0:00

So my second startup , harbor

0:02

. I officially started working about

0:04

two and a half years ago and we

0:06

are in month two of shipping

0:08

product to customers . So post

0:11

revenue which is a very nice shift spent

0:13

about two years getting the product ready to launch Very

0:16

, very complicated product to build A

0:19

great co-founder . We started the two

0:21

of us and we've built up the team . I

0:23

mean it was almost two years of behind

0:25

the scenes to get the product into customers' hands

0:27

. Just

0:33

yesterday we got awarded Times one

0:35

of their 2024 Best Inventions

0:37

Really exciting

0:39

recognition . We

0:42

got Wired and Forbes named us the

0:44

best baby monitor . So really good . These

0:46

are independent external tests

0:48

. There's you know there's a lot of pay

0:51

to play in the world of media today , but

0:53

this is you send them the product

0:55

and then they'll tell you , maybe

0:58

when they've published their review and in many cases

1:00

they don't like . We just are surprised to learn that

1:02

it's up .

1:04

That's awesome .

1:05

Congratulations , thank you , thank you

1:07

. And then the first startup , mizzen and Main

1:09

. I started it a little over 12 years ago

1:11

and at this point in time we've done

1:13

hundreds of millions in revenue . We're

1:15

carried in about 1,000 points of retail distribution

1:17

across the country US almost

1:20

exclusively and then we have 11

1:22

of our own stores .

1:26

So you're basically saying you're used to operating at scale

1:28

?

1:29

Yes , I've got both sides . I

1:31

incorrectly assumed

1:33

that the second time would be a much

1:35

smoother path . But

1:38

importantly , I you know

1:40

the first time around every

1:42

single thing was brand new and I got punched in the face repeatedly

1:44

. You know , the first time around every single thing was brand new and I got punched in the face repeatedly . You know from

1:47

everything that can go wrong . It did , and

1:50

so this time , as I get punched in the face

1:52

, I'm still getting punched , but it's just much

1:54

less surprising and I think I'm able to

1:57

sort of like I'm able to see where

1:59

we're going and know that I can get there

2:01

, and so I guess in that

2:03

case it's a little easier . You're're still getting punched

2:05

, you're just used to it .

2:06

The second time around I mean

2:08

just sort of go back to talking about pre-recording

2:10

, kind of supposed to , kind of having your second child . It's kind

2:12

of like you think you know what you're doing , you just get punched

2:14

in whole different ways exactly

2:17

exactly .

2:17

The second child is not easier , you're

2:19

just more used to it . Um

2:22

, and then when something totally new happens

2:24

to you , that idea of something

2:26

totally new and unexpected is less

2:28

surprising right , it's not like . I must

2:30

be doing something wrong , because it shouldn't be this hard

2:33

I'm like actually , that's just kind of how it goes .

2:35

I think often as a founder , you get so few people actually telling

2:37

you you're doing a good job . It

2:39

is actually quite nice to have someone external

2:41

go actually you're doing a good job . Quite

2:47

nice to have someone external go actually you're doing a good job . Yeah , truly , truly . Um . So what ? What

2:49

is ? What is the one thing that you would share with other founders ? Having had so

2:51

journey one and journey two , what

2:53

is something that is really

2:55

effective for you ?

2:57

I think the most important

3:00

thing is the people you surround

3:02

yourselves with . Surround yourself with and

3:10

I look at that as kind of threefold I'm trying not to cheat on the answer and have

3:12

three answers it is the people you surround yourself

3:14

with . When I started Mizzen and Main , it

3:16

was just my wife and I . We actually I

3:18

told her I was going to start Mizzen and Main on our honeymoon

3:21

. I had I had a good nine to five corporate job and then on my on our honeymoon , um , I had I had a good

3:23

nine to five corporate job and then on my , on our honeymoon

3:25

, I'm gonna go start this startup , um

3:27

, but my wife and now our

3:30

children . You know , when I started

3:32

the first company I didn't have kids and

3:34

I'm very grateful for that . Being a first-time founder

3:36

with kids would have been , I think , much , much

3:38

more difficult . Now

3:41

I really do believe to my core

3:43

that my kids and my wife it's

3:45

the most important part of my life

3:47

and so having

3:49

that grounding makes

3:51

the ups and the downs of the startup

3:54

and professional experience just

3:56

more manageable . It's

3:59

also hard to strike that balance , but

4:02

my wife and my kids that's kind of part one

4:04

and two and then the third . I've

4:07

been a part of the forum for eight years

4:09

now and there

4:11

are lots of professional networking groups eo

4:13

, ypo , hampton , in various

4:15

you know construction but

4:18

but the fundamental premise is six

4:20

to twelve people that are

4:22

on similar journeys to yourself

4:24

. And in YPO you have

4:27

to be of a certain size but you don't have to be the founder

4:29

. In EO you have to

4:31

be the founder and ultimately

4:33

, the group that we've been together for eight years

4:35

. Each of us started

4:37

our own business and

4:42

some of us have started other businesses since then sold businesses . Some

4:44

businesses have had to shut down marital

4:46

separations , kids have been born , kids

4:49

are going to college and that

4:52

professional peer group in

4:55

a structured capacity not friends

4:57

and they've become my best friends but

4:59

the structured peer group in a professional capacity has

5:02

been the most impactful thing on

5:04

my professional journey and

5:06

so we can unpack it . But it's hard to

5:09

find and there are lots of

5:11

professional peer groups that are fine

5:13

and I know friends who are in other forums like yeah , no

5:15

, it's helpful and this is the group that's

5:17

been the most important group of people in my life ever

5:19

and so grateful that . I've been able

5:22

to find that group and then

5:24

cultivate these relationships to be

5:26

so mutually beneficial over the

5:28

course of the last eight years .

5:30

Okay , let's dive into that . That

5:32

sounds like you've commissioned it for eight years . Over that pace

5:35

of time , you've grown a very set of business

5:37

. You've also now launched a second one

5:39

, which is clearly doing very well

5:41

as well . What is

5:43

it about this particular group that

5:47

makes it so successful ?

5:51

One of the guys in our group , kyle . I

5:53

think , if I had to put it so succinctly , it's

5:55

like there's very few people in my life that I

5:57

would ever really listen to and

5:59

be grateful that they told me I'm wrong

6:01

or I need to be thinking differently

6:03

. And it takes a long time to

6:06

build up a level of trust to where

6:08

you want to hear that from somebody genuinely

6:10

and that you will . You

6:12

know , it's nice to hear criticism that makes

6:14

you stronger , but it's another that makes

6:17

you rethink your motivations

6:20

and why you're making decisions that you're making and

6:22

the direction that you're going . And

6:24

so , fundamentally , it's

6:26

about a group that's not your family

6:28

, not your child or college

6:30

friends , not your colleagues , not

6:33

your business partners or investors . It's

6:36

something apart from all of that

6:38

, and a great forum helps you see the things that

6:40

you can't see in yourself . A great forum helps you see

6:42

the things that you can't see in yourself . Um

6:45

, and certainly we have

6:47

a lot of fun together . Um , we , we've

6:49

gone on trips and now our wives , like we've

6:51

, we've done a trip together with all of our spouses

6:54

. Um , our kids have gotten

6:56

together for events . Um , and

6:58

over an arc of a professional , you

7:01

know life , and over a life , um

7:03

, you get to see people mature and grow

7:05

and go through wins . We've

7:08

had guys in the chapter in

7:10

our forum sell their businesses , that we

7:12

saw them in the earliest of days and

7:15

in the hardest of moments . Some

7:17

of the folks they went through a process

7:19

to sell their business and it didn't go through , and that is

7:21

a devastating experience . And

7:23

then , not all that long after , they sell

7:25

in a better way than they had expected . Guys

7:28

that are somewhat

7:31

early retirement but decided

7:33

ultimately they had reached

7:35

the point in their business where they were ready to step

7:37

aside and begin a new chapter

7:40

in their professional career . But it's been

7:42

20 years building that business and so

7:44

celebrating those wins

7:46

, navigating losses , um

7:48

, both personal and professional , um

7:50

in building a sense of

7:53

camaraderie where , like it's

7:55

the first group of people you call when

7:57

you get a win and the first group of people you

7:59

call when you face a challenge . And they

8:01

know you so well they can cut through

8:03

a lot of the you know fluff

8:10

and also get to the heart of some of the biggest

8:12

decisions and then also help you navigate some of the things

8:14

that you know , the little gnat in your ear that you can't seem

8:16

to get rid of , and that is a really special bond

8:18

.

8:20

Because I think , as a founder , you , no

8:22

matter how much people might say , oh well , I've

8:24

got an open door policy . My

8:27

team can challenge me as much as they want , it's

8:29

like they can't . If you employ someone

8:31

, they cannot challenge you as much as they want . They

8:34

might push you once , but if you push back , there's

8:37

a limit to how far they'll go . Don't show a group of people

8:40

who are peers

8:42

, who care about you , who

8:45

you can't

8:47

fire . It's

8:49

probably the truest . I care enough about you to

8:51

truly give you that , that hard , hard

8:54

love .

8:55

Absolutely and it's quite rare I

8:57

think there's

9:00

the idea of your employees

9:02

or your business partners can never truly challenge

9:04

you Like I think that depends

9:06

on various people . I know lots of people who say I love to be

9:08

challenged and they shut it down all the time . But

9:10

there's the really hard

9:12

decisions that in some cases it's

9:15

not appropriate to discuss with certain

9:17

members of your team . And then there's

9:19

the hey , I'm really struggling

9:21

with something , with my kid

9:23

at home or my spouse , and I have , you know , really

9:26

, really tough argument . You don't

9:28

really want to talk to your business partner about that . In

9:30

some cases that can . That

9:32

can be the case with some business

9:34

partners , but for plenty of people it's not . But

9:36

I think the other aspect of this is , you

9:39

know , when you are a founder , I've

9:42

worked with high powered CEOs that run

9:44

businesses many times larger than anything that

9:46

I've ever even sniffed and

9:49

they're the CEO . They were installed by a private

9:51

equity firm or they were hired by the company

9:53

and if it fails , certainly

9:56

there's a really big deal there . They

9:58

could be fired , there could be professional consequences

10:01

, but it's not the business that they

10:03

started . Their identity is not necessarily

10:05

for better or for worse . Intrinsically , it's not the business that they started . Their identity is not necessarily , for better or for worse , intrinsically

10:08

wrapped up in the business , and

10:10

that is a an especially

10:13

unique burden to carry every day . Uh

10:15

, it's a very big deal to be the one

10:17

that signs the paychecks and you're responsible

10:20

for the payroll and people's benefits and people's families

10:22

and investors dollars . All

10:24

of that is really tough . But

10:26

when it's the thing that you

10:28

started , you brought all these people along on the

10:30

journey your friends , your family , your colleagues

10:32

. Everybody's been watching you on this journey

10:34

. From a founder's perspective , it

10:37

is uniquely lonely in

10:39

that regard , and

10:41

it's again you face

10:44

a potential failure , you face a potential major

10:47

setback . It's

10:49

one thing to be the one that's carrying the burden , it's another

10:51

when again it's yours . You

10:53

are the one that started it . Whatever percentage

10:55

of the company you own , that

10:57

hangs on you in a particularly

11:00

unique way , and

11:04

I think some of that's difficult for non-founders to

11:06

understand .

11:07

It feels like being a founder , like , oh

11:09

, you're a founder , you've made it , particularly your business is doing

11:11

subjectively

11:14

or even objectively well . It's like , well

11:16

, what , what , what , what have you got to complain about ?

11:18

Like these are not real problems , which

11:20

is it's not to say that founders

11:23

are better or worse than others . It's just something that

11:25

you cannot truly

11:27

understand until you've experienced it

11:29

. And it's not a perfect analogy , but

11:31

I would say it's similar to being

11:33

a parent . Until you are a

11:35

parent , you cannot understand

11:38

what that is like to bring a

11:40

child into the world , to watch your own child

11:42

take their first steps . I've had nieces and

11:44

nephews , I've had best friends with kids . It's wonderful

11:46

, it's heartwarming , it's so great and

11:48

it is nothing compared

11:51

to seeing your own children go through

11:53

that journey . And so , while

11:55

not a perfect analogy , it's just one of those things

11:57

that , until you experience it , it's

12:00

just not something that you can truly

12:02

internalize and comprehend . The

12:05

highs or the lows , you know it's . It's

12:07

hey , have a big win , that's

12:09

great . But like if I've spent the last

12:12

decade on this win and it's

12:14

my company that I started , and

12:16

again you get all these people that you've convinced

12:19

to come along on the journey . They're believing in you

12:21

personally along the way

12:23

. It

12:25

is , I think , the most

12:27

extraordinary professional gift and the most

12:30

extraordinary professional burden .

12:34

What would you suggest to people when , like as a first

12:36

step , if they were looking for that type of groom

12:38

, what would they do ?

12:41

So the ones that I am aware

12:43

of Hampton

12:45

, sampar and

12:48

is a kind of global , more global

12:50

, more decentralized network , more virtual

12:52

, although they are growing in person . Ypo

12:55

has been around for a long time . Eo

12:57

, vistage I would

12:59

just Google those and learn a little

13:01

bit about it and if none of those are the right fit , based

13:04

on your age , stage , business

13:06

etc . Or geography , just

13:08

keep keep going down the google train . And lord

13:11

knows , these days , with all the ai perplexity

13:13

and chat gpt , go ask them for suggestions

13:15

, tell them about your business and what you're looking for , and it

13:17

will probably find a great suggestion for you . Um

13:20

, but the the thing

13:22

that is the

13:24

next pivotal step is so you get into the chapter

13:26

, you get into the organization , whatever that looks like

13:28

. When you find that group

13:31

that you are placed in six , eight

13:33

, 10 , 12 people you have

13:35

to make sure that it's the right two

13:38

way bond , and

13:40

so in my experience , you

13:42

interview groups to be

13:45

a part of and the groups interview you and

13:47

you shouldn't be offended if they don't want you in

13:49

the group and they shouldn't be offended if you don't want to be in their

13:51

group . It needs to be the right fit and

13:53

then , once you cross that bridge . Make

13:56

sure that you properly invest in the

13:58

overall experience . It's one of those

14:00

. You get what you give and I

14:02

was briefly a part of a YPO forum Wonderful

14:05

people . I

14:08

was very happy to have met them and shared some

14:10

of our experiences . I dropped out

14:12

after about four months because I was moving out

14:14

of town , but

14:16

the part of the thing that I noticed was for

14:19

the people that were in , that several of them weren't

14:21

that interested in really committing

14:24

to the experience and so

14:26

, like my forum that I've been with for eight years

14:28

, for a

14:31

four hour window of time once

14:33

a month , we block everything out

14:35

, you turn your cell phones off , you tell your

14:37

spouse where you're going to be and you know you check

14:39

your phone once or twice , but otherwise you

14:41

block out the outside world and you dedicate

14:43

that time . Then we go to dinner and

14:46

, you know , grow the social

14:48

experience on top of the professional sharing

14:50

and we take

14:52

it very seriously . And for several years we

14:54

would fine each other for being late even

14:56

by one minute and we would fine each other

14:59

for missing meetings or dinners and

15:01

it was really rigid and structured

15:03

and it's not about

15:05

the money of the fine , it's about

15:08

saying I truly commit

15:10

to this experience , because if

15:12

even one or two people falter , in

15:14

it it takes away

15:16

the overall that

15:19

exists . And in the beginning you really

15:22

have to force the structure Because

15:24

it's like , oh well , you know there is some traffic

15:26

, ok , we'll make sure that you leave

15:28

, you know , 20 minutes early and

15:30

if you get there early , that's great , no problem , you can

15:32

sit and do some work , you can catch up with

15:34

the rest of the group . We have relaxed

15:37

those fines and penalties and

15:39

sometimes we wonder if we should bring it back

15:41

, because you know the the they

15:44

in the world of forums . Forums , they talk about um

15:46

forming , norming and

15:48

storming , which is like in the beginning you form

15:50

, then you create your norms and then storms are , things

15:53

start to break and you kind of got to bring it back together

15:55

again . But there are a lot of really great

15:57

forum training resources available

15:59

for free . A lot of the these

16:01

organizations will put you through a forum training

16:03

so you understand why things

16:06

matter . And then the other kind

16:08

of piece that I've learned through this

16:10

is our forum

16:12

has moved to . I genuinely

16:14

believe we're , you know , one of the

16:16

top 0.01% of forum

16:19

bonds . You know in the world , in terms of our

16:21

commitment , how long we've been together , how strong

16:23

the bond is commitment , how long we've been together

16:25

, how strong the bond is In the beginning . They will

16:27

tell you never

16:29

tell someone what to do . And

16:32

when someone says , well , you know , I'm really struggling , should

16:34

I let this person go

16:37

or should I enter this new market ? And

16:39

if you say , oh gosh , you got to fire him

16:41

, you're

16:44

making a huge mistake if you don't let them go right away . Whether

16:47

you acknowledge it or not , there is a sense of judgment and expertise

16:49

and I know better associated with that

16:51

, even if , quite literally , you were in

16:54

the exact same experience . You

16:56

know exactly what they're going through and you are helping

16:58

them to the best of your ability . If

17:00

you start telling them what to do , then

17:03

there can be some fissures

17:05

in those bonds that are starting to form . And

17:08

so they tell you to use

17:10

gestalt , language and experience

17:12

, share so things like you

17:14

know , when I went through a

17:17

rough termination experience with a team member , you

17:19

know these are the things that I was feeling and these are the

17:22

things that I did . You're sharing from your

17:24

experience . You're not saying , saying this is

17:26

what I know that you should do after

17:29

a couple years , if the forum is really strong

17:31

, you end up moving to the point where you'll go come on

17:33

, you know you got fire . You know you

17:36

know what you got to do . I know you , you know you

17:38

, but it takes a long time

17:40

to get there and you need to put in the

17:42

ground work to be able to have

17:44

that type of relationship . It's honestly not that

17:46

dissimilar from like building a strong

17:48

bond with a spouse you

17:50

that you have to put in that groundwork over

17:52

a very long period of time to have a strong foundation

17:55

to be able to communicate more effectively

17:57

and openly and short circuit a

18:00

lot of the you know , delicate dance that happens

18:02

in those early months of in years

18:04

of getting to know each other delicate

18:07

dance that

18:10

happens in those early months of , in years of getting to

18:12

know each other .

18:13

It's a really nice

18:15

insight that , like how did I was

18:18

actually like need

18:20

to earn also the right to have that style of communication and that's what we kind of want

18:22

to get to but you can't jump to it no , and mean .

18:24

The silliest example that I can think of as

18:26

a comparison is last

18:28

time I was at a cocktail party

18:30

and some random person I never met they're asking

18:32

me oh , what are you doing ? And I tell

18:35

them they're like oh , you should do this and why aren't you doing

18:37

this ? And they start telling me all this and be like thank you

18:39

, so nice to meet you and

18:50

I'm glad that you know everything that I should be doing . And in some cases people are genuine and they

18:52

feel like they want to help and in others people just want to hear themselves talk and feel smart

18:54

and valued . But if you think about it from a friendship perspective the best

18:56

friendships you build a lot of

18:58

work in to build that mutual trust

19:00

and respect before you get to a point

19:02

where you can short circuit the pleasantries and

19:04

the level of niceties that

19:06

come along with interpersonal communication

19:09

.

19:12

So you found a network In the UK . You've got Helm

19:14

as well , which is a very good sort

19:16

of founder network and

19:20

you've interviewed the people , you've

19:22

understood that

19:24

there's a match . You

19:26

kind of go into it sort of softly and go okay

19:28

, well , let's just , there's no judgment

19:31

. I'm offering this stuff lightly . I'm

19:33

not telling you what to do . What

19:36

is the emirates like ? If you look at your experience now

19:38

so you've been this one for eight years how much of your success

19:40

would you apportion

19:43

? to this group of all the things that you

19:45

do oh , that's a great question

19:48

.

19:49

I think they would say 110 percent of

19:52

my success , um , but

19:57

, like , certainly

19:59

they have been vital to

20:01

what I've learned , how I've thought

20:03

about things like the underlying

20:06

growth that I've had

20:09

as a professional . So much of that is

20:11

attributed to the way that our group

20:13

has grown and bonded , but

20:17

it's not like I'm running every

20:19

decision through them and there will be

20:21

times where I won't talk to anybody directly for

20:23

weeks at a time , and so it's

20:26

just the nature of life , especially with

20:28

young kids . I

20:30

think the way that I would frame it , as

20:33

we were a little bit talking about the Time

20:36

Best Invention Award , it

20:38

is one of those fundamental

20:41

long-term drivers

20:44

of success where that

20:46

award and that recognition is not

20:48

a viral pop and

20:51

in doing so , it

20:53

reduces the risk . I was just having a conversation

20:55

with my co-founder about this today . It reduces the risk

20:57

for other press outlets to write about us . It

21:00

reduces the risk for influencers to work with

21:02

us . It reduces the risk for a consumer to

21:04

click buy . As you go

21:06

through each of those things , no one

21:08

award , no one press hit tends

21:10

to ever be the viral driver of success

21:13

, but it tends to matter a lot

21:15

over the long term .

21:19

And it's more than just business success , as you said . It's

21:21

like your success as a , your

21:23

growth as a leader , your success as

21:25

an individual , your development as a person

21:27

, your enjoyment of the journey it's

21:30

about . It's about so

21:32

many more facets .

21:33

Yeah , and you know , I think also

21:35

importantly , I would say the it's

21:38

not just about the professional . Some

21:41

of the things that we have talked about as

21:43

a group and spent a lot of time on

21:45

have reframed the

21:47

way that I look at the world . I

21:50

can't turn my camera here , but I have a

21:52

giant poster to my right

21:54

which is a life calendar

21:56

. So a guy named Tim Erden , amazing

21:59

writer and blogger his blog is Wait , but why

22:02

? I may have seen

22:04

the blog before , but one of the guys in our forum

22:06

reads a lot of his stuff and Tim

22:08

wrote this piece called the

22:10

Tail End , which , if you haven't read

22:12

it , it's one of the most impactful

22:14

pieces of writing I've ever come across . And

22:17

, in short , he

22:19

frames up an appropriate

22:21

kind of analysis of your

22:23

life , which is , if you have 52

22:27

columns across and

22:29

90 rows down , that

22:31

is your life in weeks . Every

22:36

week that goes by . That's a checkbox and that's an interesting way to visualize your life

22:38

in weeks . Every week that goes by , that's a checkbox and that's an interesting way to visualize your life . And at the end of the week

22:40

, you know , did I use this checkbox well or not

22:42

? But the more impactful

22:44

takeaway was he framed

22:46

up that analysis or that kind

22:49

of pictorial representation of your life

22:51

and said things like

22:53

his father and

22:55

he , every year they'll

22:57

go to one I think it was Red Sox game . He's

23:00

like my dad is in his . I think he

23:02

said at the time , like late 60s , early

23:04

70s , we're probably going to miss

23:06

one or two years because of weather or travel

23:08

delays or something , and so like

23:10

how many of those do

23:12

I have left ? And based

23:14

on the number of days that exist in your

23:17

life , if you're lucky , and your parents

23:19

, if you don't live near

23:21

your parents when

23:23

you leave for college or university

23:25

, you've spent something like 98%

23:29

of the days that you will ever spend with your parents

23:31

. You've spent that with them Because

23:33

if you don't live near them , how many times a year you're going to

23:35

see them , et cetera , et cetera . And so that representation

23:38

it can be very macabre

23:40

and it can be very sobering

23:43

to see . There are silly

23:45

things like if you read two or three

23:47

books a year , which is a lot for most people

23:49

, how many books will you read

23:51

in the rest of your life and how

23:53

many books have ever been written Like

23:55

I ? had this amazing bookshelf

23:57

behind me . I have not tackled probably

24:00

half of what I want to up there

24:02

, and so I

24:04

looked at it as and we spent a lot of time talking about

24:06

this as a forum and talk about it very deep more

24:08

of a positive reframing . To say , when

24:11

I'm with my parents , how

24:14

do I make sure that I spend that time more

24:17

positively ? How do I reframe

24:20

some of the conversations that I have with

24:22

friends , family , with experiences , and

24:25

, honestly , for me it's made life much

24:27

richer and much sweeter

24:29

. I'm so

24:31

fortunate to be able to take my kids to school a

24:34

lot of mornings . We ride our bikes fortunate

24:36

to be able to take my kids

24:38

to school a lot of mornings and we ride our bikes

24:40

. And riding

24:44

my bike with my kids to school is this intensely

24:46

beautiful thing on such a just

24:51

basic level , like it's nothing magical as most people

24:53

would frame it up , but for me it is , because I won't have that many . I have

24:55

very few years left of it and you just you never know

24:58

how many times you get to do that , and so it's been

25:00

a very positive reframing , and all

25:02

of that came from discussions with

25:04

our forum , and Kyle

25:06

loves reading this type of stuff and sharing

25:08

it with other people . So fortunate that he was able

25:10

to share that in the early days of

25:12

my kids lives , because it helped to reframe

25:14

, I think , the time that I've spent

25:16

with them .

25:19

So I was actually part of a forum for six

25:21

years and

25:24

, yes , I think I'm with

25:26

you in terms of like life changing

25:28

, mutual bonds

25:30

, true understanding of like having

25:34

people that you actually

25:36

hear , like you value their opinion , yes

25:39

, and you want to hear it . I think that's

25:41

a rare gift , particularly got a large group of them

25:43

, and also look forward to that challenge , that perspective

25:45

, but I totally agree like it

25:48

leads you to be to think about things differently

25:50

and carries impact

25:52

into the wildlife . Actually , we all met

25:54

up and everyone's spouses were like do

25:57

you ever feel like ? Because so farley was the guy

25:59

who was sort of chairing our group . I

26:01

was like do you ever did ? Does your partner ever come

26:04

home ? And you feel like you're being coached by farley

26:06

via your partner .

26:09

Yes , it's kind of like

26:11

yep , that is a feeling that is is

26:13

uh experienced by spouses sometimes

26:15

do you think

26:17

there comes a point where

26:22

you need to change your group ? I

26:28

would say it depends on the experience that

26:30

you have . I can't imagine

26:32

, especially at this point in time

26:34

, ever changing my group . I

26:38

moved to DC for about

26:40

20 months from Dallas where I live and

26:43

I remoted into our

26:45

meetings from DC and I came

26:48

back a few times surprising

26:50

the group that I was coming was actually one

26:52

of the one of the coolest

26:54

experiences I had as a part of our forum

26:56

, because no one knew that I was coming in , knew

27:07

that I was coming in . If the group I think if the group stops being a

27:09

positive contributor to your life in a meaningful way

27:11

, then I think it probably would be time

27:13

to move on and forums

27:15

break up and people move on , and

27:17

sometimes it could be , you

27:20

know , one or two people move on and then the forum

27:22

actually gets a lot stronger because those

27:24

folks weren't necessarily all in or the

27:26

way that they were starting to frame up their lives just

27:28

wasn't in alignment with the group . But

27:33

I can't imagine moving

27:35

on from my forum and the reality

27:37

is there's

27:40

no one in my forum that has built a business

27:42

like I have and again

27:45

, that's not better or worse . We just built different

27:47

businesses and that's fine , because I'm not looking

27:49

for my forum to tell me how I

27:51

should scale my Facebook you know ad

27:53

strategy over the course of the next 18

27:56

months . I can learn from how

27:58

some of them have tackled similar challenges

28:00

. There's another , there's one

28:02

other direct to consumer business in my forum

28:04

and we share experiences

28:06

. But I

28:09

can find other people who are experts

28:12

at Facebook ad strategies . And the

28:14

cool part about today's world , especially with social media

28:16

, is I've met plenty of other

28:18

awesome DTC founders that

28:21

we share strategic thoughts . But like

28:23

I'm not calling them when

28:25

my son wins his you

28:27

know cross-country race and say , oh , this is so

28:29

exciting because we don't have that relationship and that

28:31

that's okay , um , but

28:34

I would say if the forum , if

28:36

whatever your group is , ends

28:39

up not being a net positive , especially

28:41

with the amount that you need to invest in

28:43

a group like that to make it work , it'd probably

28:46

be time to find another group . That

28:48

may be very hard to do and

28:51

it's not to say you're like keeping

28:53

track of debits and credits and the minute it switches

28:55

negative you need to leave . But

28:59

it's part of why I haven't joined

29:01

another forum because , um

29:03

and I've tried twice , very briefly , given

29:05

the groups that I was privileged to be a part

29:07

of . I can't

29:09

dedicate that amount of time to another group

29:12

and , um , I

29:14

have to be very militant

29:16

about the time that I have and

29:18

I want to be respectful of the other groups that I'm in

29:20

, because if I can't commit and contribute

29:22

then

29:25

I am taking from other people in a way that someone else should be in that spot

29:27

for them .