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up next on Passion Strike. I'd

1:01

say, just as a quick snapshot, if

1:03

you feel like you're not just

1:05

a non-essential worker, you're

1:07

a non-essential person, no,

1:09

everybody's essential, everybody's essential,

1:11

everybody matters, and you

1:13

have the potential to

1:15

make a difference in people's lives,

1:18

but if you're walking around

1:20

feeling like that, you've probably

1:22

got this sense of anti-mattering.

1:25

so that you feel like you matter

1:27

now, but you anticipate maybe you

1:29

won't matter down the road. Welcome

1:31

to Passion Struct. Hi, I'm your

1:33

host, John R. Miles, and on

1:35

the show, we decipher the secrets,

1:37

tips, and guidance of the world's

1:39

most inspiring people and turned their

1:41

wisdom into practical advice for you

1:43

and those around you. Our mission

1:45

is to help you unlock the

1:47

power of intentionality so that you

1:49

can become the best version of

1:51

yourself. If you're new to the

1:53

show, I off. for advice and

1:55

answer listener questions on Fridays.

1:57

We have long form interviews.

1:59

the rest of the week

2:01

with guests ranging from astronauts

2:03

to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators,

2:06

scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and

2:08

athletes. Now, let's go out

2:10

there and become Passion Struck.

2:12

Welcome to episode 597 of

2:14

Passion Struck. Whether you're a

2:16

long-time listener or joining us

2:18

for the first time, I

2:20

am so grateful you're here.

2:22

You've tuned into a movement

2:24

dedicated to unlocking your potential.

2:27

living with intention and making

2:29

what truly matters matter most. And

2:31

today, I have to tell you,

2:33

I am absolutely thrilled for this

2:35

episode. If you've been following me

2:37

for a while, you know that

2:39

I've been studying the science of

2:42

mattering for years. It's one of

2:44

the most profound and personal topics

2:46

I've explored on this show, and

2:48

it's the very heart of how

2:50

we build resilient lives, relationships, and

2:53

communities. So it's truly an honor.

2:55

and a full circle moment for

2:57

me to welcome someone I've long

2:59

admired, someone who literally wrote the

3:01

book on the subject, Dr. Gordon

3:04

Flett. Dr. Flett is the author

3:06

of the psychology of matter, as well

3:08

as the new book, Mattering as a

3:10

core need in children and adolescents.

3:13

He recently retired as

3:15

a distinguished professor of

3:17

psychology at York University,

3:19

where he spent decades pioneering

3:21

research into how the feeling

3:23

of mattering, of being seen valued

3:26

and significant shapes everything from our

3:28

mental health and relationships to our

3:30

sense of identity and purpose. In

3:32

our conversation we explore what

3:34

mattering truly means and why

3:37

it's different from self-esteem, belonging,

3:39

or mere connection. The profound

3:41

emotional and psychological toll when

3:44

we experience antimattering and how

3:46

loneliness, depression, and anxiety often

3:49

stem from feeling overlooked or

3:51

underappreciated. We go into practical, actionable

3:53

ways we can enhance our own

3:56

sense of mattering even during life's

3:58

most difficult seasons. We discuss why...

4:00

reciprocal relationships are so vital, and

4:02

how giving mattering to others can

4:04

transform our own lives. And lastly,

4:06

we go deep into understanding mattering

4:09

at the societal level and how

4:11

it could reshape education, workplaces, and

4:13

communities for the better. This episode

4:15

is deeply meaningful for me, and

4:17

I truly believe that it will

4:19

change the way that you think

4:21

about your relationships, your worth, and

4:24

your impact in the world. It's

4:26

not just about feeling good, it's

4:28

about becoming full. Before we dive

4:30

in, let's take a look back at

4:32

the two incredible episodes that led up

4:35

to today. On Tuesday, I sat down

4:37

with Humboldt the Poet to explore one

4:39

of the most misunderstood emotional experiences of

4:41

our time. Anxiety. It's an unfiltered

4:43

conversation about identity, self-worth, and how

4:45

to find calm in a chaotic

4:47

world. And just yesterday, Dr. Emily

4:50

Falk, a troubleizing neuroscientists from the

4:52

University of Pennsylvania, revealed the science

4:54

behind how ideas spread, what makes

4:56

messages persuasive, and how understanding brain

4:59

synchrony can transform how we connect,

5:01

influence, and communicate. If you want

5:03

to become a more intentional messenger

5:05

of change, make sure to check

5:08

it out. And here's something else.

5:10

Next week I'm making a big

5:12

announcement. One that's been in the

5:14

works for a long time. I

5:16

can't say too much just yet,

5:18

but trust me, you'll want to

5:20

tune in for the big reveal.

5:22

For those eager to dive deeper

5:24

into our most popular topics, check

5:26

out our episode starter packs at

5:28

Hashinstruck.com/starter packs with over five hundred

5:30

and ninety episodes. We've created curated

5:32

playlists covering themes like mental toughness,

5:34

emotional mastery and personal growth. And don't

5:36

forget to subscribe to my live

5:39

intentionally newsletter for exclusive insights and

5:41

behind-the-scenes stories you won't find anywhere

5:43

else. Now, let's get into this

5:46

transformative conversation about why mattering

5:48

is a core human need and how

5:50

understanding it can unlock deeper meaning, greater

5:52

being, and more powerful human connection with

5:54

the one and only Dr. Gordon Flett.

5:57

Thank you for choosing Passionstruck and choosing

5:59

me. to be your hosting guide

6:01

on your journey to creating an intentional

6:04

life. Now, let that journey begin. Hey

6:06

Passion Stark, fam. The perfect vacation

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includes a lot of adventure and

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travel texas.com and start

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planning your trip today. Let's

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Texas. Hey

7:18

passion struck family. I have

7:20

an extraordinary guest today, someone

7:22

who I've wanted to have

7:24

on this podcast for about

7:26

18 months, and we finally made

7:29

it happen. I'm so honored and privileged

7:31

to welcome Dr. Gordon flat

7:33

to passion struck. Welcome Gordon.

7:36

Thanks for having me, John. I am

7:38

glad we finally got together and we

7:40

have done a lot of things, I believe.

7:42

Well, just before we came on

7:45

the error, you told me that

7:47

you recently retired. from your teaching position,

7:49

but you were just bestowed an honor

7:51

and I thought it was important to

7:53

maybe start there. Can you tell us

7:55

what that honor was? I was just

7:57

named the honorary president of the Canadian.

8:00

and psychological association, which is

8:02

quite an honor and has

8:04

had former presidents like

8:06

Albert Bandura and Kahneman, of

8:09

Kahneman, and Tverski. But to

8:11

me, it's an opportunity to

8:13

get people to find out

8:15

more about mattering. I'll be

8:17

giving a keynote address at our

8:20

annual convention and it'll be focused

8:22

on mattering and how it

8:24

can make a difference in

8:26

people's lives. a well-deserved

8:28

recognition and congratulations to

8:31

you and wanted to

8:33

just start today's discussion

8:35

with just a little bit of

8:37

history. I have really been trying

8:40

to understand why are there so

8:42

many people and when I say so

8:44

many I'm talking in the neighborhood

8:46

of billions who are facing

8:48

so many issues in their life

8:51

from feeling helpless and hopeless to

8:53

lonely to rising mental health to

8:55

anxiety and I kept trying

8:57

to search for was there some

9:00

linchpin that was tying this all

9:02

together and I remember I was

9:04

talking to Tom Curran in an episode

9:06

and we were talking about perfectionism

9:09

and I was telling him

9:11

I had spoken to Angela Duckworth

9:13

and Ethan Cross and all

9:15

these people with these famous researchers

9:18

and I said I can't find

9:20

anyone who was studying mattering

9:22

and he goes have you

9:24

ever heard of Dr. Gordon

9:26

Fletcher. And I said, I

9:28

have not. And so I

9:30

immediately started googling you and

9:32

reading everything I could get

9:34

my hands on that that

9:36

you had produced. And you are

9:38

at the epicenter of this nascent

9:41

world of studying mattering, which

9:43

I think is one of

9:45

the most. important concepts

9:47

that we need today. So I

9:50

was hoping with that as a

9:52

backdrop, Gordon, that we could start

9:54

at the beginning. Sure. As I've done

9:56

research, you first discovered the

9:58

concept of math. as a

10:00

graduate student in the late 80s. Can

10:03

you describe that moment of when

10:05

you discovered it and why

10:07

it resonated so deeply? It was fortuitous

10:09

in the sense that I was a

10:11

member of a club by one of

10:13

the publishers that had discount books for

10:16

graduate students and I saw this book

10:18

on the self and I sent off

10:20

for it at the low price that

10:22

they were offering it for and along

10:25

with the provisions don't share it with

10:27

others. And I came across this chapter

10:29

by Morris Rosenberg who was the person

10:31

who originated the concept of mattering and

10:33

in that chapter there was five pages

10:36

and he gave the impression that. here's

10:38

this totally neglected element of the

10:40

self that's so relevant to

10:42

people of all ages so predictive

10:44

and I just filed that away

10:46

thinking well why aren't people studying

10:48

this but then I left alone

10:51

I had to finish my work on

10:53

my dissertation on depression and then

10:55

later we were doing a project

10:57

on the transition to college and

11:00

I'm actually just finishing a paper

11:02

on transition and the role of

11:04

maturing as a key resource and

11:06

I said, one of the postdoctoral students

11:08

said, hey, I came across the

11:11

scale on mattering, and immediately the

11:13

light bulb went off, and I

11:15

said, yeah, we need to be

11:17

including this. And at the same

11:19

time, I was asked to be

11:21

the researcher for a provincial program

11:23

on developing a resilience prevention program

11:25

and encouragement program for young people.

11:27

We were kicking around concepts and

11:29

I said, well, there's this concept

11:31

of mattering and with educators, they

11:33

knew exactly what I was talking

11:35

about. It's tied into the idea

11:37

of the one caring adult who

11:39

can change a kid's life, like

11:41

Oprah Winfrey did with her teacher

11:43

who she had on in her

11:45

second last show. So we included it

11:47

as well. And while we were looking at,

11:49

that's when I also came up with the

11:52

idea that just as important it is to

11:54

feel like you matter. The feeling of

11:56

not mattering is also something that sticks

11:58

with you at a very deep. level

12:00

so we started measuring it there.

12:02

But aside from that I'd say that

12:04

I look back and I said was

12:07

I being prepared to realize that this

12:09

was a concept I was very fortunate

12:11

to be raised by loving parents and

12:14

grandparents and we actually had two grandparents

12:16

in my aunt in the house growing

12:18

up so I had surrounded by adults

12:21

and my my paternal grandmother I was

12:23

the first born so I was treated

12:25

like that spoiled special kid but I

12:27

got a lot of attention. And then

12:30

later on, the school experiences, including when

12:32

our daughters, we have two daughters now

12:34

grown up and the local school is

12:36

just a block away, and that school

12:38

was all about mattering. And when you

12:41

have environments where it's right at the

12:43

top to the principal and the staff

12:45

who ironically, I just met the principal

12:47

again a couple of days ago at

12:49

an event, they're all about the importance

12:52

of the child as a person. not

12:54

just the curriculum, and really to the

12:56

point where the principal on a school

12:58

of 900 students knew every kid by

13:00

name and something about them so that

13:02

she could walk up to them. and

13:04

the playground during recess and then just

13:07

start talking and really giving that sense

13:09

of individual attention, which is one of

13:11

the ways you end up feeling like

13:13

you matter. And then when I became

13:16

a faculty member at York, I became

13:18

the undergraduate director and I had these

13:20

students come in who had many of

13:23

the things that you described in terms

13:25

of loneliness, disconnection, demoralized, depression, and these

13:27

were excellent students who had just not

13:29

got off to a great start. And

13:32

what they needed was somebody like me in

13:34

that position to be able to show some

13:36

faith in them and to give them some

13:38

strategies. And one of the things that

13:40

goes along with mattering it's the

13:42

secret power I say a secret

13:44

sauce of mattering is that it's

13:46

very strongly correlated with hope. People who

13:49

feel like they matter have a sense of

13:51

hopefulness about them at a very high level

13:53

and not just hope in terms of being

13:55

able to do things and make things

13:57

happen but hopefulness about other people.

13:59

And other people are going to be

14:02

for them when they need it. And

14:04

so I saw it and I've seen

14:06

it in other people in terms of

14:08

just how it's changed their lives and

14:10

brought them from a position where they're

14:12

really not doing all that well to

14:14

a position where hey, suddenly they realize

14:16

their strengths and they're more likely to

14:18

develop self-compassion and other positive things that

14:21

go along with it. And in my new

14:23

work, a new book coming out, I

14:25

talk about it with kids, how. if

14:27

they feel like they matter it comes

14:29

with a host of other strengths usually

14:31

including hope and positive orientation towards the

14:33

future and a sense of resilience that

14:35

they'll be able to overcome challenges and

14:37

obstacles and adapt as new situations emerged

14:40

as new situations emerged. They said I

14:42

just recently retired but I'm busier than

14:44

ever and it's like the famous line

14:46

from the Alpaccino and the Godfather just

14:48

when I think I'm out they pull

14:50

me back in and that's what mattering.

14:52

There's much more to be learned about

14:54

it. much more in terms of

14:56

heightening awareness, which is another

14:59

reason why I appreciate this

15:01

opportunity today. So I'm

15:03

thinking about the best place to

15:05

go and I want to come

15:07

back to your grandmother's story here

15:09

in a second, but I think

15:11

before we do, it might be best

15:13

for you to ground the listeners

15:16

or viewers on when you

15:18

define mattering, what words do you

15:20

use? Well, mattering... It's essentially

15:22

defined as feeling important, feeling

15:25

significant, feeling like people are

15:27

paying attention to you. What I really

15:29

come down to and something we've added

15:32

much more focus on recently is a

15:34

sense of that you feel cared about

15:36

that somebody cares about you and somebody

15:38

really is looking out for you and thinking

15:40

of you and when you have that you

15:42

can be able to carry that from

15:45

situation to situation even when those

15:47

people aren't there. And then of course

15:49

the flip side is when you feel

15:51

like you don't matter so you're not

15:53

heard you're not seen you're feeling invisible

15:56

you're feeling overlooked maybe feeling forgotten which

15:58

we call anti mattering and that feeling

16:00

is something that some people have at

16:02

a chronic level. But you can also

16:04

have those kinds of experiences, even if

16:06

you have a sense of mattering and

16:08

you have to learn how to cope

16:10

with that kind of treatment. But another

16:12

element of it that's key, because it

16:14

almost sounds like you're waiting for somebody

16:16

to treat you the right way, but

16:19

also you can generate feelings of mattering.

16:21

by going out and doing things for

16:23

others. Isaac Prilotenski has talked about this

16:25

in terms of adding value to other

16:27

people's lives. And this is what I

16:29

tell someone who says, well, people just aren't

16:31

treating me the way I need to be

16:34

treated. I'm just going to have to deal

16:36

with this. And I say, well, you can become

16:38

more involved. You can find a cause.

16:40

You can make a difference in somebody

16:42

else's life. And you know that you

16:44

matter to them, at least. and then

16:46

you can go from there. But really

16:48

it's something that's described as a feeling

16:50

in terms of that, how does it

16:53

make you feel when you feel like

16:55

you matter or don't, but also it's

16:57

described as a need so that everybody

16:59

has a need to matter and so

17:01

that everybody has a need to matter and

17:03

it's believed to matter, so that

17:05

everybody has a need to matter and

17:07

it's believed to matter and needing to

17:10

feel like you're making a difference or

17:12

people would miss you if you weren't

17:14

around anymore. I think it's

17:16

important because when I was doing

17:18

my research, a lot of people

17:20

pointed me towards the work of

17:23

Jeff Cohen on belonging or I

17:25

was pointed to study work on

17:27

self-esteem or study work on

17:29

happiness. How does mattering differ

17:31

from belonging or self-esteem or

17:33

happiness? Yeah, it's a very

17:36

important point. When I was just being

17:38

doing work on this, somebody get reviewers

17:40

that said, well, I already studied this

17:43

and it's called belonging. And I said

17:45

there's a difference and the difference has

17:47

to do with I see Matt, I

17:49

see belonging as you're fitting into

17:52

a place somewhere where you're in the

17:54

circle, but mattering comes into play as

17:56

if you're in a group setting for

17:58

instance when people. recognize you and hear

18:01

your voice. When I had this experience

18:03

sometimes at meetings where I'm at, where

18:05

I said, well, I belong at this

18:07

meeting, they let me into this meeting,

18:10

but nobody seems to want to hear

18:12

what I'm saying. So it's not just

18:14

fitting in, it's a sense of importance

18:16

or being valued within the belonging setting.

18:19

And one key difference is that school

18:21

boards have told me, educators have

18:23

told me that they can identify

18:25

kids and they have identified kids

18:27

who have a sense of belonging.

18:29

when they're measured, but they don't have

18:31

a sense of being valued. And they

18:33

said for some reason, it seems that these

18:36

are the kids that may be the worst

18:38

off in the sense that they're wondering why

18:40

don't I have a sense of value even

18:42

though I clearly belong here? As for

18:45

self-esteem and the original work by

18:47

Rosenberg, he made the key point

18:49

that it's not just self-esteem that

18:51

it's unique. element self-esteem is

18:53

more about feeling like and feeling

18:55

competent feeling competent but mattering is

18:57

that sense of feeling valued and

19:00

being important and he showed in

19:02

his original work that once you

19:04

took into account self-esteem that mattering

19:06

was very much more predictive over

19:08

and above and there's been multiple

19:11

papers because that's the challenge for

19:13

researchers when they have something that

19:15

they think is fairly new is

19:17

they have to show that it

19:19

predicts above and beyond. other measures

19:21

like self-esteem or sense of belonging.

19:23

And of course they're all correlated,

19:25

so somebody who feels like they

19:27

matter tends to have higher levels

19:29

of self-esteem and higher levels of

19:32

belonging, but they're different. And

19:34

when somebody has a lack of

19:36

mattering as their core thing, there's

19:38

no way around it by boosting

19:40

self-esteem where you might add to some

19:42

narcissistic tendencies or the sense of belonging. And

19:45

I found this one time, by the way,

19:47

with a boy who and given one of

19:49

our questionnaires and he wrote on it when

19:51

we're supposed to write on it, he'd circled,

19:53

I don't matter to anyone. And then he

19:56

says, and this I know for sure, he

19:58

wrote. I was telling this. I said, look,

20:00

with this boy, he's coming for counseling,

20:03

unless you address that core sense

20:05

of not mattering, educational initiatives,

20:07

self-esteem initiatives, aren't

20:09

going to get to what he needs

20:11

because he's got that core sense of

20:13

just not being important to anyone when

20:16

he overgeneralized. And that's the thing about

20:18

mattering is that you can say, I

20:20

don't matter to anyone. That's why it's

20:22

important for someone to show somebody

20:25

they matter because then they can no

20:27

longer say I don't matter to anyone.

20:29

and then all react as a

20:31

result of that. I'm sure you're

20:33

familiar with the belonging

20:35

barometer that the American

20:37

Immigration Council put out,

20:39

but when you talk

20:41

about not feeling like you

20:43

belong, I think the figure was

20:46

17% of people feel like they

20:48

don't belong or don't feel like

20:50

they matter at any point in

20:52

their life, which is a huge number

20:54

when you think about it. And

20:57

the numbers are close to 70% who feel they

20:59

don't belong in their work environments, the

21:01

same thing with their communities. This is

21:03

a huge thing. Yeah, I just want

21:05

to look at those numbers. I just

21:07

want to add that in our original

21:09

work with the school board, about two-thirds of

21:11

the kids said they felt they mattered, but

21:14

the other third said they either didn't matter

21:16

or they weren't sure. And a really important

21:18

element, then the thing to realize

21:20

about mattering is we can measure

21:23

it generally as we typically do.

21:25

but you can measure mattering at

21:27

school, mattering in the community, mattering

21:29

at work, so it cuts across

21:32

these domains. And research that's been

21:34

done with kids mostly in the

21:36

US on the mattering in the

21:38

community indicates that 45 to 50% of

21:40

them say they don't matter in the community.

21:42

And to me, I said, well, we don't address

21:45

that as a core thing. What chance is there

21:47

in terms of raising well-being and helping

21:49

them develop the way they could

21:51

in terms of their potential? It's

21:53

shocking when you think about the sheer

21:56

volume of people at different ages

21:58

who feel like they don't matter. It

22:00

is shocking. And I want to

22:02

get more into that. I wanted

22:04

to ask you one more thing

22:06

around science. So when I talked

22:08

to my friend Ethan Cross about

22:11

mattering and I was asking him

22:13

where he suggested I should look,

22:15

he turned me towards Edward D.C.

22:17

and Richard Ryan's work on self-determination

22:19

theory. And I have seen the

22:21

linkages between the need for intrinsic

22:23

motivation and mattering. When you look

22:25

at it, where would you say

22:27

it crosses and where do you

22:29

think mattering goes well beyond self-determination

22:31

theory? Right, right. Well, their theory

22:33

focuses on three primary needs that

22:35

everyone needs to have satisfied, the

22:37

need for autonomy, the need for

22:39

competence and the need for relatedness.

22:41

So it links mostly with the

22:44

need for relatedness. But I actually

22:46

did find a quote from them

22:48

that I'm cherishing that I found

22:50

where they talked about belonging and

22:52

mattering. It's tucked away, but I

22:54

cite it now quite frequently and

22:56

realize that they had been thinking

22:58

about this without going and drilling

23:00

down. People who are feeling like

23:02

they matter feel like they have

23:04

a sense of agency, they have

23:06

a sense of self-determination. but they

23:08

also have unfulfilled needs in terms

23:10

of that sense of confidence and

23:12

autonomy. And we've shown with our

23:15

work on the anti-mattering, which that

23:17

feeling invisible that when people say

23:19

they feel a strong sense of

23:21

not mattering with that scale, it's

23:23

very robustly correlated with all of

23:25

those needs in terms of deficits

23:27

across those three core needs. but

23:29

it predicts above and beyond in

23:31

terms of other outcomes. Let me

23:33

put it to you this way.

23:35

One of my students also has

23:37

a class that he's teaching, gave

23:39

an exercise to the students and

23:41

said, here's what confidence is, here's

23:43

what relatedness is, here's what this

23:45

is, here's what this is, here's

23:48

a bunch of other needs, including

23:50

this one we call mattering, please

23:52

rank them in terms of which

23:54

is the most important to you.

23:56

you know, and mattering came out

23:58

over and above those other ones.

24:00

And another illustration with the school

24:02

board project is we had principles

24:04

at a table where we had

24:06

all these concepts on cutouts. And

24:08

we said we got like 15

24:10

psychological concepts here like jargon city

24:12

in terms of we got self-compassion

24:14

and optimism and grit and all

24:16

of these growth mindset. And they

24:18

said, well, all these are important,

24:21

but we said, which one would

24:23

you pick? And just go through

24:25

them in order. And the principles

24:27

unanimously agreed that mattering was the

24:29

top thing out of the 14

24:31

or 15 that they picked. And

24:33

when asked why, they said it's

24:35

because it applies to everyone, it

24:37

applies to our students, it applies

24:39

to our teachers, it applies to

24:41

our staff and the custodial staff,

24:43

the parents and the community. And

24:45

then they made the tie into

24:47

the. the kid with the one

24:49

caring adult who changes the life

24:52

of that kid. When I see

24:54

those sorts of things, that's how

24:56

I know that we can look

24:58

at research findings, but it's something

25:00

that has incredible resonance with people

25:02

once they understand what the concept

25:04

is. And usually they then tie

25:06

that to somebody that they've known

25:08

in their past has made them

25:10

feel that way. And what do

25:12

you think is that link that

25:14

gets people to understand the concept?

25:16

Because... When I try to explain

25:18

it, I remember I was having

25:20

this discussion with a person in

25:22

the PR field and I was

25:25

talking to them about the need

25:27

to matter and they go, well,

25:29

everyone has a different sense of

25:31

matter. And I said, well, that

25:33

is exactly true. We all have

25:35

our own view, but I think

25:37

they're commonalities that we all share

25:39

as well. And we tend to

25:41

focus on the differences instead of

25:43

the commonalities. But how would you

25:45

answer that? What I would say

25:47

is like people talk about as

25:49

we have talked about belonging they

25:51

talk about connection but mattering is

25:53

about those special connections that everybody

25:55

wants to feel special to someone.

25:58

They want somebody who truly understands

26:00

them at a level that nobody

26:02

else does and so many people

26:04

don't feel understood and they don't

26:06

feel seen or heard. But it's

26:08

largely about those feelings and it's

26:10

tied to memories that people have

26:12

that a time when they've had

26:14

someone like that. And I remind

26:16

myself of this when I go

26:18

and I look at popular things

26:20

that are out there like why

26:22

are some of these things so

26:24

popular so fictional wise I always

26:26

come to the movie it's a

26:28

wonderful life where there's Jimmy Stewart's

26:31

character shown what would be like

26:33

if he didn't exist which you

26:35

know you don't matter you don't

26:37

exist. The other fictional example I

26:39

point to is Mr. Holland's opus

26:41

with Richard Dreyfus at the end

26:43

when he thinks he's wasted his

26:45

life and he's not really going

26:47

to do the great symphony and

26:49

he retires and there's that room,

26:51

the auditorium filled with his former

26:53

students who he's impacted in ways

26:55

he didn't understand. And it's the

26:57

value of the rewardingness of people

26:59

and the comfort that comes from

27:02

knowing that there are people who

27:04

really, you know. It's not just

27:06

loving you but they really care

27:08

about you and they would miss

27:10

you if you weren't around and

27:12

it even goes through I realized

27:14

I was looking at I gave

27:16

a talk for a hospice organization

27:18

and the Sicily Saunders I believe

27:20

is her name who has the

27:22

famous phrase you matter to the

27:24

end of your life even when

27:26

you're not here no longer you

27:28

matter and you'll never be forgotten

27:30

that sense of people want it's

27:32

about their identity too it's like

27:35

they want a sense of unique

27:37

identity and I added this in

27:39

my description of mattering the need

27:41

to feel like a unique individual

27:43

who people are seeing as somebody

27:45

with unique positive properties, a sense

27:47

of individualization. And people, that's the

27:49

thing about belonging versus mattering is

27:51

that you've got a unique identity

27:53

within that group. Absolutely. And the

27:55

way I look at it is

27:57

I've developed this framework where I

27:59

think it's starts with how you matter

28:02

to yourself, then how do you

28:04

matter to others? How do you

28:06

make other people feel they matter?

28:09

And then how do you then

28:11

extend mattering beyond

28:13

yourself to the

28:15

community around you? And

28:17

I think when you talk about

28:19

the second one, how other

28:21

people make you feel you

28:24

matter and then how you

28:26

make other people feel they

28:28

matter, there's something. that comes

28:30

in with reciprocity. Is that something

28:32

that you've looked at? Yes, I haven't

28:34

studied reciprocity per se, but in

28:37

the new book that we just,

28:39

you know, I just finished, talk

28:41

about mutual mattering in terms of

28:43

that reciprocity and when you're really

28:45

locked in with somebody, you've got

28:47

that sense of reciprocity where they understand

28:49

you and you understand them, but they're

28:52

looking out for you and you're looking

28:54

out for them. And the book I

28:56

always go back to read to remind

28:58

myself of this is Tuesdays with Moray.

29:01

It should have been called Tuesdays with

29:03

Moray and Mitch, Mitch Albam's book that

29:05

was a gigantic bestseller. And I said,

29:08

there's Mitch Albam going back to visit

29:10

his professor who's in his final days

29:12

or he's heading in that direction and

29:15

that sense of caring about each other

29:17

and how much he seemed to miss

29:19

that in terms of when they'd lost

29:21

contact. And that's the key and that's

29:23

the best thing in terms of.

29:25

parent-child relationships where you know there's

29:27

that sense of connection where the

29:29

child is showing concern for the

29:31

parents feelings as well in that

29:33

when we ever they get to

29:35

that stage some young people intuitively

29:37

seem to have that component.

29:39

My reciprocity is key. One-sided mattering is

29:42

going to feel bad at some point

29:44

in terms of hey I doing all

29:46

this stuff for them but they're not

29:48

doing it for me. Nancy Schlossberg who

29:50

was another big name in the field.

29:53

looked at this in terms of caregivers and

29:55

she said it's the only time when you

29:57

feel that mattering is not really good is

29:59

that it's you're feeling too dependent

30:01

on and it's more one way so

30:04

that you're not getting the recognition so

30:06

you have to perhaps remind yourself

30:08

of times when if it's an aging

30:10

parent maybe dealing with dementia when they

30:13

were able to engage that way or

30:15

there'll be moments where you get that

30:17

glimmer but when it's too one way

30:19

it can become a sort of a

30:21

compulsive thing where it's all focusing on

30:24

other people's needs. Especially glad your

30:26

framework includes that focus on mattering

30:28

to yourself because ultimately I fear

30:30

what happens with far too many

30:32

people is they don't feel like

30:34

they matter to others and then

30:36

they internalize it. I talk about

30:39

this in terms of the internalization

30:41

so that I don't matter to

30:43

anyone, I don't matter to myself

30:45

anymore which potentiates a lot of

30:47

very bad risky behaviors with young

30:49

people that could be internalizing in

30:51

terms of self-harm but it could

30:53

also be acting out and doing

30:55

things where you're not worrying about

30:57

consequences because you don't see a future

31:00

and mattering to yourself wraps around that

31:02

concept of hope and optimism in terms

31:04

of what you were yourself in terms

31:06

of the future. And if you don't

31:08

matter to yourself, then you just act

31:10

whichever which way because you're not seeing

31:12

anything that you're going to lose down the

31:14

road. Psychologists, I'm not

31:16

a clinical psychologist, my closest colleague in

31:19

the perfectionism work. Paul Hu, we've been

31:21

working together for 30, 35 years now,

31:23

and he talks about the relationship that

31:25

the self has with the self, that

31:28

you've got to be kind to yourself, you've

31:30

got to care about yourself, and not be

31:32

so hard on yourself as perfectionists tend

31:35

to be, because they feel that they're

31:37

pushing themselves by being so hard

31:39

on themselves, but ultimately it's a

31:41

recipe for exhaustion and being totally

31:44

drained. You've got to learn to

31:46

be accepting of oneself over here, set

31:48

up for all those bad choices.

31:50

So as I was discussing this

31:53

concept with my wife, we were

31:55

talking about events like Easter, which

31:57

is coming up or Christmas, Hanukkah.

32:00

where to me, I always feel

32:02

the most emotionally involved

32:04

in the holidays when

32:06

I'm giving a gift to

32:09

someone else, much more than when

32:11

I'm receiving a gift

32:13

from someone. It wouldn't

32:15

be the same if I

32:17

didn't intentionally go out and

32:19

select that gift for them,

32:22

wondering how they're going

32:24

to react to it. wanting

32:26

to see their anticipation, etc. So

32:28

when you think about that, what

32:30

are the psychological benefits

32:32

that come specifically from

32:35

giving mattering to others, not

32:37

just receiving it? Yeah, I have to

32:39

say here that when you said to giving

32:41

a gift, I immediately my mind went

32:43

to being at the bottom of our

32:46

stairs here, waiting for our daughters to

32:48

come down the stairs. to see cotton

32:50

sneaking down there early a couple of

32:52

times along the way too, but just

32:54

the looks on people's faces and how

32:56

that makes you feel to realize that

32:58

you've had that impact where people

33:01

think, wow, that's somebody who's really thinking

33:03

about me. And I did find that

33:05

as a big shift for me as

33:07

you get older, that, but you do

33:09

get that sense of having a positive

33:11

impact. So it reflects back on you

33:13

in terms of you in terms of

33:15

you can make a difference in other

33:17

people's lives and that special glow. which

33:19

I learned back when I was the

33:21

undergraduate director because this person I inherited

33:23

the role from said, unlike most things

33:25

where you send a paper off to

33:27

a journal and be waiting months and

33:29

wondering is anybody going to read this

33:31

when I actually have it out there but

33:33

goes out there? When you're the undergraduate director you

33:35

have students with real problems, real lives

33:38

right there, you can do something about

33:40

it and he says you'll get that

33:42

glow of knowing that hey. I actually am

33:44

making a difference around here that this

33:46

student's life is going to be better.

33:48

This person got back on track and

33:50

does develop a sense of what we

33:53

interpersonal efficacy where you feel you can

33:55

have a positive impact on others and

33:57

some people I think of taking

33:59

what they've learn through mattering to

34:01

others in terms of relationships. And

34:03

then they've gone on to careers

34:05

in terms of public service. And

34:07

anybody who's in a public service

34:09

will know about what it means

34:11

in terms of wanting to make

34:13

a difference in people's lives and

34:16

how you feel like you do

34:18

make a difference in people's lives.

34:20

And when they're prone to burnout

34:22

is when they get to that

34:24

point of saying, I don't matter.

34:26

Nobody's paying attention to this. If

34:28

I didn't show up for work,

34:30

nobody would miss me. And that's

34:32

one of the key elements that's

34:34

not been studied extensively, but there's

34:37

clear links between feelings of not

34:39

mattering and psychological burnout and demoralization

34:41

in the workplace. To the point

34:43

that the U.S. Surgeon General v.

34:45

Murphy, Dr. Murphy, Dr. Murphy, included

34:47

that as one of his five

34:49

pillars in terms of the workplace.

34:51

I think back to the pandemic.

34:53

And here's those situations where we

34:55

celebrated first line people, front line

34:57

people, and celebrations at night, ringing

35:00

bells and that. And then later

35:02

I've seen a council going, hey,

35:04

where did all the appreciation go?

35:06

Because suddenly it's not taking on

35:08

that spotlight. But you get that

35:10

sense of making a difference in

35:12

people's lives that that and they're

35:14

a key part, which Nancy Sloshberg

35:16

talked about. a key element of

35:18

the matter in concept is the

35:21

feeling of being appreciated. Once you

35:23

know that you're appreciated, it's like

35:25

a sense of validation that's not

35:27

going to be creating narcissism or

35:29

false feelings about the self that,

35:31

hey, somebody sees that I made

35:33

a difference. And this is when

35:35

I'm asked to give advice for

35:37

perfectionistic kids and their parents, parents

35:39

say, well, what can we do?

35:42

So how about you spend some

35:44

time volunteering where your child learns

35:46

that it's not all about grades

35:48

competition, but you can actually feel

35:50

really good about yourself in a

35:52

lasting way by going out and

35:54

doing something for other people and

35:56

you don't forget it. And but

35:58

also when you're in a occupation

36:00

where you feel you should be

36:02

getting some acknowledgement and appreciate and

36:05

instead maybe you get criticism or

36:07

no attention it can cut you

36:09

both ways in terms of that

36:11

as well. For sure. So we've

36:13

talked a little bit about anti-mattering

36:15

and you gave the definition of

36:17

mattering. So how would a listener

36:19

know if they might be experiencing

36:21

anti-mattering? Are there certain psychological or

36:23

emotional? signs that someone might be

36:26

feeling. Yeah, I won't go into

36:28

this in great detail in terms

36:30

of the scale. It talks about

36:32

things like to what extent do

36:34

you feel insignificant to what extent

36:36

do you feel invisible? But I

36:38

think one of the things that's

36:40

correlated with anti-mattering that probably might

36:42

amplify feelings of it is when

36:44

people feel really isolated and lonely.

36:46

There's a very strong correlation. I

36:49

just have a recent chapter on

36:51

loneliness and feelings of not mattering

36:53

and the premise of the chapter

36:55

is the loneliness epidemic actually an

36:57

epidemic of feelings of not mattering

36:59

because they're so highly correlated and

37:01

even when I look at the

37:03

items to measure loneliness per se

37:05

I see all these anti mattering

37:07

type items that are in there

37:10

that sort of pull for those

37:12

two to be related so it's

37:14

a sense though of really feeling

37:16

like you weren't around nobody would

37:18

miss you and then there's different

37:20

levels of it so that you

37:22

know you can have a moderate

37:24

level but if you have an

37:26

extreme level which sadly some people

37:28

do I've seen perfect spores on

37:30

our measure that are so alarming

37:33

this is where you'd say I

37:35

don't matter to anyone and people

37:37

seem to be going out of

37:39

the way to make me feel

37:41

insignificant where they look through and

37:43

past me people in homelessness situations

37:45

say you feel like people are

37:47

just looking beyond them and they're

37:49

not really there but some people

37:51

have lives lives like that and

37:54

it's also possible to have a

37:56

general feeling of mattering because we

37:58

shown in profiles that people have

38:00

a sense of positive mattering, but

38:02

they also have a sense of

38:04

any mattering because maybe they have

38:06

a background where they know they

38:08

matter to people, but they're in

38:10

a work context where they're made

38:12

to feel irrelevant and that famous

38:14

thing about essential workers versus non-essential

38:17

workers. I'd say, just as a

38:19

quick snapshot, if you feel like you're not

38:21

just a non-essential worker, you're a

38:23

non-essential person. Everybody is essential. Everybody

38:25

matters. and you have the potential

38:28

to make a difference in people's

38:30

lives but if you're walking around

38:32

feeling like that you've probably

38:34

got this sense of anti-mattering and

38:36

the other thing that we've been

38:38

studying lately as an extension of

38:41

that is the fear of not mattering

38:43

so that you feel like you matter

38:45

now but you anticipate maybe you won't

38:47

matter down the road so it could

38:49

be in my context for example okay

38:51

I'm facing retirement Am I still going to

38:53

have attention paid to me? Do I have

38:55

to stop people on the street now and

38:58

start ramming a madman? And that fear of

39:00

not mattering, I think, makes people just

39:02

keep striving of their perfectionists because

39:04

I don't want that feared outcome

39:06

to occur. And I came up with the

39:08

idea of actually studying this when I

39:10

was watching the Emma Stone Michael Keaton

39:13

exchange and Birdman movie, where she very

39:15

harshly says, dad, you know what, your

39:17

biggest problem is? You're afraid that you

39:19

don't matter. And then she says. And

39:21

you know why? Because you don't matter. So

39:23

she got him on the anti-mattering and

39:26

the fear of not mattering. And

39:28

this is not as prevalent a

39:30

feeling, but it certainly is relevant

39:33

to certain age periods in one's

39:35

life or transitions. And the whole

39:37

side of mattering that's not been

39:39

studied, with exception of maybe four

39:42

studies, is the loss of

39:44

mattering, where you were somebody who

39:46

felt significant and then something happened

39:48

where you'd now feel. insignificant

39:51

and then you can dread the

39:53

dreaded anticipation of something like

39:55

that happening which tends to

39:57

tap into other insecurities. Well,

40:00

when you think about what you've

40:02

just described, there are various points

40:04

in your life where that could

40:06

happen. One could be you're coming

40:08

out of a long-term relationship or

40:10

a marriage. Could be one aspect of

40:13

it. Another one that I topic

40:15

typically see people who come to me

40:17

who have had a long career

40:19

and now they're either retiring, maybe

40:21

from the military, maybe from what they're

40:23

wanting to do, and their whole

40:25

sense of identity is shaken to its

40:28

core. and they don't feel like

40:30

anything they're doing matters. I've seen

40:32

this happen that happened to me when

40:34

you get well into your career

40:36

only realizing that what you're doing is

40:38

not what lights you up inside

40:41

and never was and you're searching

40:43

for your identity again. So I think

40:45

there are many different circumstances that

40:47

in our lives that we hit peaks

40:49

and valleys where we feel like

40:51

we matter. and other times trust

40:53

where we've lost it completely. Yeah, and

40:56

the feeling transition in terms of

40:58

the feeling really gets at people. In

41:00

my case, I spent three and

41:02

a half years as associate dean

41:04

in our faculty of health, and I

41:06

remember the feeling, it's okay, you're

41:08

literally a big man on campus,

41:10

and then the next day when it's

41:13

all over. You're not. That's okay.

41:15

Now I'm back into the rank civilian

41:17

life is one of my colleagues

41:19

described it. And we really hit

41:21

home when I said that parking spot

41:23

that I had right by our

41:25

building, am I going to be allowed

41:28

to keep that? No, you're not

41:30

allowed to keep that. And then

41:32

I said, how about can I go

41:34

on the waiting list? No, it's

41:36

too long. So it's like. status one

41:38

day not status the next but

41:40

we could be doing a great

41:42

service to people if we start to

41:45

put ourselves in the shoes of

41:47

all these individuals and think what kind

41:49

of things can we set up

41:51

so that they can retain a

41:53

sense of significance where they can make

41:55

a difference in other people's lives

41:57

so that it's not what they were

42:00

doing but they still have something

42:02

where they can see a valued

42:04

role because it's far some people simply

42:06

just can't handle it and I

42:08

think there's even in retirement there's the

42:11

stories of people who don't last

42:13

very long after they've got the

42:15

coveted retirement because they just don't feel

42:17

a sense of being valued and

42:19

anymore it's too much of a transition

42:21

for them but we don't tend

42:23

to do this we don't try

42:25

to there's a lot of things going

42:28

on in the world so we

42:30

don't think of what opportunities would create

42:32

for people as they are making

42:34

these transitions transitions that can be

42:36

incredibly difficult for them. Absolutely. Gordon, I

42:38

wanted to go into a couple

42:40

different areas. One of them is

42:42

going to start with workplace and then

42:45

we're going to go to schools

42:47

after it. So I want to start

42:49

with the early experiences that you

42:51

had visiting your grandmother's workplace because

42:53

they had a significant impact on you.

42:55

And I wanted you to use

42:57

the experiences of visiting her workplace to

43:00

how the workplace has evolved today.

43:02

I could answer the first part

43:04

of that easier, but my paternal grandmother

43:06

and my other grandmother worked at

43:08

a cafeteria that my one grandmother ran.

43:10

So my sister, and I'm talking

43:12

maybe six years old, five years

43:14

old, and my sister is a year

43:17

younger, we would go to visit

43:19

the grandmothers and get a special lunch

43:21

and have all this attention, plus

43:23

whatever we wanted, which for me,

43:25

usually some mac and cheese and some

43:28

chocolate milk. But I'm concerned about.

43:30

this in general. We know that mattering

43:32

is associated with workplace satisfaction and

43:34

I've talked about the mental health

43:36

but the anti-mattering also occurs at work

43:38

and I think we've lost a

43:40

sense of what it means to be

43:43

a person who's experiencing job transition

43:45

so when people who have been

43:47

in a valued role for years suddenly

43:49

get an email that tells them

43:51

sorry but your performance isn't up to

43:53

speed and period. pick up your

43:55

stuff and you're gone. And I

43:57

do know that there are people now

44:00

working on an anti-mattering work. version

44:02

to show that this sense of being

44:04

unimportant and insignificant in the workplace

44:06

is also very potent above and

44:08

beyond general feelings of mattering or

44:10

not mattering. And what I would tell

44:13

leaders is that you need to

44:15

focus on the human costs effective

44:17

impressive leaders already have figured this

44:19

out. So it's part of their

44:21

leadership orientation where they feel

44:23

that everybody counts, everybody matters and that

44:26

everybody has a role to play versus

44:28

the type of person who might go

44:30

to the favorite, the prestige employees and

44:32

not give others a chance to have

44:35

input into decisions or a sense of

44:37

voice. And you know, workplace mattering

44:39

is something that has got very

44:42

limited attention. There's a separate scale.

44:44

The measures mattering in the workplace

44:46

that's only been used in a

44:49

handful of studies, but it's absolutely

44:51

critical. And that's something that I saw

44:53

in our local school in terms of

44:56

the educators all feel like they

44:58

mattered and everybody feeling like they

45:00

mattered. And it is tied into that

45:02

sense of demoralization and burnout that I

45:04

was referring to. And people like Freud

45:07

said love and work were the two

45:09

key domains. Well, if you feel that

45:11

your work is something that's draining you

45:13

in terms of you're not getting

45:15

any sort of validation or

45:17

sense of being valued in

45:19

that workplace, it's going to

45:21

be reflected in illness, turnover,

45:23

absenteeism. presentism where you're

45:26

there but you're not really there

45:28

psychologically. Bottom line is that when

45:30

people in a work setting or

45:33

another setting feel like they matter,

45:35

they're much more engaged in a

45:37

day-to-day way and then a

45:39

problem solving proactive mode versus

45:42

being disengaged and disillusioned and

45:44

demoralized if you feel like

45:46

you don't matter in a work

45:48

setting. And the leaders who have already

45:51

figured this out, they... got

45:53

where they got for a

45:55

reason because they are realizing

45:57

the human side of everything.

45:59

Yeah. When I talk about this, I

46:01

talk about my experience when I was

46:04

at Lowe's Home Improvement. I had this

46:06

friend of mine named Steve who was

46:08

over all the distribution components of the

46:10

company. So when you think about this

46:13

is about 30,000 employees, so it's a

46:15

big job. And we would go into

46:17

these distribution centers themselves that are

46:19

about a million and a half

46:22

square foot. So there are these

46:24

huge facilities. And at the time, we

46:26

had a number of them. And I remember.

46:28

We would walk into these

46:30

facilities and they had

46:32

hundreds of employees and Steve

46:35

would walk around and he would

46:37

know every, not only every person's

46:40

name, he would understand who

46:42

their family members were, what

46:44

their passion for. It was

46:46

amazing and he was almost

46:48

like a rock star. People

46:50

just flocked to him because

46:53

he made them feel seen. And then

46:55

I had this boss who was

46:57

hired. I remember for the first

46:59

two weeks that she was there at

47:01

the new job, she'd come into work,

47:04

go into her office, lock the door,

47:06

and the only time she would come

47:08

out would be if she had a

47:10

meeting or needed to go to

47:12

the bathroom or something like that.

47:14

And I remember when I finally

47:17

got a chance to talk to

47:19

her, I had major components of

47:21

her job before, so I knew

47:23

all the employees who were literally

47:25

just sitting right outside her

47:27

office, thousands of them. And I went

47:29

up to her and I said, would you

47:31

like me to take you around so I

47:34

can introduce you to the directors and

47:36

managers and other people who are

47:38

part of the group? And she goes,

47:40

you don't understand. She goes, that's

47:42

your job. I don't have any

47:44

desire at all to meet them. My job

47:46

is to manage you to manage my

47:48

peers and to manage the

47:50

relationships with my superiors. And I

47:53

just look at this two people were

47:55

at the exact same level. They were

47:57

both SVPs and I look at how

47:59

different. they approached their jobs and

48:01

how people underneath them performed

48:04

for each of those people because one

48:06

treated them like they were family,

48:08

the other treated them like they were a

48:10

cog in a system. Yeah, and people

48:13

are very attentive to that and could

48:15

be even worse if they treated a

48:17

few people like they were key and

48:19

the rest of that they weren't. I'll

48:21

tell you a quick story about this.

48:23

My brother decided to get involved in

48:25

photography, my youngest brother. and he happened

48:28

to be at a photo shoot with

48:30

President Bill Clinton there in Hamilton, Ontario.

48:32

And Bill Clinton is somebody who figured

48:34

this out a long time ago in

48:37

terms of his charisma. A lot of

48:39

his charisma is making everybody feel like

48:41

you're the only person I'm talking to in

48:43

this room and being sincere about it. It

48:45

has to be authentic too. It has to

48:47

really matter. So at the end of this

48:49

photo shoot, my brother's in the corner and

48:51

he's others. Bill Clinton in Secret Service and

48:54

he's just the assistant to the photographer for

48:56

his doing the main shoot. President Clinton

48:58

went over to my brother when he

49:00

didn't have to when he was already

49:02

probably behind schedule and said, young man,

49:04

tell me a bit about you, you've been

49:06

here, I want to find out what's happening

49:08

with you. And he spent time with him,

49:10

which the glow that my brother had would

49:12

have probably lasted the next couple of years

49:14

because of that. The same thing with,

49:16

there's a big element of mattering in

49:19

sports and performance and the really successful

49:21

coaches are not just the strategists and

49:23

the taskmasters, but also the ones who

49:25

make their players. feel like they matter

49:27

as people. And I got a read on this

49:29

when I went through the book that

49:31

was written by Jerry Kramer who became

49:34

Hall of Fame lineman from the Green

49:36

Bay Packers who talked about Vince Lombardi

49:38

behind the scenes and the diary that

49:40

he kept for a year. It's great

49:43

reading for anybody into sports. And he

49:45

talks about how Lombardi humiliated him because

49:47

he was the blind side tackle and

49:49

he once as a rookie missed the

49:51

block and Bart's star the famous quarterback

49:54

almost got. massacred by

49:56

the blindside hit and Lombardi

49:58

showed that tape 32 times

50:01

or something like this in the

50:03

film session the next Monday with

50:05

Kramer right at the front feeling

50:07

totally humiliated and he's thinking I'm

50:09

gonna get my pink slip I'm

50:11

gonna get cut from this team

50:13

so he's sitting there actually thinking

50:15

should I clear up my locker

50:17

as everybody's left and suddenly an

50:19

arm comes around him and it's

50:21

Vince Lombardi and he's saying I

50:23

was pretty rough on you I

50:25

want to tell you why he

50:27

goes I was rough on you

50:29

because I know you have greatness

50:31

in you and I want to

50:33

make sure that never happens again

50:35

because you're going to develop and

50:37

you're going to and that was

50:39

like he realized what he was

50:41

doing it was not just being

50:43

artless he had a bow in

50:45

mind and with those kind of

50:47

coaches you might hate him one

50:49

moment but you'll go through a

50:51

wall for them or a frozen

50:53

tundra field on your way to

50:55

the first Super Bowl wins and

50:57

the coaches who don't figure this

50:59

out are the ones who don't

51:01

last very long. that they've got

51:03

to connect. And Ted Lasso, of

51:06

course, fictional example, is the example.

51:08

There's a famous clip where he

51:10

talks about mattering. It's got millions

51:12

of views online. And at the

51:14

end of the day, everybody in

51:16

a role needs to know that

51:18

the person in charge cares about

51:20

them. Even just a little bit.

51:22

It was an incredible long way

51:24

where you make sure to say

51:26

hi and make eye contact rather

51:28

than just ghosting by. And people

51:30

realize that people realize that people

51:32

are very busy. they realize, hey,

51:34

I'm important enough, they gave me

51:36

some of their valuable time, but

51:38

so many leaders don't figure it

51:40

out and I talk about human

51:42

costs, but if somebody added up

51:44

the financial cost, you know, people

51:46

not being as productive as they

51:48

could or being ill, it pays

51:50

for itself, but I think it

51:52

mostly pays in terms of the

51:54

people themselves in terms of how

51:56

they feel as a result of

51:58

their interactions, and I feel sorry

52:00

for that that lady is like

52:02

she cut herself off from rewarding

52:04

interactions and more in. enjoyable workday

52:06

by not getting talking to some

52:08

of the people and probably also

52:11

not learning some of the things

52:13

that would then enable her to

52:15

make important decisions down the road.

52:17

I won't pick on her too

52:19

much though, I don't even know.

52:21

No, I think that's one of

52:23

the things that many leaders fail

52:25

to do is to treat people

52:27

regardless of where they are in

52:29

the organization at an equal level

52:31

because some of the most mind

52:33

blowing discoveries I made was by

52:35

talking to all the employees because

52:37

Sometimes they have the best ideas

52:39

possible to fix things, but they're

52:41

never given the chance to have

52:43

a voice in into strategy and

52:45

ways to overhaul things. So you're

52:47

doing yourself a huge disservice by

52:49

not including people in the discussion.

52:51

Yeah, and I always think of

52:53

my favorite fictional detective Bosch with

52:55

Michael Connolly. Everybody counts or nobody

52:57

counts. And everybody in an organization

52:59

is important. because they're going to

53:01

be in an opportunity to do

53:03

whatever or whoever. And as you

53:05

say, sometimes the greatest ideas come

53:07

from having many minds focused on

53:09

the same thing and many voices

53:11

talking about it. So I now

53:13

want to switch the topic to

53:16

kids. So as I have been

53:18

writing my own book on this

53:20

and trying to figure out what

53:22

is going on and who is

53:24

suffering the most when mattering is

53:26

lost, what I keep... finding is

53:28

this is what has already happened

53:30

to generation Z and it's what

53:32

is already occurring to Gen Alpha

53:34

right now as we speak. And

53:36

there seems to be a couple

53:38

different dimensions of it. You talked

53:40

about the school that your kids

53:42

or grandkids were in earlier as

53:44

a great example of a school

53:46

where mattering is present, but I

53:48

feel in the vast majority of

53:50

schools matter is absent or severely

53:52

lacking. And then on top of

53:54

that as the work of Gen.

53:56

for Wallace showed, you then have

53:58

this erosion of the family system

54:00

as well, where the person who

54:02

shows a child that they matter

54:04

the most is the parent. And

54:06

if the parent themselves don't feel

54:08

like they matter, it starts having

54:10

this ripple effect. So they're not

54:12

feeling it at school. They're not

54:14

feeling it at home. They're probably

54:16

not feeling it from their friends.

54:18

And so you've got this recipe

54:21

where. this is something that's now

54:23

being taught from their earliest ages.

54:25

Am I thinking about this in

54:27

the right way? Yes, for sure.

54:29

Well, you think about everything in

54:31

the right way as far as

54:33

I'm concerned because that sense of

54:35

looking at all those domains is

54:37

critical. And I found there are

54:39

schools and there are some school

54:41

boards here are now trying to

54:43

put a focus on mattering, but

54:45

it's the exception rather than the

54:47

rule. And for those kids who

54:49

don't feel like they matter in

54:51

a community. if they matter at

54:53

school, then they can no longer

54:55

say I don't matter anywhere, and

54:57

they can get out of that

54:59

type of thinking. And one of

55:01

the concerns, of course, with the

55:03

generation that we're dealing with now

55:05

is social media addiction. And if

55:07

you feel like you don't have

55:09

that sense of mattering in your

55:11

day-to-day, whether it's at school, family,

55:13

relationships, and you can turn to

55:15

the internet and social media to

55:17

try and get that sense of

55:19

mattering. And there is some initial

55:21

research. feeling of not mattering and

55:24

the unmet need to matter with

55:26

social media addiction and that sets

55:28

you up I think for maybe

55:30

more contact with people but not

55:32

the kind of quality relationships that

55:34

provide that key unique sense of

55:36

self-worth. My thing about schools is

55:38

that it would be very easy

55:40

for schools to implement something that

55:42

would enhance the sense of mattering

55:44

of everyone at the school if

55:46

there's no focus on it. and

55:48

that doesn't take a lot of

55:50

time or energy. I did come

55:52

across one school in our resilience

55:54

project that was supposed to be

55:56

in a comparison group and I

55:58

looked at the scores and. students

56:00

in the school had much better

56:02

adjustment and much a bigger sense

56:04

of mattering so I asked

56:06

the school board educators I said what's

56:08

up with this school because this shouldn't

56:11

even be a control school there whatever

56:13

they're doing people need to do

56:15

more of it and they said that

56:17

well on Mondays the school wide theme

56:20

is mental health Mondays and

56:22

Fridays it's physical Fridays for the

56:24

physical well-being. So that sort of

56:26

initiative where it's coming from the

56:29

top of the school and then

56:31

comes in various ways as part of

56:33

how the week unfolds and sends the

56:35

message right at the start that hey

56:37

we realize that you need to matter

56:39

and you matter to us to the

56:42

point where we've structured this and made

56:44

it a focus and try to show

56:46

how you let your fellow students know

56:48

that they matter so you can develop

56:50

more peer relationships. But I do think

56:53

that the mental health issues of young people

56:55

today, whether it's anxiety,

56:57

depression, loneliness, suicidality, mattering,

57:00

and the feeling of not mattering has

57:02

a very strong role to play. It's

57:04

not the only thing, of course, but

57:06

for many, it's at the core element

57:08

of this, and when they feel that

57:11

they don't matter, then there's little

57:13

reason to become engaged in learning. So

57:15

this is what I was telling

57:17

our educators is that the

57:19

ultimate goal for them was

57:21

to increase learning outcomes and

57:24

to decrease. problem behavior that

57:26

was really problematic in several

57:28

schools. And I said people need that

57:30

sense of a future and a sense

57:32

of worth and that will carry over

57:34

in terms of learning and it

57:36

will carry over in terms of

57:39

behavior so that People are going to

57:41

benefit, young people benefit in multiple ways. It

57:43

can create a culture. So if you can

57:45

foster an environment where it's a cross, where

57:48

it's a workplace or a school or whatever,

57:50

where that is a very salient thing and

57:52

people do big things or small things to

57:54

promote the sense of mattering among the

57:56

people they interact with, it can have

57:59

an enormous benefit. and seeing it. So

58:01

I actually found with the school behind

58:03

us and the principal who we renewed

58:06

acquaintances with on Friday that I found

58:08

the initial documents where they went and

58:10

selected staff that had this kind of

58:12

orientation to kind of people orientation so

58:14

that it was a brand new school

58:17

at the time and it was something

58:19

that was built in, baked in terms of

58:21

picking people who could carry this message

58:23

and this way of interacting with

58:25

people. A follow-on question of that

58:28

is I think whether it's

58:30

kids. or adults. Many people

58:32

struggle to see how their actions

58:34

actually affect others. Do you

58:36

have any insights from your

58:38

research on why recognizing our

58:41

impact on others is so

58:43

crucial to feeling like you matter?

58:45

Don't have any research per se

58:48

except to turn back to

58:50

that work on doing for

58:52

others in terms of volunteering.

58:54

or mentoring and how there's a literature

58:56

on this. Now usually these papers

58:58

on volunteering or mentoring don't mention

59:00

mattering as key ingredients in terms

59:02

of those interactions, but they say,

59:04

well, there's a benefit to this

59:07

and benefit to that. And what

59:09

is it about that? And what

59:11

is it about that? And it's

59:13

in terms of that relational side

59:15

of things where you can see somebody's

59:17

facelide up when they learn something

59:20

that they weren't able to learn

59:22

and that transformation. anymore. But generally

59:25

speaking, like I said, I do

59:27

believe there's even examples in terms

59:29

of that making a difference in

59:31

other people's lives. There's case examples

59:34

of people with severe forms of

59:36

mental illness and then they were given

59:38

a role within a setting or helping

59:40

a fall patient or that where they

59:42

suddenly realized, hey, I can do something

59:45

worthwhile for somebody else and I do

59:47

have this cause and it transforms them

59:49

and it's a key to their well-being. Just

59:51

one example of this is how people can

59:53

lose sight of this though for years. I

59:55

don't go to church often but my wife

59:58

did and the church where we are married

1:00:00

and minister who actually married us

1:00:02

ended up suffering from severe depression.

1:00:04

A fabulous guy. And he knew I

1:00:06

studied perfectionism and he had

1:00:08

perfectionism inclinations. So he asked

1:00:10

after two months off due

1:00:12

to depression and the whole

1:00:14

congregation knew that he was depressed. He

1:00:17

asked if I could drop by the mance,

1:00:19

the house where they live and just talk

1:00:21

to him. And on my way there I

1:00:23

got the feeling, this is before I was

1:00:25

really studying mattering the degree that I do now.

1:00:27

I said somewhere along the way, I

1:00:29

think he's lost the sense of just

1:00:32

how much he means to other people.

1:00:34

So as part of our

1:00:36

three-hour conversation, I said, I need

1:00:38

to remind you what you meet the

1:00:41

people, you know, to us, to our kids,

1:00:43

to the broader congregation. My

1:00:45

wife, when she had a

1:00:47

health incident that was almost

1:00:50

potentially fatal, he came to the

1:00:52

hospital and made sure that she

1:00:54

was doing okay. So... I don't know

1:00:56

if that was it, but I suspect that

1:00:58

it was because within 10 days he was

1:01:00

back at work and doing much much better.

1:01:03

And I said, but it also taught me a

1:01:05

lesson to like, how can people who do so

1:01:07

much for others lose sight of that? This is

1:01:09

where people judge themselves according to some

1:01:11

very difficult standards and lack of

1:01:13

self accepting. And I've actually been

1:01:15

to a few things that are

1:01:18

sad in a sense, but where

1:01:20

somebody far too young has passed

1:01:22

away. and you get there and there's three

1:01:24

or four hundred people and you're going

1:01:26

to this person realize just how much they meant

1:01:28

to all of these people. I had a grad

1:01:30

student who passed away tragically around the age

1:01:32

of 40 and when we got to the

1:01:35

funeral there was 500 people there because what

1:01:37

I learned was although he procrastinated on his

1:01:39

own work. He was a master tutor in

1:01:41

terms of statistics and he literally

1:01:43

went around the university helping out

1:01:45

any grad student he could find

1:01:48

or undergrad who was having problems

1:01:50

with statistics. And it's too bad that

1:01:52

people don't realize this. It's like Jimmy

1:01:54

Stewart and it's a wonderful life. He

1:01:56

didn't realize his impact until he was

1:01:59

shown what. it would be like if he

1:02:01

wasn't around anymore. I think people

1:02:03

need to get reminders. So this

1:02:05

is what I tell parents is just

1:02:07

don't assume that your kid knows that

1:02:10

he or she matters, show them, remind

1:02:12

them, talk about it, and realize that

1:02:14

you matter as part of it as

1:02:16

well, because parents also lose sight of

1:02:18

how much they matter, especially when I feel

1:02:21

like it's a thankless role at times.

1:02:23

But parents, one piece of advice I

1:02:25

give is for that. situation where the

1:02:28

teenager looks like they don't want any

1:02:30

input from the parent, give it a

1:02:32

try anyway. And then you can say, well,

1:02:34

directly, you can say, hey, I just want

1:02:36

you to know, even though you don't seem

1:02:38

to want to talk to me that I'm

1:02:40

interested in finding out what's going on

1:02:42

with you, because they will remember that

1:02:45

they might not acknowledge it, but they'll

1:02:47

know that somebody actually cared

1:02:49

about them and their parents trying

1:02:51

to show an interest. Thank you

1:02:53

for sharing that. One of them

1:02:55

is the fact that mattering is

1:02:57

malleable, that we can actively increase

1:02:59

our sense of significance. And

1:03:01

I was hoping you might give some

1:03:04

practical strategies or maybe habits any

1:03:06

of the listeners could do to enhance

1:03:08

their own sense of mattering. Well,

1:03:10

we can't forget as well the

1:03:12

mattering to yourself part of it

1:03:15

and people remind themselves of what they

1:03:17

have done if they don't feel that way in

1:03:19

the current situation, what they've

1:03:21

done in the past. But I think the

1:03:23

outreach to other people can be through small

1:03:25

ways. Just checking in on somebody is one

1:03:28

way to get their sense of mattering

1:03:30

up and then you will feel that you

1:03:32

matter as well in terms of the reaction.

1:03:35

The principal I referred to at the

1:03:37

school was the master of the lost

1:03:39

art of writing somebody a personal note.

1:03:41

But you can also write a note

1:03:43

to yourself in terms of reminding yourself

1:03:45

about things that you've done that people

1:03:48

seem to have appreciated and things that

1:03:50

you could do. if you're not having

1:03:52

a chance at the current time. Really

1:03:54

a key thing though is spending time

1:03:57

with people. My one brother said one

1:03:59

time. I mean, he never went beyond

1:04:01

high school, but he said to me, one

1:04:03

of the lisest things I've ever heard, he

1:04:05

says, your time is limited. So if you

1:04:07

give your time to somebody, that's the most

1:04:10

precious gift of all. So spending time with

1:04:12

someone shows that you want to be with

1:04:14

them, that you're valuing them in a

1:04:16

way, and unfortunately in the busy world

1:04:19

that we have too many situations where

1:04:21

people are left to themselves and they

1:04:23

don't get that interaction. Even just

1:04:25

saying to somebody I've been thinking of you

1:04:27

means that hey of all the things that

1:04:29

are there to distract you and all the

1:04:32

social media that you were the person on

1:04:34

their mind not to the point of stalking

1:04:36

or something like that. But on the flip side

1:04:38

of course as the anti matter you

1:04:40

want to make sure that you're not

1:04:42

doing the things that will make people

1:04:44

feel less than to feel devalued or

1:04:46

unvalued. So for instance. Try not to

1:04:48

spend time looking at your cell phone

1:04:50

when you're interacting with somebody. Try to

1:04:53

have some eye-to-eye contact and put the

1:04:55

phone away. That's called fubbing, pH-U-B-I-N-G, in

1:04:57

case people thought I said something differently.

1:05:00

And don't add to that sense, okay,

1:05:02

they don't see me, they're not really

1:05:04

paying attention, they're not listening to me.

1:05:07

because that can be just as destructive

1:05:09

as all of the positive things that

1:05:11

I've said. And the work by the

1:05:13

Gottmans on marital interactions showed that if

1:05:16

you had a very difficult something with

1:05:18

a partner, like somebody harshly criticized

1:05:20

you, it's going to take about

1:05:22

seven or so positive exchanges to

1:05:24

make up for that one negative

1:05:26

exchange. So in addition to doing

1:05:28

the positive things, make sure to

1:05:31

try and limit the negative that

1:05:33

will be destructive and give that

1:05:35

sense of. fears and feelings of

1:05:37

not mattering. So it can

1:05:39

go both ways. Another one I

1:05:41

wanted to make sure I got in

1:05:43

here is if our society as a

1:05:45

whole, given all the issues

1:05:47

of dehumanization, conflict, everything else

1:05:50

that we have going on,

1:05:52

part of time, mattering more

1:05:54

explicitly, what changes do you

1:05:56

envision we would see in

1:05:59

our communities? workplaces and

1:06:01

our overall mental health massive

1:06:03

changes that the potential is there in

1:06:05

terms of especially we talk about the

1:06:07

divisions that are amongst people right now

1:06:09

what I tell people is people have

1:06:12

more in common than they don't and something

1:06:14

that ties someone together

1:06:16

is that everybody has that shared need

1:06:18

to matter and that's important to realize

1:06:20

that even when people have fallen by the

1:06:22

wayside or done things that are horrible

1:06:24

even people think about it this way if

1:06:27

somebody's engaged in criminality at some level

1:06:29

they still have a need to matter

1:06:31

too and unfortunately they didn't have people

1:06:33

in their lives who positively exchanged

1:06:35

with them in a way that satisfied

1:06:37

that need so maybe I can

1:06:39

matter by joining this gang who gives

1:06:42

me the attention so the search

1:06:44

for significance through maladaptive inappropriate ways but

1:06:46

if we dedicate ourselves to this

1:06:48

in organizations and in communities it could

1:06:50

transform everything and we've got a

1:06:52

federal election just starting here in Canada

1:06:55

and the ad that's running with

1:06:57

our short -term Prime Minister Mark Carney talks

1:07:00

about we care about people

1:07:02

just that sense of people knowing

1:07:04

that people generally do care and it's

1:07:06

authentic it can go a long

1:07:08

way but when we have situations where

1:07:10

maybe as every second young person

1:07:12

says I don't matter in my

1:07:14

community we can say what can we do in

1:07:16

the community to make a difference and I

1:07:18

just very quickly tell you a story

1:07:20

I know we're going along here but

1:07:22

they once went to Maine to a

1:07:24

town call I think Macaius and Macius

1:07:27

and has the most famous blueberry pie

1:07:29

in the United States my wife said

1:07:31

hold off to you get across the

1:07:33

border because you're gonna get some of

1:07:35

the blueberry pie and unbelievably the night

1:07:37

before we went to this in where

1:07:39

there's the restaurant with the award -winning pie

1:07:41

when the national award the restaurant burned

1:07:43

to the ground oh my

1:07:46

god and I said oh my god

1:07:48

there goes the pie but these young

1:07:50

people who just took over the place

1:07:52

they lost their place where does mattering

1:07:54

in the community come in they told

1:07:56

us when we got there that

1:07:58

their town was very now concerned about all

1:08:00

the students who had summer jobs at

1:08:02

that place. So the town was getting

1:08:04

together the following Tuesday to say, what

1:08:06

jobs can we come up with? What

1:08:08

opportunities can we come up with? We can

1:08:11

help these young people who now have

1:08:13

lost their employment as a result of

1:08:15

this burning down. I said, I would

1:08:17

want to live in that community. Who

1:08:19

would want to live in that community?

1:08:21

Where people are looking out for each

1:08:23

other and deciding that they're race, whatever,

1:08:25

sexual orientation and realize that

1:08:27

everybody has this core sense

1:08:29

of need to matter and

1:08:31

we can do a better

1:08:33

job at making everyone realize that

1:08:36

they do indeed matter. Yeah, we

1:08:38

had something similar to that happened

1:08:40

to us about six months ago.

1:08:42

We got impacted by Hurricane Helene

1:08:44

and had about three feet of

1:08:46

water in our house and we

1:08:48

had a dozen or more friends

1:08:50

who ended up showing up for

1:08:52

us some pulling up carpet and

1:08:54

helping us get the water out of

1:08:57

the house and others bringing food and

1:08:59

others packing up things for us. And

1:09:01

I'll tell you, it's when people show

1:09:03

up like they did that you feel

1:09:06

that sense of mattering in the most

1:09:08

profound way. When you need it the most,

1:09:10

and that's a key thing about

1:09:12

reciprocity that I should have said is

1:09:14

that it involves a responsiveness to

1:09:16

someone's needs. When they send out

1:09:19

a signal or you can figure

1:09:21

out that they need something. whether it's

1:09:23

the help of neighbors or whatever. Responding

1:09:26

to that is a key time because then they

1:09:28

say, hey, this person is tuned into

1:09:30

me and what I need and was

1:09:32

sensitive that I needed it. On the other

1:09:34

hand, if the signal's there, that

1:09:36

signals up and you don't respond,

1:09:38

that also then adds that sense of hey,

1:09:41

I'm alone here, I don't have that

1:09:43

sense of connection. And that's the key

1:09:45

as the response of this when somebody

1:09:48

clearly needs it. Great neighbors. We want

1:09:50

to stay there as long as you can.

1:09:52

Gordon, you've been studying mattering now

1:09:54

for decades. What has surprised you

1:09:57

most or challenged your assumptions about

1:09:59

how people... build mattering in their

1:10:01

lives? I think it's when people don't

1:10:04

realize that they matter as we were

1:10:06

talking about earlier, but also just how

1:10:08

I like to change that around a

1:10:10

little and say that people who've told

1:10:13

me like Jennifer Wallace, for instance, have

1:10:15

told me that knowing about this concept

1:10:18

has changed how they interact with people.

1:10:20

The research really hasn't picked up on

1:10:22

that yet in terms of how people

1:10:25

have had their lives changed as a

1:10:27

result of being attuned now. more to

1:10:29

the relational side of things as opposed

1:10:31

to the achievement. One thing that I

1:10:33

learned and this goes back and praised

1:10:36

to my colleague Paul Hewitt and our

1:10:38

work on perfectionism over the years is

1:10:40

that he said all along in therapy

1:10:42

that perfectionists are driven by unmet interpersonal

1:10:45

needs and the achievements driving that successive

1:10:47

that will end up maybe creating

1:10:49

major health problems for them is

1:10:51

driven by unmet needs. So. Indeed, one

1:10:53

of the unmet needs is the need to matter

1:10:55

and we need to get a better appreciation

1:10:58

of how achievement and interpersonal

1:11:00

are actually connected through the

1:11:02

needs that are largely interpersonal and

1:11:04

there's now five or six studies

1:11:06

showing that perfectionists of different age

1:11:09

levels are ones that feel unmet need

1:11:11

to matter and it's like they striving

1:11:13

is okay if I do something spectacular

1:11:15

if I'm famous then people will give

1:11:17

me the love respect attention in the sense

1:11:19

of being cared about that I've been lacking

1:11:21

all this time. Yeah,

1:11:25

and unfortunately they'll reach that point

1:11:27

and realize lie they've been told

1:11:29

is going to hit them in

1:11:31

the face. Yes. Yeah. Where is people

1:11:33

offering the ones that actually attain

1:11:36

perfection and find out that it didn't

1:11:38

really matter to certain people that they

1:11:40

really cared about? Yeah, and I just

1:11:42

had a really good conversation with

1:11:44

Lori Santos about this. She was

1:11:46

put into this position like the

1:11:48

one you were describing where she

1:11:50

got picked. to live on campus in

1:11:53

this big house, and she was

1:11:55

in the middle of all the

1:11:57

students, became the den mom at

1:11:59

the time. and realized just

1:12:01

how many of them were suffering

1:12:04

from perfectionism, from over

1:12:06

achievement, from feeling less

1:12:08

than, and that's why she

1:12:11

created the whole course that

1:12:13

became Yale's most attended

1:12:15

course in history, off the

1:12:17

back of matter, really, or seeing the

1:12:19

phenomenon of anti-mattering.

1:12:22

Feeling like an imposter, feeling unseen

1:12:24

and not. wanting to share anything about

1:12:26

themselves. A lot of the other thing

1:12:29

that I've talked about in this new

1:12:31

book on kids is that the front

1:12:33

that people put on where they let

1:12:35

on that everything's okay. And this is

1:12:37

especially the case when people feel like they

1:12:39

don't matter because there's a sense of

1:12:41

shame about it. Maybe it's something about

1:12:43

me as the reason why I don't

1:12:45

matter. That's the sort of time talk

1:12:47

to oneself that people have to stop

1:12:50

doing. No, it could just be you're in the

1:12:52

wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong

1:12:54

people or you haven't had a chance. You need

1:12:56

an opportunity to show that you matter. I learned very

1:12:58

early on with students and was a

1:13:00

champion of student mental health that they

1:13:02

may look like they're doing okay and

1:13:04

they're exceptionally talented and all kinds of

1:13:06

potential but dealing with things and that's

1:13:08

where I came up with the idea

1:13:10

of individualization that you talk about students

1:13:12

but students are different each has their

1:13:14

own unique history unique set of experiences

1:13:17

and what might be how somebody got that

1:13:19

way is totally different for someone else and

1:13:21

taking the time to hear somebody's story. And

1:13:23

to be responsive is one of

1:13:25

that keys of billing, that sense

1:13:28

of individual connection with somebody and

1:13:30

realize that things are much more

1:13:32

complicated than they seem on the surface

1:13:34

at times. Absolutely. Gordon, can you just

1:13:36

for the listeners, you had a previous

1:13:38

book, The Psychology of Matter, and can

1:13:40

you talk about that just for to

1:13:43

tell them more about it, and then

1:13:45

maybe just introduce this new book that's

1:13:47

coming out? I appreciate it. Psychology and

1:13:49

Mattering book was in 2018, and it

1:13:51

was the first full scale. book on

1:13:54

this particular topic. I think I

1:13:56

have behind me this is it here

1:13:58

and you notice the hands came

1:14:00

up brilliant I thought with the book

1:14:02

cover and this talked about mattering in

1:14:04

terms of introducing it but also mattering

1:14:07

in terms of it's linked with mental health

1:14:09

you can feel like you don't matter

1:14:11

because you're not getting the services that you

1:14:13

need when you're seeking help but also matter

1:14:15

at school matter in the workplace and so

1:14:18

on and the new book this one here

1:14:20

just published by the American Psychological Association this

1:14:22

is the full scale look at what is

1:14:24

it like to be a kid growing up

1:14:26

in today's world without a sense of

1:14:29

mattering. There's a top 10

1:14:31

list for instance of 10 indicators

1:14:33

of kids feeling like they don't

1:14:35

matter. Also I talk about links

1:14:37

with depression, anxiety, social media, physical

1:14:40

violence issues as well. So full

1:14:42

scale look and one of the

1:14:44

key points that I could say

1:14:46

about both books is that 10

1:14:48

years ago, there wouldn't be enough

1:14:50

to write these books. I struggled

1:14:52

at first with the first book

1:14:54

published in 2018, just to pull

1:14:57

everything together because the literature wasn't

1:14:59

as luminous as it is now.

1:15:01

Now there's plenty enough and books

1:15:03

on the way, and I've been

1:15:05

asked to write a follow-up volume

1:15:07

to the first book, addition to

1:15:09

plus one on perhaps on the

1:15:11

workplace. But... What I'm pleased to see is

1:15:13

that it's something that is a topic

1:15:15

that resonates with the public. So it's

1:15:17

not something that sits on a shelf and

1:15:20

doesn't get put into action. And

1:15:22

there's big ways and little ways

1:15:24

that it can be injected into

1:15:26

settings and organizations to

1:15:28

really make people's lives much better. Gordon,

1:15:30

thank you so much for sharing that and

1:15:32

thank you so much for joining us today.

1:15:34

It was such an honor to have you.

1:15:36

Well, thanks John and maybe we can

1:15:38

have a follow-up sometime as I know

1:15:41

you're invested in mattering and also would

1:15:43

like more chance to learn from you

1:15:45

because I'm sure I would love that. Some stories

1:15:47

like the ones that you've shared that

1:15:50

I find when like-minded people passion if

1:15:52

you want to say passion struck get

1:15:54

together and one person will say something

1:15:56

and create a light bulb going off

1:15:58

and the other person. and then even

1:16:01

some shared initiatives. So thank you.

1:16:03

Absolutely. And that's a wrap. What an incredible

1:16:05

conversation with Dr. Gordon

1:16:07

Flood. His groundbreaking insights

1:16:09

into the psychology of mattering

1:16:12

have illuminated a profound truth.

1:16:14

Feeling significant isn't merely a nice

1:16:16

to have. It's essential for our

1:16:18

well-being, resilience, and overall happiness.

1:16:21

His research reminds us that mattering

1:16:23

goes far deeper than simply belonging

1:16:25

or being connected. It's about feeling

1:16:28

valued. Knowing we're needed. and believing

1:16:30

that our lives genuinely make a

1:16:32

difference. From uncovering the hidden cost

1:16:35

of un-mattering, like anxiety, depression, and

1:16:37

loneliness, to providing actionable strategies we

1:16:39

can use every day, Dr. Flett has shown

1:16:42

us a clear path toward living lives of

1:16:44

greater purpose and intention. As we close today's

1:16:46

episode, I invite you to reflect on a

1:16:48

few key takeaways. How can you actively communicate

1:16:51

to others in your life that they truly

1:16:53

matter? What practical steps can you

1:16:55

take to enhance your own sense

1:16:57

of significance? especially in areas where

1:16:59

you often feel overlooked or undervalued.

1:17:01

And how might embracing the reciprocal

1:17:04

nature of mattering deepen your relationships

1:17:06

and foster genuine connection? If today's

1:17:08

discussion resonated with you, please take

1:17:10

a moment to leave a five-star rating

1:17:12

and review. It's one of the best

1:17:14

ways to support Passion Struck and helps

1:17:17

these transformative insights reach even more people.

1:17:19

And if someone in your life could

1:17:21

benefit from Dr. Flutt's powerful research and

1:17:23

perspective, please share this episode with them.

1:17:25

because one conversation can ignite lasting change.

1:17:28

For all the resources and links

1:17:30

discussed today, including more of Dr.

1:17:32

Flutz's research on mattering, visit the

1:17:34

shownotes at Passionstruct.com. And if you want

1:17:37

to dive deeper, don't miss the video version

1:17:39

of this conversation on our YouTube channel titled

1:17:41

John R. Miles. And finally, if you'd like

1:17:43

to bring these life-changing insights directly to

1:17:45

your team, organization or event, visit

1:17:47

John R. Miles.com/speaking to learn how

1:17:50

we can work together to spark

1:17:52

intentional transformation and inspirean and inspire

1:17:54

our meaningful growth. Coming up

1:17:56

next, I'm joined by Isabel

1:17:59

and Laura. and we go into

1:18:01

their groundbreaking new book, Secrets of

1:18:03

the Ice Woman, and we discuss

1:18:06

the power of cold and breathwork

1:18:08

to balance hormones, bolster health, and

1:18:11

unlock inner potential. When my

1:18:13

mother died, it was one of

1:18:15

the most dramatic, impactful moments in

1:18:17

our lives as a family and

1:18:19

also my father, because it really

1:18:22

made him... want to go out

1:18:24

into the world and just do

1:18:26

things, right, act to almost soothe

1:18:28

this hurt that he was feeling.

1:18:31

It was a way for him

1:18:33

to escape, but then it became

1:18:35

a way of healing. But it

1:18:37

was also the reason that he

1:18:40

went into these extremes.

1:18:42

like sitting in a bucket for

1:18:44

two hours. Who does that? Well,

1:18:46

a person, maybe that is super

1:18:49

driven. It made my father driven

1:18:51

to the point that he went

1:18:53

into these extremes doing marathon bare

1:18:55

feet, climbing a mountain. even the

1:18:58

Mount Everest up until the death

1:19:00

zone, 7,800 meters. In shorts, this

1:19:02

practice that my father used to

1:19:04

heal himself, later on we also,

1:19:07

we love to practice for different

1:19:09

reasons. We see it as one

1:19:11

of the best modalities to regulate

1:19:13

yourself, to really come to a

1:19:16

center point of yourself where you

1:19:18

can go through life in a

1:19:20

balanced way. It healed him. But

1:19:22

then he brought it out into the

1:19:24

world. He has a purity of heart,

1:19:26

of mind, of being. That is my

1:19:29

fault. That's a child-like purity. And he

1:19:31

gave it to anybody who was willing

1:19:33

to listen, anybody who needed it. And

1:19:35

remember, the fee for the show is

1:19:37

simple. If you found value today,

1:19:39

share this episode with someone who

1:19:41

needs to hear it. Most importantly,

1:19:43

take what you've learned and put

1:19:46

it into action. Because knowledge alone

1:19:48

doesn't create change, action does. Until

1:19:50

next time, live life, passion struck.