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openly heterosexual podcaster.

1:57

And I'm Scott Galloway. Where are you,

1:59

Scott? You just... somewhere strange with

2:01

the wallpaper situation going on? I

2:03

am at the Colony Hotel in

2:05

Palm Beach where I just returned

2:07

from getting from the Department of

2:09

Motor Vehicles at Palm Beach Gardens

2:11

where my son is now a

2:13

licensed driver. How exciting. That's great.

2:16

I thought you were at Maralago

2:18

or something like that. No. I

2:20

ran into my friend Amendment Oz

2:22

yesterday and he came over and

2:24

he introduced me to RFK Jr.

2:26

They're hanging out. Oh, no. And

2:28

he gave me the cold shoulder.

2:30

I think it's because I've used

2:32

to have him on my pot.

2:34

I don't know. He was definitely

2:36

like cold to me. Who? R-F-K?

2:38

No, Memon and I are friends. R-F-K,

2:40

yeah, was noticeably cold to me. He's

2:43

very handsome, though. I did notice that.

2:45

Because he's a crank. Do you see

2:47

the latest? I don't want to go

2:49

into it. Four months until autism is

2:51

solved. That not just that all his

2:54

stuff he's taking information off he's saying

2:56

vaccines aren't necessarily a good thing on

2:58

the just he's such a fucking disaster

3:00

these people are setting themselves up for

3:03

a lot of pain years from now.

3:05

It's just the murders he is committing

3:07

right now as far as I'm concerned.

3:09

Well, in addition to the additional death,

3:12

disease, and disability across our populace, it's

3:14

made traffic much worse for me. That's

3:16

what I'm really upset about. Okay, all

3:18

right, okay. The traffic is awful down

3:21

here. But anyways, I'm at the Colony

3:23

Hotel, which I affectionately call, I think

3:25

there's a... whole cadre or cohort of

3:27

what I call 64 hotels and service

3:29

establishments and that is because of the

3:32

unprecedented prosperity that we've started to believe

3:34

is a normal operating system in America

3:36

in a series of fiscal and monetary

3:38

policies that literally on tax policies cram

3:41

all this prosperity in the top 1%

3:43

and the fact there's a lag time

3:45

you can't build a four or five

3:47

star hotel in a year it takes

3:50

10 years. These places are... overcapacity and

3:52

so I describe them as 64s and

3:54

that is six star prices with four

3:56

star service and These places are so

3:59

expensive and I don't mind paying a

4:01

lot of money if you get great

4:03

service. And you do good great service

4:05

at the Beverly Hotel or I don't

4:07

know, the Langham in London. I mean

4:10

there's just a ton of great hotels,

4:12

a great service. This is not one

4:14

of them. This is not one of

4:16

them. All right, Colony Hotel with RFK

4:19

there. That's all I need to know.

4:21

I'm not going there. No, RFK is

4:23

not here. I don't want to disparate.

4:25

It's a beautiful hotel in Palmage, by

4:28

the way. It's 74 and sunny. God,

4:30

it's so nice here. Good for you.

4:32

It's very nice here in Washington, too.

4:34

Anyway, we've got a lot to get

4:37

to today. There's also a lot of

4:39

tech stuff going on, including Metas. big

4:41

antitrust trial and of course women in

4:43

space, we'll get to that. But first,

4:45

let's get to tariffs because first, President

4:48

Trump now says nobody is getting off

4:50

the hook on tariffs despite granting exemptions

4:52

for smartphones, computers, and other electronics late

4:54

Friday, which is a lie apparently. Trump

4:57

posted on true social on Sunday that

4:59

products are just moving to a different

5:01

tariff bucket. He also says that semiconductor

5:03

tariffs are coming, but tariff exemptions or

5:06

whatever Trump wants to call them are

5:08

good news for Apple and video. and

5:10

Dell, at least for the time being.

5:12

Of course, Scott predicted Apple's reprieve on

5:15

our Friday episode. Let's listen. You want

5:17

to enrage a cult? Take iPhones to

5:19

$3,500. And then you're going to see

5:21

the largest, the most valuable company in

5:24

history, and American company lose the value

5:26

of the German GDP over the course

5:28

of a year. You're going to take

5:30

push back people's retirements. Apple's going to

5:32

have to withdraw all sorts of growth

5:35

plans. And you want to piss off

5:37

every, every. millennial and Gen X in

5:39

the world, take their iPhones at 3500

5:41

bucks. Apple is not going to have

5:44

any tariffs here. So in the interim

5:46

for that, you were absolutely correct, very

5:48

good, but what was... And then I

5:50

was not correct, right? Yes, I know.

5:53

So what is the deal? Because Letnik

5:55

started, everyone thought Letnik was off script,

5:57

but then Trump underscored and added more

5:59

confusion to something that was already confusing

6:02

and seems very oligarchic and sudden and...

6:04

shifting. Apple was trying very hard to

6:06

deal with this. They're air-lefting 600 tons

6:08

of iPhones from India last week to

6:10

reportedly beat the tariffs. This flip-flopping is

6:13

really bad. Carolyn Leavitt. Of course it

6:15

goes against what they were saying. We're

6:17

going to make things in the US.

6:19

Karen Leavitt. Tracy Flicks said over the

6:22

weekend that Trump is still committed to

6:24

seeing more products and opponents made in

6:26

the US. She noted Trump's direction. Trump's

6:28

direction. Carolyn, sit down, you

6:30

27-year-old ignoramus, but

6:33

what do you

6:35

think about this

6:38

flippity-flopity-flopity-flop-ity-flop? The brand

6:40

U.S. has become

6:42

toxic uncertainty. There's

6:44

several organizations that track

6:46

an uncertainty index, and uncertainty in

6:48

the U.S. right now is greater

6:51

than COVID. Think about that. And

6:53

by the way, I'm going to

6:55

give you some anecdotes. I'm not

6:57

going to name the people because

7:00

they didn't want to be named.

7:02

But what I would tell our

7:04

listeners is that unlike the Trump

7:06

administration, my anecdotes are true. I'm

7:08

not lying. Over the weekend, I

7:11

talked to several CEOs. One is

7:13

the CEO of a huge catalog

7:15

in retail companies that does a

7:17

lot of housewares. This person has,

7:19

he thinks about $60 million in

7:21

outdoor furniture, waiting to hit the

7:23

stores for summer. that are on

7:25

ships en route from China, all

7:27

of a sudden he has to figure

7:29

out a way to get to the

7:31

port of Long Beach when they arrive

7:34

and write a check for

7:36

$85 million that he wasn't

7:38

expecting to write. And he has

7:40

to call his CFO. And this

7:42

is a publicly traded multi-million

7:44

dollar company. I can't just

7:47

like find 85 million bucks.

7:49

The 85 is for what? To

7:51

pay for the things now or what is

7:53

the 85 for? That's the correct question

7:56

because the way tariffs work is

7:58

the importer, the cap... the retailer

8:00

company taking delivery of outdoor furniture

8:02

from China, if these products, quote

8:04

unquote, cost 60 million, you have

8:07

to, with 145% tariff, you have

8:09

to, the person receiving the items,

8:11

the retailer in the US, has

8:13

to pay $85 million to the

8:15

US government in the form of

8:17

a tariff payment. So this individual

8:19

has to come up with $85

8:22

million to get the shit off

8:24

the boat in addition. unless they're

8:26

given a reprieve. But he can't

8:28

just sit on a boat. And

8:30

right now, he has to plan

8:32

for what the government is saying.

8:34

In addition, he's got to find

8:37

hundreds, if not thousands of people,

8:39

to go down to the port.

8:41

And when the stuff comes off

8:43

the boat... retag and reprice everything

8:45

because now the majority of retailers

8:47

that order their stuff out of

8:49

China have it tagged and priced

8:52

and attached to the actual physical

8:54

item in China. And wrapped, right?

8:56

Whatever if there happened to be

8:58

clothing or something like that? Whatever

9:00

it is. And so in addition,

9:02

he's like, okay, so I have

9:04

stopped all shipments from China. I've

9:07

told them stop producing, which is

9:09

going to take my inventory levels

9:11

way down and the only way

9:13

I'm going to get anywhere back

9:15

to even is if I... raise

9:17

prices, which I'm going to have

9:19

to do, in addition to more

9:22

expensive prices, i.e. inflation, my earnings

9:24

call is going to be a

9:26

shit show when I have to

9:28

explain that, oh yeah, I wasn't

9:30

expecting to pay an $85 million

9:32

unexpected straight from the bottom line

9:34

payment for tariffs that didn't exist

9:37

seven days before. And he has

9:39

to go into his office and

9:41

the CFO goes... All right, if

9:43

we've got to go borrow $85

9:45

million against the line, we can

9:47

do it. But if every retailer

9:49

is hitting their line, the interest

9:52

costs are going to go up.

9:54

Correct. And this is what played

9:56

out last week and why this

9:58

guy blinked yet again. The president

10:00

has access to more information than

10:03

any individual in history.

10:05

Between our security apparatus, the

10:07

brightest people in the world, a ton

10:09

of data that's digested, distilled for him.

10:11

He is the helm of the bobsled.

10:14

He technically has more insight into what

10:16

is going on in the world than

10:18

any individual. And I'm sure

10:20

two pieces of data were presented

10:23

to him in fairly stark terms.

10:25

Consumer confidence is plummeting. uncertainty is

10:27

skyrocketing, which all adds up to

10:29

a decline in spending and hiring

10:31

and insecurity, which has taken the

10:34

economy down. Now traditionally when an

10:36

economy goes down, people don't want

10:38

to borrow money, people don't want

10:40

to invest, so interest rates come

10:42

down, and that makes people more

10:45

confident, and it's sort of a

10:47

self-healing mechanism. In this instance, we

10:49

have a reduction in consumer spending,

10:51

the economy slowing down, but the

10:53

10-year spiked 50 points. So you

10:55

have... Everything getting more expensive

10:58

as the economy slows down.

11:00

That's called stagflation, which is

11:02

a bridge to a depression.

11:04

The 10-year went up 50

11:06

bips in five days, and

11:09

let's bring that down to

11:11

a number. Okay. All right.

11:13

We have a $34 trillion deficit,

11:15

meaning every... basis point increase

11:18

in the cost of the tenure. If

11:20

it goes from 4% to 4.1% it's

11:22

another three and a half billion dollars

11:24

in interest payments we have to make

11:26

on our national debt. I'm not even

11:28

talking about the incremental cost of consumers

11:30

of their student loans, their mortgages, and

11:32

their credit cards. I'm just talking about

11:34

the interest on the debt we have

11:36

to pay. So when it spikes 50

11:38

basis points, right, on three and a

11:40

half billion dollars per basis point in

11:42

incremental interest expense, all of a sudden

11:44

in a few days in a few

11:46

days. America has to come

11:49

up with another $175

11:51

billion in interest payments

11:53

to foreign creditors. Our

11:55

entire veterans affairs budget

11:58

is 300 billion. So

12:00

they have figured out a way

12:02

to reduce the economy, to send

12:04

the economy into what looks like

12:06

a low-grade coma, while interest rates

12:08

are going up. This is the

12:10

worst of all worlds. Right, right.

12:12

And they're not getting, and the

12:14

85 million dollars this guy has

12:16

to pay is going to the

12:18

government, but it's now going to

12:20

be sucked up in interest rate

12:22

payments. It's just like, so we're

12:24

going to lose so much money

12:26

every which way you lose. How

12:28

companies proceed is impossible at this

12:30

point? What do you do? What

12:32

do you just stop payments? That's

12:34

what you stop doing, and then

12:36

you lay people off, and then

12:38

you hunker down until this lunatic

12:40

is either he loses at the

12:42

midterm and he gets investigated out

12:45

the ying yang, which he should

12:47

be, honestly. Or it's rendered impossible

12:49

for him to do anything. That's

12:51

say, his lawlessness continues. He's defying

12:53

the Supreme Court on immigration. He's

12:55

defying everybody on every single thing.

12:57

He doesn't weigh 224 pounds. He

12:59

weighs like at least 250 pounds.

13:01

Anyway, that was just this thing.

13:03

Let's stop China then, because this

13:05

is an opportunity as we've talked

13:07

about with President Gee. He currently

13:09

is visiting Vietnam and other countries

13:11

in Southeast Asia, presenting China as

13:13

a reliable ally and trading partner.

13:15

China also spent at exports on

13:17

a wide range of critical minerals

13:19

and magnets. China is holding steady

13:21

here and they are willing to

13:23

endure pain, but they're also doing

13:25

the correct thing, which is to

13:27

visit partners and show themselves to

13:29

be reliable partners. What will Trump

13:31

do next? Because I see him

13:33

more in this press conference in

13:35

the Oval Office. He's defying the

13:37

Supreme Court. He's defying the Fed.

13:39

every anyone he can defy and

13:42

when he makes a good decision

13:44

he defies his good decisions so

13:46

what what do companies do and

13:48

how do you look at China's

13:50

role here because I think they're

13:52

benefiting enormously from his idiocy I

13:54

don't know what else to call

13:56

it stupidity so I never miss

13:58

a chance to boast. The CEO

14:00

of one of the most iconic

14:02

German automobile manufacturers reached out and

14:04

said, we'd love to come, we'd

14:06

love to host you and come

14:08

come every speak to the management

14:10

team of the board. And I

14:12

said, and I was trying to

14:14

arrange states. And then he called

14:16

me and he said, can I

14:18

ask you something? I said, of

14:20

course, he goes, what would you

14:22

do if you were us, given

14:24

what's going on in the US?

14:26

And Cara, as a guy who

14:28

is always willing to run other

14:30

people's No idea what to do

14:32

here other than, and I hate

14:34

to say this because I love

14:37

America, other than figure out a

14:39

series of partners that are more

14:41

reliable and I said, oh, we're

14:43

doing that. And going to that

14:45

notion around, let's talk about China

14:47

now, China since COVID or since

14:49

2019 has reduced its percentage of

14:51

its total exports to the US

14:53

from 24 to 17 percent. We

14:55

have reduced ours by 4%. So

14:57

we're both diversifying away from each

14:59

other. They have diversified it, nearly

15:01

double the clip we have. The

15:03

basic premise is that we can

15:05

hurt them more than they can

15:07

hurt us so they will cry

15:09

uncle. So let's assume we could

15:11

hurt them more than they could

15:13

hurt us. That is a pretty

15:15

shaky thesis because, well, the administration

15:17

wants you to believe that we're

15:19

the only customer at the country

15:21

club and they have to be

15:23

nice to us. Right. The number

15:25

one trading partner with China is

15:27

the association of Southeast Asian nations,

15:29

ASEAN, at one trillion. Who's number

15:31

two? The EU, at 900 billion.

15:34

We're number three. So yeah, we

15:36

have a lot of power. But

15:38

if they wanted to, and you

15:40

want to talk about restraint. If

15:42

they wanted to go into the

15:44

market and take the tenure from

15:46

450 to 550 and create inflation

15:48

while the economy is going down,

15:50

they could do that. But what

15:52

they realize is that if they

15:54

really hurt and need cap their

15:56

third biggest customer, it would be

15:58

bad for them as well. They

16:00

are not stupid. In addition, let's

16:02

discount all of that. And let's take

16:04

the administration at its word that

16:06

Howard Lutnik, that we're the biggest

16:08

consumer and they would be fucked

16:10

without us. China has its own

16:12

troubles. Here's the issue or the

16:14

piece of calculus they are missing.

16:17

When Americans find, when they're

16:19

watching the Logan Paul Mike Tyson

16:21

fight, and it starts, the bandwidth

16:23

slows down, they go fucking ape

16:25

shit, and they call their cable

16:27

company. I just did that today. When

16:29

you talk about women are

16:32

born with a much higher

16:34

tolerance for pain because they

16:36

have to endure childbirth, men

16:39

have much lower tolerance of

16:41

pain. We're the man in

16:43

this relationship. China stars tens

16:46

of millions of people when

16:48

they think it's good long

16:50

term for the country. Do

16:53

you realize the pain threshold

16:55

of America relative to China?

16:57

into doing a decision they

17:00

don't want to do? It's nuts.

17:02

This is just absolutely nuts. Bo

17:04

and Yang did a very funny

17:06

thing on S&L this idea. They

17:08

are made for pain. But wait, I'm

17:10

just wondering which side is more

17:13

willing to endure hardship for the

17:15

glory of their nation? The one

17:17

that's been around for thousands of

17:19

years or the one that's sending

17:22

Katie Perry to space? Look at

17:24

us in the 70s when we

17:26

had a much higher tolerance. for

17:28

paying when we didn't have Netflix

17:30

and shows on demand and couldn't

17:33

get a pack of gum delivered

17:35

to us within 15 minutes.

17:37

We left Vietnam after we

17:39

had, we had decided we

17:41

can't take any more when

17:43

we had lost 58,000 servicemen.

17:45

At that point, the Vietnam,

17:47

they had lost a million

17:49

people and we cried uncle

17:51

to think this, I mean,

17:53

the calculus here is just so

17:56

incredibly. Ignor and in addition to

17:58

the performative defiance of on everything

18:00

like there's not anywhere they're not losing

18:02

and being performatively define and then dragging

18:05

people who were not like this like

18:07

Marco Rubio into this performative defiance that's

18:09

what I would call it and it's

18:11

just it's like it's like Saul my

18:14

son this you know I'm not going

18:16

to you know he he does this

18:18

thing where he does his arms you

18:20

know when you see a toddler like

18:23

I'm not gonna do anything and that's

18:25

what it feels like I feel like

18:27

I'm dealing with like a three-year-old or

18:29

something like that first off it's corruption

18:32

all all over the place because, okay,

18:34

you give me a million bucks, you're

18:36

the cult of iOS, just kidding, the

18:38

tariffs, what are we back there now?

18:41

98% of the companies in America who

18:43

are dependent upon exports for their well-being

18:45

are small and medium-sized business. Another CEO

18:47

I spoke to this weekend, a friend

18:50

of mine from my fraternity at college.

18:52

He has a specialty products company. You

18:54

know when you go to a conference

18:56

and all the cups, the fleeces, the

18:58

banners, the signage? I have a lot.

19:01

I'm wearing one right now. There you

19:03

go. Okay. That's a big business. He

19:05

has a family-run business that he's worked

19:07

out for 30 years since we got

19:10

out of college. He's built a really

19:12

nice life, right? Slowly but surely over

19:14

the last 30 years. Everything's gone to

19:16

China. About 80% of his products are

19:19

produced out of China. He also has

19:21

to go down to the port and

19:23

sign a check for a couple million

19:25

bucks, which he doesn't have to get

19:28

the shit off the boat. He's told

19:30

China to stop shipping everything. And he

19:32

doesn't have time to figure out new

19:34

rooting relationships. He's basically said, Scott, this

19:37

is COVID times 10. I'm not going

19:39

to get any relief. I don't know

19:41

when this is coming to an end,

19:43

and literally my business has come to

19:46

a halt. At campuses, and I know

19:48

this firsthand, some of the biggest organizations,

19:50

companies, recruiters, have said the following. We're

19:52

putting a pause. on interviews and hiring.

19:55

And a pause sounds benign, but when

19:57

you pause hiring for three months for

19:59

new grads out of college, in three

20:01

months when they resume, they don't double

20:04

the pace. They basically reduce hiring for

20:06

a 25 or 50% for that year.

20:08

It's not as if they decide, now

20:10

we're going to go crazy with hiring

20:13

when we start again. So you have

20:15

a reduction in the number of jobs

20:17

for kids coming out of college. You

20:19

have stocks are going to get the

20:22

shit cacked out of them. You have

20:24

small and medium-sized businesses that don't know

20:26

what to do. You have earnings calls,

20:28

which are going to be an absolute

20:31

shit show. and you have the threat

20:33

of stagflation and all of this is

20:35

the chickens coming to roost because countries

20:37

don't go out of business because they're

20:39

invaded they go out of business because

20:42

they go broke and we have borrowed

20:44

so much fucking money we are so

20:46

debt laden yeah that we no longer

20:48

have that bullet to fire i mean

20:51

one of the things that's very that's

20:53

astonishing here is that we think we

20:55

have choices and that's the problem With

20:57

this entire thing is we do not

21:00

have the choices being and this is

21:02

not being an America like is a

21:04

bunch of losers This is self-inflicted Damage

21:06

that we're doing to ourselves definition of

21:09

on goal, you know, exactly Right we

21:11

should be running like just three months

21:13

ago You're talking about how the US

21:15

is dominating everything right when the transition

21:18

was happening three or four months ago.

21:20

Now we are just doing it to

21:22

ourselves and I think most people understand

21:24

that but we have to move on

21:27

but this is just what is fucking

21:29

disaster now Apple stock in the video

21:31

stock is up today because they are

21:33

hoping that these things stay in place,

21:36

but they might not. And so you

21:38

might see an impact. Lots of shares

21:40

are down right now. Apple and Aviti

21:42

are up because they've gotten this break,

21:45

but who knows what's coming? Because this

21:47

is this idea that he wants to

21:49

continue to hold over people's head, that

21:51

he could grab these anytime. Anyone who

21:54

can't get in on this gravy train,

21:56

you use the Vietnam thing? I used

21:58

it yesterday on one of our socials.

22:00

This is like if you're not on

22:03

the hell of... copter out of Saigon,

22:05

you are fucked. Like everyone else is

22:07

fucked. We'll see what political implications that

22:09

has, but we'll see where it goes.

22:11

Anyway, Scott, let's go on a quick

22:14

break when we come back. The antitrust

22:16

trial that Marxists have tried so hard

22:18

to shut down. And he looks so

22:21

nice at the inauguration. LinkedIn.

22:23

You know that feeling when things

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are just out of place, like

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ordering a steak dinner at a

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seafood restaurant or wearing shorts to

22:31

an ice hockey game? On their

22:34

own, they're fine, but there's a

22:36

time and place for everything. It's

22:38

kind of like that for B2B

22:40

marketers. It's all about selling the

22:42

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That's K -I -N -S -T -a.com/pivot. Scott,

25:27

we're back. Apparently putting on

25:29

a tie and kissing up

25:31

to Trump didn't do the

25:33

job. The FTC is facing

25:35

off against Metta in a

25:37

blockbuster anti -trust trial getting

25:39

underway this week. The case

25:41

goes back to Trump's first

25:44

term in 2020, if you

25:46

can believe it, with the

25:48

government alleging Metta violated competition

25:50

laws by acquiring Instagram and

25:52

WhatsApp. For its part, Metta

25:54

says regulators should be supporting

25:56

innovation and also faces fierce

25:58

competition from TikTok, Snap and

26:00

other platforms. I find this

26:02

to be a little bit

26:05

of a weak trial. Be

26:07

honest with you. I think

26:09

there's others that are stronger,

26:11

but the trial is expected to last about seven

26:13

to eight weeks. Mark Zuckerberg and Cheryl Sandman recalled to

26:15

stand among others. This is the case that Mark Zuckerberg

26:17

has been trying to stop. It's interesting that Trump has

26:19

not intervened. Zuckerberg has visited the White House three times

26:21

since Trump took office. Meta also donated $1 million to

26:23

Trump's inaugural fund and settled a lawsuit with Trump for

26:25

$25 million back in January, which they did nothing. It

26:28

also just named former Trump advisor, Deena Powell McCormick, to

26:30

Meadows Board. She's also the wife of

26:32

Senator David McCormick from Pennsylvania. FTC had

26:34

Andrew Ferguson has been vocal about reigning

26:36

in tech, but also said he... obey

26:38

lawful orders if Trump asked him to

26:40

drop the suit. I think he would.

26:43

He's been wearing the Trump. Have you

26:45

seen the gold-headed Trump that people are

26:47

wearing? I think it was him. Yeah,

26:49

I think it was Ferguson that was

26:51

wearing it. Anyway, oh, Brendan Carr was

26:53

wearing it, excuse me, the head of

26:56

the FCC. So he said he would

26:58

follow what Trump says and thoughts on

27:00

this. If metal loses a remedy could

27:02

be divesting Instagram and WhatsApp, the judge

27:04

will decide the case for the remedy

27:06

is James Bozburg who's been clashing with

27:09

Trump over deportations and many other issues.

27:11

Talk about this case a little bit

27:13

and what you think will happen here.

27:15

It is going on so it's not

27:17

been stopped by any means. Well Zuck

27:19

is the most disliked person in America

27:21

under the age of the age

27:23

of 30. He's got a two-thirds

27:25

unfavorable rating. Yeah, it is kind of

27:27

crazy. He's even less popular than

27:29

Musk. And think about, think about

27:32

when you're the most disliked person amongst

27:34

a group of people who is

27:36

literally ground zero for your product,

27:38

and two-thirds of those people use

27:40

your product, and yet you are

27:42

the most disliked person in America. I'm

27:44

hopeful. I had Jonathan Cantor on prophecy and

27:47

Jonathan said. Explain who he is. He was

27:49

the former head of antitrust at the, was

27:51

he at the DOJ? He was a justice,

27:54

right? I said, I'm really sad that you

27:56

and Lena are gone. I just don't see

27:58

anything happening and he said he actually said,

28:00

you know, you underestimate some of the

28:03

people that are still there. There's still

28:05

some people there. They're pretty committed and

28:07

quite frankly, sort of, you know, antitrust

28:10

badasses that are going to make a

28:12

very powerful argument. I've become so cynical,

28:14

Kara. I know what I want to

28:17

happen. I think that they're going to

28:19

play slowball. I mean, look at how

28:21

strategic Zuckerberg is. He put Dana White

28:24

on the board. He's put this basically

28:26

this Trumpite on the board. He's figured

28:28

out the existential threat to my business.

28:31

isn't distribution, isn't innovation, it's political, and

28:33

so I am absolutely musling up with

28:35

all sorts of contacts into the White

28:38

House, and the reality is this White

28:40

House can be bought. And not only

28:42

can the White House be bought, so

28:45

can the Democratic caucus with enough money.

28:47

So I believe they have become masters

28:49

at slowing these things down and letting

28:52

them die a slow death. I hope

28:54

I hope I'm wrong. These companies have

28:56

figured out a way to avoid all.

28:59

regulation. I don't see why this would

29:01

be any different. I think they're surprised

29:03

the trial is going forward. Let me

29:06

just read from the opening statements by

29:08

the two lawyers. This is Daniel Matheson,

29:10

the FTC's lead litigator. For more than

29:13

a hundred years, American public policy has

29:15

insisted firms must compete if they want

29:17

to succeed. The reason we are here

29:20

is Meta broke the deal. They decided

29:22

that competition was too hard to be

29:24

easier to buy out their rivals than

29:27

compete with them. This is the buyer-berry

29:29

argument. This is a guy named Mark

29:31

Hansen. from a big law firm, Kellogg

29:34

Hansen. This case is a grab bag

29:36

of FTC theories at war with fact

29:38

and at war with law. The facts

29:41

are going to prove the FTC's theories

29:43

are all wrong. You know, it's a

29:45

very, it is a difficult try. I've

29:48

talked to a lot of lawyers. The

29:50

FTC would like it to divest these

29:52

companies. Legal experts say it might be

29:55

hard to win. I'll read directly from

29:57

the New York Times. That's because the

29:59

government must prove something unknowable that meta

30:02

formerly known as Facebook wouldn't have achieved.

30:04

the same success without the acquisitions. It's

30:06

also extremely rare to try to unwind

30:09

mergers approved years before. So that's one

30:11

of the difficult ones, even though this

30:13

is somewhat of a bipartisan effort. It's

30:15

just for people to know, there's three

30:18

going around to go to trial. The

30:20

DOJ won its case against Google. Federal

30:22

judges hearing. arguments about remedies and a

30:25

potential breakout and there's a separate trial

30:27

with the DOJ for monopolizing ad technology

30:29

by Google that's still going on. Justice

30:32

Department has also sued Apple and the

30:34

FTC has sued Amazon accusing companies of

30:36

I had to trust violations. Those trials

30:39

are coming up later just for people

30:41

to get a background. But if they

30:43

do spin it off, it would be

30:46

unprecedented. Well, I mean, the baby bills

30:48

are broken up. The aluminum, the sisters,

30:50

the sisters, the sisters, the sisters, whatever.

30:53

It does, it does happen. And generally

30:55

speaking, when we look back in economic

30:57

history, there's never been a breakup that

31:00

hasn't turned out well for everybody. So

31:02

it's one of the few things that

31:04

kind of always works or breakups. The

31:07

problem is to your point, we should

31:09

have a much higher bar for approving

31:11

mergers because quite frankly the job of

31:14

the government is to prevent a tragedy

31:16

of commons and the easiest way to

31:18

do that is preventive. And that is

31:21

not let these companies be acquired to

31:23

begin with. I mean even there's been

31:25

a lot of officials in the government

31:28

say we screwed up letting meta acquire

31:30

Instagram. then probably should have never let

31:32

Google acquire what was a double click

31:35

and or YouTube. That was Google, yeah,

31:37

Google, yeah. But, so there probably needs

31:39

what this says is it is very,

31:42

it is very difficult to unwind a

31:44

merger and force a spend. What is

31:46

easier is to block an acquisition. And

31:49

I think the bar should be pretty

31:51

low to block an acquisition for a

31:53

company once it gets above a certain

31:56

dominance in its own category. I think

31:58

that's what... The argument they make so

32:00

effectively the resonates to the public is

32:03

that capitalism means making more money and

32:05

they should let just be capitalist and

32:07

the market do its thing. What they

32:10

don't realize is that the concentration of

32:12

industry has led to massively higher prices,

32:14

whether it's chicken, whether it's pharma, whether

32:17

it's health care. Right. This is harder.

32:19

And think about the way I look

32:21

at it is the hard part is

32:24

some of these costs are non-economic, but

32:26

for God's sakes, look at the rents

32:28

and the increase in emotional prices that

32:31

meta has levying on every parent globally.

32:33

Yeah, and ad businesses that have been

32:35

destroyed because they dominated and stuff like

32:38

that. I covered this. And then 2014,

32:40

it paid $19 billion for WhatsApp. Both

32:42

were crazy prices at the time, although

32:45

Instagram certainly has yielded a lot. There

32:47

is a paper trail of emails between

32:49

executives talking about the startups because they

32:52

were threats. I wrote about that at

32:54

the time. The lawyers mentioned the documents.

32:56

Zuckerberg was so paranoid and he talked

32:59

about in emails neutralized. a potential competitor.

33:01

And then Zuckerberg wrote to Sandberg, Messenger,

33:03

isn't beating WhatsApp. Instagram was growing so

33:06

much faster than us. We had to

33:08

buy them for a billion. So because

33:10

there's such bad product people at Facebook

33:12

and account underscore this enough, they had

33:15

to buy or bury. It's a very

33:17

famous phrase in tech, buy or bury.

33:19

And so that's what the government is

33:22

alleging here. And also keeping it out

33:24

of... other competitors hands is another one

33:26

to build a moat around the monopoly

33:29

and so what's that was that for

33:31

them so it should be really really

33:33

interesting I think we'll see what happens

33:36

in this trial but so far the

33:38

Trump administration is not doing pay or

33:40

play here they're just letting it go

33:43

which is to me interesting I don't

33:45

know you have any thoughts on that

33:47

well yeah he doesn't he doesn't like

33:50

these guys and it's one it looks

33:52

as if Instagram would be worth about

33:54

a hundred to two hundred billion dollars

33:57

right now. Now granted, it might not

33:59

have had the same level of success.

34:01

had not been able to cooperate and

34:04

share data. But what's interesting is within

34:06

about 40 days of one another was

34:08

the best and likely the worst acquisition

34:11

in tech history. And they looked remarkably

34:13

similar at the time. And the best,

34:15

you would argue, maybe other than

34:17

the acquisition of YouTube. But Mark

34:20

Zuckerberg bought Instagram for a billion

34:22

dollars. It's worth 100 to 200,

34:24

if not more now. And within

34:26

a month or 45 days, the worst.

34:28

acquisition and text. Do you

34:31

remember what it is? I'm thinking

34:33

it's Yahoo. Exactly. Tumblr.

34:35

I broke that story, Mr. Scott

34:38

Galloway. I know you did.

34:40

So Facebook acquires Instagram for

34:42

a billion. It's worth 100

34:44

to 200 billion. Yahoo slash

34:46

Marissa Mayor acquires Tumblr for

34:49

1.2 billion. And I believe

34:51

about seven years later, they

34:53

sold it for $3 million.

34:55

Yeah, it's worth nothing now. I just ran

34:57

into some Tumblr people. What a great site

34:59

that was, though. You know what I mean?

35:01

It really was. I liked Tumblr a lot.

35:03

It was a very innovative site. But you're

35:06

right. It's just, this is just, come on.

35:08

This is what Mark Zuckerberg played from the

35:10

Bill Gates, Byerberry. playbook. Sorry, this

35:12

is what this is. We'll see

35:14

if they can decide if Facebook

35:17

will make the argument, that there's

35:19

plenty of competition, and that there's

35:21

lots and lots, there's, you know,

35:23

whatever, blue sky, whatever. But the

35:26

fact of the matter is, two

35:28

things, both for Google and for

35:30

Facebook. When have you seen a

35:32

new fresh social network get built?

35:35

If not buried, like, you know,

35:37

Snapchat is doing its level best,

35:39

but Mark keeps stealing his things

35:41

because he can't buy it. He couldn't

35:43

buy it. And so he decided to

35:46

bury it. That's what they did with

35:48

Snapchat. And when have you last seen

35:50

a new search engine that really had

35:52

any kind of traction? And you were

35:54

close with a guy who did the

35:57

one who left Google and tried to

35:59

do it. too high and then when

36:01

Apple does a deal with these companies

36:03

and makes them the de facto map

36:06

or or whatever map or search engine

36:08

it sort of puts the nail in

36:10

the coffin for every other competitor and

36:13

the similar thing we just talked about

36:15

the terrorists if you can get an

36:17

out like Apple did you're great if

36:19

you can't like your your furniture guy

36:22

you're fucked like that's really it and

36:24

this is corruption it's corruption everywhere It's

36:26

an autocrat. It's not systemic. And also,

36:29

just to put a fine point on

36:31

the concentration of industry, this is happening

36:33

up and down industries. U.S. higher education

36:36

is a cartel. There's two great universities

36:38

in every city and the people who

36:40

give you accreditation such that you have

36:43

access to student loans are run by

36:45

the incumbents. My old company, L2, got

36:47

acquired by a large research company that

36:50

everybody hates and everybody uses. And I

36:52

couldn't figure out after they acquired us

36:54

the series of decisions they made. I

36:56

felt like it was George Kistanz, where

36:59

everything I thought they should do, they

37:01

did the exact opposite. I just didn't

37:03

understand the decisions they were making, and

37:06

it finally dawned on me about 18

37:08

months later, and I'm just speculating. I'm

37:10

like, I think they thought, OK, we'll

37:13

pay 3% of our market cap for

37:15

this company, because they're nipping at our

37:17

heels around CMOs. And if they will

37:20

squeeze them for cash flow. It was,

37:22

I think, I'm like, I think I've

37:24

just been aquacilt. Yep, yep, aquacilt. That's

37:26

what it is. Yeah, that buyer baron.

37:29

And it's like, okay, a competitor goes

37:31

away. They, they get some cash flow

37:33

back. And quite frankly, for two or

37:36

three percent dilution, just not having someone

37:38

running around nipping at your heels, establishing

37:40

a wedge in your business. And I

37:43

remember thinking, why on earth are they

37:45

doing? Nothing with us. Why are they

37:47

not driving the business? I do not

37:50

they understand me. I'm a genius. I've

37:52

been there. They've domesticated me. and then

37:54

you left and then you left. Poor

37:56

me with my big fucking bag of

37:59

money, but you did get a bag

38:01

of money. But this is what happens.

38:03

That's what they have. They have bags

38:06

and bags of money every day. They

38:08

show up to an entrepreneur and they

38:10

say, tell you what. We're going to

38:13

make you rich. Just stop bothering and

38:15

competing against us. Stop bothering us and

38:17

stop competing. In this case, Trump ain't

38:20

playing. So we'll see where it goes

38:22

from here. One of the things that

38:24

Met is doing, I got texted by

38:27

a metaperson day, they're like, can you

38:29

believe us? And I'm like, yes, yes,

38:31

I can. Sure we can. And by

38:33

the way, you know what, if they

38:36

take off Instagram, good for capitalism, if

38:38

they do, if they take off WhatsApp,

38:40

WhatsApp, Good for capitalism. If they spin

38:43

off YouTube, good for capital. We're capitalist,

38:45

Scott and Tara, because we think that's

38:47

good for this country. It's good for

38:50

competition, and maybe you'll do a little

38:52

better in your other things if you

38:54

have to not just buy. It's good

38:57

for the stock price. Yeah, if you

38:59

can't just buy your wife or husband

39:01

or whatever, it's good for everybody. All

39:03

right, Scott, let's go on a quick

39:06

break when we come back. Blue Orange

39:08

and sends an all female crew into

39:10

space and all female crew into space.

39:13

We must be very careful here, but

39:15

nonetheless. We'll find out what God has

39:17

to say. Oh, I can't wait to

39:20

see what you have to say. Support

39:22

for pivot comes from a select quote.

39:24

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42:25

Scott, we're back. El Salvador's president says

42:28

he won't order the return of

42:30

a Maryland man named Kilmar Abrego

42:32

Garcia, who was mistakenly deported. They've

42:34

admitted he is mistakenly deported. President

42:36

Bue Kale, who I'm just going

42:38

to call Sleezy club owner, appeared

42:40

with President Trump at the White

42:42

House. By the way, he wasn't

42:44

wearing a tie. I think it

42:46

was very, it wasn't very stately

42:48

of him to appear looking like

42:50

he's about to, you know, do

42:52

an ecstasy dance or something. The

42:54

two appeared as Trump administration was

42:57

digging into its heels, refusing to

42:59

bring Garcia back to the U.S.

43:01

At one point, Salvador resident Bukalay

43:03

called him a terrorist. There's no

43:05

proof of how could I bring,

43:07

how can I smuggle a terrorist

43:09

back into the country? Stop it,

43:11

you unctious piece of shit. A

43:13

Supreme Court ruling is directing the

43:15

government to, quote, facilitate the return.

43:17

That's a weird word. Now, Trump

43:19

administration is arguing that what facilitate

43:21

means saying they just need to

43:23

remove any obstacles to return and

43:25

not actually bring him back. Also, the

43:28

agenda for today's White House meeting, political

43:30

reports, a team of defense contractors, is

43:32

pitching the White House on a plan

43:34

to expand deportations to El Salvador. I'm

43:36

not sure what's more frightening the legal

43:39

implications the administration closing up to another

43:41

unsavory leader with this guy is This

43:43

one calls himself the world's coolest dictator.

43:45

He's certainly the world's most oily dictator.

43:47

I've seen of late He just seems

43:49

just completely just in it for the

43:52

money. He's very popular. Let me say

43:54

and I'll solve it or I know

43:56

a lot of people from Salvador and

43:58

they like him because he cleaned up

44:00

a lot of the gang

44:03

violence there by just arresting

44:05

everybody. Very similar to the

44:07

Philippines with Duterte. But of

44:09

course, he's gone overboard, as

44:11

they all do, with limited

44:13

power. And so they're just

44:15

pretending this guy's a terrorist.

44:17

And just, you know, when

44:19

reporters were justifiably asking about

44:21

this, Trump mocked them. He

44:23

then Rubio jumped in about

44:25

that the Supreme Court has

44:27

no purchase over the way

44:29

the government decides to do

44:32

foreign policy only the president

44:34

does. What a waste of

44:36

breath that guy has become.

44:38

So anyway, thoughts, legal implications,

44:40

world's clueless dictator. Look El

44:42

Salvador was with the murder capital

44:44

of the world and so this

44:46

guy's very popular, but basically basically

44:48

he just started rounding of people

44:50

who had, you know, a tattoo

44:52

that said they had a gang

44:55

affiliation. So there's tremendous collateral damage

44:57

there and you have to decide,

44:59

do you opt for rights and

45:01

wisdom crime and inconvenience and cost

45:03

or do you go full autocrat?

45:05

And we said this on the

45:07

last show. When you round up

45:09

people, it takes a different complexion.

45:11

This is a form of rounding

45:13

up people. This is, there are,

45:15

there are just some innocent people

45:17

being rounded up. And what is

45:19

just insane is these people supposedly,

45:21

you know, are Christians, right? They

45:23

all, they're all very fond of

45:25

holding the Bible. If you know

45:27

that you have taken an innocent

45:29

person and sent them to a

45:32

healthscape, And Bill Maher summarized it

45:34

perfectly. We can bring a man

45:36

back from space, but you don't,

45:38

we can't get someone back from

45:40

El Salvador? Of course we could

45:42

get them back. Of course we

45:44

could get them back. And then

45:46

the weirdest moment was this weirdo

45:48

Christie Noam posing it with guns

45:50

after having a Sephora explode all

45:52

over her face. It felt like

45:54

a fucking Cinemax film where she

45:56

was going to start having sex

45:58

with all the... prisoners. It's like,

46:00

yeah, I agree. It's like this

46:02

is just a snuff film. This

46:04

is weird people and also you

46:06

can't, don't hold Bibles when you

46:09

start taking people and sending them

46:11

incorrectly, unjustifiable. It's like For God's

46:13

sakes, have you no sense of

46:15

decency? It's just... And why wouldn't

46:17

Bouquetle take our money and create

46:19

a Guantanamo there? That's what he's

46:21

doing. Why wouldn't he take our

46:23

money? It's good for him. And

46:25

he doesn't care who is innocent.

46:27

By the way, it's not his

46:29

business to care who's innocent or

46:31

not. But if we send someone

46:33

who's innocent there, it looks like

46:35

many of them were or had

46:37

no criminal background that were sent

46:39

to these prisons. They're people back.

46:41

You can't send them to prison.

46:43

You just can't. Put them in

46:46

another country and let them go,

46:48

I guess, if you have to

46:50

do with the zenest stuff you're

46:52

doing. But to put them in

46:54

a prison and they're guilty, I

46:56

mean, was it 60 minutes showed

46:58

up? They had 75% of them

47:00

had no criminal background whatsoever. They

47:02

just had a tattoo to their

47:04

mother with a crown on it.

47:06

Just really. It's just, I mean,

47:08

I'm sorry, if that was the

47:10

case, Pete Heggseth would be in

47:12

a Salvador in prison. He's got

47:14

a lot of tattoos. So, it's

47:16

really, the worst thing is them

47:18

trying to parse what the, after

47:21

Trump promised he would follow, what

47:23

the Supreme Court said, he's not

47:25

following what the Supreme Court said.

47:27

The same thing they're doing, they

47:29

were supposed to let back in

47:31

AP into the press cycle. They're

47:33

not letting, they're barring AP even

47:35

though they were ruled against. do

47:37

it. They're lawless as a government.

47:39

I think you summarize it perfectly.

47:41

I don't understand the whole idea

47:43

of roundups. Just be careful. When

47:45

you tolerate this, just wait for

47:47

the knock on your door. And

47:49

the other thing that goes to

47:51

is the following. The only thing

47:53

I know about these people is

47:55

who's not being deported. rich people.

47:58

Yeah, I can think of a

48:00

lot of criminals, rich criminals. Well,

48:02

you're again in America, the whole

48:04

idea of a constitution and laws

48:06

is to protect the most vulnerable.

48:08

The rich are protected by the

48:10

law, they're not bound by it.

48:12

I love that line. And the

48:14

poor are bound by the law,

48:16

but not protected by it. And

48:18

I can't name a person. Nobody

48:20

in the top quintile of income

48:22

earning Americans or who was here

48:24

illegal who has money has been

48:26

taken. This is what is so

48:28

mendacious, so unchristian, so un-American, such

48:30

a violation of our constitution, is

48:32

that the basis of your quality

48:35

as a government is how the

48:37

poorest and most vulnerable are treated.

48:39

Whether it's a 14-year-old is a

48:41

victim of incest or an undocumented

48:43

worker, and by the way, folks.

48:45

I mean, this is good undocumented

48:47

workers as we demonize people for

48:49

a bump in our curating. A

48:51

third of fast food workers are

48:53

undocumented. You could take the top

48:55

10 fast food companies to a

48:57

statistically significant sample of raids and

48:59

say 22% 25% of McDonald's or

49:01

Jack in the Box workers are

49:03

undocumented. We're finding you $100,000 a

49:05

day per percentage. And guess what?

49:07

You'd end it. Here's the dirty

49:09

secret. Immigration is the secret sauce

49:12

of America, but the most profitable

49:14

part of immigration is the legal

49:16

immigration because they pay social security

49:18

taxes, but they don't... but they

49:20

don't collect social security. They pay

49:22

taxes for our cops and firemen,

49:24

but they don't call cops because

49:26

they're worried about being deported. So

49:28

we have turned a blind eye.

49:30

If we wanted to stop this

49:32

problem, we would find the employers.

49:34

But we're not interested in doing

49:36

that. We want to pretend that

49:38

this is a runaway problem, and

49:40

to be clear, it did get

49:42

runaway. It got out of hand,

49:44

250 thousand people crossing the border

49:46

in December 23. But folks, we

49:49

have purposely ignored this problem. are

49:51

super fucking profitable. That's right. Except,

49:53

you know what, Scott? They're profitable

49:55

in terms of... creating prisons and

49:57

putting them in it. that's it's

49:59

profitable for a very different group

50:01

of people is that we round

50:03

them up and we put them

50:05

in these camps which is what

50:07

we did with the Japanese and

50:09

we were shameful part of our

50:11

history you know a lot of

50:13

these people are also like let's

50:15

figure out who like the woman

50:17

who got grabbed off the street

50:19

remember that video with all the

50:21

people in the masks coming up

50:24

to her she has not done

50:26

they found out she's done nothing

50:28

wrong except right an op-ed that

50:30

was vaguely and politely students here

50:32

in this country are so scared

50:34

and I've heard from many are

50:36

scared of saying anything or doing

50:38

anything and if you have even

50:40

a minor like weed violation you're

50:42

getting taken like whatever excuse they

50:44

can have something you wrote or

50:46

or something else you can get

50:49

taken and you should have to

50:51

appear it's called habeas corpus everyone

50:53

you choirs a person in custody

50:55

appear before a judge it's one

50:57

of the core fundamental rights that

50:59

protects against arbitrary state action and

51:01

he is trying to suspend Tabeas

51:04

corpus for ridiculous reasons, for ridiculous

51:06

and nonsensical reasons. We're all in

51:08

danger and we're not. So anyway,

51:11

world's coolest dictator, you're not, you're

51:13

not, you're not, you're not, if

51:15

you have to call yourself the

51:17

world's coolest dictator, you're not cool.

51:20

And speaking of not cool, let's

51:22

move on to some lighter news,

51:24

other wastes of time and money,

51:27

and a giant publicity sum for

51:29

Jeff. Lauren Sanchez, Katie Perry, Gail

51:31

King, and three others, made a

51:33

10-minute trip on Blue Origin's new

51:35

shepherd rocket and returned safely to

51:38

Earth, thank goodness. Noted science, officinadoes,

51:40

Oprah Winfrey, Chris Jenner, and Chloe

51:42

Kardashian watch from the launch site

51:44

in West Texas. It's the first

51:46

time, and all female crew has

51:48

been in space since 1963, and

51:50

yes, Scott, they did fly above

51:52

the Carmen line, just so you

51:54

know. So, reaction, Scott. their outfits.

51:57

I don't know if you heard, but

51:59

they called Houston. They said... Houston, we

52:01

have a problem and Houston said, what

52:03

is it? And he said, well, you

52:05

should know what it is. That's your

52:07

joke. Actually, I actually care. I was

52:09

hoping that we get to see them

52:12

masturbate because I'd like to see them

52:14

defile gravity. I could keep going. I

52:16

could keep going on. Oh my God.

52:18

I'm just at the end of the

52:21

day. It's such a fine good for

52:23

them. I'm fine. I'm fine. They can

52:25

fly up there with their outfits or

52:27

their slinky outfits, whatever they want to

52:29

do. Here's what I don't like. Pretending

52:32

it's a feminist movement. It's just not.

52:34

It's just a bunch of ladies. And

52:36

their interviews show that because they're talking

52:38

about their eyeshadow and their eyeliner and

52:40

etc. They're going to... save women, you'd

52:43

be saving the woman who was grabbed

52:45

off the street, you'd be saving all

52:47

kinds of things, or you'd be pushing

52:49

up against Facebook and saying really shouldn't

52:51

be doing things to young girls that

52:54

make them feel bad. Like this is

52:56

not, of all the things you could

52:58

do to help women, this is not

53:00

one of them, and that's how I

53:03

feel about it. But have fun. You

53:05

know who are a real female astronaut

53:07

is Sally Ride. A PhD in physics.

53:09

And as Megan Kelly would say, openly

53:11

lesbian and spent a ton of time

53:14

in space, didn't make a lot of

53:16

money. I mean, Sally Ride is our

53:18

astronaut. These folks, yeah, I agree. There

53:20

were, there were from science people on

53:22

board. There were some science people on

53:25

board. Whatever, there were, but still, it's

53:27

just a stunt. It's not feminist, it's

53:29

just a stunt. How much fun Oprah

53:31

and all the rest of you have,

53:33

but there's some serious shit happening, so

53:36

maybe stop pretending you're doing something you're

53:38

not. How about, I don't resent them

53:40

for it, have out, have fun, go

53:42

up. Yeah, I just don't like the

53:45

feminist thing. Okay, okay, last thing. Sally

53:47

wasn't openly lesbian. No, she wasn't well,

53:49

I meant I was a play on

53:51

notice. No one has ever described me

53:53

as openly heterosexual No one has ever

53:56

said openly heterosexual podcaster. That was my

53:58

favorite part about her attack on you

54:00

as if as if you're not allowed

54:02

to be openly lesbian. I am openly.

54:04

She's openly lesbian. At least she's openly

54:07

lesbian. At least she'd have to. That's

54:09

a real old thing. At least good

54:11

madam you'd have the dignity to be

54:13

a closet and lesbian. I was never

54:15

really. I wasn't closet. That's not true.

54:18

I was not openly lesbian at the

54:20

beginning of my journey of lesbian. which

54:22

started at age four, but we're not

54:24

going into it with Megan Kelly, but

54:27

as she devil, she is. Anyway, last

54:29

thing, Bill Maher says he wasn't high

54:31

at his White House dinner with President

54:33

Trump, even though he also claims that

54:35

Trump was, quote, gracious in measure, the

54:38

comedian described his March 31st visit with

54:40

the president during a monologue at the

54:42

top of his Friday show. People felt

54:44

it was controversial. The cadet was organized

54:46

by illustrious statesman kid rock. Bill said

54:49

that he and musician, quote, quote, share

54:51

believed that there's got to be something

54:53

better. than hurling insults from 3,000 miles

54:55

away, although Bill's pretty fucking good at

54:57

that. Here's what he had to say

55:00

about his interaction with Trump. He's much

55:02

more self-aware than he lets on in

55:04

public. Look, I get it. It doesn't

55:06

matter who he is at a private

55:09

dinner with a comedian. It matters who

55:11

he is on the world stage. I'm

55:13

just taking as a positive that this

55:15

person exists, because everything I've ever not

55:17

liked about him was I swear to

55:20

God. absent at least on this night

55:22

with this guy. Okay. I'm going to

55:24

be on Bill Marsh show in a

55:26

couple of weeks. I think you are

55:28

too. Are you going to be on

55:31

a Tuesday? No, I was supposed to

55:33

be on Friday and I had a

55:35

tough time trying to figure out a

55:37

way to be on the way. I

55:39

had a tough time trying to figure

55:42

out a way to be on with

55:44

Steve Ben and I'm something about the

55:46

idea in a little way normalizing Nazi

55:48

salutes. I just I don't know how

55:51

to know how to thread it. Yeah,

55:53

you're a great panelist there. Go ahead.

55:55

You start. You start. I have some

55:57

thoughts too. Look, I think Bill Maher

55:59

and Joe and Mika did the right

56:02

thing. I think what the president calls

56:04

you and says come to the Oval

56:06

Office, I think you go. And I

56:08

think that him trying to show him

56:10

not immediately going to the kind of

56:13

polarized, this guy's a fucking idiot and

56:15

acknowledging that he's a charming guy or

56:17

that maybe trying to provide some comfort

56:19

that he's not. is not as crazy

56:21

as we think and he's self-wear and

56:24

he listens. I think that's important. The

56:26

only thing, and this might be my

56:28

bias, is that someone who is so

56:30

angry and aggressive, and I'm talking about

56:33

the president now, against people, I've heard

56:35

this about President Trump, that when he

56:37

meets you, he's nice and he's charming,

56:39

and then a few minutes later, he'll

56:41

basically... say vile things about you do

56:44

as 200 million followers. I think someone

56:46

who's nice to you to your face

56:48

and then should post you behind your

56:50

back in a way that really hurts

56:52

your reputation. I think there's a word

56:55

for that. Asshole. I much prefer someone,

56:57

I think you're like this, I think

56:59

you're more likely, who do you want?

57:01

If someone's, it's like, if you're gonna

57:03

be critical of someone, trying to in

57:06

a constructive way to them personally and

57:08

then speak well of them or at

57:10

least gently. behind their back. I think

57:12

that is the worst role model for

57:15

our young people. Yeah, I agree. I

57:17

agree. I agree. But I'm glad he

57:19

did it. I think he was smart

57:21

to do it. I think it's a

57:23

dignified thing to do. I thought it's

57:26

an impossible needle to thread because people

57:28

who hate Trump are angry at him

57:30

for acknowledging the president has some positive

57:32

qualities. I think it's kind of an

57:34

impossible position or needle to thread for

57:37

Bill. Well, here's what I think happened.

57:39

He was getting very sharp on Trump,

57:41

very sharp, very tough, and they decided

57:43

to neuter him a little bit by

57:45

being charming. I think he has been

57:48

doing some really, you know, he has

57:50

been, he tries to do the down

57:52

the middle country. and thing a lot

57:54

of the time, but he has been,

57:57

the sharpest attacks on Trump among comics,

57:59

and which there are mening, by the

58:01

way. So I think they were trying,

58:03

I thought they were trying to neuter

58:05

him and it worked in that regard.

58:08

Now, you know, look, I think it's

58:10

right to go to the dinner that

58:12

would be really interesting, but to say,

58:14

oh, look, he's charming in person, like

58:16

I'm sure Goebels was thrilling at a

58:19

cocktail party. put a hat, he put

58:21

a lampshade on his head and we

58:23

dance all night and you know and

58:25

you know the tarantella I like I

58:27

don't know what to say like I

58:30

just am like so Bill I will

58:32

bring this up with Bill if he

58:34

lets me on now but was he

58:36

was he lying to you a dinner

58:39

or to the world? Which one? Because

58:41

he is a terrible person publicly. Terrible.

58:43

The stuff he did today, terrible. And

58:45

it's not, there's nothing charming about keeping

58:47

a person who is unjustly jailed and

58:50

jail and then laughing about it and

58:52

then her wranging reporters about it. There's

58:54

nothing, you know, charming about most of

58:56

the things. There's not like charming about

58:58

ruining your friend's business. There's nothing charming

59:01

about it. So I just, honestly, that's

59:03

what I kept thinking of like I'm

59:05

sure. Like any nasty piece of shit

59:07

is charming person and there are a

59:09

lot of them that I have dealt

59:12

with but... You should have gone, but

59:14

don't give me this, he's charming, because

59:16

he's not, he's just not charming. And

59:18

he's, he'll probably, the minute you go

59:21

after him again, which I hope and

59:23

pray you will, and I know you

59:25

will, actually, because he doesn't pull punches

59:27

a lot, sometimes he does, but he

59:29

doesn't really, as a comic. So the

59:32

minute you go after him again, he's

59:34

like, I was so nice doing him,

59:36

I made him, Dana, I showed him

59:38

off the Whitehouse, I showed him off

59:40

the White House, I showed him my

59:43

bedroom, my bedroom, my bedroom, my bedroom,

59:45

whatever. But I probably, would you go

59:47

to dinner if you asked us? Do

59:49

you think you'd ever ask us to?

59:51

You just get to fuck about us.

59:54

Well, I agree with you. I was

59:56

straight or straight. I, I, I, I,

59:58

I said this about Joe Meeka, I

1:00:00

believe. this about Bill Marrow. I think

1:00:03

if the president calls you and asks

1:00:05

you to come to the White

1:00:07

House, you go. I just think

1:00:09

you go. I'll go. I just wouldn't

1:00:11

be as polite in person. I

1:00:13

wouldn't be like, oh, hey, can I

1:00:16

have a role? That's the kind

1:00:18

of thing. Anyway, we'll see. We'll see.

1:00:20

We'll see. We'll see. What happens?

1:00:22

I'll tell this to Bill's face.

1:00:24

That's the kind of thing. Anyway.

1:00:26

We'll say in front of your

1:00:29

back. Oh, gosh, is that

1:00:31

possible? Is that possible?

1:00:33

Good for you, Scott

1:00:35

Galloway. Good for you. I

1:00:37

know you like being on that

1:00:40

show, too. I do. I love

1:00:42

it. Have him back, Bells. Don't

1:00:44

be a, don't be a douchen.

1:00:46

Also, I'll have him

1:00:48

back. All right, Scott, one

1:00:51

more quick break. We'll

1:00:53

be back for Wins and

1:00:55

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you. Okay, Scott, let's hear some

1:03:28

wins and fails. May I start?

1:03:30

Yeah, you just go ahead. Let

1:03:33

me just say two things. Television

1:03:35

is so happy place for me

1:03:37

these days, watching different things, and

1:03:39

this weekend, there's two shows. G20,

1:03:41

with Viola Davis, where she plays

1:03:43

a kick-ass. woman president who like

1:03:45

kicks ass she acts they go

1:03:48

to the Jesus Summit there is

1:03:50

a South African guy who takes

1:03:52

over all the G20, excuse me,

1:03:54

and she kicks ass in Windsor.

1:03:56

It's like Harrison Ford's Air Force

1:03:58

one. And let me just say,

1:04:00

I love Viola Davis, I love

1:04:02

her kicking ass and killing South

1:04:05

African terrorists, or maybe they're from

1:04:07

Australia. I don't know, they have

1:04:09

that accent. So good. It was

1:04:11

so bad and so good at

1:04:13

the same time. It was Air

1:04:15

Force One, but Viola Davis. So

1:04:17

there was some good acting in

1:04:19

there too. Fantastic. Second one, Hacks,

1:04:22

the season premiere. Again, two women,

1:04:24

Hannah Einnder and, oh God, I'm

1:04:26

blanking up. Jean Smart. Oh my

1:04:28

god, it is, risen a level

1:04:30

of, like, it was already one

1:04:32

of my favorite shows. I've heard

1:04:34

it's great. This season, the two

1:04:37

of them go, at some point,

1:04:39

I'm like, just kiss you two,

1:04:41

because they're going, they're insults of

1:04:43

each other and they're going back

1:04:45

and forth, and then there's a

1:04:47

poignant moment in the first two

1:04:49

episodes about heartbreak, and I just

1:04:51

love this show so much. Obviously,

1:04:54

Doge falling short of its goal,

1:04:56

it was supposed to save $2

1:04:58

trillion, and it went to $1

1:05:00

trillion. Now he said, and Elon

1:05:02

said in a meeting, that it's

1:05:04

$150 billion. Dave Farhanold, as always,

1:05:06

he's now at the New York

1:05:08

Times, showed the math to be

1:05:11

wrong. Again, that is probably even

1:05:13

less money that he is, that

1:05:15

he's saving, but we don't even

1:05:17

know how much he's costing for

1:05:19

the savings. That's not in this.

1:05:21

So he's not saving any money

1:05:23

and he's causing incredible harm and

1:05:25

cutting things without thinking about it

1:05:28

and doing it surgically. So we're

1:05:30

not benefited as a people on

1:05:32

stuff we should reform government as

1:05:34

everybody thinks. So what an incredible.

1:05:36

waste of our time and energy

1:05:38

to have this ridiculous person prance

1:05:40

all over the place saying he's

1:05:43

saving money and then of course

1:05:45

He's not delivering. It's the same

1:05:47

thing that this is a theme

1:05:49

of his life right now is

1:05:51

over promising and under delivering, whether

1:05:53

it's the cyber truck, whether it's

1:05:55

autonomous cars. This is just such

1:05:57

a ridiculous thing, this doge thing,

1:06:00

given how much energy and time

1:06:02

and pain it has caused people

1:06:04

unnecessarily. That is my fail. I

1:06:06

like it. I was going to

1:06:08

do a prediction, but I'll try

1:06:10

and reshape it as a win

1:06:12

and a fail. The fail is

1:06:14

what you, I'll just pick it

1:06:17

back off what you said. Essentially.

1:06:19

If this audit proved anything, it's

1:06:21

that there's a lot less inefficiency

1:06:23

and waste and fraud than we

1:06:25

thought. I mean, this is about

1:06:27

as clean a bill of health

1:06:29

as anyway, because they were dying

1:06:31

to find fraud, and they just

1:06:34

didn't find very much. And most

1:06:36

of their claims of fraud and

1:06:38

savings ended up to be fraudulent

1:06:40

themselves and that they were lies.

1:06:42

And we predicted he would exit.

1:06:44

He's gone. I think he's already

1:06:46

gone. I think he's already figured

1:06:49

out. He was with Trump the

1:06:51

other night at that stupid WDB.

1:06:53

Yeah, but that's proximity to power.

1:06:55

I think Doge, I think Doge

1:06:57

is basically the curtain is closing

1:06:59

on Doge. It just didn't work.

1:07:01

It was a distraction fine, but

1:07:03

it's not working. The reality is

1:07:06

Americans against the above not willing

1:07:08

to endure pain. They have to

1:07:10

face a hard decision here. It's

1:07:12

the hard thing about the hard

1:07:14

thing. being a country that doesn't

1:07:16

spend seven trillion dollars and taking

1:07:18

five trillion in tax receipts, there's

1:07:20

only two things you can do,

1:07:23

folks. You either have to cut

1:07:25

entitlements or raise taxes. And the

1:07:27

answer is yes. And at some

1:07:29

point, we're going to have to

1:07:31

figure out a way to do

1:07:33

that. And or just wait till

1:07:35

we get shoved in a corner

1:07:38

and the people who own our

1:07:40

debt can basically start calling the

1:07:42

shots, which they're doing now. In

1:07:44

a company that gets so highly

1:07:46

levered, basically the bank owes you.

1:07:48

And this is what's happening to

1:07:50

us. Our creditors are beginning to

1:07:52

owe us. This is Doge. Doge

1:07:55

was jazz hands. It didn't, a

1:07:57

clean bill of health when we.

1:07:59

I decided to elect a grown-up,

1:08:01

we're going to have to make

1:08:03

some very hard decisions here. My

1:08:05

win, and it's sort of win, but

1:08:08

this really was my prediction, you're

1:08:10

going to see a flurry of deals.

1:08:12

You know, the art of the deal, the

1:08:14

basic premise was, okay. We're, he's a negotiator,

1:08:16

he's bringing these people to the table.

1:08:18

First off, we just need to dispel

1:08:20

the notion this guy's a good business

1:08:23

person. He's a rich kid that would

1:08:25

have made more money if he'd given,

1:08:27

taken all of his massive inheritance and

1:08:29

put it into ETFs. His business career

1:08:31

is basically a series of bankrupted companies

1:08:34

and unpaid subcontractors. So let's just stop

1:08:36

this nonsense that he has any fucking

1:08:38

clue what he's doing in terms of

1:08:40

business. He has unwittinglyingly inspired... Unbelievable

1:08:43

and unbelievable torrent tsunami of

1:08:45

deals, cross-border trade deals, but

1:08:48

it won't be with us.

1:08:50

The EU is talking to

1:08:52

Latin America, Japan, South

1:08:54

Korea, and China are talking.

1:08:57

This has set off incredible

1:08:59

incentive for a ton of

1:09:01

nations around the world to start

1:09:04

thinking about free trade zones, to

1:09:06

become more dependent upon each other,

1:09:08

to take the cost of... reconfiguring

1:09:11

their supply chain and excising America

1:09:13

from the supply chain. They're thinking,

1:09:15

how can we make up for

1:09:18

some of that lost economic growth

1:09:20

that this is going to cost

1:09:22

us? I know, let's lower each

1:09:25

other's trade barriers. The unwitting unintended

1:09:27

consequence of this is that the

1:09:29

US is about to trade off

1:09:31

a lot of its own prosperity

1:09:33

and it's going to leak to

1:09:35

other Western nations who are talking

1:09:37

to each other. and cooperating and

1:09:39

coordinating now. You're going to see

1:09:42

trade deals between Mexico and Canada.

1:09:44

You're going to see trade deals

1:09:46

between the EU and China. This

1:09:48

is going to the intended, what

1:09:50

they claim they were going to

1:09:52

accomplish from America, they have accomplished

1:09:54

for everyone else but America. Yes,

1:09:56

true. They're going to get all the

1:09:58

avocados in Canada and... and Mexicans are

1:10:00

going to get all the good maple

1:10:03

syrup. Do you hear that, people? It's

1:10:05

finished. Avocado toast and pancakes are done

1:10:07

for us, as Americans. Much less lumber

1:10:09

or gypsum drywall. You want to talk

1:10:11

about the cost of building right now?

1:10:14

Gypsum drywall for Mexico or lumber? I

1:10:16

just renovated my house. I'm so pleased

1:10:18

that I did it last year. My

1:10:20

contractor said it would have been double.

1:10:23

I'm interviewing Mark Kearney this afternoon. What

1:10:25

would you asking? Yeah, he reached out.

1:10:27

For what? Which show? Which show? I

1:10:29

wanted to do it for pivot or

1:10:31

raging moderates. He said he wanted to

1:10:34

do it for profity conversations. I think

1:10:36

he wants to talk about young men.

1:10:38

Yeah, good. Well, I heard you have,

1:10:40

by the way, you have another podcast

1:10:42

you didn't tell me about? Which one's

1:10:45

this? The man, the men thing. Scaringuchi

1:10:47

and this. Oh, that's a limited series.

1:10:49

He called me and said, let's do

1:10:51

four pods. Yeah, that's good for your

1:10:53

book coming out. Good, I'm very excited.

1:10:56

You cat around on me quite a

1:10:58

bit. That's okay, I don't mind. I

1:11:00

just want to know about it. I

1:11:02

just know about that. It's alcohol. I

1:11:05

hope it has nothing to do with

1:11:07

our relationship. I just like to wake

1:11:09

up with a strange man's lipstick all

1:11:11

over my day. I want, okay. I

1:11:13

know you did. I'm ignoring it completely.

1:11:16

I would like to make your book

1:11:18

like bestseller. Defile gravity! Defile gravity, Katie

1:11:20

Barry. I want to make your book

1:11:22

a ton of habits. Let me hear

1:11:24

you roar. You 90s pop star, one

1:11:27

ton, bitch! I'm sorry, go ahead. She

1:11:29

defied gravity. Anyway, let me just say,

1:11:31

for one thing Scott said, there's a

1:11:33

lot of reporting from Rolling Stone and

1:11:36

Puck that he's annoying people at the

1:11:38

White House. They question if he's high

1:11:40

and Republicans on Capitol Hill are no

1:11:42

longer terrified him either. That said, Scott,

1:11:44

only thing is he's leaving. The Washington

1:11:47

Post reported today and the security implications

1:11:49

and... other people you don't know about

1:11:51

that don't look like Elon Musk will

1:11:53

still remain problematic for our country in

1:11:55

those positions. So just remember that. All

1:11:58

right, okay, there you have. it. Those

1:12:00

are good. But please, for the love

1:12:02

of God, watch Viola Davis kick some

1:12:04

ass. It's so good. It's so good.

1:12:07

It's so good. I think that's just

1:12:09

an attempt to address your PTSD and

1:12:11

pretend that Vice President Harris won the

1:12:13

election. No, no, no. She could. Justice

1:12:15

Burns, couldn't have done this. This was

1:12:18

just what. Trust me, watch it and

1:12:20

then call me back. Just I'm just

1:12:22

telling you. You'll love it. It's so

1:12:24

much fun. Like, she's won an Oscar.

1:12:26

Isn't she? She won an Oscar? Whatever.

1:12:29

She deserves an Oscar. She won an

1:12:31

Emmy, an Oscar, whatever. This woman is

1:12:33

like top actor, just chewing up the

1:12:35

scenery. It's so enjoyable. She did one

1:12:37

a TV show years ago called How

1:12:40

to Get Away with Murder, which you

1:12:42

should watch again. She also chewed up

1:12:44

the scenery with her Oscar winning acting

1:12:46

abilities. Anyway. She's so talented, but I

1:12:49

love that she's doing this and just

1:12:51

punching people in the face with the

1:12:53

machine, the whole thing, it's fantastic. Anyway,

1:12:55

we want to hear from you, send

1:12:57

us your questions about business tech or

1:13:00

whatever is on your mind, go to

1:13:02

nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the

1:13:04

show, or call 855.1 pivot. Also, pivot

1:13:06

is up for a webby award for

1:13:08

Best Business Podcast and we are asking

1:13:11

for your vote and some of other,

1:13:13

your other podcasts are also up. So

1:13:15

vote for profgee. vote for us. Go

1:13:17

to vote dot webyawards.com to cast your

1:13:20

ballot. We won last year and we're

1:13:22

hoping for a twofer. Elsewhere in the

1:13:24

Scott and Carra universe I just did

1:13:26

a whole panel on tariffs with trade

1:13:28

law expert Raj Bala, Pux, Bill Cohen,

1:13:31

and Catherine Rampel from the Washington Post.

1:13:33

Let's listen to a quick clip. The

1:13:35

only way I can explain it is

1:13:37

that we're dealing with the madness of

1:13:39

King George type moment. Maybe Trump is

1:13:42

trading on the volatility and... Certainly there's

1:13:44

a lot of money to be made

1:13:46

if you know what he's going to

1:13:48

do from one minute to the next,

1:13:51

which only he seems to know. But

1:13:53

all of his explanations for what he

1:13:55

is trying to do are completely incoherent

1:13:57

and self-contradictory and... come back to, well,

1:13:59

he's just like tariffs for a really

1:14:02

long time. Anyway, it was a great

1:14:04

interview. All of them had different things

1:14:06

to add. Just FYI, just, I think

1:14:08

Catherine Rampel is a total comer. I

1:14:10

think she's going to be... Really? I

1:14:13

think you're going to hear her name

1:14:15

a lot. I think she is exceptionally

1:14:17

talented. She's great. She had an outstanding

1:14:19

moment on that show. think it's a

1:14:21

fucking food fight, whatever it's called. On

1:14:24

Abby's phone, yeah. And whoever the Republican

1:14:26

is, was trying to defend. Scott Jennings.

1:14:28

Whoever the Republican is was trying to

1:14:30

defend. I call him bad Scott. He's

1:14:33

bad Scott. He's trying to defend Bannon.

1:14:35

He's saying, it was a wave. And

1:14:37

Catherine Rampell goes, give us that wave.

1:14:39

Give us that way. And he just

1:14:41

sat there like someone had just been

1:14:44

caught masturbating or defiling gravity. Yeah, defiling

1:14:46

gravity. Yeah, anyway, we love her. All

1:14:48

right, Scott, that's another show. Thanks for

1:14:50

listening to pivot. Be sure to like

1:14:52

and subscribe our YouTube channel. We'll be

1:14:55

back on Friday. Scott, read us out.

1:14:57

Today's show was produced by Larry Neymanzui,

1:14:59

Marcus, Taylor Griffin, Arin Ruff, and Kate

1:15:01

Gallagher. Ernie Intertot engineered this episode, Jim

1:15:04

Mackel edited the video. Thanks also to

1:15:06

Drew Burroughs, Miss Everio, and Dan Shalon.

1:15:08

Nishakhawa is the Vox Media's executive producer

1:15:10

of podcast. Make sure you're subscribed to

1:15:12

the show or ever you listen to

1:15:15

a podcast. Thanks for listening to pivot

1:15:17

from New York magazine, Vox Media. You

1:15:19

can subscribe to the magazine at nymic.com/pod.

1:15:21

We'll be back later this week for

1:15:23

another breakdown of all things, tech, and

1:15:26

business care. Have a great rest of

1:15:28

the week.