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today. I've never felt

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more liberated in my entire

0:26

life, so we. Last week

0:29

I was at the crooked

0:31

office recording this show and

0:33

I watched live as Donald

0:35

Trump liberated everybody from the

0:38

prison of common sense and

0:40

reasonable economic policy. Yeah, it

0:42

was an extraordinary, extraordinary thing

0:44

to bear witness to whilst

0:47

some of our friends in

0:49

the crooked media office just...

0:51

shook their heads at a speed that

0:53

suggested they might all be about to

0:55

get whipplash. Of course on the show

0:58

today, we're discussing the impact of Trump's

1:00

wild tariffs and what it means for

1:02

the UK. And we'll be joined

1:04

by the author and political commentator

1:06

Melissa Ben, the daughter of the

1:08

late great Tony Ben, to discuss

1:10

what the government could learn from

1:12

a socialist by a brand father,

1:14

plus what does she think about

1:16

Labour's plan for education? But first,

1:18

to Trump. If you look at

1:21

Switzerland's 61% to 31%, Indonesia,

1:23

Malaysia, Cambodia, Cambodia, 97%. We're

1:25

going to bring it down

1:27

to 49. They made a

1:29

fortune with the United States

1:31

of America, United Kingdom, 10%

1:33

and we'll go 10%. So

1:35

we'll do the same thing.

1:37

Yes that was Donald Trump

1:39

reading from a board in

1:41

a manner that suggests he

1:43

has never heard of several

1:45

of the countries that he

1:47

was reading the names out

1:49

of with all of the production

1:51

values and let's face it

1:53

the host's questionable sexual history of

1:56

a 1970s British television game show

1:58

host as we record. And it

2:00

really is important that we keep

2:02

inserting that caveat. As we record,

2:04

the UK is on a 10%

2:06

flat tariff. The EU is on

2:08

20% certain imports like vehicles are

2:10

levied to 25%. China is levied

2:12

with a 34% rate, which is

2:14

additional to the existing 20% duties

2:16

on all Chinese imports to the

2:18

United States. Trump has then threatened

2:20

an additional 50% tariff on China.

2:22

What do you make of all

2:24

of this? This kind of trade

2:27

war. the end of globalisation, whatever

2:29

phrase we're putting on it. There's

2:31

a lot of people reacting with

2:33

surprise, which I understand because logically

2:35

this is an insane thing to

2:37

do, right? It makes no logical

2:39

sense for Trump to implement terrorists.

2:41

It's going to mean higher costs

2:43

passed on to consumers in the

2:45

US, which is something that he

2:47

basically based his whole presidential campaign

2:49

around reducing costs. He's also given

2:51

several conflicting reasons for this. So

2:53

on the one hand, it's to

2:55

encourage American manufacturers to create more

2:57

and be more self-sufficient and it's

2:59

kind of protectionist. On the other

3:01

hand, it's to get the US

3:03

a better bargaining position on the

3:05

world stage so they can have

3:07

better trade. You know, the two

3:09

positions don't align. As you said,

3:11

as we're recording, those are currently

3:13

the rates in place. But this

3:15

could all move, depending on who

3:17

bends the need to Trump. what

3:19

reasons he's actually implementing these tariffs,

3:21

you know, if this is genuinely

3:23

an attempt at American protectionism, he

3:25

may well stay firm. But if

3:27

it is actually a bargaining tactic,

3:29

or just because he wants to

3:31

blow everything up and, you know,

3:33

have people basically come groveling to

3:35

him, then we might see some

3:37

movement in the next few days.

3:39

But what is very, very clear

3:41

is that the world is now

3:44

incredibly dependent on a man who...

3:46

just can't be trusted to do

3:48

anything in the ways that we

3:50

expected. You know, one of the

3:52

tariffs he put on, we've got

3:54

the same rate tariff as an

3:56

island that is basically entirely populated

3:58

by penguins. Yes. Trying to make

4:00

any sense of this niche is

4:02

hopeless, so all we can really

4:04

do is just say, you know,

4:06

We told you so. The penguin

4:08

island has made a lot of

4:10

news over here because it's in

4:12

this part of the world. Look,

4:14

Trump has said repeatedly that he

4:16

will not back down on these

4:18

tariffs and keeps using the phrase,

4:20

sometimes you have to take your

4:22

medicine, which famously was not his

4:24

attitude during the coronavirus pandemic, where

4:26

he's just to be all drinking

4:28

bleach. Trump has claimed that Kiastoma

4:30

is very happy about the terrorists.

4:32

Now, based on... what Kiestama has

4:34

been saying. I'm not sure how

4:36

happy he is. Here's the Prime

4:38

Minister speaking on Monday. When it

4:40

comes to the US, I will

4:42

only strike a deal if it's

4:44

in our national interest, if it's

4:46

the right thing to do for

4:48

our security, if it protects the

4:50

pounds in the pocket that working

4:52

people across the country works so

4:54

hard to earn for their family.

4:56

That is my priority. That is

4:59

always my priority. strength abroad, security

5:01

and renewal at home. The fuck

5:03

does that mean? So that was

5:05

Kirstama speaking at the Jaguar Land

5:07

Rover factory on Monday where he

5:09

announced a relaxation of rules for

5:11

electric car sales as his response

5:13

to Trump's tariffs. Well it's not

5:15

exactly thrilling stuff and is he

5:17

even doing enough? He said multiple

5:19

times that nobody wins from a

5:21

trade war and speaks about working

5:23

with key partners to accelerate trade

5:25

deals across the world. He also

5:27

says the government wants to turbocharge

5:29

the support it's giving to the

5:31

British economy and he's talked about

5:33

bridge. the industrial strategy forward but

5:35

we know that the UK stock

5:37

market like the rest of the

5:39

stock market has seen a roller

5:41

coaster in reaction to the tariffs

5:43

and I know poor corporations but

5:45

this will indirectly affect so many

5:47

of us our pensions our investment

5:49

funds are all likely to be

5:51

hit first of all I think

5:53

and I include myself in this

5:55

there is a strong rump of

5:57

our listenership that is responded to

5:59

the phrase pension fund by laughing

6:01

themselves historically stock market shares does

6:03

seriously impact the pension funds which

6:05

obviously seriously impacts the only bit

6:07

of the British electorate that any

6:09

of the major party seems to

6:11

care about which is retired people

6:14

or people are about to retire.

6:16

Just purely assessing the political situation

6:18

that Kiastama is facing at the

6:20

moment. Is there an argument that

6:22

it would be good politics for

6:24

him with the electorate to actually

6:26

talk a bit tougher with Trump

6:28

or do you think given that

6:30

we've ended up with 10%? that

6:32

actually we have to consider this

6:34

whole thing to be a real

6:36

strategic coup for Qirstama and actually

6:38

that will eventually translate into a

6:40

polling button. I think there are

6:42

sort of good and bad things

6:44

that Labour can take out of

6:46

this. The good thing is that

6:48

they can do what? richly soon

6:50

out can Boris Johnson did with

6:52

economic decline by basically pointing to

6:54

COVID and the war in Ukraine

6:56

and saying it's not our fault

6:58

if prices rise. I think also

7:00

there's a possible bump they might

7:02

get from reform you know Nigel

7:04

Farage is inextricably tied to Donald

7:06

Trump for a lot of people.

7:08

You know Nigel Farage has been

7:10

very quiet recently. I knew there

7:12

was something I was feeling good

7:14

about. The tough stuff is that

7:16

people don't like Donald Trump and

7:18

people don't like to see their

7:20

British Prime Minister sort of kissing

7:22

the ring when it comes to

7:24

any leader really but especially the

7:26

bully that Donald Trump is now

7:28

being perceived as. The problem is

7:31

you know it's the B word

7:33

that's the elephant in the room.

7:35

France and Germany can be stronger

7:37

on this because they're part of

7:39

a trading block. We on the

7:41

other hand are stuck between the

7:43

US and the EU. and we're

7:45

kind of trying to keep both

7:47

sweet and kind of trying not

7:49

to move too quickly. And that

7:51

means having to be very diplomatic.

7:53

And I think it might come

7:55

back to bite Starmer because he

7:57

was doing all this schmoozing, you

7:59

know, and he still got a

8:01

10% tariff. And the question is,

8:03

what is he going to have

8:05

to do to get that tariff

8:07

reduced? Is it going to be

8:09

dropping the digital services tax? Well,

8:11

people won't like the idea of

8:13

tech billionaires. or tech companies not

8:15

paying their share when everybody else

8:17

is dealing with the rising costs

8:19

of a global trade war and

8:21

a potential global recession. Surely now

8:23

at last it's time to rip

8:25

up these fucking fiscal rules. Like

8:27

surely it's absolutely unfathomable that we

8:29

can be talking about a world

8:31

that's completely changed. We're talking about

8:33

the collapse of, you know, really

8:35

the last kind of... 40 years

8:37

of global trade policy. Surely that

8:39

is reason enough for Keastarm and

8:41

Rachel Reeves to ditch their God

8:43

damn fucking fiscal rules that they

8:46

seem to have like, it's like

8:48

a chastity chain that they've locked

8:50

their genitals into. The friction caused

8:52

by the dry humping against the

8:54

metal is doing serious damage to

8:56

us as a nation. Well, thank

8:58

you for that image. And while

9:00

I ponder that, I've lost my

9:02

train of thought. Okay, fiscal rules.

9:04

The Guardian have reported the government

9:06

are debating whether to change fiscal

9:08

rules to boost growth. But even

9:10

with a relaxation to fiscal rules,

9:12

you know, we're still looking at

9:14

a lot of economic pay. So

9:16

fiscal rules are all very well,

9:18

but... I think there's still going

9:20

to have to be some tax

9:22

rises and the autumn is going

9:24

to be really key for that

9:26

because so much changes in a

9:28

week, what is going to happen

9:30

between now and the autumn or

9:32

now next spring. Just focusing on

9:34

the kind of domestic political situation

9:36

as it relates to the fallout

9:38

of this, the government doesn't appear

9:40

to be completely united over how

9:42

to respond to Trump. Foreign Minister

9:44

David Lamy has told reporters that

9:46

he regrets a return to protectionism

9:48

in the United States. which then

9:50

prompted Downing Street to reject his

9:52

assertion. So everybody's getting regretted and

9:54

rejected. It's Lammy now in a

9:56

tricky spot because Lammy has previously

9:58

been seen as Kirstalma's got to...

10:01

conduit into the Trump administration, particularly

10:03

because of his friendship with JD

10:05

Vance. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean,

10:07

I would say if I had

10:09

to put money on it, I'd

10:11

probably say if there was another

10:13

big reshuffle, I don't think David

10:15

Lamy would be foreign sec anymore.

10:17

The point about JD Vance is

10:19

interesting. Yes, they seemingly get on,

10:21

but the question of how tight

10:23

JD Vance and Trump are these

10:25

days, I think, is also an

10:27

interesting one. I wonder if Starma

10:29

would potentially want a foreign secretary

10:31

who obeys the messaging a bit

10:33

more going forward. Whether it would

10:35

be a case of him leaving

10:37

his role soon, I don't necessarily

10:39

think so. I think at this

10:41

point the Labour government wanted to

10:43

seem really united and I don't

10:45

think it's like an all out

10:47

war between David Lamy and Kisam

10:49

or anything like that. So we

10:51

might not see a reach up

10:53

for a long time. So you've

10:55

referenced that Starma... wrote an op-ed

10:57

in the telegraph, he said, the

10:59

world we know it has gone.

11:01

It almost sounds like a sort

11:03

of rejected Morrissey lyric. But there

11:05

is this claim being made this

11:07

week, not just by Starmer and

11:09

his op-ed piece, but by various

11:11

economists and economic journalists that were

11:13

witnessing the kind of end of

11:15

globalisation. Is that it as Trump

11:18

entered it with one kind of

11:20

a zero piece of cardboard? The

11:22

reason why, you know, this is

11:24

different from the kind of interwar

11:26

period where we saw similar trends,

11:28

which was like, you know, post-big

11:30

global event, you see countries getting

11:32

slightly more isolationists, slightly more suspicious,

11:34

I guess, of their neighbours. We

11:36

now have tech, which is so

11:38

much more advanced, and citizens are

11:40

much more socially connected to other

11:42

countries than before. And we're seeing

11:44

these kind of transnational movements, ideas,

11:46

ideologies, where people are creating communities

11:48

that cross borders. There's even the

11:50

billionaires who want those kind of

11:52

global nomad citizenships as well. So

11:54

whether we'd ever go back to

11:56

a fully kind of isolationist time,

11:58

I don't think so, because I

12:00

think the horse has bolted. Like

12:02

now people are talking to... to

12:04

each other all over the world.

12:06

So you might get countries going

12:08

a bit more protectionist in terms

12:10

of their industrial strategy, but I

12:12

wonder if we'll ever see citizens

12:14

being very kind of country focused

12:16

again. Like it feels with social

12:18

media that it's not really possible.

12:20

When it comes to Trump, my

12:22

assumption is always the worst possible

12:24

outcome for everybody. But just hearing

12:26

you start that conversation by talking

12:28

about... the collapse of a particular

12:30

1990 style of globalized capitalism. Is

12:33

that something the left should be

12:35

celebrated? Is Donald Trump the hero

12:37

to the Generation X left that

12:39

defined itself by an opposition to

12:41

the WTO? The reason the left

12:43

tended to not like globalisation, it

12:45

wasn't, well obviously you were saying,

12:47

it wasn't because it was global,

12:49

it's because it was... entrenching inequality

12:51

and benefiting the rich. And I

12:53

think now it's interesting because the

12:55

left are often the people who

12:57

are now kind of champion actually

12:59

we need to be closer to

13:01

the EU because I think they

13:03

see a future built on shared

13:05

values and you know whatever is

13:07

coming around the corner from the

13:09

right feels very very dangerous and

13:11

a time where the broad left

13:13

should be uniting and trying to

13:15

find a way forward rather than

13:17

saying Yes, to isolationism. Yeah, I

13:19

think that's the concern, isn't it?

13:21

It's that we've traded one form

13:23

of undemocratic, exploitative global capitalism for

13:25

another that is just concentrating power

13:27

in an even smaller percentage of

13:29

the wealthiest people in the world.

13:31

In any case, if you're looking

13:33

for more analysis on Trump's outrageous

13:35

tariffs and the fallout, please make

13:37

sure to check out cricket's foreign

13:39

policy show, Pard Save Save. of

13:41

the chaos from a US perspective.

13:43

They also cover what came out

13:45

of the Netanyahu meeting South Sudan

13:48

and the threat of civil war

13:50

and South Korea's presidential impeachment. Tune

13:52

into Pods Save the World now

13:54

on YouTube or wherever you get

13:56

your podcasts. After the break we're

13:58

joined by Melissa Ben to discuss

14:00

the legacy of one of the

14:02

most appealing politicians of the post-war

14:04

period. The late great Tony Ben.

14:06

So when I started this podcast

14:08

it seemed like you know there

14:10

was a lot to do we

14:12

had a whole team but even

14:14

so you find yourself wearing multiple

14:16

hats you're working through a task

14:18

list that just seems to go

14:20

on and on and on as

14:22

soon as you tick something off

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a new one appears. And I

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more likely, and more likely. Thank

16:30

you. The

16:38

legendary socialist politician Tony Ben once

16:40

called the most dangerous man in

16:43

Britain by the Daily Mail would

16:45

have turned 100 last week. He

16:47

was a Labour MP for over

16:49

50 years holding several significant cabinet

16:51

posts in the 1960s and 70s

16:54

and even competing for party leadership

16:56

in 1988. Ben died in 2014

16:58

aged 88, but he continues to

17:00

influence politics and a new generation

17:03

of activists with his radical vision

17:05

for just a year. equality and

17:07

peace. A centenary anthology put together

17:09

by his daughter, the author and

17:12

political commentator Melissa Ben, is a

17:14

reminder of his political potency today.

17:16

And she's joining us now, Melissa,

17:18

welcome to Ponce of the UK.

17:21

Thank you very much for having

17:23

me. I'm thrilled to be here.

17:25

Melissa, your father received a review

17:27

from the Daily Mail that even

17:29

I have not received. the most

17:32

dangerous man in Britain, quite an

17:34

extraordinary turn of phrase. I know

17:36

and look at that friendly face,

17:38

I'm just holding up the cover.

17:41

I don't know if it was

17:43

the male, I think it might

17:45

have been Kingsley Amos who first

17:47

called him the most dangerous man

17:50

in Britain, Kingsley Amos the novelist,

17:52

Martin Amos his dad, but it's

17:54

true that there was a period

17:56

where he was considered dangerous. my

17:58

age his political beliefs were certainly

18:01

very front and center and very

18:03

formative to a lot of us.

18:05

My earliest memory of him is

18:07

having a sort of initially hostile

18:10

and then quite genial interview with

18:12

Ali G. Do you know I

18:14

think the Ali G interview was

18:16

quite a moment in his life

18:19

because most people did not come

18:21

out well of an Ali G

18:23

interview and I sometimes try to

18:25

work out why he did. I

18:27

think it was because he he

18:30

didn't make concessions to LG. He

18:32

just said what he wanted to

18:34

say and I don't know he

18:36

just he just had a way

18:39

with him but why was he

18:41

considered so dangerous? I think because

18:43

he was sincere, he was very

18:45

radical, he became more radical, he

18:48

had real political experience behind him.

18:50

He'd been an MP from 25.

18:52

He was the baby of the

18:54

house. He'd been, as so he

18:56

mentioned, a minister in the 60s

18:59

and the 70s. And his views

19:01

evolved. People often suggested that he

19:03

was a... a sensible centrist politician

19:05

who went crazy on the hard

19:08

left shoulder of British politics. Actually,

19:10

if you look through his life,

19:12

which I did to write the

19:14

introductory essay, he was always quite

19:17

radical, but he became more radical

19:19

and being a minister really changed

19:21

his view of the way everything

19:23

worked, the economy, the civil service,

19:25

the media, and then he became

19:28

so radical that he... left the

19:30

Labour party behind or the Labour

19:32

party left him behind. But from

19:34

that point on he then became

19:37

more of a teacher and a

19:39

preacher and you know he was

19:41

a fantastic speaker. I think I

19:43

can say that even as his

19:46

daughter I can't be objective and

19:48

you wouldn't expect me to be

19:50

and it's a bit of a

19:52

rare gift actually when you look

19:54

at our current leaders. There's not

19:57

many other, she said politely. In

19:59

the introduction to this book you

20:01

write that your father's ideas have

20:03

become more relevant as we move

20:06

into what may be the most

20:08

dangerous phase in global human history

20:10

since the Second World War. I

20:12

mean we're talking this week as

20:15

Donald Trump's tariffs rocked the world

20:17

and kissed armour as declared a

20:19

new era of global instability, saying

20:21

that the UK can't be coward

20:24

and must seize new opportunities. Just

20:26

two parts I think that I

20:28

want to ask you about. One

20:30

is... What have you identified in

20:32

what we're moving through at the

20:35

moment collectively that makes this the

20:37

most dangerous phase in human history

20:39

since the Second World War? And

20:41

how do you think the ideas

20:44

that your father stood for most

20:46

staunchly come to bear or have

20:48

things to say about the time

20:50

that we're living in? I mean

20:53

what is not dangerous about where

20:55

we are now? Everything. Trump's craziness,

20:57

the chaos, Russian invasion of Ukraine,

20:59

growing inequality since 1980. labor welfare

21:01

cuts, where do we stop, where

21:04

do we begin. That's the first

21:06

part of the question. I think

21:08

that's easier than answering part beanish,

21:10

which is what in his thinking

21:13

would help us. And the thing

21:15

I would want to say here

21:17

is that because of the recent

21:19

political history, particularly Boris Johnson paused

21:22

for... a feeling of unhappiness. Defeating

21:24

Jeremy Corvin in 2019 seemed to

21:26

suggest, as did Kierstammer's broad but

21:28

shallow victory, that the left were

21:30

defeated. And actually I am now

21:33

old enough to see and to

21:35

remember my father saying, all politics

21:37

is cyclical and I now see...

21:39

a role again for the left

21:42

at this moment. I can tell

21:44

you what he would have thought

21:46

about domestic politics and what the

21:48

left are thinking about domestic politics,

21:51

but actually James Medway I think

21:53

was on your program last week

21:55

said it all that there are

21:57

very... things which the Labour government

21:59

could do to tackle inequality. There

22:02

are lots of things from a

22:04

wealth tax to equalising income tax

22:06

and capital gains, to loosening the

22:08

fiscal rule so you can borrow

22:11

to invest so that you can

22:13

get the economy going. All those

22:15

things are left ideas. I think

22:17

internationally it's much more difficult to

22:20

know what the answer is. Probably

22:22

the answer is something a bit...

22:24

Boring about creating new markets, the

22:26

international situation is so unstable at

22:28

the moment, it's hard to come

22:31

up with a distinct left view

22:33

of it, or I can't. It's

22:35

something that we agonize over every

22:37

week on this show, which is,

22:40

particularly from an international perspective, how

22:42

do we replicate the success of

22:44

the hard rights contagion? of their

22:46

ideas. There is a distinct connection

22:49

between the domestic and foreign policies

22:51

of Donald Trump, Benjamin Netanyahu, Mohammed

22:53

bin Salman, Vladimir Putin, Victor Oban,

22:55

Nurenta Modi. However many of these

22:58

strong man hard-right leaders you want

23:00

to name, the list seems endless.

23:02

And you know, the growing influence

23:04

of the AFD in Germany is

23:06

also a wing of that. The

23:09

thing that I'm agonizing over is

23:11

how... how we create a parallel

23:13

block of ideas and philosophies that

23:15

actually are given voice by mainstream

23:18

politicians to actually push back against

23:20

that international wave. I think you

23:22

need people who really believe in

23:24

alternative policies and I think we

23:27

have a very very cautious government.

23:29

Loathing as I do, Farage seems

23:31

to cut through. He has some

23:33

ability to communicate and I think

23:35

Tony. Dad did have that as

23:38

well. He was an explainer and

23:40

actually He recognized it's about going

23:42

to where people are and explaining

23:44

and communicating And I think this

23:47

tendency of politicians still to put

23:49

a piece in the telegraph, put

23:51

a piece in the Times, go

23:53

on the Today program is missing

23:56

a whole set of constituencies. One

23:58

of the things that your father

24:00

absolutely was was staunchly anti-war, and

24:02

he argued that all war represents

24:04

a failure of democracy calling for

24:07

international cooperation, especially around human rights.

24:09

We've actually got a clip of

24:11

his stunning speech against the Iraq

24:13

war that we're going to play

24:16

in now. War is an easy

24:18

thing to talk about. There are

24:20

not many people of the generation

24:22

that remember it. The right honourable

24:25

gentleman served with the six and

24:27

last one. I never killed anyone,

24:29

but I wore uniform. But I

24:31

was in London in the Blitz

24:33

in 1940, living in the Millbank

24:36

Tower, where I was born. Some

24:38

different ideas have come in since.

24:40

And every night, I went down

24:42

to the shelter in Tem's house.

24:45

Every morning, I saw Dockland burning.

24:47

500 people were killed in Westminster

24:49

one night by land mine. It

24:51

was terrifying. Aunt Arabs terrified. Auntie's

24:54

rock. He's terrified. I don't Arab,

24:56

and Iraqi women weep when their

24:58

children die. Doesn't bombing strength of

25:00

them. determination? What fools we are

25:02

to live in a generation for

25:05

which war is a computer game

25:07

for our children and just an

25:09

interesting little channel for news item.

25:11

Every Member of Parliament tonight who

25:14

votes for the government motion will

25:16

be consciously and deliberately accepting the

25:18

responsibility for the deaths of innocent

25:20

people if the war begins as

25:23

I fear it will. Now that's

25:25

for their decision to take. That's

25:27

quite something. It's extraordinary speech. When

25:29

I was writing the introduction, I

25:31

was trying to think, why has

25:34

he endured, but so many of

25:36

the giants of his generation have

25:38

not? And I think it's because

25:40

he does, and I don't say

25:43

this cynically, comes across very well

25:45

on TikTok and Twitter and all

25:47

those things, those short extracts of

25:49

speeches. And I think that is

25:52

such a powerful clue. It makes

25:54

me quite emotional every time I

25:56

hear it. But to pick up

25:58

your point, Nish, he was against

26:01

war. I mean, he led, stopped

26:03

the war coalition against the invasion

26:05

of Iraq and Afghanistan, but of

26:07

course he completely believed in the

26:09

just war and fought in the

26:12

war of 1939 to 45. So

26:14

it's not a total anti-war position.

26:16

It's about deciding what are the

26:18

balance of forces and where is

26:21

social justice. best served. And that's

26:23

what would have to be decided

26:25

now if, and I hope we

26:27

never get to that, we move

26:30

into an international conflict of that

26:32

kind. Melissa, what do you think

26:34

your father would make of the

26:36

government's approach to wars in the

26:38

war in Gaza, particularly, because that

26:41

has obviously received a lot of

26:43

ire from the label, not just

26:45

the Labour left, but actually plenty

26:47

within... you know, labour and across

26:50

the political spectrum. What do you

26:52

think your father would say about

26:54

this? I know what he would

26:56

have said, because he had begun

26:59

as a supporter of Israel, been

27:01

to Israel after the Second World

27:03

War, and slowly and reluctantly became

27:05

very critical of the Israeli government,

27:07

and it's, as he saw it,

27:10

occupation and containment, and I suppose,

27:12

a form of apartheid within Gaza

27:14

and the West Bank. and he

27:16

would have spoken out unequivocally and

27:19

constantly about what has happened in

27:21

Gaza and the massive loss of

27:23

life, like Jeremy Corbyn does now,

27:25

and like many on the left

27:28

do. And he would not have

27:30

accepted that it was a form

27:32

of anti-Semitism. He would have made

27:34

it very clear, as people do

27:36

now, that it's a criticism of

27:39

the Israeli government and the right

27:41

who are in the right. control

27:43

of the Israeli government and the

27:45

way they are waging. a war

27:48

against the Palestinians. So I have

27:50

no doubt about that. Melissa, let's

27:52

talk a bit about your work

27:54

because one of the things that

27:57

that the broad left I'll call

27:59

them can often unite behind is

28:01

the importance of education and obviously

28:03

this is a big point of

28:05

yours and as we know the

28:08

children's well-being and schools bill is

28:10

making its way through parliament and

28:12

it includes a raft of measures

28:14

that are going to impact schools.

28:17

Love to hear from you about

28:19

what you think the big reforms

28:21

are that we should be paying

28:23

attention to and just your thoughts

28:26

on the bill how will it

28:28

actually protect children is there anything

28:30

missing what are your reflections. Yeah,

28:32

I mean I think I would

28:35

take a step back and talk

28:37

about the bill in a slightly

28:39

different way. Having lived through the

28:41

Gove era, Michael Gove, as some

28:43

people may remember, was Secretary of

28:46

State for Education in the coalition

28:48

government and he just within a

28:50

year kind of revolutionized the school

28:52

system. He cut the links with

28:55

local authorities, he crammed the curriculum

28:57

full of traditional views about things,

28:59

he marginalized teachers and so on.

29:01

My thinking about this Labour government

29:04

is that it's always the way

29:06

that the right, I mean, trumps

29:08

are perfect, a mad perfect example,

29:10

the right, often a much bolder,

29:12

and they come in and they

29:15

just, they don't give a damn,

29:17

you know, in a way, and

29:19

labours come in with these rather

29:21

moderate reforms really, children and well-being

29:24

good, I mean, it covers lots

29:26

of things, children in care and

29:28

all sorts of things, but on

29:30

education, none of it is revolutionary.

29:33

None of it is tackling the

29:35

catastrophic decline of local connection to

29:37

schools, which we've seen with the

29:39

catastrophic decline of local authorities. None

29:41

of it is tackling the big

29:44

academy chains, some of whose leaders

29:46

earn, I think, twice or even

29:48

more than the Prime Minister does.

29:50

You know, these are new power

29:53

centres. And I think what's really

29:55

striking, and it's also true about

29:57

VAT. on private school fees is

29:59

that these people are very powerful

30:02

within political culture and they are

30:04

resourcing the Labour government for its

30:06

mild reforms. They don't like Bridget

30:08

Phillipson because she and Rachel Reeves

30:10

are quite tough about the 20%

30:13

imposition on private schools. Certain figures

30:15

like Catherine Burbelson which some of

30:17

your listeners might know of who

30:19

is quite let's say controversial. headteacher

30:22

in my borough of Brent, has

30:24

said that Bridget Philipson and Becky

30:26

Francis who's leading the curriculum review

30:28

will destroy our schools. It's crazy.

30:31

It's the gove, there should be

30:33

a word for it, gove universe.

30:35

The people that gove enabled and

30:37

promoted who now have quite a

30:39

lot of control of our education

30:42

and a very clear view of

30:44

what education should be like, which

30:46

is a kind of diluted private

30:48

school approach. for the masses. They

30:51

are just not going to let

30:53

Labour do something a bit more

30:55

democratic and inclusive. We should say

30:57

one of Goves, one of the

31:00

people he emboldened most publicly, one

31:02

of his great mentees, Kemi Badenak,

31:04

has said that this is an

31:06

act of vandalism where deprived children

31:09

will pay the price. Melissa is

31:11

worth just engaging with this for

31:13

a second in what this bill

31:15

actually does. positively that seems to

31:17

have wound Kemi up to such

31:20

an extent. What does the bill

31:22

do? It says that all schools

31:24

should teach the national curriculum, that

31:26

schools shouldn't be allowed to have

31:29

exceptions. It says that you should

31:31

have qualified teachers in every school.

31:33

It's talking about bringing in free...

31:35

breakfast clubs in every school and

31:38

it's saying that school should not

31:40

be allowed to propose and enforce

31:42

branded uniform that's very expensive for

31:44

the thousands of children from homes

31:46

that are struggling with the cost

31:49

of living. I mean, that is

31:51

not revolutionary stuff. It's, and a

31:53

lot of head teachers who are

31:55

not within that Gove universe have

31:58

said this is a kind and

32:00

thoughtful bill and that it should

32:02

be supported. So I don't think

32:04

we should listen to those hysterical

32:07

voices on the right. about what

32:09

Labour are doing on education. And

32:11

similarly, I was looking up the

32:13

figures today about VAT on private

32:15

schools. Huge fuss about that. Huge

32:18

fuss. I'm part of a group

32:20

called the Private School Policy Reform

32:22

Group, and we're just about to

32:24

look at the coverage of the

32:27

VAT proposal. And I think almost

32:29

every day, though, people saying this

32:31

is going to destroy a wonderful...

32:33

pillar of society. If you look

32:36

at private school fees from I

32:38

think from 2000 they've gone up

32:40

75% in real terms anyway. Nobody

32:42

has left private schools. The figure

32:44

stays the same at six to

32:47

seven percent. We were told the

32:49

state schools would be flooded and

32:51

wouldn't be able to deal with

32:53

all the refugees from the private

32:56

sector because they couldn't afford it.

32:58

The reports from local councils are

33:00

that there's hardly been a shift

33:02

at all. I accept there are

33:05

some parents whose children are in

33:07

special needs schools because the state

33:09

can't cope with special need provision.

33:11

That's a separate question. That's a

33:13

huge problem in the education world.

33:16

What is your feeling about that?

33:18

Well, I'm not a particular expert

33:20

on it, but from just thinking

33:22

about it and reading about it.

33:25

It's a crisis that has been

33:27

evolving and building. It has not

33:29

been solved. It is now on

33:31

Labour's plate. And it's probably largely

33:34

a budgetary question, and that goes

33:36

back to what we were talking

33:38

about earlier, money. We are told

33:40

there is not money for our

33:42

public services. fact we may have

33:45

to face cuts. You can't solve

33:47

all problems by changing regulations. You

33:49

can't solve the problems in our

33:51

schools actually by harmonising the curriculum.

33:54

At some point you have to

33:56

spend money and money on the

33:58

children who need it most, but

34:00

they're not going to do that.

34:03

Well you talk about these, you

34:05

know, this bill isn't really radical

34:07

in the way the education system

34:09

maybe needs it to be. What

34:12

things would you implement that could

34:14

change our education system? I think

34:16

you need to look at European

34:18

systems that have much longer and

34:20

more serious teacher education scheme so

34:23

that it is a genuine vocation

34:25

and that you think of it

34:27

as a job for life, you

34:29

think about what people who are

34:32

going through the education system as

34:34

educators are going to need, people

34:36

who want to have families and

34:38

so on, people who might want

34:41

to work four day weeks, and

34:43

you don't pile them. with all

34:45

sorts of data tasks and an

34:47

over stuff curriculum and make it

34:49

a job hard to do. And

34:52

you give them more autonomy in

34:54

terms of doing their job. So

34:56

I think we've gone really wrong

34:58

in the way that we treat

35:01

teachers and therefore the way that

35:03

we treat learners. I just want

35:05

to briefly return to something your

35:07

father said. He said there is

35:10

no final victory as there is

35:12

no final defeat. There is just

35:14

the same battle to be fought

35:16

over and over again. The political

35:18

landscape is increasingly bleak and it's

35:21

easy for a lot of us,

35:23

I was going to say who

35:25

listened to the show, it's easy

35:27

sometimes for a lot of us

35:30

who present the show to feel

35:32

incredibly disheartened. What is a message

35:34

of optimism that you can distill

35:36

from observing his... life and his

35:39

messages that you can deliver to

35:41

the listeners. And I cannot stress

35:43

this enough, also the hosts. Yeah,

35:45

well I think you don't do

35:47

a bad job actually of keeping

35:50

a bit of a little flame

35:52

of hope alive, but also you

35:54

do it with humor. So you're

35:56

doing, I would say little sounds

35:59

patchmatic, you're doing your bit. No,

36:01

no, I think... bang on I'll

36:03

take a little as being quite

36:05

generous. Okay and also I think

36:08

I don't want to say I'm

36:10

sick or frantic either. So the

36:12

other thing that I would say

36:14

is I think he was absolutely

36:16

right. There have been so many

36:19

points of demoralization even in the

36:21

last 10 years I mean the

36:23

moment seems to be getting bigger

36:25

and worse but there is no

36:28

final defeat and I think that's

36:30

something else the left have to

36:32

do is is think Where? What

36:34

are the cells and communities and

36:37

groups and constituencies? Where we can

36:39

start to talk about resistance, but

36:41

also generate good ideas for change,

36:43

spread some radical ideas. Do it

36:46

with hope and humor. Make sure

36:48

that you protect your own well-being.

36:50

Politics is a brutal business. And

36:52

so you've got to fight but

36:54

keep your own sense of balance.

36:57

I don't think there's any more

36:59

magic answer than that and speak

37:01

up. That's the best I can

37:03

offer. Melissa, thank you so much

37:06

for joining us on Podsave the

37:08

UK. The most dangerous man in

37:10

Britain, the political writing by Tony

37:12

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for a couple of truly shocking

39:00

what the fucks that have happened

39:02

this week. First up, Israel has

39:04

detained and deported two Labour MPs,

39:06

Yuan Yang and Avitsam Muhammad, the

39:09

pair said that they were there

39:11

to visit humanitarian aid projects and

39:13

communities in the West Bank with

39:15

charities long used to hosting parliamentary

39:18

delegations. They were stopped at the

39:20

airport on Sunday because they were

39:22

suspected of plans to... this is

39:24

a direct quote. document the activities

39:26

of security forces and spread anti-Israel

39:29

hatred. According to a statement from

39:31

the Israeli Immigration Ministry. Foreign Secretary

39:33

David Lammy said Israel's actions were

39:35

unacceptable, counterproductive and deeply concerning. And

39:38

chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee

39:40

Emily Thornbury said it was an

39:42

insult to Britain. But Kemi Bade-knock

39:44

struck a strikingly different tone. Here

39:46

she is on Sky News. I

39:49

think that every country should be

39:51

able to control its borders and

39:53

that's what Israel is doing as

39:55

far as I understand. They gave

39:58

reasons why. they didn't believe that

40:00

those people should come in based

40:02

on their laws. And it's really important

40:04

that we respect other countries enforcing their

40:06

borders. Those labor MPs, according to the

40:08

Israelis, were coming in to do something

40:11

that they were not allowed to do.

40:13

And so I respect that decision. Kimi

40:15

seems to be showing more solidarity with the

40:17

Israeli government than two labor MPs here. I

40:19

mean, Nish, should we be surprised? No, I

40:22

mean, listen, at this point in

40:24

Kimi Badenog's already malfunctioning career

40:26

as the labor conservative conservative

40:28

conservative party. She is, she,

40:30

clutching at straws, is almost too

40:33

polite a description of what

40:35

she's doing. I think at

40:37

this point, if Kemi thought

40:39

it would score her anything

40:41

like a political point, she

40:43

would side with like North

40:45

Korea, Doctor Evil, whoever you

40:47

want to pick, she's so

40:49

frantically scrambling for anything approaching a

40:52

kind of headline, grab her in

40:54

a positive way. I don't agree

40:56

with this, but I at least

40:58

see the logic of saying that

41:00

people shouldn't come to the country

41:02

because they're spreading anti-Israeli hatred. But

41:04

I would also just draw people's

41:06

attention to the first part of

41:08

that, document the activities of the

41:10

security forces. Now, I would say,

41:13

if you are concerned about people

41:15

documenting the activities of your security

41:17

forces, that is because your security

41:19

forces are up to some shady

41:21

fucking shit. Last year, Israel

41:23

declared UN Secretary General Antonio

41:25

Gutierrez to be... undesirable and

41:28

prohibited him from entering the

41:30

country. Two members of the

41:32

European Parliament also denied entry

41:34

in February. There's sort of

41:36

two separate conversations here, which

41:38

is one, do we ever need

41:40

to take anything can be made

41:42

not say seriously anymore? Is there

41:45

any point? Are we wasting our

41:47

own time even having that conversation

41:49

about her? But two, how far

41:51

does the Israeli government have to push

41:54

it before our... unequivocal support which is

41:56

unequivocal to the unequivocalist unequivocal. I have

41:58

to take the kidding. possibly be

42:01

unequivocal. How much further

42:03

are they going to

42:05

have to push this before

42:08

we start engaging in

42:10

a reasonable dialogue around

42:12

the conduct of Netanyahu and

42:14

his government? Yeah, I mean,

42:16

on your first point. particularly

42:19

about Kemi Badenag. She just

42:21

wants to be anti-woke, anti-labor,

42:23

anti-neuance. It's not serious leadership

42:25

on the Israel question. And

42:27

I think this is really important.

42:29

You know, David Lammy came back

42:31

and said, how would you feel

42:33

if the Tory members in your

42:35

party who have been sanctioned by

42:37

China receive this kind of treatment?

42:39

And she came back and said,

42:41

well that's China, Israel's our ally.

42:43

Well, if there are ally, how

42:45

can we accept that kind of

42:47

treatment? extremely problematic for Labour having

42:49

this kind of relationship with Israel

42:51

with Netanyahu. And I think, you

42:53

know, to see your own, for Starman,

42:55

to see his own MPs detained, I

42:57

think it should be a real wake-up

43:00

call. Labour has made a rod for

43:02

its own back here. Israel has

43:04

shown contempt for elements of

43:07

international law. Organizations

43:09

like the ICC exist for

43:11

a reason. And that was part

43:13

of the rules-based international

43:15

order that we were an integral

43:17

part of setting up in the

43:20

aftermath of the Second World War.

43:22

So if the ICC issues arrest

43:24

warrants and Kiestammer is dismissive

43:26

of those, he is essentially

43:29

writing blank checks for Israel

43:31

to behave in any way, shape

43:33

or formacies fit. Some of this

43:35

is chickens coming home to roost

43:38

for Kiestam. I think that's absolutely

43:40

true and I think it's worth pointing

43:42

out that Yang particularly one of the

43:44

things that she said in Parliament was

43:46

that she wanted a ceasefire and that

43:49

it was absolutely imperative that journalists be

43:51

allowed into the region to make sure

43:53

that you know that there is the

43:55

highest levels of scrutiny and accountability when

43:57

this conflict is going on and the

44:00

UK, like the US has involvement

44:02

there, and to have that

44:04

MP turned away, detained and

44:06

deported at the border, for

44:08

asking for that minimal bit

44:10

of scrutiny, is extraordinary. And

44:12

I think tells you a

44:14

lot about a country that,

44:16

as you say, Nish, we

44:18

are supporting, that we are

44:20

providing military support to,

44:22

and that consistently is

44:25

showing disregard for international...

44:27

order and international law and I think

44:29

with Kirstam's background as a human rights

44:32

lawyer it is extraordinary to me that

44:34

he would turn a blind eye to

44:36

it and it's something that is going

44:38

to infuriate a lot of MPs. On

44:41

Monday a team of human rights

44:43

laws from the Hague delivered a

44:45

landmark verdict to the Met Police's

44:47

war crimes team, making accusations of

44:49

war crimes against 10 Britons who

44:52

served in the Israeli military in

44:54

Gaza. This is something that should

44:56

be really concerning us as a

44:58

country, right? Absolutely. So this was

45:00

a 240-page dossier reported on by

45:02

the Guardian that alleges some... extraordinarily

45:05

chilling things. So targeted killings of

45:07

civilians and aid workers, including by

45:09

sniper fire, indiscriminate attacks on civilian

45:11

areas, including hospitals, between October 2023

45:14

and May 2024. I mean, things

45:16

that a lot of people were

45:18

warning about and were saying that

45:20

were happening, it really is horrific

45:22

to read. And of course, Israel

45:25

has persistently denied that its political

45:27

leaders or military have committed war

45:29

crimes during its assault on Gaza, in

45:31

which it's killed more than 50,000 people.

45:33

course most of them civilians. And before

45:36

we go, it's just worth saying, we're

45:38

nine months into this parliament now. And

45:40

you know, there are things that the

45:42

Labour Party will want to tell as

45:44

kind of triumphs, you know, wins on

45:47

workers' rights, movements towards rail nationalisation. But

45:49

I guess like Zoe, before we go,

45:51

just like, why are they not doing

45:53

more things? Is this what it always

45:56

looks like to have your face pressed

45:58

up against the glass of... British politics,

46:00

or do you think there is something

46:02

in this idea that the Labour government

46:05

is not moving at the rate that

46:07

we would hope expect or even need

46:09

as a country? Yeah, I think there's

46:11

two things. So the first is the

46:13

factors that are sort of in their

46:15

control and that is that I think

46:17

there is just a lack of ambition

46:19

and a lack of desire to be

46:21

radical in the Labour government. I think

46:23

there is, you know, that Ming Vars

46:25

analogy that is always trotted out. It's

46:27

still carried over into government. It's this

46:29

this feeling that change has to be

46:31

incremental at a time where a lot

46:33

of the country feel like they don't

46:35

have the patience or maybe they just

46:37

don't even think they can survive incremental

46:39

change. You know, when you're talking about

46:42

people working several jobs and still having

46:44

to collect universal credit or people not

46:46

being able to keep their homes or

46:48

people having their benefits taken away, a

46:50

lot of people feel like they just

46:53

actually might not survive without... you know,

46:55

a radical change to the way society operates

46:57

and the way politicians operate. So we've seen

46:59

that in, you know, things like planning reform

47:01

and the employment rights bill. These things will

47:03

make a difference, but they're slow and they

47:06

take a long time and they have a

47:08

lot of players and Labour wants to make

47:10

sure everyone's happy. And I think it's just

47:12

that maybe that sort of nervousness, I'm sure

47:14

it's also because of the sort of right

47:17

of the Labour Party taking control as well.

47:19

They're obviously much more kind of worried about.

47:21

pragmatism and business and things like that. I

47:23

think it's also to do with the fact

47:25

that there isn't a lot of old hands

47:28

in this government. And then the other thing

47:30

is that all the reasons we've just spoken

47:32

about Nish, which is that the pace of

47:34

global change continues to divert the government's

47:36

agenda every week. You know, every time

47:38

Richard Reeves finds some fiscal headroom, well,

47:41

it gets wiped out by something somebody

47:43

is doing on the other side of

47:45

the world. Trump has completely turned their

47:47

plans upside down. There is stuff happening,

47:50

you know. the school's bill, employment's rights

47:52

bill, renters' reform, planning stuff, good

47:54

progressive stuff that can make a

47:56

difference. Part of it is that

47:58

we're just not... talking about it

48:01

much because the news is what's happening

48:03

in the rest of the world but

48:05

it's also that they feel the need

48:07

to get everyone on side and I

48:09

think that slows things down. Well look

48:11

it's it's Easter that's the time

48:13

of rebirth so fingers-cross we'll be

48:16

coming back we'll be coming back

48:18

into a reinvigorated Keatermer or indeed

48:20

an invigorated for the first time

48:22

Keatermer. But that is it. Thank

48:24

you so much for listening to

48:26

this week's show. Stay tuned for

48:28

a mailbag special next week where

48:30

Coco and I will be answering

48:32

all of your burning questions. And

48:34

don't forget to follow Pods Save the UK

48:37

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48:43

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48:47

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48:49

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48:52

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48:54

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48:56

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48:58

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49:00

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49:03

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