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sweeps. that are always around

0:27

at the top of politics

0:29

are getting more and more

0:31

belligerent. This is an

0:33

issue about whether a

0:35

potential Prime Minister is

0:37

capable of working alongside

0:39

intellectual equals. You have

0:41

the taxpayers voting for

0:43

governments that are saying

0:45

one thing and then it's

0:48

funding the opposite. It's come

0:50

down to this sort of

0:52

public schoolboy willy-wanging spat.

0:57

Welcome once again to Planet

0:59

Normal, the Telegraph podcast with

1:02

Alison Pearson. Hello. And me,

1:04

Liam Halligan. Reform UK, starting

1:07

to resemble a punch-up in a

1:09

phone box. Nigel Farage's upstart

1:11

party is in broad and a

1:13

huge row. As the Reform UK

1:16

leadership, not least, Farrage himself and

1:18

Deputy Leader Richard Tice, tried to

1:20

oust one of the party's five

1:22

MPs, the former businessman, Rupert, the

1:25

member of Parliament for Great Yarmouth.

1:27

Lo is a highly effective campaigner,

1:29

who's not only a master strong

1:31

following on X, the social media

1:34

platform formerly known as Twitter, he's

1:36

also attracted the support of the

1:38

owner of the X platform himself,

1:41

who happens to be the world's richest

1:43

man, Donald Trump's advisor Elon

1:45

Musk. It's a proper fight,

1:47

with reform accusing Lo of

1:49

threatening party chairman Zia Yusuf,

1:51

a claim the Metropolitan police,

1:54

we're told, and now investigating.

1:56

Lo himself denies all

1:58

wrongdoing. reform has just

2:01

five MPs as I said Allison,

2:03

but it secured a chunky 14%

2:05

of the vote at the last

2:07

general election. Betting markets, which are

2:09

nearly always closer to the truth

2:11

than mainstream political pundits, with vulnerable

2:14

exceptions aside, are judging Farage as

2:16

the UK's most likely next Prime

2:18

Minister. As reform fights with itself, disappointing

2:20

many of its new supporters, Kier

2:22

Starmer seems to be acting more

2:25

like a right wing than a

2:27

left-wing leader. The Prime Minister is

2:29

not only talking tough about higher

2:31

UK defence spending, he also wants

2:33

to hack back Britain's burgeoning welfare

2:35

bill. And while all this

2:37

is happening, of course, Trump

2:39

himself seems determined to plunge

2:42

the entire global economy into

2:44

a deeply damaging trade war.

2:46

By introducing the most serious

2:48

raft of US tariffs or

2:50

taxes on imports, since the

2:52

ultra-protectionist measures America wielded during

2:54

the early 1930s, which helped

2:56

plunge the US into nothing less

2:58

than the Great Depression. Not

3:00

too much cheer on the

3:02

Horizon co-pilot. Tell me something

3:04

that may make planet normal

3:07

listeners smile. Slightly really

3:09

from the Great Depression,

3:12

honestly. Steinbeck's dust bulb. You

3:14

know how to perk a girl up,

3:16

don't you? I do. I think the

3:18

thing that made me laugh more than

3:20

anything this week was, now this will

3:23

come as a great shock to planet

3:25

normal listeners, but the co-pilot and I

3:27

do do a small amount of preparation

3:29

for the podcast, not that it shows,

3:31

I'm grateful to say, but in our

3:33

preamble discussions, co-pilot Hallegan revealed

3:35

that he was with his

3:38

brother setting about that cleanest

3:40

of domestic building tasks demolishing

3:42

a chimney breast. What colour

3:44

are you? You covered in

3:46

soot? I was indeed Alice

3:48

and I was like a

3:50

little Victorian chimney sweep before

3:52

I showed off to join

3:54

you here in the planet

3:56

normal cockpit and I'm really

3:58

returning to my... Irish builder roots.

4:00

We've got a skip coming tomorrow morning

4:02

and you know what a skip means.

4:04

It means that every bugger around you

4:07

think that it's their skip and they

4:09

start shoving all their stuff in your

4:11

skip at 2 o'clock in the morning

4:13

so you can't get your stuff in.

4:15

Skip infiltrators. Skip dipping or skip sneaking

4:17

or whatever it's called. Yeah but someone's

4:19

got to pay for the skip. I

4:21

know but you get the skip permit

4:23

and all this mad is but I

4:25

tell you what we're doing I tell

4:27

you what we're doing we are fighting

4:29

the skip dippers the skip sneakers infiltrators

4:31

because we're not having an overnight skip

4:33

no more rounds about skip access with

4:35

me and me bathrobe at 3am because we

4:37

are getting that most elegant of

4:40

solutions. a wait and load skip, right? So

4:42

the guy comes along with a skip and

4:44

he puts the skip down and he's shoved

4:46

tenors into his hand every five minutes

4:49

and you load the skip as quickly

4:51

as you possibly can and then he

4:53

takes it away before your neighbours can

4:55

put all their stuff in it. Perfect.

4:57

You are such a spoil sport halican.

5:00

I mean, I'm surprised you have

5:02

rigged CCTV and an electric fence

5:04

around this. It's like a scene out

5:06

of Raiders of The Lost Dark, you

5:08

know. boulders come rolling out my house

5:11

to crush people. They're sitting there with

5:13

a cardboard box full of them paperwork.

5:15

Goes to the dump, stick in the

5:17

back of your car. Are you the

5:20

chimney sweep assistant to Brother Halligan? Is

5:22

that how it worked? Well, the thing

5:24

is I'm always going to be his

5:26

little brother, however old I am, so

5:28

the things I get called out. I'm

5:30

glad you're not here because you took

5:32

up far too many ideas and insults

5:34

that you would know that wheel on

5:36

the planet. Yeah, that is what's

5:39

been going on the domestic front

5:41

on planet Haligan. But meanwhile, Kriki,

5:43

reform. They've been having their own,

5:45

they've been swinging their own mallets,

5:47

haven't they? They've been using their

5:50

own kango drills on the foundations

5:52

of their own party. Yeah, their

5:54

own, exactly. They've been rooped up

5:56

and removing their own chimney breasts,

5:58

haven't they? I mean... just when

6:00

it was all going so well. I

6:02

mean, if you're actually ahead of the

6:04

Labour government and the Conservatives in the

6:06

poll, you know, why not have a

6:08

major meltdown and try and ban one

6:10

of your five MPs just to completely

6:13

self-sabotage everything? I mean, obviously I've written

6:15

about this in the column this week,

6:17

you know, you and I, we have

6:19

been talking, haven't we, to the various

6:21

dramatist persona? And it did make me

6:23

laugh, Liam, but having read my column,

6:25

one... senior reform person was texting and

6:27

fury to say I'd got everything wrong

6:29

at exactly the same moment but another

6:31

senior reform person texted spot-on. So you

6:33

do wonder, I mean it's, there's a

6:35

lot to discuss, there are huge implications

6:37

for this. I would certainly say that

6:39

a lot of people talked on planet

6:41

normal before, but a lot of people,

6:43

not necessarily traditional reform supporters who have

6:46

been joining up recently, swelling the number

6:48

of members to over 220,000. They have

6:50

got that, you know, very interesting lead,

6:52

as you say, with the bookies. And

6:54

now I think there's a lot of

6:56

disappointment. People are bitterly disappointed and angry,

6:58

but it's come down to this sort

7:00

of... public school boy willy-wanging spat you

7:02

know are you team Nigel or team

7:04

Rupert and people think you know I

7:06

think it's Dolly versus Radley darling it

7:08

is I'm I'm I'm familiar with the

7:10

names of the respect minor public schools

7:12

but it is a bit like have

7:14

very grand public schools both well you

7:16

have let you there's a slight feeling

7:18

from normal people whom let's face it

7:21

this party's you know reforms unique selling

7:23

point is supposed to be common sense,

7:25

you know, speaking for the normal person.

7:27

And I think a lot of people

7:29

thinking, have you noticed the countries in

7:31

the toilet? We really don't want, we

7:33

really don't want you having these. you

7:35

know, excruciating, slanging matches. And a couple

7:37

of things to say, really, first of

7:39

all, I think this is the 11th

7:41

or 12th senior person that Nigel Ferrar

7:43

seems to have defenestrated in his political

7:45

career. Many of them. very good and

7:47

able people now Nigel says I don't

7:49

fall out with people they fall out

7:51

with me is that disingenuous or not

7:54

we can also note Liam that Zio

7:56

Yusev rather controversial figure the chairman of

7:58

reform who's in charge of professionalizing the

8:00

party he's causing a lot of eruptions

8:02

obviously is a very very intricate story

8:04

who said what to who But let's

8:06

notice that the Common Sense Party, which

8:08

is supposed to be against council culture,

8:10

has seen the chair of reform reporting

8:12

Rupert Low to the metropolitan police for

8:14

alleged verbal threats. Now again, I think

8:16

that strikes a lot of people as

8:18

being a bit snow flaky for the

8:20

party, which takes a very disapproving attitude

8:22

to snowflakes. What do you think, Hob

8:24

Island? What's going on here? What it

8:26

is of course, you know, reform is

8:29

inching closer to power. I put those

8:31

mention of the betting odds at the

8:33

top because whenever I say that to

8:35

even very seasoned political commentators, they say

8:37

you're wrong, then they say I'm not,

8:39

and then they say you're lying, and

8:41

then they get on their phones and

8:43

they look up the betting odds and

8:45

they're like, oh, you're right. And I

8:47

say, well, yeah, I do, you know,

8:49

tend to, you know, don't present things

8:51

as facts when they're not facts. It

8:53

is astonishing. They're getting closer to power.

8:55

The stakes are getting higher. So the

8:57

egos that are always around at the

8:59

top of politics are getting more and

9:02

more belligerent. I think it's partly that.

9:04

I think it's also because Rupert Low

9:06

himself has amassed a pretty big following

9:08

on Twitter. Yeah, let's be completely clear.

9:10

Maybe one or two percent of the

9:12

population even knows who Rupert Low is,

9:14

right? politicians in the

9:16

world, let alone

9:18

just in the UK,

9:20

Nigel has an

9:22

absolutely massive following around

9:24

the country. And

9:26

maybe Nigel and his

9:28

team think that

9:30

Rupert Lowe is getting

9:32

a bit too

9:34

big for his boots.

9:37

And maybe he

9:39

is because Twitter or

9:41

X is not

9:43

the real world. But

9:45

at the centre

9:47

of this is a

9:49

fundamental disagreement between

9:51

Nigel's team in reform

9:53

and Rupert Lowe

9:55

about the way reform

9:57

should be going

9:59

and the way it

10:01

should be campaigning.

10:03

On the subject of

10:05

immigration, which is

10:07

really the flash point,

10:10

Nigel and his

10:12

team, the party leadership,

10:14

think that the

10:16

whole debate is coming

10:18

their way. Mainstream

10:20

politicians are getting more

10:22

and more exercised

10:24

as their constituents are

10:26

getting more and

10:28

more exercised about immigration

10:30

and in particular,

10:32

illegal immigration, but also,

10:34

you know, legal

10:36

immigration, which of course

10:38

topped a million

10:40

in recent years. And

10:42

they think they

10:45

should just stay where

10:47

they are. Whereas

10:49

Rupert Lowe, in order

10:51

to attract more

10:53

mainstream voters, you know,

10:55

upset Tories, even,

10:57

you know, Labour Red

10:59

Wall voters, many

11:01

of whom voted reform

11:03

when they got

11:05

that 14 % of

11:07

the vote in July

11:09

2024. Rupert

11:12

Lowe wants to have a

11:14

harder, tougher, flintier, grittier message that's

11:16

all about deporting people, you

11:18

know, quite big deportations, really focusing

11:20

on illegal immigration. Now, in

11:22

some sense, Lowe is trying to

11:25

outfarage, farage. And Farage is

11:27

saying, holding no, if we say

11:29

things that can be presented

11:31

as extreme, we are going to

11:33

alienate the very mainstream voters

11:35

that are disillusioned with the Labour

11:37

Party and the Tory Party,

11:39

who we need in order to

11:42

win power. That's

11:49

Nigel Farage's gang and

11:51

Aaron Banks and all those

11:54

guys. And they were

11:56

really quite out there. They

11:58

were seen as being

12:00

more sort of, you know,

12:02

extreme in the eyes

12:05

of many voters and many commentators and that's

12:07

why the vote leave came in under Dominic Cummings

12:09

which had a less extreme message a softer message

12:11

in order to try and convince that middle third

12:14

of the electorate that was undecided about Brexit that

12:16

you could vote for Brexit and not be somebody

12:18

who supported Nigel Farage right now Nigel Farage is

12:20

doing the same thing on a much bigger scale

12:22

because now he's not just vying to leave the

12:25

European Union he's vying to run you know the

12:27

fifth biggest economy in the world and he's got

12:29

You know, according to the betting odds,

12:31

he's not odds on, but he's the

12:33

favourite. He's the person who looks most

12:36

likely according to the weight of money

12:38

in the market. And these betting markets,

12:40

they have flows of millions, tens of

12:42

millions of pounds every day. These odds

12:44

aren't just swayed by a couple of

12:46

reform supporters sitting in the Boysdale Club

12:49

and placing a bet. These odds that

12:51

are produced by the weight of money

12:53

in the market reflect big flows. a

12:55

large number of small bets rather

12:57

than one or two really big

12:59

bets. So what's going on is

13:02

that Nigel Farage thinks reform should

13:04

be coming up with a more

13:06

mainstream message, certainly firm on immigration,

13:08

keeping to the right of the

13:10

Tories, but just to the right

13:13

of the Tories. a newcomer to

13:15

politics it must be said. He's

13:17

been knocking around for a while

13:19

but a newcomer to like big

13:21

league politics which he's now playing

13:23

in certainly not a national figure

13:26

the way Nigel Farage has been

13:28

for you know 10-15 years since

13:30

the early days of UKIP and

13:32

then of course the Brexit party

13:34

and the Brexit referendum. Rupert Low

13:36

wants to take reformer further to

13:38

the right on these key issues

13:40

particularly immigration and Nigel says no and

13:42

that is the fundamental rift between

13:44

between them. Yes, I can

13:46

see that, although I do

13:49

think that increasingly the broader

13:51

public is pretty radicalised about

13:53

these issues we just saw

13:55

just this week, some absolutely

13:57

horrendous statistics from the centre.

14:00

for migration control, tapping into

14:02

things we've been discussing here

14:04

on the podcast recently with

14:06

Alex Phillips, Liam, over 100 ,000

14:08

migrant convictions between 2021 and

14:10

2023, including 38 ,413 for

14:13

crimes relating to violent sexual

14:15

assault drugs and theft. And

14:17

foreign nationals were convicted for

14:19

sexual offences at 71 % the

14:21

rate of the British population

14:23

and the top five young

14:26

men coming in illegally into

14:28

our country, top five nations

14:30

for sexual assault and rape,

14:32

Afghanistan, Eritrean, Namibia, Chad, Moldova,

14:34

I'm a woman with a

14:37

daughter, I don't want any

14:39

of those people in my

14:41

country. And I think that

14:43

Rupert Lowe has expressed some

14:45

of that. He's been extremely

14:47

powerful on calling for a

14:50

national inquiry into the mainly

14:52

Pakistani child rape gangs which

14:54

have fronted the country. And

14:56

I'm absolutely convinced that in

14:58

our lifetime, Liam, we will

15:00

end up having an inquiry

15:03

into that. So while I

15:05

see, I see some sense

15:07

in what you're saying, for

15:09

our position is there is

15:11

this, this isn't just about

15:14

policy, is it? Because this

15:16

is an issue about whether

15:18

a potential Prime Minister is

15:20

capable of working alongside intellectual

15:22

equals successful people. And I

15:24

got in touch with Ben

15:27

Habib, who was another person

15:29

who, a very able businessman,

15:31

who was also on the

15:33

defenestration list by Nigel Farage.

15:35

Did a lot to build

15:37

up reform support, didn't he?

15:40

Before Nigel Farage joined reform,

15:42

when Nigel Farage said he

15:44

might not stand for reform.

15:46

Yes, and Ben, I think

15:48

is rightly, I don't agree

15:51

with Ben that they would

15:53

have done as well at

15:55

the general election had Nigel

15:57

not jumped on board. I

15:59

don't agree with that. I,

16:01

I, I, sorry, I think

16:04

Nigel is box office. Yes,

16:06

he's Marmite, but he's a,

16:08

he's the canny. you know, picture to

16:10

the public that we have. But this is what Ben

16:12

Habib said to me. I basically said to Ben Habib

16:14

yesterday, yes, I get that you and Rupa are aggrieved

16:17

that there aren't formal policies. But if you go away

16:19

and take your toys away in a strop and form

16:21

another party of the right, all that you're going to

16:23

do is give comfort to your enemies. Is that what

16:25

you want? And Ben Hab replied, Allison. Even if Nigel

16:28

Farage becomes Prime Minister, he will not save the country.

16:30

He will be without serious intellectual

16:32

depths or breadth around him because

16:34

he cannot bear sharing the limelight.

16:36

It will be Nigel and his

16:38

sycophantic side kicks. And he's also

16:40

fast moving left. Today he recruited

16:43

a Liberal Democrat. He wanted the

16:45

arch-remainer and COVID Jab support to

16:47

Charlie Mullins as a candidate. I

16:49

could go on and on. And

16:51

Ben Hab finished his message to

16:53

me. the ideology or ability to

16:55

save the UK. A sense of

16:57

right and wrong as well as

17:00

a sense of right and left

17:02

are confused. Now we can debate

17:04

that limb. I am I am

17:06

very conflicted about this. I have

17:08

to say this because I'm extremely

17:10

disappointed by the treatment of very

17:13

respectable, Rupert Low, you know, we

17:15

hear that he's been a bit

17:17

of a nightmare behind the scenes,

17:19

he's been overbearing. I think there

17:21

is a proper concern. amongst

17:23

reform supporters and people who might

17:26

be reform supporters about whether this

17:28

party has got a sort of

17:30

democratic instincts that could they should

17:33

now as Ben Hab and Rupert

17:35

Lowe are arguing they should be

17:37

putting together people who could run.

17:40

the home office, people who could

17:42

run the foreign office. Now, Rupert

17:44

Low, I think this is partly

17:46

a conflict between a businessman, Rupert

17:49

Low, very successful, worth 30 million,

17:51

you know, has been involved with

17:53

Southampton Football Club. He employs

17:56

350 people. He's used to

17:58

getting things done, right? probably

18:00

doesn't. And he's used to getting

18:02

his own way. He's used to

18:04

getting his own way and suddenly

18:06

he's in this arena where... As

18:09

Farage knows, you know, politics is

18:11

the art of the possible Liam,

18:13

isn't it? Politics isn't just, you

18:15

know, we're going to deport all

18:17

these Pakistani families because, you know,

18:20

their brother-in-law, you know, raped 15

18:22

white girls. You might, you might,

18:24

if you were angry and upset,

18:26

you might stand up and say

18:28

that, but as you say, that's

18:31

not something that, you know, a

18:33

mainstream politician can dump on the

18:35

electric from a great height. What

18:37

do you think Liam? because there's

18:40

a lot of there's mounting antagonism.

18:42

to the chairman, Zia Yusuf, not

18:44

just for issuing this very angry

18:46

statement about Rupert Low, but there's

18:48

concern across the country where lots

18:51

of people are flocking to volunteer

18:53

to run branches for reform. It's

18:55

a very, very lively movement now.

18:57

People have been very hopeful. You

18:59

know, there's a hope. There's a

19:02

real stirring of hope. Perhaps we

19:04

can turn the direction of the

19:06

country away from this. authoritarian woke

19:08

country that millions of British people

19:10

don't like. But there is concern

19:13

about the leadership, whether they are

19:15

too controlling. You know, I've heard

19:17

people saying, you know, are there

19:19

forces within who are acting even

19:21

against Nigel's best interests. What do

19:24

you think there's any, there are

19:26

any grounds for that? you know

19:28

hugely well-versed with the the internal

19:30

workings of reform obviously like you

19:32

it's our job I know a

19:35

lot of the senior people involved

19:37

and quite quite a lot of

19:39

the junior people too just like

19:41

I know you know people across

19:43

the Tory party the Labour Party

19:46

the Lib Dems and even the

19:48

Greens it's what we do for

19:50

a living it's part of what

19:52

we do for a living but

19:54

I would say this whatever the

19:57

right and wrongs of what Ben

19:59

and Rupert Both of whom I've got respect

20:01

for, both of whom I've seen in

20:03

action and are very skilled political communicators

20:05

and are successful business people who have

20:07

committed to themselves to politics and public

20:10

life. And that is something I want

20:12

to encourage. These people don't need, they're

20:14

not doing it for the money, right?

20:16

They don't need the agro, but they

20:18

do it because they genuinely... want their

20:20

country to be run in a way

20:22

that in their view is the right

20:24

way and that's a very very honourable

20:26

thing that's the whole animus and spark

20:28

of democracy itself but the reality is

20:31

even though a lot of Westminster

20:33

is fixated on this and even

20:35

those you rightly say they're very

20:38

vibrant reform grassroots organization which I've seen

20:40

with my own eyes. I went to a

20:42

rally to have a look at what was

20:44

going on with a bunch of other journalists

20:46

and it was electric. The atmosphere there was

20:48

electric and I saw all kinds of people

20:50

there that I know who basically you know

20:52

were quite high up in the Tory party

20:54

locally and to be at that rally they

20:56

unless they were a journalist they had to

20:59

be a reform member right so something's definitely

21:01

happening and many of these people will be

21:03

holding their head in their hands because they

21:05

know these when these splits and factions and

21:07

in fighting and nastiness of politics which is

21:09

pretty inevitable in all countries that I've

21:11

lived in and studied and studied closely

21:13

it happens everywhere then it plays into

21:15

the hands of reforms enemies, not just

21:17

on the left, but also the right

21:19

of politics, the Tory party. And it

21:21

may, you know, can't you guys just

21:23

get on? I thought you guys were

21:25

different from all these machine politicians. You're

21:27

so ridiculous, you're so ridiculous. And all

21:29

that is true. And all that is

21:31

true. But how is this going to

21:33

work out? The way it's going to

21:35

work out is that most of the

21:37

country doesn't know who Rupert low and Ben

21:40

Habib are unfair as that is, and they're

21:42

just going to vote for Nigel. That is

21:44

the reality. This party,

21:47

as far as the vast

21:49

majority of the country,

21:51

is Nigel Farage. Now

21:53

they did get to 13, 40%

21:56

of the vote before he

21:58

came in to join, but... it

22:00

was you know he was always going

22:02

to be part of it in some

22:04

shape or form whether or not he

22:06

was going to actually run in the

22:09

election that was these he still owned

22:11

the party right he still founded the

22:13

party everybody knew as far as his

22:15

party the question was would he actually

22:18

run and I'm sure again the vast

22:20

majority of the electorate assumed that he

22:22

always would run anyway they didn't have

22:24

the nuances about oh will he go

22:26

to America what's he going to do

22:29

that people like you and I follow

22:31

politics closely politics closely have. Look, politics,

22:33

it's not a nursery, it's an unfair

22:35

game. It's a game of egos and

22:38

brute strength and nastiness. And much as

22:40

I feel bad for good people coming

22:42

in and getting their nose whacked out

22:44

of joint, when they're saying things that

22:47

are perfectly reasonable and wanting a political

22:49

party to be founded on more democratic

22:51

principles, so on. I don't endorse this

22:53

in any way, but the reality is

22:55

that that is not going to happen

22:58

in this case. And I can't see

23:00

anyone dislodging Nigel Farage, Elon Musk, group

23:02

at low or anyone else from the

23:04

top of the reform party and him

23:07

getting his way because for most of

23:09

the electorate he is the reform party.

23:11

Now it may be that as a

23:13

result of this opening up of... the

23:16

internal warfare to public eyes or at

23:18

least the part of the public that's

23:20

really focused on it like like we

23:22

are it may be that that causes

23:24

Nigel and Richard Tice and the other

23:27

people around them to just take stock

23:29

and think well maybe we do need

23:31

to open up the team a bit

23:33

and maybe we do need to build

23:36

a proper shadow cabinet. It's hard to

23:38

build a shadow cabinet though when you've

23:40

only got five MPs. Now we've got

23:42

a by-election coming up, reform could win

23:44

it, right? They came second last time.

23:47

I reckon as the general election approaches,

23:49

let's assumed in 2009, I've said to

23:51

you many times and I think you

23:53

agree. from their 5 MPs now or

23:56

4.5 or whatever Rupert Low currently is

23:58

with respect to him, they're going to

24:00

have 10... or 15 MPs at some

24:02

of the next election because of by-elections

24:05

like the one that's coming up and

24:07

defections. Now this row will stop defections

24:09

for a while. This row will dent

24:11

support for the party at Westminster for

24:13

a while. This row will give Kemmy

24:16

Badenock a bit of breathing space for

24:18

a while because the people in her

24:20

party who are screaming at her to

24:22

say more on policy in order to

24:25

try and head off reforms rise in

24:27

the polls. will be slightly reassured that

24:29

reform itself for now at least

24:31

seems to be imploding. But the

24:33

direction of travel here is clear.

24:36

I'm saying this is a professional

24:38

judgment, not necessarily something I want

24:40

to happen. The direction of travel

24:42

is clear. Support for reform is

24:44

building because public angst as the

24:47

economy gets worse, as the immigration

24:49

numbers go up. There's more and

24:51

more public angst about these issues

24:53

and that will... lead to an

24:55

ongoing upward trend in support of

24:57

reform in my view, even though

25:00

there will be some pretty major

25:02

schools along the way of which

25:04

this is one. Tell you what,

25:06

Liam, as this is what, that's

25:08

what Nigel always says when he's

25:10

trying to get out of a

25:12

question. Tell you what? So people

25:14

have said to me, Allison, would

25:16

you run? And then I'm thinking,

25:19

no, not entering that boys

25:21

club. Other people they could

25:23

do with having. They need

25:25

some senior women to break

25:27

up the testosterone. Suela, who

25:29

might have been a likely,

25:31

a possible defection, Suela Braverman.

25:34

Mirie, the great, you know,

25:36

great, Suela Braverman, Miriam, Kate.

25:38

Formatory MP. Alex Phillips, see we

25:40

had, yep. Alex Phillips who we

25:43

had on the show to Hannah

25:45

Davison, also you know former very

25:47

very fire brand North Eastern former

25:50

Tory MPs. There's some very senior

25:52

women they could have looked at

25:54

you know possibly attracting and strengthening

25:57

that top team. I'm telling you

25:59

Liam that no woman is going

26:01

to go near them if that's

26:03

how they behave. Okay, this willy-wanging,

26:06

we don't have willies to wang,

26:08

so we're not going to go. And

26:10

a lot of female voters who are

26:12

looking as if they might back them,

26:14

they will be more than cheesed off,

26:17

they'll be repelled by what's going on,

26:19

right? Because they don't want to

26:21

be associated with this kind of

26:23

culture. No, but let's going back

26:25

to this fact of Rupert low.

26:28

Very recently he gave an interview

26:30

to Andrew Pierce at the Daily

26:32

Mail where he took it upon

26:34

himself to announce we have to

26:36

change from being a protest party

26:38

led by the Messiah. No political

26:40

party, no leader of a political

26:43

party would put up with that

26:45

kind of insubordination. They just wouldn't.

26:47

So I'm afraid that, you know,

26:49

admirable as he is in many

26:51

ways, he has been... extremely naive

26:53

and I think he and Ben

26:56

Habib have underestimated how you know

26:58

how Nigel's box office you know

27:00

he doesn't appeal to everyone but

27:02

he has had an extraordinary impact

27:04

bringing people to the kind of

27:07

rallies you attended but it will

27:09

it will rumble on and just

27:11

to say perhaps finally in one

27:13

of my concerns as someone who

27:15

wants to see this labor government

27:18

kicked out is reform Whatever

27:20

you may think about

27:22

the electoral chances, reform

27:24

performs a very valuable role

27:26

in keeping the Conservatives honest

27:28

or at least in stiffening

27:30

the sinews. of the Conservatives,

27:33

where it might be, you

27:35

know, potentially succumbing to the

27:37

sort of Lib Dem tendency,

27:39

it basically says, if you

27:41

don't shore up your right

27:43

wing, we're going to eat

27:45

you for lunch. And I

27:47

want to see that threat

27:49

there, because I'm hoping at

27:51

the 2020-29 general election, we're

27:53

going to see some proper,

27:55

you know, anti-authoritarian, you

27:57

know, right wing economic...

28:00

literate free market offering and I

28:02

don't want reform to descend into

28:04

you know ridiculous into an e-sign

28:06

squabblig particularly when it's you know

28:08

got a tiny number of MPs.

28:10

I think there's a lot of

28:12

sense in that Alison I think

28:14

your analysis is is spot-on and

28:16

you know we're not we're not

28:18

averse to disagree when we disagree

28:20

are we but but and that

28:22

I think people who aren't regular

28:24

listens to planet normal should understand

28:26

that. When we agree, we agree,

28:28

and when we disagree, we respectfully

28:31

disagree, don't we? And I think

28:33

that's one of the secrets of

28:35

the magic of this podcast, if

28:37

I may be so bold to

28:39

say. Look, we have spent a

28:41

bit of time and reform. I

28:43

think that's right. It's a really

28:45

important phenomenon in the UK. I

28:47

did want to talk a bit

28:49

about Trump's trade tariffs. Just for

28:51

one or two sentences sentences. So

28:53

we can keep the podcast to

28:55

the regular length. I know we

28:57

want to talk also about your

28:59

case with the Essex Police, which

29:01

is, and it's very important, I

29:03

know a lot of people are

29:05

interested in that, and Planet Normal

29:07

is the place where they get

29:10

their info, up-to-day info about that

29:12

case, your free speech case, which

29:14

lots and lots of people are

29:16

following. But just briefly on Trump,

29:18

so I wrote a column at

29:20

the weekend, Link in the Share

29:22

notes to this episode about these

29:24

tariffs. And I got quite a

29:26

lot of abuse for it from

29:28

various people I know on the

29:30

right of British politics who have

29:32

got to the stage now where

29:34

they think Trump can do no

29:36

wrong. He is the Messiah. And

29:38

then, you know, I find that

29:40

political people, they spend so long

29:42

thinking about policy and politics and

29:44

yet they don't actually ever make

29:46

up, come to their own conclusions.

29:49

They just want to follow all

29:51

the time. Even if... People I

29:53

know who are pleased that Trump

29:55

won the US election, it doesn't

29:57

mean you have to agree with

29:59

everything he says, you know? You

30:01

have to pick and choose. I

30:03

mean, that's the sign I think

30:05

of an intelligent person. And I'm

30:07

against these tariffs. I think these

30:09

tariffs are incredibly dangerous. I do

30:11

think they're... Well, they are, objectively,

30:13

the most serious instances of US

30:15

protectionism since the Smoot-Hoorley Tariffs of

30:17

1930 to 1935, which did... presage,

30:19

the Great Depression, they just did.

30:21

A lot of economic historians would

30:23

say that those tariffs, the US

30:25

isolationism, and in particular the reciprocal

30:28

tariffs, the retaliatory tariffs that other

30:30

countries put on, and we're seeing

30:32

retaliatory tariffs now being put on

30:34

against America, not just from the

30:36

Chinese, with lots of war-mongering rhetoric

30:38

from the Chinese, but also the

30:40

EU put on retaliatory tariffs, Canadians.

30:42

It was the retaliatory tariffs. countries

30:44

upping their trade barriers because America

30:46

was upping their trade barriers that

30:48

turned the 1929 Wall Street crash

30:50

into that Great Depression. And during

30:52

that Great Depression, U.S. unemployment, which

30:54

was high in 1930 when the

30:56

tariffs came in, Smoot-Haulay Tariffs, named

30:58

after the two lawmakers who introduced

31:00

them, was 8% in 1930. U.S.

31:02

unemployment by 1936 was 22%. And

31:04

a lot of the reason for

31:07

that was because the tariffs made

31:09

it so much more expensive to

31:11

import the goods that people needed

31:13

to make other goods, the inputs,

31:15

and they made life so much

31:17

more difficult for consumers. Now at

31:19

that time, US trade was a

31:21

much lower share of the whole

31:23

US economy than it is now.

31:25

So it strikes me that tariffs

31:27

could be even more potent now

31:29

in terms of damaging the US

31:31

economy. And guess what? It's not

31:33

just... former academics, historians like me

31:35

saying this, look at financial markets.

31:37

Yeah, they are being mulled. They

31:39

are mulled by... I love that

31:41

word. It's another planet normal word,

31:43

isn't it? They are being hammered

31:46

by these tariffs, not just the

31:48

sort of the switchback, the gyrations,

31:50

the convulsions, because Trump is bait

31:52

switch, tariffs, or on off, trying

31:54

to completely discompobulate the lead. of

31:56

other countries about what he's going

31:58

to do next. The general direction

32:00

of travel is clear. The US

32:02

is going to become more protectionist

32:04

even if Trump is slightly bluffing

32:06

to get his own way on

32:08

other aspects of geopolitics and help

32:10

with the borders, candor and Mexico

32:12

and he doesn't want fentanyl coming

32:14

in. Whatever is ultimate reasoning is,

32:16

the US is going to become

32:18

more protectionist and the financial markets

32:20

really don't like that. and they

32:22

feel that's going to lead to

32:25

inflation and I feel that's going

32:27

to lead to inflation and I've

32:29

been writing that for you know six

32:31

months to a year when it seemed

32:33

that Trump was going to re-emerge as

32:35

US president that Trump's tariffs will prove

32:37

inflationary and they will prove inflationary and

32:39

I do think they are going to

32:41

seriously cast a shadow over the world economy

32:44

for several years to come because once

32:46

tariffs are up it's really hard to

32:48

dismantle them. because politicians don't want

32:51

to dismantle tariffs because their

32:53

own domestic vested interests and

32:56

industries build businesses behind those

32:58

tariff walls. And then they don't want

33:00

those tariffs removed. It took us until

33:02

the late 70s, early 80s to even

33:05

start dismantling a lot of the Depression-era

33:07

tariffs that happened before the Second World.

33:09

So I do really worry about these tariffs

33:12

and you know that has led quite a

33:14

lot of people to attack me but you

33:16

know bring it on we'll see who's right.

33:18

I think you're absolutely right Liam you

33:21

know you've got the left with

33:23

the orange man bad you know

33:25

just obviously demonizing Trump he can

33:27

do no right and then equally

33:30

on the more right-hand side of the

33:32

page you've got people who as you

33:34

say just feel they have to sort

33:36

of slavishly applaud you know no I

33:38

think that... To be honest, I thought, you

33:40

know, banning intelligence to Ukraine

33:42

for the short period that he

33:44

did, it was absolutely morally disgusting.

33:46

I mean, you don't just dump

33:48

your ally like that. I mean,

33:51

leaving cities, men, women, children exposed

33:53

to that, that was absolutely a

33:55

appalling thing to do. And some

33:57

people might say, well, he was

33:59

maneuvering for... Yeah, he was, but

34:01

we could still say I broadly

34:04

welcome the defeat of Kamala Harris

34:06

because I thought that we

34:08

just have, you know, absolutely

34:10

more sort of sinister woke

34:12

authoritarianism ushered in if the

34:14

Democrats won with her. But you're

34:16

right, we don't have to

34:18

celebrate everything that Trump does.

34:20

I just quickly looked up Liam

34:23

that the UK exports around

34:25

200,000 tons of steel to

34:27

the United States. Sorry, go

34:29

on. Did you ever

34:31

think your journalistic career

34:33

would involve you scissed

34:35

and steel exports to

34:37

economics commentators? Even when I

34:40

was looking it up, I thought, there's

34:42

a big piece of piss going to

34:44

be taken here, isn't it? It's

34:46

lucky, you know, I'm here with cards.

34:48

I don't know what a podcast is.

34:50

Well, I don't even know what the

34:53

Smolly Watts it is, so, you know,

34:55

I mean, you can quote. Spelly more

34:57

sense. But no, I just want to

34:59

make the point in your email. Hold

35:01

on, hold on, I'm just going to get

35:03

my pencil out so I can take a

35:05

note of these words of wisdom. So I'm

35:07

licking the end of it now right then

35:10

Governor Offico. I'm ready. The biggest export in

35:12

the United States is, come on, you're

35:14

starting for 10. Services. Cars? Well

35:16

it says cars on my bit of

35:18

paper. Yeah because that's you're looking at

35:20

the goods export. I'm looking at the

35:22

goods export. Yeah, okay. So you

35:24

in your very good column on

35:27

the tariff. People should find that

35:29

in the show notes. You accused

35:31

Trump of economic illiteracy. So let's

35:33

just look at this quickly. If

35:35

the UK exports around 200,000 tons

35:37

of steel for the US with

35:39

the value of over... 400 million

35:42

pounds. Let us ponder the economic

35:44

and other illiteracy of our own

35:46

government, which has recently closed our

35:48

major steelworks in Port Albert, so

35:50

that it's all very well starmer,

35:52

sort of getting his knickers in

35:54

a twist about tariffs. But tariffs

35:57

on what? We're not actually going

35:59

to be... making much steel

36:01

and also Liam let

36:03

us ponder the exquisite

36:05

idiocy of announcing rearmament

36:07

when we have got rich

36:10

just closed down. Please when we

36:12

make virgin steel. Oh no don't

36:14

worry we've got a blast furnace

36:17

in Scunthorpe. Oh oh oh oh

36:19

it's owned by the Chinese. Our

36:23

last blast furnace on British

36:25

territories owned by the Chinese.

36:28

We're laughing, but you know,

36:30

crikey. Otherwise you'd cry. We're

36:33

going to do a tiny Velma

36:35

stat, just so you go.

36:37

Right. This is the update

36:39

on the, what Richard Ties

36:41

calls, net, uh, net stupid

36:44

zero. North Fault AB, another

36:46

thing you'll laugh at me

36:48

for finding out, North Salt

36:51

AB is Swedish battery manufacturer,

36:53

huge battery manufacturer for electric

36:55

vehicles has just filed for

36:58

bankruptcy, having been unable to

37:00

raise financing to secure its

37:02

future. This Liam is the

37:04

kind of green venture, which

37:06

is what Ed Miliband is

37:08

currently pouring. tens of millions,

37:10

indeed hundreds of millions of

37:13

UK taxpayers. Ed Miliband.

37:15

He not only looks like beaker

37:17

off the muppets, he is the

37:19

Alan Partridge of Politics. He certainly

37:21

is. Come

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time price participation in selection may

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38:31

on to our planet normal guest.

38:33

Charlotte Gills a print and

38:35

broadcast investigative journalist who founded

38:37

and runs Woke Waste, a

38:39

website that examines in her

38:41

words how taxpayers are funding

38:43

their own demise. Charlotte's writing

38:46

and broadcasting, hosted by

38:48

the increasingly popular online

38:50

platform substak, has quickly attracted

38:52

thousands of subscribers and now receives

38:55

tens of thousands of views per

38:57

month. Charlotte launched Wake Waste before

38:59

the launch of the Department for

39:02

Government Efficiency or Doge in the

39:04

US headed by Donald Trump advisor

39:06

that man again, the millionaire

39:08

entrepreneur Elon Musk. and she since

39:11

launched Doe's UK, a company that

39:13

aims to order and make recommendations

39:15

about how to tackle waste across

39:17

the UK's public sector. At a

39:19

time of course, when Britain's tax

39:21

burden, already heading for a 70-year

39:23

high when the Tories left office

39:25

last July, is under labour now

39:27

set to increase even more. Having

39:29

previously written for the Telegraph Times

39:31

and the critic as well as

39:34

being a researcher and producer at

39:36

various broadcast outlets Charlotte's an experienced

39:38

journalist who's decided to go it

39:41

alone forging her own path on

39:43

her own self-created platform amidst huge

39:45

challenges across the media industry as

39:47

a whole. She's also launched the aptly

39:50

named Charlotte's Web which aims to follow

39:52

a map-out left-wing networks of money and

39:54

influence with a view to reducing interference

39:56

in her view in British politics. She's

39:59

now making a modest living from her

40:01

startup journalism, working as her own boss, and

40:03

as a team of volunteers, helping her with

40:05

her work. Here's Charlotte Gill. Charlotte Gill. Welcome

40:07

back to Planet Normal. Great to have you

40:09

on the rocket of right thinking. What is

40:12

woke waste? Thanks very much for having me,

40:14

Liam and Allison. I call Wakeway the biggest

40:16

scandal you've never heard of, essentially how the

40:18

taxpayer is funding their own demise. Essentially, most

40:20

people know all about woke and how it's

40:23

captured our institutions, but what I've found through

40:25

a series of inadvertent rabbit holes is how

40:27

much of it worth funding. billions in total

40:29

I reckon so yeah that's the rabbit hole

40:31

I've been trawling down for over a year

40:33

and a half now. Now I've known you

40:36

for quite a few years we've worked together

40:38

in various guises you're a very analytical person

40:40

if I may say so and now you've

40:42

trained your analytical guns on the use of

40:44

taxpayers money for causes which you think are

40:47

a bit mad particularly those that are woke.

40:49

Give us some example Charlotte. Yeah so there's

40:51

an enormous mixture I'm sure your listeners will

40:53

be very pleased to hear from there's a

40:55

lot of government quangos so especially in the

40:57

arts sector you've got the arts council England

41:00

which we give 445 million per year to

41:02

and it funds the likes of Soho theatre.

41:04

giving it just under two million and it's

41:06

put on shows like 52 monologues for young

41:08

transsexuals. Patty Harrison my tits my huge tips

41:11

huge because they are infected not fake and

41:13

a comedy show where white audience members are

41:15

encouraged to check their privilege out the door

41:17

and then you've got the arts you've got

41:19

universities we're spending billions there just on

41:21

£9 billion on the

41:24

university quango going to

41:26

some real nonsense that

41:28

we can dig into.

41:30

And then you've got

41:32

more, I'd say one

41:35

of the worst areas

41:37

that would worry taxpayers

41:39

is the funding going

41:41

into charities. We think

41:43

that they're just about

41:45

good causes, but a

41:48

lot of them are

41:50

lobbying for open borders

41:52

with our money. Tell

41:54

us about some of

41:56

the most shocking examples

41:59

that you've come across.

42:01

Charities, for instance, that

42:03

are being funded by

42:05

the taxpayer, which you

42:07

feel are not the

42:09

kind of charities that,

42:12

to be frank, the

42:14

vast majority of the

42:16

British electorate would want

42:18

funded. Sure. So the

42:20

Paul Hamlin Foundation, from

42:23

2019 to 23, it's

42:25

had just under £1 .4

42:27

million from British taxpayers.

42:29

And the Paul Hamlin

42:31

Foundation explicitly believes in

42:33

open borders. It says

42:36

we envision a world

42:38

in which everyone is

42:40

free to move and

42:42

no one is forced

42:44

to move, and it's

42:47

got its own migration

42:49

fund. And it gives

42:51

this to other charities,

42:53

such as Hope, Not

42:55

Tate, Charitable Limited, which

42:57

then uses that for

43:00

lobbying. It gives it

43:02

to a whole load

43:04

of other. It essentially

43:06

moves the money down

43:08

the food chain to

43:11

other smaller outfits that

43:13

then lobby for open

43:15

borders. Basically, you've got

43:17

the Joint Council for

43:19

the Welfare of Immigrants,

43:21

that gets money from

43:24

the Paul Hamlin Foundation.

43:26

And last year, it

43:28

celebrated blocking flights to

43:30

Rwanda. So that gives

43:32

you an idea of

43:35

how the flow of

43:37

money goes from taxpayers

43:39

and other organisations to

43:41

directly blocking any attempts

43:43

to have controlled borders.

43:45

What would you say

43:48

to those who argue

43:50

back, Charlotte, that these

43:52

are charities, you know,

43:54

they can exist, they're

43:56

free to raise money?

43:59

Is your objection the

44:01

existence? of these charities with which you

44:03

disagree or the fact that taxpayer's money is

44:05

being used to back them? I think there's

44:07

a problem with both elements.

44:10

I think you have basically one

44:12

issue is the taxpayer money.

44:14

You have the taxpayers voting

44:16

for governments that are saying

44:18

one thing. Say, for instance, the Conservative

44:20

government was telling taxpayers it's going

44:23

to control the borders and stop

44:25

the small boats, and then it's

44:27

funding the opposite. So it makes

44:30

mockery of democracy if you vote

44:32

for one thing, but then your

44:34

taxpayer money, unbeknown to you, is

44:36

being put towards the opposite. But

44:39

I also think there's a bigger

44:41

danger with NGOs generally. Most of

44:43

them are just politically active and

44:46

far left in a way that

44:48

the... right would never be

44:50

able to get away with.

44:52

And even philanthropic trusts, funding

44:55

charities, it's potentially opening up

44:57

Britain to lots of foreign

45:00

interference meddling that's not good

45:02

for Brits. Tell us how

45:04

your investigations have led to

45:06

you on earthing British taxpayers

45:09

funding students from overseas.

45:11

So when I first started

45:13

to do my investigations, I

45:16

was mainly looking at grants,

45:18

I couldn't believe my eyes,

45:20

the amount of taxpayer money

45:23

that had been given to

45:25

the most ridiculous study. The

45:27

one that people are always

45:29

made shocked by is the

45:31

Europe that gay porn built,

45:34

1945 to 2000, for 840,000

45:36

pounds. And I soon started

45:38

noticing that there would be...

45:41

talk of travel on these grants

45:43

so that's another slightly separate interrelated

45:45

issue but people being sent off

45:47

to far off long locations to

45:49

do this important research but I

45:52

also started to notice the amount

45:54

of foreign students that we were

45:56

funding and Brits are told often

45:58

that foreign students the only things

46:00

holding our universities together and that

46:03

there's an element of truth to

46:05

that of course they are charged

46:07

I think fairly unethically huge amounts

46:09

but but also we're subsidizing masses

46:11

of them and I think there's

46:13

there are really big questions to

46:15

ask about why this is happening

46:17

I think in general there's a

46:20

big diversity push with trying to

46:22

recruit from the international community and

46:24

what's that all about and why

46:26

are we paying for it? Now,

46:28

your activities of course predated the

46:30

election of President Trump, of course.

46:32

You've been running your sub-stack for

46:35

quite a long time now. You've

46:37

amassed a fair few subscribers. You're

46:39

making your living now, aren't you,

46:41

out of this? And yet, since

46:43

the election of President Trump in

46:45

the states, of course, we've had

46:47

the foundation under Elon Musk, no

46:50

less, of the Department of Government

46:52

efficiency or Doge. To what extent

46:54

do you think this real focus

46:56

on where taxpayer's money is going,

46:58

some of the mad things in

47:00

the eyes of many it's being

47:02

spent on? To what extent do

47:05

you think, Charlotte, this is now

47:07

going to spread beyond America, into

47:09

the UK and elsewhere? I think

47:11

the potential for it to spread

47:13

is enormous. When Doge was first

47:15

getting started in the US, I

47:17

woke up and I had people

47:19

messaging me like, Charlotte, Charlotte, look.

47:22

And people in the UK... There's

47:24

been a real explosion of interest

47:26

in the topic, but also it

47:28

is affecting other countries. When I've

47:30

done podcasts, I always have little

47:32

trouble through the comments afterwards and

47:34

people say, can you come and

47:37

do Australia? Can you come and

47:39

do New Zealand? Can you come

47:41

and do X? I've even seen

47:43

stuff in India that's along the

47:45

same lines. So I think there's

47:47

a really... big global issue and

47:49

a lot of it is globally

47:52

coordinated as people that are trying

47:54

to promote movements of the same

47:56

ideology and ideas. So I think

47:58

there's a huge escape for it

48:00

and I think I think I

48:02

also think we should play them

48:04

at their own game because they

48:07

are inverted commerce globalists and the

48:09

people fighting back against this can,

48:11

there's a power in numbers so

48:13

we can be more effective the

48:15

more of us we mobilise globally

48:17

without sounding a bit ominous there

48:19

but you understand my drift I'm

48:21

sure. Charlotte you're obviously if I

48:24

may say so a relatively young

48:26

woman to what extent do you

48:28

think your generation is sick of

48:30

the British state? wasting taxpayers money.

48:32

There's a lot of talk about

48:34

intergenerational conflict, yo boomer, the pensions

48:36

are taking all the money, the

48:39

triple lock, your generation's having tremendous

48:41

trouble, buying homes and all the

48:43

rest of it. How popular is

48:45

this kind of stuff among your

48:47

peer group? I actually don't think

48:49

it's very popular on aggregate. I

48:51

mean I tend to, a lot

48:54

of my friends are in politics

48:56

and quite similar wavelength to me

48:58

so I probably get a distorted

49:00

idea of the general population but...

49:02

I have had friends fall out

49:04

with me because they think what

49:06

I'm doing is disgraceful or whatever

49:09

below the pale. So I don't

49:11

think it's that popular. I think

49:13

people still have this idea that

49:15

we had austerity that people like

49:17

me are coming for the arts

49:19

and humanities and that were Philostines

49:21

rather than understanding that it's, I

49:23

would say, a large scale scandal

49:26

of waste. So what really drives

49:28

you to do this Charlotte? Where

49:30

does this determination come from? I

49:32

think genuinely patriotism. There is a

49:34

commercial aspect, no one's writing about

49:36

it, and I'm a journalist at

49:38

the end of the day, so

49:41

it's interesting for me to seize

49:43

upon this area that hasn't been

49:45

touched upon, but ultimately it's patriotism,

49:47

it keeps me awake at night,

49:49

the intense worry about the amount

49:51

of stuff we're wasting money on,

49:53

because if we do not get

49:56

this fixed... To me it just

49:58

seems game over. It's just going

50:00

completely the wrong trajectory for the

50:02

West and it's ruining our economy.

50:04

It's also going to really press

50:06

into our security with these open

50:08

border NGOs. So I am expanding

50:11

precisely because other people want to

50:13

join the mission to stop this.

50:15

You're more than expanding. You've actually

50:17

established a company, haven't you doge

50:19

UK? Could this be something that

50:21

the government takes up? Are you

50:23

in touch with anyone? in government

50:25

or indeed in other political parties

50:28

about your activities? Yeah, so last

50:30

week I started the company of

50:32

Doe GK and got an amazing

50:34

voluntary team. I am in touch

50:36

with cross-party apart from labour and...

50:38

and all the lefty ones, but

50:40

I have been in touch with

50:43

a few members of government. I

50:45

know, you know, reforms been interested

50:47

in it. Kemi is actually very

50:49

sound on wokish since she totally

50:51

understands. Long before she was leader...

50:53

And he made not, of course,

50:55

the Tory leader. Yeah, sorry, calling

50:58

her Kemi for short, but long

51:00

before she became leader, she was

51:02

interested in it and she understood...

51:04

what the scale of the challenge

51:06

beneath the surface. So the hope

51:08

with the company is to be

51:10

able to put forward policy suggestions

51:13

to number one to be able

51:15

to audit all the wokery beneath

51:17

the surface and I'm doing that

51:19

with the help of an incredible

51:21

voluntary team that are mapping left-wing

51:23

patronage networks but also to ensure

51:25

that we have a plan some

51:27

suggestions for what they can. cut

51:30

out essentially all reform when whoever

51:32

next elected power is if it's

51:34

a right leaning one. You know

51:36

Charlotte I think you're I know

51:38

you as a naturally quite modest

51:40

person I think you're really onto

51:42

something you may think that or

51:45

you may say that among your

51:47

peer group this stuff isn't very

51:49

popular and I'm sure many of

51:51

your friends in inverted commons have

51:53

given you a really hard time

51:55

but I personally think there's a

51:57

big silent majority of people out

52:00

there who will be cheering. you

52:02

on with this work. Tell us

52:04

about your substat, tell us how

52:06

it's grown and you are basically

52:08

making your living from this now,

52:10

right? Yeah, people have been enormously

52:12

generous. So I started my sub

52:15

stack in February last year because

52:17

I knew people would be really,

52:19

who doesn't want to know how

52:21

their taxpayer money is being wasted

52:23

and it just, it grew from

52:25

there, it was getting a few

52:27

hundred views per article at the

52:29

start and now it's getting, sometimes

52:32

it's got over a hundred thousand

52:34

views per month and huge amount

52:36

of interest and I've got... Yeah,

52:38

like built up a really good

52:40

subscriber base now. Everyone's very loyal.

52:42

People have, because the money they're

52:44

giving me goes directly to my

52:47

research. I am funded now by

52:49

subscriptions and little, well, very generous

52:51

in some cases, payments on different

52:53

payment, web links, buy me a

52:55

coffee. So yeah, every penny is

52:57

going towards obsessive researching. And it

52:59

has become a movement, you know,

53:02

the fact that I've got volunteers.

53:04

that's how passionate people feel about

53:06

it and I think sometimes it's

53:08

easy to think with our political

53:10

class and everything going on in

53:12

the country God what's happened to

53:14

Britain so are we an intelligent

53:17

nation anymore but actually the people

53:19

that I speak to for my

53:21

research are so encouraging in terms

53:23

of being so incredibly intelligent and

53:25

having so and I'm offered so

53:27

many different ideas for how to

53:29

deal with it that I actually

53:31

can't reply to everyone really sophisticated

53:34

ideas so that's very that leaves

53:36

you with real optimism. Tell planet

53:38

normal listeners who may not be

53:40

familiar just in a nutshell what

53:42

sub stack is and what you

53:44

think sub stack is doing to

53:46

the UK and indeed the world's

53:49

media landscape. Sub stack I think

53:51

it's incredible when when I first

53:53

when it first came on the

53:55

scene I wasn't I didn't know

53:57

that much about it but it's

53:59

basically giving journalists a chance to

54:01

appeal to their own audience to

54:04

what they think is interesting to

54:06

them because I'm truly here as

54:08

much as I do that sometimes

54:10

when you're working for media organizations

54:12

what they think are great ideas

54:14

isn't what always what you think

54:16

people really want to know about

54:19

and Substat gives you... I could

54:21

possibly comment, Charles. But you get

54:23

told so many no, people won't

54:25

go for it. The best journalists

54:27

do not become the media bosses,

54:29

right? The worst journalists become the

54:31

media bosses, with some honorable exceptions,

54:33

of course. It's true. There's a

54:36

lot of infuriating discussions of people

54:38

poo-pooing ideas that you think people

54:40

really want to know. People really

54:42

want, as I've seen you right

54:44

before, they want intelligent debate information,

54:46

they want... all the information they

54:48

don't want it dumbed down and

54:51

Substack gives you a chance to

54:53

sort of get over that hurdle

54:55

prove it because you can say

54:57

look people are interested they do

54:59

want to know this stuff and

55:01

I don't know because the mainstream's

55:03

got an awful lot of funding

55:06

so I don't think it's going

55:08

to bite into it overnight but

55:10

it's giving it run for its

55:12

money because people are now getting

55:14

proper informed news I think. And

55:16

briefly Charlotte just at the end

55:18

tell us about Charlotte's web another

55:21

aspect of your work. Yeah so

55:23

Charlotte's web started and Liam this

55:25

will sound absolutely bonkers but I

55:27

had an epiphany about Carol Vorderman.

55:29

and one day it occurred to

55:31

me that she might be part

55:33

of a network rather than all

55:35

her political activism solo and she

55:38

is actually part of something called

55:40

the movement forward and pulling at

55:42

this string sort of led me

55:44

down a lot of different rabbit

55:46

holes. I'm not relating these all

55:48

to Carol Vorderman but I started...

55:50

Who denies all wrongdoing of course

55:53

we should say? Yeah, I just

55:55

started noticing a lot of things

55:57

that seem like organic movements, political

55:59

movements, protests outside the pro- Palestine,

56:01

things like that, that are much

56:03

more... coordinated and intertangled than people

56:05

would believe. So I, with my

56:08

volunteer team, we've been mapping out

56:10

left-wing patronage networks a mixture of

56:12

how funds move between organisations and

56:14

how people know each other because

56:16

On the right, we've heard it

56:18

for years, who funds you, who

56:20

runs Tufton Street, we're all told

56:23

that we're plotting together, whereas actually,

56:25

there's not really been much attention

56:27

paid to the left and their

56:29

coordination, and they are much more

56:31

sophisticated in that respect. So I

56:33

thought it was about time that

56:35

there was a bit of nosing

56:37

around that, and that is really

56:40

the crux of Charlotte's web and

56:42

what I aim to do through

56:44

it. Well Charlotte Gill behind your

56:46

very polite demeanor I know you

56:48

are a terrier of a journalist

56:50

and it's great to have you

56:52

once again on Planet Normal. Thank

56:55

you so much Liam. So

56:57

there you go, Allison. Charlotte Gil,

56:59

interesting for the nature of her

57:01

work. I think Woke Waste is

57:04

really onto something. She's very modest

57:06

about its reach and influence, but

57:08

a lot of people are talking

57:10

about it. I do think she's

57:12

catching a wave. But I also

57:14

think she's interesting because there she

57:16

is. She's a journalist that's known

57:19

to us. She's been on Planet

57:21

Normal before, by the way, hasn't

57:23

she? And yet she's deciding. She's

57:25

had... job with big league newspapers,

57:27

broadcasters and so on and yet

57:29

she's deciding to go alone using

57:31

the kind of the frontiers of

57:34

the internet to try and make

57:36

her own living and she's succeeding.

57:38

I usually admire Charlotte and I

57:40

think this work is incredibly important.

57:42

I know listening to the interview

57:44

and I have been following her

57:46

on the sub stack and obviously

57:49

on on social media but I'm

57:51

sure planet normal distance will have

57:53

been... actually flabbergasted by some of

57:55

the examples she gives because we

57:57

don't understand as a country that

57:59

when we are giving public money

58:01

to charity, something that you think,

58:04

oh, this is an unarguable good,

58:06

that it's actually being funneled into

58:08

progressive, if not extreme, left-wing causes.

58:10

And I think that's one reason

58:12

why, you know, Charlotte illuminating this

58:14

kind of stuff. Now, don't get

58:16

me wrong, Liam. I'm a supporter

58:19

of the arts. I've got kids

58:21

in the arts, in music, and

58:23

I do think a civilized society

58:26

should be helping out sectors that

58:28

can't always run a big buck,

58:30

and that is part of what

58:33

we can do, and helping them

58:35

to become self-sufficient, and these things

58:37

are part of the sweetness in

58:40

life. They illuminate life, they elevate

58:42

people, but really some of this

58:44

art stuff is blue-haired nonsense, isn't

58:47

it? absolutely outrageous. I know from,

58:49

we'll talk about it, but you

58:51

know, my own run-ins with the

58:54

police, just hearing about the funding

58:56

of police headquarters of drag queen

58:58

hours. And this is the kind

59:01

of stuff that Charlotte Hill is

59:03

really drilling down into. And

59:05

I hope that Charlotte's work

59:08

will be the basis for

59:10

a future government tackling some

59:12

of the just crazy. expenditure,

59:14

which let's face it in

59:16

which insults the British people,

59:18

ordinary families, worried about the

59:21

energy bills, worried about the

59:23

cost of living, and then

59:25

you hear from Charlotte scattering

59:28

large S around amongst foreign

59:30

students to go and do

59:32

research into topics that nobody

59:35

saying would have any

59:37

interest in at all,

59:39

which are just nodding

59:41

towards fashionable identity politics.

59:43

I think Charlotte is onto something as

59:45

I say if listeners are confused about

59:48

where they can read her if you

59:50

just type Charlotte then G. I.

59:52

L. L. and then sub stack

59:54

into your search engine Google or

59:56

whatever others are available and then

59:58

you'll see it straight. away and

1:00:00

you can just click on and

1:00:02

read and you can subscribe if

1:00:04

you want. Look we will talk

1:00:06

another time Allison about the war

1:00:09

within the Labour Party about welfare

1:00:11

cuts that will rumble on for

1:00:13

many weeks. It is interesting though

1:00:15

isn't it that Labour now feels

1:00:17

so under pressure that it is...

1:00:19

going way beyond its manifesto and

1:00:21

looking to take away welfare rights

1:00:23

that actually were introduced under Peter

1:00:26

Lily and the Tories. And not

1:00:28

just any old Tory, Peter Lily

1:00:30

was a particularly, you know, dry

1:00:32

small state conservative, wasn't he? Very

1:00:34

much an ally of Nigel Lawson

1:00:36

back in the day. Was he,

1:00:38

I've got a little list? Indeed,

1:00:40

in the Maccado. The Maccado. Let's

1:00:42

hear, I mean it's kind of

1:00:45

in keeping with what Charlotte was

1:00:47

talking about, the state overextending and

1:00:49

drilling herb quest for information and

1:00:51

your quest for free speech and

1:00:53

so on. Just update planet normal

1:00:55

listeners briefly before we go to

1:00:57

emails on where you are with

1:00:59

your case, Allison. Yes, well listeners

1:01:02

may have been driving along and

1:01:04

blissful, sort of enjoying the sunshine

1:01:06

last week and heard the name

1:01:08

Alison Pearson Hatred case on radio

1:01:10

too. There was a report last

1:01:12

week by Chief Constable into the

1:01:14

conduct of my case by Essex

1:01:16

Police and this is going to

1:01:18

really shock you Liam, but the

1:01:21

report found Essex Police have done

1:01:23

nothing wrong. And in fact, in

1:01:25

fact, the conclusion... as an inquiry

1:01:27

into the police conducted by the

1:01:29

police. I'm sorry by police into

1:01:31

police, finds police completely in the

1:01:33

clear, absolutely astonishing. And as one

1:01:35

of my new mates in Essex

1:01:37

police said, you're never going to

1:01:40

find a chief constable, finding another

1:01:42

chief constable guilty darling. So... What

1:01:44

our dream Daily Star Sunday sport

1:01:46

headline have been, thinking back to

1:01:48

when the Daily Star, I think

1:01:50

Dominic Cummings told a select committee

1:01:52

that... Then Prime Minister Boris Johnson

1:01:54

accord then Health Secretary Matt Hancock

1:01:57

hopeless and the Daily Star came

1:01:59

up with hopeless... says hopeless bloke

1:02:01

is hopeless says hopeless bloke. That

1:02:03

is pretty much where we are.

1:02:05

Yeah my my very good legal

1:02:07

team I have to say there

1:02:09

was a quite lot of laughter

1:02:11

I mean obviously it's not very

1:02:13

nice to have this report for

1:02:16

me or being hearing yourself on

1:02:18

the BBC again but they said

1:02:20

it was self-serving an inconsistent report

1:02:22

designed by the police to exonerate.

1:02:24

themselves. Can I just read out

1:02:26

quickly? I am taking legal action

1:02:28

against Essex Police as planet normal

1:02:30

distance? No, and I just want

1:02:33

to make it clear. I'm not

1:02:35

taking legal action for me. I

1:02:37

don't think what happened to me

1:02:39

should be allowed to happen, right?

1:02:41

It shouldn't be allowed to happen

1:02:43

to anyone else. And the report

1:02:45

by the police said that this

1:02:47

was the main conclusion in was

1:02:49

that the cop who came to

1:02:52

my door had had been very

1:02:54

polite. on remembrance Sunday about a

1:02:56

tweet that you put up for

1:02:58

an hour a year before and

1:03:00

then deleted yes they said they

1:03:02

said they said that he'd been

1:03:04

very polite and his behavior was

1:03:06

exemplary well he could have brought

1:03:09

me a box of milk tray

1:03:11

he shouldn't have been there right

1:03:13

he shouldn't have been there so

1:03:15

this is a statement from my

1:03:17

solicitor Mark Lewis of patron law.

1:03:19

Mark says it's hardly surprising that

1:03:21

the police, having marked their own

1:03:23

homework, declared themselves to have done

1:03:25

nothing wrong. That is far from

1:03:28

the end of the matter. They

1:03:30

have released a heavily redacted document,

1:03:32

which is internally inconsistent. It suggests

1:03:34

a different story, but is marked

1:03:36

as confidential not to be shared.

1:03:38

Ironically, says Mark Lewis, if the

1:03:40

police are investigating a crime and

1:03:42

the accused offered such an explanation,

1:03:45

the police officer with conduct of

1:03:47

the case would give a... a

1:03:49

rise smile and await the outcome

1:03:51

in court. A further attempt at

1:03:53

doubling down by the police in

1:03:55

Allison's case will no doubt unravel

1:03:57

after proper disclosure as with many

1:03:59

cases. It is the cover-up that

1:04:01

eventually leads to resignations. The effect

1:04:04

of doubling down is usually reflected

1:04:06

in the increase in compensation payable.

1:04:08

So we are full steam ahead

1:04:10

now, Liam, with that case. And

1:04:12

I should say that previous freedom

1:04:14

of expression cases in every single

1:04:16

instance, the higher courts have found

1:04:18

in favour of a person's right

1:04:21

to free speech. And let's just...

1:04:23

finish by adding that patron law,

1:04:25

my legal team, this week won

1:04:27

substantial damages for the great author

1:04:29

and journalist Douglas Murray against the

1:04:31

Guardian. newspaper. So these these fights

1:04:33

against against people accusing people like

1:04:35

me and Douglas and you and

1:04:37

other people of misinformation, disinformation, posting

1:04:40

offensive things which are not offensive

1:04:42

to any normal person and even

1:04:44

if they were offensive. George Orwell

1:04:46

said freedom of speech means nothing

1:04:48

if it doesn't include the right.

1:04:50

to be offensive. And to finish

1:04:52

off for completeness, Essex police continue

1:04:54

to deny all wrongdoing. Now onto

1:04:56

our listener emails, your message is

1:04:59

sent to Planet Normal at telegraph.co.uk.uk.

1:05:01

Please keep them coming. We learn

1:05:03

so much from you don't we?

1:05:05

Alison, the citizens of Planet Normal.

1:05:07

We certainly do. By the way,

1:05:09

just to say that we get

1:05:11

fantastic emails, but if you've written

1:05:13

15 screenfuls, you're less likely to

1:05:16

be picked because although we absolutely

1:05:18

love them, brevity can sometimes be

1:05:20

the sole of wit. So this

1:05:22

is from Anna Lee's and she

1:05:24

is talking Liam about the reform

1:05:26

story. Dear Alison, Lynn, I read

1:05:28

your article, Allison, and started laughing

1:05:30

before just saying yes out loud.

1:05:32

You take the words out of

1:05:35

my mouth every week. so cross

1:05:37

with reform how dare they behave

1:05:39

so badly they promised us common

1:05:41

sense and unity they promised us

1:05:43

they will do all the things

1:05:45

the last government just haven't done

1:05:47

to work for the voters to

1:05:49

listen to us to get things

1:05:52

done people like me have argued

1:05:54

with our friends our families insisting

1:05:56

that this upstart party are going

1:05:58

to deliver that Nigel Farage is

1:06:00

going to deliver that he's not

1:06:02

just a racist disruptor but a

1:06:04

serious politician who generally wants to

1:06:06

make a difference Well, we have

1:06:08

egg on our faces now, don't

1:06:11

we? Farage criticised the Tories for

1:06:13

quotes fighting like rats and a

1:06:15

sack. Well, what have we here?

1:06:17

Five men who just can't put

1:06:19

their egos aside and get a

1:06:21

grip. Gosh, I'm cross, says Annalese.

1:06:23

I hope they sought it out

1:06:25

quickly for all our sakes. We

1:06:28

can't just be left with stoma

1:06:30

for a second term. My husband

1:06:32

and I have already decided. We

1:06:34

will leave our beloved England if

1:06:36

that happens. We just couldn't bear

1:06:38

to see the final nails going

1:06:40

into the coffin go into the

1:06:42

coffin. I loved your listener Ellie's

1:06:44

woke cloak idea and my daughter

1:06:47

now don'ts her woke cloak for

1:06:49

school too. It is left at

1:06:51

the door when my daughter gets

1:06:53

home and all the things she

1:06:55

has wanted to say all day

1:06:57

come poring out. She's 18 and

1:06:59

being silenced in the very place

1:07:01

her young brain should be expanded

1:07:04

and exposed to new ideas. She

1:07:06

should be debating and discussing everything

1:07:08

she hears. But no, she's being

1:07:10

stifled and silenced. She has a

1:07:12

couple of like-minded friends, thank goodness.

1:07:14

I did shed a tear for

1:07:16

Laura, whose email you read out.

1:07:18

Laura, the one that works in

1:07:20

the public sector, and also has

1:07:23

to wear a woke cloak. It

1:07:25

really cut through me to hear

1:07:27

that Laura has no safe way

1:07:29

to reveal her thoughts to other

1:07:31

possibly like-minded colleagues. It just reminded

1:07:33

me of the horror I felt

1:07:35

watching. a handmade's tail. So yes,

1:07:37

says Annalese. Let's get these reform

1:07:39

boys to put their differences aside

1:07:42

and put country before ego, so

1:07:44

I young can flourish. I think

1:07:46

they need you, Allison. You need

1:07:48

to grab Suella and go to

1:07:50

reform HQ and make... them see

1:07:52

sense. A few strong-minded brave women

1:07:54

with foresight intelligence determination could just

1:07:56

turn things around and give us

1:07:59

back our hope. I just can't

1:08:01

bear the idea that we're going

1:08:03

back to a choice of two

1:08:05

parties. I don't count the Libdans

1:08:07

at the general election. Lastly, and

1:08:09

this Liam is something I feel

1:08:11

strongly about too. If I ever

1:08:13

had a say about men like

1:08:15

that crossbow killer... Kyle Clifford or

1:08:18

Axel Radokabana, they would be dragged

1:08:20

by their hair into court. I

1:08:22

would gag them if necessary. Tie

1:08:24

them up, whatever it took. No

1:08:26

one like them should have any

1:08:28

rights at all, let alone whether

1:08:30

they want to face court or

1:08:32

not. The family may choose not

1:08:35

to have these monsters there, but

1:08:37

the least we can do is

1:08:39

to put that control in their

1:08:41

hands. Our judicial system sometimes makes

1:08:43

me sick, but that's another essay.

1:08:45

Thank you both, Alison and Liam.

1:08:47

As always, you seriously make a

1:08:49

huge difference to my sanity every

1:08:51

week. Annalese. Fabrous email there from

1:08:54

Annalese. I completely agree that the

1:08:56

fact that a criminal can choose

1:08:58

not to be in the court.

1:09:00

Just completely mad. This is from

1:09:02

Lily. I can't believe what's happening

1:09:04

to reform, she says. Rupert Lowe

1:09:06

strokes me as an outspoken but

1:09:08

honest man with a statement like

1:09:11

quality sorely missing from most of

1:09:13

our current proper MPs. Disappointment is

1:09:15

the least of what I feel

1:09:17

with regards to messes, pharage and

1:09:19

usef, what falls, or the letdown.

1:09:21

Andy, when I was playing football

1:09:23

at school, I once scored a

1:09:25

hat-trick of own goals. One from

1:09:27

outside my inbox. This is the

1:09:30

political equivalent. If Farage would become

1:09:32

party chairman and done the older

1:09:34

statesman thing and let Rupert be

1:09:36

leader, reform would have won the

1:09:38

next election. We are all now

1:09:40

in deep trouble. And a different

1:09:42

point of view here from Stephen,

1:09:44

and we really have had a

1:09:47

very mixed email postbag on this,

1:09:49

a virtual postbag, haven't we, Alison,

1:09:51

while agreeing with much of what

1:09:53

Rupert Lowe says, writes Stephen, the

1:09:55

last thing this country needs is

1:09:57

for him and Ben Habib to

1:09:59

form a breakaway group from... reform

1:10:01

that will merely serve to split

1:10:03

the anti-uniparty vote. Interesting stuff, and

1:10:05

I'm sure that debate will go on.

1:10:08

And just finally on this, this

1:10:10

is from Nigel Allison, though presumably

1:10:12

not that Nigel, which says Nigel,

1:10:14

my woke cloak slipped a bit,

1:10:16

reformer crying out for a Miriam

1:10:18

Kate, a to Hannah Davison, or

1:10:21

a Susan Evans, who of course

1:10:23

Susan Evans was a previous leader

1:10:25

of UKIP. ousted in her view

1:10:27

by Nigel Farage. Actually, says Nigel,

1:10:29

the party needs about a dozen

1:10:31

of them. We had a lot of reaction

1:10:34

to the piece that magnum opus

1:10:36

actually that Molly King, the brilliant, Molly

1:10:38

King, see of us for them and

1:10:40

I wrote as the Saturday essay in

1:10:43

the telegraph on the COVID day of

1:10:45

reflection. We'll put the link in that

1:10:47

to the show notes too. This is

1:10:49

from Mike, brilliant article by Molly

1:10:51

and Alison for the COVID day

1:10:54

of reflection. What is so sad

1:10:56

is that however much the appalling

1:10:58

behaviour of our self-serving politicians and

1:11:00

public servants is exposed, it seems

1:11:02

to have zero effect upon them.

1:11:05

They have developed herd immunity to

1:11:07

criticism and common sense. The real

1:11:09

reason for my email, says Mike,

1:11:11

is I have just learned of

1:11:13

the new Labour government's sentencing guidelines

1:11:16

that have been published. Under these

1:11:18

guidelines, criminals will be more likely

1:11:20

to avoid a prison sentence if

1:11:22

they're, quote, an ethnic minority,

1:11:24

neurodiverse, transgender or from a

1:11:26

faith minority community. This would

1:11:29

enshrine an anti-white and anti-Christian

1:11:31

bias in our criminal justice

1:11:33

system. Surely, this would make

1:11:35

stommer, harmer, guilty of racism.

1:11:37

Meanwhile, well done on taking

1:11:39

on the Essex police, Allison,

1:11:41

someone needs to do it.

1:11:43

and speak for the people

1:11:45

and for freedom of speech.

1:11:47

Good luck and thank you

1:11:49

to you and Liam for

1:11:51

all we do. Liam, can I

1:11:54

just say quickly that the quango

1:11:56

that's come up with these absolutely

1:11:58

appalling sentencing guidelines. just we talk about

1:12:01

two-tier justice system but this is

1:12:03

mind-boggling and Shabana Mahmoud who is

1:12:05

Labour's Justice Secretary one of one

1:12:07

of the Labour ministers that I

1:12:09

have got a lot more time

1:12:11

for I think she seems extreme

1:12:13

she's thoughtful she's intelligent she really

1:12:15

thinks things through she's come up

1:12:18

with some very good things and

1:12:20

she's basically was saying This cannot

1:12:22

stand, but now the sentencing

1:12:24

guidelines quangos come back and

1:12:26

said, you've got no right

1:12:28

to criticize us. This is

1:12:30

what we're doing. And I'm

1:12:32

very pleased to report that

1:12:34

Robert Genrich, Shadow Justice Secretary,

1:12:37

is now basically calling for

1:12:39

a law which will outlaw

1:12:41

the Quango and that's the

1:12:43

depth of the mess where

1:12:45

in the labor government which

1:12:47

basically knows it's going to

1:12:49

look dreadful having sentencing guidelines

1:12:51

where if you're white Christian

1:12:53

you know you won't be

1:12:55

considered for a short for

1:12:57

a shorter sentence which will

1:12:59

be given to someone from

1:13:01

another religious or ethnic denomination.

1:13:03

I can't think of any... greater

1:13:06

recipe for social discontent and

1:13:08

resentment, but laboured the government,

1:13:10

it's basically saying, oh, we're

1:13:13

not going to do anything.

1:13:15

So are we governed now

1:13:17

by quangos or by

1:13:20

democratically elected politicians? And

1:13:22

a couple of ones to finish

1:13:24

off, Allison. This is from Sarah. I

1:13:26

love the woke cloak idea. We all

1:13:28

do, Sarah. Working in university, I've been

1:13:30

wearing one for years, she says, but

1:13:32

unknowingly, now I know, and this is

1:13:34

from John and Cheshire, Allison and Liam,

1:13:36

I was told the origin of the

1:13:38

word mullod, if you don't understand, you

1:13:40

got to listen to last week's Planet

1:13:42

Normal, I was told, said John, that

1:13:44

the origin of the word mullod came

1:13:46

from mallets, as in hit over a

1:13:49

head by a mallet. And there was

1:13:51

I thinking it was that brilliant German

1:13:53

center forward. good miller who would muller

1:13:55

the ball into the net and on

1:13:57

that bombshell that's it for another week

1:13:59

from planet mores we leave our

1:14:01

sanctuary of sweet reason our flying

1:14:03

refuge of reason views email the

1:14:06

week copolic it's got to be

1:14:08

Annalese for her it was it

1:14:10

was it was it was it

1:14:12

was a fantastic how it's on

1:14:14

reform not their heads together and

1:14:16

everything thrown into the mix which

1:14:18

is what we like Annalese please send

1:14:20

us an email with mug winner in

1:14:23

the subject area and also please send

1:14:25

your full name and address and a

1:14:27

marvelous Planet Norman Monk will be winging

1:14:30

its way to you. As rare as

1:14:32

Rocking Horse Pooh and as we speed away

1:14:34

from Marvel Heaven, Planet Normal, the madness of

1:14:36

Planet has come back into view. Thanks as

1:14:39

ever! So our brilliant producers, Isabelle Bajard, Elampic,

1:14:41

Cass Ho and Louisa Wells. Stay safe and

1:14:43

in touch with us and with each other

1:14:45

until next week. It's goodbye from me. And

1:14:47

it's goodbye from him. Brought

1:14:57

to you by Hoolarius. Stand-up comedy

1:15:00

now on Hulu. Hey everybody. Hulu

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