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1:01

Concur. Concur. Concur. Concur. So,

1:08

Hello everyone and welcome to

1:11

another spine tingling episode of

1:13

paranormal activity. I'm your host,

1:15

Tibet Fielding and tonight we're

1:17

delving into one of the

1:20

most profound mysteries of the

1:22

human experience. That big question,

1:24

what happens when we die?

1:27

It's a question that has

1:29

haunted philosophers, theologians, scientists and

1:31

everyday people for millennia. Despite

1:34

all our scientific advances, death

1:36

remains an event shrouded in

1:38

uncertainty or and for many

1:40

total and utter fear. But

1:43

it's also an event that

1:45

every single one of us

1:47

will face. I invite you

1:49

to grab a warm drink,

1:51

settle into a comfortable chair

1:53

and open your mind to

1:55

the myriad perspectives on this

1:58

most universal of topic. Whether

2:00

you approach this from a

2:02

purely scientific perspective or whether

2:04

you're certain there is life

2:06

after death or remain on

2:08

the fence, I hope that

2:10

this discussion broadens your thinking.

2:13

So let's begin. Hello

2:17

and welcome to another episode of Paranormal

2:20

Activity. And joining us today on the

2:22

podcast is a wonderful lady, Dr. Kate

2:24

Woodthorpe, from the University of Bath Centre

2:26

for Death and Society. We're going to

2:29

be chatting to her in a second,

2:31

but as ever, you know I like

2:33

to keep things off with a fact

2:35

or fiction. And as ever listen out

2:38

at the end of the show for

2:40

the answer. Now as we're chatting all

2:42

about what happens to us and our

2:45

soul when we die, I want to

2:47

know whether it's fact or fiction

2:49

that the ancient Egyptians believe that

2:52

mummifications ensure the soul never left

2:54

the body. Is it fact or

2:56

is it all a load of

2:59

nonsense? Find out at the end

3:01

of the show. Now,

3:03

as I mentioned before, I am delighted.

3:06

I'm being joined on today's podcast by

3:08

Dr. Kate Woodthorpe from the University of

3:10

Bath Centre for Death and Society. Kate,

3:13

welcome to the show and thank you

3:15

so much for joining us. Hello, River.

3:17

It's very happy to be here. Oh,

3:19

it's a bit of a strange one,

3:22

isn't it, when you start talking about

3:24

death? Because people say, oh, that's a

3:26

cheery subject, but it is something that

3:29

has perplexed us all, hasn't it, since

3:31

we were created? Well, it's funny you

3:33

say that people kind of think

3:35

it's a bit odd to be

3:38

talking about it, when it's actually,

3:40

like you said, in the introduction,

3:42

it's a universal thing. Everyone, everyone,

3:44

is affected by it. It's one

3:46

of the few guarantees guarantees in

3:49

life. Absolutely. And as I said,

3:51

a lot of people that I

3:53

talk to are terrified of death

3:55

and that affects their life, doesn't

3:57

it? It affects how they...

3:59

live where they go, what they

4:01

do because they're so frightened and

4:04

that's such a shame. Is what

4:06

you do, just describe basically, what

4:08

is the Centre for Death and

4:10

Society, is it helping people understanding

4:12

death a little bit more? Absolutely,

4:14

so we're at the University of

4:16

Bath in the UK and we've

4:18

been around for about 20 years

4:20

now. and we are a group

4:22

of researchers who are in the

4:24

social sciences mainly, who look at

4:26

what it means to die and

4:28

to be bereaved, and how we

4:30

handle their bodies. We look at

4:32

issues that we're not medical doctors,

4:34

we're not psychologists, but we're looking

4:37

more about how do people support

4:39

one another, how do institutions manage

4:41

the end of life, and also

4:44

what happens afterwards. So in your

4:46

expert opinion then, like you say

4:48

you're not medical you're not you

4:50

know I'm not expecting you to

4:53

come out with you know the

4:55

the fibular and you know connects

4:57

to the whatever I don't know

5:00

different parts of brains do this

5:02

that and the other but from

5:04

your experience and what happens to

5:06

the body and the brain upon

5:08

there are there stages that you're

5:10

aware of well obviously it depends

5:12

very much how a person dies

5:15

and whether it's catastrophic event that

5:17

happens instantaneously or within

5:19

a few minutes versus if it happens

5:21

over a period of time. But there's

5:24

a really good book if listeners are

5:26

interested in learning more about how bodies

5:28

actually do die. There's a really good

5:30

book called How We Die by Sherman

5:32

Newron and it goes through the stages

5:34

and basically, yes, a body does shut

5:36

down when it's reaching its end, when

5:39

it's reaching the end of its life.

5:41

there are quite well established norms about

5:43

how organs shut down and eventually how

5:45

the brain shuts down and once and

5:47

there are kind of moments of no

5:49

going back but once something starts to

5:51

trigger another effect that's it the body

5:54

can know it will die within a

5:56

particular time frame. Do you believe in

5:58

a soul? I mean have Have you

6:00

had any scientific evidence or have

6:02

you read any papers to prove

6:04

that we all have one? I've

6:06

never come across anything that proves

6:08

it, but just because there's nothing

6:10

to prove it, I think you

6:12

can't. say it doesn't exist because

6:14

some people think it's highly irrational

6:16

to the idea of having a

6:18

soul but for other people the

6:20

idea that you have there is

6:22

some kind of life force about

6:24

you makes perfect sense and it's

6:26

not in it's not it's actually

6:29

a very rational thing to believe so

6:31

I I don't know I don't know how

6:33

you could prove it or disprove

6:35

it to be honest. There's a

6:37

wonderful, it's quite old now, but

6:39

I've seen it on social media

6:41

or it's on YouTube and I

6:43

think it's an elderly person, it's

6:45

the end of life and I

6:47

think it's the son or the

6:49

grandson they're filming this gentleman and

6:52

he's taking his last breath and

6:54

he captures on camera this beautiful

6:56

single light like a ball of

6:58

light and it's coming at the

7:00

moment of death. out of his

7:02

chest and just rises slowly up.

7:04

Now, when I look at that,

7:06

I think, well, could that just

7:08

be a bit of dust? You

7:10

know, could that, you know, captured

7:12

on this night vision camera? But

7:14

so many people, I mean, it's

7:16

had millions of views because people,

7:18

I think, are so desperate to

7:20

think. I mean I personally believe

7:22

that we do have souls and

7:24

that we do go on and

7:26

we go to a beautiful place.

7:28

That's my belief, that's my faith

7:30

in religion as many people do

7:32

around the world. They all have

7:35

different religions and faiths. But it is

7:37

amazing to me how it's sort of

7:39

like we mentioned at the beginning how

7:41

the chat about death is kind of,

7:43

oh we don't talk about that, it's

7:45

depressing. And yet millions upon millions of

7:47

people were watching that video. Hope. I

7:49

think it's hope isn't it Kate that

7:52

sort of oh could this be it

7:54

could this be true? Have we captured

7:56

something amazing that proves we have a

7:58

soul? Oh I think absolutely. right but

8:00

whether whether you have a religious

8:02

belief or not I think the

8:04

idea that life can be taken

8:06

away from you at any moment

8:09

and that you that the world

8:11

will continue without you which it

8:13

inevitably will is quite is really

8:15

scary you know that we are

8:17

not conditioned or very experienced in

8:19

reflecting on the fact that we

8:21

are our lives our if we're

8:23

lucky 80 odd years on the

8:25

planet is a blink of a

8:27

blink of a blink of a

8:29

blink of an eye in the

8:32

history of the world. It's nothing.

8:34

And the idea that you're so

8:36

insignificant actually, I can imagine, for

8:38

many people. But when you're talking

8:40

to families and in your line

8:42

of work, what's the one thing

8:44

that sort of sticks out in

8:46

your mind that many people ask

8:48

or are afraid of when it

8:50

comes to death? I think many

8:52

people are afraid about pain. That's

8:55

I think that you know and

8:57

and it is it is a

8:59

great unknown it's a bit like

9:01

childbirth I imagine in that you

9:03

can plan and plan and plan

9:05

for it but once actually you're

9:07

in that process it's you have

9:09

to just respond to what's actually

9:11

happening in the moment so lots

9:13

of people talk about wanting to

9:15

die at home for example that's

9:18

their preferred place to be but

9:20

when it comes to it they

9:22

actually say no. send me to

9:24

hospital. I want to have my

9:26

pain really controlled and I want

9:28

someone I want to be in

9:30

that environment so someone's with me

9:32

24-7. So I think pain is

9:34

the biggest one but also the

9:36

idea that you're leaving people behind

9:38

I think is and it is

9:41

I mean it makes me feel

9:43

quite sick to think about my

9:45

children going on without me but

9:47

although I also know that is

9:49

completely naturally normal and that's the

9:51

way it should be. Yeah it

9:53

is isn't it? I mean I've

9:55

spoken on this particular podcast with

9:57

end-of-life carers and they they tell

9:59

me of their experiences with patients

10:01

they're calling and you will have

10:04

you know dealt with this I'm

10:06

sure and spoken to family members

10:08

who will tell you that they've

10:10

the families have witnessed their loved

10:12

one calling out to deceased family

10:14

members saying oh my granddad did

10:16

it oh you know he was

10:18

desperate to get to my grandma

10:20

and he was fighting everybody off

10:22

the doctors he was desperate to

10:24

get to her and a lot

10:27

of people talk about that have

10:29

you had experiences talking to families

10:31

that way? I've certainly heard about

10:33

people seeing people as they're coming

10:35

to the end of their life

10:37

and also when they're unconscious doing

10:39

things that indicate that there's something

10:41

going on deep within their psyche.

10:43

To me, and I say this

10:45

as a person now, not as

10:47

a academic, but there are too

10:50

many coincidences that I've heard about

10:52

anecdotally of people who were deeply

10:54

unconscious and people leave the room

10:56

and then they die. you know

10:58

that they actually wanted to die

11:00

on their own or they didn't

11:02

want to die someone else and

11:04

that makes things like that the

11:06

me think something something that's interesting

11:08

isn't it I've not heard that

11:10

before so it's almost like they

11:13

want to be on their own

11:15

and they don't want anybody around

11:17

them they yes I wonder if,

11:19

you know, you think about these

11:21

near-death experiences, Kate, you know, where,

11:23

I mean, I love these near-death

11:25

experiences, at night time I'm there

11:27

and tucked up in bed. Oh,

11:29

watch, shall I watch? Oh, do

11:31

you know, let's watch that lovely

11:33

documentary on near-death experiences, and I

11:35

absolutely love it, because it gives

11:38

you that hope, that absolute faith,

11:40

when you listen to so many

11:42

people describe very similar experiences. They

11:44

describe looking down, seeing their own

11:46

dead bodies below them, and can

11:48

recount conversations had by the nursing

11:50

staff and doctors that are desperately

11:52

trying hard to save them. And

11:54

it's the same with people in

11:56

comers as well, you know, like...

11:58

You say something is going on

12:01

there in the subconscious. Do you

12:03

think that perhaps near-death experiences are

12:05

a little bit different because some

12:07

of them are so intense and

12:09

so amazing and yet... What you

12:11

just talked about, you know, wanting

12:13

perhaps to be on their own

12:15

and waiting for a loved one

12:17

to leave the room and then

12:19

die. There's definitely something going on,

12:21

isn't there? Perhaps the two are

12:24

very similar or separate? I don't

12:26

know. Fascinating. I mean, I don't

12:28

know either, because the thing is

12:30

the dead... Well, maybe listeners of

12:32

your podcast feel that they can

12:34

talk and tell you what's happened,

12:36

but... Typically, you know, they can't

12:38

tell you what's happened. So people,

12:40

you get people who've had a

12:42

near-death experience who can recount things,

12:44

but if you've actually died, it's

12:47

not like someone can come back

12:49

and tell you what that experience

12:51

was like. I think, I think

12:53

what is known, though, is about

12:55

the senses and so if you're

12:57

hearing things, you may be able

12:59

to be, your brain is taking

13:01

in that information and you may

13:03

be able to piece together information

13:05

to make, you know, to hypothesise

13:07

of what was going on around

13:10

you at the time, but it's

13:12

really, all of this is virtually

13:14

impossible to prove either way. Unless

13:16

you have a weedy board. So

13:18

when you say the senses, the

13:20

hearing is the last to go,

13:22

so your sight goes then, do

13:24

you go... Or you just can't

13:26

open your eyes? Well, I'm just

13:28

thinking when you're, say you're unconscious,

13:30

I think there is evidence out

13:33

there that shows that people can

13:35

hear when they're unconscious. So you

13:37

can still respond to music or

13:39

they can respond to voices. Yes,

13:41

my husband's friends, he was in

13:43

a coma and him and his

13:45

wife had had a conversation and

13:47

they said to each other that

13:49

if either of us ever get

13:51

in a situation where we were

13:53

in a coma. switch the machine

13:56

off I don't want to you

13:58

know prolong my I just don't

14:00

want to be in a coma

14:02

for a long time just switch

14:04

the machine off so it came

14:06

to it where he was in

14:08

a coma and the wife was

14:10

talking to the doctor and he

14:12

was saying what do you want

14:14

to do and he said in

14:16

my head I was screaming because

14:19

I couldn't speak but I could

14:21

hear the conversation don't turn it

14:23

off don't turn it off I'm

14:25

alive I can hear you I

14:27

can hear you and back to

14:29

me when I heard that story

14:31

unfortunately you know they didn't turn

14:33

the machine off and he came

14:36

around and just some amazing stories

14:38

aren't that again with the hearing

14:40

these conversations and being able to

14:43

look down on your body I

14:45

mean There's just so much we

14:47

don't understand, like you mentioned before,

14:49

it's a complete mystery, isn't it?

14:52

And with all the scientific equipment

14:54

we have now, you'd think we'd

14:56

sort of make some kind of

14:58

inroads into exactly what happens to

15:00

us when we die. And speaking of

15:03

inroads, I wanted to ask you about

15:05

the recent findings of a gentleman. I

15:07

think he died when he was in

15:09

an MRI scanner and they looked at

15:11

the brain while he was dying and

15:14

they could see all these lights going

15:16

off. hence life flashing before our eyes.

15:18

I've talked about it before on the

15:20

podcast, but Kate do you think again

15:22

that's something that happens, the brain is

15:25

shutting down, so it's showing you all

15:27

these images of your life that you've

15:29

had before you die. Get

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terms at MintMobile.com. Well I think

17:17

I'm not a medical doctor but

17:19

my understanding is that out of

17:21

all the organs in the body

17:23

the brain is the least known.

17:25

So it is incredibly complex organ

17:27

and it's it's... It's a very

17:29

different and difficult thing to understand.

17:31

So they use MRIs to understand

17:34

how a brain is functioning and

17:36

how it's operating. But even then

17:38

it's very hard to explain how

17:40

to explain consciousness and those kind

17:42

of things. But I wouldn't be

17:44

surprised because it's a bit like

17:46

when you go to sleep. Sometimes

17:48

you know when your brain starts

17:50

to, you can you're kind of

17:53

half awake, half asleep. And your

17:55

brain is putting together information and

17:57

thinking things. through and doing things

17:59

but if you happen to wake

18:01

up you can remember that you

18:03

can remember that surreal state that

18:05

your brain was in but you

18:07

weren't in charge of it you

18:09

weren't actively thinking that thing it's

18:11

like the brain took over almost

18:14

so it wouldn't surprise me that

18:16

when it goes into a crisis

18:18

state or it's actually shutting down

18:20

yes it that it will put

18:22

all these memories together and life

18:24

events just in that kind of

18:26

semi-conscious state Yeah, absolutely. I mean,

18:28

for me personally with my belief,

18:30

that's my, as everybody knows, that's

18:32

what I call, or lots of

18:35

people call, the life review. So

18:37

your soul is being shown very

18:39

quickly, all the things that, you

18:41

know, good bits, bad bits that

18:43

have happened in your life, and

18:45

that is basically, you know, your

18:47

life flashing before your eyes, your

18:49

life review as it were. And

18:51

I wanted to ask you, have

18:53

you had any paranormal experiences yourself?

18:56

I have. I mean, you're the

18:58

first person in my 20-year career

19:00

to date to ever ask that.

19:02

And I do feel a little

19:04

bit kind of always an academic

19:06

do all I let myself go,

19:08

Kate. Let your hair down. Come

19:10

on, girl. I don't know. Yeah,

19:12

academic is all about rational science.

19:14

As a person... Yes, I have.

19:17

I've had Ouija board experiences when

19:19

I was much younger that I

19:21

could not explain and cold patches

19:23

in rooms. And I have my

19:25

own beliefs, I'm not religious, but

19:27

I have my own beliefs about

19:29

kind of life force or the

19:31

universe because things happen in my

19:33

mind and in my world that

19:36

I think that's more than a

19:38

coincidence. There's something has happened there

19:40

that I cannot explain, but it

19:42

helps me know that I'm on

19:44

the right path. That kind of

19:46

thing. So yes, I have my

19:48

own little my own little system

19:50

of understanding. And what do you

19:52

think personally now, not professionally? What

19:54

do you think happens to us

19:57

when we die? And professionally from

19:59

everything that you've heard from families

20:01

and the... Going through the grieving

20:03

period, I'm sure many of them

20:05

will have spoken to you about,

20:07

I'm sure they were with us

20:09

last night or had a dream

20:11

or whatever, what do you personally

20:13

think happens to us when we

20:15

die? It's a really tough one

20:18

because I've had people come to

20:20

me in my dreams that I'm

20:22

convinced that that was real, that

20:24

that was not just my brain

20:26

sorting it out. And I've also

20:28

seen many dead bodies in my

20:30

life through my research and personally.

20:32

And there is something about the

20:34

energy that someone's got around them.

20:36

It is so inert. It doesn't

20:39

move. It's it's it's becomes a

20:41

thing. And there is something about

20:43

the life force of an individual,

20:45

a person that is quite inexplicable

20:47

to me that it's not just

20:49

about breathing and twitching and you

20:51

know, it's something about the energy

20:53

that someone's got around them. gives

20:55

off. I mean, I just think

20:57

that with the living, you can

21:00

pick up that kind of energy

21:02

of people. And if you're quite

21:04

empathetic, you end up responding to

21:06

it a lot. But you can't,

21:08

you couldn't see it. It's actually

21:10

a feeling. Do you have a

21:12

belief yourself that there is a

21:14

heaven or an afterlife? And you

21:16

talk about, you know, how you've

21:18

seen, you know, very vivid dreams,

21:21

by the way, that's marvelous. And,

21:23

you know, so what are your

21:25

thoughts there? Is there a heaven

21:27

in your mind? Are you hoping

21:29

for that? I don't think I

21:31

believe in heaven, but I do

21:33

think that there is something about...

21:35

people being around still and I

21:37

don't know whether that's because they

21:40

actually are around the deceased people

21:42

are around us as we go

21:44

or whether it's that a sense

21:46

of you knew them so well

21:48

that you can feel them and

21:50

you can feel what they would

21:52

be thinking and saying and guiding

21:54

you in your life but to

21:56

me that gives me great comfort.

21:58

to feel, to know that also

22:01

that you're one of a, you

22:03

know, thousands and thousands of

22:05

year-old chain of people and that they've

22:07

lived before you and there'll be people

22:09

living after you. And I think that

22:12

I found that very comforting in terms

22:14

of, you know, that sense of, it

22:16

grounds me because, you know, that

22:18

I'm not the be-all-and-end-all, I'm just,

22:20

you know, that the world is,

22:23

the world and people are so

22:25

much bigger than my little problems

22:27

and I find that very comforting.

22:29

If I may ask, what made

22:31

you get into this side of

22:33

the sort of scientific life career?

22:35

Well, I've written about this in

22:37

the past, so I have made

22:39

it public. When I was a

22:41

teenager, four friends were killed in

22:44

a car crash and that came

22:46

out of the blue completely unexpectedly

22:48

and it was a huge moment

22:50

in my life and I didn't

22:52

realize it then, but I think

22:55

it made me very interested in...

22:57

how people react and how they

22:59

respond and how differently they respond

23:02

in such a traumatic circumstance. And

23:04

I always ended up doing sociology

23:06

and specializing in health and just

23:09

seemed to gravitate all the time

23:11

to the end of life and

23:13

ill health. And I don't know

23:16

why, but when I've thought it

23:18

back, I do think I can pinpoint

23:20

it back to that absolutely pivotal moment

23:22

of realizing that there were no guarantees.

23:25

that can happen to anyone. I've done

23:27

a study before in a mortuary, I

23:29

was telling someone about this the other

23:32

day, but I've done a study in

23:34

a mortuary where I've talked to mortuary

23:36

technicians, they're called APTs, anatomical pathology technologists,

23:39

and they talk about the people that

23:41

they end up receiving into the mortuary, and

23:43

that includes people who are just walking along

23:45

a path and a tree falls on them.

23:47

And I think there's something about, you know,

23:49

I've said that we all hope that we're

23:52

going to live a long life and hopefully

23:54

in good health and hopefully in good health.

23:56

but there are no guarantees. And you can

23:58

do all you can... not due to

24:00

prepare for it and make sure

24:03

it doesn't happen, but you may

24:05

be walking along a path and

24:07

a tree falls on you. So

24:09

you have to just make the

24:11

most of it really. Do you

24:13

think it's made you harder as

24:15

well as a person? I'm just

24:17

thinking now, you know, if somebody

24:19

comes up to you and a

24:21

friend for instance and they're a

24:23

bit fed up or down or

24:25

depressed because I don't know, something...

24:27

minor has happened but it's really

24:29

affected the field depressed it's almost

24:32

like in your mind are you

24:34

thinking come on now pull yourself

24:36

together we've only got a short

24:38

amount of time anything can have

24:40

to a bloody tree can fall

24:42

in it come on let's live

24:44

our lives has it made you

24:46

more positive about your life your

24:48

family just enjoying every moment and

24:50

also I would imagine that with

24:52

your friends you'd be even more

24:54

a real life force to be

24:56

with oh I'd like to think

24:58

so but a thing There is

25:01

a lot of books that are

25:03

written about facing your own death

25:05

and there's a really good one

25:07

that was written many years ago

25:09

called Don't Sweat the small stuff

25:11

brackets. It's all small stuff. So

25:13

there is an idea that it's

25:15

a bit and this is going

25:17

to sound terrible I don't mean

25:19

it sound rude, but it's like

25:21

get over yourself that actually most

25:23

things in life are very trivial

25:25

and You're only going to be

25:27

here you're flushing the pan on

25:30

the history of this planet and

25:32

I think we do have a,

25:34

not an obligation as such, but

25:36

we do have, there is an

25:38

element of, you've just got to

25:40

enjoy it as best you can.

25:42

Otherwise, what's the point? Yes. And

25:44

do you find that that helps

25:46

with grieving families, the people that

25:48

you've worked with, by sort of,

25:50

you know, it's almost like saying

25:52

to them, when I've spoken to

25:54

people, or so they don't want

25:56

the deceased, to see you upset.

25:59

You need to carry on and

26:01

live your life and don't sort

26:03

of be bogged down. It's very

26:05

easy to say it, isn't it,

26:07

when you're not in the middle

26:09

of grieving somebody. But a lot

26:11

of people will... They'll ground themselves

26:13

in that grief and they can't

26:15

seem to get out of it

26:17

You know the sort of I

26:19

mean being grief for a very

26:21

very long time. Is that the

26:23

sort of advice you would give

26:25

to those people? Probably not when

26:27

the grieving. No, but if they've

26:30

been if they've been there for

26:32

a very, what I'm saying is

26:34

is for a very long time,

26:36

so it's you know, it's almost

26:38

like, would you say to someone

26:40

that's been grieving for say six

26:42

months longer, come on now, you

26:44

know, they wouldn't want you to

26:46

be down, they want you to

26:48

live your life and get on

26:50

and almost talk about some of

26:52

your experiences about the man being

26:54

killed by a falling tree. I

26:56

think the difficulty is though is

26:59

that I would probably, that's how

27:01

I would handle things maybe, I

27:03

don't know, I don't know how

27:05

I'd react if I had that,

27:07

really really significant bereavement, but other

27:09

people may actually be very emotional

27:11

people more emotional than I am

27:13

or have less resilience or have

27:15

really difficult life circumstances that means

27:17

that they are very isolated or

27:19

don't have the resources to go

27:21

out and make the best of

27:23

life to begin with. So then

27:25

you have a significant bereavement on

27:28

top of that and it can

27:30

knock them for six entirely. But

27:32

I think the problem is that

27:34

we over medicalised grief so we've

27:36

created situations where we talk about

27:38

pathological grief and the idea that

27:40

someone can't get past it. And

27:42

I think for me as a

27:44

sociologist I think actually significant losses

27:46

in your life. you will grieve

27:48

them, you will have that emotional

27:50

response, that very powerful emotional response

27:52

for a period of time, but

27:54

actually they can part define you

27:57

in the end and it's with

27:59

you all the time. So you

28:01

say you will always be bereaved

28:03

and actually probably everyone on this.

28:05

listening to this right now is

28:07

technically bereaved of someone but you

28:09

don't you don't necessarily identify yourself

28:11

as bereaved but I think that's

28:13

that's that's the idea that I

28:15

have is that you're carrying those

28:17

people with you and those relationships

28:19

that they stay with you regardless

28:21

of whether that person is actually

28:23

alive or not they that relationship

28:26

existed. How do you personally deal

28:28

with, because it is a subject

28:30

that can be quite depressing, you

28:32

know, this is the one big

28:34

thing, isn't it? It's death. How

28:36

do you personally cope with... you

28:38

know after you spent time with

28:40

grieving families and done lots of

28:42

research and so on is your

28:44

downtime sort of very up as

28:46

it were to counterbalance it all?

28:48

Well I think for me I

28:50

have a family I have young

28:52

children I have dogs we get

28:54

out and do things at the

28:57

weekends we I And I'm doing

28:59

this as an academic, which means

29:01

I'm thinking about it intellectually. I

29:03

know that I could never be

29:05

a funeral director. I could never

29:07

be the person who is on

29:09

call and getting the phone call

29:11

at 3 in the morning, and

29:13

you don't know what you're facing.

29:15

You never know what someone's going

29:17

to tell you when you pick

29:19

up the phone and dealing with

29:21

people in their most raw and

29:23

vulnerable moments. I know I couldn't

29:26

do that. So I think I

29:28

have found my niche. when talking

29:30

about death and die and I'm

29:32

doing it more in an intellectual

29:34

way and trying to make sense

29:36

of it as a social experience

29:38

and that works for me. I've

29:40

heard that prior to death, and

29:42

I find this interesting, you must

29:44

have come across it, there are

29:46

some cases without the person knowing

29:48

of their upcoming demise, they'll begin

29:50

to bizarrely start hiding their belongings

29:52

away, put all their pictures. correctly

29:55

in their picture album, get their

29:57

finances sorted. It's almost like the

29:59

soul is preparing for what's coming,

30:01

tying up loose ends. Have you

30:03

come across this? Have you heard

30:05

families talking about that? Oh, absolutely.

30:07

I've seen it in my own

30:09

family. That sense of you can

30:11

feel your life is coming to

30:13

an end and it's a bit

30:15

like nesting when you're... pregnant I

30:17

guess or starting a family it's

30:19

like kind of winding down and

30:21

that reminds me very much about

30:24

animals and I think my understanding

30:26

about a lot of wild animals

30:28

I mean again I'm not a

30:30

botanist or a zoologist but that

30:32

when animals or mammals especially know

30:34

that they're reaching the end of

30:36

their lives or they feel that

30:38

they are they take themselves away

30:40

and they go and hide and

30:42

I think that's quite incredible that

30:44

we potentially similar as mammals. You

30:46

know, we are animals fundamentally at

30:48

the end of the day and

30:50

that's our animalistic mammalian behavior. Yeah,

30:53

it's fascinating to me that I

30:55

hear that time and time again,

30:57

they talk about, oh my dad

30:59

did all of this, and he

31:01

did all of that, and he

31:03

must have known, he must have

31:05

known, and then they get upset,

31:07

thinking that dad must have known,

31:09

he was going to die, but

31:11

I think, no, it must be

31:13

like you say, a natural, in

31:15

some cases, not all, a natural...

31:17

animalistic thing that we do? Absolutely

31:19

fascinating. Do you think there's an

31:22

area where perhaps science and the

31:24

paranormal could ever meet one day

31:26

in the middle and go, my

31:28

goodness me, you know, here's the

31:30

proof, wouldn't that be great? I

31:32

think there's well certainly is especially

31:34

when it comes to the brain

31:36

as we were talking earlier I

31:38

think I was just thinking about

31:40

I wonder what could be done

31:42

to try and understand more about

31:44

the brain at the end of

31:46

life I think the problem is

31:48

those that medicine and science is

31:50

so geared up for the living

31:53

there aren't going to be many

31:55

resources dedicated to understanding dying and

31:57

the dead. Isn't don't you think

31:59

it's fast? and yet frustrating Kate

32:01

that as we mentioned this is

32:03

the big question isn't it and

32:05

a lot of us live in

32:07

fear or got you know death

32:09

death it's gonna happen to us

32:11

whatever it's just definitely gonna happen

32:13

to us and yet it frustrates

32:16

me because I want science to look

32:18

I know I know there are many

32:20

many scientists out there that have looked

32:22

into this throughout the world But it's

32:25

almost like you want more. Can you

32:27

give us more? Find out the answer.

32:29

What happens to us from a scientific

32:31

point of view when we die? And

32:34

I think that would be absolutely wonderful.

32:36

I'm very comforting for an awful lot

32:38

of people, especially in my belief, which

32:40

I know is true, that we go

32:43

on. That our energy goes on. I

32:45

mean, Einstein did say, didn't the

32:47

energy cannot die? It goes on.

32:49

But wouldn't that be marvelous if

32:51

they did come up with something?

32:53

Well it would but I would add to

32:55

that about politicians and the sort

32:58

of political sphere is that

33:00

there are very few incentives

33:02

for investing in the end

33:04

of life and understanding it

33:06

and supporting people who are

33:08

bereaved because it's not a

33:10

vote winner. So I would

33:12

like politicians to pay more

33:14

attention to it as well. I couldn't

33:16

agree with you more we should

33:18

stand Kate, we should stand together.

33:20

We should make this a thing,

33:22

but I think it's so important

33:25

and I also think perhaps, I

33:27

don't know, I'm going down a

33:29

rabbit hole here, Kate says, bear

33:31

with me, I also think that

33:33

maybe the powers that be don't

33:36

want us to know that there

33:38

is something more. Maybe they want us

33:40

to live in fear. I don't know.

33:42

What do you think to that? Uh,

33:45

nothing would surprise me. And

33:47

I also think it suits

33:49

people in power and it

33:51

suits people in positions of

33:53

authority and employers for us

33:55

not to think about our

33:57

modality because it keeps us

33:59

subordinated. It keeps us in our

34:01

place, it keeps us on hamster

34:04

wheel of life, it keeps us

34:06

working and not actually looking up

34:08

and thinking, gosh, how wonderful the

34:10

world is, how wonderful people are,

34:13

how lucky I am to be

34:15

alive, I'm going to live my

34:17

life a bit differently. It doesn't

34:19

suit the people who don't want

34:22

you to do that. Kate, you're

34:24

my kind of woman, and if

34:26

we had a bottle of wine

34:28

now, I know we were drinking

34:31

it and continuing this marvelous conversation.

34:33

Kate, thank you so very much

34:35

indeed. That's Dr. Kate Woodthrop from

34:38

the University of Bath Centre for

34:40

Death and Society. You've been an

34:42

absolute wonderful fountain of knowledge. I've

34:44

thoroughly enjoyed listening to you, and

34:47

I hope perhaps one day you'll

34:49

come back on the show again.

34:51

Thank you, Evase. I've really enjoyed

34:53

this as well. Now

34:58

let's get the answer to

35:00

this week's fact or fiction

35:02

and to remind you it

35:04

was As we were chatting

35:06

all about what happens to

35:08

us and our soul when

35:10

we die I wanted to

35:12

know whether it's fact or

35:14

fiction that the ancient Egyptians

35:16

believe that mummifications Insured the

35:18

soul never left the body

35:20

and what do you think?

35:22

Well the answer is fiction

35:24

Although it's claimed the intricate

35:26

preservation process kept the soul

35:28

physically trapped in the corpse,

35:30

preventing its departure, Egyptians viewed

35:32

momification as a safeguard so

35:35

that the soul's spiritual components

35:37

could reunite if needed. And

35:39

the soul was still believed

35:41

to leave the body after

35:43

death, journeying through the afterlife's

35:45

trials. The preserved body served

35:47

as a home base, not

35:49

a prison keeping the soul

35:51

inside indefinitely. So mummification didn't

35:53

track the soul. It facilitated

35:55

continuity between earthly remains and

35:57

the afterlife realms. with me

35:59

and share your thoughts or

36:01

experiences on what we've spoken

36:03

about today at paranormal activity

36:05

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36:07

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36:09

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