0:02

Hey, this is Dore, and we're going to

0:05

possibly the people on this episode. It's

0:07

me and Miles talking about the news

0:09

that you probably didn't hear with regard

0:12

to race, justice, and equity from the

0:14

past week. And then we highlight one

0:16

more author from our 2025 Blackest Book

0:19

Club reading list in collaboration with Reconstruction

0:21

and Camping Zero. And then Kai sits

0:23

down with the one and only Michael

0:25

Harriet to talk about his book, Black

0:28

A.F. History, The Unwhite Wash Story of

0:30

America. Download the full Blackest Book Club

0:32

reading list today. Here we go. As

0:35

Black History Month comes to a close,

0:37

Vote Save America's continuous commitment to

0:39

progress by supporting black light

0:41

organizations and candidates of color

0:44

through our anxiety relief program.

0:46

One candidate is Kimberly Pope

0:48

Adams. She's running for a

0:50

Virginia State House seat this

0:52

year, a critical opportunity to

0:55

expand a Democrat's slim one-seat

0:57

majority. Your recurring donation in

0:59

any amount helps build progressive

1:01

power for 2025 and beyond.

1:03

Join us and make an

1:06

impact at Vote Save america.com,

1:08

such as Vote Save america.com.

1:10

Not endorsed by any candidate

1:13

or candidates committee. Hey

1:18

everybody, we are excited to be

1:20

back. Unfortunately, this is another big

1:22

week of wild things happening in

1:24

the federal government, but there are

1:26

some other good things happening in

1:28

the world. It is me and

1:30

Miles today, but you will hear

1:33

Kaya because she has an incredible

1:35

interview coming up after the news.

1:37

But this is This

1:41

is Myles E. Johnson at Farrell

1:43

Rapture on Instagram. So

1:46

Miles, let's just jump right into

1:48

it. It's been a lot going

1:50

on. I almost don't want to

1:53

start with the Trump stuff. It's

1:55

been a really slow news week.

1:57

Like nothing going on. No, no,

1:59

they, the CIA. purging people. That

2:02

was sarcasm. That was like, wow,

2:04

what world are you in? I'm

2:06

sorry, you have, you have, you,

2:09

you're, you just got off a

2:11

long flight. So that was sarcasm,

2:13

sarcasm, sarcasm. Okay, let's start with

2:16

the Kennedy Center. So if you

2:18

did not see Donald Trump has

2:20

made himself the chair of the

2:23

Kennedy Center board, he also purged

2:25

some people off the board. We

2:27

know that Sean Naraim, she resigned,

2:29

Easter Ray would not have her.

2:32

She'll be there in recently the

2:34

Kennedy Center has announced that they

2:36

are experiencing a 50% drop in

2:39

tickets after Trump appointed himself and

2:41

it's like you know what? People

2:43

shouldn't go back there. But it

2:46

just all seems like one big

2:48

mockery of just everything. Art, culture,

2:50

the black history month thing at

2:52

the White House just seemed like

2:55

a farce too. Kodak Black is

2:57

the White House official White House

2:59

is posting Kodak black looking out

3:02

the window and making faces. And

3:04

you're just like, what is going

3:06

on? Yeah. If we're being honest.

3:09

I found the Obama era stuff

3:11

just as much as the farce.

3:13

I found that just as strange

3:16

to see. Not just a strange,

3:18

not just. I found it just

3:20

as strange. Okay. I found it

3:22

just a stream. And more than

3:25

just as strange, just as manufactured.

3:27

That was kind of like my

3:29

first, it was the Obama stuff

3:32

where I first started recognizing. how

3:34

people were going to the White

3:36

House because it wasn't really cool

3:39

to go to the, or let

3:41

me put it this way, it

3:43

wasn't in the realm of cool

3:46

in my world to go to

3:48

the White House and like that

3:50

be aspirational, but it was during

3:52

the Obama era where I found

3:55

more people wanting to go to

3:57

the White House, friends as I

3:59

kind of went into different spaces,

4:02

wanted to go to the White

4:04

House, but then also celebrity. artists

4:06

wanted to be associated with the

4:09

president where that just was not

4:11

cool during the Bush era, which

4:13

is my coming of age era.

4:16

So, but looking at it and

4:18

then seeing people and rappers who

4:20

I know had deeply political errors

4:22

and deeply anti-colonial errors or people

4:25

who were pro. gay in Obama

4:27

was, you know, anti-gay for a

4:29

lot of his, for a lot

4:32

of his tenure, specifically when he

4:34

was trying to get elected, wanting

4:36

proximity towards it. It felt just,

4:39

that was when I first noticed,

4:41

oh, this White House stuff is

4:43

public performance, and I never consider

4:45

it that way. But what about

4:48

the Kennedy Center stuff? Yeah, I

4:50

don't, I don't think that that

4:52

here. I don't think I care

4:55

about the Kennedy Center stuff. I

4:57

think what I'm most concerned about

4:59

is how this stuff and how

5:02

the DUI stuff is used to

5:04

capture our attention on things that

5:06

don't. necessarily affect your average black

5:09

person. So what I'm noticing is

5:11

like a pattern to maybe use

5:13

celebrities or public artists or public

5:15

moments to disrespect black people to

5:18

agitate black people where It

5:21

doesn't matter what Shonda Roms or

5:23

Issa Ray is or is not

5:25

doing to the average black person.

5:27

And I think that these moments

5:29

are kind of used to just

5:31

to get us kind of riled

5:34

up. And that's the thing that

5:36

I'm hoping that more people wake

5:38

up to is that, you know,

5:40

as hard as it might be

5:42

to maybe elevate the conversation or

5:44

evade certain conversations because they're poking

5:46

at you, that certain conversations are

5:48

designed to poke at you. Because

5:50

if you're talking about. maybe the

5:52

higher risk things that Trump is

5:54

doing. So that's how I've been

5:57

taking myself. I don't know. I

5:59

didn't think you said that only

6:01

because you have made the point.

6:03

before on the podcast and many

6:05

times that the, that sometimes we

6:07

do a disservice to the, to

6:09

the overall work by not understanding

6:11

the relevance that culture has in

6:13

manufacturing political conditions, right? So I

6:15

think about the Kennedy Center, I'm

6:17

actually interested in what happens when

6:20

like, you know, culturally we will

6:22

just wipe out anything that is

6:24

not white art from major venues.

6:26

Kodak Black on the Instagram of

6:28

the White House feels like. distraction

6:30

to me, but all of a

6:32

sudden making something like the Kennedy

6:34

Center honors or making the Kennedy

6:36

Center, which is such a big

6:38

venue, like two separate things. I

6:40

do not care about the Kennedy

6:43

Center. I do not care about

6:45

the Kennedy Center honors. I don't

6:47

agree with hierarchical evaluations of art

6:49

or of culture, and I think

6:51

that that has been a thing

6:53

that has like gutted the integrity

6:55

of black art. in America. So

6:57

I abolish it all, if I'm

6:59

honest with you. But the thing

7:01

that I was kind of coming

7:03

into was me speaking as somebody

7:06

who's here. on what's today's date,

7:08

February 23rd, 2025. So my tactic

7:10

this week, it probably is different

7:12

than what it would have been,

7:14

let's say, in October. What I'm

7:16

saying now is, there's so much

7:18

coming at us all at once,

7:20

and then if we're talking about

7:22

D.I., and then we're talking about

7:24

D.I., and then we're talking about

7:26

the Kennedy honors, what ends up

7:29

happening is that we're always kind

7:31

of. talking about these different things

7:33

that kind of agitate us because

7:35

of our paracocial relationship with celebrity

7:37

and with culture and with art,

7:39

which is beautiful, but right now

7:41

we have other, it just feels

7:43

like that may not be the

7:45

best use of our attention, our

7:47

focus right now because there's so

7:49

many things coming out as at

7:52

once. I wish that we were

7:54

in a space where that could

7:56

be the whole conversation, but it's

7:58

beautiful. just aren't. Chopin stands are

8:00

going to have to be. What

8:02

are the big things to you?

8:04

Is it the firey? Is it

8:06

the... No. I think well... I

8:08

think the firing is the big

8:10

things for me because I think

8:12

so many black people have federal

8:15

jobs. And also so many black

8:17

people who are in the middle

8:19

class are having federal jobs. And

8:21

depending on how this all goes,

8:23

you're going to start seeing even

8:25

more black people who maybe were

8:27

that paycheck or that year away

8:29

from their own financial ruin. That's

8:31

going to start actualizing. So you're

8:33

going to see black people were

8:35

already as black people in a

8:37

growing population. There's a growing poverty

8:40

class in black America, period. There's

8:42

a stat that shows that black

8:44

people uniquely, if you were born

8:46

out of poverty or middle class

8:48

or upper middle class as a

8:50

black person, you're more likely to

8:52

return to poverty class in your

8:54

lifetime as a black person. So

8:56

we're going to be seeing that.

8:58

So that scares me. But then

9:00

yes, and then the real economic

9:03

things, I'm just kind of waiting

9:05

and seeing about the real economic

9:07

things as far as Medicare, food

9:09

stamps, these are things that, social,

9:11

yeah, I mean, social security, these

9:13

are the things that I'm waiting

9:15

to see how it comes out

9:17

in the watch, the other thing

9:19

that I'm waiting to see because

9:21

that's five thousand dollar comment or

9:23

that thing. Trump and Elon hinted

9:26

at there being some type of

9:28

$5,000 refund to the tax paying

9:30

American for all the things that

9:32

they cut from those. So, those

9:34

went in and slashed all these

9:36

programs, and now that gave so

9:38

much surplus of money that they're

9:40

going to be able to give

9:42

$5,000 to each American. And everybody

9:44

says you can't do that and

9:46

I'm sure people who are the

9:49

same economics who are trying to

9:51

talk to the American people to

9:53

not get Trump voted or saying

9:55

that he can't do that but

9:57

Trump just doesn't seem to be

9:59

somebody who Um, where that works

10:01

on, so I'm, and if you're

10:03

plugged into this many billionaires and

10:05

Elon, then it's like, I think

10:07

you could, I think you could

10:09

ask for some favors specifically if

10:12

that is to pacify a public

10:14

whose rights and systems are being,

10:16

you know, gutted and you get

10:18

the $5,000. That's what, if that's

10:20

what helped it, that's what worked

10:22

for COVID is that. So if

10:24

Trump. has a chance to give

10:26

even more poor people $5,000 with

10:28

his name on it, like that

10:30

scares me. Do you think it'll,

10:32

you know, I heard that too.

10:35

I don't know how long this

10:37

lasts. I don't, and part of

10:39

me, the 5K I think would

10:41

be a thing, but I just

10:43

don't think it'll come out in

10:45

the wash in the sense of

10:47

like. 5K and you being unemployed,

10:49

homeless and no health care won't

10:51

feel like anything for very long.

10:53

And even the layoffs or the

10:55

firings of the federal government felt

10:58

pretty distant to me until I

11:00

know some people in my life

11:02

who suddenly are unemployed. And like,

11:04

you know, they were just a

11:06

couple paychecks away and now they're

11:08

trying to figure out what they're

11:10

going to do and a 5K

11:12

check will do not a thing

11:14

for them if they have to

11:16

move. You know, like it is,

11:18

I'm interested to see what happens

11:21

with the aggregate of all these

11:23

pretty wild decisions and I'll tell

11:25

you I just flew back from

11:27

London and I'm on a plant

11:29

I'm like not nervous to fly

11:31

there I'm like the London people

11:33

they feel their FAA is fine

11:35

I'm nervous to come back I'm

11:37

just like goodness gracious you are

11:39

still literally laying off FAA workers

11:41

and I just don't know and

11:44

granted they're not flying commercial so

11:46

they don't care but I just

11:48

a part of me doesn't know

11:50

how long the tear-down strategy last

11:52

like I just Like at a

11:54

point you will fire like this

11:56

will start people will start feeling

11:58

this in a really personal way

12:00

soon enough in a way that

12:02

poor people feeling you know Head

12:04

Star is Head Star money has

12:07

been frozen the food pantry money

12:09

has been frozen so like people

12:11

are feeling it in some ways

12:13

but I just don't know how

12:15

long this last you know and

12:17

they didn't realize it was tax

12:19

season laid off 6,000 IRS people

12:21

I'm like when this feels like

12:23

it's gonna happen is that they're

12:25

gonna make a crazy deficit like

12:27

an insane deficit and then leave

12:30

and whoever comes next it's gonna

12:32

be a nightmare if there is

12:34

a next. Perhaps I'm just a

12:36

little bit more cynical about their

12:38

about their plans. I'm really cynical

12:40

about Trump's election, the legitimacy of

12:42

it. I'm cynical about there being

12:44

any, I'm cynical about somebody being

12:46

able to go through all of

12:48

our data and who had access

12:50

to our voting mechanisms and Now

12:53

we do have somebody who can

12:55

just decide what he wants. So

12:57

I'm just, if you can manufacture

12:59

consent through technology, you know, then

13:01

it's like you could do whatever

13:03

you want to do. And people

13:05

can yell as long as they

13:07

want to and as loud as

13:09

they want to, but what are

13:11

you going to do specifically if

13:13

you can turn, you know, 1,000

13:16

volts into 1 million if it's

13:18

your prerogative. Is there a voice

13:20

from the left that you are

13:22

like a political leader that you're

13:24

like, wow, you really are standing

13:26

up to him? Who's living? Standing

13:28

up to Trump, yeah. Or is

13:30

it, or is that even a

13:32

thing? Like is that what you

13:34

expect of the of the politicians

13:36

to challenge him or to, I

13:39

don't know. Oh, did you see

13:41

the exchange with the governor of

13:43

Maine? The NCAA has complied immediately,

13:45

by the way, that's good, but

13:47

I understand Maine. Is the main

13:49

here the governor of Maine? Are

13:51

you not going to comply with

13:53

it? I'm complying with state and

13:55

federal laws. Well, we are the

13:57

federal law. Well, you better do

13:59

it. You better do it because

14:02

you're not going to get any

14:04

federal funding at all if you

14:06

don't. And by the way, your

14:08

population, even though it's somewhat liberal,

14:10

although I did very well there,

14:12

your population doesn't want men playing

14:14

in women sports. So you better

14:16

comply because otherwise you're not getting

14:18

any federal funding. Every state, good,

14:20

I'll see you in court. I

14:22

look forward to that. That should

14:25

be a real easy one. And

14:27

enjoy your life after governor, because

14:29

I don't think you'll be an

14:31

elected politics. And I think maybe

14:33

the last episode I was kind

14:35

of pushed on this too around

14:37

me just feeling this feeling of

14:39

kind of political depression specifically among

14:41

black folks and poor black folks

14:43

younger black folks and just the

14:45

people I've been in community with

14:48

and people I'm not being community

14:50

with just like just you know

14:52

like kind of random talks and

14:54

I felt kind of legitimized when

14:56

I saw a whole lot of

14:58

articles come out, talk about the

15:00

lack of black people at these

15:02

protests, and I think I see

15:04

so much of this. Push

15:07

back on Trump that's public from

15:09

all people not just the governor

15:11

remained but a lot of different

15:13

people as So so so little

15:15

so so so late and it

15:17

just doesn't move me and it's

15:20

hard and it is If you

15:22

told me this came from 2017

15:24

I wouldn't know if it came

15:26

from yesterday I wouldn't know so

15:28

I think that Palestine was a

15:30

leading reason why people didn't show

15:32

up to these to vote and

15:34

I think that all this other

15:36

stuff that's going around and all

15:38

this other stuff that is being

15:40

shown to kind of to attract

15:42

people into into more emotional response

15:45

is just it's just empty. Hey

15:47

you're listening to Potsy of the

15:49

People. Stay tuned there's more to

15:51

come. This show is sponsored by

15:53

Better Help. Now, what are some

15:55

of the relationship green flags? You

15:57

hear a lot about red flags

15:59

and things that you should avoid,

16:01

but we don't talk enough about

16:03

what are the green flags in

16:05

friendships and partners, just generally in

16:07

relationships. And if you're not sure

16:10

what they look like, that's. That's

16:12

how therapy can actually be helpful

16:14

too. In talking things out and

16:16

being like, what are you trying

16:18

to attract in your life? What

16:20

do you want to be around?

16:22

We gotta talk about that stuff

16:24

too. What kind of green flags

16:26

do I hope people experience when

16:28

they meet me? Whether you're dating,

16:30

married, building a friendship, or just

16:32

working yourself, it's time to be

16:35

more intentional about the relationships that

16:37

you build. Now therapy has been

16:39

a game changer for me. It's

16:41

been so powerful to have somebody

16:43

not in my day-to-day life that

16:45

I can talk to and process

16:47

things with and I would recommend

16:49

it for you too. And that's

16:51

where better help comes in. Better

16:53

help is fully online and makes

16:55

therapy affordable and convenient and serves

16:57

over 5 million people worldwide. And

17:00

you get to access a diverse

17:02

network of more than 30,000 credential

17:04

therapists with a wide range of

17:06

specialties and you can easily switch

17:08

therapists anytime in no extra cost.

17:10

Discover your relationship green flags with

17:12

better help. Visit better help.com sash

17:14

people to get 10% off your

17:16

first month. That's better help help.com

17:18

sash people. As a business As

17:21

a business owner, you wear a lot

17:24

of hats. One minute you're ordering

17:26

today's inventory, and the next you're

17:28

planning tomorrow's expansion. It's complicated.

17:30

But your business credit card should

17:32

be simple. With the Signify Business

17:34

Cash Card by Wells Fargo, you

17:37

earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on

17:39

purchases for your business, with no

17:41

caps or categories to track. Signify

17:43

Business Cash, the deliberately simple business

17:46

credit card. Learn more at Wells

17:48

fargo.com/Signify, terms apply. So

18:04

something I do deeply care about which

18:06

is um health care in Luigi Did

18:08

you see the tweet Doree that says

18:10

Luigi's lawyer says she was learning about

18:13

his case from an HBO documentary because

18:15

the police won't share the evidence They

18:17

claim to have but they're sharing it

18:20

on HBO. They're working to make sure

18:22

he doesn't get a fair trial and

18:24

I feel like the focus should be

18:26

more on this than his look So

18:29

this was a response to somebody posting

18:31

a gorgeous headshot of a Luigi One

18:33

of the things the lawyer revealed is

18:35

that they have all this evidence, but

18:38

HBO has this, and they don't, which

18:40

is showing that, oh, they're trying to

18:42

sway public attention. How do you feel

18:44

about that? And I don't know. Do

18:47

you think that this story is going

18:49

to be able to even swim with

18:51

the current news cycle and how like

18:54

the news is right now? Oh, that

18:56

it comes like, you know, I don't,

18:58

I think that they really overplayed their

19:00

hand. I think they thought he was

19:03

going to be like this. scoundrel and

19:05

pure and be like cold blood and

19:07

murderer and then that didn't happen and

19:09

I think there's no way he gets

19:12

convicted like I I think that they're

19:14

gonna try and work every angle to

19:16

force him into a plea deal like

19:18

that's what this seems like like that's

19:21

why you withhold the information to be

19:23

like I got it the moment we

19:25

show the jury they're gonna convict you

19:28

like I just don't think this is

19:30

going to trial I think there's no

19:32

way he gets convicted at trial that's

19:34

what I'm trying to say yeah yeah

19:37

I'm just like curious about what it

19:39

like what it means you don't think

19:41

it'll get in the air in the

19:43

like you like the government stuff is

19:46

too crazy that this just won't cut

19:48

again um I don't think I'm hoping

19:50

not my like my gut is saying

19:53

that you know once everything gets its

19:55

motion people will start carrying my my

19:57

My bigger hope that might just be

19:59

fantasy is that Luigi is really good.

20:02

Luigi and Luigi's lawyers are really good

20:04

articulating. So

20:06

I have to be honest

20:08

with you, I was looking

20:10

for a courtroom fantasy. So

20:13

I did want to see

20:15

Luigi talk, articulate frustrations about

20:17

health care and about billionaire

20:20

money and even the donation

20:22

for $30,000 that went viral,

20:24

which was from a person

20:26

who named themselves to be

20:29

independently wealthy, understood the energy

20:31

around Luigi. Let's just say

20:33

that. I really am excited

20:35

about that because I've just

20:38

been hungry to see a

20:40

conversation around class that feels

20:42

deep enough and this feels

20:45

deep enough because it is

20:47

wrapped up in that crime

20:49

and it felt like it

20:51

was keeping people's attention and

20:54

it feels like nothing else

20:56

specifically in the last 10

20:58

years has really captured people

21:00

around class and this felt

21:03

like a Like a

21:05

silver bullet. So I'm like, ugh,

21:07

I don't want it to just

21:09

float away. And it was like

21:11

all races, all like it wasn't

21:14

like, you know, it was like,

21:16

he very quickly became sort of

21:18

somebody that people across coalition lines

21:20

that don't normally all reach the

21:22

same conclusion. People were like, yeah,

21:24

this doesn't really make a lot

21:27

of sense. Did you see? I

21:29

was literally at dinner yesterday when

21:31

I got the alert on my

21:33

phone about joy. Joy Reed show

21:35

being canceled and I was frankly

21:37

really surprised because you know she's

21:40

been on she's been on MS

21:42

NBC for a long time she's

21:44

had a solid show it's a

21:46

consistent listener base it might not

21:48

be as high as some other

21:50

shows but to say to suggest

21:52

that Joy's not like a real

21:55

presence in MS NBC it would

21:57

just be untrue. I mean people

21:59

have a lot of theories about

22:01

it there's some organizing happening to

22:03

And as you know, Rashido, who

22:05

was the president of him, Ms.

22:08

NBC, Black Woman, she stepped down.

22:10

There's a new guide in SMBC.

22:12

So they're replacing, I don't know

22:14

if you saw this, they're replacing

22:16

her show, which is a 7

22:18

o'clock spot, with the panel show

22:21

that now is on the weekends,

22:23

with Simone, Michael Steele, and Alicia

22:25

Menendez. And Chris has a show,

22:27

I think still, he still has

22:29

his show, and Ari Melber still

22:31

has a show, but I was

22:34

surprised that, um, that Joy will,

22:36

and Sharpton sells a show, that

22:38

Joy will be off air. What,

22:40

what did, what did you think

22:42

of that? Yeah, I feel like

22:44

I wasn't as much as a

22:47

regular MSBC watcher. So I think

22:49

seeing the, the trends for legacy

22:51

media, that, The news on his

22:53

face didn't surprise me. I was

22:55

like, yeah, I'm sure 10,000 other

22:57

people about to come down the

23:00

pipeline who getting fired too. You

23:02

know, and I'm sure they're shrinking,

23:04

they're continuously shrinking until everybody will

23:06

eventually get fired. But then, thankfully,

23:08

because of the news and because

23:10

I knew you were going to

23:13

bring this up, I kind of

23:15

went into my own little research

23:17

rabbit hole because the last person

23:19

who really capture my attention who

23:21

was associated with MS&BC was Melissa

23:23

H. Perry. And I liked the

23:26

talk that she had with Bell

23:28

Hooks and during in that talk

23:30

right before she had got fired

23:32

she speaks about how the only

23:34

reason she's able to articulate these

23:36

things on television is because a

23:39

white man said that she couldn't

23:41

articulate these things and I didn't

23:43

realize that Joy Reed was her

23:45

like direct replacement after she got

23:47

fired. So I thought that was

23:49

really interesting in other times where

23:52

Again, that kind of era of,

23:54

you know, an age group of

23:56

black people, she had her own...

23:58

homophobia that came to light as

24:00

well. That was my other interaction

24:02

with Joy Reed and her work

24:05

with saying all that, I was

24:07

like, but what was it? I

24:09

was like, it's not the homophobia.

24:11

It was not, I was looking

24:13

at what she was saying. And

24:15

I was like, I don't really

24:17

think it's the anti- Trump stuff.

24:20

I really don't. And then I

24:22

see that she was one of

24:24

the. Very few people to call

24:26

what was happening in Palestine a

24:28

genocide. She was one of the

24:30

very few people to articulate what

24:33

was happening in God's eyes wrong

24:35

and I think that

24:37

we would be missing the whole

24:39

point if we don't see the

24:41

connective tissue, no matter how you

24:43

feel about these individual people. But

24:45

Amanda Seals had Zionists come to

24:47

her show and say she couldn't

24:49

do it in Philadelphia and got

24:51

her show canceled. Brianna Joy Gray

24:53

has articulated that what got her

24:55

fired from the hill was, was,

24:57

was, was Zionism. And now we

24:59

see this black woman who was

25:01

on television. speaking true to power

25:03

about what was happening in Palestine

25:05

and we see her a race

25:07

too so I do think there's

25:09

a pattern here and just to

25:11

be clear the only reason I

25:14

brought up her homophobia in this

25:16

scenario is because I was trying

25:18

to search for like what was

25:20

the thing that pushed her out

25:22

outside of like let's say Simone

25:24

or something because I just don't

25:26

know and I'll and that's why

25:28

I want to bring that up

25:30

but I think everybody can like

25:32

grow and move beyond certain ideas

25:34

and stuff like that. I just

25:36

had to be honest about what

25:38

I was finding. So those are

25:40

my first looks and I think

25:42

us not naming that is a

25:44

little bit dangerous too, like not

25:46

naming the pattern. And I think,

25:48

yeah, I think us seeing that

25:50

pattern of Zionism and speaking out

25:52

against Zionism and for Palestinian folks

25:54

is leading to people's erasure from

25:56

the media. I think that is

25:58

a. important pattern to articulate too,

26:00

and to see, and to see,

26:02

and to see happening, because it's

26:04

not just opinionated black women leaves

26:06

for no reason. They didn't give

26:08

any official reasons, but I think

26:11

about like Don, Don losing his

26:13

show, I think about Joy losing

26:15

her show, I'll be interested to

26:17

see what she does next. And,

26:19

you know, like, who is black

26:21

on, it's like, Abby is on

26:23

CNN, I literally don't know who's

26:25

on Fox, so I don't know

26:27

if there's a black person on

26:29

the Fox network at all. Sharpt

26:31

in isn't ever so busy. Is

26:33

there anybody else? Hey, you're listening

26:35

to Potsy of the People. Stay

26:37

tuned, there's more to come. Potsy

26:39

of the People. Potsy of the

26:41

People is brought to you by

26:43

ZBiotics. Sugar of Fiber. Okay, now,

26:45

if you follow me online, you

26:47

probably know that I have been

26:49

heavily into the gym recently. It's

26:51

been a place for me to

26:53

just... Be in a good healthy

26:55

space and in that journey I've

26:57

been trying to figure out the

26:59

things that I need to take

27:01

or drink or eat to be

27:03

the healthiest and that's where Zebiotics

27:06

sugar fiber comes in is that

27:08

I realize that I don't get

27:10

enough fiber I realize too that

27:12

like no diet is like perfectly

27:14

balanced that you know either I

27:16

feel like I'm eating too much

27:18

or not enough and that's actually

27:20

where the sugar of fiber probiotic

27:22

mix came in. And now it's

27:24

a part of my daily routine.

27:26

Being really conscious of the food

27:28

you eat, sometimes you just, it

27:30

gets stressful and I don't want

27:32

to be stressed when I think

27:34

about what to eat. And here's

27:36

the thing, extra sugar is found

27:38

in so many foods and that's

27:40

why the sugar to fiber mix

27:42

is really helpful because it helps

27:44

me actually get to the fiber

27:46

intake that I need to take

27:48

every day. Now here's the thing.

27:50

The PhD microbiologist over Zebiotics understood

27:52

that extra sugar is all but

27:54

impossible to avoid these days. And

27:56

95% of Americans don't get on

27:58

a fiber. I am in that

28:00

95%. So they genetically engineered a

28:03

probiotic to convert some extra sugar

28:05

from our everyday diet into a

28:07

prebiotic fiber called leban. And this

28:09

leads to more balanced microbiome, which

28:11

is a key to healthy gut.

28:13

One stick pack of sugar to

28:15

fiber and you get a daily

28:17

dose of fiber from the foods

28:19

you already eat. That's what's so

28:21

great about this is that. Here's

28:23

my routine. When I have lunch,

28:25

I get some water, get some

28:27

sugar to fiber. It works every

28:29

day. It is simple, tastes good,

28:31

and I don't really need to

28:33

change anything about my diet. I

28:35

like to know where my fiber

28:37

is coming from, and because it

28:39

is converting that extra sugar to

28:41

fiber, I got it. It has

28:43

allowed me to not stress out

28:45

over making sure that I have

28:47

the appropriate fiber intake in taking

28:49

a given day. And it's simple.

28:51

In 2025, I'm prioritizing my health

28:53

and my microbiome. Sugar to fiber

28:55

is my daily insurance that I'm

28:58

getting enough fiber. Go to zbiotics.com,

29:00

slash PSTP, and use PSTP at

29:02

checkout for 15% off any first-time

29:04

orders of zbiotics, probiotics. Zebotics has

29:06

100% money back guarantee, so if

29:08

you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll

29:10

refund your money. No questions asked.

29:12

Thank you zbiotics for sponsoring this

29:14

episode. This podcast is supported by

29:16

Comedy Central's Emmy Award winning series

29:18

The Daily Show. John Stewart and

29:20

the Daily Show news team are

29:22

covering every minute of every hour

29:24

of President Trump's second first 100

29:26

days in office with brand new

29:28

episodes every weeknight. From the lowest

29:30

lows to the highest lows and

29:32

everything in between. They'll be there

29:34

to break it all down. Comedy

29:36

Central's The Daily Show, new tonight

29:38

on Comedy Central and streaming next

29:40

day on Paramount Plus. What

29:54

I am curious about too

29:56

is how the punning class

29:58

does independent media. And then

30:00

I'm also just interested in,

30:02

I just think that. black

30:05

people and the less political

30:07

voice have been gutted. And

30:09

I think that people who

30:11

participated in being a part

30:13

of this kind of like

30:15

pundit class of people who

30:17

slowly but surely a lot

30:20

of their rhetoric became centered

30:22

around Trump or centered around

30:24

their own kind of like

30:26

Democratic Party interests have lost

30:28

a lot of the sway

30:30

they're gonna have with other

30:33

black people. So I'm hopeful.

30:36

But I'm also realistic because I'm

30:38

trying to see like where it's

30:40

just it would just be interesting

30:42

to see where Joy and read

30:44

who's not who's not Don Lemon

30:47

in a lot of ways where

30:49

she lands Specifically I'm thinking in

30:51

one or two years. I'm sure

30:53

the response to her immediately will

30:56

be great and it will be

30:58

big, but I'm fearful that her

31:00

dedicating so much time to something

31:02

that I feel like a lot

31:05

of black people were beginning to

31:07

ignore or tune out, it has

31:09

kind of left her with not

31:11

a whole lot of huge standing

31:13

with the greater black community who

31:16

I'm kind of like consistently worried

31:18

about. I'm concerned about. I always

31:20

remind you that she came up

31:22

through blogs. She was like an

31:25

OG, like I think she was

31:27

a homophobia was. Wasn't she the

31:29

Grio? She was the Grio. The

31:31

homophobia was on her personal website,

31:33

not on the GRIO. I don't

31:36

know where she was. Yeah, she

31:38

came up from one of those,

31:40

one of the, like she was

31:42

a blogger, so maybe she'll go

31:45

back to blogging, but it is,

31:47

it is, I am worried about

31:49

the lack of black voices on

31:51

network television, even if it is

31:53

not, the thing that is driving

31:56

most conversation, I do think voters

31:58

are watching it, and that is,

32:00

now we need to figure how

32:02

to be more not voting, MSNBC,

32:05

but the set of people I

32:07

think who are voting consistently are

32:09

watching it, which is why it

32:11

does matter. But let's go to

32:14

the news. So my news is

32:16

about the police, just because I

32:18

don't want people to, there is

32:20

so much wild stuff happening with

32:22

the federal government that I worry

32:25

that people are losing sight of

32:27

some of the local things that

32:29

are happening that are actually, you

32:31

know, important. And remember that their

32:34

19,000 police departments. Most people know

32:36

ICE right now because of what

32:38

Trump is doing, but most of

32:40

the regular police departments are in

32:42

communities. They are cities and towns

32:45

and states. So this is about

32:47

a small town in Alabama that

32:49

is the Hansville Police Chief. Jason

32:51

and four officers, they were indicted

32:54

by a grand jury. And the

32:56

entire police department is suspended for

32:58

a moment because of the indictment.

33:00

So a couple things came out,

33:02

but it looks like they just

33:05

were letting anybody go into the

33:07

evidence room, that there was rampant

33:09

corruption. Hensfeld only has 3,200 people,

33:11

and it's 45 miles north of

33:14

Birmingham. But they had pictures of

33:16

a hole in the wall. and

33:18

a broomstick that was used to

33:20

open the door to the evidence

33:23

room and people could literally just

33:25

do whatever they want. One of

33:27

the things that the grand jury

33:29

found was that their negligence led

33:31

to a 2024 death of a

33:34

dispatcher who overdosed at work. I

33:36

don't even know, you're like, the

33:38

logistics of that is wild. That's

33:40

just nuts. And that the police

33:43

were selling drugs. That is the

33:45

short version of what was going

33:47

on. And I have to imagine

33:49

they were probably using drugs too,

33:51

but they were selling them out

33:54

of the evidence room and it

33:56

looks like they have been temporarily

33:58

disbanded, which is a good thing.

34:00

and by disband there on administrative

34:03

leave. And we need more of

34:05

this. Now the only thing that

34:07

we gotta be careful about is

34:09

that we've seen this happen before

34:11

and then when a local, like

34:14

a town police department gets disbanded.

34:16

what normally happens is a sheriff's

34:18

department takes over or like some

34:20

other and they normally are no

34:23

they're not great either so so

34:25

that's not a good thing but

34:27

you we so rarely see accountability

34:29

for police in this way and

34:32

I'm actually happy that the grand

34:34

jury was and the prosecutor allowed

34:36

it because prosecutor has to convene

34:38

the grand jury was like I

34:40

want y'all to see this and

34:43

tell me what you think and

34:45

they were like it's not enough

34:47

just to fire or indict these

34:49

five people six people disband the

34:52

department That news read so wild

34:54

to me and like and you

34:56

can like direct you know I

34:58

was like trying to make sure

35:00

I was understanding specifically the finding

35:03

of the man like oldie I'm

35:05

like am I reading this correctly

35:07

that like this is this is

35:09

what was happening so um it's

35:12

it's weird because like like like

35:14

you know I'm a truly empathetic

35:16

compassionate person So part of me

35:18

is always like the police are

35:20

corrupt, right? And corruption lives inside

35:23

of the police because the police

35:25

system is built on corruption. That

35:27

is just something that I believe.

35:29

The twist in this story that

35:32

twisted my heart in a way

35:34

I didn't think it was going

35:36

to was the addiction piece. And

35:40

it was the like, I guess

35:42

like the, the, the, the, the,

35:44

the, the opioid crisis of it

35:47

all, me seeing the pictures of

35:49

the people, again, there's nothing in

35:51

me that's saying, oh, these people

35:54

are good people or these people

35:56

are people who don't deserve it,

35:59

but, but, I think it complicated

36:01

the, the, the, the, the, the,

36:03

the pursuit of power and the

36:06

sustaining of power through police force

36:08

when I added addiction to it.

36:10

When I think that, oh no,

36:13

these people are not only maybe

36:15

bent towards racism, right, or violent

36:17

racism, but also that's being fueled

36:20

by drug use. That's being fueled

36:22

by addiction. this just laid it

36:24

out in a way that felt

36:27

undeniable and other times it's kind

36:29

of always hinted at or maybe

36:32

suggested but this was clear that

36:34

I don't know these are the

36:36

same these are the same people

36:39

who are judging what to do

36:41

in a moment's notice when something

36:43

when something's happening that that scared

36:46

me and now the dispatcher you're

36:48

like we need the dispatchers to

36:50

be on it not using drugs

36:53

during dispatch. I was like, well,

36:55

that is just dangerous for everybody.

36:57

And when we think about the

37:00

police, you know, I'm not, I'm

37:02

not, I'm not a square when

37:05

it comes to when it comes

37:07

to drug or alcohol use. But

37:09

if there was an industry where

37:12

I'm like, no, don't even hit

37:14

a joint like we need you

37:16

clear. Yeah, it's the please and

37:19

all the employees inside. You're like

37:21

not the dispatch. Could you imagine

37:23

calling 911 and the dispatcher is

37:26

high? You're like, well, that's not

37:28

helpful. You didn't mean you're like

37:30

in a crisis. It's like that

37:33

is nuts. So that was my

37:35

news. I wanted just to use

37:38

my time to talk about and

37:40

think about Valletto Wallace. She passed

37:42

away. She is the mother of

37:45

The greatest rapper one of the

37:47

greatest wrappers depending on who you

37:49

are and what coast you are

37:52

usually the tour is BIG and

37:54

I Think how I've been reflecting

37:56

on Valletta Wallace since she's passed

37:59

is okay first thing is how

38:01

spooky is it that she passes?

38:03

And then like I think within

38:06

two hours I don't know which

38:08

came first this or the egg

38:11

but Diddy's lawyer drops everything and

38:13

says I can't do this case

38:15

anymore with Diddy like whatever's happening

38:18

in Diddy's file is so nasty

38:20

and so unwinnable that his lawyer

38:22

said I gotta go allegedly so

38:25

I thought that was interesting. And

38:27

that lawyer represented Osama bin Laden.

38:29

Okay, so I thought that way,

38:32

I thought it was just one

38:34

of those spooky, synchronistic moments that

38:36

Villetta Wallace had passed around that

38:39

announcement. But beyond that, when I

38:41

thought about Natori's BIG, I thought

38:44

about how she has been such

38:46

a good steward to his legacy.

38:48

And if I'm being honest with

38:51

you, as somebody who is obsessed

38:53

with Natori's BIG, me and my

38:55

boyfriend met on the anniversary March

38:58

9th of Ntor BIG's death. We've

39:00

had posters of notorious BIGs, like

39:02

my sister is a huge BIGs,

39:05

like, notorious BIGs fan, and if

39:07

I'm being honest, it was post

39:10

his death that he was able

39:12

to sit in our imaginations as

39:14

something to me. more prominent and

39:17

more dignified than when he was

39:19

living. And I think that has

39:21

so much to do with Valletta

39:24

Wallace. And I think how she

39:26

has kept him inside of our

39:28

imaginations and how she's helped with

39:31

keep those things in sight of

39:33

our imaginations has been really really

39:35

good. And I think it's something

39:38

when you're known because of something

39:40

bad happening to your son, you

39:43

know. And Just

39:46

even right before she passed away

39:48

she was saying how like she

39:51

wants to slap Ditty like she

39:53

would like you like like she

39:56

was Always comment commenting. She was

39:58

always being a good steward to

40:00

her to her son legacy and

40:03

I think that's really good work

40:05

and I think that's oftentimes feminized

40:08

work or work that's usually dawned

40:10

on women and I just wanted

40:12

to talk about it because

40:15

she is somebody for better or

40:17

for worse who made her whole

40:19

entire public life about her son

40:22

and I think that is usually

40:24

work given to women and I

40:27

just want to honor that she

40:29

did such a great job and

40:31

I think even I get the

40:34

numbers wrong but there was some

40:36

there was a million dollars I

40:39

don't know how I think a

40:41

couple of million dollars was his

40:43

value in the air quotes on

40:46

death, and now he has a

40:48

multi-million dollar legacy in the state

40:51

that he's like leaving behind, and

40:53

that is also because of those

40:55

good financial decisions, so not just

40:58

a cultural steward, but also a

41:00

financial economic one. So I wanted

41:03

just to bring her flowers and

41:05

say thank you to ancestor

41:07

Valletta Wallace. Thanks to bring this

41:09

up. I didn't know she was

41:12

a preschool teacher that made me

41:14

smile and and every and when

41:17

I see pictures her I'm like

41:19

I could see you you are

41:21

that like black woman in the

41:24

neighborhood who like raised five generations

41:26

of kids at that three to

41:29

four year old age and she

41:31

was 78 she lived a good

41:33

life she lived a long life

41:36

and Vicky has two remaining two

41:38

kids. and hopefully they are well

41:41

taken care of with his estate.

41:43

And you know I remember that

41:45

moment where Ms. Wallace and Tupac's

41:48

mom did that joint. They did

41:50

that joint thing at the award

41:53

show. Remember that? They did that,

41:55

so like that. Yeah, at the

41:57

MTV Music Awards. Yeah, and you're

42:00

right, she did say she wanted

42:02

to sleep today. I'm like, you

42:05

give, you give black mom bobs

42:07

up to the end. So I

42:09

really appreciate that. It is, it,

42:12

you know, this makes me think

42:14

too of like, just a generation

42:17

of people that, I don't know

42:19

if younger kids know, but like,

42:21

you know, you think about, I

42:24

don't know if you saw the

42:26

Wayans. The Way

42:28

his family get awarded at the

42:30

double ACP Awards. But I just

42:32

think about like that in-live-in-color era,

42:35

that whole like time period of

42:37

people are getting older and in

42:39

what will happen when that art

42:41

and those, the people who made

42:43

that art goes away. I'm really,

42:45

I don't know, I've been thinking

42:47

about that a lot, especially when

42:49

like, Erv Gandhi died, like, and

42:52

he was awful to Shanti, so

42:54

that is not great. Well, not

42:56

just a shawnti. That's all I

42:58

know. I only know the a

43:00

shawnti stuff. He was all up

43:02

to more people. Erbadi? Yeah. Yeah.

43:04

I just bring him up because

43:06

he was so young. He died

43:09

so young. You know, he was,

43:11

well, he was 50 something. Yeah,

43:13

and I think that he was

43:15

just on record talking about, like,

43:17

just having diabetes and then not.

43:19

taking care of himself and drinking

43:21

really hard and living really hard

43:23

and kind of having that effo.

43:26

So I watched too many Dame

43:28

Dash and Ervgadi interviews. So just

43:30

hearing how they talked about their

43:32

lifestyles, it wasn't that much of

43:34

a shocker because I was deep

43:36

in with Ervgadi. Do you think

43:38

that's indicative of that whole moment?

43:40

Like, do you think their outliers

43:42

or that was the moment? Like

43:45

the lifestyle choices? Yeah, I think

43:47

that's definitely the moment. I think

43:49

that's still the moment when you

43:51

look at the rappers who, I

43:53

mean, Future is our biggest rapper.

43:55

If you listen to what Drake

43:57

is doing, like I think that

43:59

a lot of, when it comes

44:02

to addiction in this living, Drake,

44:04

you only live once, you know.

44:06

I mean, like, Yolo, like, that

44:08

has been such a huge part

44:10

of hip-hop culture, specifically when it

44:12

met glamour. A member of Roxanne

44:14

Chante said something about hip-hop and

44:16

glamour and hip-hop fabulousness and said,

44:19

well, that really comes from the

44:21

fact that we'd ever stay for

44:23

a rainy day, so we just

44:25

spend on a really, really nice

44:27

umbrella, like that idea that we

44:29

don't necessarily... We aren't steering our

44:31

own future, so let's just spend

44:33

and be in hedonistic decadence today.

44:36

So I think that still is

44:38

very much so alive. Just with

44:40

worst talent, I think that's the

44:42

train. The train off. There we

44:44

go. Got it. Don't go anywhere.

44:46

More potting to people's coming. This

44:51

podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. Now

44:53

Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform

44:55

for entrepreneurs to stand out and

44:57

succeed on mine. Whether you're just

44:59

getting started... or you're managing your

45:01

growing brand. Squarespace makes it easy

45:03

to create beautiful websites, engage your

45:05

audience, and sell anything from products

45:07

to content to time, all in

45:09

my place, all in your terms.

45:11

And now there's design intelligence from

45:14

Squarespace, which combines two decades of

45:16

industry-leading design expertise with cutting-edge AI

45:18

technology to unlock your strongest creative

45:20

potential. Design intelligence also empowers anybody

45:22

to build a beautiful, more personalized

45:24

website tailored to your unique needs.

45:26

and can help you craft a

45:28

bespoke digital identity to use across

45:30

your online presence anywhere. And square

45:32

space payments is the easiest way

45:34

to manage your payments in one

45:37

place with square space. The onboarding

45:39

is fast and simple and you

45:41

can get started in just a

45:43

few clicks and start receiving payments

45:45

right away. Plus give your customers

45:47

more ways to pay with popular

45:49

payment methods like clarinet, ACH direct

45:51

debit, Apple pay after pay and

45:53

clear pay. And it allows you

45:55

to connect all your accounts and

45:57

a few clicks, your social accounts,

46:00

multimedia accounts, and you can connect

46:02

them as icons, direct links, or

46:04

embedded features. And you can build

46:06

visitor trusts while updating content only

46:08

when you need it and it

46:10

allows you to extend your brand's

46:12

footprint. And the cool thing is

46:14

that sellers can also sink their

46:16

product catalog directly with Instagram, Facebook,

46:18

YouTube, and Google to reach more

46:20

people. Head to squarespace.com for a

46:23

free trial and when you're ready

46:25

to launch go to squarespace.com/PSTP.com/PST. This

46:27

podcast is supported by Comedy Central's Emmy

46:30

Award winning series The Daily Show. John

46:32

Stewart and the Daily Show news team

46:34

are covering every minute of every hour

46:36

of President Trump's second first 100 days

46:38

in office with brand new episodes every

46:40

weeknight. From the lowest lows to the

46:42

highest lows and everything in between. They'll

46:44

be there to break it all down.

46:47

Comedy Central's The Daily Show, new tonight

46:49

on Comedy Central and streaming next day

46:51

on Paramount Plus. Hello

47:04

Pavsay the People family. It's

47:06

Kaya and I am so

47:08

excited about our guest today.

47:10

We have Michael Harriet with

47:13

us. Michael Harriet is an

47:15

award-winning journalist, best-selling author, celebrated

47:17

poet, and public historian who's

47:19

hailed as one of the

47:22

most eloquent writers in America.

47:24

His New York Times bestseller,

47:26

Black A.F History, the Unwhite

47:28

Wash story of America, is

47:30

required reading in at least.

47:33

10 universities have adopted his

47:35

race as an economic construct

47:37

curriculum, which examines social structures

47:39

using history data and the

47:42

laws of supply and demand.

47:44

Michael Harriet, you might know

47:46

him from the Gria, you

47:48

might know him from the

47:50

root. He influences everything from

47:53

presidential politics to pop culture.

47:55

He originated the phrase invited

47:57

to the cookout. He is

47:59

widely considered to be the

48:02

Dean of Black Twitter and

48:04

the Negro Explainer. He and

48:06

Farel created the award-winning Drape

48:08

Domaniac's Unshackled History podcast. And

48:11

his newest project is called

48:13

Contraband Camp. We're going to

48:15

get into that in a

48:17

few minutes. But Michael Harriet,

48:19

thank you so much for

48:22

coming on Pods Save the

48:24

People. Thank you for having me.

48:26

We are excited. So we're

48:28

here because every February we

48:31

do a feature called

48:33

the Blackest Book Club where

48:35

the four co-hosts of the

48:38

podcast pick books in

48:40

response to a few questions

48:42

that we want to share

48:45

with our listeners. And this

48:47

year, Black A.F. history was

48:49

the book that I chose to

48:52

respond to the question, what book

48:54

taught me something surprising about black

48:56

history and black culture? And

48:58

Michael, what you should know about

49:01

me is I am a longtime

49:03

educator who previously ran the public

49:05

school system in Washington DC, and

49:08

then left to start a curriculum

49:10

and technology company teaching black history

49:12

and black culture to young people.

49:14

So I know a lot about

49:17

black history, but when I read

49:19

this book, it changed my life.

49:21

And so that's why we're excited

49:24

to have you on the podcast.

49:26

We are going to jump right

49:28

in. And let me ask you, why did

49:30

you write this book? Well, it was

49:33

first, it was kind of not

49:35

my intent to write it. So

49:37

I used to teach a course

49:40

called race as an economic construct

49:42

that examined our race and culture

49:44

and culture in America through through

49:46

the lens of economics. And I

49:49

was going to write a book

49:51

about it and every publisher that

49:53

I worked to was like, yeah,

49:55

we love the proposal, but what

49:58

about that history thing? do

50:00

on Twitter. So the one

50:02

book deal became, so the

50:04

one book deal became a

50:06

two book deal and so

50:08

when I proposed the name

50:10

of the book they said

50:12

well you know it was

50:14

before you know people were

50:16

really coming at Black History

50:18

and all the stuff and

50:20

they said the people at

50:22

the publishing company said I

50:24

don't think people would be

50:26

interested in this obscure subject

50:28

that you're talking about, called

50:30

Critical Race Theory, because the

50:32

title of my book was

50:34

White Peapology toward a more

50:36

critical race theory. And no

50:38

one was talking about critical

50:40

race theory then. And so

50:42

they said, well, why not

50:44

do the history book first?

50:46

And so that's how Black

50:48

A.F History came to me.

50:50

Okay, and who's your intended

50:52

audience? Black people. I think

50:54

that we read books and

50:56

we have books that talk

50:58

about the history of black

51:00

people from a black perspective.

51:02

And we have books, of

51:04

course, that talk about America

51:07

from a white perspective. But

51:09

I wanted to do a

51:11

book that talks about the

51:13

idea of whiteness and the

51:15

idea of America from a

51:17

black perspective and the history

51:19

of whiteness in America from

51:21

a black perspective. And so

51:23

I wanted to talk to

51:25

people, black people about it

51:27

because that's always my intended

51:29

audience. And you know, I

51:31

look at it as if

51:33

you ever been in a

51:35

room. and like you feel

51:37

your feet getting cold or

51:39

you hear a sound and

51:41

nobody else feels it and

51:43

you're wondering like am I

51:45

crazy or do I feel

51:47

a draught or do I

51:49

hear something and it's sometimes

51:51

it feels like black people

51:53

are always feeling like am

51:55

I crazy do I feel

51:57

this racism and nobody else

51:59

has said anything about it.

52:01

So I wanted, so a

52:03

lot of times, that's how

52:05

I write, right, to let

52:07

black audiences know that you

52:09

ain't crazy. Like this world

52:11

is crazy, this country is

52:13

crazy, not you. That is

52:15

absolutely, I mean, that is

52:17

key to preserving our sanity,

52:19

right, because part of the

52:21

thing about racism is it

52:23

is supposed to drive you

52:25

crazy, which will distract you

52:27

and stop you from doing

52:29

your work. But your writing

52:31

style is not like a

52:33

regular historian. So tell me

52:35

like why you approach history

52:37

in this particular way. Like

52:39

when you're talking to black

52:41

people, which is what I

52:43

intended to do, you know

52:45

how we are right? Like

52:47

we could be at a

52:49

funeral and if somebody's got

52:51

on the wrong clothes or

52:53

wrong, why she wear that

52:56

hat? Why she wore an

52:58

Easter dress to my mom

53:00

a funeral? Right? We're gonna

53:02

make a joke about it,

53:04

right? Like sometimes we laugh

53:06

to keep from crying and

53:08

sometimes we laugh just to

53:10

laugh. And that's how I've

53:12

always written, you know, I

53:14

think every writer develops a

53:16

style and I don't. try

53:18

to inject humor into anything.

53:20

I just try, I don't

53:22

feel the need to take

53:24

it out or to avoid

53:26

it because I'm talking about

53:28

something serious. And that's how

53:30

my style revolves. And that's,

53:32

but that's not how historians

53:34

usually write. So somebody had

53:36

to give you permission or

53:38

make you feel like it

53:40

was okay to write kind

53:42

of the way we talk.

53:44

I don't know if it's

53:46

permission. I don't think I

53:48

ever like sought permission, but

53:50

I was homeschooled for the

53:52

first part of my education.

53:54

So the history I learned

53:56

part of the history I

53:58

learned was taught to me,

54:00

you know, by black people

54:02

through word of mouth. And

54:04

so When, you know, it

54:06

was only recently, when I

54:08

really started discovering like, oh,

54:10

that, like, black people really

54:12

believed this stuff that they

54:14

tell them in school, I

54:16

didn't realize, like, that people

54:18

learned about, you know, George

54:20

Washington and Thomas Jefferson being

54:22

noble heroes, and then like,

54:24

later on in life, they

54:26

learned that it was slave

54:28

masters. I thought that's how

54:30

you learned it. without like

54:32

a lot of the times

54:34

we I never really had

54:36

to undo the whitew washing.

54:38

I see I see that

54:40

homeschooling at the beginning is

54:42

it is liberatory right because

54:44

you are not taught with

54:47

the constructs that most other

54:49

people are taught with that

54:51

explains a lot. Okay so

54:53

what's one of your favorite

54:55

stories in the book? I

54:57

think everyone's favorite story in

54:59

the book is Forrest Joe.

55:01

Everybody loves Forrest Joe. So

55:03

if you're listening and haven't

55:06

read the book, Forrest Joe

55:08

was a man who unslaved

55:10

himself and basically wreaked havoc

55:12

on Georgia and South Carolina

55:14

in the early 1820s. And

55:16

the result, you know, it's

55:18

not just like an interesting

55:20

character. is the origin story

55:22

of America's first police force.

55:25

The first police force in

55:27

America was created to catch

55:29

this black dude who was,

55:31

you know, he, one of

55:33

the favorite things about him

55:35

is he went on to

55:37

the governor's plantation and just

55:39

started shooting at him and

55:41

told him like if I

55:44

see him in the streets,

55:46

you know, we're gonna have

55:48

it. And so I think

55:50

a lot of people love

55:52

Forrest Joe and many of

55:54

the stories that they hadn't

55:56

been taught. in classical American

55:58

history, if you will. So

56:00

what do you think Forest

56:03

Show means for people? Why

56:05

do people love Forest Show

56:07

so much? Because I think

56:09

that we think that, you

56:11

know, we, a few years

56:13

ago, that phrase started floating

56:15

around, I'm not my ancestors.

56:17

And I think that people

56:19

think we conceded or capitulated

56:22

to the oppression that we've

56:24

always experienced. and not that

56:26

we fought. They thought like

56:28

there was a period when

56:30

the Black Panthers were fighting

56:32

back and that's about it.

56:34

But the truth is, like,

56:36

that has always been the

56:38

way we survived and resisted.

56:41

And so I think that

56:43

is partly why. And I

56:45

think that like the idea

56:47

that we... tended to our

56:49

survival by scaring white folks

56:51

is also interesting too. I

56:53

love that. I absolutely love

56:55

that. One of the questions

56:57

that we ask in the

57:00

blackest book club is what

57:02

book do you think every

57:04

black kid should read and

57:06

why? And I want to

57:08

ask you that about your

57:10

stories besides Forrest Joe. If

57:12

every black kid in America

57:14

could read one Michael Harriet

57:16

story, either from the book

57:19

or from one of your

57:21

podcasts or whatever, what do

57:23

you think is the most

57:25

powerful story that we could

57:27

share with African-American young people?

57:29

I think one of my

57:31

favorite stories is the story

57:33

of, and I talk about

57:35

it a little in the

57:38

book, but I've written about

57:40

it elsewhere, is the story

57:42

of Moses Dixon. Moses Dixon

57:44

was a guy, he was

57:46

a barber, he was formerly

57:48

enslaved and was set himself

57:50

free and traveled on riverboats

57:52

cutting here throughout the South.

57:54

And every state, and he

57:57

eventually went to every state.

57:59

that had slavery and was

58:01

planning a national slave revolt.

58:03

And so one night he

58:05

and he had basically organizers

58:07

in every state that had

58:09

slavery, they gathered in a

58:11

room in St. Louis and

58:13

swore that they would never

58:16

stop until the slaves are

58:18

free. And they formed what

58:20

they call the, they formed

58:22

a group, basically what was

58:24

a fraternity. And those nights,

58:26

they call themselves nights, and

58:28

those nights eventually didn't start

58:30

their national slavery vote because

58:32

the Civil War had already

58:35

started and most of the

58:37

nights actually joined the union

58:39

forces. But the fraternity continued,

58:41

began accepting women and they

58:43

would give a penny a

58:45

week. And that's what built

58:47

the first black hospital in

58:49

Mount Bayou, Mississippi, where almost

58:51

everybody you know from the

58:53

civil rights movement was trained.

58:56

Fanny Luhamer, even Jesse Jackson.

58:58

And they hired a surgeon

59:00

to work at that hospital,

59:02

TRM Howard. And because of

59:04

TRM Howard, he basically created

59:06

his own police, armed police

59:08

force, and they protected the

59:10

black journalists who came to

59:12

investigate the story of Emet

59:15

Till, and that's how we

59:17

know what Emet Till, what

59:19

actually happened to Emet Till,

59:21

because, you know, a hundred

59:23

years earlier, a black man

59:25

tried to start a national

59:27

slavery vote. I love that.

59:29

How do you know all

59:31

of this stuff? Where are

59:34

you getting this from? Oh,

59:36

like, one, you pull threads.

59:38

I always go down rabbit.

59:40

I was like, when I

59:42

hear something, I say, well,

59:44

how did that happen? And

59:46

then how did that happen?

59:48

And then how did that

59:50

happen to eventually get to

59:53

the bottom? of the rabbit

59:55

hole. So it's just natural

59:57

curiosity and the natural desire

59:59

to rethink things. I think

1:00:01

that's where it comes from.

1:00:03

Why are we not more

1:00:05

curious as a people? Like

1:00:07

we have such a fascinating

1:00:09

history. you are helping to

1:00:12

illuminate. And I find when

1:00:14

I read these things, then

1:00:16

I go down the rabbit

1:00:18

hole as well. Why aren't

1:00:20

more, why aren't more of

1:00:22

our black teachers curious in

1:00:24

this way? Why aren't kids

1:00:26

more motivated? Now we have

1:00:28

information at our fingertips, right?

1:00:31

So why aren't we motivated

1:00:33

to figure out more of

1:00:35

our own history to tell

1:00:37

our own story? Because that

1:00:39

natural curiosity is not even

1:00:41

cultivated. As a matter of

1:00:43

fact, it's probably suppressed, right.

1:00:45

You can't be teach critical

1:00:47

thinking in natural curiosity and

1:00:50

also teach some of the

1:00:52

nonsense that we learn in

1:00:54

school, right? Not just not

1:00:56

even, not just in history,

1:00:58

but in all subjects, whether

1:01:00

it is like. I before

1:01:02

E except after C but

1:01:04

we're like why C so

1:01:06

special? And how about like

1:01:09

words like heist like that?

1:01:11

And you know it extends

1:01:13

to all I remember when

1:01:15

I was like a little

1:01:17

kid probably like seven or

1:01:19

eight years old and my

1:01:21

mom used to teach vacation

1:01:23

Bible school and my they

1:01:25

had like a math contest

1:01:28

and my sister won but

1:01:30

my mom like I without

1:01:32

the contest that like the

1:01:34

first round because I didn't

1:01:36

know my multiplication tables and

1:01:38

my mom was like embarrassed

1:01:40

that I didn't know my

1:01:42

multiplication tables is like you

1:01:44

don't you gonna learn your

1:01:47

multiplication tables and I was

1:01:49

eight years old right so

1:01:51

she didn't teach me my

1:01:53

multiplication tables you just told

1:01:55

me you better learn them

1:01:57

well if you're if you're

1:01:59

if you've never been taught

1:02:01

you multiplication tables, you don't

1:02:03

know that they end at

1:02:06

12, right? Like you learn

1:02:08

your multiplication state. So when

1:02:10

I started going to public

1:02:12

school, we used to have

1:02:14

this math test, a timed

1:02:16

math test every week, right?

1:02:18

And the time would increase,

1:02:20

the time would decrease every

1:02:22

week, but the number of

1:02:25

questions would increase. And my

1:02:27

teacher asked me like, well,

1:02:29

you don't show your work

1:02:31

so it doesn't count. And

1:02:33

I was like, what work?

1:02:35

Like, y'all don't know 14

1:02:37

times 18? Right? And that's

1:02:39

an example of, right? Like

1:02:41

if you just allow students

1:02:44

to explore their own curiosity

1:02:46

and not put like these

1:02:48

arbitrary limits on it, you

1:02:50

won't, they will learn more,

1:02:52

but they might like question

1:02:54

you more, right? I really

1:02:56

just started, I really just

1:02:58

learned that people actually believe

1:03:00

that George Washington had wooden

1:03:03

teeth, right? I thought, I

1:03:05

thought that that was a

1:03:07

thing like the moon is

1:03:09

made of cheese, right? Like

1:03:11

it was a joke, like

1:03:13

people don't really believe that,

1:03:15

right? I've learned that people

1:03:17

actually believe that, no, that

1:03:19

do that slave teeth, right?

1:03:22

intent to suppress our natural

1:03:24

curiosity is how they teach

1:03:26

us, right? Because they don't

1:03:28

want to teach us 12

1:03:30

times 18. They don't want

1:03:32

to teach us the true

1:03:34

history. They don't want to

1:03:36

teach us phonics. So they

1:03:38

teach us, I before E,

1:03:41

except after C, they teach

1:03:43

us 12 timetables. They teach

1:03:45

us that George Washington had

1:03:47

wooden teeth. Because a lot

1:03:49

of times, the teachers don't

1:03:51

know. Right, the teachers got

1:03:53

to carry the war when

1:03:55

they're doing this at times

1:03:57

tables. The teachers never learn

1:04:00

real black history. The teachers

1:04:02

don't know how to spell

1:04:04

unless they look it up

1:04:06

in a dictionary. That is

1:04:08

all very true. And I

1:04:10

think one of the things

1:04:12

that I've tried to do

1:04:14

as an educator is not

1:04:16

think about what are the

1:04:19

skills that young people need

1:04:21

to learn, but how do

1:04:23

we create young people who

1:04:25

are curious, young people who

1:04:27

will challenge the status quo,

1:04:29

like the purpose of school

1:04:31

in my estimation of things.

1:04:33

And this is sort of

1:04:35

why I started reconstruction. I

1:04:38

was like, well, wait a

1:04:40

minute. All of my Jewish

1:04:42

friends go to Hebrew school

1:04:44

or Sunday school, all of

1:04:46

my Korean friends go to

1:04:48

Korean school. Why are we

1:04:50

as black people leaving it

1:04:52

up to schools to teach

1:04:54

our history and our culture?

1:04:56

And what we know is

1:04:59

when our young people have

1:05:01

a strong identity, when they

1:05:03

see themselves in the content

1:05:05

that they are learning, not

1:05:07

only does their academic progress

1:05:09

soar. their confidence source, their

1:05:11

leadership source, all kinds of

1:05:13

positive indicators. And, you know,

1:05:15

we tried to create a

1:05:18

curriculum at DC Public Schools

1:05:20

that was turning out problem

1:05:22

solvers, advocates, community activists. We

1:05:24

believe that we needed to

1:05:26

prepare young people to solve

1:05:28

their own problems, their communities

1:05:30

problems, and the problems of

1:05:32

the world. But that is

1:05:34

not how most education systems

1:05:37

are set up. Right. And

1:05:39

we can talk about that

1:05:41

for a long time. But

1:05:43

what you just did, which

1:05:45

is pull in your multiplication

1:05:47

tables, George Washington Slave, teeth,

1:05:49

and whatever else we were

1:05:51

just talking about to illustrate

1:05:53

the point, I think, is

1:05:56

one of your superpowers. So

1:05:58

talk to me a little

1:06:00

bit about one of my

1:06:02

favorite things, which are your

1:06:04

threads on Facebook and Twitter.

1:06:06

where you are telling a

1:06:08

story about you and your

1:06:10

sister growing up or about

1:06:12

seemingly innocuous things and then

1:06:15

at the end you tell

1:06:17

us not that that's not

1:06:19

what this is really about.

1:06:21

I think you know as

1:06:23

a person who kind of

1:06:25

unknowingly was taught the art

1:06:27

of storytelling growing up that

1:06:29

I think it's the easiest

1:06:31

way to learn right? It

1:06:34

is once you can contextualize

1:06:36

things you understand them better

1:06:38

and not only aren't we

1:06:40

taught that way. We don't

1:06:42

even kind of use that

1:06:44

as a tool in our

1:06:46

toolbox to explain things. Well,

1:06:48

what happens is like if

1:06:50

you don't know history because

1:06:53

you don't know stories, then

1:06:55

you might think black people

1:06:57

are lazy because you don't

1:06:59

know about redlining and you

1:07:01

don't know about segregation. You

1:07:03

don't know like how schools

1:07:05

work. I think that I

1:07:07

started using adaptings, you know,

1:07:09

I think of it as

1:07:12

adapting storytelling to anything, right?

1:07:14

So if I'm on Twitter,

1:07:16

I write differently than if

1:07:18

I'm writing for a newspaper,

1:07:20

versus a, you know, a

1:07:22

book, versus writing a book,

1:07:24

versus writing a script, right,

1:07:26

but it's all a form

1:07:28

of storytelling. And that I

1:07:31

started doing it on Twitter.

1:07:33

how things used to be.

1:07:35

Because to me, that's not

1:07:37

what history is. It explains

1:07:39

how things are right now

1:07:41

and why it got to

1:07:43

be that way. And because

1:07:45

of the character limit, you

1:07:47

can only go, but so

1:07:50

far with a story, unless

1:07:52

you make each. So to

1:07:54

me, I look at each,

1:07:56

you know, tweet as. self

1:07:58

encapsulated in it itself. So

1:08:00

somebody might tweet the third

1:08:02

part of that thread and

1:08:04

somebody might tweet the fifth.

1:08:06

tweet in that thread, right?

1:08:09

So it has to make

1:08:11

sense as a standalone tweet,

1:08:13

but in context, it also

1:08:15

tells a different story, because

1:08:17

that's how the world is,

1:08:19

right? Like, if you see

1:08:21

somebody crying on a sidewalk,

1:08:23

it seems like a sad

1:08:25

woman, and then if you

1:08:28

know the context of why

1:08:30

she's crying and what happened

1:08:32

before, it might tell a

1:08:34

whole different story. And so

1:08:36

I see the world through...

1:08:38

through those lenses, right? Like

1:08:40

we, you know, things are

1:08:42

individuals parts of time, but

1:08:44

they are all connected to

1:08:47

other things and other actions

1:08:49

and people are too, right?

1:08:51

Like what you do in

1:08:53

DC will eventually affect me

1:08:55

in some way, whether it's

1:08:57

like a butterfly flapping its

1:08:59

wings, you know, it'll eventually

1:09:01

produce a wave that, you

1:09:03

know, floods, you know, Mm-hmm.

1:09:06

Talk to me a little

1:09:08

bit about you and, at

1:09:10

the time, Mayor Peek. Yeah,

1:09:12

like, so that started, like,

1:09:14

I, like, people think like,

1:09:16

you don't like feet, putters,

1:09:18

and I was like, no,

1:09:20

like, do you do the

1:09:22

judge, so as a journalist.

1:09:25

specifically writing for a black

1:09:27

audience or two black people.

1:09:29

One of the things that

1:09:31

I've always done, and I

1:09:33

think I just inherited this

1:09:35

with my family, it's like

1:09:37

correcting the record, right? Especially

1:09:39

as it relates to black

1:09:41

people, right? If you say

1:09:44

something about black people that

1:09:46

is patently false or wrong

1:09:48

or misguided, then I'm not

1:09:50

mad at you. Let me

1:09:52

just tell you how stupid

1:09:54

this thing was that you

1:09:56

said, right? So somebody... sent

1:09:58

me a clip of Pete

1:10:00

Buttiguez when he was running

1:10:03

for president who said that

1:10:05

you know what's wrong or

1:10:07

you know what black folks

1:10:09

need because you know I

1:10:11

always say that narrative was

1:10:13

the things that black folks

1:10:15

need but what black folks

1:10:17

need is more role models.

1:10:19

Well You know, I mean,

1:10:22

anybody who knows black neighborhoods

1:10:24

that grew up in the

1:10:26

black neighborhoods, no, like, because

1:10:28

y'all segregated us. We got

1:10:30

black teachers in black neighborhoods

1:10:32

and black lawyers and black

1:10:34

doctors. Like, you know, like,

1:10:36

we're not confined by, like,

1:10:38

socio economic factors, like, if

1:10:41

you poor and black, you

1:10:43

know a black doctor, because

1:10:45

of what white people did.

1:10:47

So when he said that,

1:10:49

right. And this guy who

1:10:51

went to Harvard, who had

1:10:53

been the mayor of a

1:10:55

town, like, you know you

1:10:57

were in a room with

1:10:59

the white people saying that,

1:11:02

because you know that's what

1:11:04

the white people hear. I

1:11:06

mean, that ain't even what

1:11:08

he believes. So it wasn't

1:11:10

that he was wrong, it's

1:11:12

that he was lying, and

1:11:14

using black people in his

1:11:16

lie to prove that he

1:11:18

was some kind of benevolent

1:11:21

merchant of equality for this

1:11:23

country. It wasn't that I

1:11:25

was trying to tell black

1:11:27

people that Pete Buttigas was

1:11:29

wrong. I was trying to

1:11:31

tell black people that he

1:11:33

was a lying motherfucker because

1:11:35

he was a motherfucker who

1:11:37

was lying. And to this

1:11:40

credit, he called me and

1:11:42

said his first words out

1:11:44

of his mouth was, well,

1:11:46

I've never been calling a

1:11:48

lying motherfucker before. And we

1:11:50

had a comment. The title

1:11:52

of your article was, Pete,

1:11:54

who the judge is a

1:11:56

lion MF, right? Yes, right.

1:11:59

That was a title. And

1:12:01

so he called you? And

1:12:03

those were the first words

1:12:05

out of his mouth. It

1:12:07

was like, I've never been

1:12:09

called a lion MF before.

1:12:11

And I like I didn't

1:12:13

have any annivers or like

1:12:15

yell at them or anything.

1:12:18

I was just like, well,

1:12:20

you know, like, if you're

1:12:22

going to be president, if

1:12:24

you're the mayor of a

1:12:26

city, if you're in a

1:12:28

room with white, with people

1:12:30

who make decisions, you can't,

1:12:32

first of all, you can't

1:12:34

perpetuate the lie that has

1:12:37

already been used to destroy

1:12:39

black people. Like, like, we

1:12:41

don't, the reason for that

1:12:43

all these racial disparities exist.

1:12:45

is not because white people

1:12:47

did anything. It's just that

1:12:49

like we don't see no

1:12:51

black people who can read,

1:12:53

right? So, you know, that

1:12:56

was always my point. Like

1:12:58

it had nothing to do

1:13:00

with people, Judge, as a

1:13:02

person, but what he was

1:13:04

doing, right? And share with

1:13:06

us the analogy that you

1:13:08

used to help him understand

1:13:10

what you were trying to

1:13:12

say. One of the things

1:13:15

I talked about is that,

1:13:17

right, I can't remember, I

1:13:19

don't know which specific one

1:13:21

you were talking about because

1:13:23

it was like actually two

1:13:25

subsequent pieces, but I was,

1:13:27

I told the story of,

1:13:29

I lived in a neighborhood

1:13:31

that was, that was segregated

1:13:34

by town was literally bisected

1:13:36

into, and it was 50%

1:13:38

black and 50% white so

1:13:40

when they killed the black

1:13:42

killed off the the black

1:13:44

high school and integrated the

1:13:46

schools it was on the

1:13:48

white side of town so

1:13:50

I grew up in a

1:13:53

town where black people literally

1:13:55

had to jump a ditch

1:13:57

to go to school and

1:13:59

so black some of the

1:14:01

black people built the bridge

1:14:03

over the school over the

1:14:05

over the over the ditch

1:14:07

but you know kids would

1:14:09

sometimes be you know pranksters

1:14:12

and just removed it so

1:14:14

just to watch people fall

1:14:16

in right but my point

1:14:18

was was that the people

1:14:20

who, when it was raining,

1:14:22

didn't jump that ditch, were

1:14:24

not just, you know, not

1:14:26

caring about education, but all

1:14:28

of the white people who

1:14:31

went to school every day

1:14:33

who got their moms to

1:14:35

drop them off, they never

1:14:37

had to jump a ditch,

1:14:39

right? They didn't even have

1:14:41

to wake up in the

1:14:43

morning and look out of

1:14:45

the window and say, is

1:14:47

the rain preventing me from

1:14:50

going to school today? And

1:14:52

you're saying we need more

1:14:54

role models and not bridges,

1:14:56

right? Yeah, yeah. And that's

1:14:58

the point, right? Like you,

1:15:00

if you don't have to

1:15:02

jump a ditch, how the

1:15:04

hell you know what these

1:15:06

people need? And that was

1:15:09

always my point. I think,

1:15:11

I mean, that I think

1:15:13

is your brilliance, right, that

1:15:15

you are able to take

1:15:17

really relatable things and use

1:15:19

them to... help people, help

1:15:21

black people understand what's going

1:15:23

on and to call a

1:15:25

spade a spade because people,

1:15:28

the judge was lying for

1:15:30

sure. Tell me this, one

1:15:32

of the other things that

1:15:34

I love about your writing

1:15:36

is black people are always

1:15:38

the heroes. Black people are

1:15:40

always at the center. Tell

1:15:42

me about that. Yeah, I

1:15:44

think that's part of like

1:15:47

just growing up in a

1:15:49

black family in a black

1:15:51

neighborhood and being homeschooled like

1:15:53

I when I was writing

1:15:55

black air of history I

1:15:57

actually interviewed my mom because

1:15:59

I never actually knew why

1:16:01

we were homeschooled and so

1:16:03

she told me a quote

1:16:06

that I'll never forget she

1:16:08

said I did not believe

1:16:10

that a black child's humanity

1:16:12

can be fully realized in

1:16:14

the presence of whiteness. you

1:16:16

know I understand that looking

1:16:18

back how she saw that

1:16:20

but you know in the

1:16:22

world that we live in

1:16:25

like we often forget just

1:16:27

how we are seeing and

1:16:29

you know how how this

1:16:31

world is constructed and we

1:16:33

have to cater to it

1:16:35

right like I think one

1:16:37

of the things that I've

1:16:39

never learned is how to

1:16:41

talk to white people like

1:16:44

you know I think we

1:16:46

all kind of cater to

1:16:48

whiteness way where we're where

1:16:50

we're careful not to make

1:16:52

them mad and we construct

1:16:54

our language to have it

1:16:56

approachable and acceptable for them

1:16:58

and I never learn how

1:17:00

to do that. So I

1:17:02

think that's that's you know

1:17:05

one of the things that

1:17:07

I think just I don't

1:17:09

look at it as centering

1:17:11

blackness. I think of it

1:17:13

as centering myself as a

1:17:15

human in my own humanity.

1:17:17

and like everything else like

1:17:19

that doesn't comport with that

1:17:21

must be the enemy. That

1:17:24

is powerful. One more question

1:17:26

about the book and then

1:17:28

I want to talk a

1:17:30

little bit about some of

1:17:32

the other work that you

1:17:34

do. You have questions at

1:17:36

the end of every section

1:17:38

and then there's a homework

1:17:40

chapter at the end. What's

1:17:43

up with that? Yeah, so

1:17:45

the idea was to write

1:17:47

the book as not just

1:17:49

a straightforward history book, right?

1:17:51

But to have fun with

1:17:53

it, to have questions and

1:17:55

tests, and to expose, you

1:17:57

know, what are the things

1:17:59

that the book does, right?

1:18:02

Is expose how we learn?

1:18:04

There's a subtle thing that

1:18:06

I do in the book

1:18:08

where For instance, if I

1:18:10

talk about a person who

1:18:12

was enslaved, who was enslaved

1:18:14

out of Angola, I will

1:18:16

call them an Angolan. Not

1:18:18

a slave, not an African,

1:18:21

not an African-American, but an

1:18:23

Angolan. And all the white

1:18:25

people were just white people,

1:18:27

right? And what I was

1:18:29

doing, right, is when you

1:18:31

say English... when you say

1:18:33

a pilgrim, when you say

1:18:35

a Spanish person, that automatically

1:18:37

imbues that person with a

1:18:40

history, a political motivation. Like

1:18:42

you know, like when I

1:18:44

say the pilgrims, you know,

1:18:46

these are people from. England,

1:18:48

who moved to Germany, who

1:18:50

escaped religious persecution, you know

1:18:52

their religion, you know what

1:18:54

they're believing, and when you

1:18:56

say Africa, you don't know

1:18:59

anything. You don't know where

1:19:01

they come geographically, right? You

1:19:03

don't know where their religion

1:19:05

was, you don't know what

1:19:07

their lineage was, and so

1:19:09

the thing I did with

1:19:11

the book and the thing

1:19:13

that I do did with

1:19:15

those questions at the end

1:19:18

is to show the absurdity

1:19:20

of the American education system

1:19:22

as it relates to black

1:19:24

people. right? Right? And it

1:19:26

seems funny, but it is

1:19:28

also, you know, terms, and

1:19:30

for instance, I ask, you

1:19:32

know, what is the difference

1:19:34

between a settler and an

1:19:37

invader? And the difference is

1:19:39

who writes the police report,

1:19:41

right? And it seems funny,

1:19:43

but it is also a...

1:19:45

an example of how, for

1:19:47

instance, we know that the

1:19:49

SAT is culturally biased, right?

1:19:51

Because of the way they

1:19:53

ask the questions, right? Right.

1:19:56

And we've learned things like

1:19:58

that. Well, we know actually

1:20:00

the SAT was not just

1:20:02

like accidentally culturally biased. that

1:20:04

was created to keep non-white

1:20:06

people out of universities. But

1:20:08

we won't get into that.

1:20:10

But that was a point

1:20:12

of the book, right? Type

1:20:15

2, expose the other people,

1:20:17

because you can't say, like,

1:20:19

if you get mad at

1:20:21

me saying white people, then

1:20:23

you gotta also be mad

1:20:25

at all the teachers who

1:20:27

say the Africans or the

1:20:29

Indians. or the Native Americans

1:20:31

without a, or who renamed

1:20:34

all of those indigenous people

1:20:36

to words that will fit

1:20:38

in white people's mouths, right?

1:20:40

Like you gotta be mad

1:20:42

at all of that. Indeed,

1:20:44

indeed. So in addition to

1:20:46

writing books, you are a

1:20:48

prolific podcaster. What is Dreythomania?

1:20:50

And why is that the

1:20:53

name of your podcast? So,

1:20:55

Drake Tomaniac's, in 1852, this

1:20:57

actual doctor named Samuel Adolphus

1:20:59

Cartwright came up with this

1:21:01

medical theory that was in

1:21:03

books for like the next

1:21:05

67 years. And he came

1:21:07

up with the disease called

1:21:09

Drake Tomania, the disease causing

1:21:12

slaves. causing black people to

1:21:14

want to be free. It

1:21:16

only affected black people. There

1:21:18

was this disease that made

1:21:20

black people want to be

1:21:22

free. And it was a

1:21:24

medical diagnosis. Even, like you

1:21:26

could look in newspapers even

1:21:28

after, you know, the 1910s

1:21:31

and the 1920s, and they

1:21:33

would call like black activists,

1:21:35

triptomaniacs, or they were affected

1:21:37

by triptomania. Even the FBI,

1:21:39

like that was the origin

1:21:41

of co-and-tel, bro, like they

1:21:43

were, like the word Drake

1:21:45

Tomaniac, so I took that

1:21:47

word and wondered, like, if

1:21:50

that was actually a disease,

1:21:52

who would be the worst

1:21:54

Drake to maniacs, like Ida

1:21:56

B. Wells? And so what

1:21:58

the podcast did was we

1:22:00

got celebrities and people. know

1:22:02

from the culture to do

1:22:04

these funny, each episode was

1:22:06

a different story with these

1:22:09

celebrities acting the parts of

1:22:11

these black stories from history

1:22:13

about trip to maniacs and

1:22:15

each one was its own

1:22:17

genre. So for instance we

1:22:19

did Ida B. Wells versus

1:22:21

Booker T. Washington as

1:22:24

a battle rapper, right? We

1:22:26

we did the story of

1:22:28

an 1811 slave revolt. as

1:22:30

if, you know, some, it

1:22:33

was an episode of the

1:22:35

first 48. We did the

1:22:37

candidates who

1:22:40

were people who were

1:22:42

candidates. for the title

1:22:44

of the first African-American.

1:22:46

This is a century

1:22:48

before 16-19. The people

1:22:50

were in America. And

1:22:52

we had a game

1:22:54

show. And each of

1:22:57

them told their stories

1:22:59

and the audience got

1:23:01

the judge. So it

1:23:03

was fun. We had people

1:23:05

like Farrell, like John Legend,

1:23:07

like just say, yeah. Yeah.

1:23:09

Yeah, Joy Reed's say, yeah,

1:23:12

I'll do that, right? And

1:23:14

we told these stories in

1:23:16

the funniest, these, a lot

1:23:18

of them were untold stories

1:23:20

in the funniest and most

1:23:22

entertaining way with this podcast.

1:23:25

If you have not listened

1:23:27

to Drake Domaniacs, you should

1:23:29

absolutely get it wherever

1:23:31

you get your podcast. So you,

1:23:34

you're a podcaster, you are

1:23:36

the black dean of Twitter, are

1:23:38

you still on Twitter? tweet out, I

1:23:40

use a service that tweets out my

1:23:43

articles on Twitter, but I'm not, I

1:23:45

don't be on it like that. Like

1:23:47

it's just, it's just not fun anymore.

1:23:50

Yeah, we out. Okay, but you've

1:23:52

also written books, you've written

1:23:54

curricula, what haven't you done,

1:23:56

what do you want to

1:23:58

do that you haven't done? I want

1:24:00

to write everything in every

1:24:02

genre. So like I want

1:24:04

to write a narrative movie.

1:24:06

I've written for Docks and

1:24:08

I've been in Docks, but

1:24:11

I want to do a

1:24:13

narrative movie I've written for

1:24:15

Late Night TV, but I

1:24:17

hadn't written like for a

1:24:19

TV series I want to

1:24:21

do that so every every

1:24:23

form of writing I think

1:24:25

of myself first and foremost

1:24:27

as a writer and I

1:24:29

want to explore every aspect

1:24:31

of that and you know,

1:24:33

like it sounds kind of

1:24:35

self-important, but like, you know,

1:24:37

I think it's cool that

1:24:39

want to be when I

1:24:41

am gone from this earth

1:24:43

to be to have all

1:24:45

of these things in every

1:24:48

genre represent me and maybe

1:24:50

somebody will say like that

1:24:52

that dude could write. Huh,

1:24:54

I love that. I absolutely

1:24:56

love that. And I appreciate

1:24:58

that because one of my

1:25:00

questions is going to be,

1:25:02

what do you want when

1:25:04

you get to the pearly

1:25:06

gates? What do you want

1:25:08

people to say about you?

1:25:10

But there we are. That

1:25:12

do you can write. So

1:25:14

like everybody else in America,

1:25:16

our listeners are trying to

1:25:18

survive and thrive during maybe

1:25:20

what might be the greatest

1:25:22

political upheaval, at least in

1:25:25

recent history. What message do

1:25:27

you have for them to

1:25:29

help them remain hopeful and

1:25:31

to keep fighting a good

1:25:33

fight? Well, I think that

1:25:35

my thing that I always

1:25:37

say that is that, first

1:25:39

of all, what we're seeing

1:25:41

now is like a part

1:25:43

of a centuries long effort,

1:25:45

like that never stopped, right?

1:25:47

I guess it's nothing new.

1:25:49

It is something, it's a

1:25:51

continuum. is part of a

1:25:53

continuum. But here's the thing

1:25:55

about that continuum. Like, you,

1:25:57

if you think of everything

1:25:59

that has been done to

1:26:02

human beings, like, there's nothing

1:26:04

that has ever been done

1:26:06

to a human being that

1:26:08

hasn't been done to black

1:26:10

people in mass. And we

1:26:12

are undefeated. We think we

1:26:14

beat slavery. We beat pro.

1:26:16

We beat. Like, like, all

1:26:18

of that stuff. We beat.

1:26:20

Red Summer like we beat

1:26:22

it all like not only

1:26:24

do we like we like

1:26:26

we like to say we

1:26:28

survive But now we didn't

1:26:30

just survive like we were

1:26:32

the ones who ended it

1:26:34

right like we were the

1:26:36

ones who made this country

1:26:39

a democracy We were the

1:26:41

ones who created the American

1:26:43

education system and we did

1:26:45

it with nothing right so

1:26:47

the thing that always gives

1:26:49

me hope Especially with what

1:26:51

we're seeing now is and

1:26:53

I don't even like to

1:26:55

categorize it as like black

1:26:57

people magic or have the

1:26:59

superpower. The truth is the

1:27:01

people who are trying to

1:27:03

stop us have been historically

1:27:05

incompetent and stopping black people.

1:27:07

Like they are terrible at

1:27:09

doing things, right? Like when

1:27:11

you think about it, right?

1:27:13

Like so think about if

1:27:16

you have more people, more

1:27:18

money, more power, more land.

1:27:20

and you still can't stop

1:27:22

the enslaved people from unenslaving

1:27:24

themselves. If you still can't

1:27:26

stop the people from building

1:27:28

their own education systems and

1:27:30

creating their own communities and

1:27:32

becoming doctors and lawyers and

1:27:34

being better at all of

1:27:36

it than you are, right?

1:27:38

Like you really kind of

1:27:40

incompetent and we see it

1:27:42

played out right now like

1:27:44

they put in like what

1:27:46

who they think is the

1:27:48

smartest man in the world

1:27:50

in charge of the government

1:27:53

and he can't do nothing

1:27:55

like he's pushing the black

1:27:57

people out the smartest man

1:27:59

in the world, and he

1:28:01

can't do what they do,

1:28:03

like everything falling apart, right?

1:28:05

Because he can't do, like

1:28:07

he got all the white

1:28:09

people who are supposedly smart,

1:28:11

and the planes falling out

1:28:13

of the sky, and the

1:28:15

computers don't work, and all

1:28:17

of that, like, he had,

1:28:19

he used all of his

1:28:21

millions to buy this platform,

1:28:23

that, and everybody's leaving it,

1:28:25

because the black people. made

1:28:27

it fun, the black people

1:28:29

made it interesting. And ultimately,

1:28:32

here is what the thing

1:28:34

that gives me comfort, right?

1:28:36

Black people and black culture

1:28:38

and the thing that we

1:28:40

are built is a form

1:28:42

of wealth that is more

1:28:44

valuable than all of the

1:28:46

money and all of the

1:28:48

stock that Elon Musk holds.

1:28:50

Just think about it, right?

1:28:52

When Elon Musk bought Twitter,

1:28:54

it was black Twitter that

1:28:56

made it valuable and when

1:28:58

black people started leaving it,

1:29:00

everybody started leaving, right? When

1:29:02

the biggest record company in

1:29:04

the world had the two

1:29:06

most famous artists in the

1:29:09

world and they got to

1:29:11

the top of their careers,

1:29:13

how they just went into

1:29:15

their... houses and made music

1:29:17

and just give it directly

1:29:19

to the people. The white

1:29:21

companies didn't have anything to

1:29:23

do with that, right? When

1:29:25

the largest retailers in the

1:29:27

world saw black people out

1:29:29

in the streets, they got

1:29:31

so scared they put it

1:29:33

in DEI and not as

1:29:35

stock as tanking because they

1:29:37

took it out like our

1:29:39

culture. And the value that

1:29:41

we bring to everything is

1:29:43

worth more than all of

1:29:46

their money. And I think

1:29:48

that we should think of

1:29:50

that every time you go

1:29:52

into a store and buy

1:29:54

something. We should think of

1:29:56

it as, what are you

1:29:58

investing in? Like you do

1:30:00

millionaires, we're millionaires. We're billionaires.

1:30:02

What are we going to

1:30:04

invest? though, are we going

1:30:06

to invest our money into

1:30:08

these people who want to

1:30:10

exclude us? And I think

1:30:12

as their world falls apart,

1:30:14

we know we're going to

1:30:16

survive. But what are we

1:30:18

going to build? In the

1:30:20

meantime, as this stuff falls

1:30:23

apart, we have the opportunity

1:30:25

to build and invest. And

1:30:27

that is the opportunity that

1:30:29

we rarely see. Michael Harriet,

1:30:31

oh my gosh, you just

1:30:33

set this whole interview on

1:30:35

fire. I want to say

1:30:37

thank you so, so much

1:30:39

for your wisdom, for your

1:30:41

wit, and for the work

1:30:43

that you are doing to

1:30:45

help us all get free.

1:30:47

Pods Save the People Family,

1:30:49

this has been amazing, a

1:30:51

bit of a dream come

1:30:53

true for me. I'm totally

1:30:55

fangirling. And I'm appreciative that

1:30:57

the Blackest Book Club gives

1:31:00

us the opportunity to meet

1:31:02

our heroes like Michael Harriet.

1:31:04

And so if you want

1:31:06

to join the conversation, check

1:31:08

out recon. Today slash Blackest

1:31:10

hyphen book hyphen club because

1:31:12

we are seeking liberation through

1:31:14

literature. Michael, thank you so

1:31:16

much for joining us. And

1:31:18

thank you for having you

1:31:20

to come back sometime. God

1:31:22

love to come back. So

1:31:24

thank you for having me.

1:31:42

Well, that's it. Thanks so much for tuning

1:31:45

in to Ponzi of the People this week.

1:31:47

Don't forget to follow us on cricket media

1:31:49

on Instagram, Twitter, and Tiktat. And if you

1:31:51

enjoy this episode of Ponzi, the people, consider

1:31:53

dropping us a review on your favorite podcast

1:31:56

app. And we'll see you next week. Ponzi

1:31:58

of the People is a production of cricket

1:32:00

media. It's produced by A.J. Moultrie and mixed

1:32:02

by Basile. Fatopoulos, Fatopoulos, executive produced by me

1:32:04

and special thanks to our weekly contributors, Kai

1:32:06