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Cricket's friends at Vote Save

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have set up a disaster

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impacted by the horrific wildfires

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for you to make one

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donation that's split among incredible

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charities doing critical work for

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our neighbors and first responders.

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The Latino Community Foundation, Los

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Angeles Regional Food Bank, Los

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Angeles Fire Department Foundation, the

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United Way of Greater Los

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Angeles, California Community Foundation Wildfire

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Thanks to you, we have

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raised nearly $200,000 for these

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more and make a tax

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deductible donation at

0:45

boatsaveamerica.com/relief. This is Great.

0:47

And what can I possibly say

0:49

to people in this episode? It's

0:51

me, Kaya, Miles, and Diyar, talking

0:53

about the news that you don't

0:55

know or maybe didn't hear about

0:57

with regard to race justice and

0:59

equity from the past week. And

1:02

obviously the election, because 2025 is

1:04

off to really a mad dash.

1:06

And then I sit down with

1:08

Andrew and Naomi from Whistleblower Aid,

1:10

which is a nonprofit that was

1:12

created to help people figure out

1:14

the Whistleblowing process. Whether it's in

1:16

state, county, or city election offices,

1:18

or anybody else within the government.

1:20

So I learned a lot. I

1:22

did not know where Civil War

1:24

8 existed. It is an incredible

1:26

organization. I hope that you will

1:28

learn from Andrew and Naomi too.

1:30

Here we go. And don't forget

1:32

to follow us on Instagram at Pods

1:35

Save the People for more. Boom. Family,

1:38

welcome to another episode of

1:40

POD Save the People. I'm

1:42

Diara Ballinger. You can find

1:44

me on Instagram at Diara

1:46

Ballinger. I'm Miles E. Johnson.

1:48

You can find me on

1:50

Instagram at Farrow Rapture. I'm

1:52

Kay Henderson on Instagram at

1:54

Kaya Shines. And this is Drey

1:57

at Di-Y on The One and Only

1:59

Still Twitter. Well

2:01

folks just dead naming

2:04

that girl That is

2:06

TSX Oh man and

2:08

and speaking of the

2:10

social media look like

2:12

Ticksack was going to

2:14

be gone I mean

2:16

it is right isn't it's

2:18

like it's inactive

2:20

right for some hours but

2:22

it's back but it's back

2:25

it was gone for 14

2:27

hours And it's back and

2:29

tick-talk released a statement

2:31

thinking Donald Trump and

2:33

his efforts to reinstate

2:35

tick-talk temporarily. Wasn't he

2:38

able to include Warren-Ticktock? Uh-huh.

2:40

Uh-huh. I mean, I'm just

2:43

trying to follow. Flipps offs

2:45

are so flippity-flappity. Yeah. Yeah.

2:48

Yeah. So that happened. I'm

2:51

on a lot of chats and some

2:53

mom chats. I don't know how

2:55

I end up in the mom

2:57

chats, but I exist there. And

2:59

there's so much tick-tockery that happens

3:01

in those mom chats. And so

3:03

people were very, very upset. And

3:05

like, what am I going to

3:07

do with my time? My mind

3:09

went to... I don't know. It's a great

3:12

thing that's happening. Maybe stay

3:14

off of social media, everybody.

3:17

But no it's back, and so here we

3:19

are. So here we are. And

3:22

you know, Trump proposed that

3:24

the federal government actually, by

3:26

half of it, today, and that

3:28

if the federal government invests in

3:30

TikTok, it will be worth,

3:32

and I quote, maybe trillion.

3:35

Trillions. Trillions. Trillions. Yeah,

3:37

because the federal government

3:39

is so great at innovation

3:41

and the internet. That sounds like

3:44

a great business idea. It is

3:46

just wild to watch that back and

3:48

forth with Trump not being the president.

3:50

but negotiating getting them to put his

3:53

name up on the alert when TikTok

3:55

went down to say that like, you

3:57

know, a shout out to President Trump.

3:59

out very much reminiscent of the

4:02

stimulus checks. And then for them

4:04

to not even be offline the

4:06

entire day, essentially, but to come

4:08

back online in the middle of

4:11

the day, Trump is still not

4:13

the president. Trump does not have

4:15

the power in an executive order

4:18

to undo the law that forces

4:20

the sale. It just is, it's

4:22

been a wild misinformation moment to

4:24

watch, but also Trump's. sort of

4:27

mastermind that like no real policy

4:29

but getting people so riled up

4:31

over this stuff that he becomes

4:33

a story. People know more about

4:36

him in TikTok than they do

4:38

with his position of taking health

4:40

care away from millions of people.

4:42

You know, it's just so wild

4:44

to watch. Wild is a way to put

4:46

it. I'm also just thinking about just

4:48

the... To me it just seems very

4:50

obvious that he wants to have very

4:52

clear winds. So when it comes to

4:54

the ceasefire, you know, whatever is going

4:56

to happen with that in Yahoo and

4:58

we... We're recording on a Sunday, who

5:00

knows what's going to be true by

5:02

Tuesday. But it seems obvious that he's

5:04

trying to construct just different ways that

5:06

he can be seen as winning. So

5:08

getting, I think the, the ticktop being

5:10

taken away is publicity in theater. I

5:13

think all that news and all that

5:15

stuff that was happening up until then,

5:17

I think they already knew what was

5:19

going to happen and what it looked

5:21

like in Trump wanted the theater of

5:23

that. And then going into, later on

5:25

this week, I think another big. Publicity

5:27

Theater moment is gonna be seeing illegal,

5:30

there's gonna be seeing people deported,

5:32

seeing people get caught up, Chicago,

5:34

I think that is something that

5:36

he wants the American people to

5:39

see, I think he's using publicity

5:41

to show his presidency as victorious,

5:43

even if there's a whole bunch

5:46

of failure and incompetence happening under

5:48

the hood. So. If it wasn't so shady

5:50

it would be brilliant. I'm trying to

5:52

figure out how he's going to square

5:55

a circle on these deportations. I

5:57

was reading an article this morning

5:59

on MP. are about how

6:01

the entire state of

6:03

Nebraska revolves around the

6:05

meat processing industry

6:07

and there's there's only

6:10

39 workers for every

6:12

100 jobs and they

6:14

need legal illegal immigrants

6:17

they are like come here you

6:19

got job you can build a

6:21

house you can do these things

6:24

and the meat that Americans eat

6:26

will not can't move, like

6:28

agriculture, construction, grub hub,

6:31

UberEats, all y'all who like

6:33

to do all that stuff. There

6:35

are so many different industries that

6:37

are going to be radically impacted

6:40

when these deportation start and the

6:42

same business people who, you know,

6:44

elected this man and thought he

6:46

would be business friendly are now

6:49

turning around like lots of other

6:51

people that say, wait a minute,

6:53

where I'm going to get my

6:55

workers from. But it seems as

6:57

though the things that it seems

7:00

like what he's targeting and again

7:02

there's like so much news around

7:04

it so I could be wrong,

7:06

so tell me if y'all read

7:09

something different. But it seems like

7:11

he's targeting blue states in urban

7:13

areas. So he didn't, it's not

7:15

Chicago, it's Chicago. So I think

7:17

what he's gonna do, and what

7:20

it looks like he's gonna do

7:22

is he's centering those blue states,

7:24

those urban areas, and that's what

7:26

he's gonna do, is he's

7:28

centering those blue states, those

7:30

urban areas, and that's what

7:33

he's going to do. was,

7:35

you know, because people have

7:37

been talking about this idea

7:39

that deportations are really popular

7:41

and da-da-da-da. And when you

7:43

actually drill down, Data for

7:45

Progress put out an interesting

7:47

poll that was done in

7:49

October of 2024, and they

7:52

showed that the more people

7:54

actually learned about the subsets

7:56

of people, the less they

7:58

supported deportations. but has

8:00

lived here for 20 years,

8:02

65% of likely voters said

8:04

no. Somebody who sought asylum

8:06

in their application is awaiting

8:09

a decision, 64% of

8:11

voters said no. Somebody

8:13

who's under temporary protected

8:15

status and their country's

8:18

experiencing ongoing conflict, 62%

8:20

said no. So like.

8:22

People are actually way more nuanced about

8:24

this and do not support this mass

8:26

deportation thing. I'm hopeful and you know,

8:28

it's so sad because the mayor of

8:30

Chicago is under so much hot water

8:32

now in his own world that I

8:34

don't think you'll be able to even

8:36

weave a narrative that pushes back on

8:38

the deportations, which is unfortunate. And Lord

8:40

knows if they happen in New York

8:42

City, Adams is in bed with Trump,

8:44

so that'll be another nightmare. But, you

8:46

know, you got to hope that one

8:49

of these things backfires on Trump. That

8:53

H-word. I don't know. I

8:55

think I'm preparing my spirit

8:57

to see people deported. I

8:59

think I'm prepared, and I

9:01

think there's something that they

9:04

want, and I think it's

9:06

something that Trump wants, and

9:08

I think it's something that

9:10

his electorate wants to see,

9:12

and I mean. I of course I hope

9:14

that but it just looks like the

9:16

reality is that is something that is

9:19

going to be seen as a clear

9:21

win and they want to be able

9:23

to see even if it's happening in

9:25

different sizes if that makes sense even

9:27

if People want to see the purple

9:29

walk, because the people want to see

9:32

the cruelty into your point array about

9:34

people when they hear about the details

9:36

of these plans, people have more humane

9:38

responses. That just shows the conservatives' whole

9:40

plan to dehumanize the policy. So like

9:42

it's just this block of aliens or

9:45

this block of people who eat dogs.

9:47

Like you can't necessarily interject humanity into

9:49

it because most people. do have some

9:52

type of compassion and don't want to

9:54

and have some type of reasoning that's

9:56

why they make it a make it

9:58

a point to not let your

10:01

mind even connect that these people

10:03

are humans with practical lives. And

10:05

just a reminder that the Biden

10:08

administration has deported more people than

10:10

the Trump administration. And there was

10:13

an increase in deportations. Obviously, you

10:15

know, the war in Gaza, and

10:17

I think this, and deportations, how

10:20

immigration was boggled, and then also

10:22

criminal justice reform, like there was

10:24

such a lack of intensity or

10:27

intention around it. Like I think

10:29

these will be the blemishes on

10:31

Joe Biden's legacy, among other things,

10:34

but these are just the type

10:36

of things that are tough. top

10:39

of mind. But this is collective,

10:41

this is collective guilt because we

10:43

haven't had substantive immigration reform since

10:46

Ronald Reagan. So a whole bunch

10:48

of people can line up to

10:50

take this this guilt and we

10:53

just need to fix this broken

10:55

system. Why won't we just fix

10:58

the system instead of all of

11:00

it? Instead of treating the symptoms.

11:02

I do think too that our

11:05

storytelling on immigration has to change.

11:07

I think that, you know, before,

11:09

so I know the police and

11:12

criminal justice much better than I

11:14

knew immigration and I realize that

11:17

so much of my sense of

11:19

like the immigration problem was about

11:21

the border because that's what I've

11:24

been told. I heard so much

11:26

about the border that like I

11:28

didn't realize about the people who

11:31

visas that expired, the... the hearings

11:33

that have never happened the backlog

11:35

so people are technically here illegally

11:38

but no fault of their own

11:40

you know so like so when

11:43

people talk about this idea that

11:45

if you commit a crime you

11:47

should just be deported if you

11:50

don't have legal status you're like

11:52

no these people this is this

11:54

idea that the whole group of

11:57

people are people who like hopped

11:59

on over a fence, which is

12:02

actually the narrative that I think

12:04

we get fed so much is

12:06

part of the problem in the

12:09

storytelling around immigration and the process.

12:11

I do think we have to

12:13

figure out how to tell a

12:16

better more big picture story so

12:18

that our side like just

12:20

understands what is at

12:22

stake, you know. Guess what's

12:25

happening tomorrow, everyone? January

12:27

20th. Martin Luther day.

12:30

Did y'all see Maurice that has,

12:33

what is it called, Something in

12:35

Bloom, Maurice, that's based out of

12:37

LA, he has a really beautiful

12:40

and hilarious Instagram, and he basically,

12:42

yeah, was celebrating MLK Day. I'm

12:44

going to have to send it

12:47

around to you, because everyone should

12:49

watch it. I don't know when

12:52

Maurice became an expert at flag

12:54

throwing or flag twirling. But that

12:56

was part of the celebration of

12:59

Martin Luther King Day. That very much

13:01

stuck with me. But yes, that's what,

13:03

certainly what we are celebrating. But it's

13:05

been interesting to see all of the

13:07

sort of the twists and turns that

13:10

have gone along with this inauguration. One,

13:12

it's no longer outside. It's now in

13:14

the rotunda. The other piece of news

13:16

that came out is that they're also

13:18

going to be big screens outside. Now

13:21

those aren't going to be a part

13:23

of the show either. Some other things

13:25

too that were popular my

13:28

group chats over the weekend

13:30

is that, you know, Nellie

13:32

and Snoop are performing at

13:35

the inauguration ball We'll save

13:37

that for another day But

13:39

it just I guess it's it's

13:41

it's just interesting that

13:43

all of these sort

13:45

of you know, making this as

13:47

big as possible in Trump

13:50

brand It's sort of not what's

13:52

happening. It looks like it's going to

13:54

be like really tight. It's going to

13:56

be the front row is going to

13:58

be all the billionaires. all the people

14:00

that are pouring into DC. I'm

14:02

not in DC right now. My

14:04

mom is there though. She's having

14:06

a liberation party if anybody wants

14:09

to go. Yeah, just it's interesting

14:11

to see the shift in what

14:13

this is gonna look like. Soldier

14:15

Boy and Rick Ross. What? Nelly

14:17

snooped on Soldier Boy and Rick

14:19

Ross. And they actually already performed.

14:21

So they performed that the like.

14:23

preballs, all of them have already

14:25

performed. Carry Underwood is the feature

14:27

performer, I think, on the actual

14:29

inauguration day. You know, they had

14:31

to announce to all the Trump

14:33

people that their tickets to watch

14:35

the actual inauguration are now commemorative

14:37

because they will not be able

14:39

to see it live and they

14:41

will not be able to see

14:43

it on the jumbotron. and the

14:45

only people in the rotunda will

14:47

be the members of Congress. So

14:49

it's so interesting though, because his

14:51

people keep getting played and they

14:54

still support him. So I don't really

14:56

know what to say to them, because they, I

14:58

don't know, what do you say? And then he,

15:00

yeah, I don't know. He said, who gets? So

15:02

not sold your mouth. His people

15:05

bought tickets to fly to DC to

15:07

DC to see him. And then at

15:09

the last minute, he is like, just

15:11

kidding. It's all inside. It's all inside.

15:13

So they are now, you know, there

15:15

are videos of them on the internet

15:17

being like, we're not gonna get to

15:19

see them? Like I'm pissed and I

15:21

flew all the way out here. And

15:23

it's like, y'all got God, but he's

15:25

been getting y'all the whole time. The

15:27

whole time. Yeah, yeah. It's becoming obvious.

15:29

I think the. the black folks lineup,

15:31

then Ellie's new dog soldier boy and

15:33

Rick Ross lined up. It's really interesting

15:36

to me, specifically in the wake of

15:38

the Drake lawsuits, because I think Drake

15:40

has done a really good job of

15:42

kind of showing people taking the hood

15:45

off of how the dynamic, the culture,

15:47

the profit dynamic works, like black people

15:49

make something cool. So that person is

15:51

now cool and that person now sells

15:54

it to white people who buy things,

15:56

but those white people only want what

15:58

you have because they. think that

16:00

you're cool and it's funny that

16:03

everybody on this list is somebody

16:05

who has who had that kind

16:07

of like black cultural solidarity you're

16:09

from St. Louis you're from Cali

16:12

you're you're you're willing to perform

16:14

a certain type of blackness that

16:16

shows that you're dangerous and white

16:18

boys think you're cool and now

16:21

I think they're seeing wait I

16:23

can still perform at Trump and

16:25

get the same dudes to like

16:27

me who've always liked me because

16:30

at the end of the day

16:32

when you look at those DMX

16:34

performances, that is who your audience

16:36

is, the white boys. That's who

16:39

you're, and Kendrick Lamar, even though

16:41

we all love him and he's

16:43

like us, but Drake, that's really

16:45

who you're performing for. So I

16:48

think they're noticing that I can

16:50

still make money and I can

16:52

still get lots and lots of

16:54

money and not actually lose. a

16:57

large enough section of my fan

16:59

base that makes it hit my

17:01

pockets. You know, I think that's

17:03

what we see in going on

17:06

too. That times, I think a

17:08

lot of straight black men, this

17:10

audience, aren't as partisan as other

17:12

demographics or willing to not be

17:15

as partisan when it comes to

17:17

what the entertainment they share. Well,

17:19

I just want to share the

17:21

other side of that because lucky

17:24

for me. A lot of my

17:26

dad's buddies, more house buddies, text

17:28

me all the time, because they

17:30

miss my daddy, and so they

17:33

text me. So I get a

17:35

lot of the, like, the text

17:37

that gets sent around to everybody,

17:39

everybody, everybody. And one of the

17:42

text was a long text about

17:44

how they are planning to boycott

17:46

the inauguration, like don't even have

17:48

your TV on tomorrow for it

17:51

to get ratings. having spent time

17:53

working on commas campaign and having

17:55

to do so much around organizing

17:57

black men when I see they

18:00

can organize themselves, I get really

18:02

excited. And everybody

18:04

take that however they want to. And they

18:06

don't listen to be listening to the stylistics

18:08

and funcadellic. Well, I'll tell you the ball.

18:10

It's something in the music, I promise you.

18:12

Once you start saying, Natalie Sinoop, soldier boy,

18:14

I hate to sound like Bill Cosby, but

18:16

I'm like, oh yeah. Yeah. That audio. Yeah.

18:18

I am, my, my, the ball I'm going

18:20

to, is that Marty Mardi Gras, the Zulu

18:23

ball. The Zulu ball. The Zulu and Jeffrey

18:25

Osborne ball and Jeffrey Osborne and Jeffrey Osborne

18:27

and Sborn and Sborn and S. And S.

18:29

And S. And S. V. V. V. V.

18:31

Those are the time to acts

18:33

that have integrity to me. I

18:36

will say I was shocked that Nellie

18:38

when asked about why he performed, he's

18:40

like, it's not for money, it's an

18:42

honor to perform for the president. I'm

18:44

like, this is just wild. That sounds

18:46

like something Trump would tell you to

18:49

say. It sounds like when you get

18:51

a lot of money, that's what I

18:53

would say that. I think Trump said

18:55

to say that because I think that

18:57

he knows just as much as anybody

18:59

else that he wants to be seen

19:02

as a powerful influential president. That's

19:05

the kind of statement that that that

19:07

that reinforces that fantasy Hey, you're listening

19:09

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21:51

what I think is happening at the White

21:53

House because we see all these things right

21:55

all these the Biden pardons You know, they're

21:57

like we're a hundred people that got The

22:00

Presidential Medal of Freedom a

22:02

few weeks ago, including Hillary Clinton. Thanks,

22:04

President Biden, for giving Hillary Clinton

22:06

one, I don't know, like a

22:08

day before you're leaving. What? I think,

22:10

and I want to give a shout

22:12

out, because this is just what I

22:15

think is happening in the White House

22:17

right now, I think there are folks

22:19

who have been pushing all along for

22:21

certain things to happen, like these pardons,

22:23

like, you know, commuting people's death penalties,

22:25

and sentences, etc. And I think now

22:27

that we're at the final days, all

22:30

these things are getting pushed through, because

22:32

I think the head white folks in

22:34

charge are like, okay, we'll let the

22:36

folks of color get what they want.

22:38

So I think that's sort of like

22:40

what my experience in

22:43

administrations and seeing how these

22:45

things work and seeing how the

22:47

later days before a president leads

22:49

office works. So I mean, shout out

22:51

to all the folks that I know y'all

22:53

have been working to probably push those

22:56

through the day you got to work

22:58

four years ago. So I don't know how

23:00

quick I want to be to give props

23:02

where I think those should have been, you

23:05

know, sort of. within 90 days of

23:07

you being in office. You should have

23:09

gotten some of this stuff done. But

23:11

that's my very pessimistic take on it.

23:13

I'll say, I'm not pessimistic about

23:15

it, but I also don't know

23:17

those people. I will say the

23:19

two highlights of the pardons. One

23:21

is. He pardoned the people who

23:23

had been negatively impacted by the

23:26

crack cocaine disparity. As you remember,

23:28

there used to be 101 disparity,

23:30

so same amount, but if you

23:32

used crack, you got penalized heavily

23:34

in federal sentencing. He pardoned those

23:36

people, so shout out to them

23:38

for not experiencing the brunt of

23:40

that disparity. And then also, you

23:42

know, people have been pushing really

23:44

along from Marcus Garvey to... receive

23:47

a pardon after his death and

23:49

Biden also did that and some

23:51

other people he did some other

23:53

some rights people who are still

23:55

alive. I have a question about

23:57

that. I don't and I don't mean

23:59

to be but like what

24:01

difference does that

24:04

make? It's symbolic

24:06

it's really for colonialism's

24:08

own narcissism to say, oh, we

24:11

pardon somebody who's freaking dead. It's

24:13

like, it's just, it's just symbolic

24:15

and pageantry to show, oh, now

24:18

we've got sophisticated enough that we're

24:20

gonna pardon Marcus Garvey, not read

24:22

anything that he said, not really,

24:25

not really, not really absorb any

24:27

of his intellectual work or any

24:29

of that, just symbolically say, oh,

24:32

you, you are a black person

24:34

who said a right thing, here's

24:36

your pardon, what I don't I really

24:39

don't understand and I'm sure I just want

24:41

to say that I just I do

24:43

have some friends who are historians who are very

24:45

excited about it and who have been pushing

24:47

for it for a long time and they

24:49

are a small set of black historians who

24:51

have been really animated about this to like

24:53

correct the historical record, but I also hear

24:55

your larger film. But it is, it's not

24:57

connective y'all and that's why I started with

24:59

my long preamble because this is this, I,

25:01

I, this is somebody individual, some individual in

25:03

the White House really wanted this to happen.

25:06

Like if I ever worked in a White

25:08

House. I would spend my whole four years

25:10

working on getting a shot of Shakur off

25:12

the FBI most wanted list. Like that would

25:14

be my thing and that would come out

25:16

and people be like, why the fuck she

25:18

working on? So I think it is, that's

25:20

why, I mean, that's what this is signaling

25:22

to me is that there are people who

25:24

wanted these individual things to happen. It's

25:26

not a part of a grander sort

25:29

of ideology. But it's also, like, even if

25:31

I was one of the people that were

25:33

working on that, and it had

25:35

significance for me. This is cheap.

25:37

It's cheap. That for four years,

25:39

you didn't think this was important.

25:41

And late. And on your last

25:43

day of office, you're going to

25:45

try to throw a bone to

25:47

the black people by pardoning Marcus

25:49

Garvey. Sorry. I'm sure that it

25:51

matters a lot to the Garvey

25:54

family and lots. But I don't know.

25:56

It probably like if y'all read

25:58

the book because Garvey. is, Garvey says,

26:00

that's true, made up for it all. But,

26:03

but this is what I'm saying, right? Like,

26:05

we have to stop being excited about cheap

26:07

crap that people throw to us, right? Like,

26:09

this is, this is all, you know, breadcrumbs

26:12

after the people have feasted. Are you kidding

26:14

me? Are you kidding me? But the, the,

26:16

the, the whole thing is, because usually is.

26:18

In order to get a place, in order

26:20

to get a place inside of an institution,

26:23

you have to kind of be in your

26:25

heart institutionalist. You have to believe in the

26:27

institution. So it's like, I get it, but

26:29

that's... I just feel like a lot of

26:32

the people who push for those type of

26:34

things are really doing it for their own

26:36

career as motives. I think they're doing it

26:38

because they want to be able to say

26:41

that this is what I did, this is

26:43

what my resume is, and this is what

26:45

my resume is, and this is on my

26:47

resume, and this is on my resume, and

26:49

this thing is now something that I did

26:52

without necessarily absorbing what that person... is going

26:54

to tell you after they got out of

26:56

whatever academic situation that hey I'm gonna put

26:58

this on my list but I think that

27:01

we as black people are primed to give

27:03

our most greatest efforts to institutions thinking that

27:05

doing something so symbolic means anything and we're

27:07

seeing that it doesn't mean anything and we're

27:10

seeing on the grand scale with this these

27:12

commutes and these sentences being commuted that Democrats

27:14

in general are doing the slow incremental thing

27:16

while they're getting like pushed and plummeted by

27:19

Republicans who are doing something in the office

27:21

in a meeting and 20 minutes later tick-tocking

27:23

it like you know so it's like no

27:25

you should have done that the first hour

27:27

and got it going if it was going

27:30

to even have it symbolic value. Meanwhile before

27:32

Donald Trump even gets into office he says

27:34

let's extend tick-tock And oh,

27:36

there are some people

27:39

who maybe could buy

27:41

TikTok. And you know

27:43

who the people are?

27:45

The little company with

27:48

the three young men

27:50

or whatever who I

27:52

can't even remember the

27:54

name of the company

27:56

now. You put it

27:59

in the chat, Dore,

28:01

find it for me,

28:03

whatever it is, the

28:05

company that they suggested

28:08

buying. And so I

28:10

did a diara and

28:12

I looked at their

28:14

list of investors. It's

28:17

there's three young men,

28:19

one is Indian, one

28:21

is Asian, like the

28:23

Chinese maybe, and one

28:26

is sounds white. I

28:28

can't remember the names. I'll

28:30

find out the name of the

28:32

thing in a minute. But I

28:34

look on the investor list and

28:36

who are the investors? Jeff Bezos,

28:39

the lady who's the CEO. She

28:41

was the number six employee at

28:43

Google and now she's the CEO

28:45

of YouTube, like the oligarchs, the

28:48

tech oligarchs. And that is what

28:50

they are doing for themselves and

28:52

their friends while they are throwing

28:54

a ceremonial posthumous pardons for a

28:56

brother who could have cared less

28:58

about this pardon. Come on,

29:00

y 'all. I just wanna read, so TikTok

29:02

is back and TikTok just released a

29:04

statement that everybody has to see when

29:06

they go on to TikTok. And the

29:09

statement says, thanks for your patience and

29:11

support. As a result of President Trump's

29:13

efforts, TikTok is back in the U

29:15

.S. You can continue to create, share,

29:17

and discover all the things you love

29:19

on TikTok. He's

29:21

tearing. But it's

29:23

just like him signing the checks. It's

29:25

like him signing the COVID checks. the

29:27

same thing. But hold

29:29

it, you know that he invited

29:31

the TikTok guy to his inauguration and

29:33

the TikTok guy gave him a

29:35

million dollars. And so like, well, boy,

29:37

isn't any of this surprising? I

29:39

don't understand. Listen, shout out to the

29:41

92 % who are not engaging. That's

29:43

why I wouldn't engage in y 'all's

29:45

little inauguration conversation because I'm repping the

29:47

aunties who are not playing with

29:49

this stuff. So

29:52

my news is a

29:54

longer piece that you should

29:56

read that is from

29:58

The Guardian. It is titled...

30:00

Westminster whistleblower how my friend Sergei

30:02

tried to expose the criminal plot

30:05

against Britain and what it highlights

30:07

is a man who came from

30:09

Russia understood early before it was

30:12

popular that Russia was one of

30:14

the first countries to really figure

30:16

out the social media game that

30:19

they had started early on Twitter

30:21

they'd started early on some of

30:23

the original platforms with memes and

30:25

using them to create campaigns

30:28

on information and disinformation. And

30:30

he tried to get this

30:32

information to the British government.

30:34

And the short version is

30:36

that the report about it

30:39

was stopped by none other

30:41

than Boris Johnson, who thought

30:43

that it was just inflammatory

30:45

nonsense that was gonna interfere with

30:48

Brexit. And later people realized what

30:50

had happened, the MPs are upset,

30:52

how did nobody know who was

30:54

protecting? the British government, blah blah

30:56

blah. But I brought it up,

30:58

I mean it's a long article,

31:01

but I brought it up because

31:03

it, two things stuck out to me.

31:05

One is that people saw this coming,

31:07

that the different, disinformation, misinformation work did

31:10

not just like pop out of a

31:12

vacuum, it did not sneak up on

31:14

us. It was, it was not that

31:16

people whose job this is were not

31:19

paying attention. People were paying attention,

31:21

but there was a real

31:23

interest in hiding this information

31:25

from the public hiding it

31:27

from political leaders until we

31:29

get to the point now

31:31

where Elon is actively interfering

31:33

in our politics. Elon is

31:35

actively interfering in the politics

31:38

of the United Kingdom that

31:40

It is not like a hehaha anymore. It

31:42

really is a thing where the information

31:44

is so controlled that it is changing

31:46

politics at a scale that we just

31:48

had not seen before. And it was

31:50

interesting to see this guy be like,

31:52

I tried to tell people. He's like,

31:54

I went to the thing. I sent

31:56

it to this person. They wrote a

31:58

report. They did it. And the reporter

32:00

is even like, you know, she's like,

32:02

I'm trying to figure out what happened

32:05

after you tell people. And I brought

32:07

it here because I do think I

32:09

remember the first time I heard about

32:11

the Russian involvement and it sounded a

32:13

little fruit fruit. Like it sounded like

32:15

a conspiracy theory and da da da

32:17

da da. Like it didn't sound like

32:19

there was legs to it to me.

32:21

I remember hearing Cambridge Analytica and that

32:23

also didn't seem like a conspiracy theory

32:25

but it was my first sort of

32:27

entrance to a scandal of that magnitude.

32:29

I don't think I fully understood the

32:31

impact of it until much later what

32:33

it meant that Trump's people hacked Facebook

32:36

and got to people on a more

32:38

intimate setting until we saw the impact

32:40

of it. And it's why I keep

32:42

saying here and everywhere else people talk

32:44

about Trump as a creation of the

32:46

reality TV. And I think that's only

32:48

partially true. I think that Trump got

32:50

into everybody's house through Facebook in a

32:52

way that we had never imagined because

32:54

you couldn't buy ads in that way

32:56

they hacked it. And the last thing

32:58

I'll say is that there have been

33:00

no consequences for any of these people.

33:02

Trump obviously did what he did. Nothing

33:05

happened to him. The people that hid

33:07

the article or the report in the

33:09

UK are fine. Russia is very much

33:11

still rushing. And we got Trump over

33:13

here talking about he going to buy

33:15

Greenland and Canada's going to be the

33:17

51st state. So, you know, here we

33:19

are. But I wanted to bring it

33:21

because I was really interested. It was

33:23

something I didn't know. Thank you for

33:25

bringing this article. So, this article reminded

33:27

me of Miles Davis and

33:30

Bitches Brew. And Bitches Brew

33:32

is so scary. And what

33:34

makes it scary when you

33:36

hear Miles Davis talk about

33:38

is the silence inside of

33:40

Bitches Brew as a music.

33:42

And when I was reading

33:45

the article, I'm to be

33:47

honest with you because I

33:49

probably have TikTok brain and

33:51

I probably need to, it

33:53

should have probably, it needs

33:55

to be banned in my

33:57

house regardless. It was kind

33:59

of hard for me to

34:01

stick with the article, stick

34:03

with the article. But what

34:05

I noticed was like Miles

34:07

Davis's Bitches Brew, the silence

34:10

was the scary part. So

34:12

each time all this stuff

34:14

would be building up and

34:16

then It's met with silence, that was the chilling

34:18

part. It did remind me of just kind of this

34:20

bigger idea of like white supremacist global solidarity. And I

34:22

think we're seeing it with Trump and Brexit and all

34:24

these different powerful elite men, like still getting along. I

34:26

think you're seeing this kind of like solidarity that even

34:28

things that would harm your own government system, there

34:31

seems to be this kind

34:33

of like transnational. agreement

34:35

that that supersedes laws and borders

34:37

that that this man is trying

34:39

to push up against and they're

34:41

like no we we know we

34:43

we got this your your your

34:46

in over your head that and

34:48

that was kind of scary because

34:50

specifically here in America,

34:52

it is black folks who were

34:54

being most manipulated. A lot of

34:56

the stuff that was happening, Russian

34:59

interference, I know this is about

35:01

the UK, but you know, for

35:03

black Americans, it was our talk

35:05

about race and really creating discord

35:08

where things had no discord. And

35:10

that makes us more unpowerful. So

35:12

again, we're in a situation where

35:14

the most powerful elite. white men,

35:17

their silence is making our pain

35:19

so loud. Yeah, I think two

35:21

things struck me about this. This

35:23

isn't the first time that this

35:26

has happened. I think when I

35:28

was in college, I got to

35:30

meet a guy named Jan Karski,

35:32

and Jan Karski was

35:34

a Polish guy who was

35:36

in the resistance during World

35:39

War II, and he got

35:41

himself to both. the UK and

35:43

the US to the president and

35:45

the prime to meetings with the

35:47

president and the prime minister of

35:49

both to tell them about the horrors

35:51

that were happening in the Holocaust and

35:54

what was really going on with the

35:56

third Reich and both the Brits and

35:58

the Americans were like like, nah,

36:00

probably not. And it took another

36:03

year after he showed up in

36:05

their offices for the Allied forces

36:07

to jump into the fray and

36:10

to really begin to address some

36:12

of those issues. And so I

36:15

wonder what it is that makes

36:17

us not listen to people who

36:19

come out and tell the truth.

36:22

and who risk quite a bit,

36:24

right? I mean, we know what

36:27

the Russians do to people who

36:29

do these things. There are poison

36:31

mass poisonings in other places and

36:34

all kinds of stuff, right? And

36:36

so the risk is high and

36:39

we're like, yeah, no, probably not.

36:41

And Boris Johnson, for his efforts,

36:43

resigned and disgrace as the prime

36:46

minister, you know, was not reelected.

36:48

His party took the biggest political

36:51

whopping. in like British history and

36:53

you know he's probably making money

36:55

somewhere writing books and doing whatever

36:58

and the world's electoral systems are

37:00

jacked. Thanks Boris. Thanks. Yeah and

37:02

to Miles's point about being scary

37:05

there's a there's a part in

37:07

the article that says The threat

37:10

level from Russia has only gone

37:12

up. There are many people, myself

37:14

included, who believe we are already

37:17

at war with Russia. Last month,

37:19

Richard Moore, the head of M16,

37:22

said in 37 years in the

37:24

intelligence profession, I've never seen the

37:26

world in such a dangerous state.

37:29

The staggeringly reckless campaign of Russian

37:31

sabotage believed to include cutting underwater

37:34

internet cables is just one alarming

37:36

and tactic. Norway has issued its

37:38

citizens with emergency instructions and I

37:41

guess Sweden has done the same.

37:43

So I think it's also, this

37:46

is all happening. What, I think

37:48

in our minds, I know in

37:50

my mind having lived now, not

37:53

personally lived through wars, but been

37:55

a witness to our imperialist country

37:58

being in war and supportive. wars

38:00

in various places, I

38:02

think of just sort of

38:04

violence and bomb dropping.

38:06

But what Russia is

38:09

engaged in is a completely

38:11

different thing. And when that

38:13

means war, or perhaps

38:16

war is a different

38:18

sort of circumstances now.

38:20

keeping people stupid, stupid, keeping people

38:22

arguing about things, making populations weaker. Dore,

38:24

I don't know, I'm probably gonna say

38:27

this person's name, and like you probably

38:29

know them, but this also reminded me

38:31

of rolling Farrow's Catch and Kill book,

38:33

and it goes about espionage, and it

38:35

kind of cracked open a lot of

38:38

stuff that I think people think is

38:40

just, like it reads like spy movies,

38:42

like a spy movie, and so does

38:44

his book, and into your point D.

38:47

Are that is, we, we, we. We

38:49

in for them Russians ain't

38:51

playing I'm I'm I'm I'm

38:53

I'm taking a south for

38:56

my news today At this

38:58

point everyone should know how

39:00

much I love New Orleans

39:02

and how much it's like

39:05

a second home to me

39:07

And I was there this

39:09

earlier this week and the

39:12

city is preparing for

39:14

the Super Bowl And you know

39:16

I'm in New Orleans for a

39:18

lot of big things all the

39:21

time. Jazz Fest, Mardi Gras, book

39:23

like all sorts of things. But

39:25

it was just interesting because conversation

39:27

with some family members there, we

39:29

were talking about you know what's

39:32

going to happen to the unhouse

39:34

population of New Orleans. And you

39:36

know someone was like well they're

39:38

just going to they're just going

39:40

to remove all of them. And

39:43

I was like what? I was

39:45

like, no, no, no, no, no,

39:47

that can't, that can't be a

39:49

thing. Literally, the very next day,

39:51

I was driving to the gym,

39:53

as Doree does, at 6 a.m.

39:56

in the morning, and there were

39:58

police cars galore. huge

40:00

buses, etc. and you could

40:02

see them moving people and

40:04

then also dismantling people, their

40:06

belongings and their setups, etc.

40:08

And so it just, I

40:10

don't know, and just we've

40:12

been talking about homelessness so

40:14

much and just sort of

40:16

just how homelessness is increasing

40:18

and the income gap is

40:20

becoming more and more staggering.

40:22

So I guess just to

40:24

see this in real life

40:26

and to know that it

40:28

was supported. by this wackadoo

40:31

governor in Louisiana. And

40:33

then also by the city and

40:35

the mayor, quite frankly. And then

40:38

what they're doing is they

40:40

bought a six million, they

40:42

paid somebody for this kind of

40:44

warehouse, but it looks more

40:46

like an airplane hanger, six

40:48

million dollars, and then they're

40:50

going to put those who

40:52

say, who are willing, put

40:54

them there. But it's all

40:56

temporary. for

40:59

the Super Bowl. Honey, can

41:01

I give you one better?

41:03

Listen, I live in Washington

41:06

DC. So do you. Go

41:08

commanders. We are one game

41:10

away from the Super Bowl.

41:12

But on Monday I was

41:14

in downtown Washington DC where

41:16

they were doing exactly. For

41:18

inauguration. two and three big

41:20

police people moving homeless people

41:23

there were no buses I

41:25

don't know where they were

41:27

taking the people but they

41:29

were dismantling their stuff moving

41:31

homeless people physically so they could

41:33

put up these fences and so

41:35

that your friends can have the

41:37

inauguration that they are having these

41:39

people are not playing with us

41:41

y'all there is no they are

41:43

doing whatever they need to and

41:45

want to do for their pump

41:47

and pageantry and we will always bear

41:50

the brunt of this. Yes, it

41:52

doesn't surprise me that, you

41:54

know, that homeless people are moved

41:56

for the commercial success of a

41:58

corporation or an event. What this

42:00

did make me think of, because so

42:02

many people are closer to broke than

42:04

ever before, is how the more broke

42:07

we are, just nationally, culturally, the more

42:09

we have disdain for people who are

42:11

even broker. So there's actually, so I

42:13

feel this weird, and I almost put

42:15

it in the, I might have put

42:17

it in the group chat, but there's

42:19

like these like Gen Z men telling

42:22

other Gen Z men how to be

42:24

homeless, like these, and stuff, like it's

42:26

a viral thing going on about Gen

42:28

Z men. just kind of giving up

42:30

on the the 9-5 life or whatever

42:32

and of course it's very is very

42:35

is very white and it's very man

42:37

in the men in the woods but

42:39

it made me think about how So

42:41

that's one thing just around homelessness, but

42:43

it also just made me think about

42:45

how just like the average non-20 year

42:47

old homelessness is taking in and how

42:50

we just don't like homeless people as

42:52

a culture because it is a reminder

42:54

of our proximity to from the disaster.

42:56

So we don't look at homeless people.

42:58

We make excuses why they're there. We

43:00

build narratives about them that we don't

43:02

know are true, but we inject them

43:05

into those people circumstances to create distance.

43:07

that won't ever happen to me because

43:09

I'm out on drugs. That didn't happen

43:11

to me because I went to college.

43:13

That's what happened. But then what it

43:15

made me think of, this is the

43:17

kicker, it reminded me that Jim Jones

43:20

bust a whole bunch of homeless people

43:22

to the cult. And I don't know

43:24

why I've been on this cult kick.

43:26

because there is an uptick, there is

43:28

different things that were not cultish, that

43:30

are now becoming cultish, because of individualism

43:33

and us not being together, so there's

43:35

just more space for cult-like things to

43:37

be activated, and it reminds me how

43:39

there are always gonna be people who

43:41

draw a power. because of these circumstances.

43:43

So not this, I mean, I don't

43:45

know, but that is what it made

43:48

me think of as the more people

43:50

are looking to disappear homeless people. There's

43:52

gonna be people who are. are

43:54

willing to wield

43:56

that kind of human

43:58

capital for their

44:00

own gains. And while

44:03

we're seeing upticks

44:05

and cult -like institutions, it

44:09

scares me to think about what the possibilities are

44:11

with those two things in our air. Like it's

44:13

the 70s. I think

44:15

what was stuck out to

44:18

me about this was also in

44:20

addition to what has already been said, was

44:22

around the storytelling about homelessness. I think

44:24

that the story that so many people have

44:26

is like sort of piggyback up with

44:28

you seven miles. It's like, you know what?

44:30

They made all these crazy choices. They

44:32

were lazy. They were addicted to drugs. They

44:34

did it. And you're like, you know,

44:37

I know a lot of people that are

44:39

one paycheck away from also being sleeping on

44:41

somebody's couch or trying to figure

44:43

out a way to sleep. That when

44:45

you think about the minimum wage,

44:47

you think about prices going up, like

44:49

being homeless is actually, you know, a

44:52

result of rising costs. And you know, the

44:54

number of people who live in cars and

44:56

families, I remember when I worked in the

44:58

school system in Baltimore, we had a lot

45:01

of homeless kids and it was not this

45:03

idea that there were all these families who,

45:05

you know, everybody was lazy and did that.

45:07

That wasn't, that's just not true, but that

45:09

is so much of what the story is

45:11

that people think about. So their lack of

45:13

sympathy is rooted in this idea that why

45:15

should we help you? Cause you made all

45:17

these crazy decisions or you didn't want to

45:19

work and did it up. And that is

45:22

the story as well that the right tells.

45:24

So whether, you know, the child

45:26

tax credit or, you know, food

45:28

stamps, their only story is people

45:30

take advantage of it and they're

45:32

buying tennis shoes and you're like,

45:34

the data never supports that. But

45:37

part of it is our storytelling

45:39

has to tell a more nuanced

45:41

story around how people end up

45:43

in these situations. And as we

45:45

all know on this podcast, people

45:47

are one, two checks away from

45:50

deep, deep financial instability, no fault

45:52

of their own. That's right. And

45:54

just to correct myself, this site

45:57

where they're sending folks to New

45:59

Orleans. Cost the state

46:01

16.2 million to operate for

46:03

90 days and there's no

46:06

plan for what happens after

46:08

They couldn't they couldn't

46:10

build they couldn't build

46:12

houses with that 16.2

46:15

million dollars indirect your

46:17

friend um your friend

46:19

in very like influential

46:21

youtuber who I love

46:23

Ola Ola yeah, sorry

46:25

she discussed Just because we're

46:27

talking about the homeless population that that

46:30

story that went kind of viral around

46:32

the man Setting the woman on a

46:34

woman on fire so she so I

46:36

was I was listen it was her

46:38

video that taught me that a the

46:40

woman who he said on fire was

46:43

homeless as well, that she had went

46:45

to college, that she was in her

46:47

50, like it was a set of

46:49

circumstances that had happened, I think, in

46:51

the last 10 years of her life,

46:54

that set her up to be homeless.

46:56

And I think it's interesting that that

46:58

side of the story is so suppressed. And

47:00

the framing of it, and that reminded me

47:02

of what you were saying. And I read other,

47:05

just the last thing on it. I was reading

47:07

other articles that were interviewing

47:09

some of the folks in

47:11

these encampments in these encampments.

47:13

have been homeless because of

47:15

prior hurricanes. So whether it

47:17

was Katrina or Ida, etc.

47:19

So it's also, I think

47:21

there is gonna be more of

47:24

sort of like the environmental, these

47:26

disasters that are happening

47:28

and we'll see in

47:31

LA that are leaving so many

47:33

people without homes and we

47:35

have, there is no plan for

47:38

them. Don't go anywhere, more

47:40

positive people's coming. Now,

47:42

what do you want

47:44

the story of your

47:46

2025 to be? 2024

47:48

to me was like

47:50

a rebuild, get it

47:52

together. 2025, I want

47:54

my story for 2025

47:56

to be steady ship

47:58

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49:28

a quote today. Restrictions apply. My

49:36

news this week is

49:38

also taking place in

49:40

the south. It's sad.

49:42

Listen, I feel like

49:45

I'm angry Kaia this

49:47

week and I'm not

49:49

really angry. I don't

49:51

know what my problem

49:54

is. This to me

49:56

makes me angry. This

49:58

I feel like I

50:00

have a right to

50:03

be angry about. But

50:05

these are about our

50:07

cousins in the Mississippi

50:09

Delta and most of

50:12

us believe that the United States has

50:14

rid itself of parasites like hookworm and tapeworm

50:16

and all of these things that people used

50:18

to suffer from but this report tells us

50:21

that lots of the babies in the Mississippi

50:23

Delta not just babies people young people children

50:25

old people whatever are have widespread intestinal

50:27

infections and parasites that they

50:30

are suffering from on a

50:32

daily basis is keeping kids

50:35

out of schools, keeping people

50:37

out of work. In fact, we

50:40

thought that because we

50:42

had invested in sanitation

50:44

and public health that

50:46

people weren't suffering with

50:48

these things, but in

50:50

fact... About 12 million

50:52

Americans are believed to

50:54

have neglected parasitic infections.

50:56

They're called neglected because

50:58

of their prevalence, they're

51:00

disabling symptoms, and their links to

51:02

poverty. The illnesses spread through contaminated

51:05

water and contact with feces

51:07

and tend to thrive in

51:09

high poverty areas with poor

51:11

sanitation systems. So again, through

51:13

no fault of their own

51:16

except the fact that they

51:18

are poor and the fact

51:20

that The politicians don't keep

51:22

up the infrastructure in these

51:24

poor black and brown communities.

51:27

38% of children in the

51:29

initial samples that they

51:31

collected had intestinal

51:34

parasitic infections and

51:36

80% had high

51:38

levels of intestinal

51:40

inflammation, a common

51:43

symptom of parasites.

51:45

This is heartbreaking. Like,

51:47

this is, you know,

51:49

this is like 1920s

51:51

and 30s types of

51:53

problems where, you know,

51:55

raw sewage was running down

51:57

streets and the end. And

52:00

people had no protection from

52:02

that. In the Mississippi Delta, people

52:05

are, you know, there are burst

52:07

pipes, there are water systems that

52:09

break down, and they don't fix

52:11

them. And these children have hot

52:13

burning tummies is what one little

52:16

boy said, his tummy feels like.

52:18

We should be ashamed of ourselves

52:20

that at the very least, we

52:22

can't make sure that people

52:24

have decent... water and

52:26

sanitation services. I remember the

52:29

first time I went to the

52:31

Mississippi Delta and you know I

52:33

went to look at schools in

52:35

the Delta and many of the

52:38

schools had outhouses. I even started

52:40

teaching until 1992 so this

52:42

was the 90s and the 2000s. I

52:44

think it was the 2000s was the

52:46

first time that I went and when

52:49

they were making the Delta a a

52:51

lucrative place for casinos. They were creating

52:53

a gaming center in the Mississippi Delta.

52:55

The politicians were smart enough to say,

52:58

if you are going to make a

53:00

whole bunch of money off of our

53:02

folks, you have to build housing for

53:04

them because they're not going to go

53:07

to your casinos where there's running water

53:09

and sanitation and then go back to

53:11

homes without houses. So you have to

53:13

build housing for them. You have to

53:16

rebuild every school in the Mississippi Delta

53:18

and make sure that it has. you

53:20

know, the appropriate facility so that

53:22

young people can learn. And,

53:24

you know, I thought that

53:27

that was brilliant at the

53:29

time if you're going to

53:31

make these big capitalist you

53:33

know, moves for a community

53:35

at least make sure that

53:37

the community benefits. And here

53:39

we are now in 2025

53:41

and children in the Mississippi

53:43

Delta have intestinal parasites. I

53:45

just, this is heartbreaking and

53:47

while people are focused on

53:49

the inauguration or tick-tock or

53:51

all of these other things, there

53:54

are still little brown babies in

53:56

the Mississippi Delta who don't have

53:59

clean water. There are still people

54:01

in Jackson, Mississippi, which is the capital

54:03

of Mississippi, who still don't have clean

54:05

water. Kay, this was fascinating. I didn't

54:07

know anything about this. I knew about

54:10

Louns County in Alabama, which is the

54:12

place where people often bring this up.

54:14

There was a 2017 landmark study that

54:16

highlighted the more than a third of

54:19

the residents in Alabama's Louns County test

54:21

positive. for trace as a hookworm, but

54:23

one of the things I found interesting...

54:25

We talked about Laos here on... We

54:28

talked about Laos. Do you? I brought

54:30

it. Yeah, so that's what I normally

54:32

think of with this. So I didn't,

54:34

I did not know, I knew Cancer

54:36

Alley, which was another thing we've talked

54:39

about in the podcast. So this was

54:41

interesting. What I, what I thought was

54:43

particularly interesting was the solve for this.

54:45

How do you, so besides fixing the

54:48

water, the sewage, all that stuff, is

54:50

I didn't even think about what happens

54:52

when the problem has been eradicated in

54:54

so much of the country that they're

54:57

not even providers trained to recognize and

54:59

treat this anymore. So, you know, we

55:01

got to fix the water, but you

55:03

think about all the people who are

55:05

impacted, the kids and adults, is that

55:08

they can't even find enough people to

55:10

treat it and recognize it, which is

55:12

like another problem. And that is just

55:14

a reminder of the 360 nature of

55:17

how we need to fix all this

55:19

stuff. And you think about where states

55:21

decide to invest in resources. I refuse

55:23

to believe that if this was a

55:26

white community that they would be letting

55:28

this happen in this way. time. 60%

55:30

of the people are black and as

55:32

Kais said most of them are descendants

55:34

of the formerly enslaved. So I hope

55:37

that this gets more exposure. It reminds

55:39

me too of a documentary that we

55:41

show called The Smell of Money where

55:43

they in North Carolina where the the

55:46

companies are literally spraying pig poop in

55:48

people's front yards out of the sprinklers

55:50

and you're like this only happens in

55:52

low income or black people like this

55:55

is a this is a race thing

55:57

this is a class problem and it's

55:59

wild that people know about it and

56:01

it's still continue. So, you know, but

56:03

like Don said on a podcast not

56:06

too long ago with us, he was

56:08

like, remember that these places were blue

56:10

not too long ago, that we can

56:12

shift political power again, that there are

56:15

a lot of places that we think

56:17

of as staunchly red that were

56:19

once blue. Yeah, this did take

56:21

me back to, to, um, Catherine Fowers,

56:23

who I was introduced to

56:25

and have become, um, just honored

56:27

that she's in my orbit. But

56:30

I remember, Catherine, saying, in

56:32

one of our first conversations,

56:34

she was saying that she

56:36

wasn't feeling well herself, because

56:38

a lot of her time,

56:40

obviously, spent in Loudst County,

56:42

with the impact of folks

56:45

were talking about. And she

56:47

wasn't feeling well. And after

56:49

all these tests, all this blood

56:51

work done, one of her colleagues

56:53

that lives in India said, It

56:55

sounds like you have a

56:57

tropical disease. And she's like, but

57:00

I'm in America, there are no

57:02

tropical diseases here. And he's

57:04

like, well, that's what it

57:06

sounds like you have. And that

57:09

is, in fact, what she had.

57:11

She had gotten bitten by a

57:13

mosquito and had a disease that

57:15

hadn't been around since the

57:17

1900s, early 1900s. And yes, like

57:19

this is what is happening. And

57:21

yeah, I mean. I don't even

57:23

know where to start. I mean,

57:26

I've gotten pulled into like, you

57:28

know, sort of disconnected fundraising

57:30

actions when it's like somebody

57:32

at the church can't flush

57:34

their toilet or somebody at

57:36

the church every time they

57:38

flush their toilet, they have waste.

57:41

in their bathtub. Like it's a reality

57:43

that like folks are living with

57:45

every single day, but to your

57:47

point around solution, this has been

57:49

what Catherine's life's work has been in

57:51

partnership with so many other folks. So

57:53

there is some solution. It's just

57:56

a matter of interest, really, and

57:58

for folks to be prioritized. in

58:00

this way and part of the

58:02

problem is that when you're outside

58:04

of city limits it's actually your

58:06

own well this is the case

58:09

in Loud's County if you're outside

58:11

of sort of the city of

58:13

Montgomery then you have to actually

58:15

pay for and have your own

58:17

septic system and if you can't

58:20

afford to have it or repair

58:22

it and then when all the

58:24

folks that are that you're supposed

58:26

to trust to fix it So,

58:28

but thank you, Kaya, for bringing

58:31

this, because these are just the

58:33

type of issues that... We can't

58:35

let people forget. No, and they

58:37

have to be, they have to

58:39

be front of mind. And it

58:42

all goes, you know, when it

58:44

comes to environmental injustice, but also

58:46

food and accessibility. Like, there's so

58:48

many things that compound people's experiences.

58:50

And that is really where our

58:53

focus needs to be. Thank you

58:55

for bringing this to the... podcast,

58:57

the part of the article that

58:59

got me was in 1971, black

59:01

residents in Shaw successfully argued before

59:04

a federal court that local officials

59:06

practice discrimination by not providing services

59:08

like sewage, drainage, and water, and

59:10

predominantly black neighborhoods. The court ordered

59:12

Shaw officials to submit a plan

59:15

program of improvements that were within

59:17

a reasonable time, remove the disparities

59:19

that bear so heavily on the

59:21

black citizens of Shaw. And then

59:23

the article like later goes on

59:26

to go into a little bit

59:28

of like a like a Trump

59:30

critique, but I think that paragraph

59:32

shows that this is an American

59:35

government critique. And I think sometimes

59:37

we can see things that happen

59:39

in Palestine right now with our

59:41

own eyes and see the kind

59:43

of like lethal visual brutality of

59:46

it and say that is awful.

59:48

But America has its own system

59:50

to disappear. It's unwanted people too.

59:52

And we know that attacking health.

59:54

health and if you if you

59:57

if if you somehow survive a

59:59

childhood of bad water then that

1:00:01

is the ailments that you'll have

1:00:03

the cognitive repercussions you'll have that

1:00:05

totally only make you able to

1:00:08

be a mule of like hard

1:00:10

labor. So we have our own

1:00:12

genocidal ways that are often just

1:00:14

codified and protected around systems in

1:00:16

their bloodless but they're still

1:00:19

deadly and that's what this

1:00:21

article reminds me of so thank

1:00:23

you Antikaya for we got to

1:00:25

know you know Um, okay, I'm

1:00:28

the Raya Sunshine this week. Bring

1:00:30

it, baby. We need it. I

1:00:32

wanted to, so there is so

1:00:34

much going on in the music

1:00:36

industry, and I don't, I know

1:00:38

that you all know this, but

1:00:41

it just bears repeating that there

1:00:43

is so much music out. We

1:00:45

are interacting with more music than

1:00:47

we've ever had before, and sometimes

1:00:49

it is hard to. to figure

1:00:51

out what's worth listening to. You

1:00:53

know, I know for me, I'm

1:00:56

over here always listening to Lea

1:00:58

Team Price and Miles Davis because

1:01:00

I don't want to waste my

1:01:02

time listening to two hours of

1:01:04

mumbling to get to a good

1:01:06

song. I'm like, hold on, hold

1:01:08

on, we don't know what's going

1:01:10

on. I'm like, hold on, I

1:01:12

don't know what's going on, I

1:01:14

don't want to waste my time,

1:01:16

listen to two hours of mumbling

1:01:18

to get to a young. female,

1:01:20

um, bear to say, dark skin,

1:01:23

black rapper, who's been making waves

1:01:25

with her new, um, mixtape actually,

1:01:27

um, called Alligator Bites Never Heel.

1:01:30

So she made a huge wave.

1:01:32

The actual news is her music

1:01:34

video is for a song called

1:01:37

The Nile is a River. The

1:01:39

theme of the music video is

1:01:41

based around Family Matters. It features

1:01:43

Zach Fox and Ricky Thompson. I

1:01:46

thought this was... Interesting

1:01:48

take because Gilil White was just

1:01:50

in the news for saying that

1:01:52

in black people in the grand

1:01:54

black imagination, Family Matters is not

1:01:57

seen as one of those black

1:01:59

coveted sitcoms. And then a young

1:02:01

black rapper uses it as a theme.

1:02:03

So I'm like, that disproves that.

1:02:05

But what I also thought was interesting

1:02:07

is the whole Denial's A River,

1:02:09

which is a really great song where

1:02:11

it reminds me of Slick Rick.

1:02:13

There's a dougie fresh kind of illusions

1:02:15

inside of the songs too. But

1:02:18

she's telling the story about her own

1:02:21

toxic relationships, addictions,

1:02:24

just who she was

1:02:26

as her shadow self. And

1:02:29

it's interesting because Jaleel

1:02:31

White will say, who played

1:02:33

Urkel, will say that the

1:02:35

thing about family matters that makes

1:02:37

it unique in a bad way

1:02:39

is that the writer room was

1:02:41

white, all white. And a lot

1:02:43

of the humor that Urkel was

1:02:45

doing was white boy humor. And

1:02:47

a lot of the things that

1:02:50

made family matters maybe stick out

1:02:52

culturally next to maybe living single

1:02:54

and Martin was because there was

1:02:56

just no input by black writers

1:02:58

or black creators. And I think

1:03:00

that that stands out. So I

1:03:02

thought it was funny that a

1:03:05

song, excuse me, a video to illustrate

1:03:07

a song used the theme of

1:03:09

family matters, which there's just something

1:03:11

in the idea that she wasn't

1:03:13

able to be the producer and

1:03:15

director of her own life. And

1:03:18

she used a show that is

1:03:20

just famous for just not having

1:03:22

any kind of like control or

1:03:24

black control or creativity or pioneering

1:03:26

in it. And I thought there

1:03:28

was something metaphorical about that. Or

1:03:32

I could just be thinking about

1:03:34

it too hard, but I like

1:03:37

thinking about things too hard when

1:03:39

it's good music and it's good,

1:03:41

interesting, thought -provoking lyrics and visuals. She

1:03:43

did a video where she, excuse

1:03:45

me, she did a performance where

1:03:47

she uses her hair and connects

1:03:49

it that kind of alludes to

1:03:52

this performance that it's launched for

1:03:54

SNL. She dons Gucci, which has

1:03:56

been specifically since Dapper Dan's Renaissance

1:03:58

has been the kind of for a

1:04:00

black solidarity. So Gucci kind of computes

1:04:02

something to our imaginations. I even think

1:04:04

about Beyonce wearing all Gucci and formation.

1:04:06

Gucci is just something that... I don't

1:04:09

know, it just has become a different

1:04:11

type of symbolism in the last 10

1:04:13

years about black solidarity and reinvention, so

1:04:15

she's in the head to Toguchi and

1:04:17

she's just doing really cool things and

1:04:19

also using black culture and black art

1:04:21

as the palate, which I also think

1:04:23

we're thirsty for. I think it's been

1:04:25

a minute since we've seen somebody really

1:04:27

use black culture as their palate. It

1:04:30

really is Kendra Kamara was the last

1:04:32

person to do it, and before that

1:04:34

it just seemed to not be involved

1:04:36

to do. So it also feels good

1:04:38

to see people saying, I'm gonna use

1:04:40

this sitcom to make a commentary in

1:04:42

this hairstyle and this type of sonic

1:04:44

influence and I'm gonna create something that's

1:04:46

new and innovative, but it could still

1:04:48

be black because for a minute it

1:04:51

felt like in order to be a

1:04:53

vongard in the mainstream you had to

1:04:55

be. white as well and though she

1:04:57

is just somebody who's just pushing up

1:04:59

against that I wanted to hopefully get

1:05:01

you interested enough to press play because

1:05:03

these people are getting paid 0.01% on

1:05:05

each play and I want to make

1:05:07

sure that she's funded to let her

1:05:09

Just let her imagination go free because

1:05:12

we need that, we need that Missy

1:05:14

Elliott, we need that Lauren Hill, we

1:05:16

need that Calice, we need alternative black

1:05:18

creativities to show us alternative black realities.

1:05:20

And usually when the world feels a

1:05:22

little bit boring, it's because we haven't

1:05:24

given enough weird black people money. So

1:05:26

please give her your spends in your

1:05:28

love. I feel you on that, Miles.

1:05:30

Thank you. I do, I support black

1:05:33

weirdness. I support black imagination. I feel

1:05:35

like those are the people who take

1:05:37

us to another place. She came to

1:05:39

my attention. I saw a picture of

1:05:41

her with. the, with

1:05:43

the, yeah, the, I

1:05:45

don't even, the

1:05:47

taped eyes. I don't

1:05:49

know what you

1:05:51

call them. But that

1:05:54

I didn't realize,

1:05:56

I mean, I guess

1:05:58

I sort of

1:06:00

realized that like a

1:06:02

lot of these

1:06:04

young ladies are taping

1:06:06

their eyes back

1:06:08

underneath their wigs. And

1:06:10

she's like, yeah,

1:06:12

I'm just gonna look

1:06:14

different and do

1:06:17

it, I'm not gonna

1:06:19

hide it, I'm

1:06:21

just gonna be it.

1:06:24

And, you know, my people are mad

1:06:26

cause I really want a set

1:06:28

of grills. And they're like, no, no, as

1:06:30

a 54 year old, you're not gonna get a set of grills.

1:06:32

must, you must, you must, and I don't even

1:06:34

know what it like it's whims gold. Come

1:06:37

on. It was like, why

1:06:39

can't we express ourselves in creative

1:06:41

ways and do the thing?

1:06:43

And so I have, I have

1:06:45

seen her blow up. I

1:06:47

have not heard her music, but

1:06:49

I, I'm with you. I

1:06:51

will, Miles. Thank you for the

1:06:54

pre -vet. Feel free to send

1:06:56

anybody else my way who,

1:06:58

cause I, look, I got less

1:07:00

time than you to waste.

1:07:02

So send anybody my way who

1:07:04

passes your gate. I appreciate

1:07:06

that. And I'm, I'm about it.

1:07:08

I really do, I'm like, oh,

1:07:10

this little girl is so cute.

1:07:13

She's pretty. She is avant -garde.

1:07:15

She is, she got a white

1:07:17

alligator. Maybe it's an albino alligator.

1:07:19

Not to the girl B. Yeah,

1:07:21

yeah, I'm down. I'm, I'm excited

1:07:23

to get into this. And don't

1:07:25

worry, make sure that the aunties

1:07:27

get a good dose of it

1:07:29

too, so that we can be

1:07:31

broadly supported. Cause we need y 'all

1:07:33

to be supported too. Cause y 'all actually do

1:07:35

the things. 'all, y 'all won't, y 'all won't cancel

1:07:37

in two weeks. Y 'all won't cancel in two

1:07:39

weeks because she said the wrong, we need

1:07:41

that good auntie support. Yeah,

1:07:43

we in. 100%.

1:07:46

Absolutely. I

1:07:50

first learned about her because she

1:07:52

did it in NPR Tiny Desk

1:07:54

that I saved and play on

1:07:56

repeat. Yeah,

1:07:59

and that's how this. Auntie learns about some of

1:08:01

the young folks today is on

1:08:03

Tiny Desk. So shout out to

1:08:05

the producers of Tiny Desk. Shout

1:08:07

out to Michelle Montano, the first

1:08:09

SOCA artist to have a Tiny

1:08:12

Desk concert last week, and he

1:08:14

crushed it. Yo, out. Now I

1:08:16

gotta watch that. I gotta watch

1:08:18

that. Double M. I

1:08:21

came to Dochi because of the Katy Perry collab.

1:08:24

So I am pumped to

1:08:26

continue to learn about her. She's very cool. I

1:08:28

knew her, like, I knew she was a thing on Twitter,

1:08:30

but I didn't know any music, and then she did that collab

1:08:32

with Katy, and I was like, oh, this is a bop.

1:08:34

This is a bop. And now you start

1:08:36

to pay attention, because it's Katy Perry.

1:08:39

We got to fix that show. We're gonna,

1:08:41

yeah. We're gonna, exactly. I was like,

1:08:43

I didn't hear. Yeah, was like, we're gonna

1:08:45

forget her for that one. But it's all

1:08:47

right. You make your coin, sis.

1:08:49

And just, what she was

1:08:51

saying, Auntie Kaya about the tape

1:08:53

and the exposing of it,

1:08:56

I love her doing that, because then

1:08:58

when you see it, it becomes

1:09:00

commentary. It becomes like, what is that?

1:09:02

Why is she doing that? Oh,

1:09:04

she's exposing what everybody's doing in order

1:09:06

to get this kind of like,

1:09:08

new Eurocentric multicultural look, and she's actually

1:09:10

making a commentary on it by

1:09:13

exposing it, which is like, interesting. That's

1:09:15

interesting. Yeah, yeah, let's talk

1:09:17

about it. Hey friends, Ted

1:09:19

Danson here, and I wanna let

1:09:21

you know about my new podcast. It's

1:09:23

called Where Everybody Knows Your Name,

1:09:25

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1:09:28

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1:09:30

a chance for me and my

1:09:32

good bud, Woody, to reconnect after Cheers

1:09:34

Wrap 30 years ago. Plus, we're

1:09:36

introducing each other to the friends we've

1:09:38

met since, like Jane Fonda, Conan

1:09:40

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1:09:42

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So why wait? Listen to where

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podcast is supported by... Comedy Central's

1:10:00

Emmy Award winning series The Daily Show.

1:10:02

John Stewart and the Daily Show news

1:10:05

team are kicking off 2025 with brand

1:10:07

new episodes, covering a brand new administration

1:10:09

and a not quite brand new president.

1:10:11

While it may feel like we've all

1:10:13

been here before, it's never been covered

1:10:15

like this, with John Stewart behind the

1:10:17

desk kicking off every week. Comedy Central's

1:10:20

The Daily Show, new tonight at 11

1:10:22

on Comedy Central and streaming next day

1:10:24

on Paramount Plus. Naomi

1:10:29

and Andrew thanks so much

1:10:31

for joining us today on

1:10:33

positive people. Thank you so much

1:10:35

for having us. It's nice to

1:10:38

you, Drey. Thank you. Now I

1:10:40

met you, Naomi at a conference

1:10:42

which feels like 8,000 years ago,

1:10:44

but it wasn't. And when you

1:10:46

talked to me about the work

1:10:48

of the organizational whistleblowers, I was

1:10:51

fascinated. Can you both... Tell us

1:10:53

how you got to this work.

1:10:55

Was it? Did you grow up

1:10:57

being like, I saw a whistleblower

1:10:59

movie and this is going to

1:11:02

be my work? Or like, what

1:11:04

was you? Was there an experience?

1:11:06

Help us understand your story and

1:11:08

how you got here. So I

1:11:11

came into whistleblower aid after three

1:11:13

decades in accountability work. I had

1:11:15

launched media matters. I had launched

1:11:18

crew. I worked in. gun safety,

1:11:20

go undercover to NRA conventions

1:11:22

and gun shows. And I

1:11:25

never, I never thought that

1:11:27

I would become a whistleblower

1:11:29

myself after, you know, we

1:11:32

represented a crew gallery plane

1:11:34

and her husband. But I

1:11:36

was working as a communications

1:11:39

director in Mayor Garcetti's

1:11:41

office in Los

1:11:43

Angeles and I

1:11:45

witnessed and experienced

1:11:47

sexual harassment. an

1:11:49

inappropriate touching at the mayor's

1:11:51

office and the mayor had

1:11:53

enabled it for years and

1:11:55

years and I did become

1:11:57

a whistleblower out of that.

1:12:00

office. I was lucky enough to

1:12:02

work with whistleblower aid when they

1:12:04

represented me in my case. And

1:12:07

when I was done with that

1:12:09

case, I felt so passionate about

1:12:11

what they were doing and who

1:12:14

they were helping and really taking

1:12:16

on those big institutions and leaders

1:12:18

that I knew that I had

1:12:21

to be a part of it.

1:12:23

I joined up and what's so

1:12:26

extraordinary about it is I now

1:12:28

have the opportunity to really support

1:12:30

the whistleblowers that were going through

1:12:33

the journey I went through, but

1:12:35

to be able to relay the

1:12:37

kinds of experiences and best practices

1:12:40

and help them really get through

1:12:42

that journey in a way that

1:12:44

they feel whole afterwards. Boom, what

1:12:47

about you Andrew? So my path

1:12:49

to working at whistleblower aid in

1:12:52

this space is actually quite interesting

1:12:54

because when I first started working

1:12:56

for the Department of Defense years

1:12:59

ago, I was there as a

1:13:01

whistleblower retaliation investigator. And I effectively

1:13:03

in that job developed the legal

1:13:06

and investigative framework to protect whistleblowers

1:13:08

for members of the Defense Intelligence

1:13:10

Community, those had security clearances, etc.

1:13:13

and that work formed the basis

1:13:15

for a president or policy directive

1:13:17

that President Obama signed in 2012

1:13:20

and that expanded whistleblower protections to

1:13:22

members of the intelligence community overall.

1:13:25

And I then transitioned from DOD

1:13:27

to work at CIA at Darren

1:13:29

Specter General's office and I developed

1:13:32

basically the investigative framework for that

1:13:34

office to comply with what the

1:13:36

president mandated. That was based on

1:13:39

my work in part at DoD

1:13:41

Hedges. So it's one of those

1:13:43

things where I didn't go into

1:13:46

work in the federal government to

1:13:48

work in the space. I fell

1:13:51

into it and then really fell

1:13:53

in love with the work in

1:13:55

representing those people who have are

1:13:58

brave and want to come forward

1:14:00

when they see something wrong. And

1:14:02

then like Naomi, when I was

1:14:05

at CIA, I also saw some

1:14:07

issues that were not very good

1:14:09

and became a whistleblower myself. And

1:14:12

then relied on the very regulations

1:14:14

that I developed to blow the

1:14:16

whistle. So there we have it

1:14:19

on all sides of this. Creating

1:14:21

the program, investigating on behalf of

1:14:24

whistleblowers, now representing them

1:14:26

presenting them. Boom.

1:14:28

Well, let's zoom all the way

1:14:30

out. And can you help define,

1:14:32

like, what is a whistleblower? So

1:14:34

you all leave whistleblower aid, you

1:14:37

work with whistleblowers. Is there like

1:14:39

a common definition of, like, a

1:14:41

whistleblower? And I ask because I

1:14:43

can imagine that some people are

1:14:45

like, oh, there are people that

1:14:47

complain about their workplace, that feels

1:14:49

different than people who are whistleblowers

1:14:51

or, you know, in the news,

1:14:53

one of the ways to discredit

1:14:55

people is that they're disgruntled employee.

1:14:57

That potentially feels different than what you

1:14:59

might define as a whistleblower. So what

1:15:02

is a whistleblower? So that's a really

1:15:04

great question because what is

1:15:06

foundational is what is a

1:15:08

whistleblower. So the organization whistleblower

1:15:10

aid was initially created to

1:15:12

protect whistleblowers and facilitate whistleblowers

1:15:14

from the who worked in

1:15:16

the federal government or who

1:15:18

worked in the federal government,

1:15:20

particularly those who work on

1:15:22

national security issues. And there

1:15:24

is a difference. by law with what

1:15:26

when somebody is a whistleblower

1:15:29

versus a leaker. But when you work with

1:15:31

journalists and other individuals the

1:15:33

term whistleblowing could be broader.

1:15:36

And that created some confusion

1:15:38

actually years ago when I was

1:15:41

developing the program particularly at CIA

1:15:43

because for example to some an

1:15:45

individual like Edward Snowden could be

1:15:48

viewed as a whistleblower because he

1:15:50

exposed issues that he felt were

1:15:52

wrong when he was working in

1:15:54

the government. But the government

1:15:57

would view him as a leaker and not

1:15:59

it was. because he mishandled classified

1:16:01

information and there were other ways

1:16:03

to come forward with it to

1:16:06

ensure that you're protected as a

1:16:08

whistleblower. So what we do is

1:16:10

we try and ensure that when

1:16:13

we get a client coming into

1:16:15

whistleblower aid, that one, we follow

1:16:17

the appropriate process to get the

1:16:19

information out. One, it protects them

1:16:22

from retaliation, right? And that's why

1:16:24

whistleblower blowing and that term that

1:16:26

the lawyers use is important. I use

1:16:29

in my work. because then that's protected.

1:16:31

And then two, we do

1:16:33

it in such a way, and

1:16:35

Naomi is instrumental in this, where

1:16:38

we can get not only the

1:16:40

information to the appropriate investigators or

1:16:42

regulators for investigation, but

1:16:44

depending on the case, it could

1:16:46

be something that we can work

1:16:49

through with Congress and get it

1:16:51

to the general public because there

1:16:53

are cases, instances that we've handled

1:16:55

where, yes, it's important for, let's

1:16:58

say the SEC or some. federal

1:17:00

government agency to investigate. But people

1:17:02

in Congress, members of Congress, and

1:17:04

the general public, need to know. The

1:17:06

best example that I can come up

1:17:08

with, frankly, from our or no experience,

1:17:11

is the Francis Hagen case. She

1:17:13

was the Facebook whistleblower. Yes, the

1:17:15

information that she brought forward that

1:17:17

went to the government for investigation,

1:17:19

absolutely critical. It's going to take

1:17:22

time for the government for the

1:17:24

for the executive branch to

1:17:26

investigate. But getting it to

1:17:28

Congress. having those public discussions

1:17:30

about, for example, how online social

1:17:33

media affects kids is a conversation

1:17:35

that everybody should have, every parent

1:17:37

should have at home. And so it

1:17:39

shouldn't be just something that goes

1:17:41

to a regulatory agency. It's a

1:17:43

conversation's dialogue that has to be

1:17:46

had more broadly. And that's where

1:17:48

Naomi's really instrumental in her work

1:17:50

to help elevate the disclosure, help

1:17:52

elevate what the whistleblower is coming

1:17:55

forward with. Let's talk to

1:17:57

me about the work of

1:17:59

whistleblower aid. How does it actually

1:18:01

work? Do people come to the building

1:18:03

to file a complaint? Do people call

1:18:05

you? Do people email? Like, how's the,

1:18:07

what's the what? How do people get

1:18:09

to you? Sure. You

1:18:11

know, people come to us through

1:18:13

word of mouth through reading about us

1:18:15

in the media and just through

1:18:17

our different networks. We have had, you

1:18:19

know, because I was a whistleblower

1:18:22

myself, we have other folks that come

1:18:24

to me because I think, oh,

1:18:26

well, she'll know something about this or

1:18:28

come to Andrew or come to

1:18:30

our CEO, Libby Lou, because we've been

1:18:32

working around these issues for so

1:18:34

long. And when they come to us,

1:18:36

they come to us in a

1:18:38

variety of ways, right? They'll email us,

1:18:41

which we don't respond to emails

1:18:43

because we need to make sure that

1:18:45

we are safely corresponding

1:18:48

with - Yes,

1:18:50

we need to be

1:18:52

very careful because we are

1:18:55

up against really powerful

1:18:57

institutions, powerful leaders who have

1:18:59

a lot to lose.

1:19:01

And so we wanna be

1:19:03

extraordinarily safe with our

1:19:05

whistleblowers and potential clients. So

1:19:07

we communicate with our

1:19:09

whistleblowers on signal. So we

1:19:11

make sure that we

1:19:14

have a very safe app

1:19:16

to do that on

1:19:18

and we have an intake

1:19:20

process. So we have

1:19:22

a very pretty stringent vetting

1:19:24

process because people come

1:19:26

in and we know that

1:19:28

they'll come in with

1:19:30

all, which we were just

1:19:32

talking about before about

1:19:35

whistleblowers that come from all

1:19:37

sorts of places with

1:19:39

all sorts of experiences. And

1:19:41

some of those are

1:19:43

whistleblowing experiences and some of

1:19:45

them aren't. So first

1:19:47

we determine, are they actually

1:19:49

a whistleblower? So helpful

1:19:51

that you have that conversation.

1:19:54

And then once we've

1:19:56

determined that, then we've taken

1:19:58

really the whole story

1:20:00

and we only work with

1:20:02

those that are working

1:20:04

in the public interest. So

1:20:06

we will work with

1:20:08

whistleblowers that come from the

1:20:10

public or the private

1:20:13

sector. So government. or a corporation, but

1:20:15

they have to have a public interest goal. So

1:20:17

we only work with about 10% of the whistleblowers

1:20:19

that come to us because we don't have capacity

1:20:21

to work with more than that. We are a

1:20:23

small but mighty organization which would love to grow,

1:20:25

but we really punch above our weight with the

1:20:27

whistleblowers that we do work with, as Andrew mentioned.

1:20:29

Francis Hogan, the anonymous whistleblower that led

1:20:32

to Trump's first impeachment and

1:20:34

the Ukraine matter. Of course,

1:20:36

I was a whistleblower. So,

1:20:38

you know, we have whistleblower

1:20:40

sort of across the continuum,

1:20:43

but they always have at

1:20:45

their heart a public interest

1:20:47

goal. And then once they come

1:20:49

in and once we decide we're

1:20:51

going to work together and they

1:20:53

retain us, then they we develop a

1:20:56

legal disclosure, which is really a

1:20:58

legal narrative, a narrative of their

1:21:00

story with all of the evidence,

1:21:02

whatever evidence they have, and sometimes

1:21:05

they have really strong evidence, and

1:21:07

sometimes they don't. Sometimes they can't

1:21:09

take any documents or anything from

1:21:12

their organizations, right? And so we

1:21:14

work with them and build this

1:21:16

disclosure, and then we decide, and

1:21:19

this is Andrew's job, decide where

1:21:21

is that disclosure going to go?

1:21:23

Is it going to go to the

1:21:25

Department of Justice? Is it going to

1:21:27

go to a local DA's office? Is

1:21:30

it going to the FEC? So we

1:21:32

determine where that is going to have

1:21:34

the most impact because we

1:21:37

are asking for an

1:21:39

investigation. We want them to learn

1:21:41

more about what we've brought to

1:21:43

them. At the same time, we are then

1:21:45

working with media, if it

1:21:47

can be a public. disclosure.

1:21:49

So half of our whistleblowers

1:21:51

are national security whistleblowers. So

1:21:54

because of classified status or

1:21:56

classified documents, you know, they

1:21:58

will never be public. We

1:22:00

will still work with them and

1:22:02

make sure that they are able

1:22:04

to represent it. And then for

1:22:06

the others that can be public,

1:22:08

we're working with a lot of

1:22:10

different mainstream media, whether it's Washington

1:22:12

Post or CNN. And at the

1:22:14

same time, we are also working

1:22:16

with the Hill. So we are

1:22:19

working with Senate and House offices

1:22:21

on the relevant committees. members that

1:22:23

have been really passionate or have

1:22:25

had a strong background in the

1:22:27

issue sets that we're working on

1:22:29

and we help our clients brief

1:22:31

those members and so they are

1:22:33

telling their stories to those members.

1:22:35

So we sort of we have

1:22:37

all of these we do have

1:22:39

some of these spinning plates going

1:22:41

on all the same time. My

1:22:43

job is to make sure that

1:22:46

that is sequenced so that we

1:22:48

can have the largest impact possible

1:22:50

when the disclosure does become public.

1:22:52

and we see it all the

1:22:54

way through, right? So we are

1:22:56

working with them through the disclosure

1:22:58

process, through the members, through all

1:23:00

of the media, and then when

1:23:02

there is, you know, when there's

1:23:04

legislators who say, like, how do

1:23:06

we, how do we solve for

1:23:08

this? Our clients are often very

1:23:10

useful in saying, like, yeah, we

1:23:12

know where the problem is, we

1:23:15

know where the bodies are varied,

1:23:17

and we can help you to

1:23:19

navigate this process so that this

1:23:21

doesn't have to happen to other

1:23:23

people. So, and then we also,

1:23:25

our model is a holistic model,

1:23:27

meaning that we wrap ourselves around

1:23:29

our clients. So we make sure

1:23:31

that they have all the wrap

1:23:33

around services they need. So a

1:23:35

lot of these folks, you know,

1:23:37

they may have no one left

1:23:39

after this process and their best

1:23:42

friend is their dog, and we've

1:23:44

paid that bills. We make sure

1:23:46

that there's mental health services available

1:23:48

to them. if they need them.

1:23:50

Sometimes they need security like in

1:23:52

the Ukraine matter to make sure

1:23:54

that they are they're bodily safe

1:23:56

so we provide that. And then

1:23:58

you know we're talking to them

1:24:00

supporting them making sure that they're

1:24:02

okay through this process because it

1:24:04

can be it's an important one

1:24:06

but it also can be a

1:24:08

very punishing one you know you

1:24:11

can be ostracized and retaliated against

1:24:13

and you know it does shake up your

1:24:15

world. Having said that you know our

1:24:17

goal is to make sure that we

1:24:19

give them all the support they need

1:24:21

you know from beginning to end and

1:24:23

after. Now

1:24:26

this is just a this is like

1:24:28

a question I have about logistics because

1:24:30

I don't know the answer do people

1:24:32

so say I'm working somewhere and I'm

1:24:34

like wow something illegal or wild

1:24:36

is happening and I need to report

1:24:39

it do people normally come to you

1:24:41

before they file like something internally or

1:24:43

do they come to you afterwards like

1:24:45

how does that I'm like I don't

1:24:48

I don't know how it works right

1:24:50

that's actually important because ideally

1:24:52

they come to us before

1:24:54

they do anything Often, it's

1:24:56

not atypical where somebody will

1:24:58

already have done something where

1:25:00

they've either filed a disclosure

1:25:02

or maybe talked to a

1:25:05

member of the media. And

1:25:07

sometimes what they've done is

1:25:09

okay. Sometimes it's not. We

1:25:11

can't unring certain bells. So

1:25:13

they can come to us

1:25:15

early on. We can make

1:25:17

sure that their disclosure process

1:25:20

is lawful, that they're protected

1:25:22

from retaliation. they made

1:25:25

a misstep. That's a big

1:25:27

part of it, right? So it's also

1:25:29

about going about it the right

1:25:31

way, finding the appropriate door to

1:25:33

enter, to go through to make

1:25:36

that disclosure, and then yes, when

1:25:38

we do that process, we work

1:25:40

with them in putting it all

1:25:42

together and moving it forward.

1:25:44

So, ideally beforehand. Do

1:25:46

you have any advice for

1:25:48

whistleblower? I can imagine that

1:25:50

for almost all of the

1:25:52

people that you... that interact

1:25:54

with you, it probably is

1:25:56

their first time. And they are

1:25:58

like, you know. I don't know what

1:26:01

it's like to be in a

1:26:03

room and you're like, well, this

1:26:05

feels crazy, but I think I

1:26:08

need to say something and I

1:26:10

don't know how to do it,

1:26:12

but I want to say, like,

1:26:15

what advice do you have for

1:26:17

people as they are processing, like,

1:26:19

you know, I want to blow

1:26:21

the whistle, I don't know how to

1:26:24

do it, you know, what, yeah, help

1:26:26

us, help people navigate

1:26:28

it. with prospective

1:26:30

clients, particularly

1:26:32

when they retain, they're making

1:26:35

that decision, like I

1:26:37

want to proceed. The first thing

1:26:39

I tell them to do is, you

1:26:41

know, think about what's most important

1:26:43

in their life, right? A

1:26:46

lot of individuals are, have

1:26:48

their jobs defined who they

1:26:50

are, their career paths and all

1:26:52

of that. And the act

1:26:54

of whistleblowing can be neutral

1:26:57

to your career career. or

1:26:59

can be a risk, depends on the

1:27:01

circumstances. If you're one of five

1:27:03

people who know something that's really

1:27:06

sensitive that needs to come forward with

1:27:08

it, it's likely that your supervisor,

1:27:10

chain of command, is going to

1:27:13

identify and figure out pretty quickly

1:27:15

who the whistleblower is. If you're one

1:27:17

of 50, it'd be more difficult, right? But

1:27:19

if you brace yourself for the

1:27:21

possibility that it may be Iraqi

1:27:23

road, at some point in time that

1:27:25

it could be, and that you

1:27:27

surround yourself by other interests, family,

1:27:30

friends, that those are the most

1:27:32

important things. It makes it easier to

1:27:34

go through the process because at some

1:27:36

point in time it can become

1:27:38

lonely, especially if you're speaking truth

1:27:40

to power and especially those among the

1:27:43

most powerful in the world. I mean

1:27:45

a great example is the Ukraine was

1:27:47

the blower who came forward and you

1:27:49

know there was a great article just

1:27:52

this couple of days ago with him

1:27:54

in the post talking about it still

1:27:56

anonymously. and you know when you're going

1:27:58

up against like some against somebody

1:28:00

like the president of the United

1:28:03

States, it can be lonely. And

1:28:05

you may have people who are

1:28:07

going to support you and want

1:28:10

to wrap around you and be

1:28:12

there for you, but there will

1:28:14

also be people who will not.

1:28:16

And so being prepared for that

1:28:19

possibility, particularly when it's something rather,

1:28:21

I don't want to say significant

1:28:23

because when a whistleblower comes forward,

1:28:25

it's significant to them, but if

1:28:28

it's high profile. But if it's

1:28:30

high profile. Right, when you're going

1:28:32

against the president, you really have

1:28:35

to brace yourself for all the

1:28:37

possibilities. I mean, I would just

1:28:39

add, I think one of the

1:28:41

things that we try to prepare

1:28:44

our clients for is how engrossing

1:28:46

this will be in their lives

1:28:48

and just to ensure that this

1:28:50

doesn't define them. I think it's

1:28:53

really easy. when you're going through

1:28:55

this process to feel like this

1:28:57

is the only thing going on

1:29:00

in the entire world because for

1:29:02

you it is because it is

1:29:04

about your family it is about

1:29:06

your workplace it is about your

1:29:09

colleagues and the bottom line is

1:29:11

to your friends you know and

1:29:13

not everyone will necessarily support you

1:29:15

and so what's important to do

1:29:18

what interesting is to have sort

1:29:20

of these outside activities in the

1:29:22

such but to really sort of

1:29:25

hold on to that piece of

1:29:27

yourself that's you. regardless of your

1:29:29

whistleblowing activities. And that can, because

1:29:31

it can take a real toll.

1:29:34

I think that's why the work

1:29:36

we do is so important because

1:29:38

we're really trying to make sure

1:29:40

that their work is not everything

1:29:43

who they are. Like it is

1:29:45

not defining them. I think that's

1:29:47

really important as well. And do

1:29:50

you ever, I'm so interested, do

1:29:52

the police ever whistle blow the

1:29:54

whistle? Yes. you can have members

1:29:56

of law enforcement below the whistle

1:29:59

in fact I have worked on

1:30:01

cases involving federal law enforcement agents

1:30:03

who have seen something wrong

1:30:06

in terms of how matters were handled

1:30:08

and we facilitated disclosures through

1:30:10

the appropriate channels. So if

1:30:12

you're, for example, an FBI

1:30:15

agent and you see something that

1:30:17

is being, a law being violated, you

1:30:19

can go to the Inspector

1:30:21

General's office at the Department

1:30:23

of Justice and file make

1:30:25

those disclosures. We can facilitate

1:30:27

disclosures to Congress. So yes.

1:30:29

You'd be surprised. A law

1:30:32

enforcement, you name it. We

1:30:34

have people when they see

1:30:37

something wrong, they want

1:30:39

to come forward, but they

1:30:41

in particular know, hey, I've

1:30:43

got to do this

1:30:46

right away. And are

1:30:48

there any misconceptions about

1:30:50

the whistleblower process

1:30:52

that we should clear up?

1:30:54

Well, first, I would say

1:30:56

process perhaps, but... There

1:30:58

was one thing that you mentioned early

1:31:01

on, which is, you know, a lot

1:31:03

of whistleblowers can be viewed as, you

1:31:05

know, somebody who is a disgruntled employee

1:31:08

because, you know, the initial response from

1:31:10

whoever they're blowing the whistle against is

1:31:12

to push back, right, which is

1:31:15

a natural human instinct,

1:31:17

unfortunately, or fortunately, depending

1:31:19

on circumstances. But the playbook

1:31:21

is typically there, the scrontable employee,

1:31:23

they were not a great performer,

1:31:26

whatever the case may be. They're

1:31:28

not always disgruntled

1:31:31

employees. It's literally they

1:31:33

have seen something wrong. Many

1:31:35

times they have elevated

1:31:37

to their bosses, to their

1:31:39

boss's bosses, and have tried

1:31:42

to write the wrong and

1:31:44

nobody's listening. And so, you

1:31:46

know, I would say that

1:31:49

whenever you hear somebody saying,

1:31:51

hey, they're just a disgruntled

1:31:53

employer, they're no longer working

1:31:55

here. It's because the individuals

1:31:58

who are committed. wrongdoing,

1:32:00

they don't want to talk about

1:32:03

the underlying issues that are being

1:32:05

brought forward. They attack the messenger

1:32:07

because that's easier to do. So

1:32:09

never you hear somebody saying, oh

1:32:12

this is a disgruntled employee,

1:32:14

ask yourself the question, why are

1:32:16

they coming forward with? Because

1:32:18

nobody's done, their prior employer

1:32:20

is not talking about the underlying

1:32:23

issues. And why is that? I

1:32:25

mean, I think what's really important

1:32:27

is that because whistleblower's

1:32:29

are so targeted, you know, the

1:32:31

kinds of language is actually a

1:32:34

thread among sort of almost almost

1:32:36

always we see this very specific

1:32:39

language that's right? We see disgruntled

1:32:41

employee. There's something that talks about

1:32:43

them not being, they won't say

1:32:46

the word loyal, but they'll say

1:32:48

words around that, right? They'll say

1:32:51

they're not trust, you know, they're

1:32:53

not trustworthy, that kind

1:32:55

of thing, right? They've often

1:32:57

been asked to sign non-disclosure

1:33:00

agreements that aren't protecting trade

1:33:02

secrets, but are protecting

1:33:04

other really important secrets that

1:33:06

could really damage the organization

1:33:09

and the public. You know,

1:33:11

sometimes they'll call them leakers,

1:33:13

right? So in a way

1:33:15

to discredit the really important

1:33:17

work they're doing. And also it's

1:33:19

really important. to remember that there

1:33:22

is a process that these whistleblowers

1:33:24

we want them to go through

1:33:26

so they do it in a

1:33:28

legal and safe and responsible way.

1:33:30

We have examples of those that

1:33:32

weren't and didn't it and weren't

1:33:34

able to do that like reality winner

1:33:36

who ended up going to prison for

1:33:38

four years. because she went directly to

1:33:41

the media without having any counsel. So

1:33:43

we want to make sure that they

1:33:45

go through this process so that they

1:33:48

are actually a whistleblower as we talked

1:33:50

about earlier and they aren't a leeper

1:33:52

because that's not a safe way to

1:33:54

go. It's so interesting that you say that

1:33:56

Miami because you know until I met

1:33:58

you all I would have even been

1:34:01

like, you know, tell the press.

1:34:03

Like when you find out something,

1:34:05

find the reporter, get it off

1:34:07

the record, you know, those are

1:34:09

the movies we see. We see

1:34:11

the movie where somebody puts it

1:34:13

in a manila envelope, mails it

1:34:16

to the New York Times and

1:34:18

Washington Post, they open the envelope,

1:34:20

they write the story, and they

1:34:22

take down the bad guy. What is

1:34:24

the danger of that approach? Well,

1:34:27

if they work for the CIA,

1:34:29

the FBI, and it's classified, they

1:34:31

can go to prison and they

1:34:34

can be prosecuted for

1:34:36

that because they may be

1:34:38

mishandling classified information. So that's

1:34:40

a danger there for the

1:34:43

federal employees. If you're in

1:34:45