to his native Midwest

3:22

to take an assignment kayaking in

3:24

Lake Superior? But

3:27

first, adventure is never far away

3:29

with a free one month trial to National Geographic

3:32

Digital. For starters, there's

3:34

full access to our stories online with

3:36

new ones published every day. Plus, every

3:39

Nat Geo issue ever published is

3:42

in our digital archives. There's a whole

3:44

lot more for subscribers and you can

3:46

check it all out for free

3:48

at natgeo.com slash

3:50

explore more.

3:53

This episode is sponsored by State Farm. Buying

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4:58

david good and filter was born and raised

5:00

in a rural town in iowa life

5:03

in the mid west is pretty much all he knew until we went

5:05

off to college and enrolled in a foreign

5:07

exchange study program the took

5:09

him to tanzania's largest city dar

5:12

es salaam lived in the dormitories

5:15

like the only american guy living in the dorms

5:17

with tanzanian guys all of the for eighteen months

5:19

i didn't speak english while i was there i

5:22

like completely and totally throw

5:24

myself into this experience and

5:27

my roommate lived in the highest village

5:30

on the slopes of mount kilimanjaro

5:33

i'm and we to go there on the weekends and i'd stay

5:35

with his grandmother and i would

5:37

help her do chores v the cows yet three

5:39

cars living inside her tiny little house with an

5:41

open fire at night with sleep and

5:43

the cows are lick your legs my

5:45

old job while i was there for eighteen months

5:47

was just learn a language

5:50

learned to live outside of my own experience

5:53

my own culture and i started taking

5:55

pictures to a a little point

5:57

shoot camera and i started taking pictures not because

6:00

I thought I was going to be a journalist, but because I thought

6:02

I wanted to

6:04

bring back pictures

6:06

of these people who, and this

6:08

experience that was so important to me,

6:11

and show my family back in Iowa. When

6:14

David returned, those photos helped

6:16

him build a portfolio that he used

6:18

to apply for his first job at the Daily

6:21

Iowan. I think most people build

6:23

a portfolio of like news and sports. I

6:25

had a portfolio of my friends and

6:27

people I met

6:29

in Africa and little villages where I traveled.

6:32

Then in 1994, David

6:34

made a life-changing decision. In

6:37

April of 1994, the aircraft of the president

6:39

of Rwanda was shot down, which sparked

6:41

civil war and

6:44

the genocide of ethnic Tutsis

6:46

by their neighbors with farm tools and

6:48

this mass exodus of people over

6:50

the border into neighboring Zaire,

6:53

now Congo, and Tanzania, where I had been a

6:55

student. I was sitting in Iowa with this little

6:58

photography job

6:59

watching this unfold on television.

7:02

I decided then that

7:04

this would be the thing, like there was

7:06

time for me to try to go and do something bigger.

7:09

I'd been to Tanzania. There were people there who

7:11

I cared about, who

7:14

I wanted to go back and see

7:17

and help.

7:18

I had the skills, I had the language, and so

7:20

I put my job and

7:22

I took everything I had, probably $5,000,

7:25

maybe less, $3,000. All

7:29

my cameras, all my belongings

7:31

I had in the world all fit into one backpack. I put

7:33

it on, practiced crawling around on the floor, see

7:35

if I could take pictures

7:38

with everything I owned on me.

7:40

Flew into Nairobi and

7:42

I went to an airstrip

7:45

and I literally hitchhiked on an aid flight. I

7:48

hitchhiked in Bujumbura, Burundi, and I hitchhiked

7:51

on a UNHCR road

7:54

convoy through Rwanda and

7:57

just started trying

7:59

to... contribute do something

8:01

as a photographer in rwanda and but you

8:04

know experience like as

8:06

a foreign correspondent and like you're just kind of making this

8:08

up as you go yeah

8:10

completely if i had never seen

8:13

a dead person apart

8:15

from those the refugee camps the first thing i saw

8:17

in rwanda was the kigali central

8:19

prison where

8:20

the began locking up ethnic

8:22

who to perpetrators of the genocide

8:25

sars i knew know photojournalist

8:27

had gone to

8:29

that place so

8:31

i knocked on the door and

8:33

some guy open the gate

8:34

and he said you

8:37

can come in but there's nobody

8:39

here to let you out so

8:42

talk to you so

8:43

i said yes and i went inside and i ended

8:45

up spending nearly three days

8:47

photographing inside the prison

8:50

just and thinkable

8:53

conditions people packed inside shoulder

8:55

to shoulder in an open courtyard

8:57

in the rain some

8:59

bunk beds people sleeping wherever

9:01

they could i should say that though

9:04

might have been the first place at want but the second place

9:06

i went just basically the same week

9:09

was

9:09

to

9:10

visit to of the churches

9:12

that were certain epicenters

9:14

of the massacre and

9:17

i went to one of the churches were

9:20

hundreds and hundreds of people had taken

9:22

shelter and that

9:25

includes you had taken shelter in their families and

9:27

they were in the churches were surrounded and

9:29

systematically like attacked him

9:31

over the course of days and everyone was killed

9:33

inside and i

9:35

i went inside and

9:36

i said i hands in violence or hadn't seen

9:40

anything like that i walked into church and they were

9:43

they don't want to describe it in

9:45

just the building

9:47

the pews full completely full

9:50

of the

9:51

victims of the genocide in

9:54

this is how long after the actual events

9:56

themselves many

9:58

weeks in there still the bodies are still

10:00

still there there still are now yeah

10:03

i wish i could say that it was the worst

10:06

thing that i photographed

10:08

her covered but i think it just set the

10:10

tone for i'm

10:12

going to be this person and i can do this i

10:15

went to rwanda thinking i was in a spend a few weeks

10:17

or couple months till my three thousand

10:19

dollars ran out and i'd go home with new experiences

10:21

and be the beginning of have a portfolio

10:24

and will have contributed i would have felt a

10:26

did something good for the world that i could do

10:30

i

10:30

end up spending the rest of my twenties and africa

10:33

and i covered only war i went from rwanda

10:35

and burundi somalia sierra

10:37

leone liberia zaire

10:40

spent

10:40

my whole twenties doing

10:42

just that we

10:45

could talk a lot about lot of a coverage

10:47

that you did you know through africa but i want

10:49

i can jump ahead to the iraq war

10:52

and i remember you tell me about

10:55

been sort of assigned by

10:57

the a p to to set up a

11:00

bureau in baghdad how did you get

11:02

this assignment in two thousand and three

11:05

which was the year of the invasion

11:08

were iraq re they sent me

11:11

to baghdad in

11:14

january and was january second

11:17

during the saddam regime

11:20

rule and he still in power when

11:22

you first arrive yep i was

11:24

working under like priest tight

11:26

controls of the iraq

11:28

iraqi regime

11:31

sort of press

11:34

propaganda wenger we

11:36

had to work out of this office couldn't

11:39

go anywhere without my you

11:41

know my guide or my mind or was as

11:44

big scary thug of a guy and

11:47

just wasn't free to completely just wander around

11:49

wherever i wanted to go always so i

11:51

came

11:53

up with this idea that i would hire

11:55

some a couple a local

11:57

at a iraqi photographers i

12:00

went to the iraqi press photographers association

12:03

meeting and i gave a like

12:05

a little talk met all the guys

12:08

think they were all guys league in stock an english

12:10

and scottish the trains will have a year ago yeah

12:13

i'm at all the members of the iraqi photographers

12:16

group ray and i told them

12:18

if any of you would like to try

12:20

and work for the a p come

12:23

to my office tomorrow and

12:26

will do will try out

12:28

and two guys showed up the

12:30

next day samir who

12:33

was middle aged an

12:35

was born with polio and his

12:38

leg

12:38

was like very atrophied

12:40

and he had a very difficult time

12:42

walking he served would hold on

12:44

to his pant leg and can pull

12:46

his leg behind and

12:49

karim who was about six foot six

12:51

and had a cutlass supreme classic and

12:56

a to

12:57

go look at them and their work

12:59

and i thought oh boy like these

13:01

guys and i gave them each a camera and i

13:03

sent them out kind of like on a test ray

13:06

and they came back and surprisingly

13:08

samir the

13:10

guy with the injured leg

13:13

for some reason i was surprised he took

13:15

this beautiful photo of this old barber

13:18

who

13:19

had been a member of like the old

13:21

royal household

13:23

and he had this barbershop

13:25

on the corner and is beautiful laden so

13:28

i hired him i gave him cameras

13:30

and lenses and i told them my it had

13:32

x amount per picture and and cinema few

13:35

weeks later there was a really important kind of news moment

13:38

the

13:38

heads of the un weapons team came

13:40

and they were staying in know a new which hotel everything's

13:42

who were kind of doing like a paparazzi thing where i

13:45

put myself in front of the hotel where i thought

13:47

they were most likely to be and i put the other

13:49

a p staff guy into the second most

13:51

likely hotel and then i put samir to

13:54

the hotel wish i didn't think he was actually

13:56

there turns out he was he came

13:58

out and samir got this amazing

14:00

photo that was the front of the new york times pray

14:03

and the competing writers guy said yeah

14:05

well he got that photo is that tall

14:07

guy always carries him around and

14:10

so what he means you know whenever they got on

14:12

assignment it's always the two of them and

14:14

that big tall guy with the cutlass supreme carries

14:17

him and

14:18

i don't know anything about it turned out that

14:21

when

14:21

i gave the one guy the job they decided to

14:23

work together and share the money because

14:26

samir

14:26

needed a ride and

14:28

he needed someone to carry him on his back

14:32

he was making all of his photos from piggyback

14:34

because he couldn't run or walk so

14:37

i called them in the off or it and

14:40

they looked means it or we fired

14:42

up they thought i will be upset about

14:45

it and i was so moved

14:46

by that i ended up hiring

14:49

kareem

14:50

also okay when

14:51

baghdad fell i

14:54

fired all of the regime

14:56

appointed ministry of information people that

14:58

i had to work with before the war were

15:01

controlled me and i had a staff

15:03

of karim and samir we

15:05

brought in some years little brother who

15:07

was actually a hot shot photographer there

15:09

was another guy named valid

15:11

muhammad who is this tough

15:13

street smart guy was a used car

15:15

salesman the know anything

15:17

about photography he just was always

15:20

the first guy there at all this through all these bombings

15:22

happening he was always the first one there and yet a

15:24

camera would like floppy disks they

15:27

hire all these rag tag guys we

15:29

had people coming in with ties and portfolios

15:31

applying for jobs and i only hire these guys that

15:33

i thought were survivors

15:36

yeah and they

15:38

won the pulitzer prize for breaking his photography

15:41

a group of iraqis

15:48

as if the that crispy

15:50

couldn't get any better bacon

15:53

and ranch just entered the chat

15:56

the bacon ranch makris be available

15:58

and participate in mcdonalds for

16:00

a limited time. Ba-da-ba-ba-ba.

16:03

At Kroger, we want our fresh

16:05

produce to meet your expectations.

16:08

To make sure a bad apple won't spoil

16:10

the whole bunch, we do up to a 27-point inspection

16:13

on our fruits and veggies. We check for things like

16:15

sunburns and scarring, making sure

16:18

you only get the crunchiest apples. In

16:20

fact, only the best produce like juicy

16:22

pears, zesty oranges, and crisp

16:24

carrots reach our shelves. Because when it

16:26

comes to fresh, our higher standards

16:29

mean fresher produce.

16:31

Kroger, fresh for everyone.

16:35

After Iraq, David spent the next two

16:37

decades taking photographs all over the world,

16:40

including Afghanistan, Israel, India,

16:42

Kenya, Japan, North Korea, and

16:44

most recently Ukraine, where he's been

16:47

covering the war. But back in 2020,

16:49

when the COVID-19 pandemic shut down travel,

16:52

he was back in Minnesota and got

16:54

a call from an unexpected source. One

16:58

day I was sitting in my office in

17:00

isolation and I got a phone

17:02

call from someone I didn't know

17:05

named Tom Irvine. He asked

17:07

me if I'd ever been to the Apostle Islands and

17:10

I hadn't. Tom is the

17:12

grandson and great-grandson of

17:15

Apostle Islands lighthouse

17:17

keepers, back when

17:19

lighthouse keepers were federally appointed. Oh

17:23

my gosh. And he just

17:25

said, this is the 50th anniversary of

17:27

a place that's very special to my family

17:29

and very special to the organization that

17:32

he heads,

17:33

which is the National Parks of Lake Superior

17:35

Foundation. And

17:37

he said, just go with me. We'll

17:40

check it out. And I went to

17:42

Wisconsin with him and

17:45

kind of had my mind blown. First

17:47

of all, what are the Apostle Islands? Well,

17:50

I have to admit that I knew very little about

17:53

the Apostle Islands myself. It

17:55

turns out they're right here in

17:58

my own backyard. The Apostle

18:00

Islands were the center

18:03

of Ojibwe civilization,

18:06

and for thousands of years,

18:08

they were the heart of the Anishinaabe

18:12

story of creation. Its 22

18:15

islands tucked into

18:17

the southern-western

18:20

corner of Lake Superior. The islands

18:23

became, in the mid-19th century,

18:25

became a center of colonization

18:28

that were completely transformed by

18:30

the construction of lochs

18:33

and

18:34

lighthouses by European settlers.

18:36

European settlers built

18:39

commercial fish camps, and they

18:41

were mining and built quarries, and

18:45

there was a massive amount of logging all

18:47

across the islands,

18:49

to the point where, in the

18:51

attempt to gather natural

18:53

resources and open up the

18:56

famously frigid and treacherous

18:58

Lake Superior, they did terrible

19:02

ecological damage to the 22 islands.

19:06

And so in 1970, it was

19:08

named a national lakeshore

19:11

and has been stewarded by the National

19:13

Park Service.

19:15

And just to clarify, there are 22

19:17

Apostle Islands in total, but 21 are counted

19:19

among the Apostle Islands National

19:21

Lakeshore.

19:22

That's because the National Lakeshore does not include

19:25

Madeline Island, the sacred homeland

19:27

of the Ojibwe people, in particular

19:29

the Red Cliff Band and the Bad River

19:31

Band of Lake Superior Chippewa. So

19:34

I asked David, how do you even go about showing

19:36

what's special about these islands? Well,

19:39

the first time I went, we went

19:42

out in little Park Service boats

19:44

and, you know, kayaked along

19:46

the shorelines. And I decided that

19:49

I wanted to make this a National

19:51

Geographic story and a National Geographic

19:53

level adventure. I decided

19:56

and was determined to kayak all 21 of the

19:58

islands. Wow, you

20:01

mean like kayak from one to the next

20:03

to the next to the next like in succession. That's

20:05

right. This is our

20:08

crossing outer

20:11

Just getting set up. Oh My

20:14

gosh, how far is that like what

20:16

kind of distance are you talking? I think

20:18

in by the end of it We

20:21

had paddled around 125 miles

20:24

how many miles to get to the camp to the lighthouse?

20:28

11 to go not even 10 a.m

20:30

We

20:32

pushed off from the shoreline Wisconsin

20:35

place called Little Sand Bay and We

20:38

spent about three weeks Paddling

20:41

from one island to the next you

20:43

can go all the way out to that tip And

20:46

stand in ankle-deep water and just it

20:48

feels like you're on the edge of the

20:51

abyss We

20:53

slept in tents

20:55

and hammocks and inside Abandoned

20:59

lighthouses

21:00

red-tailed hawk You

21:02

see one now and it was one

21:05

of the most peaceful

21:07

and adventurous experiences I've

21:09

ever had I'm turning off the recorder

21:13

now Okay,

21:17

so tell me about some of the things you guys saw

21:19

on the islands The Apostle Islands

21:21

was made a national park in 1970 But

21:24

in 2004 it was named a protected wilderness

21:29

so we've seen in the last 50 plus

21:32

years is the

21:34

rewilding of This

21:37

island and so there were signs

21:39

of this like rewilding and regeneration

21:42

everywhere that we went We walked

21:44

in old-growth forests on Outer

21:46

Island the most remote of all of the islands a

21:48

place that they Logged

21:50

to make baby furniture and baby cribs

21:54

and when the islands

21:57

were suddenly protected they that's

22:00

packed up and left leaving behind all of

22:02

this logging equipment old

22:05

cars beer cans and

22:07

we bushwhack through this old growth

22:09

forest and found

22:12

like the forest who completely overtaken

22:15

all of this like wreckage

22:17

from pre

22:20

national park pre post modern

22:22

wilderness trees and vines

22:24

growing through the carcasses of all of these vehicles

22:27

oh my gosh the sims wiles we

22:30

found the remains of old

22:33

lighthouses the most preserved

22:35

number of lighthouses and america we

22:38

found the resilience of

22:41

endangered species coming

22:43

back on the beaches and sense bits

22:45

of the islands and

22:47

course so many important indigenous

22:49

sites and people from

22:51

the nearby red

22:53

band of the lake superior

22:56

chippewa who are

22:57

out utilizing the islands

22:59

and lake and we met a group

23:02

of a job where campers the young

23:04

kids who were on camping

23:06

on sand island learning from tribal

23:09

elders about their connection to

23:12

what was the center of civilization

23:15

for the job where people most

23:16

interestingly he we

23:19

saw it is innumerable

23:21

see caves these are caves

23:24

cut

23:24

through billion year

23:26

old sandstone that you can paddle

23:29

your kayak back inside these

23:32

very delicate archways

23:35

enormous vaulted chambers

23:37

all cut by crashing

23:40

waves and melting

23:42

ice erosion and

23:44

when you would get back inside one

23:47

of these it was like paddling

23:49

a kayak inside a washing machine

23:52

tackling thrasher dot the walls and

23:54

spinning around was one of the most

23:56

incredible parts of the truth

24:00

While out at the Apostle Islands David recorded

24:03

a few audio diaries and I asked

24:05

him about this one. 2020

24:07

made me do it

24:10

and it was the first time I tried to get

24:13

some help and tried

24:16

to understand what PTSD is

24:18

all about or why I am the way I am

24:22

now. I

24:24

would love to explore that as

24:26

a photographer. Programs

24:29

that take people who

24:33

are really struggling out

24:35

into the wild, help

24:37

them find

24:40

some peace. It would

24:43

be a story about really

24:46

wide variety of people but it would be

24:48

a story about myself to

24:52

talk about that clip. This

24:55

trip sounds like you are working through some

24:57

of your own issues. It sounds

24:59

like more than just

25:00

a reaction to the pandemic but

25:02

some of your previous assignments in

25:06

other places. The

25:09

pandemic is obviously what we were all

25:12

across the world dealing with in 2020, 2021. For

25:16

me personally it was a year

25:21

or two of forced

25:24

reflection where I was home for the first

25:26

time not constantly on

25:29

the move and took

25:31

that time to try

25:33

to understand and digest some of the

25:37

experiences I have been through in my career

25:40

as a photographer and try and talk

25:43

to someone and make

25:46

some sense of all of it. This

25:49

trip was part of that year

25:51

and it

25:54

felt like one of the silver linings of

25:57

what was one of the worst years of all

25:59

of our lives. it was a chance

26:01

to rethink things

26:04

for ourselves and redirect

26:06

and I definitely took

26:09

that opportunity. I

26:13

think a lot of people find that in

26:16

nature. That seems to be a common thread

26:19

that you hear about veterans

26:22

coming back and finding some peace

26:25

by going into nature, people

26:27

that have had other traumatic experiences.

26:30

What is it about going into the wilderness?

26:33

It feels like that, it transcends cultures,

26:36

age groups. I don't want

26:38

you to speak for humankind,

26:41

but in terms of your own experience, what do you think it

26:43

is

26:43

about that that has

26:46

such a powerful effect? I would

26:48

say that for me it was reaffirming

26:51

something that I've always known,

26:54

which is there's always this

26:56

push-pull in my brain

26:58

as a documentary photographer that I need

27:00

to be doing something

27:03

that's front and center and

27:07

everybody's imagination,

27:09

some big important news

27:12

event or issue. And then that

27:15

often means we ignore the smaller places

27:17

closer to home.

27:19

And that though I've always

27:22

known that, photographing, piping

27:25

plover, or a national

27:27

park, or a community

27:29

that's next door is

27:32

as important, you have to be

27:35

reminded of that over and over again, that

27:38

it has equal consequence.

27:44

If you like what you hear and you want to support more

27:46

content like this, please rate

27:48

and review us in your podcast app and

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27:53

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27:55

to natgeo.com slash explore

27:58

more to subscribe.

28:00

for more on the apostle islands in their history

28:02

degree stephanie pearson's peace the

28:04

see the stunning images david cash for the

28:06

story also we only

28:08

discussed a small fraction the stories david is

28:11

covered his career is also

28:13

one of the few westerners who spent

28:15

in extensive amount of time in north korea

28:18

check out the photos he took would show a side

28:20

of the country people rarely get to see

28:23

they've it's also been covering the war in ukraine

28:26

can check out some of his photographs from the front lines

28:29

in a recent piece for

28:30

the new york and you can follow

28:32

him on instagram at d

28:34

good and felder as

28:36

on your shoulders they're right there in your podcast

28:39

app

28:40

this week's overheard episodes produced

28:42

by kyrie douglas take woods

28:45

or senior producers are branca two years and jacob

28:47

printer or senior editors you

28:49

like chen or manager of audio

28:51

is carla wills or executive

28:54

producer of audio devour aren't alive or

28:56

photo editor is julie how kid

28:59

would sound design this episode and

29:01

has they'll sue composed our theme

29:03

music this

29:04

podcast is a production of national

29:06

geographic partners the

29:08

national geographic society committed

29:10

to illuminating in protecting the wonder of

29:12

our world phones the work of national

29:14

geographic explorer david good unfilled michael

29:18

triple is the vice president of integrated

29:20

storytelling nathan lump is national

29:22

geographic editor in chief and

29:24

i'm your host peter gwen thanks for

29:26

listening and cel next time