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1:25

Hey, it's Ralph here. Let me

1:27

tell you about a lifestyle brand

1:30

that we recently worked with where

1:32

they grew their revenue by 49.8%

1:34

year over year and hit eight

1:37

figures in top line revenue for

1:39

the very first time in their

1:41

history. And they are now on

1:43

track for 25 million in revenue.

1:46

in 2025. We're so excited to

1:48

be working with this company. And

1:50

the reason why is they started

1:52

using Tier 11 Data Suite about

1:55

a year ago. It reduced

1:57

their unattributed traffic by 90%.

2:00

right. They're unattributed, direct, unknown

2:02

traffic that probably frustrates the

2:05

hell out of you over

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in GA4 or one of

2:10

those other crappy attribution tools.

2:12

We reduced that unattributed traffic

2:14

by 90% uncovered $850,000 in

2:17

hidden revenue and scaled their

2:19

ad spend by over 3X.

2:22

These results are not magic.

2:24

The results of clean, accurate

2:27

data and a system designed

2:29

for today's privacy world where

2:32

everybody is trying to block

2:34

your data. If you want

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to see these kinds of

2:39

results for your business. reach

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out and let's make it

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happen over at tour11.com/apply and

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discover how tour 11 data

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suite can finally allow you

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to scale your business acquiring

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new customers at a cost

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over to tier11.com/apply. Hello

3:01

and welcome to the perpetual traffic

3:03

podcast. This is your host Ralph

3:05

Burns, founder and CEO of Tier

3:07

11, not alongside my amazing co-host

3:10

Lauren E. Petrullo. She is sending

3:12

herself on some beach somewhere in

3:14

the South Caribbean island of... I

3:16

don't even know where she is

3:18

actually. But she's traveling somewhere. So

3:20

anyway, so it's just me. And

3:22

our VP of HR, let's, wait

3:25

a second, that's just so, so

3:27

boring. I'm gonna give you all

3:29

your titles right here. VP of

3:31

thriving people. HR 47, or HR

3:33

47, we'll get to that in

3:35

just a second, why? And VP

3:37

of team member success, VP of

3:39

people and culture, but basically. our

3:42

H.R. guy, Josh Hill, coming back

3:44

for episode two on How to

3:46

Hire, absolute rock star superstars, putting

3:48

your over-year... corporate expression there. Welcome

3:50

back to perpetual traffic. Thanks. I'm

3:52

glad to be back and I

3:54

feel like I've just been knighted

3:57

with all these BS titles that

3:59

now people want to use. My

4:01

favorite one is H.R. 47. Can

4:03

you explain that one as to

4:05

why that is? Well, I think

4:07

it's a blend of the military

4:09

background, the AK-47 being a rifle

4:11

and the hiring. of candidates, so

4:14

I think like sniping the right

4:16

candidate, sniping the right people for

4:18

the job. It's lame. I didn't

4:20

give it myself all right, so

4:22

that was not self acclaimed. You

4:24

know, it was a lot funnier

4:26

when we sort of mentioned it

4:29

internally now that I'm sort of

4:31

talking about it live on a

4:33

podcast. It's not quite as funny.

4:35

But anyway, we are going to

4:37

help you snipe the ideal employee,

4:39

the ideal worker, the ideal team

4:41

member for your business and give

4:43

you some of the insights here

4:46

because we've been doing this for

4:48

quite sometimes or all kidding aside.

4:50

as we talked about Josh obviously

4:52

has a military background. He was

4:54

a captain in the military, the

4:56

Australian military, had a lot of

4:58

experience. We snatched him out of

5:01

all that bureaucracy and brought him

5:03

over to Tier 11. where you

5:05

actually start off as a media

5:07

buyer and then ascend it through

5:09

the ranks, senior media buyer, and

5:11

obviously HR and people development is

5:13

something that you're deeply passionate about

5:15

and quite good at, might I

5:18

add? And you inherited a system

5:20

where we had like an eight-step

5:22

process of hiring people, which in

5:24

essence we still kind of do

5:26

have, but you've made modifications to

5:28

it. So in episode one, We

5:30

did talk about the accountability chart,

5:33

how to source candidates to a

5:35

certain degree, the importance of establishing

5:37

your core values in order to

5:39

sort of create that character diamond,

5:41

and that's changed over time, your

5:43

core values as you evolve as

5:45

an organization. This is something when

5:47

I spoke at a conference this

5:50

past weekend, Josh, and I mentioned

5:52

this. I was

5:54

like, this is

5:56

something that everybody

5:58

misses. They always

6:00

miss the core

6:02

values. To

6:05

summarize what we talked about back in

6:07

episode one for this or step one

6:09

or part one, was that we took

6:11

our best employee, our best worker, me

6:13

and two or three of the other

6:15

guys that were in the leadership

6:17

team at that point in time. We

6:19

just wrote down every one of their

6:21

core characteristics and the type of individual

6:23

that we want to basically clone and

6:26

bring to tier 11. As a result

6:28

of that, we then created a

6:30

list. We boiled it down to three

6:32

or four characteristics, which became our core

6:34

values. I think you start there. Go

6:36

back and listen to that episode. Obviously,

6:38

that's a super important one. If you

6:40

don't have core values, it's not

6:42

just something that you just post up

6:45

on the wall and then forget about.

6:47

Something that you live and breathe. We

6:49

actually have a channel devoted to it

6:51

inside Slack for that. That's step one.

6:53

Step two is then sourcing candidates.

6:55

This is one of the things I

6:57

think a lot of people still ask

6:59

me about. The best place to source

7:01

candidates we've found that we still do

7:04

look for is on LinkedIn. I

7:06

know we talked about it just a

7:08

bit, but is there anything since we

7:10

recorded that first episode that you want

7:12

to tell the audience about that you've

7:14

learned through using that platform? Because no

7:16

matter what, your candidate is probably

7:18

there at some point in time during

7:20

their week or during their month. What's

7:23

your big tip there with LinkedIn? There's

7:26

a few different variables and a few

7:28

different things that need to be considered depending

7:30

on what sourcing platform you use. I

7:32

think with LinkedIn specifically, compared

7:34

to job boards, which are more

7:36

passive, candidates are coming to you,

7:38

with LinkedIn, you're reaching out. You're

7:41

disrupting someone's momentum at their own

7:43

workplace. You're attempting to capture their

7:45

attention with an opportunity. Really, the

7:47

messaging and the outreach, that's where

7:49

the magic is. I think even

7:51

preliminary to that, you need to

7:53

figure out how to search and

7:56

find your candidate on LinkedIn to

7:58

begin with. There's ways

8:00

to do that. You can just look

8:02

through the actual search function that LinkedIn

8:04

has natively. You can use that to

8:07

identify competitor companies or similar companies and

8:09

then filter by people. So you can

8:11

do more of like a cost-free search

8:13

to identify personnel or you can subscribe

8:15

to a LinkedIn recruiter which costs I

8:18

think it's like a couple hundred

8:20

bucks a month. That's really good because it's

8:22

like LinkedIn search on steroids. So you can

8:24

really add additional criteria to get to the

8:27

higher quality or at least the people that

8:29

are going to fit your description or your

8:31

ideal candidate profile much quicker and then you

8:34

reach out to them by those means. And

8:36

then it's all like I said before

8:38

it's all in the the outreach, the way

8:40

you message, the way you paint the opportunity,

8:43

pitch it as a challenge, make sure it's a

8:45

career move for them and that's really just

8:48

kicking off the initial discussions. But

8:50

once you've got their interest what

8:52

we usually do is then we

8:54

direct them straight from LinkedIn to

8:56

a discovery call. before we even

8:58

go to an application process. And the

9:01

reason for doing that is when you're

9:03

specifically targeting someone on LinkedIn, a lot

9:05

of the time, like I mentioned before,

9:07

it's, you're disrupting them. So I'm not

9:10

gonna disrupt someone and then put extra

9:12

work on their play and say, hey,

9:14

we've got this massive opportunity. By the

9:16

way, can you fill out this 10-minute

9:19

form and do this and do that?

9:21

They can I? And then do this

9:23

simulation and this other task over

9:25

here. They're going to be. Don't overreach

9:27

initially with the ask. Make sure you're

9:30

identifying in the ballpark of the right person

9:32

that you believe would be the good fit.

9:34

And then treat them like a candidate in

9:36

a sales process. Make the barriers, reduce the

9:39

barriers to them getting to understand and

9:41

be aligned to the vision you have

9:43

for your company and the potential opportunities

9:45

in the role. Whatever benefits the

9:48

role comes with likely for them as

9:50

a career focused individual, provided you really

9:52

looking for your players. and deliver that

9:54

information on a face-to-face discovery call

9:56

where it's as much about you

9:58

selling the opportunity. of the role and

10:01

the job and the company as it

10:03

is you understanding their likely fit and

10:05

their ambitions and it's really like a

10:07

bolt adjust right like if here we

10:09

go at 8k 47 analogy right if

10:11

I take it taking 8k 47 to

10:14

a range a firing range and I

10:16

just start blading off rounds at a

10:18

target without zeroing in the rifle my

10:20

rounds are going to go everywhere I'm

10:22

going to waste ammunition I'm going to

10:24

waste time and energy So what I

10:26

want to do is I want to

10:29

adjust the bolt of the rifle first,

10:31

I want to zero it in properly

10:33

so that my shots after that are

10:35

much more accurate and precise. And that's

10:37

really what we do with the discovery

10:39

call. We're zeroing in, identifying if the

10:41

candidates likely the right fit. If they're

10:44

not, we move on to the next

10:46

one and we move on to the

10:48

next one. As opposed to going through

10:50

the entire rigmarole with lots and lots

10:52

of candidates, which will get to other

10:54

ways now of like how to further

10:57

ways now of like how to further

10:59

save time in a screening time in

11:01

a screening, The balance between a screening

11:03

process and whether it's LinkedIn or hiring

11:05

in general is all about how do

11:07

you make the best use of your

11:09

hiring resources, the actual HR teams that

11:12

you have, or the hiring manager's time,

11:14

which could be regular line managers, how

11:16

do you manage their time and the

11:18

resources, versus the sheer quantity of candidates

11:20

that you want to put in front

11:22

of them, and also the quality. increasing

11:24

the likelihood of you being able to

11:27

get the right person in the right

11:29

seat. So it's a balance between those

11:31

two and often you need to come

11:33

up with a nuanced way of how

11:35

you leverage automation, AI, tools, your people's

11:37

time to not over analyze people but

11:40

just analyze people enough and just let

11:42

enough people get in front of the

11:44

right people to assess them so that

11:46

you can get high quality when you

11:48

actually go to higher. So there's some

11:50

nuance there which we can get into.

11:52

Yeah, I'm going to interrupt you there

11:55

because I think what you just mentioned

11:57

there is actually really important because one

11:59

of the questions that when I presented

12:01

this part of this presentation this past

12:03

weekend is like does everybody go through

12:05

a simulator and an and all these

12:07

other sorts of things, it depends. And

12:10

I think with, for example, for our

12:12

CSOs, our client success owners, which are

12:14

incredibly important at tour 11, not to

12:16

minimize any other hires that we make,

12:18

but these are client facing. There's usually

12:20

higher paid individuals, you know, have experience,

12:23

you know, high amount of EIQ. These

12:25

are not the types of people that

12:27

are probably, if they are working somewhere,

12:29

they're not looking, they're not going to

12:31

fill out an application. Or maybe like,

12:33

if you were looking for, you know,

12:35

a new VP of sales or a

12:38

VP of operations, these are higher level

12:40

people, like you need to have that

12:42

personal touch point and also care because

12:44

they don't know who you are. Like

12:46

you have to sell them on you

12:48

and your, don't be so high and

12:50

mighty to think that, oh, everyone wants

12:53

to work for my company. That's not

12:55

true because nobody really cares about you.

12:57

They really only care about themselves and

12:59

what you can do for them. And

13:01

if what you can do for them

13:03

also matches what they can do for

13:05

you, then there's a match. And at

13:08

the end of the day, that really

13:10

is a great hire. So I think

13:12

you bring up an important point here

13:14

is it isn't like a cattle call

13:16

for an application. Like for some of

13:18

our positions that may be the case.

13:21

However, for sort of a selected group

13:23

of middle to upper management, you want

13:25

to do what you're talking about and

13:27

you're extraordinarily good at this because I've

13:29

talked to people who have either gone

13:31

through the process and didn't get hired

13:33

by Tier 11 or did get hired.

13:36

If they didn't get hired, they still

13:38

have a very positive impression of cheer

13:40

11 because of your outreach and the

13:42

care that you make. And this stuff

13:44

takes time. This is the reason why

13:46

this is your full-time job. And if

13:48

you're a solo perner and you're making

13:51

your first hire here, I would encourage

13:53

you to do it this way. Yeah.

13:55

Because that first hire is your most

13:57

important hire. And whether it's your first.

13:59

or your hundredth, every hire is important.

14:01

However, you gotta get this right, you

14:04

gotta sort of get the rhythm of

14:06

it, and I think LinkedIn is a

14:08

great place to interrupt people, and I

14:10

don't even know what your hit rate

14:12

is with some of these. I would

14:14

imagine it's fairly low, even with really

14:16

good outreach, but you have to be

14:19

constantly mindful of fact, you're selling the

14:21

opportunity as much as they're trying to

14:23

sell you on them. Yeah, for sure.

14:25

I'm actually pretty surprised with the. response

14:27

rates on LinkedIn to be honest. What's

14:29

incredibly obvious is the difference in responses

14:31

you can get depending on how you

14:34

craft the outreach and it is very

14:36

largely dependent as well on the type

14:38

of person that you're looking to hire.

14:40

You know I think to your point

14:42

there's specific roles that you know what

14:44

my emphasis on job boards for this

14:47

role is like so low because it's

14:49

a very nuanced position or it's managerial

14:51

or even executive. Those guys and girls

14:53

are not I mean, they're on job

14:55

boards, but they know people who know

14:57

people who they got networks, they're connected,

14:59

they're hardworking individuals that are just getting

15:02

shit done. They're not going to be

15:04

scaring job boards applying for lots and

15:06

lots and lots of jobs. So that's

15:08

when it becomes even more important to

15:10

craft communication that is like, whoa, okay,

15:12

this is a pretty cool opportunity. These

15:14

guys are super transparent. They've got a

15:17

clear vision. They're trying to make an

15:19

impact and this is a pretty sexy

15:21

looking opportunity. Yeah, I'm interested. Okay, great.

15:23

Let's get on a call. 15 minute

15:25

chat. I just want to get your

15:27

time while I have a chat and

15:30

we get on the call. You lead

15:32

with, you know, it's the basics of

15:34

how you interact with any sort of

15:36

candidate in any sort of sales process.

15:38

I mean, it's about discovery. It's about

15:40

learning their pain points in their current

15:42

position and their needs as a human,

15:45

what their aspirations are, their ambitions, and

15:47

if it's not a good match. we're

15:49

completely transparent with that. We're like, okay,

15:51

that's not actually what we're looking for

15:53

right now. It is a good match.

15:55

It's like, let's double down. This is

15:57

great. Let's continue the process. And from

16:00

there, we might even have another call.

16:02

And then it's like, okay, how about

16:04

we start putting a bit more on

16:06

your plate now? Let's look at maybe

16:08

a simulation task or let's get you

16:10

to apply and answer some questions. Let's

16:13

dig a bit deeper. And by that

16:15

stage, you've got the trust and the

16:17

interest so that they're willing to go

16:19

through those hurdles through those hurdles out

16:21

of their busy day. and commit to

16:23

a more comprehensive assessment as opposed to

16:25

just being up front and pushing a

16:28

lot of candidates away, which is what

16:30

we used to do. We used to potentially push

16:32

people away because we would ask for too

16:34

much up front and it just isn't

16:36

realistic. You don't go on a date

16:38

with anyone and then instantly start asking

16:40

them for their hand or ridiculous requests,

16:42

right? It's like you need to take

16:44

it slow and be mindful and respectful

16:46

of people's time. So there is an element

16:49

to this where you're sniping. That's where

16:51

the HR 47 comes from. And

16:53

by the way, we did once

16:55

go to an archery range and

16:57

you got like 19 bullseyes and

16:59

I don't think I even hit

17:01

the target. So you are actually

17:03

a really good marksman slash archer.

17:05

The point is, and you can't

17:07

snipe, you can not only snipe

17:09

when it comes to bow and

17:11

arrow and weapons, but also when

17:13

it comes to this sort of

17:16

stuff. What you are describing

17:18

here is a little bit

17:20

more bespoke way in which

17:22

to entice candidates to become

17:24

interested in you. And that does

17:26

take time. Yes, but let's talk

17:29

about the other side too and

17:31

this is the thing that whenever

17:33

I talk about our hiring process

17:35

I use like a media buyer

17:37

as an example because there is

17:39

an application process. Maybe in some

17:41

cases you are reaching out to

17:44

select people maybe if they're senior

17:46

media buyer maybe they're traffic strategist

17:48

or some sort of higher level

17:50

or maybe even not that we

17:52

have the opening but like director

17:54

of media buying obviously, You

17:56

know, we just hired an incredible

17:59

creative design. Like, he came in

18:01

through hundreds of applications, correct me

18:03

if among them. Let's talk about

18:05

that process and what that looks

18:07

like as well. Perfect. Definitely, yeah,

18:09

it's definitely important to segregate both

18:11

of them because they do both

18:13

have their more tailored approaches. I

18:15

think with LinkedIn, right, it's it

18:17

is much more sniping in the

18:19

sense that we are going out

18:21

and we are funneling ourselves through

18:23

our own research and our own...

18:25

I mean, with LinkedIn, for example,

18:27

the tools and the systems that

18:29

they have, we're doing our own

18:31

sniping and finding those select few

18:34

people and then going after them.

18:36

Sniping in the other sense is

18:38

more about, how do you cast

18:40

a wide net and then funnel

18:42

that net down to, and I

18:44

guess that's sniping in a sense,

18:46

right? I mean, you're really trying

18:48

to funnel the focus down to

18:50

the top layer of key individuals.

18:52

And again, what I was saying

18:54

earlier with regards to that balance

18:56

of resource versus quality HR resource,

18:58

the wider you cast that wider

19:00

you cast that net. and the

19:02

more you can funnel down to

19:04

the cream, like the best of

19:06

the best, it's going to make

19:08

more efficient use of the HR

19:10

resources you have, the more funneling

19:12

and screening and concentration you can

19:14

implement in your recruitment process up

19:16

front. And the way we do

19:18

that at Tier 11 is through

19:20

a HR applicant tracking system. It's

19:23

called Jazz HR, HR, but there's

19:25

plenty of them available. And a

19:27

systemized HR is what you say.

19:29

Jazz HR. With that Aussie accent

19:31

sometimes people are like what the

19:33

heck did he just say? I

19:35

feel like sometimes with John Moran

19:37

I need to translate with you

19:39

I actually do need to translate

19:41

on the next screen. Yeah that's

19:43

so what I was going to

19:45

say. So it's Jazz HR that's

19:47

the software. H-R- sorry I mispronounced

19:49

that H-R. So anyway so talk

19:51

about that like what makes that

19:53

good and or... any other of

19:55

its analogs and competitors that are

19:57

out there, what does it allow

19:59

you to do? Right, so when

20:01

it comes to the heavy lifting...

20:03

of sorting through a lot of

20:05

applicants, which is commonly the case.

20:07

We have some jobs that we've

20:09

advertised for where we've had 1,000

20:12

plus applications and candidates to sift

20:14

through. And when you've got a

20:16

HR team of one to two

20:18

people, even three people, it's a

20:20

lot. And when we are aligned

20:22

to the fact that hiring is

20:24

one of the most important functions

20:26

in business and you want to

20:28

get the best people in. You

20:30

want to get the best fits

20:32

in. You can't. take the risk

20:34

of spreading your resources too thin

20:36

and doing an average job across

20:38

a thousand candidates. So we rely

20:40

on a platform like Jazz to

20:42

do a lot of that initial

20:44

screening for us through automation, which

20:46

has been a game changer because

20:48

what it's allowed is through their

20:50

functionality, it's called knockout questions, you

20:52

can stipulate questions in the application

20:54

process that put the candidate into

20:56

a different bucket that you can

20:59

look at later, but it basically

21:01

deprioritizes that candidate based on your

21:03

criteria. And the criteria can be

21:05

as rudimentary as we need people

21:07

in this certain geographic location. So

21:09

the question in the application would

21:11

be, are you from X country,

21:13

or will you be working from

21:15

X location? If they select a

21:17

location that doesn't match with the

21:19

intention of what we're looking to

21:21

hire for, which we would have

21:23

also put in the job application

21:25

as well, but it puts them

21:27

in a bucket. And through the

21:29

advent of these questions, you can

21:31

stack them. You can stack these

21:33

questions and then have five, ten,

21:35

even more questions that do the

21:37

sifting. So you might take a

21:39

funnel, a pipeline of a thousand

21:41

candidates and then have a refined

21:43

list of say 200 that you

21:45

then have the HR resource to

21:48

more feasibly go through with more

21:50

intention and vigor. And that's simply

21:52

just the grassroots number one. sifting

21:54

that every company should be doing,

21:56

otherwise you're spreading your resources too

21:58

thin and you're looking at applicants

22:00

that would never be considered in

22:02

the first place. That's a staple

22:04

of the hiring process. and there's

22:06

pros and cons to that. I

22:08

think that if you liken it

22:10

to an analogy of panning for

22:12

gold, right, you've got a thousand

22:14

candidates in a pan, you've got

22:16

a lot of sediment in the

22:18

pan. If you swirl it around

22:20

really, really aggressive, i.e. if you

22:22

set those knockout questions to being

22:24

very aggressive, you're going to really

22:26

thin out the sediment. You're going

22:28

to throw out gold. It's going

22:30

to happen. There's going to be

22:32

collateral, but this is the balance.

22:35

How aggressively do you swirl determines

22:37

how much resources you have internally

22:39

in your business to actually do

22:41

the swirling? If you've got one

22:43

person, you may have to be

22:45

aggressive to whittle that list down

22:47

to say 50 to 100 people.

22:49

If you've got four, five, six

22:51

solid HR team, you might not

22:53

even need to have knockout questions

22:55

or at least have very light

22:57

questions that do just the rudimentary

22:59

sorting. That is a spectrum of

23:01

like how aggressive you want to

23:03

pan for the gold. And once

23:05

you are comfortable with the panning

23:07

and the quality that you've got

23:09

that's left over, then you start

23:11

the subsequent process of how to

23:13

actually sort through the candidates. But

23:15

that's kind of the initial screening

23:17

through JazzH. Yeah. So country origin,

23:19

for example, we do a fair

23:21

amount of recruiting in Latin America.

23:24

So I mean, obviously, like, where

23:26

do you live? Even though you're

23:28

probably putting ads in those geo

23:30

locations, there is stuff that's always

23:32

going to sort of flow through

23:34

no matter what. So there is

23:36

that. And then there is, usually

23:38

there's like a continuum of, there's

23:40

maybe a location type question would

23:42

either prioritize or deprioritize them to

23:44

a certain degree. And then there's

23:46

usually some level of competency question.

23:48

Yes. Because when you're looking for,

23:50

and let's just take, media buyer

23:52

as an example, there needs to

23:54

be some kind of filter there

23:56

based upon the job. If it's

23:58

an MB1, which is sort of

24:00

our entry level, the answer to

24:02

that question is going to be

24:04

quite different than an MB3, which

24:06

is very higher level. So how

24:08

do you stack these questions? And

24:10

typically, when you're trying to source

24:13

candidates from sort of front, what

24:15

I say, frontline employees, people that

24:17

are doing the work itself, how

24:19

many of these knockout questions do

24:21

you typically have? one to three

24:23

three to five like what's your

24:25

sense does it vary like give

24:27

us an idea there yeah this

24:29

is good because this is now getting

24:31

into the real tailored aspect of how

24:33

to sort effectively I'd say on average

24:36

I mean you may have like five

24:38

it depends on the business it all

24:40

depends right but on average I'd say

24:43

you have maybe five rudimentary questions anything

24:45

from location to arrangement are you looking

24:47

for a contract or employee arrangement

24:49

how many hours can you do

24:51

it's just stuff that's just simple

24:53

and yes and no kind of very

24:55

simplistic stuff. So you might have like

24:58

five of those. Yeah, it's like an

25:00

absolute must. Right. If they don't

25:02

have this, there's no way they could

25:04

come on board. Exactly. Those are the

25:07

types of questions. You might be listening

25:09

to this and you're not an agency.

25:11

Great. I might be an e-com. business

25:13

or service-based business, digital products, whatever your

25:16

business is, what are the characteristics that

25:18

you're looking for? You know, if you're

25:20

looking for a programmer, you need a

25:23

certain level of competency based upon what

25:25

that programmer is going to do. So think

25:27

about those things first and foremost. It sounds

25:29

like common sense, but this is actually super

25:31

important. Otherwise you are chasing your tail for

25:34

a thousand applicants and some cases. It really

25:36

can waste a lot of time. Here's the

25:38

thing though. When you're filtering out for these

25:40

type of these type of questions. This

25:42

is where you have the highest propensity

25:45

to get rid of sediment out of

25:47

the pan with big chunks of gold.

25:49

You may have a really ideal candidate

25:52

for a job, but they simply want

25:54

a contractor instead of an employee relationship

25:56

engagement. You might have a really solid candidate

25:59

for a job. for your company, but

26:01

they can only do part-time instead of

26:03

full-time right now. And you're putting those

26:05

people aside into a bucket and deprioritizing

26:08

them. So one caveat to all of

26:10

this is... You're not throwing them out

26:12

by the way. You're not throwing them

26:14

out. You're just deprioritizing them, which is,

26:17

you know, like jazz, using the term

26:19

knockout, I feel like that's a bit

26:21

aggressive with. when really what you're doing.

26:23

It's very important to keep in the

26:26

back of your mind, you used to

26:28

do back in the Australian military, knock

26:30

guys, but it's deep prioritizing because you

26:33

might need them later on, you never

26:35

know. Okay. Here's what we found with

26:37

this, and we'll get into the other

26:39

side of the different types of questions

26:42

to ask as well in this knockout

26:44

process, but when you knock, when you

26:46

deprioritize anyone to get to a more

26:48

focused list, it's very important to keep

26:51

in the back of your mind. that

26:53

you are likely and you probably should

26:55

go and revisit that list. And JazzH.R.

26:58

has a functionality where you can actually,

27:00

after the fact, you can apply filters

27:02

to that deprioritized list to surface more

27:04

people. So when you're panning for the

27:07

sediment, you're actually not just throwing it

27:09

out. You're putting it in a separate

27:11

bucket that you can then pan again

27:13

later and then you can pan again

27:16

later. So this first pass is really

27:18

just, let's get a thousand people. down

27:20

to 200, let's see what we got.

27:23

Okay, we swelled too aggressively. We went

27:25

through these 200 people, we need some

27:27

more. Let's go back into the bucket.

27:29

Okay, we found a really good candidate

27:32

and they got knocked out because they

27:34

said that they wanted to be a

27:36

contractor instead of an employee. Let's just

27:38

get on a call them, let's see

27:41

why that is. Maybe there's a chance

27:43

for a negotiation. So really it's the

27:45

process that you start off strong and

27:48

then you graduate to a wider and

27:50

wider and wider pool. because you've got

27:52

the luxury of being able to do

27:54

that with this process with this system.

27:57

So again it's about focusing your HR

27:59

resource on the highest likelihood of finding

28:01

gold and then you can open up

28:04

the space from there and you can

28:06

open up and you can open. up

28:08

and you can open up all the

28:10

while you're getting new candidates in and

28:13

it's kind of like this dial that

28:15

you can turn up and you can

28:17

turn down depending on the quality that

28:19

you're finding in the talent pool at

28:22

any one time and you may do

28:24

this mid-process you might do this at

28:26

the start at the end it's completely

28:29

up to you depending on what you're

28:31

seeing. So we have the the rudimentary

28:33

questions which are very straightforward basic you

28:35

will test and adjust them and that

28:38

will be your primary method of filtering

28:40

out the most obvious people that aren't

28:42

fits and then to your with regards

28:44

to different levels of different roles, the

28:47

nuance between different positions. For example, you've

28:49

stated a media buyer one, like a

28:51

very junior media buyer, we will have

28:54

different expectations on their experience and how

28:56

they are expected to perform in the

28:58

agency and their level of competency, their

29:00

ability, even their behavior, there's certain aspects

29:03

that will be different to that of

29:05

a senior media buyer or even a

29:07

manager or an executive. So, Separate to

29:09

the rudimentary knockout questions, we've got other

29:12

knockout questions which are more nuanced to

29:14

the role and the level, which are

29:16

radio button-esque questions, so it'll be a

29:19

question such as describe your experience working

29:21

in a digital marketing agency, and then

29:23

there'll be radio buttons that have predetermined

29:25

answers. For example, no experience, some experience,

29:28

a lot of experience. And each of

29:30

those answers will have a little paragraph

29:32

associated with it as well to paint

29:34

the picture of what that observably, what

29:37

that looks like, so that the candidate,

29:39

when answering that question in their mind,

29:41

can associate their experience to one of

29:44

those entries. So it's not, what we're

29:46

trying to avoid here with these questions

29:48

is subjective, bias-prone, rate yourself questions that

29:50

we're asking Canada, rate yourself on your

29:53

experience of this role or this and

29:55

that. out of one to ten, they

29:57

may say, oh I am eight. So

29:59

okay, well that's so arbitrary, that's subjective,

30:02

what does that even mean? So we...

30:04

Reformat that question to be more experience

30:06

focus and then yeah, we've seen some

30:09

great success with that Obviously people will

30:11

no doubt still inflate and inject bias,

30:13

but we're trying to avoid that and

30:15

reduce that and you may have five

30:18

of these radio buttons All the way

30:20

from absolutely no experience to absolute a

30:22

player gun like I've been doing this

30:24

for so long. This is and how

30:27

it looks like and you may have

30:29

two to three or even most of

30:31

those questions as knockout So unless a

30:34

candidate asks the most, you know, maybe

30:36

four or four and five out of

30:38

five questions, they're not going to get

30:40

through to the next stage. So again,

30:43

you can dial that. We may see

30:45

that's too aggressive that question. So we

30:47

may actually allow some experience to enter

30:49

through and only exclude the no experience.

30:52

So again, you've got to dial within

30:54

a dial, and that's kind of how

30:56

you manipulate the quality that you get

30:59

through, or at least the self-perceive quality,

31:01

because they're answering their own questions. complement

31:03

to the rudimentary because that's again how

31:05

you get a list from 1000 to

31:08

200 it's like you got to be

31:10

asking these tough polarizing questions up front

31:12

otherwise you can have too many people

31:14

that you need to work through. Yeah

31:17

so before this before the onset of

31:19

an HR software I went back I

31:21

explained this how we were doing this

31:24

in 2015 and it was literally a

31:26

gravity form or it was a type

31:28

form that then was zapped into trello

31:30

into a board. And that's literally how

31:33

we took these out, like we had

31:35

an application and then there was a

31:37

score that was assigned to it and

31:40

then if they got an 80 or

31:42

above it was zapped into trello or

31:44

they were basically discarded and we don't

31:46

really didn't know where they went. But

31:49

it was the same kind of thing.

31:51

It's not like we manufactured our own

31:53

sort of H.R software back then and

31:55

it's sort of fun. That was only

31:58

10 years ago. Now that was the

32:00

exact, like we engineered this that way

32:02

and then they went on to the

32:05

some of the other steps that we're

32:07

going to talk. about here, but now

32:09

you can do this through automation. And

32:11

a tool like Jazz HR is pretty

32:14

tremendous. It's like having an extra couple

32:16

of set of hands here, which used

32:18

to be mostly hires from belay or

32:20

VAs that we would hire way back

32:23

when. You probably actually went through that

32:25

process when you first bought it at

32:27

Tier 11 is my guess. So it's

32:30

come a long way. Yeah. Yeah, it's

32:32

the only way really with a limited.

32:34

team that you can have enterprise level

32:36

like well class hiring. It's these little

32:39

hacks, these little tweaks in process and

32:41

the tools that you use, it all

32:43

amounts to being able to have more

32:45

of an impact as a HR team.

32:48

And there's a lot of exciting things

32:50

coming down range as well when it

32:52

comes to hiring and the use of

32:55

artificial intelligence. There's also some dangers as

32:57

well. I think we spoke about previously

32:59

the funny paradox. You've got a lot

33:01

of candidates leveraging AI to create these

33:04

perfect applications and CVs and resumes based

33:06

on a position automatically within five seconds

33:08

and they may have 200 different resumes

33:10

because they're all perfectly crafted to get

33:13

a role at your company or that

33:15

company or this company. So this candidate

33:17

looks like 200 different people and then

33:20

on the other end you've got HR

33:22

teams, HR systems, companies that are looking

33:24

for the post perfect candidate for their

33:26

positions using AI. So you've got. AI

33:29

on one end, AI on the other

33:31

end, meeting halfway in the middle, and

33:33

suddenly everyone looks like a perfect candidate.

33:35

Which is scary. Yeah, I think that's

33:38

what emphasises the importance of discovery calls.

33:40

It emphasises the importance of getting, going

33:42

back to the grassroots of human-to-human interaction,

33:45

which takes more resource. It can't be

33:47

discounted, but it does compromise the ability

33:49

to leverage automation in the hiring process,

33:51

because if all of the data... is

33:54

nullifying itself because you've got two AIs

33:56

basically giving each other what each other

33:58

wants. Battling each other. Right. literally just

34:00

shaking hands and we're like, yep, sounds

34:03

good, right? It's like, it just creates

34:05

more noise. So questions like this in

34:07

the system, in the process initially up

34:09

front, when we're not relying on the

34:11

resume per se, we're relying on

34:14

candidates input, asking them questions as

34:16

a method of screening, as opposed

34:18

to just purely reviewing a resume, that

34:20

can provide you a little bit of

34:22

an edge. So that's why I think

34:24

these knockout questions and this method of

34:27

sorting is still relevant now. And it may

34:29

become more and more relevant, but also when

34:31

you start doing this sorting without the questions

34:33

that require the input and you do the

34:35

sorting based on the resume, that's when you

34:37

can have issues because JazzHR is like, oh

34:39

yeah, this person looks great. And then you

34:41

go and get on a chat with them

34:43

and they're like, they've overinflated their resume, they've

34:45

relied on AI to really craft it and

34:47

you're wasting your time because you get on

34:50

and you're like, like, this is not matched. Yeah.

34:52

So the way to counteract AI is really

34:54

is through human interaction, like good old school,

34:56

like 15 minute discovery call. You know, I

34:58

mean, you have to use your judgment when

35:00

it comes to that. I mean, it sort

35:02

of depends on what the role is, but

35:05

even with, I think of like the frontline,

35:07

you know, team member. one of the

35:09

designers that we just hired. Did you

35:12

get on a discovery call with him

35:14

or did he go through sort of

35:16

the next step which will lead into

35:18

in just a second which is like

35:21

the simulation or tell me about that

35:23

because that's more frontline individual as opposed

35:25

to maybe some of these other positions

35:27

that would be an obvious sort of

35:29

discovery call type of candidate? Talk

35:32

to me about that. Yeah so we do

35:34

discovery calls. Really with every candidate

35:36

that comes through our process. It's

35:38

a staple and it's a necessity

35:40

to really touch base and do

35:43

that assessment up front as soon

35:45

as possible Sorry to interrupt

35:47

is that always with you or

35:49

with your assistant or who it's

35:51

always with you? Yeah, no, no,

35:53

not necessarily. No, I think I

35:56

get involved with discovery calls when

35:58

it's probably more of a what

36:00

I put a more impactful, I

36:02

guess, valuable, higher level, managerial role,

36:04

so to speak, I think at

36:06

the moment, I mean, specifically for

36:08

the recent creative hire, the HR

36:10

generalists we have on staff did

36:12

the discovery call? Did the discovery

36:14

call? Yeah, and so HR still

36:16

gets involved and still holds the

36:18

discovery call and still leads the

36:20

discovery call, the initial one. Because

36:22

I think at least from our

36:24

perspective and how we service HR

36:26

at Tier 11, it's a human

36:28

resource function recruitment and we lead

36:30

it and we consider it when

36:32

we look at hiring managers and

36:34

we look at candidates, we look

36:36

at them as our customers as

36:38

our clients. So when it comes

36:40

to hiring, the hiring managers and

36:42

the teams that we're hiring for

36:44

are our clients and we want

36:46

to provide an excellent experience for

36:48

them as well as a candidate.

36:50

So what we tend to do

36:52

up front is try to do

36:54

as much heavy lifting and sorting

36:56

and prioritization and put it on

36:58

a platter for the hiring managers.

37:00

So we try to keep a

37:02

bit of an arm's length when

37:04

it comes to the initial discovery

37:06

calls and some of the initial

37:08

process. And then when we get

37:10

to a point where we're really

37:12

happy with the selection of 10

37:14

to 20 candidates, that's when we

37:16

start feeding them through for feedback.

37:18

to the hiring managers. But that

37:20

discovery call process really is mainly

37:22

HR, a combination of myself, depending

37:25

on the role and the rest

37:27

of the team. For this creative

37:29

strategist that we recently hired, they

37:31

came in through a job board.

37:33

So they naturally went through the

37:35

application process. They were one of

37:37

the 200 people out of the

37:39

1000. And we screened their resume,

37:41

we look at their questions, we

37:43

check everything, and then Jazz also

37:45

has an automated function where you

37:47

can save email templates. depending on

37:49

the role. So we simply, the

37:51

platform super intuitive, you just click

37:53

send email as the next step

37:55

or you just drag them to

37:57

the next step in the process

37:59

automatically sends the email from human

38:01

resources and said, hey, really loved

38:03

your application. would love to get

38:05

on a call with you to

38:07

discuss and ascertain like what it

38:09

is you're looking for at 2-11

38:11

and we can share information about

38:13

what we're looking for what you're

38:15

looking for and see if there's

38:17

a match with this process specifically

38:19

we went straight to discovery call

38:21

because we were getting such good

38:23

quality at the other end at

38:25

the bottom of the barrel right

38:27

like after doing all of that

38:29

refinement we were getting good really

38:31

good candidates so we were comfortable

38:33

and had the capacity internally to

38:35

go straight to the discovery call,

38:37

which is labor intensive. Some of

38:39

them can go for 30 to

38:41

45 minutes. You don't want to

38:43

be doing that for hundreds of

38:45

people. After the discovery call, then

38:47

we went on to demonstrations and

38:49

simulation tasks and the other methods

38:51

that we employ to get even

38:53

more, I guess, focused in on,

38:55

okay, they may want it, they

38:57

may have the capacity, but do

38:59

they really, do they really get

39:01

it in terms of, do they

39:03

have the ability and experience? Can

39:05

they actually do what we need

39:07

them to do in the job

39:09

in the job in the job

39:11

in the job consistently? in the

39:13

job consistently? And that's when we

39:15

enter into the space of more

39:17

technical demonstration or a simulation task.

39:19

And those are kind of two

39:21

different things we can talk about.

39:23

And then we are basically through

39:25

those means we assess their technical

39:27

proficiency and then subsequently from there

39:29

later in the process which we

39:31

can talk about we actually have

39:34

more interviews. So discovery call up

39:36

front is really one of the

39:38

first things that we do. And

39:40

you may have these technical tasks

39:42

either before or after the discovery

39:44

call. But for the sake of

39:46

the creative strategist we did them

39:48

afterwards. So just to summarize, going

39:50

back through to the first part

39:52

of this series, which is going

39:54

to be a three-part series, because

39:56

it is fairly in-depth. But once

39:58

again, the reason why we are

40:00

going through this is because if

40:02

you are listening right after the

40:04

first of the year, the way

40:06

to make your present better is

40:08

to make your future bigger. The

40:10

only way to do that is

40:12

through the efforts of other people

40:14

and hiring is the most important

40:16

part. It's not about people. It's

40:18

about the right people and that's

40:20

what we're talking about here and

40:22

this will... allow you to leverage

40:24

your unique ability and then get

40:26

that 80% that maybe you're doing

40:28

right now and hire for it

40:30

as you scale and grow as

40:32

a business, as a department, whatever

40:34

it happens to be. So the

40:36

steps that we've already gone through

40:38

is accountability chart, which is step

40:40

one. Number two is you then

40:42

source candidates. We talked a lot

40:44

about that. Number three is you

40:46

funnel out those high quality leads.

40:48

Sometimes we use an application, in

40:50

most cases you are using an

40:52

application, or it might be outreach

40:54

in that particular case. Number four

40:56

is the discovery call, where we

40:58

fit in the simulation tasks sort

41:00

of depends on the role, which

41:02

is sort of step number five,

41:04

which is something that we used

41:06

to do really, really heavily way

41:08

back in 2015, when we were

41:10

the only virtual company that was

41:12

out there, because that the by

41:14

virtue of the fact that we

41:16

were virtual. We could send people

41:18

through like three or four different

41:20

tasks and they'd go all the

41:22

way through and then they'd actually

41:24

come on board as an intern.

41:26

We wouldn't even pay them because

41:28

it was such a unique opportunity.

41:30

Now it's not quite as unique.

41:32

So you can't really have that

41:34

level of arrogance anymore. Where do

41:36

you insert the simulation task? And

41:38

how do you? determine what that

41:40

task should be in step sort

41:43

of four or five here? So

41:45

I think the simulation task is

41:47

quite labor intensive and to give

41:49

people an overview really what we're

41:51

asking it's it's usually in the

41:53

form of some mock scenarios or

41:55

an overarching mock scenario or circumstance

41:57

the role itself and their subsequent

41:59

level of experience that you would

42:01

want to hire them for in

42:03

the role is going to encounter

42:05

at your company or in their

42:07

position and The simulation task usually

42:09

is an ask of about, I

42:11

don't know, 15 to 20 minute

42:13

video, and it asks the candidate

42:15

to demonstrate a... of responses to

42:17

the scenario, a set of questions

42:19

that you may answer. And usually

42:21

we present that in a slide

42:23

deck. And there's a lot of

42:25

difference between roles. I think that

42:27

the simulation task lends itself very

42:29

nicely to more technically focused roles,

42:31

where it's quite easy to demonstrate

42:33

your skills via a video, via

42:35

screen share. It's quite easy to

42:37

demonstrate how you would solve a

42:39

problem with logic using IQ. When

42:41

it comes to the EQ focus,

42:43

which is more of the empath,

42:45

the how to navigate certain situations,

42:47

judgment, like these things that are

42:49

more intangible, that are harder to

42:51

demonstrate and measure, that's when simulation

42:53

tasks still are relevant and still

42:55

provide value, and we actually do

42:57

simulation tasks for both types of

42:59

roles now, regardless. An example of

43:01

this difference would be a simulation

43:03

task for the creative strategist that

43:05

we've just hired or a media

43:07

buyer. where it's very much working

43:09

with data, developing, producing, creating, exporting,

43:11

very simpler of an exercise versus

43:13

a simulation task for a client

43:15

success owner or like a CSM,

43:17

their primary skill sets and their

43:19

responsibilities are around handling communications, conflict,

43:21

expectations, goal setting. It's harder to

43:23

get more of a genuine, authentic

43:25

response because a lot of people

43:27

know how they should behave and...

43:29

it's very easy for people, especially

43:31

if that nature that are applying

43:33

for those roles, to talk about

43:35

eloquently and articulate themselves how they

43:37

think they should behave in a

43:39

certain situation, doesn't necessarily correlate to

43:41

how they will behave. So the

43:43

simulation tasks become less relevant, still

43:45

important, still beneficial, but less relevant

43:47

as you get to that other

43:50

end of the EQ spectrum. But

43:52

you can supplement that with other

43:54

things. which we haven't experimented with

43:56

yet but I'd love to, which

43:58

is more like mock circumstances, mock

44:00

live situations where we're hiring a

44:02

client success owner for example. And

44:04

we give them a brief up

44:06

front and then I join or

44:08

someone else joins as client X

44:10

and client X has got issues

44:12

client X has got problems and

44:14

how does the CSO react and

44:16

deal with that provided they've got

44:18

the background and the necessary information

44:20

so they're not just thrown on

44:22

a call with no information and

44:24

the clients like why you're doing

44:26

your job and then they're like

44:28

I don't work here. This is

44:30

like a role play. This is

44:32

like you like next level simulation

44:34

for not necessarily technical expertise, but

44:36

EIQ related expertise, which is much

44:38

harder to test for unless you're

44:40

gonna do some sort of battery

44:42

of psychological exams, which we don't

44:44

really get into here or, you

44:46

know, not even, I don't even

44:48

know any. testing like from Colby

44:50

A all the way to you

44:52

know you name it disk it

44:54

there's nothing that really measures that

44:56

extremely well so but this is

44:58

sort of an interesting sort of

45:00

next level yeah I think I'm

45:02

sure AI will figure out a

45:04

solution or jazz HR will figure

45:06

out a solution to this at

45:08

some point oh I mean it

45:10

we're already kind of there like

45:12

we're not far off I mean

45:14

you can get voice-based generative tools

45:16

where it could literally hold a

45:18

voice conversation with a candidate and

45:20

respond the way a client wants

45:22

you want the client to respond.

45:24

It's actually happening if not around

45:26

the corner where you can have

45:28

AI tools that are literally conducting

45:30

the roleplay and then assessing and

45:32

providing feedback. I think what's important

45:34

to consider with all of this

45:36

and the reason why hiring is

45:38

difficult is because there is science

45:40

and then there's art to it.

45:42

And the art piece is... really

45:44

about how do you triangulate all

45:46

of these data points all of

45:48

these things right that are around

45:50

the candidate from what you've taken

45:52

them through or what you can

45:54

observe for example the initial discovery

45:56

call it's going to give you

45:59

so many If you ask the

46:01

right questions the right way, the

46:03

initial application, their LinkedIn resume, how

46:05

they engage online, the feedback, the

46:07

reviews, the referees they've got on

46:09

their LinkedIn, the references that you

46:11

should probably reach out to and

46:13

get feedback from. The simulation task, like

46:15

as you said, disk, Colby, those are

46:17

in other forms, another data point that

46:19

you can use to triangulate. There is

46:22

not one silver bullet amongst all

46:24

of these avenues of information. The

46:26

art is in being efficient in

46:28

looking at the right candidates so

46:30

you can do that triangulation effectively

46:33

because you can't do that triangulation

46:35

effectively for 1,000 candidates. You can

46:37

only do that for a select

46:39

few of people because it's so

46:42

intentional and you need to do

46:44

it rigorously with a lot of

46:46

information and there's an element to

46:48

it which is ultimately human-centric.

46:51

as well. You need the right recruiters

46:53

that understand the importance of this triangulation

46:55

exercise and they're not just relying or

46:57

being overly biased on one interaction or

47:00

one data point. For example, I had

47:02

a really good discovery call with this

47:04

person, we hit it off, but their sim

47:06

was crap and they've got, the referee was

47:09

saying something dodgy and you're like,

47:11

you get fixated on one data

47:13

point, you're not triangulating effectively, and

47:15

this is the essence of hiring

47:17

slow. versus hiring faster making mistakes.

47:19

People that hire fast don't do

47:22

this triangulation. They skip it. They rely

47:24

on one source of data, one variable,

47:26

one interview, or a couple of interviews,

47:28

and they skip straight to a result,

47:30

and then you're left with a poor hire.

47:32

It's the warm body trap. I need a

47:34

warm body right now to fill this

47:37

role and I don't really care who

47:39

they I just need somebody to do

47:41

this thing and that's the worst way

47:43

to hire people and you bring up

47:45

a couple of good points and I

47:47

mean our leadership team gives you so

47:49

much crap for getting so excited about

47:51

all this stuff but at the heart

47:53

of it this is so much fun

47:55

to talk about from my standpoint so

47:57

I'm gonna defend you next time they

47:59

they rip publicly. But anyway, it's all

48:01

in good fun here at Chair 11.

48:04

Gosh, it gets so excited about HR

48:06

stuff. It's one of the things I

48:08

hear a lot. I'm like, it's great.

48:10

Would you want anybody else in charge

48:12

of it? Like he's so passionate about

48:14

it. But like the triangulation, it's like

48:16

taking little data points. And we'll get

48:18

into this in our next episode when

48:20

we go into interviews. But it's the

48:22

subtle cues and clues that something tells

48:24

you in the back of your mind.

48:26

Something's not right or something is right.

48:28

It's like we had a interview yesterday

48:30

with somebody. My initial gut reaction was,

48:32

I like this guy. Now, it's not

48:34

because I liked him, but he checked

48:37

all these psychological boxes in my head,

48:39

which is a very good first impression.

48:41

Like the first impression, it does matter.

48:43

Some people are very good at first

48:45

impressions, but that's one data point. Right.

48:47

But if he didn't make that good

48:49

first impression, that would be like, meh,

48:51

I'll go along because he seems like

48:53

he's competent and his LinkedIn profile looks

48:55

good and all these other sorts of

48:57

things. But it's like you're thinking about

48:59

all of these different parts of the

49:01

interaction. And we'll get into this with

49:03

the interview stage, which I know you're

49:05

a big fan of like a lot

49:07

of like these strategies that we use

49:10

and how effective they are. But it's

49:12

not necessarily. how they answer, or the

49:14

content of the answer, it's how they

49:16

answer, because that sets off these little

49:18

triggers in your head, either yes or

49:20

no. And I think it's the triangulation.

49:22

You're saying it's like triangulation, like three

49:24

points. I think it was like 12

49:26

or 14 different points all coming together.

49:28

And if one or two of them

49:30

are just off, you know, I'm like,

49:32

there's something about that. And it always

49:34

comes back, this is just the luxury

49:36

of having experience, like having interviewed thousands

49:38

of people, literally thousands of people at

49:40

this point in time of my career.

49:42

It's like you sock away. so much

49:45

in your subconscious and you can't quite

49:47

put your finger on it, but there's

49:49

something that's not right or that's something

49:51

that is right. It works both ways.

49:53

I think that's an important point that

49:55

is overlooked in the hiring process, because

49:57

it's not like, hey, you're going through

49:59

step one, two, three, four, five. It's

50:01

not that. We are outlining this in

50:03

steps, of course, because that's what we

50:05

do when we try and try and

50:07

try and make it. Yeah, I agree

50:09

completely. And I think, is there a

50:11

shape that has like 30 different angles?

50:13

I don't know, maybe we need to...

50:15

Is that dodecahedron? Angulation. Yeah, yeah. I

50:18

have to ask Ang about that. She's

50:20

like the chemist. I'm sure there's some

50:22

kind of chemical formula that has three

50:24

sides. Yeah. I do think that there's

50:26

kind of two sides to this is

50:28

the steps, which is the science, and

50:30

then there's the undercurrent. There's the art

50:32

that stitches it all together. What's really

50:34

interesting as well is just when you've

50:36

done this a lot of times you

50:38

do have that intuition. Even hiring managers

50:40

may have that. You may present candidates

50:42

that you believe are great and then

50:44

the hire managers like no, you're like

50:46

well, why not? It's hard to put

50:48

my finger on it. I need some

50:51

more time to think, but it's not

50:53

sitting well. And you have to respect

50:55

that because of their experience and work

50:57

with their hiring managers to dig deeper

50:59

as to like what are their feelings,

51:01

why are they feeling it? what are

51:03

the potential blocks? Because ultimately, like I

51:05

mentioned previously, the HR function is there

51:07

to serve those in which they are

51:09

hiring four. And if every time you

51:11

put candidates in front of your hiring

51:13

managers to review, you're getting feedback from

51:15

them. I don't like this person. This

51:17

person's great. I like this aspect. Don't

51:19

like that aspect. We're furiously taking notes.

51:21

Okay, all right, got it. We're building

51:24

the role. We're tweaking the role. We're

51:26

tweaking the way I reach out. and

51:28

conduct outreach. It's an evolving iterative beast

51:30

that grows and changes form and shape

51:32

based on feedback. and it's feedback from

51:34

candidates, from hiring managers, from who we're

51:36

getting in the funnel. It's not a

51:38

fixed method per se. Yeah. Well, I

51:40

think this has been a great step

51:42

to, like, no, I'm saying step two,

51:44

because it's really, we're really on sort

51:46

of like step six here, but I

51:48

mean, we're formulating an overall strategy. The

51:50

reason why we're doing this is we've

51:52

been doing this a long time. And

51:54

there are companies that are larger than

51:57

us, but there's not many companies that

51:59

have been hiring virtually as long as

52:01

we have. When you really stop and

52:03

think about that, and that's one of

52:05

the reasons why I really do believe

52:07

that people listening to this show, even

52:09

if you're running a billion dollar organization

52:11

and you're hiring virtual employees or people

52:13

that are remote, these principles apply and

52:15

I guarantee you would learn something from

52:17

this series of episodes here because you

52:19

can always get better at it. because

52:21

there's been plenty of times I've been

52:23

completely fooled. I'm like, home run. Love

52:25

that guy, you know, or gal, or

52:27

whoever it is, and then they turn

52:29

out to be just a dud. So

52:32

even with all this experience, you still

52:34

get fooled. And that's just a natural

52:36

part of the process. That's the reality

52:38

of the world that we live in.

52:40

You're not going to make judgments all

52:42

the time. But if you're bright 80%

52:44

of the time in your hires or

52:46

90%, that's hall of fame, really, at

52:48

the end of the end of the

52:50

end of the end of the end

52:52

of the end of the end of

52:54

the day. Yeah, and I think we'll

52:56

cover this as one of the last

52:58

steps or if not the last step,

53:00

but to your point regarding you can

53:02

feel like or believe that you've hired

53:05

the best person for the role, but

53:07

if you have an onboarding process that

53:09

is inconsistent, isn't setting them up for

53:11

success, isn't really enabling them to have

53:13

that ability to GWC from the start,

53:15

to really get the role. Get it.

53:17

Wantation has the capacity to do it

53:19

for those who are familiar with the

53:21

EOS term, GWC. Sorry. Translate. That was

53:23

not an Aussie term. That was an

53:25

actual real term from a guy in

53:27

the US. That's right. I'm converted. Just

53:29

doing my job as a translator here.

53:31

That's it. I think on-boarding, I mean,

53:33

we'll get to that. I personally feel

53:35

like that is one of the most

53:38

important steps of this entire process, because

53:40

I think I mentioned in series one,

53:42

like the first podcast. I mean, you

53:44

can go through all of this and

53:46

hire the right person for the seat.

53:48

Objectively, the right person, like it is

53:50

the right person. Let's just take that

53:52

as a truth. resource and time and

53:54

effort and everyone's getting excited everyone's keen

53:56

everyone's aligned let's do it and then

53:58

it's just like you're completely shooting yourself

54:00

in the foot so the onboarding experience

54:02

the employee candidate experience does not finish

54:04

when they sign the dotted line and

54:06

they join the company that's ultimately where

54:08

it starts you know in my perspective

54:11

when the relationship starts exactly so it's

54:13

it's huge yeah That's good stuff. Well,

54:15

we're going to get into that and

54:17

we might need a fourth episode on

54:19

this because I mean, there is so

54:21

much to it, but at the very

54:23

least, you're here right now, you've gotten

54:25

your candid all the way through HR

54:27

discovery call, your simulation task, you're ready

54:29

for that first interview, and that's what

54:31

we're going to hit on. in the

54:33

next step in this process in part

54:35

three of how to hire a what's

54:37

the most cliche thing besides rock star.

54:39

in today's language. Probably A player. A

54:41

player. A player. A player. A player.

54:44

Super star. Rock star. All right. We're

54:46

just going to go full on corporate

54:48

cliche here. But you basically want like

54:50

a great team member that's going to

54:52

be with you for a very very

54:54

long period of time. Yeah. And is

54:56

a great match for them because they're

54:58

getting what they want out of the

55:00

job and you're getting out of them

55:02

what you need for the company. And

55:04

that's when that happens, that is. a

55:06

really good feeling and And

55:08

like you said, it

55:10

doesn't stop with

55:12

the hiring process. It

55:14

only sort of

55:16

begins because then the

55:19

hard work is

55:21

really there, the management

55:23

and the leadership

55:25

and everything else, which

55:27

we'll hint at

55:29

in our next episode.

55:31

So once again,

55:33

Josh Hill, VP of

55:35

HR, we're just

55:37

going to say that.

55:39

Thank you once

55:41

again for coming on

55:43

Perpetual Traffic. It's

55:45

been tremendous here. And

55:47

stay tuned for

55:49

the next episode in

55:52

this series here,

55:54

and we will leave

55:56

links over in

55:58

the show notes over

56:00

at perpetualtraffic.com. If

56:02

you have not left

56:04

us a rating

56:06

or review on this

56:08

show, I don't

56:10

know what you've been

56:12

doing with your

56:14

life, but make sure

56:16

you head over

56:18

to Spotify, especially we're

56:20

blowing up there,

56:22

especially in the marketing

56:25

space or wherever

56:27

you listen to podcasts,

56:29

leave us a

56:31

rating and review. We

56:33

really do appreciate

56:35

that. And of course

56:37

you can always

56:39

tune in over on

56:41

our YouTube channel

56:43

at perpetualtraffic.com forward/YouTube. So

56:45

thank you, Josh,

56:47

for coming on. Thanks

56:49

for having me.

56:51

It's been super fun.

56:53

Looking forward to

56:55

episode three, four, five,

56:58

six, seven, eight. We

57:01

actually recorded this one too. Let's not

57:04

forget that. Last time we forgot to

57:06

hit record. So we've actually done this

57:08

episode twice to our viewers and listeners

57:10

out there. Whoa.

57:12

All right. Well, anyway, thank you so

57:14

much for listening to this week. On behalf

57:16

of my awesome co -host, Lauren Ebertrulo, who

57:19

is not with us here today, but

57:21

I'm sure enjoying herself, but she will be

57:23

listening to this because she needs help

57:25

hiring for her company too. Until

57:27

next show, see you. You've

57:33

been listening to Perpetual Traffic.