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2:00

it's Ralph here. Let me tell

2:03

you about a lifestyle brand that

2:05

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2:51

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2:59

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3:01

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3:06

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tier11.com/apply. Hello and

3:35

welcome to the perpetual traffic podcast.

3:37

This is your host Ralph Burms

3:40

and the founder and CEO of

3:42

Tier 11 alongside my amazing co-host

3:44

Lauren E. Petula the founder of

3:46

Mongoose Media. It never fails

3:48

to get that smile. Everything

3:50

is a amazing or unbelievable

3:52

today is an unbelievable show by

3:55

the way because we've got an

3:57

incredible guest. One that we've hinted

3:59

at. I think for at least two

4:01

months. Finally, we could get them. This

4:03

is a continuation of our show right

4:06

after the first of the year,

4:08

if you haven't listened to it, back

4:10

on January 17th, episode 663. We'll leave

4:12

links in the show notes, which was

4:15

how to make your present better by

4:17

making your future bigger. One of the

4:19

big things and big takeaways of that,

4:21

as well as multiple shows prior to

4:24

that one, where we talk about

4:26

outsourcing, we talk about. hiring, we

4:28

talk about how to scale your

4:31

business, build your team to ultimately

4:33

operate the 20% that is your

4:35

unique ability, and then figure

4:37

out that 80% of the

4:39

tasks that you're doing today,

4:41

hire someone who's better than you

4:44

at those other tasks to scale

4:46

and grow the business. And

4:48

this could also be very

4:51

relevant to. Let's say you're a marketing

4:53

director, you're a VP of marketing of

4:55

a marketing team. How are you going

4:57

to scale and grow the business? Is

4:59

it something that you're doing now that

5:01

maybe you should be hiring another individual

5:04

to do? Maybe it's headlines, maybe it's copy,

5:06

maybe it's Google ads, maybe it's Facebook

5:08

ads, maybe you should hire an agency.

5:10

You know, hint, hint, terror 11. The

5:12

point is, is all of this is

5:14

related back to that episode, episode 663.

5:16

And then we did talk about this

5:18

a little bit more just a few

5:21

weeks back on our four C's episode.

5:23

And that's the reason why we have

5:25

today, our HR guy. Although now he

5:27

calls himself the VP of employee

5:29

success. Just when I got used to

5:32

calling him the VP of people in

5:34

culture, he now goes and changes his

5:36

title. Today we actually have Josh Hill.

5:38

from Tier 11 all the way from

5:41

Adelaide Australia, by the way, on perpetual

5:43

traffic. Welcome to the show. Thanks,

5:45

ma'am. It has been too long. I'm getting

5:47

this stuff. And I do keep changing my total

5:50

just to keep you on your toes, Ralph.

5:52

That's true. You're just going to be our

5:54

HR guy. So, and of course, you pronounce

5:56

HR in a very distinct way, which we're

5:59

going to just... make fun of you the

6:01

entire show for. So, I'm used to it.

6:03

He's used to it. Just keep

6:05

it coming. Anyway, Josh is just

6:07

a little bit of bragging about

6:09

Josh. First off, Josh, military background.

6:11

He was captain in the Australian

6:13

military, had 150 plus soldiers under

6:15

his command, and one of the

6:18

things that he actually did is

6:20

we actually recruited him from the

6:22

Australian military to be a mediabire

6:24

at Tier 11, and then somehow

6:26

persuaded him to leave the military

6:28

and come here. I don't know how the

6:30

hell that happened, but now he is our

6:33

HR guy. He's ascended through the ranks and

6:35

has taken what was always a really good

6:37

hiring process. And we've talked about our

6:39

hiring process here quite a bit. Today

6:41

we're going to get into it a

6:43

little bit deeper because it's easy to

6:45

say go hire somebody. It's easy to

6:47

say go find somebody. But how do

6:49

you actually do it? That's the hard

6:51

part. And so today we're going to give

6:53

you a framework that Josh has perfected.

6:55

through the years based on an original way

6:57

in which we hired way back when which

7:00

was sort of an eight-step formula when we

7:02

first started for 11 as a virtual company

7:04

now it's even better than it ever was

7:06

and now we're even recruiting and other countries.

7:09

So there's a lot going on here. So

7:11

hopefully you'll be able to have some takeaways

7:13

from today's show as you continue to operate

7:16

in your 20% and figure out the 80%

7:18

that you don't want to be doing

7:20

and get somebody else to do it because

7:22

there are people that are out there that

7:25

want to do the stuff that you don't

7:27

want to do. And that's how you

7:29

scale. Anyway, Josh, maybe we can sort

7:31

of take a step back here. We

7:33

talked a little bit about the framework

7:35

that we use, but we also discussed

7:37

before we hit record. one of the core

7:39

elements before even the framework itself. So maybe

7:41

we can talk about that. I know it's

7:43

something that's near and dear to your heart,

7:46

which is core values. Yeah, for sure. I

7:48

think the tendency for a lot of companies,

7:50

business owners, I mean, it doesn't really matter

7:52

what size of a team you're operating on,

7:54

but the tendency to jump straight to

7:56

a result and hire, I mean, to resist

7:58

that urge, is difficult. It's a result that

8:01

a lot of people chase. They see

8:03

a problem and they go, okay, we

8:05

need a body. Right. And it's one

8:07

of a myriad of different ways that

8:09

you can enhance your capability as a

8:12

company or add resource, drive change, increase

8:14

momentum. Like, whatever your goal is, the

8:16

first thing that comes to mind is

8:18

let's throw a body at it. No

8:20

worries. However, I guess that the system

8:22

that we build at 2-11 and I

8:24

think the way we approach a lot

8:27

of problems and I think is the

8:29

way we approach. We do have a

8:31

lengthy kind of foundational component of our

8:33

recruitment process, which is looking first at

8:35

why are we hiring? What do we

8:37

need? What matters to Tier 11? What

8:40

matters to our team? What matters to

8:42

our culture? If you believe that in

8:44

the recruitment process, the cultural component, the

8:46

cultural fit, is one of the most

8:48

important things, as well as skills and

8:50

everything else, then it will naturally lead

8:52

you to be thinking about, okay, what

8:55

are our values as a company? What's

8:57

our vision? What's our purpose? What's the

8:59

current status of how engaged our people

9:01

are? And how do we get more

9:03

people like them? Who are your best

9:05

players? Who are your best people on

9:08

the team? And how do you replicate

9:10

those? But understanding why they're your best

9:12

players on the team and how do

9:14

you replicate those? But understanding why they're

9:16

your best players and starting with core

9:18

values is one of corporate environments, which

9:20

I was involved. Your experience is obviously

9:23

in the military. My experience is primarily

9:25

in the corporate world, where there were

9:27

core values, but they weren't adhered to

9:29

these dusty old maxims that sat on

9:31

a wall somewhere at the corporate office.

9:33

And nobody paid attention to them. And

9:36

I think when you start your own

9:38

organization or your own department, like you

9:40

can have core values in your own

9:42

department to a certain degree that roll

9:44

up to the company. And I think

9:46

that's a very important place to start.

9:48

And when I talk on this quite

9:51

a bit, is that nobody does that

9:53

they just go right to the result

9:55

like a let me throw a body

9:57

at it and that exactly what you're

9:59

saying and that just leads to. a

10:01

bad result. It's like you fill the

10:04

void, but you have not found the

10:06

right person, the right seat, right role,

10:08

that also is in alignment with your

10:10

vision as an organization or as a

10:12

department. And when we started hiring, we

10:14

were very, very intentional about that. And

10:16

we just got lucky that we hired

10:19

a bunch of people that sort of

10:21

knew what they were doing and were

10:23

really good before we had a real

10:25

system. And then all we did is

10:27

we took the best person and then

10:29

wrote down like, like, What are the

10:32

core characteristics? What do they have specifically?

10:34

And it was a long list and

10:36

we boiled it down to like three

10:38

or four things. And those became our

10:40

core values. And it was sort of

10:42

this, what I always referred to way

10:44

back then, this is, you know, seven

10:47

or eight years ago now, as our

10:49

character diamond. But it's really in essence,

10:51

it was four things. And I think

10:53

that's a good place to start. You

10:55

haven't done that yet as an organization.

10:57

I think none of the stuff that

11:00

we say in the next part of

11:02

the episode really matters all that much.

11:04

Am I incorrect in saying that? I

11:06

agree, completely. I think when you're looking

11:08

to scale, you need the common threat

11:10

in the company. You need the common

11:12

DNA. And I think if you would

11:15

cross compare a lot of successful companies

11:17

or startups, they would have similar attributes

11:19

in their values and they would drive

11:21

their values in very specific ways to

11:23

not only just have them on the

11:25

wall, like you were saying. That's vanity,

11:28

right? Like, that's, again, like, what we're

11:30

talking about here is not just about

11:32

having values, and, oh, these are the

11:34

values, that's also a result. Being able

11:36

to articulate a set of guiding principles,

11:38

these values, they need to be linked

11:40

to what you expect to observe through

11:43

behavior, right? So, when we say a

11:45

value is hunger, what does that behavior

11:47

look like? How is that actually observable

11:49

in the business? How do you set

11:51

that expectation? How do you reward for

11:53

it? Again, that's foundational, right? So what

11:56

we're talking about here isn't just, oh,

11:58

these are our values tick done. It's

12:00

a hard, lengthy, brain-consuming

12:02

process to come up with values

12:04

that matter. And then connecting it

12:06

to your operations and the journey

12:08

that you have as a company,

12:11

that's even more difficult because now

12:13

you need to live the values

12:15

and you need to inculcate them.

12:17

There you go. Oh, that's it.

12:19

That's the word. It's for you, Ralph.

12:21

Wait a second. What $20 word are

12:23

you trying to drop right now? That's

12:25

there. It's an action line. Now you've

12:28

seen a deployed. you and your military

12:30

language. Oh my goodness. You've now seen

12:32

it deployed. I'm sure like everyone else

12:34

is like, okay, Josh is too smart

12:37

for me right now. Can you explain

12:39

what that word mean? We have no

12:41

idea what that word is. The definition

12:43

is to instill an idea attitude or

12:45

habit by persistent instruction. He just googled

12:48

it. He didn't know that after this

12:50

head. I've got it enough because I

12:52

knew one of you would ask me,

12:54

right? So I've got it up here,

12:57

inculcate, inculcate, verb. It's like,

12:59

yeah, you need a foundation,

13:01

an ingrained, that's funny. It's

13:03

infiltrating an idea. Yeah. Basically,

13:06

it's like really intentionally

13:08

nurturing something. And yeah, when

13:10

it comes to hiring, it's like, yeah,

13:12

you need a foundation, you need

13:15

a vision, you need, you need

13:17

values. But that in and of

13:19

itself is a whole podcast episode,

13:21

right? Like just how to develop

13:23

and come to terms of what

13:25

your values are. But if you

13:27

have. these mapped out. It sets

13:29

you up really well for all sorts

13:31

of other things, not just the hiring,

13:33

but it sets you up to build

13:35

a workforce that is aligned to

13:37

exactly what you're trying to

13:39

achieve. So I guess the core

13:41

values are undercurrent of everything. By

13:43

the time that the candidate gets

13:45

to me, I'm really thinking, all

13:48

right, do they embrace those core values?

13:50

And I have specific questions around

13:52

those core values, because I'm sort

13:54

of the one that as the

13:56

last interview or we've already made

13:58

the hire because you guys. exactly

14:00

what to look for. And then my thing

14:02

is just sort of either a tick in

14:05

the box or it's after they've already been

14:07

hired just to sort of make sure because

14:09

I know the job has already been done.

14:11

The point is, is like once you have core

14:13

values, you need to, you need to be

14:15

like layered upon or like, I look at

14:17

all the steps that we're going to talk

14:19

about here today. It's like it's the oil

14:21

that kind of makes the engine go. and

14:24

you have to constantly be thinking about

14:26

it. It's not just I am hiring

14:28

for the skill. I need a media

14:30

buyer. I need somebody who is, who

14:32

knows how to do Facebook ads. Great.

14:35

That's one thing. But do they embrace

14:37

our core values as well? Do

14:39

they have hunger? Like the initial

14:41

ones where humble hungry, smart, and

14:43

the last one is marketing IQ.

14:46

Like those were our four core

14:48

values. When we first started. humble

14:50

hungry smart marketing IQ because

14:52

everyone had to know something

14:54

about marketing that's now changed.

14:56

So it's much more simple the point

14:58

is is we had something and so we

15:01

hired for all those things we promoted for

15:03

all those things we trained for all those

15:05

things we trained for all those things we

15:07

fired for all those things we fired for all

15:10

those things too yeah that's right at the end

15:12

of the day like that is the essence of

15:14

the inculcates that idea inculcates all of your

15:16

steps Not to use your term or

15:18

anything, but I guess I just did.

15:21

So take us through the steps. You've

15:23

got your core values. Cool, good.

15:25

You do that as an organization. How

15:27

do you go about hiring? Like where does

15:29

it sort of start? What step number one?

15:31

And let's sort of go all the way

15:33

through. And do you have numbered steps here

15:35

in your mind or is it just like

15:38

how do you look at it? Well, I mean,

15:40

I guess if we take a step back, you

15:42

can kind of divide it up into three phases.

15:44

I mean at least that's how I look at

15:46

it. You've got the preliminary like phase one which

15:48

is all the stuff we're talking about now.

15:51

It's like the foundational components that will

15:53

feed into hiring and are super important

15:55

like the values and you know getting

15:57

an understanding of exactly what.

16:00

type of person, common thread that you

16:02

want throughout the company in terms of

16:04

like their behavior and the way they

16:06

show up, right? Like some companies are

16:09

all about fast moving change, some companies

16:11

are about stability, and then it matters

16:13

intra-team as well. So yes, I think

16:15

it's important to have a look

16:17

at the agency wide or company wide,

16:19

kind of the values and the culture

16:21

that you're trying to nurture, but

16:23

teams have their certain dynamics as

16:25

well, certain roles that you're hiring

16:27

for, certain parts of the business.

16:30

do you want to nail it down even

16:32

more? Like depending on the project that they're

16:34

likely to take on if they're a senior

16:36

member or something, there's nuance that you need

16:38

to work out first on what is their

16:40

experience going to look like and demand and

16:42

mapping that out. And that kind of feeds into,

16:44

I guess, more on that first phase, which is

16:47

regarding, you know, having a clear idea

16:49

of your accountability chart or your

16:51

organizational structure. You don't just want to

16:53

be hiring people. randomly and just

16:55

throwing them into your organizational structure.

16:58

You wouldn't have an idea of

17:00

the seats that you have on the bus.

17:02

But we always do that. I don't

17:04

think we've done that at least once.

17:06

We throw people at problems. Totally. It

17:08

seems like it's the best solution. I see

17:10

you, you can fix this. Right. I didn't

17:13

train you whatsoever, but how are you therefore?

17:15

I know you can do it. Yeah, every company

17:17

does. Yeah, that's right. So that's

17:19

being a seat-based organization. And there's

17:22

always a push and pull between these

17:24

things I found. There's a lot of

17:26

advocacy for if the person is right

17:28

and they're a cultural fit and you have

17:30

a need and you don't just quite know where

17:32

they fit yet, get them on the bus

17:35

anyway, because they'll figure it out. Even if

17:37

the processes and systems are sloppy, they

17:39

will rise to the challenge and they

17:41

will get shit done. That's a mantra,

17:43

that's a perspective, but it also needs

17:45

to be balanced with the fact that

17:47

you should. not full go or forsake the

17:49

need to have a clear idea on your

17:51

accountability structure and why you're hiring a seat

17:53

and how to define that seat. So that

17:56

is really the first phase. It's all that

17:58

due diligence that needs to happen. and having

18:00

a clear idea of the organizational structure,

18:02

and then developing the role itself, like

18:04

the job map, which we call it

18:06

at 211, which is really like the

18:08

Bible of the seat. It has expectations,

18:11

the vision for the role, core account

18:13

abilities, competency levels, like it's a comprehensive

18:15

document, standalone, that you should be able

18:17

to give someone, and they should be

18:19

able to know exactly what they need

18:21

to do, how they're going to be

18:23

measured, what's expected of them, just from

18:25

a single document. And creating that as

18:28

an as an early exercise as an

18:30

early exercise. gets the juices flying with

18:32

why we hire in the seat, what

18:34

are the expectations, what are the measures

18:36

of success. And that's another kind of

18:38

foundational component I would wrap into this

18:40

first pre-lim phase. And then once you

18:42

clear on all of those things, you've

18:44

got a very good idea of what

18:47

you need, why you need it, what

18:49

value they're going to drive. Then we

18:51

start getting into the meat of like

18:53

actual sourcing and recruitment and interviews and

18:55

selection, simulation, simulation tasks, like cultural fit

18:57

assessments, like I mean... Wait, you do

18:59

simulation tasks before someone gets hired on

19:01

all positions? Yes, that's brought, yeah, yeah.

19:03

Dang. We'll get to that in just

19:06

a second. That takes so much time

19:08

and patience. It does, I just want

19:10

to be clear, before we go on

19:12

to this, because I do think the

19:14

simulator task, when I explain it, when

19:16

I talk about it, like especially when

19:18

we went from six figures to seven

19:20

figures plus, it was an application to

19:23

a simulator to a simulator to a

19:25

bunch of other steps before they even

19:27

got to an interview, and it works

19:29

so well. It's a longer process, but

19:31

let's just take a step back here.

19:33

The accountability chart is super important. And

19:35

now that is, if you have not,

19:37

we talk about this so many times

19:39

on the show, nearly 700 episodes. I

19:42

think we talk about traction and EOS,

19:44

the entrepreneur, the operating system, like obviously

19:46

many, many times. And it's great to

19:48

see like when I go to some

19:50

conferences for agencies, there's a lot of

19:52

adoption on this system now, which is

19:54

great. It's great to see because it

19:56

wasn't that way five to 10 years

19:58

ago. When you talk about the accountability

20:01

show, we're really talking about an orch

20:03

chart, right? And I think when we've...

20:05

for a start where, to Lauren's point,

20:07

he said, oh, you're great, you fit

20:09

the company culture, just come on board,

20:11

great people, we'll find you a seat.

20:13

That works to a certain degree. And

20:15

one of the best business books that

20:17

I reread probably every single year, not

20:20

probably, because I know that I reread

20:22

it or listen to it is good

20:24

to great. It's like, find the right

20:26

people, get them on the bus, and

20:28

then figure out the seat on the

20:30

bus. So there's two schools of thought

20:32

here. So I don't think one is

20:34

wrong and the other is correct because

20:37

it depends on where you are in

20:39

your growth and in your business because

20:41

the first way just find the right

20:43

people and then we'll figure out the

20:45

seat worked for us at a later

20:47

point in time though we needed to

20:49

have more structure and accountability chart is

20:51

basically okay we have let's say CEO,

20:53

then we have leadership team and then

20:56

inside the leadership team that's going to

20:58

be managers and under those managers is

21:00

going to be all these individual people

21:02

that are going to be the ones

21:04

that are doing the skill or doing

21:06

the thing. That is an accountability chart.

21:08

That is like you have a, you

21:10

literally every quarter what we used to

21:12

do for EOS is we would surely

21:15

fire everyone in our brains and restructure

21:17

the organization and create a new accountability

21:19

chart. It's like, what do we really

21:21

need from a structure standpoint? Do we

21:23

have the right people in the right

21:25

seats? Do we even have the right

21:27

seats? So I don't think like you

21:29

talked about that, but I don't know

21:32

if that's necessarily something that people think

21:34

about quite as much because as you

21:36

become a million multi-million dollar organization, this

21:38

part becomes absolutely essential. Exactly. The term

21:40

that we use quite a bit, and

21:42

I'm not sure if it's Jim Collins,

21:44

maybe it is, but it's putting people

21:46

in the parking the parking lot, so

21:48

to so to so to speak. when

21:51

you're designing or reimagining or going through

21:53

this due diligence of like do I

21:55

need to hire this person or even

21:57

when you're doing reviews of the company's

21:59

structure. It's like the ability to emotionally

22:01

remove your from the situation because a

22:03

lot of the people that you work

22:05

with you're connected to them 100% you've

22:07

built relationships with your immediate team especially

22:10

if you're a business owner like it's

22:12

difficult to emotionally detach yourself. You have

22:14

personal relationships with these people. You're spending

22:16

more time with them than your partners

22:18

and family. Yeah, 100% Exactly. Spend more

22:20

time with Lauren than I do my

22:22

wife. So that's true. Actually, I think

22:24

that is true. I think you and

22:27

I've had more conversations than you and

22:29

Jen, which I'm not complaining about, but

22:31

it is funny. But the fact of

22:33

matter is that like, like you're saying,

22:35

these are people that you... personally invested

22:37

and especially through the business owner. But

22:39

then the other thing is like you

22:41

assume expectations because they're coming in to

22:43

what could be a well-oiled machine that

22:46

could be a culture that is working

22:48

really really well and I know this

22:50

is like a sidebar to it but

22:52

there's also been times where self-included and

22:54

I'm certain other people listening have hired

22:56

someone that's come in with a wrecking

22:58

ball and Miley Cyrus the team's groove

23:00

so eliminating that wrecking ball before it

23:02

comes in has to be accounted for

23:05

and what you're talking about helps vibe

23:07

check and groove check. Yeah I mean

23:09

hiring has the ability to destroy your

23:11

business and also has the ability to

23:13

take your business from good to great.

23:15

It's one of the things you just

23:17

can't forsake. When it gets to like

23:19

the 20 to 80 and removing yourself

23:21

from this as a business owner or,

23:24

you know, just if you need to

23:26

offload some of the work that's done

23:28

to get to this level of hiring

23:30

quality, because it does take a lot

23:32

of work. It's just important to remember

23:34

that like, I mean, in your case,

23:36

Ralph, for example, you built a hiring

23:38

process that worked, right, and it got

23:41

us to a certain position as a

23:43

company, but the amount of sheer time

23:45

it took for you to maintain to

23:47

maintain that, for you to maintain that,

23:49

like you have the ability to do

23:51

that as a business owner like you

23:53

proved it out you built it but

23:55

you get to a point where it's

23:57

just like you grow to the business

24:00

to a certain point and you need

24:02

to focus your efforts on other parts

24:04

of the business or even elevate as

24:06

a visionary and you can't let the

24:08

hiring process degrade or diminish from

24:10

that point. In fact what you need to do

24:12

is invest in it and increase its capacity

24:15

and its ability or at least maintain it

24:17

where you left it and to do that you

24:19

need to invest. Yeah and I think a

24:21

big component as well is this is this

24:23

emotional side that's not really talked about I

24:25

don't think too much. because hiring is

24:27

a process, it's a system, it's a

24:30

logical flow to get people into

24:32

the organization. But fundamentally

24:34

we're talking about humans, right?

24:36

We're talking about when we

24:38

hire people, it's not just about

24:40

a job or a seat, you

24:43

know, they're fundamentally changing their lives,

24:45

they're upheaving, you know, a lot of

24:47

the time that they spend with their

24:49

previous workforce and they're

24:51

subscribing to a new product

24:54

to Tier 11. the mentality that

24:56

we're starting to approach is looking

24:58

at employment or even just the

25:00

employee experience as a subscription product.

25:02

Why do our employees or contractors want

25:05

to subscribe to Tier 11? What's stopping

25:07

them from getting up and saying, you

25:09

know what, I'm going to change my

25:11

Netflix subscription to Amazon. I'm going to

25:14

change my Tier 11 subscription from this agency

25:16

to another agency. If we approach it

25:18

that way, then it forces the HR

25:20

team or leaders to think about

25:22

the employee experience first, then... you're

25:24

going to develop a better

25:27

hiring experience for them

25:29

and also for the managers. It's

25:31

a good way to frame it as well.

25:33

I mean hiring is I always sort

25:35

of think back to a hiring

25:37

manager that I worked with in the corporate

25:40

world where every hiring decision

25:42

for him was an emotional

25:44

decision because he just hired

25:46

on emotion he's like my

25:49

gut tells me this. Gut tells

25:51

me this guy is going to be a

25:53

great salesperson, like based upon what criteria. And

25:55

I think you have to have very very

25:57

specific criteria. You need a job map. So

25:59

it is. totally in his case he

26:02

was looking for just a gut

26:04

feel did not have a specific

26:06

checklist and he also looked at

26:08

and that this is one of the things

26:10

when I talk about this is

26:12

don't look for people that are

26:14

exactly like you so we once

26:16

had a joke this kid was

26:19

like a tall southern sort of

26:21

athletic talked and had a funny

26:23

sense of you know like actually

26:25

hysterically funny all the guys on his

26:27

team were exactly like him all dudes

26:29

all like him southern funny

26:32

six foot three you know where

26:34

they ranked in the company

26:36

out of 20 districts dead

26:38

last and he was a great

26:40

sales guy and I'll never forget

26:43

this was like that is

26:45

a cardinal sin of hiring

26:47

always trying to look for

26:49

the same person is you do

26:51

not look for the same person that

26:54

you are look complementary to your skills

26:56

not complementary like suck up kind of

26:58

thing you are the boss the thing

27:00

is that you don't do well They

27:03

should have that, especially if you're hiring

27:05

them for a task in your

27:07

80% that you don't want to

27:09

do anymore. They should not be like

27:11

you. Yeah. I was a joke

27:13

with our COO. He's like, programs

27:15

on the weekends and when he

27:17

has free time, he watches anime. He's

27:20

so completely different than me. I'm

27:22

like, that's exactly why I love

27:24

this guy, because he's like my

27:26

opposite. I don't want to hire me.

27:28

And I think that's... That's a hard thing

27:30

for a lot of people to get like

27:32

wrap their heads around or sort of understand

27:35

is and Brian Bircher was his name

27:37

and everyone in his district was the

27:39

exact same way I've never forgotten that

27:41

lesson and I did the opposite and

27:43

we were number one every single year

27:45

the point is that's not it wasn't

27:47

just that but I think there is something

27:50

to this is that. You have to take

27:52

that emotion out of it. You have

27:54

to be once or twice removed to

27:56

a certain degree. And also, very most

27:58

importantly, look for people who are... complementary

28:01

to your skills. I think it's hard though

28:03

because when you meet someone that's just

28:05

like you you connect so well and

28:07

then because you two connect you assume

28:09

everyone else on your team will connect

28:11

the same way but then all it

28:13

does is amplify all the things that they

28:15

don't like about you that they now

28:17

have to get it from two friends

28:19

but it's hard like you meet somebody like

28:21

oh my gosh you watch K dramas

28:23

you speak Italian you eat cookies as

28:25

its own nutritious food group, when I

28:27

need someone that has those three criteria.

28:30

And I'm like, show me your good

28:32

reads because you are my soulmate. I'm

28:34

like, you're on the bus, but it's

28:36

hard because when you're interviewing them,

28:38

you're like, oh my God, you're perfect.

28:40

Because our eagles see ourselves and the

28:42

other person. It's like, I'm looking in

28:45

a mirror. And I tell myself every

28:47

day, I'm perfect. I'm kind kidding. But.

28:49

In the reality, like when you see

28:52

those, it's hard. So anyone that's listening,

28:54

it's like, oh, I've totally hired

28:56

someone that's just like me,

28:59

it gets frustrating because you

29:01

as the business owner aren't hireable.

29:03

Right. So true. You know that.

29:05

You're not hireable. You know that.

29:07

You're not hireable. That's why you

29:10

started a business. And so then

29:12

you hire someone else that's like

29:14

you. Because you didn't apply for

29:16

your job. You created your job.

29:18

That can extend as well to just simply

29:21

having the same kind of interview styles

29:23

or being the same level of extrovert,

29:25

you know, or just jiving on the call

29:27

about similar hobbies or interests. It could have

29:30

nothing to do with necessarily their

29:32

suitability for the role that you've developed. I

29:34

think it's a very good point to

29:36

raise because it's very dangerous to go

29:38

into hiring and recruitment and being 100%

29:41

emotionally led. Like, it's an important component,

29:43

but it's important to be able to

29:46

insert that like a scaple. once you've done

29:48

all the due diligence that we were talking about

29:50

in that first phase, like you need to go

29:52

through and build the building blocks and the

29:54

foundation so that when you get to

29:56

a conversation, your intuition and your emotions

29:58

play an important part. And you want

30:00

to have that connection and that spark,

30:02

but it should not be the driving

30:04

force in your decision-making. And you need

30:07

to cross-reference and cross-check that with

30:09

the logical side of your brain. And you can't

30:11

do that if you haven't done the logical work

30:13

up front. Otherwise, you're just asking for a pain.

30:15

And you will end up building a team of

30:18

people that you simply can be friends

30:20

with and that you enjoy being around,

30:22

but can't make the hard decisions, can't

30:24

execute, according to the job maps that

30:26

you've developed, That's probably one of

30:28

the hardest things that I found

30:30

about recruitment because naturally I'm quite

30:32

an emotional individual that likes to connect

30:35

with people. I make friends with everyone.

30:37

I love people. That's why I'm in

30:39

HR. That's why I'm in this role.

30:41

This job is because I'm biased but you

30:43

know without people you do not have a

30:45

business period. You need good people. And

30:47

I look at everyone and I'm like

30:49

opportunity, potential. Yes, go you. And that if

30:51

you have too much of that in

30:54

hiring process. it's like let's hire everyone

30:56

because everyone's amazing and then you get

30:58

to a point where you're like that

31:00

person's actually really shit you know so

31:02

but if they were like you you can't

31:05

admit that because then you feel that you

31:07

are shit because then you're looking in the

31:09

mirror and you're like well wait they were

31:11

perfect why aren't they better because it's

31:13

either you have a identity crisis or

31:15

you take it personally a hundred percent

31:18

yeah and then you get to a point where

31:20

you get into this protecting your

31:22

decision and not considering it as a

31:24

sunk cost that you've hired the wrong

31:26

person and that's a whole not a kind

31:28

of situation when you you put the time

31:30

and F into hiring and it was a

31:32

misfire and that will happen especially with

31:35

the way that recruitment's heading with

31:37

with AI and I mean that's a

31:39

separate conversation but like the amount of applications

31:41

you can get now for jobs where

31:43

people look amazing and the tendency

31:45

for people to yeah People lie and

31:48

they can manipulate it and like even

31:50

like on socials they can. There's so many

31:52

AI tools available there to make you sound

31:54

and look better than you actually are that

31:56

if you're not leveraging those you're

31:59

on disadvantage. are leveraging those you have

32:01

to be like inspector gadget and make sure

32:03

you ask what I mean there's tons of

32:05

videos on the internet where you'll see even

32:07

at Coder so I'm not a developer I

32:09

don't do software engineering at all but I've

32:12

seen interviews where people are recording themselves being

32:14

interviewed and then they have AI open on

32:16

the screen right to the right of them telling

32:18

them all the answers that they mean like even at

32:20

like a recent conversation I had with a bunch of

32:22

CTOs they were talking about how they have to do

32:24

like live coding prompts where they have to

32:27

share their screen and they have to hire

32:29

specific software to make sure that they're the

32:31

ones doing the coding because I had found

32:33

this too. I've hired someone that didn't do

32:36

the work. I hired someone who did really

32:38

well interview style and then they had their

32:40

partner or someone living with them that did

32:42

the work and I got caught like that was that

32:45

happens when you hire remotely like those

32:47

things are like so true and oh I know

32:49

someone else listening has a horror story.

32:51

Tell me you've had this experience

32:54

experience experience too. Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean

32:56

less so now, but yes, absolutely. It's

32:58

a natural thing. It's almost like you

33:00

have to go through that. And the

33:02

only way for you to understand the value

33:05

of what we're talking about here, I

33:07

know we're talking a lot on sort

33:09

of step, really step one here in

33:11

a lot of ways, and then we

33:13

talked about it. We're like at step

33:15

zero almost, to a certain degree, is

33:17

to experience the pain of having the

33:20

wrong hire. So I think it's actually,

33:22

it's a blessing in a lot of ways

33:24

to. do it the wrong way because then

33:26

you experience the pain of getting somebody

33:28

on board and you never want to

33:30

repeat that mistake ever again. I didn't

33:32

need those blessings. I would have been okay. Yeah,

33:34

I mean if you keep repeating the same mistake

33:36

then you're just an idiot and you should

33:39

be listening to this show I suppose or

33:41

reading some book on how to hire. The

33:43

point is is that everyone's going to make

33:45

those mistakes and you can make them once

33:48

twice three times but after like the third

33:50

time you've made a bad hiring decision. It's

33:52

not them it's you it is you

33:54

100% it definitely is and I think

33:56

that the old maxim is true here

33:59

you know when you follow a process you

34:01

do hire slow and fire fast you

34:03

immediately figure out what your mistakes are

34:05

and let those people go quickly

34:07

but it's almost like you have to

34:09

hire bad people in order to realize I

34:11

really do need a system and maybe

34:13

I need a better way which is

34:16

hopefully what we're explaining here. Well would you

34:18

agree to be true like for me it's

34:20

every person I hire is an expense for

34:22

me for six months so when they join

34:24

my team I have to know that six

34:26

months of their salary is pure

34:28

investment. Because if they leave

34:30

or they're fired within six months,

34:32

they became an expense, not an

34:34

investment. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. All of these

34:37

components that will eventually go into,

34:39

they're all foundational, like they're

34:41

all important, they're all interlinked.

34:43

They all contribute to a

34:45

successful hire. Phase zero is foundational, but

34:48

also at the tail end of this

34:50

whole process, the onboarding. Yeah. The

34:52

process in which you onboard someone, you

34:54

welcome them in, you give them the

34:56

tools. the structure, the processes, the support,

34:58

the nurturing to succeed, that is one

35:00

of the strongest indicators of success. You

35:03

can do everything right. You can

35:05

even hire the right person objectively,

35:07

right? If they come in and they've got

35:09

a really poor onboarding experience,

35:12

you're severely undermining and

35:14

diminishing everything that you've done. And

35:16

there's principles of onboarding and there's

35:18

so many different ways to do

35:21

it, but ultimately it's like

35:23

they're in the company. Now everything

35:25

is geared towards mobilizing them and

35:27

getting them up to speed as

35:29

quickly as possible and getting

35:31

them living their job map. So

35:33

let's get into, we're on step zero

35:35

a bit, we talked about the accountability

35:38

chart, we talked about job maps, we

35:40

talked about the importance of core values,

35:42

let's get into sourcing candidates. Like you've

35:45

got all that stuff laid out, most

35:47

of that is pretext here. So how

35:49

do you start? This is the biggest

35:51

question I always get. Where do you

35:53

guys find the best people? Always the

35:55

biggest question. How would you answer that? How do you

35:57

do it? I know you've got sort of a

35:59

very specific... which you do it, which was

36:01

led to some incredible hires. Let's talk

36:03

about that. Well, I'm a big advocate of

36:06

your employees first and foremost

36:08

being ultimately your best hiring

36:10

managers. Right. So I think they have the

36:12

best understanding. I mean, okay,

36:14

it's taking a step back, sourcing

36:16

and ultimately selling the company that you're

36:19

offering as that subscription product

36:21

to a candidate is the essence

36:23

of how to attract the best talent. Like

36:25

you need to sell your company to

36:27

someone. It's not a case of. You're in

36:29

a position of power and I can have anyone

36:32

I want. You need to come at it from

36:34

an inverted perspective. What is it going

36:36

to take for you to steal the

36:38

attention to convince someone that you

36:40

are the defining career change, the

36:42

defining career move that is right for

36:44

them? And it may not be right.

36:47

And you don't want to oversell. It's

36:49

about discovery. But initially to attract and

36:51

to source, you need to develop that

36:53

level of that mindset that this is

36:55

a game of attraction and selling the

36:58

opportunity. And the best salesmen in that

37:00

position are, of course, your hiring team

37:02

and yourself, your employees, they get the

37:04

business. And if they're advocates of your

37:06

culture and what you stand for, your

37:09

vision, and everything, they can articulate, especially

37:11

the people that are in the

37:13

teams, where this role would be employed.

37:15

They are the best articulators of what people

37:17

can expect, why it's worth their time, what

37:19

value that this company can provide them. So

37:22

whether it's the fact that you mobilize your

37:24

people to hire through their own sources

37:26

or networks or networks. Or even if you

37:28

do some discovery first to talk to your

37:31

employees to understand, why are you here? What

37:33

do you get from the subscription? What

37:35

do you get from Tier 11? Why is this your career

37:38

choice? If you do that level of discovery,

37:40

that sets you up well for sourcing and

37:42

those subsequent conversations that need to happen. But

37:44

that would be my first number one tip

37:46

is like, put your focus in turning on

37:49

the company before running to indeed and

37:51

job boards and LinkedIn recruiter and. Take

37:53

a step back again, it's the foundational

37:55

stuff that makes hiring great. It's the

37:57

phase zero, and it's before we jump

37:59

into anything. You take a step back, you think,

38:01

you be intentional, why am I going to

38:03

go to a job board when I've got

38:05

employees here that could advocate for this

38:08

company and help us hire really good

38:10

people? So that's the first step. And

38:12

usually from there, it's a combination of

38:14

head hunting and outreach and job boards. We

38:16

can dive into both of those if you

38:18

want. Yeah. But you're saying first

38:21

and foremost is referrals. From the

38:23

people that are working for you that are

38:25

like, I enjoy working for this company. I

38:27

know someone who's talented. They're willing to

38:29

bet their name and reputation. Because

38:31

we've done it. Some of the best PAC members

38:33

have come from referrals, like a thousand percent.

38:35

Like we had one girl who gave us

38:37

five referrals. It was like her whole friend

38:40

group had started working for us and her

38:42

mom joked and said, are you HR or

38:44

are you a copyrighter for this company? You just

38:46

hang out with your friends all day? Yeah, like

38:48

it was amazing. It was like, wow. I was

38:50

like, how else do we infect your friends? Anyone

38:53

else you know, because it was just brilliant talent

38:55

after brilliant talent. But the challenge comes in as

38:57

like, for us, it worked. We had a referral

38:59

incentive program. So when they had someone that was

39:01

a good fit, provided that they and the other

39:04

person were in good standing, they got paid out.

39:06

And then we set up a process where they

39:08

could take the payment 30 days, six months for

39:10

one year. depending on when they

39:13

wanted to take the payout, it got

39:15

bigger. So if you were willing to

39:17

be like, yeah, I know this person

39:19

will still be here in a year.

39:21

It was like three or four X,

39:24

the payout of six months. So it's

39:26

like, do you want to wait? Or

39:28

if you know, like, maybe it's not

39:30

good fit. That always signaled to us

39:32

if it was a good one, but

39:35

then the other times where it's happened,

39:37

and they were the first ones to

39:39

say, I refer the wrong person, please

39:41

don't want this damage, my relationship with

39:44

you guys. So in that referral capacity,

39:46

it's like, it's amazing, but it also

39:48

comes with that small risk, and you've

39:51

experienced that too. Right, and I think

39:53

what's important, if you stand up a

39:55

referral program like that, it's very important

39:57

to make sure that that's just a

39:59

pipeline. to go into your

40:01

already established very comprehensive recruitment

40:04

process, right? Like this person isn't

40:06

cutting the cue. They're not going to

40:08

the front of the line. It's just an

40:10

in to getting pushed front and center,

40:13

especially if it's a referral from

40:15

one of your best people. And that's

40:17

what I would encourage. It's like referrals

40:19

are going to vary in terms of

40:21

their quality, of course. I mean, typically

40:24

you could correlate better referrals from

40:26

your top-tier performance. If I've got

40:28

someone at the agency or in my

40:30

company that I believe to be one

40:33

of them, you know, alignment to core

40:35

values goes above and beyond, hungry, smart,

40:37

and says, hey, I've got someone that I

40:39

know that could do this job, instantly

40:41

I'm going to be like, okay, if there

40:43

anything like you, then I'm very excited.

40:45

And typically someone of that caliber

40:47

is not going to be referring someone

40:50

that could potentially jeopardize their

40:52

reputation or their performance or

40:54

anything like that. You're usually going

40:56

to find the best referrals from

40:59

your best people. And developing

41:01

incentives for that to proactively

41:03

happen is good. In absence of that,

41:05

you don't need to overcomplicate it. You

41:08

can just reach out to your best

41:10

performers and say, look, or even post

41:12

it publicly to your company. It's also

41:14

a good assessment and a good

41:17

indicator of, do people really like working

41:19

at your company? You know, because if

41:21

you're getting nothing back and you're

41:23

hearing crickets, why they're not hungry

41:26

to hire people like them, or

41:28

similar to bring them to your company.

41:30

People always ask me, like, how do

41:32

you guys recruit? I know you've

41:34

got sort of a secret sauce

41:36

recruiting, but also let's talk about

41:38

the paid services and where you

41:40

stand there as well as job boards. It's

41:43

a tough one because it does depend

41:45

on the role. It depends on

41:47

exactly who you're hiring and what

41:49

market. And I think our approach

41:51

typically... is to do both simultaneously. It's

41:53

always to go with the job boards.

41:56

We mean, we always do job boards

41:58

because there's just a big market. people

42:00

that are looking at job boards. And

42:02

we also do head hunting on the

42:04

side. So I've had mixed success with

42:06

both. We've hired great people from both

42:09

avenues. I think one thing to remember

42:11

is the circumstance in which the

42:13

engagement is happening, right? When you reach out

42:15

to someone, they're not looking.

42:18

You're disrupting their life, their workflow,

42:20

their attention, and you are actively

42:22

putting an opportunity out in front

42:24

of them. And that goes back

42:26

to the selling component, right? to

42:28

really firmly understand what is

42:30

your company vision, your value,

42:33

your purpose, why are you

42:35

a better subscription product than

42:37

the company that they're currently

42:39

subscribed to. That's a selling

42:41

process, that's a negotiation process,

42:43

and you need to do that right.

42:45

And that's where the EQ comes in.

42:47

You cannot be a robot, you need

42:49

to be a salesman, and you

42:51

need to go in there and

42:53

you need to fight for that

42:55

candidate. This is so mind-boggling, by

42:58

the way. Like you're saying this,

43:00

I'm like, oh my God, this

43:02

is so obvious. And it's never

43:04

how I positioned it because I

43:06

have the assumption. Of course they

43:08

want to work with us, duh,

43:10

because they know everything about us.

43:12

But I'm coming into a conversation

43:15

halfway in the conversation

43:17

when they're like, what? Right.

43:19

Exactly. They're like, why are

43:22

you talking to me? Right. Like I'm

43:24

happy right now. What can you offer

43:26

me? and understand what matters to them.

43:28

And a lot of the people that we hire, it's a

43:31

lot of the same thing. I'm frustrated, I

43:33

can't make decisions, I can't get promoted, I

43:35

can't, you know, you're contacting people that have

43:37

potentially reached the ceiling of their company

43:39

or they're looking for growth, they're

43:42

looking for the next career-defining move,

43:44

and you're in a position to sell that

43:46

to them and to resubscribe them to a

43:48

culture or an environment that is more attractive

43:50

and can give them what is more attractive

43:52

and can give them what they need as a

43:55

professional. You know you've done you've done the job map

43:57

you've done the accountability chart you know very clearly what

43:59

they need to do and you know what to

44:01

expect from them and you can sell them that

44:03

clarity. You can sell them that opportunity that

44:05

you've already articulated and candidates love

44:08

it when you're confident and you

44:10

understand exactly what they're walking into

44:12

and you can speak to that and

44:14

you can speak to the challenges. I'm

44:17

incredibly candid and transparent, will be higher. That's

44:19

kind of how we approach it. Like I don't

44:21

sugar coat anything. There is a lot of change. This

44:23

is happening. You're going to run into these

44:25

problems. This is going to be a source

44:27

of frustration. If you pitch it as a

44:29

challenge, high performers love that. They lap it

44:32

up. Because high performers want growth, they

44:34

want challenge. And they're competitive. They're competitive,

44:36

100%. If you come at it like

44:38

that, the people that are not inclined

44:40

to be motivated by that will fall

44:43

to the wayside. So you're already doing

44:45

your initial screening in the initial conversations

44:48

you're having when you're outreaching

44:50

by how you communicate with

44:52

conviction and transparency around the

44:55

opportunity. So you can see like when you head

44:57

hunt. there's just a lot more

44:59

propensity to get higher quality because

45:01

it's more intentional and top top

45:04

performers are not looking well majority

45:06

of the time they're not looking

45:08

for jobs because they've locked in

45:10

probably to a well-paying job and

45:13

they're providing value they're loyal

45:15

to their company they're high

45:17

performing they're working hard and you're

45:19

coming along and saying I want your

45:21

loyalty your hard work your talent over

45:23

here whereas with a job board I'm

45:25

not saying that you don't find any amazing

45:28

talent on job boards. All of us have

45:30

been on job boards. It's more so that

45:32

you just have a higher chance of coming

45:34

across candidates that you just got

45:37

a wider spectrum of different people.

45:39

So there's more to sip through to get

45:41

to the needle, to get to the gold.

45:43

And your systems need to be set up

45:45

so you can do that sifting. There's so

45:47

much more to cover on this topic, like

45:49

I don't think we should stop the conversation

45:51

here. Like, no. I think we should come

45:53

back and keep the conversation going. But for

45:55

those that are listening and that's identifying with

45:57

a lot of this or like finding

45:59

can. usually like how do you

46:02

spell in cochulate for example? And

46:04

anyone that's listening that has questions

46:06

specifically that you want our head

46:08

of whatever his title will be

46:10

in two weeks because it's likely

46:12

gonna change, send us an email

46:14

to Josh at tier 11.com and

46:16

we'll we'll continue the conversation and

46:18

if someone's got some additional questions

46:20

we can bring that into the

46:22

conversation so we bring you the

46:24

perpetual traffic listener to the discussion.

46:26

So we have covered an awful

46:28

lot here on today's show, and

46:30

for you, the perpetual traffic listener,

46:32

I think this is one of

46:34

the most important episodes that we've

46:36

done in quite some time. So

46:39

in that vein, what we'd like

46:41

to do is do a part

46:43

two with Josh, myself, and Lauren,

46:45

going through the hiring process, and

46:47

then also get your feedback prior

46:49

to doing show to. We want

46:51

to know what your issues are

46:53

with hiring and how we can

46:55

troubleshoot them live and on the

46:57

air. So the best way to

46:59

do that is to email Josh

47:01

directly. It's Josh Hill and is

47:03

Josh at tier11.com. That's T-I-E-R, spell

47:05

out 11.com. Email him your questions

47:07

and make sure so that Josh

47:09

doesn't miss any of these in

47:11

the subject line of the email

47:13

at Josh at T-O-at-T-T-T-T-O-L-L-L-L-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O put in

47:16

the subject line of perpetual traffic

47:18

and he will will correlate all

47:20

of those questions and then we

47:22

will continue to go through the

47:24

11 step process on how to

47:26

hire superstars. So really appreciate you

47:28

all listening here today. Once again,

47:30

his email is Josh at Tier

47:32

11. Send him your questions, subject

47:34

line, perpetual traffic and we'll answer

47:36

them on the air. as we

47:38

record part two in a week

47:40

or so. So make sure that

47:42

where you're listening you do leave

47:44

a rating or a review especially

47:46

over on Spotify. Spotify is growing

47:48

like a weed for us right

47:50

now which is great to see

47:52

a lot of downloads over there

47:55

so I really appreciate all your

47:57

listening on Spotify. Leave us a

47:59

rating and review it really does

48:01

help us to get a wider

48:03

audio. here, help entrepreneurs, directors of

48:05

marketing, marketers like you, get better

48:07

at their craft and ultimately scale

48:09

and grow their businesses. So

48:11

I really do appreciate that.

48:13

And of course, check us

48:16

out over on our YouTube

48:18

channel over at perpetual traffic.com

48:20

forward slash YouTube. So on

48:22

behalf of my awesome amazing

48:24

co-host, Lauren E. Paturlo,

48:26

until next show, see ya.