0:00

everyone and thanks for joining me

0:02

today for episode 810 of the

0:04

People Behind the Science podcast. I'm

0:06

Dr. Marie McNeely and today

0:08

we're resharing our conversation with our

0:10

guest Dr. Christine Dre. Listener's

0:13

research in Christine's lab examines

0:15

animal behavior from an integrative

0:17

perspective. She and her

0:19

colleagues are investigating the

0:21

genetic, behavioral, cognitive, sensory and

0:24

endocrine mechanisms involved in

0:26

social interactions and communications in

0:28

socially complex animals. Christine

0:30

primarily studies female dominant

0:32

species such as hyenas, lemurs,

0:35

and meerkats. And in

0:37

our interview, Christine shared some

0:39

wonderful stories from her career,

0:41

her lab, and her life.

0:43

So listeners, sit back, relax,

0:45

and enjoy this episode of

0:47

People Behind the Science. Every

0:50

day discoveries are made that will change

0:52

our understanding of the world around us.

0:54

Dr. Marie McNeely is here to bring

0:56

you the brilliant minds who are making

0:58

these discoveries so they can share their

1:00

incredible stories and take you on an

1:02

amazing journey. Welcome to People

1:04

Behind the Science. Hello

1:14

everyone and welcome to People Behind the

1:16

Science. Today I am thrilled

1:18

to be speaking with our guest scientist, Dr.

1:20

Christine Dre. So Christine, welcome to our

1:22

show today. How are you? I'm fine. It's

1:24

a pleasure to be talking to you

1:26

today. Well, it is a delight to have

1:28

you here with us and we're excited to learn

1:30

more about you and the wonderful work that you do.

1:32

But let me first start by telling our listeners

1:34

a little bit about your current position and your background.

1:37

So listeners, Christine is the Earl D.

1:39

McLean Professor of Evolutionary Anthropology, as

1:41

well as Professor in the Department of

1:43

Biology, the University Program in Ecology,

1:45

and the Duke Institute for Brain Sciences

1:48

at Duke University. She completed

1:50

her undergraduate training in zoology at the

1:52

University of Maryland College Park. and

1:54

Christine earned her Master's and PhD degrees

1:56

in Psychobiology from Emory University. Afterward,

1:59

she conducted postdoctoral research and physiology at

2:01

the Morehouse School of Medicine, and

2:03

she was also awarded a National Institutes

2:05

of Health National Research Service Award

2:07

Postdoctoral Fellowship in Psychology at UC Berkeley.

2:09

Next, Christine served as a lecturer

2:11

at the University of California Berkeley before

2:13

joining the faculty there at Duke

2:16

University. And at Duke, she

2:18

has been awarded the Thomas Langford Lectureship

2:20

Award for the appeal of her

2:22

research to an interdisciplinary audience and the

2:24

embodiment of Langford's dedication to teaching,

2:26

research, and service. And Christine, today

2:28

we are excited to learn more about you

2:30

as a scientist, but also more about you as

2:32

a person in general. So can you start

2:34

by telling us what you like to do when

2:36

you're not doing science? When

2:39

I'm not doing science, that's a

2:41

trick question. I guess gardening,

2:44

playing and walking with my

2:46

dogs, nothing too exciting these

2:48

days. Travel is always

2:50

a top priority, but

2:52

free time is scarce. I

2:54

totally understand. Tell us a little bit more about

2:56

your dogs. I'm a dog crazy person myself, so

2:58

what kind do you have? I

3:00

have a black and tan coon

3:03

hound, female, and then

3:05

she bred with... Cadajula male

3:07

that I have, so I have

3:09

their son who is part

3:11

Cadajula, part Black and Tan Coonhound.

3:13

Aww, they sound beautiful. Do

3:15

they get to travel with you

3:17

at all? Not really. Usually my

3:20

travel requires plane rides that are

3:22

not their favorite thing. Completely understand.

3:25

Well, Christine, it's great to get a window into some

3:27

of your hobbies outside of science, but I'd love

3:29

to chat about your work as well. So can you

3:31

tell me how you describe what you do to

3:33

someone who is not familiar with their specific research or

3:35

your field? There's not

3:37

a simple caption that encapsulates

3:39

it all, but I

3:41

say that I study animal

3:43

behavior from an integrative

3:45

perspective. And I focus on

3:47

socially complex mammals, so

3:49

including primates and carnivores. And

3:52

I'm interested in the mechanisms,

3:55

the things that make social

3:57

animals tick and relate to

3:59

one another and communicate with

4:01

one another. And that can

4:03

be anything from a genetic

4:05

mechanism to a behavioral, cognitive

4:07

olfactory, other sensory endocrine, for example.

4:09

I like it. Well, you've piqued my

4:11

interest, Christine. I look forward to chatting more

4:13

about some of these projects that you're

4:15

working on as we go through our conversation

4:17

today. But let me start first by

4:19

talking a little bit about what motivates you.

4:21

I think scientists in general are often

4:23

very excited about the subjects that they're studying.

4:25

But I love to gather motivational quotes

4:27

and sayings, little pieces of inspiration that me

4:29

and our listeners can use in our

4:31

own lives. So do you have a favorite

4:34

quote or a saying or something that

4:36

really motivates you? I guess I would say

4:38

the thing that motivates me the most

4:40

is my interest in the animals themselves. So

4:42

a lot of what I do is

4:44

question based, but the questions are focused

4:46

on animals that are really interesting to

4:48

me. So very unusual

4:50

animals. And by unusual,

4:53

I'm referring to animals that are

4:55

female dominant. So they roll

4:57

the roost often with a heavy

5:00

hand and that female dominance

5:02

comes along with a suite of

5:04

other traits. that suggest masculinization

5:06

of females. So I study

5:08

animals that are experiments of nature,

5:10

if you will. So that's one of

5:12

the main things that motivates me

5:14

is not just the question, but the

5:16

animals that I can study to

5:18

answer those questions. So that gives

5:20

some common basis for my selection

5:22

of spotted hyenas, my selection of various

5:25

lemurs, and my selection of meerkats.

5:27

I know you mentioned you studied quite

5:29

a few different animals and even

5:31

a few different types of hyenas or

5:33

lemurs. Do you have a one

5:35

that's maybe got a special place in

5:37

your heart that is your favorite

5:39

right now? Well, I shouldn't say

5:41

this too loudly, being so close to the

5:43

Duke Lemur Center, but it's spotted hyenas

5:45

for sure. Oh, good choice, good choice. They're

5:48

just so fascinating. You can't

5:50

beat a spotted hyena. I love it. Well, we

5:52

heard a little bit about what motivates you

5:54

to go in and do the hard work that

5:56

you're doing every day. But I'd love to

5:58

talk a little bit next about some of the

6:00

people who might have motivated you or inspired

6:02

you or just had a really big impact on

6:04

your career. So can you tell us about

6:06

some of these role models or mentors or figures

6:08

that you've looked up to? I guess closest

6:10

to home would be my parents, my dad in

6:12

particular, who was a research entomologist. And

6:15

his pursuit of his dreams

6:17

and research is really what

6:19

formed some of my early

6:22

interests in the world around

6:24

me, the environment, animals,

6:26

travel, curiosity

6:28

about the things around us. So

6:31

I'd have to say my

6:33

dad. Otherwise, I had a really

6:35

fantastic experience working with Steve

6:37

Glickman at the Hyena Berkeley facility.

6:40

So that was very motivational

6:42

and influential. Certainly. Well, it sounds

6:44

like you had some great role models and mentors

6:46

at these different stages of your career, and I'd

6:48

love to talk a little bit more about the

6:50

early days of your career in your life, Christine.

6:52

You mentioned that your father kind of got you

6:54

interested perhaps in science and travel. Can

6:56

you tell us when you first started getting excited

6:58

about science? Do you have particular memories of things

7:00

that you did or what was going through your

7:02

mind? Well, we grew up

7:04

traveling with him. So I

7:06

was born overseas, raised overseas, and

7:09

traveled throughout all of that time. He

7:12

was a research entomologist who

7:14

worked in biocontrol. So essentially looking

7:16

for the good bugs that

7:18

ate the bad bugs to control

7:20

pests in the US primarily. So

7:23

we were always on collection

7:25

trips. devising ways to collect insects

7:27

and their parasites. And

7:30

that just meant that family

7:32

trips were always outdoors in not

7:34

necessarily in tourist destinations, but

7:36

in the communities, in the countryside,

7:38

in the forests, in the

7:40

desert, wherever there was a relevant

7:42

insect to look for. So

7:45

that just sort of opened up

7:47

my eyes to the environment,

7:49

the interactions between animals, the

7:51

communities, the ecosystems. So

7:54

I necessarily

7:56

point to the earliest experience because they

7:58

were from day one. I had

8:00

a passport by the time I was

8:02

a couple months old. You

8:04

were fully immersed. Yeah. I guess

8:06

it was sort of an unusual

8:09

upbringing and people around us in

8:11

our neighborhood recognized that. So if

8:13

they ever came across an injured

8:15

animal, they would bring it to

8:17

my house because Dr. Dre, meaning

8:20

my father, would know what to

8:22

do. So yeah, it was always

8:24

a hub of activity and a

8:26

hub of species diversity from our

8:28

pets to animals that we were

8:31

temporarily caring for. Just

8:33

the other animals that you would

8:35

see while traveling. And I was

8:37

particularly interested to the furry kind

8:39

rather than the insect kind. So

8:41

the large mammals of Africa always

8:43

held a special place in my

8:45

heart. Gotcha. So even from

8:47

that early age, did you kind of realize that this was

8:49

a career that you wanted to pursue? Or was it

8:51

off the radar for you? It was

8:53

off the radar in terms of a

8:56

professorship, for instance. So that came

8:58

later. But the passion for the

9:00

natural world around me was present from

9:02

the get -go, but how I

9:04

came to study it was not necessarily

9:06

a laid -out plan. I

9:08

didn't go through that whole college

9:10

of your choice kind of experience

9:12

that many people do. I went

9:15

to schools overseas and we didn't

9:17

have career fairs or advice about

9:19

picking colleges and what to do

9:21

career -wise and so forth. So

9:23

it was kind of haphazard. So

9:25

can you tell us a little bit more then

9:28

about how you went from this curious kid, maybe

9:30

with an attraction particularly towards mammals and understanding them

9:32

to where you are today? What are some of

9:34

these key moments that really helped you get there?

9:37

Well, I think my father

9:39

being transferred to the States

9:41

when I was about 19,

9:43

although a difficult transition was

9:45

probably key to facing undergraduate

9:48

school and choosing a major

9:50

and ultimately pursuing graduate school. So

9:52

I don't know if that

9:54

would have happened necessarily if I

9:56

had stayed in Europe. So

9:59

Christine, I love hearing a little bit more about

10:01

how scientists' passions began for the fields and the

10:03

work that they're doing. And you mentioned that this

10:05

move to the United States was a big transition

10:07

for you. And then you enrolled in undergraduate. Can

10:10

you talk a little bit about your undergraduate experience

10:12

and whether you were able to participate in research then?

10:14

I was able to participate in research. I

10:16

think I thought it out in particular

10:18

because I was having such a hard

10:20

time with the transition. Moving

10:22

from Paris to Beltsville, Maryland was a

10:25

bit of a culture shock in

10:27

the 80s. So I'm afraid

10:29

to say I was very motivated to leave as

10:31

soon as possible and as often as possible. And

10:34

one of those experiences was

10:36

to go to Australia and participate

10:38

in a study of bower

10:40

birds and their mating behavior. So

10:42

that was just an experience

10:44

in a beautiful part of Australia

10:46

that was so rich with

10:48

different species and curious critters and

10:50

was just absolutely fascinating. So

10:53

ultimately, even though that was

10:55

on birds, they were amazingly sophisticated

10:57

in their behavior and unusual

10:59

in their courtship and so forth.

11:01

So that trip to Australia

11:04

was particularly enlightening for my professional

11:06

track. Certainly, and then you

11:08

made that decision to then continue

11:10

on to graduate school at

11:12

Emory University. Can you talk a

11:14

little bit about your experience

11:16

there? Well, it happened

11:18

a little bit with a delay, so

11:20

I ended up working at the

11:22

National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland

11:25

for a few years, doing real

11:27

science, sort of hardcore, looking

11:29

at the effects of

11:31

diabetes on vision. It

11:33

was important work, but it wasn't where

11:35

my heart was, and I think

11:37

that's part of the trajectory. So

11:39

knowing what you like to

11:42

do and knowing what you

11:44

don't necessarily like to do

11:46

are somewhat equally important. So

11:48

it wasn't until I had

11:50

been working in a ultramicroscopy

11:52

lab for a few years

11:54

that I realized I was

11:56

curious about the scientific process

11:58

I enjoyed being able to

12:00

pose questions. design studies, conduct

12:02

the research to answer those

12:04

questions. But the push

12:06

for being able to design my

12:08

own questions was in areas that

12:10

were of particular interest to me

12:12

were what really led me to

12:14

go to graduate school with somewhat

12:16

of a delay from graduating from

12:18

undergrad. Can you talk about then

12:20

some of these key moments from graduate school

12:23

on maybe just touch a little bit on

12:25

your graduate school experience and then your subsequent

12:27

postdoc experiences? Well, my

12:29

graduate experience, which was at

12:31

Emory, as you said, was doing

12:33

research at the Yorkies Regional

12:35

Primate Center, which has a field

12:37

station associated with Emory. So

12:39

it was these large enclosures for

12:41

outdoor housing of large groups

12:43

of animals. So that's what really

12:46

got me interested in the

12:48

social interactions. I was

12:50

working with Rhesus macaques

12:52

and studying behavioral endocrinology,

12:54

so how hormones change

12:56

over the course of

12:58

seasons or different life

13:00

stages or four animals

13:02

of different social status

13:04

and how those hormonal

13:06

changes influenced behavior. So

13:09

really looking at mechanisms

13:11

to understand social interactions and

13:13

social behavior. And I

13:15

ended up becoming interested in

13:17

these effects of dominance and

13:19

looked at that for my

13:21

own dissertation, which was more

13:23

on learning behavior. How

13:25

is it that animals learn

13:27

and perform a task that

13:29

they know? How do they

13:31

do so if they are

13:33

high ranking versus low ranking?

13:36

So it had some parallels

13:38

to human societal issues and

13:40

questions. So my dissertation

13:42

research was basically showing

13:44

that dominant and supportive animals

13:46

could learn equally well,

13:49

but their performance would be

13:51

inhibited under certain circumstances. So

13:53

then I really became interested

13:55

in this powerful effect of dominance

13:57

and kind of guiding behavior

14:00

or limiting expression of behavior. And

14:02

I think that was when

14:04

I heard about some new studies

14:06

coming out of the Berkeley

14:08

hyena facility that just really completely

14:10

captivated me. And I was

14:12

probably for one of the only

14:14

times in my life really

14:16

drawn to a particular species and

14:18

a particular question. And I

14:20

pursued that with great vigor, I

14:22

guess. and wrote a grant

14:24

to get the position funded out

14:26

there. And once I got

14:28

it, headed to the Bay Area.

14:31

Wonderful. So can you tell us a little bit

14:33

about what drew you then to Duke University afterwards? Well,

14:36

I was working at Berkeley on

14:38

the only captive hyena population in

14:41

the world, which actually made it

14:43

a little bit challenging to move

14:45

on to the next position. What

14:47

do you do when you've

14:50

funneled yourself down a very narrow,

14:52

highly specialized trajectory. So

14:54

what drew me to Duke

14:56

was I had already been

14:58

looking to see how I

15:00

could continue my interests, but

15:02

make them broader, if you

15:04

will. So I had

15:06

already identified lemurs as a comparative

15:08

group that would be very interesting.

15:10

because they were known to be

15:13

female dominant, but there wasn't so

15:15

much information about that other suite

15:17

of traits that I was talking

15:19

about earlier. And yet I

15:21

had seen some very early studies

15:23

that had commented on the unusual morphology

15:25

of lemurs. So I was interested

15:27

to see if there was a link

15:29

between those traits. And

15:32

lo and behold, a position was

15:34

advertised looking for a reproductive endocrinologist

15:36

to work on lemurs at the

15:38

Duke Lemur Center. So it was

15:40

almost kismet that there was actually

15:42

a fit to be so specialized

15:44

and yet to be able to

15:47

fit the bill for something that

15:49

was being advertised was really quite

15:51

remarkable. So I didn't see myself

15:53

as an anthropologist and yet it

15:55

was a perfect opportunity. So

15:57

that's what drew me to Duke

15:59

was the Duke Lemur Center and

16:01

the diversity of animals that they

16:03

have. The fact that they're in

16:05

these beautiful outdoor and forested enclosures

16:07

and the socially semi -free

16:09

ranging in a very naturalistic

16:12

habitat. It was perfect. Absolutely.

16:14

I'm glad you hinted at this point

16:16

of being open -minded when you're looking to

16:18

take that next stage in your career and

16:20

sort of being ready to jump on

16:23

any of those opportunities that might come your

16:25

way that look like the perfect fit,

16:27

even though, like you said, you weren't necessarily

16:29

ready to be labeled as an anthropologist,

16:31

but you've touched on some different projects that

16:33

you've been able to work on over

16:35

the course of your career, Christine. But I'd

16:37

love to chat about some the projects

16:40

that are ongoing in your lab right now.

16:42

So do you have a particular project

16:44

you are particularly excited about that you want

16:46

to tell me and our listeners more

16:48

about today? Well, I have two main projects

16:50

that are ongoing. One, we finished the

16:52

data collection, but it's a culmination of some

16:54

six years of research on meerkats in

16:56

the Kalahari. So that is, again, another species

16:59

that is female dominant. And I was

17:01

interested in hormonal mechanisms underlying that female dominance

17:03

and was able to do a field

17:05

manipulation of hormones, which is quite rare and

17:07

was quite exciting. And the

17:09

results from that project are

17:11

really interesting. So it's kind

17:13

of an exciting time to

17:16

tie that up and get

17:18

that published and out there.

17:20

So a lot of work

17:22

still ongoing with analyzing meerkat

17:24

data. And then another project

17:26

for which I'm currently funded

17:29

is looking at lemurs using

17:31

the Duke Lemur Center animals

17:33

and looking at effects of

17:35

antibiotics on the health, well

17:37

-being, recovery of animals and

17:39

the effects on their chemical

17:41

signaling. So there's been

17:44

a lot of recent work

17:46

on understanding the microbiome

17:48

of animals, so how those

17:50

billions of microscopic critters

17:52

that live within us are

17:54

actually influencing our behavior. This

17:57

is sort of adding a

17:59

new mechanism, which is the

18:01

microbial diversity within us. So

18:03

up until now, I had

18:05

been focusing on the animal

18:08

itself and its endogenous systems

18:10

within and how those affected

18:12

the interactions of the animal

18:14

with its peers and group

18:16

members. And now this

18:18

is actually looking at another level,

18:20

which is the interaction of

18:23

that organism, but now as a

18:25

host to all of these

18:27

microorganisms living within it, and with

18:29

which it has formed a

18:31

symbiotic relationship. As an

18:33

example of that, lemurs are

18:35

heavily olfactory critters, so they

18:37

scent mark their environment, they

18:40

scent mark one another, and

18:42

communicate through these chemical signals. And

18:45

these chemical signals have

18:47

long been thought to be

18:49

influenced by the bacteria that

18:51

live within the scent glands.

18:53

And now with the advent

18:55

of new genetic techniques that

18:57

allow us to separate out

18:59

the genetic material of these

19:01

microbiota, we can now assess

19:04

them and evaluate them, describe

19:06

them, and understand their function

19:08

more completely. So that is

19:10

what this ongoing project is

19:12

about, is looking at. how

19:14

antibiotics might negatively impact our

19:16

microbiome and might change how

19:18

we communicate with others, how

19:20

we can handle the digestion

19:22

of the food that we

19:24

eat and so forth. And

19:26

so this is sort of

19:28

a hot area of research

19:30

right now and we're exploring

19:32

it from a somewhat unique

19:35

perspective. Absolutely. And

19:37

Christine, both of these projects are absolutely fascinating.

19:39

And I can imagine in sort of envisioning the

19:42

experiments that must go into them that there

19:44

are quite a few challenges that you encounter. And

19:46

I know there are a variety of different

19:48

problems you have to overcome as a scientist. So

19:50

do you have a story of a challenge

19:52

or a problem or a failure that you experienced

19:54

at one point in your career that you

19:56

were able to overcome? And you can tell me

19:58

in our listeners about. I

20:01

don't know if I'd call it

20:03

a failure, but it was definitely

20:05

a challenge, which was that the

20:07

research we conducted on the meerkats

20:09

out in the Kalahari occurred during

20:11

an unprecedented drought. Here

20:14

we have all this investment in

20:16

time to secure the grants to

20:18

fund this research, getting out a

20:20

whole team to go out to

20:22

the Kalahari, live there, learn about

20:24

the animals, and study

20:26

them. And essentially, we were

20:29

trying to look at mothers

20:31

while they were pregnant and

20:33

then follow their offspring once

20:35

they were born all the

20:37

way through to adulthood. So

20:39

it was a transgenerational study

20:42

looking at the hormone concentrations of

20:44

the moms while they're pregnant,

20:46

how those hormones affected their behavior,

20:48

and then how those hormones

20:50

actually affected the future behavior of

20:52

their offspring. So everything

20:54

was all lined up and

20:56

perfect and going to plan

20:58

except that this drought kicked

21:00

in and unfortunately the animals

21:02

were dropping like flies, including

21:04

animals that we were studying.

21:07

And in the first year we

21:09

were there, there was for

21:11

an entire population of meerkats, there

21:13

was one surviving pup due

21:15

to the drought. So it

21:17

was, like I said, not

21:19

a failure on our part, but

21:22

just one of these challenges

21:24

that is beyond anyone's control, probably

21:26

related to all the negative

21:28

effects of climate change. And we

21:30

had to cope with that

21:32

for virtually the entirety of our

21:34

study. which just made it

21:36

not only emotionally difficult to watch

21:38

all of these animals die

21:40

of starvation, but also very challenging

21:42

to be able to conduct

21:45

the research in a prescribed time,

21:47

right? Once you've started something,

21:49

you can't just push halt. The

21:51

research has to go on.

21:53

So what ended up happening is

21:55

that we found some pretty

21:57

interesting findings related to the drought

21:59

and related to how animals

22:01

cope with the drought. One of

22:03

them being that meerkats are

22:06

a cooperatively breeding species, so the

22:08

dominant female or queen for

22:10

ease of reference monopolizes most of

22:12

the reproductive opportunities. So she

22:14

produces the most pups by and

22:16

large, and the others help

22:18

her raise those pups. Subordinates

22:20

are physiologically capable of breeding,

22:22

but they just don't do

22:24

so successfully, oftentimes because the

22:27

dominant female kills their offspring.

22:29

And what we found during

22:31

the drought was that this

22:33

reproductive differential between the queen

22:35

and her servants was much

22:37

reduced. It's almost like the

22:39

drought evened out the playing

22:41

field. So all of a

22:43

sudden, subordinate females were now

22:45

becoming reproductively successful to the

22:48

point that they were almost

22:50

as reproductively successful as the

22:52

dominant female. So this

22:54

bizarre ecological event, which in

22:56

the grand scheme of things

22:58

isn't out of the realm

23:00

of normal in the Kalahari

23:02

Desert, right, to have extra

23:04

arid spells, showed that there

23:06

are other factors that influence

23:09

the behavior of animals, including

23:11

in this case, what their

23:13

breeding system looked like in

23:15

ways that were unexpected and

23:17

in ways that you couldn't

23:19

study without a really long

23:21

-term focal study on the

23:23

species that included good times

23:26

and bad times. But it

23:28

provided some insight into how

23:30

animals cope with the elements,

23:32

including not only their social

23:34

group members, but their environment

23:36

by modifying their strategies accordingly. Certainly,

23:39

well, Christine, thank you for sharing this story

23:41

of a difficult time that you went through. And

23:43

I am really impressed by your ability to

23:45

really take away valuable information and sort of pivot

23:47

your project so that it wasn't a complete

23:49

loss, even though the original study could not be

23:51

conducted as you planned. Well, we

23:53

managed to conduct the original study.

23:55

We just didn't achieve the sample

23:57

sizes that we had hoped to

24:00

achieve. So we'll see if the

24:02

reviewers will be kind and accepting. The

24:04

findings were profound. It's just, do

24:06

we have enough numbers to convince

24:09

people of that? So the challenge

24:11

remains to be resolved. Well,

24:13

Christine, we don't just want to talk about

24:15

the difficult times. I would love to talk

24:17

about one of your successes next. So do

24:19

you have a favorite success story from your

24:21

life or a career that you want to

24:23

share with us? Well, I guess sometimes the

24:25

favorite success stories are the ones that you

24:27

weren't necessarily anticipating. So I'd

24:29

say one of those came from

24:32

research with the hyenas, where

24:34

we had hypothesized something, which seems

24:36

like a very reasonable hypothesis. And

24:39

our results didn't support that at

24:41

all. But in the process, we

24:43

ended up being able to resolve

24:45

a question that has been around

24:47

since the time of Aristotle. So

24:50

that made me feel pretty good.

24:52

to just be able to answer

24:54

a question that has been puzzling

24:56

naturalists and evolutionary biologists for such

24:58

a long time. So what was

25:00

the question? Well, the question

25:02

revolves around one of the

25:04

female spotted hyenas' unique traits,

25:06

which is that she doesn't

25:09

have the same external reproductive

25:11

morphology that other females do,

25:13

and she essentially has to

25:15

give birth through a structure

25:17

that for all intents and

25:19

purposes is akin to a

25:21

penis. So a

25:23

female mammal who has to give

25:25

birth through a male structure, the

25:28

why and how of that has

25:30

been intriguing people for a very

25:32

long time, as you can well

25:34

imagine. She's the only female on

25:36

the planet that does this. And

25:39

the belief was that she

25:41

had this structure in place because

25:43

of the high levels of

25:45

testosterone that she would have been

25:47

exposed to while a fetus.

25:49

And that these high testosterone concentrations

25:52

would have masculinized her. And

25:54

what evolution would have been selecting

25:56

for is for the effects

25:58

of androgens on aggressive or dominant

26:00

behavior. In other words, spotted

26:02

hyenas have the most extreme form

26:04

of scramble competition for food,

26:06

which means they hunt their food

26:08

collectively, they take it down

26:10

as a group, and then they

26:12

also have to eat it

26:15

as a group, which means if

26:17

you aren't fast and you

26:19

don't have a seat at the

26:21

table, you don't get to

26:23

eat. They wolf down a full

26:25

-grown wildebeest in a matter of minutes. So

26:28

what that means is that If

26:30

you're a female and you're either

26:32

pregnant or have young, your

26:34

priority is to make sure that

26:36

you eat well to produce milk or

26:38

that your cubs get to eat

26:40

well to survive. And the

26:42

only way they can do that is

26:45

through ensuring their own dominance, which

26:47

they do through aggression. So

26:49

you're selecting for exposure to

26:51

hormones that mediate aggression. And

26:53

what you might get as

26:55

a side effect is the

26:57

selection for all of the

27:00

things that androgens mediate, including

27:02

the differentiation of genitalia. So

27:04

while you might be selecting for androgens

27:06

because it gives you a benefit to

27:08

being dominant, you might get

27:11

as a side effect masculinized

27:13

female genitalia. And that could be

27:15

a reproductive cost that you

27:17

would bear in order to get

27:19

the benefit of getting a

27:21

seat at the table. So that

27:23

was the guiding model, and

27:25

what we did was we

27:28

blocked those androgens while females

27:30

were pregnant and saw that

27:32

it didn't majorly alter their

27:34

genital structures. It

27:36

reduced the sex difference between males

27:38

and females, but not to

27:40

the point that you didn't have

27:42

this pinaform structure in the

27:44

female. So what it was

27:46

suggesting instead was that there

27:48

was a genetic mechanism in addition

27:51

to an endocrine mechanism and

27:53

that those two mechanisms were working

27:55

together to produce this unusual

27:57

structure. Very interesting. Well, Christine,

27:59

I have to ask, how did you

28:01

celebrate when you started to uncover the

28:03

mysteries of one of these long unanswered

28:05

questions? I think... most

28:07

you go out and have a drink. We

28:09

may have gone to see the Lion

28:12

King and cheered for the hyenas. I

28:14

think we need to work harder on how

28:16

we celebrate these things. It

28:18

sounds like it. You've got time. You've got time. Start

28:20

to work on those parties and celebrations. Well,

28:23

you know, academia is all about delayed gratification,

28:25

right? You write a grant and you're all excited.

28:27

Oh, this is great, but you don't find

28:29

out for six months to a year, whether

28:31

or not you're going to get the money.

28:33

And if you do, you're like, Oh, well, that's

28:35

good. It's so

28:37

delayed from the initial submission that it

28:39

kind of loses its appeal. And I

28:41

think that you have to get used

28:43

to delayed gratification. Absolutely. I think

28:45

it helps maybe reduce the sting, though, when you

28:47

get those rejections, you're like, I've moved on

28:50

mentally anyway. So yeah, so

28:52

what we do in my lab is we

28:54

celebrate submissions. Oh, cool. How do

28:56

you celebrate? Well, We have

28:58

a little lab party and champagne,

29:00

nice food. Mark the moment. Then

29:03

regardless of the outcome, you've at least

29:05

enjoyed one moment. It's all part of

29:07

the process, of course. Yeah.

29:09

Well, Christine, thank you so much for talking

29:11

about one of these exciting successes and

29:13

how you celebrate the successes in your laboratory.

29:16

And I'd love to jump outside of the world of

29:18

science for just a moment here to talk a

29:20

little bit about what you are reading. We love getting

29:22

book recommendations from everybody we have on our show.

29:24

So do you have a particular book that you've enjoyed,

29:26

whether it's a science book or a non -science book,

29:28

that you can share with me at our listeners

29:30

today? Now you're going to see the

29:32

real sad truth, which is that I'm

29:35

so busy reading academic material that I just

29:37

don't have much time for reading for

29:39

fun. It can be an old book, too,

29:41

if you have one that you liked

29:43

when you were younger. I liked

29:45

the prayer for Owen Mimi. I just

29:47

liked the story about this little boy who had

29:49

so many challenges in life and how he

29:51

overcame them and how he impacted the people around

29:53

him. Well, Christine, we will add a prayer

29:55

for Owen Meemate to our reading list on our

29:57

website if our listeners are in search of

29:59

their next great book to read. And we've talked

30:01

about some of the different projects that you've

30:03

worked on over the course of your career and

30:05

sort of hinted at the fact that you

30:07

have a lot of opportunities to travel, to do

30:09

work in the field, and also to go

30:11

to conferences to share your work with other scientists.

30:13

And I think this is a great aspect

30:16

of the career that not everybody realizes is part

30:18

of it. So do you have a favorite

30:20

place that your science has taken you, Christine, that

30:22

you can tell me and our listeners about

30:24

today? I think I would

30:26

say Namibia holds a special place

30:28

in my heart. The travel I

30:30

did there for research on brown

30:32

hyenas in particular, as well as

30:34

a little bit on spotted hyenas

30:36

and assisting a colleague with some

30:39

lion and leopard work. It

30:41

was just a fabulous place to be. It's

30:43

a little bit the road less

30:46

traveled when it comes to the

30:48

safari destinations that people take. So

30:50

there's a lot fewer people,

30:52

which is particularly appealing to me.

30:54

I had a growing love

30:56

of deserts, which I hadn't necessarily

30:58

realized. But I guess given

31:00

that I was born in the

31:02

Sahara, it's not too unexpected. You've

31:05

come full circle, right? Yeah,

31:07

I've come full circle. A lot

31:09

of people think of deserts

31:11

as these barren wastelands. But the

31:13

fact that they're so inhospitable

31:15

and yet animals, plants, managed to

31:17

still eke out a living

31:19

there is pretty fascinating. And

31:21

I think there's just real

31:24

beauty in these large expanses that

31:26

are seemingly untouched. So I

31:28

had the privilege of working behind

31:30

the security lines of southern

31:32

Namibia in the Depeers Diamond

31:34

mines. So it's been an area

31:37

that has been closed off

31:39

to the public since Namibia's discovery

31:41

of their first diamonds, which

31:43

I think was in 1903 or

31:45

something like that. So

31:47

it's de facto the longest stretch

31:49

of protected coastline in the world.

31:52

So it just felt like a

31:54

real privilege to be able to

31:56

see a place that very few

31:58

people have seen, to be able

32:00

to appreciate the wildlife, the

32:03

fauna, flora of this

32:05

inhospitable place, the weather

32:07

is extreme, the terrain

32:09

is extreme. the closest

32:11

I think I'll ever get to

32:13

feeling like I'm walking on the

32:15

moon and it just has this

32:17

rawness and ruggedness about it that

32:20

I found very appealing seeing these

32:22

mainland seal breeding colonies that would

32:24

be visited by brown hyenas like

32:26

they're going down to a pumpkin

32:28

patch. It was just remarkable but

32:30

also it's a country that I

32:33

had the good fortune of visiting

32:35

pretty thoroughly. There are

32:37

still places I didn't get to

32:39

see but Domura land was

32:41

breathtaking and the Caprivy Strip was

32:43

very interesting. So getting to

32:45

spend a day hunter gathering with

32:47

the Sun Bushmen, just lots

32:50

of great memories. Well, Christine, it

32:52

sounds absolutely phenomenal. And

32:54

I think throughout our conversation, you've sort of hinted at

32:56

some of the wonderful people you've been able to work

32:58

with either in your laboratory or sort of over the

33:00

course of your career, the different mentors and advisors you

33:02

had. And I think the people are part of what

33:04

makes science great. And I think there are a lot

33:06

of stereotypes out there about what scientists are like. And

33:09

we try to break some of those on our show

33:11

by talking about some of the fun things that scientists

33:13

do when they're together or just some of the quirky

33:15

traditions that spring up or fun personalities that you get

33:17

to meet. So do you have a story of yours

33:19

that kind of shows this human side of science that

33:21

you can share with us today. Well,

33:23

I think part of the

33:25

people that you didn't mention are

33:27

my students. So not just

33:29

the people who have influenced me

33:32

as mentors, but the people

33:34

that I get to welcome into

33:36

my lab and see develop

33:38

over the course of however many

33:40

years that they're with me,

33:42

either as undergraduates, graduates, postdocs. I

33:44

think that's one of the

33:46

real strong points about being a

33:48

scientist is not just being

33:50

able to benefit from other people

33:52

during your own personal trajectory, but

33:55

being able to select the

33:57

people who will join your lab

34:00

and form a community, if

34:02

you will, of people with shared

34:04

interests, with whom you go

34:06

traveling to field sites, with whom

34:08

you do the research out

34:10

in the bush. or the desert

34:12

or the jungle or wherever

34:15

your project takes you. So I

34:17

think that part is really

34:19

influential and satisfying in a way

34:21

that being mentored and receiving

34:23

other people's insights is a great

34:25

privilege, but also being able

34:28

to influence others and help them

34:30

along their trajectory. That's also

34:32

one of the great benefits of

34:34

a career in academia or

34:36

in science. Definitely. And I understand

34:38

you've had some wonderful students come through the lab. Do

34:40

you have an example of a funny or maybe

34:42

an unexpected experience that you shared with students, whether it

34:45

was in the field or in the lab? Well,

34:47

I guess working in the Kalahari,

34:49

it was hard work. It was

34:51

day in, day out. And ultimately,

34:53

we managed to take a break

34:56

and with the members of my

34:58

team, and I was able to

35:00

take them to the Halahari on

35:02

a little excursion into Botswana for

35:04

our own little safari. So that

35:06

was fun. It's a nice bonding

35:08

experience. It's time away from work,

35:11

so it's well deserved just to

35:13

get to be tourists, if you

35:15

will. Oftentimes the travel, it

35:17

sounds great and it is great

35:19

and you go to faraway places,

35:21

but oftentimes you go to that

35:23

faraway place and that's where you

35:25

spend your entire time. So

35:28

it's maybe less exotic than people

35:30

might think. You've gone all this

35:32

way and literally you spend your

35:34

whole life in a couple square

35:37

kilometers. So yeah, those

35:39

breaks are few and far between, but

35:41

they're great when they happen and whether

35:43

you spot an animal that you hadn't

35:45

seen before or hadn't seen in a

35:47

while or you're just seeing them living

35:49

in a new, a different environment than

35:51

where you've seen them before. Lots

35:54

of good times associated with those

35:56

things. Definitely. Well, Christine, thanks so

35:58

much for sharing some of these travel experiences

36:00

because I think you're absolutely right. There are so

36:02

many memorable moments in the field, but it's

36:04

maybe not the same situation that you experience out

36:06

there in the field as a lot of

36:08

people imagine it would be. Like you said, you're

36:10

spending a lot of time in the one

36:12

place where your study is being conducted, collecting the

36:15

data, and trying to answer these big questions

36:17

that you're working on in the lab. And I

36:19

know there's often a lot of things that

36:21

prevent you from answering the questions you would love

36:23

to answer. So if things like funding and

36:25

technology and feasibility and all of these normal barriers

36:27

in science were not a problem, What is

36:29

the one question, Christine, that you are just dying

36:31

to know the answer to? I

36:34

think I felt like I didn't

36:36

get to do what I wanted

36:38

to do with the brown hyenas

36:40

in Namibia. It was

36:42

a timing thing, I think, between

36:44

having to establish myself in

36:46

an anthropology lab versus wanting to

36:48

do research that may not

36:50

have had an anthropological focus. So

36:53

I think continuing work with

36:55

Brown hyenas to ask questions that

36:57

I didn't really get to

36:59

ask or see to fruition. So

37:02

there's part of that need to want to finish

37:04

up what you started. I also

37:06

had the opportunity to work

37:08

on mandrels in Gebel. And

37:10

they are not at all a

37:12

female dominant species. And

37:15

so they were kind of

37:17

the exception to the rule.

37:19

And I think sometimes it's

37:21

really good to ground yourself

37:23

and study something completely different

37:26

to get things in perspective

37:28

and appreciate the diversity. So

37:30

do I have a particular species

37:32

that I would like to work on

37:34

for that? Maybe not necessarily off

37:37

the top of my head, but. There

37:39

are so many interesting critters out

37:41

there that going back to some of

37:43

the ones that I started to

37:45

work on but didn't really go as

37:47

far as I would have liked

37:49

to or some questions that remain unresolved

37:51

and still merit further investigation. Certainly.

37:54

Well, great to hear about some of these unanswered

37:56

questions, and I know I myself am quite the

37:58

completionist, so I can totally feel your pain here.

38:01

Having these questions that you want to answer and you're

38:03

at a point in your career where you need to

38:05

move on and work on other things. And I think

38:07

there's a lot of great advice that you receive over

38:09

the course of your career from different sources, Christine. So

38:11

is there a piece of advice that you received that

38:13

really helped you that you can share with me and

38:15

our listeners today? I guess one

38:17

of the best pieces of advice

38:19

that I received is to listen to

38:21

the data. I think there are

38:23

perhaps too many people who might have

38:25

agendas in terms of what they

38:28

want to find, in terms of what

38:30

fits the story that they've been

38:32

pursuing for a long time. But

38:34

I think that the interesting

38:36

findings really come from letting the

38:38

data answer the questions and

38:40

listening to what the results are

38:43

telling you, as opposed to

38:45

trying to put a spin on

38:47

things. I think that's great advice.

38:49

I think that's one of the challenges as a

38:51

scientist because you go in oftentimes with hypotheses

38:53

and you have these ideas preconceived about how things

38:55

might be working and it's difficult not to

38:57

just sort of fit the data into your already

38:59

preconceived ideas of how a system should work. Yeah,

39:03

academia is becoming more of a

39:05

business model, which I have

39:07

found to be very disappointing in

39:09

all honesty. The whole

39:11

pressure to get grant money,

39:13

the pressure to publish in

39:16

high -profile journals, Some

39:18

people might think that it's having

39:20

a good effect. I'm not

39:22

one of those people. I think

39:24

it actually hinders some of

39:26

the creativity and pursuit of intellectual

39:28

questions for their own merit.

39:30

There's a push to follow the

39:32

money. Someone makes a

39:34

discovery and it's all exciting and

39:36

so then everybody follows that

39:38

for a while until something changes

39:40

and they start veering off

39:42

in another direction. And I think

39:44

just being true to the

39:46

questions that are of interest to

39:48

you, sometimes it can be

39:50

hard to maintain that in this

39:52

new business model of academia.

39:54

And I think that in some

39:57

ways that's related to also

39:59

how you interpret. I

40:01

think conservative interpretations tend to

40:03

be truer and the

40:05

push is to maybe overstate

40:07

some things at times,

40:09

not to get too negative,

40:11

but academia was about

40:13

freedom of intellectual pursuit and

40:15

I think some of

40:17

that is being lost. I

40:20

think you brought up some really important points

40:22

here and you're certainly not alone in having these

40:24

struggles and I think you provided some really

40:26

great advice to follow that data, follow those questions

40:28

that you're pursuing rather than being distracted by

40:30

all the shiny objects that are coming up here.

40:32

So do you have any other last piece of advice

40:34

or a last message of inspiration that you want

40:37

to share with our listeners at the end of our

40:39

call here today? I guess

40:41

to be fearless and resolute

40:43

in pursuing your dreams because

40:45

it does take passion, it

40:47

takes dedication, and it takes

40:49

resolve at times and to

40:51

not lose sight of that

40:53

in a field that can

40:55

be laden with delayed gratification.

40:58

Well, Christine, wonderful note to end our interview on

41:00

today. And I think such an important message for

41:02

our listeners out there. And we really appreciate you

41:04

sharing your time and your insights with us. And

41:06

if our listeners want to learn more about you

41:09

and the wonderful work that you do, where should

41:11

they go or how should they get in touch? Well,

41:14

if they had direct

41:16

questions, they could email me

41:18

at CDREA at duke .edu

41:20

or if they're more

41:22

interested just in learning more

41:24

about research and publications

41:26

and the lot. They could

41:28

visit my website, which

41:30

is Draylab at Weebly, I

41:32

think, something like that. You've

41:34

got lots of great pictures of lemurs and

41:37

hyenas and stuff on there as well, which

41:39

are fabulous listeners. And meerkats, yeah. And meerkats,

41:41

yeah. And lab members. We

41:43

can't forget them. And lab members. Now

41:45

it would definitely not exist without the lab

41:47

members. It takes a village. That's

41:49

right. Well, listeners, definitely check out that website.

41:52

Get in touch with Christine if you have any

41:54

questions. And Christine, it's been such

41:56

a pleasure to chat with you today. Thank

41:58

you for joining us on the show. Likewise.

42:00

Thank you for having me. And listeners, wonderful

42:02

to have you with us here as well

42:04

today. We'll see you next time on another

42:06

episode of People Behind the Science.