0:00

If you haven't checked out Crooked's

0:02

new Assyria, Shadow Kingdom, God's Banker,

0:04

now's the time to do so.

0:06

It all begins with a tip

0:08

from an old friend. Journalists, Niccolo

0:10

Manoni, uncovers a hidden story about

0:12

Vatican Banker Roberto Calvie, one that

0:14

goes beyond the official 1982 suicide

0:16

ruling after he was found hanging

0:19

under a London bridge. But was

0:21

Calvie laundering mafia money through the

0:23

Vatican Bank? From there, things escalate

0:25

quickly. An Italian warehouse rate uncovers

0:27

a far-right society plotting a

0:29

coup, toppling Italy's government and

0:31

forcing Calvian to a corner.

0:33

Just as he turns to

0:35

the Vatican for protection, an

0:37

assassination attempt on the Pope

0:39

shakes the church to its core.

0:42

What happens next? Listen to Shadow

0:44

Kingdom God's Banker now, wherever you

0:46

get your podcast, or Benjaw episodes

0:49

now at cricket.com/friends, or on the

0:51

Shadow Kingdom Apple podcast feed. Hey,

0:53

this is Drey, and we're going to

0:55

possibly the people in this episode. It's me

0:57

Miles and Sharanda. We're just talking about what's

0:59

going on in the news from this past

1:02

week. We have a great discussion at the

1:04

beginning about this moment of protest or the

1:06

lack thereof or the presence of. I learned

1:08

a lot about what everybody's thinking. So this,

1:10

you know, I took a lot away from

1:12

this one. I took a lot from all

1:15

the episodes, but this one was particularly interesting

1:17

to me. I hope that it is interesting

1:19

to you too and let us know, DMS,

1:21

tweet us, send us an email. I'm really

1:23

interested in what you think about the

1:26

topics that we discussed at the

1:28

beginning of the episode specifically today, and

1:30

obviously the news. Here we go. Hey

1:34

y'all, we are pumped to

1:37

be back. I am actually

1:39

recording from Dreamville Festival in

1:42

Raleigh, North Carolina. 50,000 black

1:44

and brown people. It is

1:47

really beautiful. This is

1:49

Ray at D-R-A-Y on Twitter. Hi,

1:51

this is Miles E. Johnson on

1:54

Instagram. And this is Sharanda

1:56

Bassier and you can find me

1:58

on LinkedIn. What's the most common

2:00

mispronunciation of your last name? Is

2:02

it bossier? No, it's bozier actually

2:04

because there's a parish in Louisiana

2:06

that has the same spelling. And

2:08

so most people who are familiar

2:10

with that part of the state

2:12

will pronounce it in that same

2:14

way. Bozier, that would not have

2:16

lost the jeopardy on that. And

2:18

that would have been, don't vote

2:20

a friend. That was the question.

2:22

I'd have lost that one. Well,

2:24

this was another while weekend American

2:26

politics, insert tariffs here. Seems like

2:29

everything's gonna cost a lot more

2:31

soon, but it seems like the

2:33

mega people still are, you know,

2:35

riding strong with Trump, which I

2:37

am just, I am floored about.

2:39

But Miles, I'm really interested. One

2:41

of the things that you teed

2:43

up for us to. discuss is

2:45

whether there was a resistance at

2:47

all before. And I've been interested

2:49

in this because people have asked

2:51

me, like, Drey, are you protesting?

2:53

Are you organizing a protest around

2:55

Trump? What happened to the protesters?

2:57

And for those of you listening,

2:59

we earnestly do not discuss anything

3:01

that we're going to talk about

3:03

on the pie before we record.

3:05

So I never really know what,

3:07

you know, everybody's going to say.

3:09

But I was really interested in

3:11

this conversation about what happened to...

3:13

resistance 2.0 as they called it

3:15

with Trump, what happened to all

3:17

the protesters? What is, help us

3:20

think through it. So I was

3:22

on YouTube, which is my personal

3:24

library of Congress, and I found

3:26

a Youtuber, still journalist, but former

3:28

kind of like legacy media journalist

3:30

named Taylor Lorenz, and she goes

3:32

through really fantastically, the... the deterioration

3:34

of the resistance and also does

3:36

like this autopsy of the resistance

3:38

that happened during 2016 and it

3:40

once she does this autopsy there

3:42

is so many people who were

3:44

part of that resistance who were

3:46

before conservatives. There are so many

3:48

people who turned conservatives. So basically

3:50

she shows that a lot of

3:52

the people who were leading those

3:54

protests, leading those ideas, were already

3:56

in the Republican conservative sphere and

3:58

went on and went over to

4:00

the Democratic. digital space in order

4:02

to make profit. And when we

4:04

see such a deflation that can

4:06

happen, I would say even maybe

4:08

before this week, like when we're

4:10

talking about after the inauguration, that

4:13

can also be seen wise that

4:15

so many people were a part

4:17

of this quote unquote resistance in

4:19

order to further their own fame

4:21

and start them. I want to

4:23

read a little bit of what

4:25

I sent during the text because

4:27

I feel like it was synthesized

4:29

right. Just the synthesization around the

4:31

video it says the Biden administration

4:33

coasted on vibes and symbolism Student

4:35

loan payments resumed police budgets balloon

4:37

Gaza burned in climate promises evaporated

4:39

Real movement energy like the 2020

4:41

uprisings was pacified not empowered the

4:43

same resistance stars who once cried

4:45

fascism now downplay Biden's failures or

4:47

pivot to the right-wing platforms to

4:49

algorithm stopped rewarding outrage so they

4:51

moved on so outside of There

4:53

being so many bad actors inside

4:55

of this resistance movement She really

4:57

articulated something that I didn't think

4:59

about because I think I think

5:01

of Biden in fragments But there

5:04

were a lot of things that

5:06

people that that Biden failed at

5:08

when it comes to more Left

5:10

and Progressive policy he he he

5:12

did manage to hurt enough feelings

5:14

politically to, for some people to

5:16

look at his presidency and say,

5:18

that was not for me, that

5:20

was not a good presidency for

5:22

me, who are on the left

5:24

or who are progressive, and of

5:26

course people who are radical, far

5:28

leftist, whatever is the name for,

5:30

for people who have leftist politics

5:32

now. There were some failures, and

5:34

I think sometimes when we're trying.

5:36

when some people were trying to

5:38

defend Biden, they would ignore those

5:40

parts and ignore those pieces, and

5:42

then it just creates a distrust

5:44

of the person you're talking to,

5:46

then an illumination on Biden's actual

5:48

legacy. It just turns into, well,

5:50

you blind to me too, and

5:52

saying that he did this and

5:54

this and this and made my

5:57

life better, and I'm telling you.

5:59

This was important to me, this

6:01

was important to me, and this

6:03

was important to me. So anywho,

6:05

she lays that out, it made

6:07

it really interesting, and it made

6:09

me a lot more hopeful because

6:11

when you know who made something,

6:13

you're not as mad the cake

6:15

and good. So sometimes you could

6:17

just get a better baker in

6:19

the kitchen, a better recipes to

6:21

happen, then thinking this was 100%

6:23

of our efforts in ended up

6:25

with a second Trump presidency. I

6:27

mean, I, what I find interesting

6:29

about that, right, is my first

6:31

thought was less about people who

6:33

were already leaning conservative and then

6:35

moving sort of into progressive or

6:37

democratic spaces as a way of

6:39

like capturing the Zite guys and

6:41

like leveraging that for like celebrity

6:43

access and money. For me, my

6:45

first starting point was people who

6:47

I knew. you know prior to

6:50

2016 who were more moderate and

6:52

I had never really seen speak

6:54

out on things, right? And then

6:56

sort of their whole persona professionally

6:58

and publicly became being on the

7:00

vanguard of the resistance, right? And

7:02

like how they were able to,

7:04

like I'm always thinking about people

7:06

who were in my sphere of

7:08

influence, right? And how they were

7:10

able to leverage that for speaking

7:12

gigs, for you know, for book

7:14

deals, etc. And I just wonder

7:16

what it means to think about

7:18

having lost an opportunity to really

7:20

have capitalized on what was starting

7:22

to feel like a little bit

7:24

of radicalization. of people and then

7:26

having had that like commodified and

7:28

having had that been like the

7:30

basis of some people's careers right

7:32

and I think we're seeing the

7:34

fallout of that in the second

7:36

Trump term right where people are

7:38

losing their spots, losing their speaking

7:41

gigs, losing their jobs. And I

7:43

just wonder what it means for

7:45

how we think about the opportunity

7:47

for a new kind of resistance

7:49

in this moment, right? One that

7:51

is not so married to existing

7:53

power structures and existing ways of

7:55

like communicating and being in community

7:57

with each other. Does that make

7:59

sense? It does I have you

8:01

have a push I'm interested because

8:03

I read I read Taylor's sub

8:05

stack about this and because Miles

8:07

put it in and You know

8:09

actually like Taylor this is let

8:11

me start by saying like you

8:13

know I don't if you don't

8:15

know her work before the she

8:17

was hounding the tech pros she

8:19

was one reporting on them they

8:21

have hated her for a long

8:23

time because she was just a

8:25

true teller she's at the post

8:27

she's done a lot of things

8:29

and I like Taylor and I

8:31

was I was struck at how

8:34

I'm not sure I think her

8:36

analysis applies to black organizers. I

8:38

like didn't quite read that in

8:40

there. I'm interested in, you know,

8:42

and let me tell you what

8:44

I what I did not see.

8:46

I did not see sort of

8:48

an honest reckoning with the exhaustion

8:50

of those people who like me,

8:52

we were in the street in

8:54

14, we were in the street

8:56

in 20, we were in the

8:58

street Trump, did it, so like

9:00

I know people who this go

9:02

around are just like, like, I

9:04

literally do not have the fight

9:06

the fight. I got to take

9:08

a break because I have done

9:10

the big lift two, three times

9:12

already. So like, I'm interested in

9:14

that. And if you think, I

9:16

don't know, if you think the

9:18

absence of that in Taylor's pieces,

9:20

okay, or I don't know, I

9:22

felt like a real absence. And,

9:25

you know, I was talking to

9:27

somebody else about, before Miles, you

9:29

put this in, her writing, it

9:31

crystallized it. is way higher today

9:33

than it was ever. So I

9:35

think about even my, you know,

9:37

I'm basically about this police officer.

9:39

So that is like a real

9:41

nightmare for me personally. But I

9:43

think about like, you know, the

9:45

Trump people are disappearing people on

9:47

the sidewalk, going to class. And

9:49

like it is that the cost

9:51

feels very different than it felt.

9:53

when the women's march and when

9:55

I was in the street and

9:57

did it and I didn't see

9:59

those in her in our piece.

10:01

So that's not to discount her

10:03

piece. I actually think her piece

10:05

feels very true to me for

10:07

a lot of the white progressive

10:09

people that I saw make these

10:11

Twitter accounts and make videos and

10:13

do all these speaking engagements. I

10:15

don't know if I thought it

10:18

was true of the people of

10:20

color organizers that I know. I

10:22

think that's such a good point,

10:24

Deray. I think it is missing

10:26

a race analysis. So many of

10:28

my favorite YouTubeers who are not

10:30

black are missing race analysis, which

10:32

is how some I always get

10:34

on here and say, can anybody

10:36

who has any type of resource

10:38

make YouTube platforms or help somebody

10:40

make a YouTube platform and fund

10:42

those things because that is the

10:44

whole that is missing in the

10:46

internet in this digital space that's

10:48

growing. So I totally agree with

10:50

you there. The only thing that

10:52

I would, I don't even know

10:54

if it's a push, but just

10:56

a nuance is. I totally agree

10:58

with you about the organizer piece,

11:00

but even me and you spoke

11:02

about other organizers who get who's

11:04

sad and mansions. And it espoused

11:06

some new, no I'm just saying,

11:09

am I lying? They espoused some

11:11

new conservative elitist views when they

11:13

got the, when they, when they,

11:15

when they, when they got the

11:17

chance, there were so many people

11:19

who saw their, they went from

11:21

the streets to the, to, to,

11:23

to, to Oprah that was the

11:25

trajectory of so many black folks.

11:27

So just because, so yes, I

11:29

think, to your point, there is

11:31

a nuance, there is an exhaustion

11:33

that's happening around organizers and a

11:35

lot of people who pushed. and

11:37

don't in and in and in

11:39

our exhausted today, but I think

11:41

that the black community still has

11:43

to be accountable. for the bad

11:45

actors inside of our community who

11:47

utilized the moment of resistance to

11:49

further their career. I think that's

11:51

right and I think one of

11:53

the reasons why people are so

11:55

tired is because instead of like

11:57

building a bench or instead of

11:59

saying like many of us can

12:02

be the face of the resistance

12:04

people try to hold space and

12:06

block other people out because there

12:08

seem to be a direct financial

12:10

benefit to that right like if

12:12

you become the go-to then you

12:14

are the person who gets all

12:16

the speaking gigs all the book

12:18

deals etc right but then that

12:20

means that when it's time for

12:22

you to tap out and like

12:24

look this is work that you

12:26

have to tap in and how

12:28

to tap out of all the

12:30

time there's no one to take

12:32

your spot Right? Because you've essentialized

12:34

yourself. And I think this is

12:36

like part of like when what

12:38

happens when we don't interrogate how

12:40

we are replicating the very same

12:42

power structures and dynamics that we

12:44

say that we are trying to

12:46

resist even within our own movement.

12:48

Right. There is no second wave

12:50

of activists to come up and

12:52

be the face of the work

12:55

because we didn't invest in them.

12:57

You know what I mean? I

12:59

can take that. Oh, the hope

13:01

is in. So if, I'm just

13:03

using a normal number, so if

13:05

100 people tried their best and

13:07

were in those books and pushed

13:09

and really tried to make something

13:11

happen and it didn't work, that

13:13

can kind of birth a hopelessness.

13:15

If 50 of those 100 people

13:17

were really like... I just want

13:19

to have a talk, I just

13:21

want to have a talk, I

13:23

just really like the panel fee,

13:25

I just really try, I'm trying

13:27

to get my career, it gives

13:29

me hope because we actually haven't

13:31

seen what 100% of passion and

13:33

commitment can do, because we didn't

13:35

put you into interest. So that's

13:37

to me where hope is, where

13:39

it's like we still have a

13:41

chance to reimagine and restart, so.

13:43

Now you know, I'm a spark

13:46

of light. Yeah, I'm just saying

13:48

I'm here for it because I

13:50

was here like where was the

13:52

hope in this one? Yeah. Serana,

13:54

does this not, when you read

13:56

this, do you, what's your takeaway?

13:58

Like what's your like, we can

14:00

do, is it the same one

14:02

that Miles had? Is it? Yeah,

14:04

I think. I'm always also trying

14:06

to look for the silver lining.

14:08

And I think as someone who,

14:10

you know, also has been in

14:12

the streets and doesn't necessarily have

14:14

a public profile around that, I

14:16

think there's an opportunity for us

14:18

to talk about how we engage

14:20

more people. I, you all know,

14:22

Miriam Kava, right, and like in

14:24

her work. And I think one

14:26

of, part of like when I

14:28

read her, what I always think

14:30

about is her push to invite

14:32

people to the party over and

14:34

over again and to welcome them

14:36

with that same enthusiasm, no matter

14:39

what point they accept the invite,

14:41

right? You, a lot of us

14:43

tend to be like, girl, you

14:45

late, we've been here already, etc,

14:47

etc, etc. etc. etc. And I

14:49

think when I listen to this,

14:51

I'm thinking to this, I'm thinking

14:53

about all of the people, I'm

14:55

thinking about all of the people,

14:57

we've been trying to invite to

14:59

invite to invite to invite, and

15:01

who I think now there's an

15:03

opportunity for us to invite, and

15:05

for us to have a different

15:07

conversation about what participating in the

15:09

resistance can look like. That's not

15:11

about building a personal brand, but

15:13

that is actually about shifting power

15:15

and shifting how we are in

15:17

relationship and community with one another.

15:19

So I'm excited about who yet

15:21

hasn't been engaged. Oh, I'm just

15:23

interested in how does this analysis

15:25

reckon with the hands-off protests that

15:27

just happened? Because, you know, there's

15:30

a reading of Taylor's piece that

15:32

makes it seem like this level

15:34

coordination and protests all across the

15:36

country happening simultaneously would potentially not

15:38

happen again. That was how I

15:40

read her piece. It was sort

15:42

of like, you know, those people,

15:44

that wave died out. We don't

15:46

know what those people went. The

15:48

energy's gone. And then just this

15:50

weekend, we saw hands off protests

15:52

all across country in Baltimore. Like,

15:54

you know, I saw them in

15:56

places where I'm like, oh, I

15:58

didn't, I didn't know. And it's.

16:00

not a lot of black people

16:02

in them. And I'm like, whoa,

16:04

this is, you know, people are

16:06

seemingly, they are back in the

16:08

street. So how do you reckon

16:10

her analysis with that? The first

16:12

thing was, to me, the lack

16:14

of blackness was my analysis. That

16:16

I'm always going to see the,

16:18

when you see the absence of

16:20

black people in protests and you

16:23

know, black people have invented the

16:25

resistance in the protest in the.

16:27

you know, America was a part-tied

16:29

country. So black people invented that.

16:31

So me seeing no black people

16:33

there feels interesting and odd to

16:35

me. And also, I think, you

16:37

know, if we're gonna have a

16:39

vibes election, I think we need

16:41

to keep that on. I think

16:43

that if we're gonna really try

16:45

to quantify and talk about vibes,

16:47

we need to continue it. There

16:49

is a different temperature today. I

16:51

think there is a different. Feeling

16:53

of when you left. I remember

16:55

people who went to go to

16:57

the to the Women's March, for

16:59

instance, and you would think they

17:01

were going to the carnival. You

17:03

would think, you know, it was,

17:05

it was, it was, it was,

17:07

it was, it was, it was

17:09

Marty Graw, it was, put the,

17:11

it was brunch in protest, you

17:14

know, that, that's freak Nick, put

17:16

him pussies on the head, that's,

17:18

that's crazy. So if there was

17:20

a celebratory. a celebratory nature of

17:22

it and a joyfulness in it

17:24

and also an excitement and curiosity

17:26

about it because I think it

17:28

just hadn't happened and now it

17:30

feels like if we got to

17:32

if we if you forcing us

17:34

I'm really mad the signs ain't

17:36

cute as cute the the people

17:38

aren't as frisky there's not as

17:40

many outfits there's not as many

17:42

viral moments like all those things

17:44

kind of tell me the temperature

17:46

of it and then you know

17:48

The last thing is I am

17:50

in the Midwest. We go to

17:52

Indiana, we're in Kentucky, we're in

17:54

Ohio, we're in those places, and

17:56

I just don't think people understand

17:58

how the black communities in the

18:00

Midwest are rotting. and how there

18:02

is so much lack of excitement

18:04

in so many of these black

18:07

communities. And when I speak to

18:09

people about politics and what's going

18:11

on, I have never heard black

18:13

people talk about stuff like this

18:15

before, or talk about the political

18:17

state of the country like this

18:19

before. I never have. Black people.

18:21

poor rich middle class are usually

18:23

always the people who can tell

18:25

you about some democratic if they

18:27

know they know they know the

18:29

right thing they know about being

18:31

democratic or they're on some you

18:33

know severely hotel shit but i've

18:35

never seen black people like really

18:37

kind of be like i'm thrown

18:39

in the towel these white people

18:41

crazy i'm just gonna buy my

18:43

business that's that's new to me

18:45

I think the tone and the

18:47

tenor of the media coverage has

18:49

also shifted right to your point

18:51

about like what has gone viral

18:53

and what what has not like

18:55

I have not seen a ton

18:57

of and I'm off social so

19:00

I recognize that right but I

19:02

even in like network news coverage,

19:04

right? It's been mostly like really

19:06

short articles with really short clips

19:08

like this happened this week, you

19:10

know, versus like I think some

19:12

of the stuff we were seeing

19:14

in 2014, 2015, and then obviously

19:16

again in 2016 and then in

19:18

2020, there was this sense that

19:20

the the media was telling a

19:22

story about a growing and rising

19:24

wave of resistance, but the framing

19:26

now does not feel like one.

19:28

that is helping people understand just

19:30

how broad spread, so how broad

19:32

and like how widespread the support

19:34

for resisting Trump and his policies

19:36

in this moment are, right? It

19:38

feels like they're like, well, you

19:40

know, this doesn't measure up to

19:42

the exciting and fun stuff, quote

19:44

unquote, that we did, you know,

19:46

five, ten years ago. And I

19:48

think watching the framing of it

19:51

has been truly most interesting to

19:53

me. And there's no focus tragedy.

19:55

There's like, you know what I

19:57

mean? There's no focus tragedy and

19:59

unfortunately I do think that America

20:01

and this just generation and just

20:03

maybe that's just human nature in

20:05

general. There needs to be something

20:07

that has happened, not a threat

20:09

of something gonna happen, that galvanizes

20:11

people off. The layoffs on tragedy?

20:13

Like, what do you mean? Listen,

20:15

we're post 1980s black people. Not

20:17

this list. No, because I want

20:19

us to sit and what, because

20:21

sometimes I think that black people,

20:23

we don't think about the version

20:25

of black that we are. We

20:27

are post 1980s black people. You

20:29

can't really threaten. brokenness and poverty

20:31

and if you if you wear

20:33

the wrong thing we're gonna we're

20:35

gonna we're gonna knock you down

20:37

And we're in 2025 and we

20:39

as a people survive 1998 to

20:41

1999. That's just not a thing

20:44

anymore. And unfortunately it does take

20:46

that moment in New Orleans. And

20:48

at that moment, for instance, that

20:50

moment in New Orleans, for instance,

20:52

that moment in New Orleans was

20:54

more thoroughly connected to Trump's incompetence.

20:56

If that happened while Trump was

20:58

in office and his incompetence, that

21:00

would be something that was a

21:02

lightning strike. We need a villain.

21:04

We need a hero. bad thing,

21:06

we need a safer. So even

21:08

the airplanes is too disconnected from

21:10

a singular person being villain and

21:12

trying to connect that to one

21:14

singular person, it's too much for

21:16

the, it seems to be too

21:18

much for the average American person's

21:20

imagination. So it needs to be

21:22

very direct, Osama bin Laden, put

21:24

the planes through the building. That's

21:26

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21:28

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details at turbotax.com. What

25:19

was your question for me? So I

25:22

also wanted to like ask you that

25:24

same question because I know one thing

25:26

that stunned me when I got to

25:28

New York City and I will never

25:30

claim to be the nicest person or

25:32

the most agreeable person. There's not even

25:34

on my set of goals, but I

25:36

was stunned at the competition. around being

25:38

black and wanting black empowerment inside of

25:40

media or representation or want to be

25:43

able to talk about the countless things

25:45

that people want to talk about during

25:47

2016. I was stunned at the internal

25:49

fighting and bickering that was happening inside

25:51

of the spaces that I found myself

25:53

in, which was usually around other writers

25:55

and other media personalities and other like

25:57

inspiring people in that space. And I

25:59

do want to know, do you think

26:01

that maybe the things that you experience

26:04

interpersonally or digitally is worth examining as

26:06

a reason how come we are seeing

26:08

such a disempowered, black power movement today?

26:10

Do you think that connection is worth

26:12

anything? Yeah, I think that's right. You're

26:14

right. That like, and Sharana, you've been

26:16

around for this and Miles, you've been

26:18

around and, you know, you've gotten the

26:20

calls from me being like, this was

26:23

crazy. The competition inside, like if I

26:25

ever leave activism, it will not be

26:27

because I'm tired of the police. It'll

26:29

be because I'm tired of fighting other

26:31

black people around stuff that like I

26:33

shouldn't be fighting activists about, you know.

26:35

Yeah, I don't. I don't know. I'm

26:37

sensitive to you. One of the critiques

26:39

of me is that I was like

26:41

the first celebrity activist of this moment,

26:44

like the activist who became sort of

26:46

celebrity. So people sort of attribute that,

26:48

like I started it. And I'm like,

26:50

no, I don't know if I started

26:52

it. But yeah, I don't know what

26:54

to say that's kind. I think I've

26:56

been shocked at the lack of results.

26:58

I think I'm like, hmm. I remember

27:00

you in 2020 being loud and raising

27:02

a ton of money and I don't

27:05

really know what happened. Miles, I did

27:07

an interview not too long ago with

27:09

a friend and one thing he asked

27:11

me, he was like, are you still

27:13

an activist? I was like, I'm going

27:15

to get, yeah, I've never stopped. And

27:17

he was like, well, I'm going to

27:19

get, yeah, I've never stopped. And he

27:21

was like, well, I thought you'd have

27:23

a TV show by now. I thought

27:26

that you'd leverage that you was. He

27:28

said, I thought you'd leverage that to

27:30

have like a show or like a

27:32

network or did it all. And I

27:34

was like, you know, the commitment I

27:36

made in 2014 is a commitment that

27:38

I have still made 10 years later.

27:40

And he's like, wow, I'm like really

27:42

shocked you. still do this. It was

27:45

the first time somebody had just so

27:47

plainly said to me, like, I like

27:49

you and I just assumed that this

27:51

was like a stepping stone to something

27:53

better. And I'm like, the stepping stone

27:55

is to like change the system. I'm

27:57

trying to do all this stuff so

27:59

I can like change that that is

28:01

the goal. It is not to like

28:03

have a TV show. And I was

28:06

like, well, that is really, that is

28:08

interesting. But people, you're right. That is

28:10

the trajectory. That is the trajectory that

28:12

is the trajectory. That is the trajectory.

28:14

That is the trajectory. That is the

28:16

trajectory. That is the trajectory. That is

28:18

the trajectory. That is the trajectory. That

28:20

is the trajectory. That is the trajectory.

28:22

That is the trajectory. That is the

28:24

trajectory. People are really, I'm shocked at

28:27

how little people ask for results in

28:29

the activist space. Like just caring is

28:31

enough. Like, or just showing them to

28:33

the thing becomes enough. And I'm like,

28:35

you should ask them where that $20

28:37

million, like, we should have to tell

28:39

you, like, what I spent the money

28:41

on to make results. I don't know,

28:43

that feels like a fair, a fair

28:45

bargain to me, a fair deal, but

28:48

that's not what happens. Would you ever

28:50

say anything unkind? Publicly,

28:52

oh I say a lot of unkind

28:54

things, so I don't, would I say

28:56

them publicly? You know, Miles, this is

28:58

the honesty, so push me, is that

29:01

one of the reasons why I don't

29:03

talk about those people or those things

29:05

is that mainstream media doesn't write about

29:07

them, and a lot of people sort

29:09

of ignore them, the moment I say

29:11

something, the story becomes deray and so-and-so

29:14

is fighting. Like they the media sort

29:16

of it becomes this thing so I

29:18

like legitimize there I'm dealing with something

29:20

right now We're trying to do this

29:22

thing and this big group of activists

29:24

have come out about this policy thing

29:26

that There's no they are only against

29:29

it because they don't like me The

29:31

moment that I like start talking about

29:33

it publicly they get a bigger profile

29:35

to fight me whereas if I just

29:37

ignore them I can actually get the

29:39

thing done It won't be a thing

29:42

and I'll just move on to the

29:44

next thing and so I do feel

29:46

stuck in that in that way Yeah,

29:48

I do think sometimes I see even

29:50

with just black people of all types

29:52

of faith. I think it's just something

29:55

in us that that Christian nice stuff

29:57

sometimes really is our own venom when

29:59

I see it. And I think that

30:01

often we are afraid of chaos, we're

30:03

afraid. of kind of being the person

30:05

to say, oh, I'm going to go

30:08

into the darkness. I'm not going to,

30:10

we're, so when somebody else is being

30:12

a chaos agent, we link arms, we're

30:14

harmonious, we shall overcome. When somebody hits

30:16

us, we turn the other cheek. But

30:18

I think that sometimes it's like, no,

30:21

we got to, we see the chaos

30:23

and sometimes we got to press our

30:25

own button and yeah, the publicity might

30:27

look like this or the reaction might

30:29

look like this. But now we have

30:31

people talking about black liberation. black organizations

30:34

and black policies and look in actually

30:36

looking at it because I think some

30:38

sometimes so many people are afraid to

30:40

say something about the person who about

30:42

life skin Malcolm X, swindling money or

30:44

somebody having mimosas and brunch and calling

30:47

it and calling it a black power

30:49

like to me those things or somebody

30:51

having 20 million dollars and having nothing

30:53

to show for it. We need to

30:55

talk about that. And if we don't

30:57

talk about that, we're letting it so

31:00

Gen Alpha, Gen Z, and those generations

31:02

can repeat those same sins, because we're

31:04

not, we're afraid to talk about it.

31:06

To me, there's something so connective about

31:08

us not wanting to talk about that,

31:10

and it's not wanting to talk about

31:13

that, and so many black people dealing

31:15

with poverty who don't want to talk

31:17

about the father who gambled it, who

31:19

don't want to talk about the Tyler

31:21

Perry issues happening, have to be killed

31:23

or we're going to be killed as

31:25

a black community. That's my opinion. I

31:28

don't think we have a public framework

31:30

for having conversations like this that are

31:32

not about the person, right, but that

31:34

are focused on the work and the

31:36

outcome and the impact, right? So I

31:38

do think that you know, absent that

31:41

you end up in a situation where

31:43

you have opened the door to, I

31:45

think in this particular instance, like black

31:47

people, black queer people, black women, black

31:49

queer women, right? Like becoming the public

31:51

targets for what I think is often

31:54

valid critique, but I don't think many

31:56

people have a muscle around critiquing the

31:58

work and not the person, right? And

32:00

I think a lot of us are

32:02

rel- to, even if we disagree with

32:04

what they have done, how they have

32:07

done it, to be the validators for

32:09

opening the door to things that are

32:11

gonna be personally interested to people. Do

32:13

you know what I mean? Like, none

32:15

of us want to be like, I'm

32:17

the person who said it was okay

32:20

to, or I was, I'm the person

32:22

whose public critique was levied or leveraged

32:24

in a way that allowed for other

32:26

people to come and shoot personal attacks

32:28

of this person. Right. Like I do

32:30

think that part of what is happening

32:33

is happening is. is the downside of

32:35

us trying to adopt an ethic of

32:37

care in the work, which is I

32:39

don't want to put this person on

32:41

the line, you know, for, yeah, being

32:43

personally critiqued, etc. because people have experienced

32:46

real personal harm as part of their

32:48

work, right? Even if we have questions

32:50

about the impact, yeah, I think it's

32:52

tough. I think that's right, Your Honor,

32:54

about the lack of framework, because it's

32:56

so, so you say one thing. about

32:59

a scammer and then it becomes derasive,

33:01

the black leaders are scammers. And you're

33:03

like, why? That's not what I said.

33:05

That person was, Miles is not convinced.

33:07

This might just be me seeing how

33:09

Gen Z, Gen Alpha, and then also

33:12

this YouTube as an apparatus, like if

33:14

you look at just how things get

33:16

seen, so it's. So and so on,

33:18

so and so destroys so and so

33:20

other person and then you see Kansas

33:22

Owen going after Ben Shapiro and then

33:25

then fall out and her get fired

33:27

and they all do this stuff and

33:29

then what you what you kind of

33:31

see is that everybody rolled in the

33:33

dirt but you know what you did

33:35

in the dirt you planted seeds and

33:37

now you see Kansas Owens with the

33:40

biggest YouTube platform and you also see

33:42

Ben Shapiro these biggest platform so I'm

33:44

not saying we should be as soulless

33:46

as Republicans where it's like listen if

33:48

you want to be in the fame

33:50

game you want to be in the

33:53

attention game you have to learn how

33:55

to utilize all attention to and leverage

33:57

all attention to your to to to

33:59

your goals like that is a part

34:01

of being in the attention economy. I

34:03

understand it because I'm that way too

34:06

as far as being extremely kind and

34:08

precious and sentimental around black people but

34:10

when we look at the digital sphere

34:12

it's a cold while west place and

34:14

if you want to play in this

34:16

space and you want to play with

34:19

the money I'm gonna play with you

34:21

and that's how people are winning people

34:23

are kind of winning and I'm through

34:25

communications through kind of Don't

36:27

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38:54

let's go to the news. I'm

38:56

interested in Sharanda. I don't know

38:58

what angle you're going to take

39:00

on this. So I am very

39:02

interested in the angle for your

39:04

news. So let's go. Yeah. So

39:06

my news is about a series

39:08

of articles that the New York

39:10

Times is publishing that they are

39:12

calling quote unquote the embryo question.

39:14

And this specific installment is about

39:16

polygenic trait testing. And so, you

39:18

know, for those of you who

39:20

have any sort of passing even

39:22

familiarity with IVF or with, you

39:24

know, the use of donors, etc.

39:26

to conceive children, you know that

39:28

there's always sort of a baseline

39:30

of like you know genetic screening

39:32

and then also you know like

39:34

if you're choosing for instance a

39:36

sperm donor right like you get

39:38

a profile you get some basic

39:40

details about them and then if

39:42

they carry a gene for you

39:44

know some sort of quote-unquote genetic

39:46

abnormality that if you know you

39:48

also carry that genetic trait they

39:50

might you know you might have

39:52

a child who also has that

39:55

quote-unquote genetic abnormality you often get

39:57

that information disclosed to you. But

39:59

what is happening now is because

40:01

we are able to just get

40:03

more information about embryos and again

40:05

we're able to do what we

40:07

call like polygenic trait testing, which

40:09

means now we can screen for

40:11

things like height and skin color

40:13

and eye color, right? People who

40:15

are taking pathways to parenthood that

40:17

allow them to sort of test

40:19

their embryos are now starting to

40:21

select for their preferences along those

40:23

criteria. And the reason I wanted

40:25

to bring it to the pot

40:27

is I think what we are

40:29

experiencing in this moment overall is

40:31

a sort of new wave of

40:33

a eugenics movement. And I think

40:35

when people are now in a

40:37

place where they can select. an

40:39

embryo for what they think will

40:41

be a quote unquote ideal height

40:43

or what they think will be

40:45

a quote unquote ideal eye color.

40:47

It raises for me real ethical

40:49

questions. And I think, you know,

40:51

there's a class element here too.

40:53

So a lot of the people

40:55

that they profile and they talk

40:57

about are people who work in

40:59

tech who have high paying jobs

41:01

for whom a lot of this

41:03

testing is covered by their employer,

41:05

right? And so I think if

41:07

you have the ability, you know,

41:09

because you have class privilege to

41:11

then select the quote unquote most

41:13

desirable child you can create, right,

41:15

what that often means for what

41:17

the sort of new physical and

41:19

racial traits that will then be

41:21

associated with lower socioeconomic status in

41:23

class in this country. And so.

41:25

For me, this is just really

41:28

emblematic of where we are going

41:30

and things that we had decided

41:32

I thought that were beyond the

41:34

pale for a long time, right?

41:36

That we were trying to create

41:38

this kind of more inclusive society

41:40

that was like, regardless of how

41:42

tall you are or regardless of

41:44

how dark skin you are, regardless

41:46

of you have autism, it is

41:48

our job. to figure out how

41:50

to create a world where you

41:52

can thrive, right? And this feels

41:54

like a move in that in

41:56

an opposite direction. And I think

41:58

when you have people like Elon

42:00

Musk, because he's talked about in

42:02

this article, right, who are championing

42:04

this work, it's just I don't

42:06

know how people are not seeing

42:08

the connections to this sort of

42:10

current wave of a eugenics movement.

42:12

And so that's why I wanted

42:14

to bring it to the pot

42:16

is, you know, I'm in my

42:18

early 40 and have lots of

42:20

friends. who were choosing this pathway

42:22

to parenthood, and so these questions

42:24

do come up, right? Like, what

42:26

do I do? How do I

42:28

think about this? If I'm a

42:30

person who believes that all humans

42:32

are worthy of dignity and love

42:34

and respect, right, do I want

42:36

to, quote, unquote, be responsible? for

42:38

bringing another disabled person into the

42:40

world, etc. And we don't like

42:42

to talk about those things because

42:44

they are the ugly side of

42:46

who we are. But I do

42:48

think that in this moment, again,

42:50

it's really important for us to

42:52

grapple with the ethical implications here.

42:54

This was such a good, a

42:56

really good article, but also really,

42:58

really good take. Your take in

43:00

the article both made me think

43:03

about the, do you remember the

43:05

National Geographic? image that showed what

43:07

humans are supposed to look like

43:09

in 2050. And it was just

43:11

like biracial girl. It reminded me

43:13

of that. And so the first

43:15

thing I thought to myself was

43:17

who would know that we will

43:19

all look like these biracial cyborgs,

43:21

not just because that's where genetics

43:23

was going, but that's where Genex

43:25

is going to be engineered, you

43:27

know, in like these choices. But

43:29

I will have to say that

43:31

I'm not surprised because, and this

43:33

is no, you know. This is

43:35

no offense because I don't know

43:37

what I'm going to be doing

43:39

during the summer because my body

43:41

is looking good and I've been

43:43

wanting to show people what is

43:45

going on because Sunny can't handle

43:47

it no more. So I've been

43:49

wanting to do it but I

43:51

always have this little this little

43:53

feminist critic in the back of

43:55

my head understanding that any time

43:57

that I put something out that

43:59

emphasizes weight loss or emphasizes certain

44:01

things I'm feeding into the diet

44:03

culture and the fitness culture because

44:05

I see that when a lot

44:07

of people who don't do decolonizing

44:09

work decide to put images in

44:11

creations out it looks a lot

44:13

like the dominant cultures. So I

44:15

used to think that we used

44:17

to think that 3 a.m. 4

44:19

a.m. We would have you know,

44:21

gym and infomercials and that was

44:23

just how it was because the

44:25

powers that be at these executive

44:27

tops, that's just what they chose

44:29

for us to see is diet

44:31

commercials and pill supplements. But when

44:33

we're left to our own devices,

44:36

that's what comes to the top

44:38

too. The thinness, the workout culture,

44:40

and I don't want to just

44:42

talk about that, but it's one

44:44

thing that I think all. all

44:46

people participate in, that it's a

44:48

healthy thing, but as soon as

44:50

it goes into the media, it

44:52

turns into culture and it turns

44:54

to something to be oppressed by.

44:56

And there's some connectivity to, oh,

44:58

when you're left to your own

45:00

devices, sure, we love people of

45:02

all skin colors and all, in

45:04

all, no shapes and all this

45:06

other stuff. But if you could

45:08

choose, choose blue and a thin

45:10

nose, you know? And just with

45:12

fat people, it's like, oh, we

45:14

love Lizzo. Oh my goodness, she

45:16

can't help it. Her metabolism is

45:18

slow, but now that we've got

45:20

osympics, they're like, bitch, you better

45:22

go take a shot. Get out

45:24

of our face. Get out of

45:26

our face. You have no more

45:28

excuses. Get the perm, take the

45:30

shot. Change your baby's nose, because

45:32

we don't want to look at

45:34

it. So much of people's desire

45:36

for cures for disabled people, and

45:38

people living with sickness, is to

45:40

cure their own discomfort with people.

45:42

Health and I think this article

45:44

in your evaluation of the articles

45:46

just terrifically sums it up so

45:48

I'm in agreement hopefully some of

45:50

that makes sense but um I

45:52

see what you putting down and

45:54

I agree and I think people

45:56

should be shamed. What do you

45:58

say to the people who would

46:00

say like but if you can

46:02

give your kid an advantage, like

46:04

are no advantages acceptable? I hear

46:06

that, right? And look, I'm not

46:08

a parent and I'm not a

46:11

parent of a disabled child or

46:13

I'm not a parent of a

46:15

child who requires like around the

46:17

clock care and caregiving, right? Like

46:19

I recognize that I'm even entering

46:21

this conversation from a different place

46:23

in some other people might. And

46:25

I think there is a difference

46:27

between saying like, you know, I

46:29

carry a genetic. trait or disposition

46:31

towards like having a child who

46:33

might not survive past infancy and

46:35

so if I can screen the

46:37

embryos for that I would like

46:39

to to avoid the pain and

46:41

suffering of that child and my

46:43

own pain and suffering right I

46:45

think that's one thing I think

46:47

it's a completely different thing to

46:49

say I want a child who

46:51

is six feet tall with blue

46:53

eyes and a thin nose I

46:55

just do and I think We

46:57

have to reckon with the fact

46:59

that like what what traits we

47:01

consider desirable are shaped not by

47:03

our own sort of you know

47:05

preferences or even what makes for

47:07

like genetic or evolutionary viability right

47:09

they are they are shaped by

47:11

social structures right and they are

47:13

shaped by social structures that elevate

47:15

one group of people and one

47:17

set of traits over another and

47:19

I think if that is the

47:21

case right like on a good

47:23

day I'm five three with a

47:25

round face like I I'm the

47:27

person who gets weeded out, you

47:29

know what I'm saying? And like

47:31

I always think about the fact

47:33

that people who were having these

47:35

conversations are making these choices, are

47:37

not just about their own discomfort

47:39

with other people, but also about

47:41

some internalized stuff that they have

47:44

about how they look and how

47:46

they show up in the world,

47:48

right? And this projection of like

47:50

your children as your vanity projects,

47:52

like where do we get back

47:54

to this place of like, in

47:56

all human life is worthy of

47:58

dignity. And I think for us,

48:00

until we are there, there's so

48:02

many other entry points into deciding

48:04

who is worthy of like, of

48:06

life and of, and of thriving

48:08

in our society and culture. And

48:10

having that be so tied to

48:12

physical appearance and very racialized traits

48:14

is terrifying to me. The only

48:16

thing I'd add to this because

48:18

you to, like Sharana, there's nothing,

48:20

you did that you did that.

48:22

You did that. is, you know,

48:24

I think that people are, of

48:26

all, whatever, I think about the

48:28

people that I work to organize,

48:30

are, are able to have these

48:32

conversations. Like, they can participate in

48:34

them, they can understand it, da

48:36

da da da. And I do

48:38

think there's like a classist way

48:40

that these conversations sort of happen

48:42

that like exclude a whole set

48:44

of people who actually have deep.

48:46

beliefs about ethics and morality. They

48:48

don't call it ethics and they

48:50

don't use the word morality, but

48:52

they have strong opinions about a

48:54

lot of things. And this is

48:56

actually how I think when people

48:58

talk about the conservatism of black

49:00

people, I actually think so much

49:02

of that is like the unexplored

49:04

ideas of like people have not

49:06

been put in places to have

49:08

ideas deeply challenged or. So, that,

49:10

that, because people are like, no,

49:12

this is what they believe. And

49:14

you're like, I'm going with, you

49:16

know, I remember having to explain

49:19

to my father what consent was.

49:21

It was, that was not language

49:23

that he used. And we had

49:25

this, like, really hard conversation about

49:27

consent. And we had this, like,

49:29

really hard conversation about consent. And

49:31

he could do it. He could,

49:33

he could, he could, he could,

49:35

he could, he could, That was

49:37

what he grew up in. Now,

49:39

did he have the capacity to

49:41

understand where we are today? Absolutely,

49:43

right? And I do think these

49:45

questions of like, like, Sharon, I

49:47

think that your reminder that that

49:49

preference is shaped by dominant culture

49:51

always is something that people have

49:53

not been invited. There are a

49:55

set of people who have not

49:57

been invited into that conversation, who

49:59

think that that is like a

50:01

conspiracy theory, and you're like, no,

50:03

you know, and I'm interested in

50:05

how we help people have these

50:07

conversations in their living rooms. And

50:09

I do think that that is

50:11

a part of power building. That'll

50:13

be. Yeah. Can I say one

50:15

more thing about that? I think

50:17

to Miles' point, you know, using

50:19

the Lizzo example, there is an

50:21

expectation that once this technology becomes

50:23

available to you, you will avail

50:25

yourself of it. And so if

50:27

I were to have a child

50:29

and I were to say like,

50:31

whatever my kid comes out looking

50:33

like, people would be like. Well,

50:35

is that a responsible choice for

50:37

you to make? Right? You have

50:39

the ability to choose. Why wouldn't

50:41

you? You know? And like, am

50:43

I then being seen as like

50:45

a bad parent or like somebody

50:47

who was potentially setting my kid

50:49

up for more hardship than they

50:52

deserve when I could just do

50:54

the thing that is quote unquote

50:56

easy and then make sure that

50:58

I'm selecting a kid with the

51:00

lightest possible skin, the finest possible

51:02

hair and the thinnest possible nose.

51:04

Right? Like I'm a descendant of

51:06

Louisiana Creos, right? It's in my

51:08

genetic somewhere, right. I think we

51:10

just have to be just much

51:12

more critical of like scientific advancement,

51:14

quote unquote, for the sake of

51:16

scientific advancement, because I think it

51:18

always comes at the expense of

51:20

those of us who are undesirable,

51:22

and y'all can't see my air

51:24

quotes, but you know, yeah. Can

51:26

I say one more thing that,

51:28

because Thore got me thinking, there's

51:30

actually just connectivity between the hair.

51:32

the hair purring conversation in this.

51:34

There's a connectivity between the bleaching

51:36

conversation in this and there's connect.

51:38

As I sit here with my

51:40

silk press. You know, and there's

51:42

connectivity between, you know, I always

51:44

say, I call it out, but

51:46

I'm like, you don't see me

51:48

over here wearing Kese cloth every

51:50

single day. I'm like, I'm over

51:52

here negotiating what helps me move

51:54

through society just like everybody else.

51:56

and also what feels good on

51:58

my person, but I know that

52:00

usually that feels that is informed

52:02

by something, but the other part

52:04

is, it makes me think of

52:06

name choice. And I was just

52:08

watching somebody, this great comedian, her

52:10

name is Nicole Byer, but she

52:12

was talking about how her Caribbean

52:14

parents. purposefully named her Nicole because

52:16

they were considering her getting jobs.

52:18

So even before she was born,

52:20

her life was already being shaped

52:22

and influenced by race. And the

52:24

thing that feels dystopian and the

52:27

thing that I think that could

52:29

be that we can create a

52:31

story around or some visuals around

52:33

or something around because I think

52:35

when things are in movies or

52:37

films or in stories, they hit

52:39

people a little bit different, is

52:41

what does it look like a

52:43

generation of black people who decided

52:45

to name their children, Nicole and

52:47

Beth, who decided to optimize their

52:49

looks, who decided to do all

52:51

those different things and what is

52:53

lost. And as I drag on

52:55

the ray about. his fitness pictures,

52:57

he also does a good work,

52:59

but he also does a really

53:01

great work because how many times

53:03

in our lives when we were

53:05

younger did we see a handsome

53:07

dark-skinned black man who was smiling

53:09

at you. So any time he

53:11

posted a picture in smiles, he's

53:13

actually in combat with so many

53:15

images that we see of black

53:17

men who are his skin complexion

53:19

doing violent things or doing heinous

53:21

things. So that's still a work.

53:23

So we have to see us

53:25

showing up as the black that

53:27

we were here. I get preach.

53:29

I get preach. the black that

53:31

the ancestor is so active to

53:33

be if the if the ancestor

53:35

than God made you that version

53:37

of black it's your duty your

53:39

responsibility to find the beauty in

53:41

that and project it to the

53:43

world not to craft it for

53:45

yourself or your child I do

53:47

believe that as anti as anti

53:49

every but do what you want

53:51

we all negotiate we all know

53:53

what do what you want one

53:55

of my best day that's what

53:57

I believe So I've been doing

54:00

a lot of research. I've been

54:02

falling back in love with writing.

54:04

It has been years since I've

54:06

been feeling like writing something like

54:08

maybe every year I write one

54:10

or two things that I'm just

54:12

not that happy with. I put

54:14

it away, but I've been falling

54:16

back in love with writing. I've

54:18

been preparing to collect some writings

54:20

to launch my sub stack. And

54:22

one of the things that I

54:24

of course wanted to write about

54:26

was the Cult of Black exceptionalism

54:28

and the Cult of Black Excellence.

54:30

And in that, I've been researching

54:32

different moments of... high moments of

54:34

black excellence in kind of just

54:36

doing my own little autopsy report

54:38

on what was really going on,

54:40

what maybe I missed because I

54:42

was young or partying and drunk

54:44

and didn't notice, and what can

54:46

I now use my critical gaze

54:48

to see things differently and maybe

54:50

connect some dots. I saw in

54:52

the news that the New York

54:54

Times article about black men's attendance

54:56

of colleges dropping steadily. A lot

54:58

of that went viral, Torrey kind

55:00

of synthesized those thoughts in that

55:02

video ended up, the journal's Torrey

55:04

synthesized those thoughts in that video

55:06

that he did ended up going

55:08

viral as well. And it got

55:10

me thinking about. how

55:13

black men got there how we

55:15

got there is there are there

55:18

any answers are there any hints

55:20

that we can that we can

55:22

point to as moments that are

55:25

of Deviation from from the norm

55:27

that maybe helps black men get

55:29

to Get to this position and

55:31

that let me to this op-ed

55:34

article about Asada Shakur that I

55:36

had no idea about so during

55:38

prison Obama's presidency. The bouncy on

55:41

a shot of Shakur's head went

55:43

up. She got elevated to terrorists

55:45

during his presidency and then as

55:48

I read the article in the

55:50

links and the news reports it

55:52

wasn't happenstance it wasn't it was

55:55

a it was a strategic campaign

55:57

to to to do this in

55:59

order to navigate the geopolitical theater

56:01

that he wants to do at

56:04

that time around Cuba. And y'all

56:06

know I'm big on symbolism.

56:08

There is something wild about probably

56:10

the pinnacle of the black excellent

56:12

status symbol, which is Barack Obama,

56:14

right? I'm not talking people as

56:16

humans or even politicians right now,

56:19

just as symbols, because we have

56:21

to know that when we get

56:23

into the public sphere, we... We also

56:25

serve as a symbolic work

56:27

too. So we have Barack

56:30

Obama, who is the status

56:32

symbol of black

56:34

excellence, then using his

56:36

power that he accrued

56:39

his imperial power to

56:41

dominate the status symbol

56:43

of black power in

56:46

liberation. And just for

56:48

people who maybe don't know

56:50

what happened with this shot

56:52

of Shakur, she was accused

56:54

of shooting being a cop

56:56

killer. Even though there was,

56:58

the evidence was lacking, and

57:00

then also this is at

57:02

a time when we look

57:05

at Cointel Pro and how

57:07

the United States had a

57:09

deliberate and organized war on

57:11

the black liberation movement. So

57:13

there's her Angela Davis. There's

57:15

always been a lot of. questions

57:17

and talk about the legitimacy of that

57:20

moment when it comes to what the

57:22

police were telling us what's happening with

57:24

black people. Fred Hampton just came to

57:26

mind as well. And I wanted to

57:29

bring the story to the podcast because

57:31

the one thing I think the New

57:33

York Times piece really missed from what

57:36

I've read is that there is a

57:38

cultural gap when it comes to black

57:40

men in these institutions we're requesting them

57:43

assimilate into. Now we're asking black men

57:45

with 100 years. They were lynched. They

57:47

were totally shunned out of it. We're

57:49

asking more black men to feel comfortable

57:51

inside of it. And when we look

57:53

at Corey Booker and why he doesn't

57:55

resonate with me and I look at

57:57

him and something about him just does

57:59

not. neck with me when I look

58:01

at Barack Obama and see that he

58:04

doesn't resonate with me too. Michelle Obama

58:06

was doing a lot of that work

58:08

of resonating with me and a lot

58:11

of what the affection I was projecting

58:13

onto him was really my affection for

58:15

Michelle Obama and him choosing her. That

58:17

was a big part of it. I

58:20

think that as we think about those

58:22

moments there's ways that black folks can

58:24

be more accountable and more complicated with

58:26

how we think about our icons and

58:29

not keeping them on these pedestals that

58:31

don't let us really critically analyze what

58:33

they did what they said they were

58:36

going to do what they were symbolic

58:38

for and what they actually did because

58:40

you know Brock Obama wasn't a Trojan

58:42

horse to a lot of liberatory movements.

58:45

He was, he was this thing that

58:47

seemed to pacify us and sing Amazing

58:49

Grace when we were getting shot when

58:51

I don't know if that's what we

58:54

needed. He was the person who said,

58:56

oh, Trayvon would look just like me.

58:58

And I don't know if that's what

59:01

we would, that we needed. I don't

59:03

know if we needed somebody who was

59:05

in the imperial power, who we were

59:07

sympathizing with in order to galvanize black

59:10

folks in our movement work. And that's

59:12

complicated for me because there's nobody who

59:14

has been black excellent pill like me,

59:16

like as a Beyonce stand, as somebody

59:19

who loves me, who does not want

59:21

any type of housing or any or

59:23

or career that does that's not impressive

59:26

to people it's hard for me to

59:28

look at somebody like a Barack Obama

59:30

and gaze on him really critically but

59:32

but this moment that thing the Sata

59:35

Shakur thing was something where I was

59:37

like yeah I can't I can't look

59:39

over that that was wrong and that's

59:41

complicated and when we talk about black

59:44

men Not being college a warning to

59:46

be assimilated into certain systems. We have

59:48

to look at who were the representatives

59:51

into those systems and was that somebody

59:53

who black men would even as to

59:55

be when there's somebody who betrayed their

59:57

kind of, that kind of secret black

1:00:00

politic that we were all supposed to

1:00:02

kind of carry in the back of

1:00:04

our heads. You know, I think we

1:00:06

all think in our heads that if

1:00:09

a black person runs for president, the

1:00:11

first thing they're going to try to

1:00:13

do is give us some reparations. The

1:00:16

first thing they're going to try to

1:00:18

do is tell us about a short

1:00:20

to sit down or figure out a

1:00:22

way to make our lives better. in

1:00:25

a lot of ways for black people.

1:00:27

He did not do that in a

1:00:29

lot of ways he was singularly responsible

1:00:31

for the worsening of conditions for black

1:00:34

people in one of those black people

1:00:36

being a side of Shakur. So yeah,

1:00:38

I wanted to bring that to the

1:00:41

podcast. What did you think? Don't, nobody

1:00:43

hit me because I still got Barack

1:00:45

Obama hanging up next to my Tupaw

1:00:47

picture. And black Jesus got ties to

1:00:50

MOK. One is I went to UC

1:00:52

Santa Cruz, which is where Angela Davis

1:00:54

was able to find her academic home

1:00:56

after she was released from prison and

1:00:59

Ronald Reagan, who at the time was

1:01:01

governor of California, said she would never

1:01:03

work in the UC system again. And

1:01:06

my campus was like, actually, she will.

1:01:08

And so she was an active professor

1:01:10

there when I was an undergrad. took

1:01:12

a bunch of classes with her partner.

1:01:15

And, you know, my first year of

1:01:17

undergrad, like in our classes, everybody got

1:01:19

Asada, you know what I mean? Like,

1:01:21

we got a copy of it. It

1:01:24

was like, it was part of our

1:01:26

freshman year reading. And so, you know,

1:01:28

we were, Santa Cruz was like, we're

1:01:31

the radical campus, Angela Davis is a

1:01:33

professor here, we're gonna read about Asada,

1:01:35

and... I looked at this, or I

1:01:37

read this article, and I was like,

1:01:40

you know, she in a lot of

1:01:42

ways, Asada has become like Che Gavira

1:01:44

to a lot of people, right? Like

1:01:46

she's on t-shirts, she's on whatever, but

1:01:49

if you ask most people, one, what

1:01:51

did she stand for? What were her

1:01:53

principles? What was she like going so

1:01:56

hard about? Most people couldn't tell you,

1:01:58

right? I think also most people probably

1:02:00

couldn't tell you because again she's been

1:02:02

decontextualized I think intentionally. And so it

1:02:05

felt almost like to your point like

1:02:07

of all people right like why go

1:02:09

after this person who is not really

1:02:11

part of the public consciousness in any

1:02:14

way that is like radicalizing people or

1:02:16

pushing them to take up arms against

1:02:18

the US like it just felt like

1:02:21

a like why waste your capital in

1:02:23

that way. The other thing that I

1:02:25

thought about too is that you know

1:02:27

Obama himself had come under intense scrutiny

1:02:30

and criticism because of his relationship with

1:02:32

Bill Ayers who was really active in

1:02:34

the weather underground right so it was

1:02:36

like a white radical group that had

1:02:39

actually perpetrated violence against the United States

1:02:41

right and had been part of in

1:02:43

a lot of ways helping some of

1:02:46

these black liberation fighters who had been

1:02:48

incarcerated escape right and they were part

1:02:50

of the the group that helped Asada

1:02:52

get out and like leave the country

1:02:55

too, right? And so it's like, how

1:02:57

do you also have fancy dinners with

1:02:59

Bill Ayers, right? And then also do

1:03:01

the work of like upping the bounty

1:03:04

on Asada. Like I also just can't

1:03:06

understand that part either and how he

1:03:08

rationalized and made sense of that. And

1:03:11

I think in thinking about what it

1:03:13

means to have. I remember when the

1:03:15

billboards went up again about a sata

1:03:17

in New Jersey, right? Like I remember

1:03:20

seeing them and finding that also to

1:03:22

be just sort of strange. And I

1:03:24

don't know who he was placating or

1:03:26

who he was speaking to in that

1:03:29

moment, which is also a big question

1:03:31

for me because like who cares who's

1:03:33

paying attention to this, what political points

1:03:36

are you gaining. But I also think

1:03:38

about You know to your point of

1:03:40

like what we expect particularly of black

1:03:42

men who get into these systems of

1:03:45

power I just I think like to

1:03:47

come after a black woman you know

1:03:49

to bring us kind of back to

1:03:51

an earlier conversation that we were having

1:03:54

just feels like why point the entire

1:03:56

sort of power of the of the

1:03:58

United States government again out of black

1:04:01

woman who is who has lost everything

1:04:03

right she has no relationship with her

1:04:05

children you know or her daughter she

1:04:07

has no relationship with her grandchildren really

1:04:10

right like what are we getting this

1:04:12

far removed from from from that like

1:04:14

what does she what space does she

1:04:16

continue to occupy in the black and

1:04:19

in the sort of more general American

1:04:21

imagination that she felt like a worthy

1:04:23

and deserving target in this way were

1:04:26

my questions. Back in the

1:04:28

day before the internet, the FBI would

1:04:30

make mailers about people on the wanted

1:04:32

list. I have two framed rare mailers

1:04:34

about Asada Shikor in my house framed

1:04:37

on the wall. I think about her

1:04:39

every day when I walk down the

1:04:41

hall. I'm interested in this, you know,

1:04:43

it's funny, Miles, because as much as

1:04:45

you're like, don't hit me, I am

1:04:47

like, don't hit me because I really

1:04:50

am not trying to be like necessarily

1:04:52

a Obama defender because he was the

1:04:54

president doesn't necessarily need my defense. I

1:04:56

do think of him though as a

1:04:58

victim of his own success in so

1:05:01

many ways that like what happens when

1:05:03

you go from being a legislator to

1:05:05

the president, never having been an executive

1:05:07

before. And he, some of those early

1:05:09

decisions for sure, you know, until we

1:05:12

get to Obamacare, they remind me of

1:05:14

the black people I know who go

1:05:16

into big leadership roles in traditional white

1:05:18

run places, and they are like, I'm

1:05:20

a do it the way it's been

1:05:22

done. They're like, I am now the

1:05:25

CEO, I'm the president. They're like, I'm

1:05:27

not here to break nothing. I'm not

1:05:29

here to like, I've been there. And

1:05:31

they don't realize until really late that

1:05:33

this is all shoestrings holding the thing

1:05:36

up. It is smoking mirrors. That is

1:05:38

like the performance of amazingness. It is

1:05:40

people screaming and yelling at each other

1:05:42

that have made some of the decisions

1:05:44

that you thought were made in a

1:05:47

collaborative spirit was like brute force. forced

1:05:49

it through. You know, like, you don't

1:05:51

know that until you've actually been in

1:05:53

the room. And what happens when you

1:05:55

just were never in the room this

1:05:57

way and then you were in the

1:06:00

biggest room imaginable? Like, that's actually hard.

1:06:02

So I could see somebody come to

1:06:04

him being like, we gotta do this,

1:06:06

da da da. And he's like, okay,

1:06:08

we gotta do it. And you're like,

1:06:11

instead of being like, me. I don't

1:06:13

think we do this. Or like, I

1:06:15

think about the Travon. You know, what

1:06:17

he said on Travon was so simple.

1:06:19

And or when he had that, when

1:06:22

the Henry, those gates up, and Lord

1:06:24

knows, you'd have thought that he would

1:06:26

have, he said, kill every police officer

1:06:28

in America. And you know, I can,

1:06:30

I can only imagine what that looks

1:06:33

like. And, you know, obviously on an

1:06:35

infinitely much smaller space, I think about

1:06:37

when I was in Baltimore City Public

1:06:39

Schools and I later became public schools

1:06:41

and I later became Chief, but I

1:06:43

later became Chief, but I was Chief,

1:06:46

You couldn't tell me that those people

1:06:48

weren't. Every decision was like the most

1:06:50

noble. Like people stayed up all night

1:06:52

and the school board was like asking

1:06:54

really to and then I got in

1:06:57

there and I'm like, oh, this is

1:06:59

a game. This is like personalities and

1:07:01

like this is actually not as principled

1:07:03

as I thought and I did not

1:07:05

know that at all until I had

1:07:08

a chance to be on the inside,

1:07:10

which is no excuse for Obama, but

1:07:12

I do it to me explains. a

1:07:14

lot. And I even think about, I

1:07:16

was intervening with Obama where he had

1:07:18

this sociologist who was essentially saying there

1:07:21

is no racial impact of police violence.

1:07:23

Like there's no disproportionate impact on black

1:07:25

people. And we're sitting at the table.

1:07:27

And this guy's from Harvard and there's

1:07:29

an Obama, I could see Obama look

1:07:32

at him like, well, the study said,

1:07:34

right? We're saying like, man, if you'll

1:07:36

stop talking about this study, we all

1:07:38

about to turn this from upside down,

1:07:40

not the study. You know, he's like,

1:07:43

take it and you're like, Obama, that's

1:07:45

not you missing. This is, this room

1:07:47

is about to get really hard if

1:07:49

you keep doing this, like, but there's

1:07:51

no racial, and it was like, yeah,

1:07:53

I think about, he, a lot of

1:07:56

decisions, it's like what happens when you

1:07:58

never were in the room before in

1:08:00

that way to me. a couple of,

1:08:02

just two things that kind of wrap

1:08:04

up into like what y'all were talking

1:08:07

about. And y'all's commentary made me think

1:08:09

about, I thought about Jeremiah Wright. and

1:08:11

how there was, they're needed. They threw

1:08:13

that man to the walls. And they

1:08:15

needed to do something in order to

1:08:18

distance himself from what Jeremiah Wright was

1:08:20

saying in the pulpit about America and

1:08:22

politically. So I do think that this

1:08:24

might have been one of those moments

1:08:26

to show how far, to prove how

1:08:28

far away he was from Jeremiah Wright.

1:08:31

And again, to your point there, like,

1:08:33

I think the reason why it's important

1:08:35

to. talk about and why I'm glad

1:08:37

we're talking about it and I hope

1:08:39

that other people bring this up and

1:08:42

complicate their own conversations politically based off

1:08:44

of information like this and conversations like

1:08:46

this is because I think that's how

1:08:48

you make a better next black president.

1:08:50

You know, I'm still pretty pragmatic when

1:08:53

it comes to stuff. So I still

1:08:55

think that the empire is not going

1:08:57

to fall. So what is the most

1:08:59

powerful thing we can do while the

1:09:01

empire is intact? And I think that

1:09:03

it helps us shape our expectations. And

1:09:06

I think for a lot of people

1:09:08

who were voting, our expectations were simply

1:09:10

just to see the symbolism and hopefully

1:09:12

he'll wink, wink, throw some dollars. And

1:09:14

now we're seeing we need a more

1:09:17

organized, principled, principled, clear... case for what

1:09:19

you're going to do for black people

1:09:21

no matter what color you are. We

1:09:23

can't assume anything. And to your point,

1:09:25

how power and how these different institutions

1:09:28

do shape us and shape our choices.

1:09:30

I think that's something everybody can talk

1:09:32

about because I promise you I would

1:09:34

have not been talking about Katie Perry

1:09:36

and Lizo as much as I was

1:09:39

talking about it if it wasn't for

1:09:41

me being in certain institutions. You know,

1:09:43

so it's something that we all participate

1:09:45

in. We should all talk about. Yeah,

1:09:48

and listen right next to my

1:09:50

copy of Asada is also my

1:09:53

copy of Becoming. Okay, so... Now

1:09:55

that's a born book. See, the

1:09:57

audible good. Yes. But I was

1:09:59

like, oh, like, Michelle, I need

1:10:01

for you to go ahead and

1:10:04

just, um, put this to a

1:10:06

computer someday, sister. Yeah, yeah. It

1:10:08

was a boring book? A boring,

1:10:10

a boring, a boring, a boring

1:10:13

read. Like, she's, you know, you

1:10:15

really need to get into a

1:10:17

gunk. And right now it's like,

1:10:19

sister, we want to hear about

1:10:21

your, there was nothing that Hollywood

1:10:24

unlocked will pick up from that

1:10:26

book. It's a story of persuasion.

1:10:28

Right, it's like a, it's like

1:10:30

a start it from humble beginnings,

1:10:32

but then, right, like it's a,

1:10:35

it's a very sort of polished

1:10:37

look at her life. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

1:10:39

Queen mothers. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

1:10:41

Yeah. Before we go, can I

1:10:44

say one more thing about black

1:10:46

women though? One of my friends

1:10:48

listened to my first appearance on

1:10:50

this pod and she wants me

1:10:52

to correct the record. So Corinne,

1:10:55

this is for you. You did

1:10:57

make me Tamales the year that

1:10:59

I got cut off from my

1:11:01

Mexican Tamale connect because he voted

1:11:03

for Trump. She is a black

1:11:06

woman who stood in the gap

1:11:08

and learned to make Tamales. And

1:11:10

so we did have Christmas Tamales.

1:11:12

Corin. So thank you, Corinne. You

1:11:15

see how when people got the

1:11:17

mic? She was just on. Tamale

1:11:19

this. And she has, she was

1:11:21

hermale full things to you, Corinne.

1:11:23

See, thank you for cutting her

1:11:26

face. Hey, you're listening to Potsy

1:11:28

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appointment today. There

1:12:27

is a Supreme Court race in

1:12:29

North Carolina and Democratic Supreme Court

1:12:31

Justice Allison Riggs. She won the

1:12:33

Republican loss by 734 votes and

1:12:35

he raised holy hell about those

1:12:37

734 votes. He appealed, appealed again

1:12:40

and now a panel of the

1:12:42

North Carolina Court of Appeals which

1:12:44

is the intermediary court in North

1:12:46

Carolina court in North Carolina. They

1:12:48

have ruled that roughly 60,000 ballots

1:12:50

can be fast-tracked to be thrown

1:12:52

out. It would by all accounts

1:12:54

this was a legitimate election she

1:12:56

fairly won this would make the

1:12:58

Supreme Court it would keep it

1:13:00

a not it would make it

1:13:02

not a mag of court if

1:13:04

Allison Riggs is able to go

1:13:06

through but I thought it was

1:13:09

interesting you know I will say

1:13:11

this until we fix it but

1:13:13

voter ID legitimately is my it's

1:13:15

my thing it is my villain

1:13:17

origin story it's the hill I

1:13:19

will die on it is the

1:13:21

litmus test by which I figure

1:13:23

out whether the left nailed the

1:13:25

messaging or not. Because when you

1:13:27

look at the way the categories

1:13:29

are rendered, there are about 5,000

1:13:31

people who were either overseas or

1:13:33

in the military who voted by

1:13:35

absent T ballot, but they forgot

1:13:38

to put a photocopy of their

1:13:40

photo ID or the form that

1:13:42

is an exception form explaining why

1:13:44

they don't have a photocopy of

1:13:46

it. They did not put it

1:13:48

in the envelope. Those people have

1:13:50

15 business days to do so.

1:13:52

Now, who is going to notify

1:13:54

those people overseas? God only knows.

1:13:56

But, you know, a lot of

1:13:58

people don't realize that, you know,

1:14:00

in some places, when you vote

1:14:02

by absentee ballot, you have to

1:14:04

put a photocopy of your ID.

1:14:07

Now, how secure is that? It's

1:14:09

not. You can make up a,

1:14:11

who is actually checking that to

1:14:13

make it real? Who is going

1:14:15

through the form to see if

1:14:17

you have a, it's not a

1:14:19

thing. These are literally just mechanisms

1:14:21

to stop people from voting. There

1:14:23

are about 60,000 people though, who

1:14:25

have quote incomplete voter registration. So

1:14:27

they might have like missed something

1:14:29

on the form, blah blah blah

1:14:31

blah blah. All these people have,

1:14:33

um, have 15 days to. correct

1:14:36

whatever the state is saying that

1:14:38

they got wrong. Now what's interesting

1:14:40

about it is that in an

1:14:42

affidavit, the State Board of Elections

1:14:44

has already said that most of

1:14:46

these people, the majority of these

1:14:48

people, were definitely properly registered. So

1:14:50

these are like all random technicalities.

1:14:52

And the only reason why they're

1:14:54

able to even contest these votes

1:14:56

is that there was a Republican

1:14:58

consultant. who did an analysis, and

1:15:00

he did an analysis that matched

1:15:02

people's voter registration to their Social

1:15:05

Security number, a driver's license number,

1:15:07

or absentee voter list. And he

1:15:09

came up with this magical number

1:15:11

around the 60,000. And because he

1:15:13

was a Republican, the Republican Court

1:15:15

of Appeals is actually, is like

1:15:17

sort of entertaining this today. And,

1:15:19

you know, I just am. fascinated

1:15:21

by this. It is interesting that

1:15:23

you know even at the state

1:15:25

level they are doing anything they

1:15:27

to like take over the court

1:15:29

system that is their thing and

1:15:31

you know I'll tell you that

1:15:34

If we lose these battles, we

1:15:36

lose a lot. I was just

1:15:38

before the Fifth Circuit Court of

1:15:40

Appeals. And when I tell you

1:15:42

this Reagan appointed judge, there were

1:15:44

two quotes she said about my

1:15:46

case. We might do an episode

1:15:48

of my case because it is

1:15:50

bigger than me. But the Fifth

1:15:52

Circuit Court of Appeals judge, she

1:15:54

says on the record, he is

1:15:56

not Martin Luther King Jr. That's

1:15:58

what she says about me while

1:16:00

I'm in the courtroom. And then

1:16:03

she says every protest BLM led

1:16:05

ended in violence. This is like

1:16:07

what she is saying from. the

1:16:09

from the dais. And I'm looking

1:16:11

at her like, you know, I

1:16:13

will probably be fine in my

1:16:15

case, but I'm thinking about all

1:16:17

the decisions you have made. She

1:16:19

was appointed by Reagan. I'm like,

1:16:21

oh, this woman, this is really,

1:16:23

really something. But I brought it

1:16:25

here because I'm I'm fascinated by

1:16:27

it. We should watch what's happening

1:16:29

in North Carolina and the courts,

1:16:32

I hope, become a space of

1:16:34

actual advocacy, like that we build

1:16:36

institutions court watch is interesting. I

1:16:38

don't know if Corotia nationally has

1:16:40

the capacity to do with the

1:16:42

moment requires around the court apparatus

1:16:44

though. What you were saying about

1:16:46

voting rights really hit me because

1:16:48

I've been watching television and I

1:16:50

was reading some articles on NPR

1:16:52

and do you know, um, Ellie

1:16:54

Mistall, he's coming, he's just released

1:16:56

a book called Ten Bad Laws

1:16:58

and I haven't read yet but

1:17:01

I really want to read it.

1:17:03

He's been doing his press run

1:17:05

and part of his press run

1:17:07

was NPR in the View which

1:17:09

are two places that I frequent

1:17:11

child and I wanted to talk

1:17:13

about it because he's been talking

1:17:15

about. these laws he wants to

1:17:17

see abolished and I'm like if

1:17:19

I hope there's a lot of

1:17:21

Democrats looking at this stuff because

1:17:23

those ideas really excited me so

1:17:25

I know if they excite me

1:17:27

they excite others but I just

1:17:30

want to read a little piece

1:17:32

of his interview the person asking

1:17:34

the question says Ellie you actually

1:17:36

start off the book asking the

1:17:38

question why isn't everyone registered to

1:17:40

vote? Every single voter registration law

1:17:42

you argue is anti-democratic and I

1:17:44

do want you to explain what

1:17:46

you mean and then Miss Dahl

1:17:48

said every single one right so

1:17:50

look voter eligibility requirements are one

1:17:52

right voter eligibility requirements are things

1:17:54

like you have to be 18

1:17:56

you have to live in the

1:17:59

state that you vote in and

1:18:01

all these kinds of rules and

1:18:03

regulations and I can argue that

1:18:05

some of the eligibility requirements are

1:18:07

bad or wrong but again the

1:18:09

scoping of the book what can

1:18:11

we repeal I don't think that

1:18:13

we can repeal voter eligibility requirements

1:18:15

we need to have some of

1:18:17

them even some of them the

1:18:19

ones that I wouldn't agree with

1:18:21

or agree with or like what

1:18:23

a registration on the other the

1:18:25

rules of eligibility, everybody who is

1:18:28

eligible should be automatically registered to

1:18:30

vote. And that is not just

1:18:32

me saying that, that is most

1:18:34

of the democratic world saying that

1:18:36

America is unique and it's double

1:18:38

hurdles to voting. We call ourselves

1:18:40

the greatest democracy in the world.

1:18:42

We are not. We are not

1:18:44

in the top 10 because of

1:18:46

other countries have universal registration. Sorry

1:18:48

for my stuttering. They wrote it

1:18:50

how he spoke. So there's a

1:18:52

lot of likes and rights and

1:18:54

rights. And I'm like, what's going

1:18:57

on. some really radical ideas about

1:18:59

what should be shifted in America

1:19:01

that really excited me about the

1:19:03

ideas of that. And before you

1:19:05

go, Sharana, I'll say that the

1:19:07

voter ID stuff in North Carolina

1:19:09

had been blocked before by litigation.

1:19:11

It only recently became unblocked and

1:19:13

got enacted at the local level.

1:19:15

If not for the voter ID

1:19:17

infrastructure, there would be no legal

1:19:19

basis to even challenge this many

1:19:21

votes. I think, you know, I

1:19:23

decided to dig a little bit.

1:19:26

One thing I've been doing recently,

1:19:28

sorry, is like watching local news

1:19:30

coverage of nationally important stories because

1:19:32

I think often local news takes

1:19:34

a very different angle on what's

1:19:36

happening. And sometimes I think particularly

1:19:38

with some of the big affiliates,

1:19:40

they take a. Everything is sort

1:19:42

of covered in the tone of

1:19:44

like a good morning America story,

1:19:46

right? And so I listened to

1:19:48

this and watched a couple of

1:19:50

local news segments. And a couple

1:19:52

of additional things came out. One

1:19:55

is that like the targeting of

1:19:57

Democratic districts, right? It probably gives

1:19:59

the Democratic candidate an opportunity to

1:20:01

appeal, right? Because I think she

1:20:03

can make a case for this

1:20:05

being very specifically about targeting people

1:20:07

that he assumes did not vote

1:20:09

for him versus being about election

1:20:11

integrity, right? I think the other

1:20:13

thing is, you know, the news

1:20:15

sort of was matter of factly,

1:20:17

like, if you're a person whose

1:20:19

vote is being challenged, here's how

1:20:21

you can find out, right? But

1:20:24

it puts the onus on the

1:20:26

voter to your point, right? And

1:20:28

I think most people, if they

1:20:30

voted in this race, voted in

1:20:32

this race and like kept it

1:20:34

pushing. And so I think it'll

1:20:36

be interesting to see who takes

1:20:38

a proactive position, like what the

1:20:40

work, particularly in a state like

1:20:42

North Carolina. the party has done

1:20:44

to contact voters, right? And to

1:20:46

say like, hey, you need to

1:20:48

verify this. I think this is

1:20:50

another example of like where the

1:20:53

Democrats having, having abandoned building real

1:20:55

party infrastructure in a state comes

1:20:57

back to bite us in the

1:20:59

ass, right? Because it's like, the

1:21:01

party should be out here saying

1:21:03

like, hey, you might need to

1:21:05

do extra Y or Z to

1:21:07

make sure that your vote is

1:21:09

counted and that should not fall

1:21:11

on the candidate in their campaign

1:21:13

and their campaign to do that

1:21:15

they don't have the capacity or

1:21:17

the or the resources. I also

1:21:19

just think that when we earlier

1:21:22

were talking about like leadership pipelines

1:21:24

and who is ready to take

1:21:26

on the next phase of leadership,

1:21:28

Dems haven't figured that out on

1:21:30

the courts either, and Republicans have

1:21:32

been playing the long game there,

1:21:34

right? And so I think we

1:21:36

have abandoned, particularly in southern states.

1:21:38

significant party and political leadership positions

1:21:40

and have just sort of said

1:21:42

like we're never going to win

1:21:44

there so like let the Republicans

1:21:46

have it and this is another

1:21:48

example where it comes back to

1:21:51

bias in the ass it'll be

1:21:53

fascinating to watch how this plays

1:21:55

out because it's so clearly about

1:21:57

trying to overturn the will of

1:21:59

the people of North Carolina that

1:22:01

I I wonder and maybe they

1:22:03

just don't feel like they need

1:22:05

to pretend anything else anymore, right?

1:22:07

But it's not just an administrative

1:22:09

thing, which is I think how

1:22:11

local news is covering it right

1:22:13

now. I think we have to

1:22:15

figure out how to name for

1:22:17

people. This is about, again, overturning

1:22:20

the will of the people of

1:22:22

North Carolina, and regardless of where

1:22:24

you stand, you know, the United

1:22:26

States does have secure elections, despite

1:22:28

all of our conspiracy theories, a

1:22:30

few episodes ago about the presidential

1:22:32

election, and like y'all have to

1:22:34

understand. that what these people are

1:22:36

trying to do is to hoard

1:22:38

power so that you never have

1:22:40

another say in anything that is

1:22:42

of any consequence in your life

1:22:44

ever again. You know, the North

1:22:46

Carolina Supreme Court is seven people.

1:22:49

All the two of them are

1:22:51

Republicans, so they are trying to

1:22:53

clear the House on this one.

1:22:56

Well, that's it. Thanks so much for

1:22:58

tuning in to Ponzi of the People

1:23:00

this week. Tell your friends to check

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1:23:09

we'll see you next week. Ponzi of

1:23:11

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