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Financial Services. Human eggs are

0:38

only the size of a grain

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of sand, but the space they

0:43

can take up in your mind

0:45

can be gargantuan. Now there are

0:47

a lot of concerns with some

0:50

experts saying this procedure really just

0:52

serves as another way for companies

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to make money from stoking women's

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anxieties. Egg freezing's been presented as

0:59

a kind of girl boss panacea,

1:01

but what's the reality? That's

1:04

this week on Explain It to

1:06

Me. New episodes every week, wherever

1:09

you get your podcasts. There are a

1:11

lot of big stories in tech

1:13

right now, and somehow it feels like

1:15

every single one of them

1:18

has to do with Elon

1:20

Musk. All week on the

1:23

Vergast, we've been talking about

1:25

Doge and what Elon Musk

1:27

and his Mary Band of

1:30

engineers have been doing to

1:32

the federal government, and we've

1:35

been talking about Open AI.

1:37

Specifically, everything new with ChatGPT,

1:40

Elon Musk's attempt to buy

1:42

it, and what might happen

1:45

as AI takes over

1:47

everything, including

1:50

the government.

1:52

All that, on the Vergast,

1:54

wherever you get podcasts. podcast

1:56

on with Kara Swisher. My

1:59

recent interview with Ben Stiller,

2:01

whom Scott and I adore.

2:03

Ben is the executive producer

2:05

and go-to director of one

2:07

of my favorite shows, Severance.

2:09

We talk about all things

2:11

inny and outy and Ben

2:13

also shares his thoughts about

2:15

being an Elon Must target.

2:17

Enjoy the episode. Scott and

2:19

I will be back on

2:21

Friday. The M7 is a

2:23

little, it picks up, no it's

2:25

a much better mic, so.

2:27

Okay, how's that? That's good. You're

2:30

very manly. It's great. Okay,

2:32

good. Good. I really enjoy the

2:34

second season of his hit

2:36

series Severance and it's finally arrived

2:39

after almost three years. I

2:41

like the first season, but the

2:43

second season has really taken

2:45

it to a new level. This

2:47

is Apple TV's dystopian workplace

2:49

comedy thriller about a company that

2:52

taken work-life balance to the extreme.

2:54

In the world of severance, employees

2:57

at the company called Lumen

2:59

can choose to sever their brains

3:01

into two selves, one for

3:03

work and one for living. When

3:05

they clock in at 9 a.m.,

3:08

their brain is wiped clean of

3:10

the outside world, and when

3:12

they clock out at 5 p.m.

3:15

It's wiped clean of work.

3:17

I just love this show. I

3:19

can't explain why you have to

3:21

watch it. It's about a lot

3:24

of things that are going

3:26

on today, but it's a lot

3:28

of things that have gone

3:30

on for a while and it's

3:33

about who you are and the

3:35

unconscious. It's also very, very funny,

3:38

which is the best part

3:40

of it. Ben is the show's

3:42

executive producer and he's directed

3:44

many of the episodes. So we're

3:46

going to get into the themes,

3:49

big ideas and creative choices. for

3:51

Apple TV, it's reportedly generated

3:53

$200 million. for the streamer. We'll

3:56

talk about his experience working

3:58

with the tech giant, get his

4:00

views on how tech money is

4:02

impacting Hollywood, and how Trump's return

4:05

could affect the ability of

4:07

artists to get their stories made.

4:09

On that note, our expert

4:11

question this week comes from Bloomberg

4:14

reporter Lucas Shaw, who writes a

4:16

weekly newsletter called Screen Time, about

4:18

the collision of Hollywood and

4:20

Silicon Valley, so stick around. Support

4:29

for the show comes from Z-Biotics.

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5:37

for pivot comes from the MPR podcast

5:39

up first. Today's news landscape can be

5:41

pretty overwhelming. There are constant updates to

5:43

follow, late-breaking stories to track, and never-ending

5:45

fees to doom scroll. Trying to keep

5:47

up with all of it would make

5:49

anyone anxious, but it doesn't have to

5:51

be that way. If you'd like to

5:53

stay on top of the daily stories

5:55

that actually matter, without driving yourself insane,

5:58

you might want to check out the

6:00

MPR podcast. Up First covers the three

6:02

most important stories of the day in

6:04

just 15 minutes so you can learn

6:06

what you need to know and then

6:08

move on with your day. What does

6:10

that all mean? It means that you

6:12

can be informed without compromising your sanity.

6:14

Simply put, whenever NPR does something, you

6:16

should give it a trial because the

6:18

quality control, the pursuit of the truth.

6:20

And generally, they're just good actors. I

6:22

love NPR. So if you're looking for

6:24

more news and less noise and a

6:26

way to start your day off right

6:28

and informed, you can listen to the

6:30

Up First podcast from NPR today.

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things, people, love. Eligible items only,

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exclusion supply. only. Exclusion

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supply. Ben S. Welcome and

7:09

thanks for being on on. Hi

7:11

Kara S. I'm just curious, have you

7:13

ever thought about what your any would

7:15

be like? You know, recently I've been

7:18

thinking about a world in which you

7:20

can become a different person during working

7:22

hours. The person is called your any

7:24

and it is you but your brain

7:27

wiped of all the details of your

7:29

outy life. So the any is you

7:31

but not you, but not really you.

7:33

It's without a lot of information

7:36

or background. I'm just curious. Have

7:38

you ever thought about what your

7:40

any would be like? They're

7:42

less corrupted by life experience.

7:44

And so I guess my any

7:46

would be like a little

7:48

bit more, you know, fun loving,

7:51

innocent, playful, though I think

7:53

I am still playful in certain

7:55

situations. But I do feel

7:58

like I'd probably be. Maybe

8:00

like a little less sort of like

8:02

hunched and like stressed, you know, well,

8:04

you know, it's interesting because some people's

8:06

innies are not like on the show

8:09

like Hellies is quite angry, right? She's

8:11

an instantly angry and her outy is

8:13

also angry in a different way. Yeah,

8:15

I mean, I think Helli is, you

8:17

know, she's rebellious and curious and not

8:19

a rule follower and yeah, she's got

8:22

a lot of You know, it's like

8:24

I don't know if it's necessarily anger

8:26

as much as, you know, sort of

8:28

like this questioning of authority and not

8:30

taking things, you know, at face value

8:32

and accepting them just because they tell

8:35

us we should accept them. Right. So

8:37

you wonder where that comes from, right?

8:39

Because a lot of them do and

8:41

then they suddenly get rebellious pretty quickly.

8:43

All of them by reading books or

8:45

going down the hall to see a

8:48

potential boyfriend or whatever, they lose their...

8:50

They'd become outies pretty quickly, I would

8:52

say. Yeah, I mean, we looked at

8:54

it sort of like the first season

8:56

was these, these outies were sort of,

8:58

you know, kids, you know, they're pretty

9:01

young. They're only like two, Mark's only

9:03

probably like two years old, and Irving's

9:05

maybe was there, you know, a few

9:07

more years, but they're kind of innocent

9:09

and childlike. to a certain extent, but

9:11

also have developed personalities. And then as

9:14

the season evolved, and as the second

9:16

season is starting to evolve, I think

9:18

they're kind of becoming more adolescents and

9:20

more, you know, kind of, yeah, self-empowered

9:22

and questioning authority. And so I think

9:24

there's like a maturation that's happening with

9:27

them slowly. Right, and a cynicism that

9:29

goes with it because they're beginning to

9:31

see things. So, would you ever do

9:33

get severed? I'm just curious. I was

9:35

thinking I was talking about with my

9:37

wife, Amanda, like, would you let it

9:40

happen? She said it would be impossible

9:42

to sever me because I'd be the

9:44

same irritating person. I mean, I don't

9:46

know if I'd want to be totally

9:48

cut off from part of my life

9:50

experience. I think in retrospect when I

9:53

look back at you know painful situations

9:55

I've been in or things that have

9:57

happened in life that didn't feel good

9:59

I could imagine not wanting to go

10:01

through that pain but I also think

10:03

that you know one of the ideas

10:06

of the show is this questioning of

10:08

you know what can you actually cut

10:10

off right because we all have to

10:12

deal with with everything on some level

10:14

and I think it's also what I

10:16

was really attracted to when I first

10:19

read the script too was there so

10:21

many different ideas of what you know

10:23

severance could be a metaphor for and

10:25

I think we all do separate to

10:27

a certain extent when we you know

10:29

check out if you have a drink

10:32

or you know you take a gummy

10:34

or you you know watch a TV

10:36

show or if you go on your

10:38

phone I mean we all find ways

10:40

to cope with the everyday sort of

10:42

you know torrent of stuff that's coming

10:45

at us in life. Right, it's also,

10:47

I go to hardware stores and browse.

10:49

I do, I love them. So to

10:51

be clear, you're not the writer of

10:53

Severance, but your executive producer directed quite

10:55

a lot of the episodes. But you

10:57

have been the driver of it, it

11:00

feels like. You were supposed to star

11:02

in it, and you said you prefer.

11:04

to either direct or act, but not

11:06

both. So what attracted you to it

11:08

and the writer, Dan Erickson? Well, honestly,

11:10

you know, the script came into our

11:13

production company, and it was a spec

11:15

script, a script sent to see a

11:17

writing sample, and Jackie Kona worked. at

11:19

her company the time read it and

11:21

she gave it to me and I

11:23

read it and I was like this

11:26

is great it's a great writing sample

11:28

and also is anybody doing this show

11:30

it was so it was so unique

11:32

the tone of the dialogue it reminded

11:34

me of shows that I'd seen before

11:36

but it felt like its own thing

11:39

I I was one of the you

11:41

know ideas bandied about to be in

11:43

it but really the second I read

11:45

it I was like this is Adam

11:47

Scott and and and I felt just

11:49

a desire to make it and sometimes

11:52

it's hard to actually analyze what it

11:54

is that draws you to something. because

11:56

sometimes I think it's something subconscious you

11:58

don't necessarily know, but you have a

12:00

feeling for it. And I've tried to

12:02

listen to that over the years in

12:05

terms of just, you know, kind of

12:07

going with my gut feeling about something

12:09

and not even knowing what it is.

12:11

I just thought it was good. I

12:13

thought I wanted to see it in

12:15

my head and wanted to, you know,

12:18

wanted to make it happen. So that

12:20

was it. What was the thing about

12:22

it? Because if it reminded you, by

12:24

the way, you are the voice of

12:26

Kier Egan, right? The cult leader. I

12:28

am the voice of Kier Egan in...

12:31

The, uh, and I guess it's episode,

12:33

the weird video. Yeah, when you hit

12:35

100% and you got like the little

12:37

video of Kear on the mountaintop. So

12:39

it's not actually, it's an actor playing

12:41

Kear because we actually have the voice

12:44

of the real Kearigan that Mark Geller

12:46

portrays as when you see and he's

12:48

who, Keariggin is when you see him.

12:50

I mean, I think it was the

12:52

mix of humor and weirdness and the

12:54

basic. And the tone of the humor

12:57

which related to me to a lot

12:59

of comedies that I loved, the office

13:01

banter, this feeling of sort of like

13:03

this weird sort of like the movie

13:05

office space or Parks and Rec or

13:07

the office, you know, that sort of

13:10

genre of office workplace comedy. Yeah, where

13:12

it's like a lot of the humor

13:14

is based in sort of everyday stuff,

13:16

but then there was this other. layered

13:18

to it, which is these people don't

13:20

know who they are or where they

13:23

are, what they're doing, why they're doing

13:25

it. Yeah, and... I mean, it's sort

13:27

of like you put Mary Tyler Moore

13:29

in an absurdist, a sartre. play or

13:31

something. It's a little bit of no

13:33

exit, I guess. Because it's also, a

13:36

lot of friends of mine, they're like,

13:38

I don't want to watch it, it's

13:40

too scary. It's a thriller. I'm like,

13:42

no, it's a comedy. But it's also

13:44

a sidefigh, it's romantic, it's dystopian, it's

13:46

absurd. You've called it a workplace comedy.

13:49

And then it also has these aspects

13:51

of, you know, thriller, and then... also

13:53

the weird kind of Twilight Zone vibe

13:55

to it also. So, and I mean,

13:57

to me, that was what was exciting.

13:59

It's a combination of all these different

14:02

things. And when you see something like

14:04

that, where you haven't seen it before,

14:06

but in some way it triggers, you

14:08

know, these ideas for you, it makes

14:10

you want to lean into it. And

14:12

so, Dan had never had anything produced

14:15

before, ever before. And so, I had

14:17

obviously worked for a... long time, so

14:19

I, you know, he and I sort

14:21

of partnered up and it's always been

14:23

his vision, but I think we really

14:25

collaborated a lot in terms of the,

14:28

you know, just the feeling and the

14:30

vibe of it and the direction of

14:32

the story as we looked at, you

14:34

know, building it out from this pilot

14:36

that he'd written. It also has a,

14:38

I know it's, I don't know how

14:41

old this guy is, but do you

14:43

remember the, one of the last Planet

14:45

of the Apes, like beyond the, not

14:47

beyond, when they're sort of in century

14:49

city, a Planet of the Apes, it

14:51

has battle or conquest? I don't know,

14:54

one of the, I don't know, one

14:56

of the, it had, one of the,

14:58

it had that really, one of the,

15:00

it had that really, one of the,

15:02

it had that really, one of the,

15:04

it had that really, one of the,

15:07

it had that really, one of the,

15:09

it had that really, it had that

15:11

really, one of the, it had that

15:13

really, one of the, it had that

15:15

really, it had that really, it had

15:17

that really, it had that really, it

15:20

had that really, it had that really,

15:22

the, it had that really, the, the,

15:24

the, it had that really, the, it

15:26

had that, the, the, the, it had

15:28

that, the, Yeah, that's deeply rooted in

15:30

my, you know, my DNA of like

15:32

just things that I love to watch.

15:35

Or Omega Man, it had a little

15:37

Omega Man, for sure. Yeah, well, we're

15:39

all Charlton Heston. Yeah, a little bit

15:41

of Logan's runnish, you know, some of

15:43

that. But there's also a sense in

15:45

the moment right now that big tech

15:48

controls us, but this is about big

15:50

corporations controlling, which is not an uncommon

15:52

trope, there's been a million movies of

15:54

that. tech is like right now in

15:56

a lot of ways. Yeah, I mean,

15:58

I think, you know, technically, Lumen is

16:01

sort of a med tech company, you

16:03

know, and they go back to the

16:05

1860s and 70s when Kuregan founded it.

16:07

And, you know, it kind of is

16:09

really, you know, one of those companies

16:11

that does a lot of things and

16:14

you shouldn't quite know everything. that they

16:16

do and obviously the severed workers have

16:18

no idea what they do there and

16:20

I always think that's interesting when you

16:22

see the characters having to talk especially

16:24

for Mark in the first season when

16:27

he just talks about you know supposedly

16:29

I'm a corporate archivist or something like

16:31

you doesn't have any idea what he's

16:33

up to and I think that idea

16:35

of people who are working for giant

16:37

corporations with attack or whatever, you know,

16:40

who actually, you know, knows what they're

16:42

really working towards. I don't know, and

16:44

I, you know, I don't know about

16:46

that world that much, but it seems

16:48

to me. Well, it's a maximalization of

16:50

what is work even for, right? Like,

16:53

what's the idea of what works even

16:55

for when you're just a cog in

16:57

a larger picture of it? Yeah, and

16:59

I think that goes just back to

17:01

human nature. We all want to work.

17:03

We all want to have something to

17:06

do with our lives. And then there

17:08

are certain people who have ideas of

17:10

doing things that are, you know, who

17:12

knows what they wanted to do. I

17:14

mean, you could. pick any tech billionaire,

17:16

you know, what are their, you know,

17:19

what are their goals and their aims.

17:21

And, but ultimately we're all just people

17:23

who want to work and be happy

17:25

and, and, and fill our time with

17:27

something that we think is meaningful. And

17:29

it can be really distressing when you're

17:32

doing that and something you think is,

17:34

you know, Good or meaningful to you,

17:36

but then the overall goal of this

17:38

corporation you're working for might be totally

17:40

nefarious Yeah, the goal of the billionaires

17:42

tech billionaires is fascism as it turned

17:45

out and greed right? It's all about

17:47

greed Well power no power power is

17:49

it is where it is but or

17:51

they know better and they will tell

17:53

us what to do and that's what

17:55

this corp lumen is like that too.

17:58

We know we care, but then they

18:00

don't actually care in any way. So

18:02

there's a lot about the unconscious as

18:04

a model of knowing separating you from

18:06

doing severed but not entirely severed since

18:08

a lot of it creeps into the

18:11

consciousness like the happiness he has in

18:13

one world and deep unhappiness the others

18:15

and the idea that it would seep

18:17

into it. What does that mean to

18:19

have two senses of knowing and how

18:21

does it impact directing the actors because

18:24

the Actors obviously have to be two

18:26

different people when you're doing it. Yeah,

18:28

I mean, to me again, it's one

18:30

of the really interesting aspects of the

18:32

premise of the show is how much.

18:34

of a person can be cut off

18:37

from, I guess, you know, this, if

18:39

it's your brain, if it's your mind,

18:41

you know, there are technologies that are

18:43

approaching trying to do something like this,

18:45

but what is it that can cross

18:47

over if you don't remember anything about

18:50

your life? What are the innate human

18:52

desires or characteristics that make you a

18:54

person? And so that's, you know, that's

18:56

constantly what we're looking at and asking

18:58

in the show. And for the actors,

19:00

it's great because... That's a question they

19:03

can ask in literally every scene. They

19:05

can, you know, wonder about, well, how

19:07

much of this is coming through, you

19:09

know, my feeling for, you know, Dylan

19:11

and Irving, if they're having a conversation,

19:13

how much of Dylan's outy life is

19:16

coming through for Dylan, even if it's

19:18

not what the scene is about, or,

19:20

you know, for Adam Scott playing Mark,

19:22

he's constantly going back and forth between

19:24

that. And I think, you know, you

19:26

know, that's, to me, what's to me

19:29

what's really interesting what's really interesting about

19:31

the interesting about the show, what's really

19:33

interesting about the show, what's really interesting

19:35

about the show, what's really interesting about

19:37

the show, places where something transcends the

19:39

severance barrier, an emotion, or a feeling.

19:42

There's a time in an episode, I

19:44

think it's like, I forget which episodes

19:46

of season one, where Dylan says basically,

19:48

you know, do you think this love

19:50

transcends the severance barrier? And you know,

19:52

that's the question, you know, what transcends?

19:54

And what, when we suppress feelings, how

19:57

much can you, you know, really keep...

19:59

out of what your experience. I mean,

20:01

it's, you know, it goes to the

20:03

questions of post-traumatic stress disorder, you know,

20:05

suppressed memories, repressed memories, all those things.

20:07

You know, years ago I had a

20:10

friend who was in one of those

20:12

psychiatric things, but they did therapy every

20:14

day for hours and hours and was

20:16

trying to find out, you know, all

20:18

about themselves and figuring out where suppress

20:20

memories was. And they said, have you

20:23

ever been to therapy? never. I just

20:25

I don't want to know that much

20:27

about myself. Like something like that. It's

20:29

something offhand, which is probably rude to

20:31

someone who's in intense therapy. And they

20:33

said to me, And they were a

20:36

pretty unhappy person I would say and

20:38

they said to me you're blocking and

20:40

I said it's working Because I'm happy

20:42

and you're not like Which was kind

20:44

of an interesting moment because and I

20:46

thought about it watching this I thought

20:49

it would be really interesting to watch

20:51

as if you're a therapist of some

20:53

sort too like what what how do

20:55

you look at this because everything's about

20:57

the conscious and unconscious and what bleeds

20:59

into each other? I mean as a

21:02

person I've been in therapy and I've

21:04

talked a lot and you know that

21:06

question of how much talking about your

21:08

past or talking about memories and issues

21:10

you know there's questions about that how

21:12

much that really can help right you

21:15

know and and alternate therapies that are

21:17

much more you know in the body

21:19

and actually you're not really just about

21:21

analyzing and I think that to me

21:23

resonates because I feel like a lot

21:25

of this stuff is is internal and

21:28

there's even you know questions about generational

21:30

trauma you know that people talk about

21:32

now and really it's really interesting because

21:34

you know you think about like what

21:36

is cellularly in our bodies that we

21:38

carry with us yeah well except in

21:41

this case they use an advanced piece

21:43

of technology to create the sever right

21:45

to create the suppressing of the unconscious

21:47

or the conscious but Even though it's

21:49

an advanced technology that's happening here, it

21:51

seems like ever in the show is

21:54

living in the 70s, as you talked

21:56

about. It's a retro set. The costumes

21:58

feel older on certain, on all of

22:00

them, really. Talk a little bit about

22:02

that, why you wanted the look and

22:04

feel. There's also a lot of doubling

22:07

in duality, which was, there's people walking

22:09

together in twos or in, in, it's

22:11

a theme of two characters playing two

22:13

different people. Talk a little bit about

22:15

that the look and feel and feel

22:17

of why you. you had the retro

22:20

set and also the duality that's happening

22:22

visually. Yeah, well, In terms of the

22:24

outy world and the any world too,

22:26

what I thought that Dan had written

22:28

in the pilot was a very sort

22:30

of generic kind of world. And I

22:33

think he was commenting on that I

22:35

think in a way in terms of

22:37

like what working for a big corporation

22:39

can kind of turn you into. And

22:41

that sort of blandness, that corporate blandness,

22:43

I felt we should mirror in the

22:46

outside world. and I didn't want to

22:48

have any actual reference points like you

22:50

know like CNN or you know brand

22:52

names or things you know when you

22:54

saw the news just you know and

22:56

that that was sort of the idea

22:59

was like we don't quite know where

23:01

or when this is it's kind of

23:03

now but we don't want to have

23:05

any sort of touchstones or and even

23:07

in the technology and look I you

23:09

know grew up in the 70s And

23:12

I do feel like ever since cell

23:14

phones and smartphones were invented, it's really

23:16

changed our lives, obviously, but also storytelling,

23:18

because so many things that you'd have

23:20

to do before, that you tell a

23:22

story, you'd have to go and do

23:25

research or whatever, and you just get

23:27

on your phone, it's not very cinematic.

23:29

You know? And that's why I like

23:31

a prison story, like inside of a

23:33

prison. you don't have access to that

23:35

technology. Prisoners aren't allowed. So, and in

23:38

a way, severance is a little bit

23:40

of a, has a prison aspect too.

23:42

Yeah, it's got the Stanford Prison experiment,

23:44

that vibe to it too. Yeah, and

23:46

I think, you know, that that world

23:48

should be as kind of interesting and

23:51

off and generic in its own way

23:53

as the any world, the outy world.

23:55

And so that's kind of why we.

23:57

sort of gravitated towards that. And so

23:59

the duality aspect though is just inherent

24:01

in the theme. So just that's a

24:04

natural sort of you know tendency for

24:06

us then to look for in the

24:08

imagery that because it's just it's just

24:10

telling the story in a way and

24:12

it lends itself to that. So you

24:14

know I think that's That's part of

24:16

just the sort of visual world of

24:19

the show. And I think when you

24:21

have a clearest theme and you have

24:23

an idea that's really specific, you know,

24:25

you want to stick with that theme

24:27

and let that, everything build off of

24:29

that so it feels organic and not

24:32

forced, hopefully. And that's, I think, the

24:34

great thing about this idea is that

24:36

it allows for that. Yeah, I went

24:38

back and looked at the movements, and

24:40

it's all duality. It's really interesting, but

24:42

it also has a level of suspense,

24:45

since there is what the viewer knows

24:47

and what two different people know, and

24:49

then the pervasive sense of withholding information

24:51

in a total surveillance environment, right? There's

24:53

a lot of misinformation happening here in

24:55

this environment, largely by the lumen executives

24:58

who are not severed, by the way,

25:00

who know both sides. Right. And we

25:02

are constantly, you know dealing with that.

25:04

question all the time, the question of

25:06

how much Lumen knows, how much they're

25:08

listening to, how much they're seeing, you

25:11

know, within the severed world. I think

25:13

there's always a question of how much

25:15

they're letting happen, how much they know

25:17

is happening, how sometimes the technology isn't

25:19

quite great there. So there's like, you

25:21

know, there are places they can find,

25:24

like, you know, like a closet or

25:26

something like that. And, you know, that's

25:28

like a specific aspect of the reality

25:30

of the show that, you know, maybe

25:32

if we were doing this as a

25:34

modern day show, everybody would be like,

25:37

oh, wait, well, there's no way you

25:39

could do that because they would have

25:41

microphones everywhere. But I think there's something

25:43

to the sort of clunky nature of

25:45

this cooperation, too, that is kind of

25:47

fun. And, you know, we don't have

25:50

any, there's one security person in the

25:52

first season, Grainer. Early on we had

25:54

experimented and thought about having security guards

25:56

on the floor and any time we

25:58

ever brought security guards in It always

26:00

felt to me like it turned into

26:03

like a Star Trek episode or something

26:05

just there was something about it and

26:07

and we realized oh well like the

26:09

more we don't tell the more we

26:11

don't show the more the audience has

26:13

a chance to fill it in themselves

26:16

and that's always been for me a

26:18

little bit of the question as I

26:20

put the show out into the world

26:22

when we were making it in the

26:24

first season where we made all nine

26:26

episodes and nobody had seen it's like

26:29

oh I hope people will buy this

26:31

conceit because you know it's you have

26:33

to buy into it but it's there

26:35

because I feel like those aren't the

26:37

questions as much that I'm as interested

26:39

in as opposed to the sort of

26:42

greater themes of the show. Right, absolutely.

26:44

I mean, it's also a return to

26:46

work story, which is sort of in

26:48

the news right now, this idea of

26:50

return to work. Did you understand that

26:52

at the time? You had a COVID

26:55

period in here when you were making

26:57

it. Yeah, not at all. I mean,

26:59

yeah, the first season we made starting

27:01

right when COVID started, and we were

27:03

delayed actually six months in production because

27:05

of it. So when the show was

27:08

finished and people were starting to go

27:10

back to work and some, a writer

27:12

wrote about it as like, oh, this

27:14

is like one of the first return

27:16

to work shows, it was purely, you

27:18

know, that's just happenstance. So it was

27:21

just, I think, the timing of how,

27:23

how. you know, the show came out

27:25

and it seemed like the both aspect

27:27

of being sort of severed from everybody

27:29

else in the world, you know, as

27:31

we were, and that weirdness, even making

27:34

the show where the actors were, you

27:36

know, we were, first season, everybody was

27:38

in full PPE and, you know, face

27:40

masks. Yeah, I don't remember any of

27:42

that. I don't remember. Blocking is working.

27:44

So it's like, do you remember that?

27:47

I'm like, I don't. Do you know

27:49

that Trump was president before? You know,

27:51

I don't remember that. It's not going

27:53

very well right now. We'll get to

27:55

that in a minute. But no, flocking,

27:57

it's working. I want to get into

28:00

the business of this in a second,

28:02

but do you have a character you

28:04

particularly vibe with on the show? I

28:06

mean, I really enjoy all the characters

28:08

equally. the key, I think, because, you

28:10

know, he's the protagonist, but... Myth chick,

28:13

that guy. Milk chick, yeah. Miltick. Yeah,

28:15

I mean I'm excited for for this

28:17

season with Miltchick too just because I

28:19

feel like you know he's an enigma

28:21

and he can be scary and but

28:23

there's so many different aspects to who

28:26

he is that you know make him

28:28

you know a really fascinating character and

28:30

you know everybody works for this corporation

28:32

so at the end of the day

28:34

there's a chain of command and I

28:36

think that's something it's interesting to us

28:38

in the show is sort of like

28:41

how even if it's this weird kind

28:43

of world or these maybe possibly you

28:45

know scary characters that work at the

28:47

company they're also working and so they

28:49

have to deal with all of the

28:51

office politics too. The defiant jazz scene

28:54

was my favorite in the entire when

28:56

they were dancing. So awkward. I've been

28:58

at that party. I've been at that

29:00

office party where they have a cake

29:02

in the office. They do pineapplesier. Yeah,

29:04

the pineapple fruit plate as a way

29:07

of luring people back, you know, it's

29:09

like sort of like, you know, the

29:11

shitty little, you know, perks that you

29:13

get that, you know, in contrast what

29:15

these people have experienced, that that's huge

29:17

for them. I mean, though they are

29:20

trying it in season two on the

29:22

outings. It's funny to me that when

29:24

they have an office party, it's still

29:26

just them. There's nobody else there. So

29:28

it's just like the lights change, but

29:30

it's still the same four people who

29:33

are like mingling with each other. So

29:35

that was one of my favorite sort

29:37

of setups that we had with, you

29:39

know, the idea of like, well, okay,

29:41

where is this going to go? And

29:43

all of a sudden, you know, when

29:46

you get this next level perkick. is

29:48

like he's kind of like you know

29:50

obviously the best dancer there such a

29:52

good dancer an amazing dancer from Mel

29:54

Tillman and Adam the best like white

29:56

guy dancing I think I've ever seen

29:59

it quite good he didn't he didn't

30:01

do his you know biting his lip

30:03

the white man overbike yeah It's really

30:05

fun to be able to explore that.

30:07

To me, the weirdness of that moment

30:09

is kind of like, well, that's what's

30:12

in the show, it's motivated because it's

30:14

a party, it's a perk, you understand

30:16

why they're doing it, but it's also

30:18

just so weird and it's really fun

30:20

to be able to like explore that.

30:22

We'll be back in a minute. Have

30:33

you ever spotted

30:35

McDonald's hot, crispy

30:37

fries right as

30:39

they're being scooped

30:42

into the carton?

30:44

And time just

30:46

stands still. We're

31:44

taking Box Media Podcast on the

31:46

road and heading back to Austin

31:48

for the South by Southwest Festival

31:51

March 8th to the 10th. What

31:53

is real? We'll be doing special

31:56

live episodes of hit shows including

31:58

pivot. That's right. The dogs go

32:00

into the great state of Texas.

32:03

Where should we begin? with Esther

32:05

Pirell, a touch more with Sue

32:07

Bird and Megan Rapino, not just

32:10

football with Cam Hayward, and more,

32:12

presented by SmartShe. The Vox Media

32:14

Podcast stage at South by Southwest

32:17

is open to all South by

32:19

Southwest badge holders. We hope to

32:22

see you at the Austin Convention

32:24

Center soon. Visit Vox media.com slash.

32:31

So I would talk a little bit about

32:33

the business. Have you been surprised how popular

32:35

it's gotten? I know succession got more popular

32:38

in the second season, right? And Severance was

32:40

Apple's first new series order after the company

32:42

launched its streaming service. And it was trying

32:44

to do an HBO thing. That was very

32:47

clear. A place for big talent to come

32:49

and make what they want with big budgets.

32:51

Now Severance is reportedly. costing a lot of

32:53

money and there have been cuts at Apple

32:55

pulling the budget as the second season was

32:58

being produced all across the way. But at

33:00

the same time, parent Analytics was noting

33:02

that you might be generating $200 million

33:04

for Apple in terms of subscriptions and

33:07

everything else. And at the same time,

33:09

we're about to maybe announce your third

33:11

season. Talk a little bit about the

33:13

calculations here of how you look at

33:16

it because it used to be so

33:18

much easier. Now you made mostly movies

33:20

over TV shows. Talk a little bit

33:23

about the calculations, because it's a weird

33:25

economic environment at the same time. Honestly,

33:27

yeah, I know very little about it.

33:29

It's a weird world to be in.

33:31

From the beginning, it was a new

33:34

strange experience, because when we started developing

33:36

the show, Apple wasn't even up

33:38

yet. And someone called up and said,

33:40

yeah, Apple's going to do a streaming

33:42

service too. And I remember like laughing,

33:44

like, who's ever, okay, everybody's doing streaming

33:47

service. This is crazy. And we went

33:49

out and pitched the show to different

33:51

HBO all these places and Apple was

33:53

the only one that bought it and

33:55

They weren't even up yet. So what

33:58

did the others say about it? Well This

48:51

week on profgy markets, we speak

48:53

with Alice Hahn, China economist and

48:56

director at Green Mantle. We discuss

48:58

the potential impact of tariffs on

49:00

China's economy, how Tesla is fairing

49:02

against BYD, and how a Trump

49:04

presidency could shape China's foreign and

49:06

domestic policies. Trump is the biggest dove

49:09

in a house full of hawks. Everyone

49:11

else around him wants to push him

49:13

towards being more hawkish in China, on

49:15

trade, on tech, on military. And I

49:17

sense that, you know, whether it's rubio

49:19

or hexeth, or hexeth, or walt. So

50:22

you recently joined me in a not

50:24

so exclusive club. We've both been called

50:26

names by Elon Musk. I am seething

50:28

with hate in an asshole in case

50:30

you're interested. I'm not going to repeat

50:32

what he said about you. You know

50:34

what he said. We're not repeating that

50:37

one. Because I'm a good girl. Okay.

50:39

I don't say that word anymore. I

50:41

used to when I was a kid.

50:43

We don't do it anymore. But he

50:45

seemed upset that you endorsed Kamel Harris

50:47

and then. after you wondered and interviewed

50:50

whether Tropic Thunder could be made today

50:52

and I wish there was as you

50:54

know I'm desperate for Tropic Thunder too.

50:56

He wanted you to be more upset

50:58

about how Wocus is supposedly ruined comedy.

51:00

Talk a little bit about this moment.

51:02

That makes no sense to me. I

51:05

have no idea what that means. Well

51:07

you think he's on the up and

51:09

up now these days because he makes

51:11

so much sense about everything he does.

51:13

But, but you know. I have very

51:15

little interest in his whole thing. So

51:17

tell me why, because he was retweeting

51:20

a daily mail headline that read, Ben

51:22

Stiller says, Woke America killed edgy or

51:24

comedy. That's not what you said at

51:26

all, from what I could read. No,

51:28

not, yeah, that was totally, yeah, that

51:30

was not at all. It's opposite of

51:33

what I was saying. Yeah. I don't

51:35

know why he has so much time

51:37

on his hands that he's retweeting something

51:39

that was written about me. Yeah. I

51:41

know he really likes Tropic Thunder thunder

51:43

great. He does. you know, after that,

51:45

that, you know, the Nazi salute, the

51:48

double Nazi salute. Yeah, I'm just, I'm

51:50

not, yeah, I'm not into it, never

51:52

was into it. And I think, you

51:54

know, what's happening, honestly, not that anybody

51:56

needs my opinion, but what's happening in

51:58

terms of him. of interest, all of

52:00

that stuff is really, really concerning. It

52:03

is absolutely the two of them together.

52:05

And what he cares about pop culture

52:07

and all that stuff, it's like, you

52:09

know, who gives a shit, you know?

52:11

He wanted you to agree with him

52:13

that Tropic Thunder couldn't be made, isn't

52:15

that awful? It goes with the narrative

52:18

of, isn't everybody trying to stop us,

52:20

because we're the greatest victims on earth,

52:22

us rich people are the greatest. I

52:24

think that's down that lane, something like

52:26

that lane, something like that. I don't

52:28

think it makes anybody a victim. I

52:31

mean, what the temperature is in terms

52:33

of what movies are getting, you know,

52:35

made or not. The reality is, yeah,

52:37

sure the environment is different and it

52:39

would be tougher to get it made.

52:41

I don't know if it could get

52:43

made or not. I think it would

52:46

be harder to get it made. But

52:48

that doesn't mean I'm commenting on, you

52:50

know, the state of our, like, of

52:52

our culture. I think it's just... He

52:54

wanted you to agree with it. Yeah,

52:56

but you don't, okay. But one of

52:58

the things that people are worried about

53:01

is a Trump chill in Hollywood. Now,

53:03

obviously, that's happening in tech. Everybody showed

53:05

up at the inauguration, all the tech,

53:07

richest people in the world. New York

53:09

magazine recently quoted anonymous producers, who said

53:11

there's more fear in the executive suites

53:14

now than there's ever been. There seems

53:16

to be a pulling back. Disney pulled

53:18

a trans character, for example. Is there

53:20

any indication for you that Hollywood executives

53:22

would be more hesitant fun? projects with

53:24

political messages, quite a few of yours

53:26

have them. Now, besides sports, that you

53:29

endlessly blew sky about, which I don't

53:31

understand any of your references. You're also

53:33

very political. You don't go away from

53:35

it. I believe they're a basketball team,

53:37

in any case. You are a political,

53:39

but do you think about that at

53:41

all? Yeah, sure, I think about it.

53:44

I mean, yeah, I don't know, like

53:46

after... You know, when October 7th happened

53:48

and, you know, yeah, I was trying

53:50

to think of like, well, what should

53:52

I say? And it was really, I

53:54

realized like I'm not going to be

53:56

able to express myself in a tweet

53:59

or. or a blue sky post, or,

54:01

you know, it's just, I don't want

54:03

to go into that arena of like

54:05

having to sort of like, distill some

54:07

idea down into a thought that then

54:09

people are going to debate and you

54:12

know what's going to happen with that.

54:14

But so to me, it's more a

54:16

question of like, where do I express

54:18

myself and what do I do? And

54:20

I don't think having to legislate all

54:22

this stuff on the, you know, on

54:24

your phone all the time or as

54:27

much as sometimes there's an an instinct

54:29

to, I'm going to really do well with

54:31

or it's just not going to make

54:33

me happy to do that. But I

54:35

feel like that's why I wrote a

54:37

little something about October 7th and just

54:39

put it out there. because I wanted

54:41

to express myself. I just think it's

54:43

the social media debate and what it

54:45

turns into is not, never really goes

54:47

well. What about the art itself? Do

54:49

you think how it will be impacted

54:51

by the time we're in if you

54:53

could look forward? I know, I interviewed

54:55

Rachel Maddo recently and we talked about

54:58

her podcast about Nixon's corrupt vice president,

55:00

Speeragnet, called Bagman. It's being adapted into

55:02

a feature film you were reportedly set

55:04

to direct. Do you think about doing,

55:06

are you directing that? Is that correct?

55:08

Yeah, I'm trying to get that movie

55:10

made. We almost got it made a

55:13

couple years ago. I think it's more

55:15

important now. Look, I think artists

55:17

are incredibly inspired now to speak out.

55:19

in creative ways about what's going on

55:21

in our country. My daughter is an

55:23

actor, she just graduated from drama school,

55:26

she's a writer, and she wants to

55:28

make movies, and she said, you know,

55:30

all I want to do right now

55:32

is make stories about women and what

55:34

they're going through because of what's going

55:36

on in our country right now. So

55:38

I think people are really inspired, and you're

55:40

going to see a lot of amazing

55:43

art come out of it. Does it make

55:45

you want to do more? Because I mean angels

55:47

in America came out of Reagan, right? It came

55:49

out of that anger. A lot of that art

55:51

came out of things. Yeah, I think you have to

55:53

be true to who you are and you know in

55:56

terms of what you create, but yes for sure and

55:58

I think we all have to like a... and kind

56:00

of look at ourselves and say, okay,

56:02

you know, what message are we putting

56:04

out there with whatever it is we

56:06

make? But even if a comedy or

56:08

drama or whatever it is, it doesn't

56:10

all have to be political, it has

56:13

to be true to who you are,

56:15

and, you know, we're all affected by

56:17

the world that we're in, so it's

56:19

hopefully going to be a reflection of

56:21

the experience that you're having in some

56:23

way. I don't put that pressure on

56:25

people to have to go out and

56:27

do something, and do what feels right

56:29

for you. Is there something that inspires

56:31

you now at this moment? Because I

56:33

mean, do you get feel more... I

56:35

don't feel like you're going to be

56:37

making night at the museum seven at

56:40

this point or whatever we're on. Whatever

56:42

we're on. Well, I mean, honestly, though,

56:44

I still think it's good to have,

56:46

you know, stuff that you can watch

56:48

that can make you laugh and give

56:50

you a retreat. What's it called, heist?

56:52

Oh, tower hist? Tower hist is so

56:54

good. Do you know what? You know

56:56

what? We shot that we shot that

56:58

in the Trump Tower. We shot that

57:00

in the Trump Tower. We shot that

57:02

in the Trump Tower. The movie was

57:04

originally called Trump Tower Heist, but Trump

57:07

wanted them to pay him for the

57:09

use of his name, so they changed

57:11

it to Tower Heist. Oh, wow. I

57:13

don't think anybody ever heard that. Oh,

57:15

wow. Good to know. Sorry. Yeah, but

57:17

no, look, I like many people after

57:19

the election who didn't vote for Trump,

57:21

kind of wanted to just sort of

57:23

hide for a moment and just not

57:25

have to deal with the reality. And

57:27

I think, you know. Now it's sort

57:29

of this moment in time where it's

57:32

like, okay, this is the reality we're

57:34

in. It's not the first term. We

57:36

have to look at it, look at

57:38

ourselves and do what we feel is

57:40

right to, you know, to be who

57:42

we want to be in this moment.

57:44

And so I think it's that should

57:46

all be, you know, what you're expressing

57:48

and it should all be part of.

57:50

you know, what you want to say.

57:52

So yeah, that movie Baghdad, I'd love

57:54

to get that movie made right now

57:56

because I feel like it sort of

57:59

tells the story of what happens when

58:01

people do the right thing in the

58:03

face of somebody who's trying to, you

58:05

know, go past the bounds of what

58:07

their power is. Right. And Speer Ragney

58:09

is quite a character. He's such a

58:11

fantastic kid. That was a great podcast.

58:13

I like all of Rachel's podcast a

58:15

lot. So my last question where we

58:17

go is where we go is this

58:19

idea of influences. mother and father, the

58:21

great Jerry Stiller and Anne Mira, she

58:23

died in 2015, I think that's right,

58:26

and he died in 2020. You're working

58:28

on a documentary about them right now.

58:30

Can you talk a little about this?

58:32

And I imagine they gave you a

58:34

lot of advice about entertainment, business, and

58:36

storytelling over the years. Is there any

58:38

about their careers from your perspective that

58:40

indoors and what influences you today? Yeah,

58:42

I mean, they work together as a

58:44

comedy team. They got married and in...

58:46

1953 and they weren't making any money

58:48

as actors both separately trying to you

58:50

know get work and then my dad

58:53

came up with this idea of them

58:55

doing a comedy act together about who

58:57

they were and then we were born

58:59

my sister and I and so grew

59:01

up around it all and for me

59:03

it was exploring in the movie this

59:05

life of living in a household that

59:07

was constantly part of their creative process

59:09

because they would work at home and

59:11

they would write together and they would

59:13

perform and come home and you know

59:15

be parents and actors and it was

59:18

all sort of intermingled and then of

59:20

course you know you grow up and

59:22

I have got married and had kids

59:24

and became an actor and my kids

59:26

want to be actors and I was

59:28

so looking at you know what is

59:30

it inside of us that the creative

59:32

process is and how that connects with

59:34

relationships that we have in our life

59:36

when you do this kind of thing.

59:38

You know, when you go to an

59:40

office job, you know, you go to

59:42

the office, then you want to maybe

59:45

sever and not think about it, right?

59:47

You know, but in a life where

59:49

you're a creative person, it melds through

59:51

and it's always part of who you

59:53

are. So I, it affected my parents'

59:55

marriage. They stayed married for 60 plus

59:57

years, but there was a lot of

59:59

stress and tension in there and I

1:00:01

was able to my dad recorded. a

1:00:03

lot of stuff, audio recordings, a great

1:00:05

film, and he recorded them rehearsing and

1:00:07

then sometimes the tape recorder would keep

1:00:09

going and they'd get into an argument

1:00:12

or they'd talk about what was going

1:00:14

on in their life. So I was

1:00:16

able to take those tapes. and kind

1:00:18

of see something that I hadn't seen

1:00:20

in their private life together and how

1:00:22

they navigated this relationship and their careers

1:00:24

together. And when does that, where is

1:00:26

that coming off? It's gonna be Apple

1:00:28

movies. Yeah. And it's gonna come out

1:00:30

later this year, I think. So last

1:00:32

question, what then influences you today about

1:00:34

doing this from them? What did you

1:00:37

come away with? I think I came

1:00:39

away with a better understanding of my

1:00:41

parents in terms of my dad's creative

1:00:43

process in particular because he was very

1:00:45

focused on that. And sometimes it sort

1:00:47

of took him away from the family

1:00:49

in a way, just kind of in

1:00:51

his head a little bit. And I

1:00:53

think I inherited that from him. And

1:00:55

I think it's kind of made me

1:00:57

look at my own relationship with my

1:00:59

kids and my wife. have a little

1:01:01

more perspective on that and maybe kind

1:01:04

of you know I don't know like

1:01:06

less angst about that because you know

1:01:08

an appreciation of like okay we've gotten

1:01:10

to this place things have not always

1:01:12

been perfect but you know you keep

1:01:14

evolving and both my parents I think

1:01:16

were were constantly evolving and questioning themselves

1:01:18

and looking inward and I think that's

1:01:20

that's something I got out of it.

1:01:22

All right Ben thank you so much

1:01:24

I really appreciate it. I really appreciate

1:01:26

it. Great talking to you. All right,

1:01:28

by Carra. On with Cara Swisher is

1:01:31

produced by Christian Castor Russell, Kiteri Yoakam,

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