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0:27

USA. A. You know, some

0:29

of it's pretty good actually. Bob Marley's

0:31

on there. Bioncet's got a track on

0:33

there. Some of it is a bit

0:36

less cool. Michael Bublay and possibly everyone's

0:38

like least favorite Kylie Mano track. Well,

0:40

Coco, you're wrong there because there's no

0:42

such thing as a bad Kylie Manoke

0:44

song. This is all low-hanging fruit so

0:47

far. Where are the sex pistols? Where's

0:49

God Save the Queen? Where's anarchy in

0:51

the UK? There's a level of self-awareness

0:53

there, Nish, that I don't mean to

0:55

disappoint you, but it's not something that

0:58

we often get from our beloved royals,

1:00

but speaking of anarchy and God. certainly

1:02

the Messiah at least. Today we're going

1:04

to be discussing the all-out civil war

1:06

in reform UK. And Kirstaama says that

1:09

our benefit system is the worst of

1:11

all worlds. So they're going to make

1:13

it harder for people with disabilities to

1:15

claim. We'll be speaking with Mike

1:18

Earhart, Disability Rights, UK. So let's

1:20

kick off of the first piece of good

1:22

news I've heard so far this year. Reform

1:24

is falling apart again. I will not be singing

1:26

it to the tune of Lovell Terrorist

1:28

Apart. regardless of how much people

1:30

want me to do that. I don't wish to

1:33

associate that song with Nigel Farage in any way

1:35

shape or form. You have to admit it is

1:37

fitting them. Well look the producers have banned

1:39

me for making any jokes about my

1:42

erections in this segment so let's just

1:44

say I am ragingly engaged with this

1:46

story. Nurse Mitch is having a moment. I

1:48

think the word you were looking for by

1:50

the way is engorgged. Oh God, it's AAM

1:52

in Nashville Coco, I don't need to

1:54

hear the word engorged at this time

1:56

of the morning. So look, here's the

1:59

basics. Rupert Lo, famously fan-boyed by Elon

2:01

Musk, is out of reform. Why? Well,

2:03

the story from the reform side is

2:05

that he bullied staff and made threats

2:08

of violence against the party chair Zia

2:10

Yusuf. The Met Police have now launched

2:12

an investigation. Rupert Lowe denies any wrongdoing

2:14

and says the allegations are untrue. The

2:16

story from Mr Lowe's side is that

2:19

he's being pushed out because he dares

2:21

to question the party's messianic leader. The

2:23

rancorous war of world has played out

2:25

across social media over the last week

2:27

and if it were possible has somehow

2:30

managed to make them appear even less

2:32

ready for any kind of serious rolling.

2:34

So as a quick reminder, reform had

2:36

five MPs, so with the loss of

2:38

Rupert Low, they've lost a whopping 20%

2:41

of their MPs. That puts them on

2:43

the same footing in the commons as

2:45

the Greens. Not that you'd be able

2:47

to tell by the enormous amount of

2:50

press they seem to receive. We've seen

2:52

so, so, so, so much bluster about

2:54

reform from the right-wing press over the

2:56

last few months. So what do you

2:58

think, Nish? Is this going to finally

3:01

shut up his cheerleaders in the right-wing

3:03

press? Reform is a sort of chaotic

3:05

rabble, a kind of motley crew of

3:07

opportunists, gold coin sales people, and racists.

3:09

I mean, during the election campaign, activists

3:12

for the party were filmed on camera

3:14

using racial slurs about the then prime

3:16

minutes to Rishisunai. There's nothing about them.

3:18

that's ready for any serious role in

3:21

government and nothing about Nigel Farage's political

3:23

career has ever suggested he has a

3:25

real interest in playing any role in

3:27

government. The thing about Farage is that

3:29

he is a campaigner. He's not actually

3:32

a political leader but that isn't going

3:34

to stop the right-wing press from cheerleading

3:36

for him relentlessly. I don't see this

3:38

as denting Farage because I imagine it

3:40

will lead to a slew of op-head

3:43

pieces in the telegraph of the mail

3:45

and the times talking about how brilliant...

3:47

forages and how Rupert Low was the

3:49

problem. Where it could create an issue

3:51

for them is this kind of issue

3:54

of will Elon Musk intervening British politics.

3:56

because there was this idea that he

3:58

was going to make this enormous reform

4:00

donation. Then he said that Farage has

4:03

stepped aside. His relationship seems to cleave

4:05

closer to Rupert Low at the moment,

4:07

so that's where it could cause problems

4:09

for the party, though it does seem

4:11

like that Farage's bridges with Musk have

4:14

already been burned. I think it's worth

4:16

stating as well that the creative differences

4:18

that these two are having is about

4:20

whether complete... actual far-right nutters should be

4:22

allowed in the party. Tommy Robinson, for

4:25

example. That's what this creative difference is

4:27

about. So it couldn't be more grim,

4:29

really. Also, the thing that kicked all

4:31

of this off kind of is the

4:34

right-wing press. So Lo complained to the

4:36

Daily Mail that reform had remained a

4:38

protest party led by the Messiah under

4:40

Farage. Lo also claimed that he himself...

4:42

was barely six months into being an

4:45

MP and in the betting to be

4:47

the next prime minister which seems a

4:49

bit much isn't it? You've only been

4:51

an MP for six months and you

4:53

think you're going to be the next

4:56

prime minister? Also everyone's in the betting

4:58

for everything. That's not how betting works.

5:00

I could technically say I'm in the

5:02

betting for the Nobel Peace price. I'll

5:04

send an email niche. Yeah, exactly, yeah.

5:07

Your odds are like several billion to

5:09

one. Exactly. I'm in the betting to

5:11

be the next James Bond. I'm putting

5:13

it out there. Okay. I've put a

5:16

bet on myself to be the next

5:18

James Bond. Oh no, we're going to

5:20

see this in the mail. I imagine

5:22

it's going to be pretty weird because

5:24

Jeff Basis has taken it over and

5:27

so I guess the next Bond film

5:29

is just going to be James Bond

5:31

beating up climate protesters and union workers.

5:33

with an Alexa. That's what the next

5:35

James Bond is going to be. So

5:38

I'm not sure anyone really wants to

5:40

be part of it, but I'm saying

5:42

now of the same logic that Rupert

5:44

Low is in the betting to be

5:47

the next Prime Minister. I'm in the

5:49

betting to be the next James Bond.

5:51

I have this theory about Rupert Low

5:53

that you know he's a boomer that's

5:55

online too much. You know I'm sure

5:58

some flagshaggers and bots have said you

6:00

should be the next Prime Minister. and

6:02

they've tweeted that to him, but that

6:04

doesn't mean it real, just like it's

6:06

not real that like hot girls in

6:09

your area are not looking to meet

6:11

guys like you. You know what I

6:13

mean? None of this is real. But

6:15

nonetheless, as reform flounders, this week the

6:17

government is rolling the pitch for upcoming

6:20

cuts in the spring budget. A couple

6:22

of months ago, all signs were pointing

6:24

to this being something of a non-event.

6:26

There was even hints of it being

6:29

skipped. huge benefit cuts to the tune

6:31

of six billion pounds. More on that

6:33

with our guest Mikey Earhart later, but

6:35

we've also heard plans from the Health

6:37

Secretary to cut half, that's right, half

6:39

of the staff of NHS England. So

6:41

we'd already expected the loss of around

6:44

2,000 jobs, but the latest is that

6:46

6,500 jobs are set to go. So

6:48

these are office-based jobs, not frontline medical

6:51

staff, and alongside this announcement there's been

6:53

an exodus of almost all of the

6:55

staff at the top of the top

6:57

of the organization. And this is just

7:00

the first step of the government's plans

7:02

to cut back on the number of

7:04

civil servants in Whitehall, the bonfire of

7:07

the bureaucrats as the Daily Mail is

7:09

calling it. This week, Cabinet Office Minister

7:11

Pat McFadden will set out plans to

7:14

disrupt the status quo to achieve an

7:16

active and modern state. Now, without further

7:18

clarification on what all of these cuts

7:21

look like, it's all starting to feel

7:23

vaguely trumpet, you know, in the

7:25

absence of any actual specific information

7:27

on... where these cuts are coming

7:29

from, this general idea of a

7:31

sort of bonfire of bureaucrats,

7:33

it does feel a bit doge, that's

7:36

all I'm saying. Part of the measures

7:38

will mean that any civil servant

7:40

performing below expectations may be incentivised

7:43

to leave their jobs with McFadden

7:45

promising a new mutually agreed exits

7:47

process. So it's not quite a

7:49

chain saw, but it is a

7:52

very hefty pair of garden shares.

7:54

Performance related pay is also on

7:56

the cards alongside more digitalisation of

7:58

the civil service. service. I mean

8:01

we all think computers are good and

8:03

better than paper I guess but you

8:05

know what does that actually mean? Shadow

8:07

Tory Home Secretary Chris Philp has said

8:10

that the plans are weak and anemic

8:12

compared to what they would have done

8:14

but even the very suggestion that These

8:17

are in line with Tory plans, suggests

8:19

heavily that they're not going to be

8:21

facing any real meaningful opposition to these

8:23

in Parliament. And look, we should say

8:26

that in a week where reform is

8:28

kind of imploding, and the Conservative Party,

8:30

I mean, appears to have gone absent

8:33

without leave. I don't know if anybody's

8:35

heard from the Tories, or if anyone

8:37

has seen any of them, if you

8:39

have seen a Conservative MP recently, please.

8:42

phone in where possible because they do

8:44

just seem to have sunk without a

8:46

trace and whilst that is obviously incredibly

8:49

funny it is also concerning that we

8:51

don't seem to have functional or meaningful

8:53

opposition to the government from the largest

8:56

party of opposition like that is a

8:58

genuine concern. The unions of course they're

9:00

speaking up against it so the civil

9:02

servants union accused the government of delivering

9:05

a sound bite not a credible plan

9:07

for change and described it as a

9:09

retreading of failed narratives. At the end

9:12

of last year Starmer was accused of

9:14

using insulting and Trumpian language by the

9:16

head of the FDA after he said

9:18

that too many people in white talk

9:21

are comfortable in the tepid bath of

9:23

managed decline. I mean it's kind of

9:25

poeticic but... Wow, I mean that doesn't

9:28

sound like a Labour Prime Minister does

9:30

it? Well I mean the whole country

9:32

has been in a tepid bath of

9:34

managed decline for about 15 years. You

9:37

know your energy bills are still increasing,

9:39

your food shop is still increasing, the

9:41

government's telling you that it's set fire

9:44

to a load of bureaucrats. It all

9:46

feels a little bit like... my roof

9:48

was falling in and someone said you

9:50

need to install a better burglar alarm.

9:53

You go dealing with completely irrelevant problems

9:55

at the moment. But now let's look

9:57

beyond our borders. So Canada has a

10:00

new leader and it's a name that

10:02

you might be familiar with. It's Mark

10:04

Kearney, former governor of the Bank of

10:07

England. succeeded Justin Trudeau to become Prime

10:09

Minister. It was quite strange. I was

10:11

in Canada. I started this leg of

10:13

the tour in Toronto and at the

10:16

time Mark Kearney was obviously being heavily

10:18

touted as the next Prime Minister of

10:20

Canada, the person who would lead the

10:23

Liberal Party into the elections this year.

10:25

Obviously Mark Kearney is Canadian. I knew

10:27

that and yet he was such a

10:29

fixture on British news that when I

10:32

arrived in Canada I was like what

10:34

the hell is Mark Kearney doing in

10:36

Canadian news? Like what how was this

10:39

happened? It was like seeing Joey Trebiani

10:41

turn up in an episode of Frasier,

10:43

like it was so odd. Carly's presence

10:45

has upset everyone's favorite former British Prime

10:48

Minister of course Liz trust tweeted yet

10:50

another inadverted commerce impartial British bureaucrat goes

10:52

into left-wing politics at the Bank of

10:55

England carnie backed ruinous net zero policies

10:57

and money printing the British state is

10:59

completely rigged it's worth pointing out at

11:01

this moment that Mark Harnie was appointed

11:04

by George Osborne the Conservative Republican leftist.

11:06

Yeah, that well-known leftist George Osborne. I

11:08

mean, Karney becoming Prime Minister is probably

11:11

good for the UK in terms of

11:13

UK and Canadian relations. He backed Rachel

11:15

Reese for Chancellor and he was instrumental

11:17

in creating our new national wealth fund.

11:20

I just find it funny like that

11:22

this conspiracy that so many figures on

11:24

the right have, including a former Prime

11:27

Minister, that everyone that does an impartial

11:29

job is secretly a lefty. I wish,

11:31

babe. Oh, babe, how I wish. You

11:34

know, the universities are full of lefties,

11:36

not my university. You know what I

11:38

mean? Like, the BBC's full of lefties?

11:40

Really? I wish you're about that. I

11:43

think some of them have tried to

11:45

run for your party. I just, it's,

11:47

what a strange conspiracy that I have.

11:50

Are these lefties in the room with

11:52

you now, Liz? Anyway, Kearney's going to

11:54

be an interesting foil to the US

11:56

president, power force heats up. But as

11:59

always, for more on this, you should

12:01

tune into Pods Save the World, where

12:03

Tommy and Ben discuss the growing trade

12:06

wars, the hints of peace in the

12:08

Ukraine, and how Carly might fight Trump.

12:10

And also a quick reminder that we

12:12

want your questions for our up and

12:14

coming mail bag special. They can be

12:17

stupid, they can be funny, but you

12:19

can also ask us a serious political

12:21

question too. As a sneak peek we've

12:23

had this response from Simon who didn't

12:25

have a question but more of a

12:27

comment. He said I can't believe you

12:29

ended your episode on feminism by calling

12:31

it a male bag. Hashtag cancelled. What

12:33

is he suggesting instead then? I

12:36

guess a female bag? No, we can't

12:38

have female bag. That's, you know,

12:40

a bag is a vessel. It's

12:42

just, it's, it's, it's, it's saying

12:45

things that I don't think we

12:47

really want to be communicating. We

12:49

could do it gender neutral. We

12:51

could do it as a veil bag. Huh?

12:54

I mean, listen, I don't hate it.

12:56

I felt my most auntie there

12:58

when I said it. I

13:00

was like, oh God, this

13:02

was like a glimpse into

13:05

my future. Now, after the

13:07

break, we're speaking to disability

13:09

rights campaigner, Mikey Earhart about

13:11

the government's brutal ideas for

13:13

reforming our welfare system.

13:15

Hot Save The UK is brought

13:18

to you by Sky Sports. Coco,

13:20

what are you most excited about this

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crumble at the raw emotions. He's a

13:29

Lewis Hamilton super fan I don't know

13:31

if I've told you before and the

13:33

Lewis Hamilton story right now

13:35

is probably at its most exciting.

13:37

He's moving to Ferrari. Yes, that's right.

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After over a decade with Mercedes, Hamilton

13:42

is taking on the biggest challenge of

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his career, driving for the most legendary

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team in F1 history. Can he bring

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Ferrari back to the top? Will the

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pressure of the prancing horse prove too

13:53

much? F1 isn't just about speed. It's

13:55

about the live experience and the raw

13:58

emotions that Coca-Cola's partner goes. of seeing

14:00

the drivers come alive. The ecstasy,

14:02

the agony. No, it's going to

14:04

be really, really exciting. So from

14:06

Monaco's tight corners, so the high-speed

14:09

chaos of Silverston, every race is

14:11

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14:13

the clock, but against the competition,

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the strategy, the nerves. You know,

14:17

a lot of these races have

14:19

long rivalries at the heart of

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them. I am told that Max

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Verstappen is a baddy. So anyway,

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Restrictions apply. That's according

15:13

to the Prime Minister,

15:15

speaking to Labour colleagues

15:18

on Monday evening. Here's

15:20

the Prime Minister at

15:22

PMQs on Wednesday. We inherited a

15:24

system which is broken, it is

15:27

indefensible economically and morally, and we

15:29

must and we will reform it.

15:31

We will have clear principles, Mr

15:34

Speaker. We will protect those who

15:36

need protecting. We will also support

15:39

those who can work. to work,

15:41

but labour is the party of

15:43

work. We are also the party

15:46

of equality and fairness. This drug

15:48

rhetoric arrives ahead of heavily-trailed cuts

15:50

to the welfare budget, which

15:53

ITVs in Uzbekistan reports to

15:55

be in the ballpark of

15:57

£6 billion a year, £5

15:59

billion. of that saving is to

16:01

be made through cutting personal independence

16:03

payments, commonly known as PIPs. PIPs

16:05

are benefits not linked to work.

16:07

They exist to help pay for

16:09

the extra costs in life of

16:11

having a disability and according to

16:13

the DWP there's around 3.6 million

16:16

claimants across the UK. Disability and

16:18

poverty charities have urged the government

16:20

to rethink its plans. Writing in

16:22

an open letter that without PIP

16:24

a further 700,000 disabled households could

16:26

be pushed into poverty. So joining

16:28

us now to understand how this

16:30

is going to impact the lives

16:32

of PIP claimants across the country

16:34

is Mikey Earhart from Disability Rights

16:36

UK. Welcome to the pod. Hi there. Thank you

16:38

so much for having me. So these feel like,

16:41

I mean brutal cuts. How would they

16:43

affect the lives of people claiming? I

16:45

mean they're going to be... hugely challenging,

16:47

I think. We don't have a

16:49

benefit system in this country that

16:51

provides right now for most people.

16:53

I think trying to find further

16:55

savings, trying to find ways of

16:57

reducing the amount of support people

16:59

get, it's just going to push

17:01

people into further poverty. Those who

17:04

are on that sort of cliff

17:06

edge into deeper poverty and beyond

17:08

that as well, I think it

17:10

just further entrenches that divide that

17:12

we have in this country between

17:14

disabled people. working class people

17:16

who require state support in some way

17:18

and people who don't and this gap is

17:20

going to continue to emerge. PIP is not

17:22

that much money. It's not like a life-changing

17:25

sum that people might think. It isn't. And

17:27

the way that PIP is talked about and

17:29

the way that I guess much of the media and

17:31

ministers and their common steam like to

17:33

talk about PIP is to put it into

17:36

this big model of how the benefit system

17:38

works and it's important to split these things

17:40

out, right, right? There is universal credit and

17:42

sometimes things like employment and support allowance on

17:44

one side. These are your benefits that you

17:47

get as a result of being unable to

17:49

work or unemployed for some reason and the

17:51

amount of money you get which is pretty

17:53

inadequate right? It speaks to any poverty charity

17:55

and they will tell you it's not enough

17:57

but you get those very defined criteria and

17:59

reasons. and there's lots of stripped

18:01

assessments for those. There's a whole other

18:04

ballpark of strict assessment for PIP, but

18:06

PIP is there to accept in some ways that

18:08

it costs small money to be disabled. A

18:10

round about 12 grand a year to be

18:12

disabled to be disabled to be disabled to

18:15

live the life of a non-disabled person, right?

18:17

If you take sort of rough averages,

18:19

that's where the disability charity

18:21

scope puts it. Really hard to do like

18:23

a ballpark average figure for what you

18:25

get from PIP, but if you really

18:27

draw it like down the middle. you

18:30

might get like 7,000 pounds a year

18:32

from PIP, right? If you're right down

18:34

the middle and some people get more,

18:36

some people get less, but those two

18:38

numbers, right, I'm not an economist, those

18:40

are not the same. 12 is more

18:42

than seven, your listeners might be pleased

18:44

to hear, good job if they did

18:46

that at home, but like, it's not

18:49

an amount of money, and to try

18:51

and find savings within that almost

18:53

always means, and as we're sort of

18:55

seeing trail that... we might have the

18:57

level of PIP frozen, so it

19:00

won't go up with inflation, that

19:02

is just people losing money, and

19:04

we're going to make it harder

19:06

to qualify for PIP, which is

19:08

really quite devastating, really quite depressing

19:10

I think for a lot of

19:13

people receiving that news at the

19:15

moment because as we said, right,

19:17

PIP is there, it acknowledges that

19:19

it costs more to be disabled

19:21

because suddenly you don't qualify. So

19:23

when Kiastama says that they'll protect

19:26

those that need protecting, what's he

19:28

talking about there? Because I understand

19:30

the half of his rhetoric that's

19:32

associated with efficiencies, we understand how

19:34

that's going to manifest itself, freezing

19:36

pit payments. What's the other half

19:39

of this equation? It's a bit of

19:41

an oxymoron, right? To say we're going to take

19:43

money that we know you need for essentials away

19:45

from you, but don't worry. We somehow have

19:47

your back. It's pretty frustrating, it's quite

19:49

worrying. I think for a lot of

19:51

disabled people across this country, this isn't

19:53

new, it feels a bit like DeJavu,

19:55

right? Like, this is yet another Prime

19:58

Minister, seeing economic damage. or

20:00

poor economic numbers and pulling at the

20:02

level that they seem to have at

20:04

number 10 that is cut the benefits

20:06

bill. You know, when you were talking

20:08

earlier about the cost to be disabled

20:11

is around 12,000 pounds. People that are

20:13

disabled and working will be made poorer

20:15

by these changes. So it doesn't even

20:17

serve their fucked up ideology if that

20:19

makes sense. It's going to disable people

20:22

across society, right? And not just disabled

20:24

people with long-term health conditions. And some

20:26

of this like... rhetoric around an explosion

20:28

of claimants is just not true, basically.

20:30

Quite a lot comes down to us

20:33

raising the pension age for and over

20:35

again, and then, yeah, surprise, surprise, as

20:37

people aren't getting state pension, they're around

20:39

without support for longer, they're getting older,

20:41

they might require things like pay up,

20:44

that explains a little bit of the

20:46

growth there. It means we've ended up

20:48

where we are not, where it's easier,

20:50

right? It's easier to do, in some

20:53

ways, the horrible thing of cutting benefits

20:55

than it is to do. a bit

20:57

of to use the government's own language

20:59

hard work to roll up their sleeves,

21:01

a bit ironic that they might be

21:04

scared of doing something like that, but

21:06

to test the different approach, build a

21:08

different benefit system, do something that actually

21:10

provides people tangible support day to day.

21:12

That feels too difficult to do. And

21:15

so we pull the same lever again

21:17

and again. Is it possible to also

21:19

make the argument that not only we

21:21

viewing disability through completely the wrong lens,

21:23

we're also even viewing the economics of

21:26

these payments completely the wrong way around?

21:28

Estimates from pro bono economics suggest that

21:30

for every pound of money spent on

21:32

PIP and disability living allowance, payments actually

21:34

get around one pound 48 of well-being

21:37

improvements, you know, at a time where

21:39

every pound you spend seems to be

21:41

going less far than it ever did.

21:43

This is actually an example of something

21:45

that is... genuinely good value for money.

21:48

So is this also, are we completely

21:50

wrong headed, not just in our approach

21:52

to disability, but also in our approach

21:54

to the economics around this conversation? Oh,

21:57

absolutely. The benefit system exists as a

21:59

safety net for everyone, right? You can

22:01

become disabled. can become unemployed at any

22:03

point in your life, right? There's almost

22:05

one in five people are disabled in

22:08

this country, where massively diverse group, loads

22:10

of different backgrounds, lifestyles, impairment. Our lives

22:12

are not defined by economic value, but

22:14

if you want to go down that

22:16

line of thinking, yeah, of course it's

22:19

bad economic thinking. But what it comes

22:21

down to is it's easier for the

22:23

treasury for the D.W.P. to look at

22:25

this from a money in, money out

22:27

type perspective. to do something on a

22:30

spreadsheet that has really, really negative impacts

22:32

for people, then be brave and look

22:34

at it like you said through that

22:36

different lens of understanding what the benefit

22:38

system is there for. If you're supported

22:41

by an adequate benefit system, you might

22:43

be able to find better work in

22:45

the future. You might become as the

22:47

government wants everyone to be more economically

22:49

engaged. because you have that support system

22:52

there, right? It's so hard. I don't

22:54

think people understand how difficult it is

22:56

to live on the benefit system and

22:58

how difficult it is to live on

23:01

the benefit system for a long period

23:03

of time. You're not going to do

23:05

the things the government want you to

23:07

do, which is, you know, get in

23:09

a position to find work. We do

23:12

have to ask the question of like

23:14

what work, where, where do these sort

23:16

of jobs exist that the government in

23:18

particular seem to say what people could

23:20

just fall into and not doing enough

23:23

of. So we've spoken about how these

23:25

cuts have a wrongheadedness in terms of

23:27

the economy, but there's also a wrongheadedness

23:29

in terms of just... political gaming, right?

23:31

Like is this is clever for labour?

23:34

So the usually moderate trade union Congress

23:36

Secretary Paul Novak. He's warned that a

23:38

major lesson from the Tory years is

23:40

that austerity damaged the nation's health. We

23:42

must not make the same mistake again.

23:45

So you know, trade unions themselves are

23:47

speaking out against labour and then there's

23:49

dissent within Labour's own ranks. So here's

23:51

Nadia Witten speaking to BBC Radio Force

23:54

Today program. Look, I was on these

23:56

benefits. My mum had to stop work.

23:58

when I was a teenager to care

24:00

for me. I represent disabled people, all

24:02

of us do, and we all hear

24:05

their stories every day and just how

24:07

scared they are about this and what

24:09

a difference these payments make to their

24:11

lives. I can't look, I can't look,

24:13

my constituents in the eye, I can't

24:16

look my mum in the eye and

24:18

support this. Hearing that, are you hopeful

24:20

the government might change its tack? We've

24:22

got a long time to go with this,

24:24

right? It's a green paper that's going to

24:27

be coming out, and I think for listeners,

24:29

don't know there's just a process that well.

24:31

Green papers are the consultative stage. What this

24:34

sort of week of media has shown is

24:36

that people know this bill is not going

24:38

to make a difference to the long-standing issues

24:40

across society. The effects are pretty obvious.

24:43

People are going to get sicker. We're going to

24:45

undermine people's right to a decent

24:47

quality of life and we're going to

24:49

continue to entrench barriers to access and

24:51

employment and social inclusion that we always

24:53

disable people have a right to. And I

24:56

think most politicians know that as well and it's

24:58

the time for them, you know, to be brave

25:00

to stand up in the way that we've,

25:02

you know, heard politicians stand up for their

25:04

constituents in the last week and we have

25:07

to commend those who do that. It's not

25:09

always the easiest thing to do. But I

25:11

think the other side as well is for

25:13

disabled people across the country to remember that

25:16

we represent a enormous group across society. There

25:18

are millions of us. And whilst a bill

25:20

like this is in its consultative stage, that's

25:22

the time where... It's often most important

25:24

to, as an individual, do the things

25:27

that sometimes feel not as meaningful,

25:29

reaching out to your MP, going

25:31

to constituency surgeries, responding to the

25:33

consultation as an individual, and those are

25:35

like things that you can tangibly do, that

25:37

listeners can tangibly do, because this is the

25:39

stage in which the government has to see

25:41

that there is no social majority for this,

25:43

and I think they know that, but they're

25:45

going to apparently keep ploughing ahead anyway, and

25:47

they need to know that that's not something

25:49

that... that they can get away with. Like

25:51

you were saying, lots of people haven't interacted with

25:54

the benefit system. For people who have, I think

25:56

we all know that like it's like getting blood

25:58

from a stone and like you say... do get

26:00

some blood, you can barely live off

26:02

here and that's putting aside all the

26:05

like way that it hinders you from

26:07

actually getting better and just the indignation

26:09

of it all. Do you think it

26:11

would be worthwhile in the kind of

26:14

public consciousness of separating out disability and

26:16

so for example Universal Credit, right? Because

26:18

I think in the mind they just

26:20

see everyone as being and I quote

26:22

on benefits and they have this bogeyman

26:25

of being on benefits, would it be

26:27

helpful to disabled people for there to

26:29

be a separation or is actually the

26:31

fact that they are sort of rolled

26:33

up together makes sense because there is

26:36

a relationship between poverty and poor

26:38

working conditions and bad health? I

26:40

genuinely don't know. What do you

26:42

think? It's an interesting question. I think

26:44

the two ways I'd approach that is the

26:46

first thing to sort of understand is that

26:48

no one's worth is defined by your ability

26:50

to work. Right, there are lots of people

26:53

who just won't, no matter how we change

26:55

the world of work, be able to work.

26:57

And we're not changing the world of work

26:59

fast enough, right? Like, some of this hinges

27:01

on the idea that the, you know, the

27:03

employment rights bill is going to completely change

27:06

Britain's working conditions. And even if you take

27:08

that at face value. It's not happening any

27:10

time soon. But I think the other element

27:12

to unpick and you chat to any government

27:14

minister at the moment and you'd think the

27:16

whole point of our social security system, our

27:18

benefit system, is to get people into work.

27:21

But it's not. It's meant to be a

27:23

safety net that supports you when you need

27:25

it. And I think that's the separation that

27:27

we need. It's not a funnel for you

27:29

to get into work. It's a safety net.

27:31

Like I think the last thing I'd like

27:33

to say is that you cannot take. what is

27:36

happening in the benefits system, what's happening

27:38

this week, and will probably happen over

27:40

the next like months with this bill,

27:42

away from how poor our public services

27:45

are, and how little they support

27:47

disabled people, right? We aren't going to

27:49

get change on social care until potentially

27:51

the end of this Parliament, right? We're

27:53

getting a review on something that

27:55

is fundamental for lots of disabled

27:58

people to live in independence. live

29:41

You What's

29:46

safe the UK is brought to you by

29:48

Shopify? That sound you just heard is the

29:51

sound of another sale on Shopify the

29:53

all-in-one commerce platform to start run and

29:55

grow yuck. this

32:30

question multiple times to Amazon

32:32

representatives about recurring strikes at

32:34

their warehouses in Coventry. Here

32:36

was their response at the

32:38

Business and Trade Select Committee

32:40

in December last year. If you are

32:42

that great a place to work, why have

32:44

your workers in Coventry gone on strike so

32:47

much? Our

32:49

employees have the right to join a

32:51

trade union or not to join a trained

32:53

union and we totally respect that. I'm really,

32:55

I'm, Mr. Paul, I'm pulling teeth at this

32:58

point. Neither of you answer that question so

33:00

far. I'll ask it once more. I'll ask

33:02

it once more and then I'll give up

33:04

because I don't think I'm going to get

33:07

an answer. Why have they gone on strike

33:09

so much? What is the reason behind it?

33:11

You talked to workers every day you've told

33:13

us and that's what your teams do. So

33:16

when you asked them, why are you going

33:18

on strike? What's their answer actually? Why

33:20

are they striking? They were demonstrating

33:22

their right to support the trade union

33:24

that they were a member of, simply

33:27

put. So while Amazon bosses repeatedly failed

33:29

to give an answer there, Laura

33:31

Carrera's award-winning new fiction film on

33:33

falling draws on her personal experiences

33:35

and interviews with warehouse workers around

33:37

the country to give unique insight

33:39

into the human cost of today's

33:41

algorithm-driven gig economy. She joins us

33:43

now, Laura, welcome to Ponce, the

33:45

UK. Hi, thank you for having

33:47

me. So first of all, congratulations

33:49

on the film, it is excellent.

33:51

For the listeners, please do go

33:53

and see it. It follows a

33:55

young Portuguese woman living in Scotland

33:57

who works as a picker in a huge warehouse.

34:00

She's one of the many migrant workers who

34:02

make up the workforce. So I guess my

34:04

very first question is, what inspired you to

34:06

make this film? I've been kind of interested

34:08

at looking at our relationship to work

34:10

because I think it's something that we

34:12

normalize so much and we don't question

34:14

it. I started reading more and more

34:16

about insecure work and it got me to

34:18

discover the job of a picker, logistics

34:20

industry being an issue that is rife

34:23

with precarious labor. This job to me

34:25

was just so surprising the way it

34:27

existed, you know, when companies brag about

34:29

how fast the parcel gets to you,

34:31

you rarely imagine someone that is surrounded

34:33

by millions of items being told by

34:35

a scanner, like down to the seconds

34:37

that along they have to get to

34:40

the next item. It felt like kind

34:42

of dystopian and it felt important to

34:44

show that reality. You have those scenes where workers

34:46

are being essentially hounded by the beep of

34:48

a machine saying go faster and it's... you

34:50

know, the juxtaposition of some of the sort

34:53

of ridiculous absurd items that they're picking up

34:55

that are not meaningless and not important and

34:57

the stress of someone trying to get it

34:59

to you. I mean, how did you pick

35:01

out all these little details? How did you

35:03

come to them? So a lot of them

35:05

came from conversations that I had with pickers

35:08

questioning, like, would you do every day? Would

35:10

you do outside work? Like, how is your

35:12

routine? It felt like people were actually really

35:14

engaged to tell me about their lives.

35:16

I think all of these ridiculous things

35:18

like you know how the rewards can

35:20

be like chocolate bars you know that

35:22

really don't seem to like be rewarding

35:24

the hard work that is behind it.

35:26

People know what's going on you know

35:28

and I think they understand these dynamics

35:30

and you know they're very happy to

35:33

share their stories when they're asked. I'm

35:35

glad you mentioned food there because it

35:37

was one of the details that stood

35:39

out to me you know the lead

35:41

character is always eating bread all the

35:43

time because it's easy and it's cheap.

35:45

sometimes portrayals of poverty can fall into

35:47

sensationalism in Les Mies in Les Mies

35:49

Rob. I think I'm pretty sure one

35:51

of the characters sells Ed Heath and

35:53

you know in this it's the sort

35:55

of subtle little details of every day

35:57

that lead to despair. There's not this...

36:00

big massive thing that happens. It's just

36:02

a small incident. In this case it

36:04

was the simplicity of a phone screen

36:06

smashing and that knocking on the knock-on

36:08

effect to like can't pay this bill,

36:10

can't socialise with people, now you're feeling

36:12

isolated, now your confidence is not, now

36:14

you're all alone and you captured that

36:17

really really well. I suppose what stayed

36:19

with you, what were the testimonies from

36:21

the workers that haunted you and what

36:23

was some that didn't make it into

36:25

the film? it existed in almost all

36:27

the conversations that I had, the sense

36:29

that maybe another job would also not

36:31

fix their problem. And I think it

36:34

comes from this sense of vulnerability, you

36:36

know, or our experience is this insecurity that

36:38

is financial, but then she's also, like you

36:40

said, it kind of taints all other aspects

36:43

of her life. And I think it's also

36:45

what it does to you, you know, like

36:47

to your sense of self, because a lot

36:49

of the conversations were obviously around how like

36:52

physically demanding the job is. but then a

36:54

lot of the times these conversations would turn

36:56

slightly darker and kind of you know people

36:58

would say how actually psychologically it was really

37:00

difficult to be on your own for that

37:02

amount of hours and then also you know

37:05

by the end of the day if you're

37:07

too tired that you can only kind of

37:09

rest then it's also very hard to develop

37:11

a life outside work and so yeah you slowly

37:13

begin to you know get more and more

37:15

isolated and yeah that was part of the

37:17

struggle that I was trying to bring into

37:19

the film. Also because so many of these

37:22

topics sometimes are kind of framed within like

37:24

the individual's fault, this entire discourse of placing

37:26

the blame in the individual is completely wrong

37:28

to me. And when so many of us

37:30

are struggling with these things, I think it's

37:33

more and more important to start looking at

37:35

it collectively. Yeah, well when they call it

37:37

a livelihood for a reason, it's meant to

37:39

be, it's meant to enhance your life rather

37:41

than deprive you of life. This is just

37:44

a small tangent. When my mum moved to

37:46

this country, her husband worked at the Ford

37:48

factory, we're from East London, there were loads

37:50

of South Asians working at the Ford factory and

37:52

she talks about how like they, a lot of

37:54

their friends were from the Ford factory and everyone

37:56

kind of knew each other from the Ford factory.

37:58

And I often think about that. I'm sure the

38:00

work itself wasn't the greatest, but they have

38:02

this real vibrant community and essentially like the

38:05

job is made great by the other people.

38:07

And you do have a little bit of

38:09

that, these little bits of light from other

38:11

people. But there's clearly a relationship, isn't it,

38:14

between exploitation and migration? I just wondered

38:16

what your thoughts were when you explored

38:18

this film. Yeah, I mean, I think

38:20

I brought a lot of my experiences

38:22

over those first years of moving to

38:25

Scotland. So I moved to Scotland 12

38:27

years ago from Portugal. I was 18.

38:29

It was the first time that I

38:31

started working. And I think those first

38:33

jobs, you know, those first minimum wage

38:36

jobs really kind of made me look at

38:38

life slightly differently. And I think yeah,

38:40

any time, you know, you move to

38:42

another country and you don't have the

38:44

social ties, then, you know, your life

38:46

becomes slightly more defined by work and

38:48

you're put in a position of more

38:50

vulnerability. As I was researching, I realized

38:52

a lot of the workers I was

38:54

speaking to were migrant workers and so

38:56

it felt like it was important

38:59

to bring my own experiences into

39:01

the film. Over the past few

39:03

years workers at these distribution warehouses

39:05

or fulfilment centres are sometimes called,

39:07

which I think is really dystopian little

39:10

ironic. Yeah, they've been demanding better paying

39:12

conditions. So a 2024 survey of

39:14

frontline workers by Quinnix found that 60%

39:16

of them experienced workplace stress, 39% blame

39:19

low pay for it. Many people

39:21

say just go and get another job.

39:23

Why do you think people put

39:25

up with it? I think

39:27

necessity, you know, there's that idea of like,

39:29

oh yeah, you can go out and get

39:32

a better job. I think a lot of

39:34

the people I talked to question that actually

39:36

because that was sometimes something I even questioned,

39:39

you know, are you looking for another job?

39:41

And sometimes I'd get the answer, I don't

39:43

know if another job is going to fix

39:45

my situation. So there was that real sense

39:47

of like that the job was almost also,

39:50

you know, not just removing the agency that

39:52

you have over the work that you do,

39:54

but also like. a sense of hope

39:56

in the future and you know what

39:58

you could go on to do. And I

40:00

think that's maybe also what kind of

40:02

contributes to sometimes this idea that like

40:05

you're stuck, you're just trying to keep

40:07

up and you're not moving. Yeah. I

40:09

do want to talk about the performance

40:11

monitoring because I mean listen, my instinct

40:13

is from just even just talking to

40:16

my own relatives in an anecdotal way

40:18

that there's something about this particular moment

40:20

which is uniquely disturbing about it and

40:22

it's the tech element of it. So

40:24

a survey by the GMB Union last

40:27

November reported that Amazon workers were stressed

40:29

and burnt out. There's been attempted suicides

40:31

recorded at multiple warehouses. The numbers

40:33

are genuinely quite shocking. Ambulances have

40:35

been called out over 1400 times

40:37

in the past five years. A

40:39

spokesperson for Amazon refuted the suggestion

40:41

that it's dangerous to work for

40:44

them. They said that safety is

40:46

always the absolute priority. In your

40:48

research, did you find that the

40:50

more tech there is involved, the less

40:52

hopeful the situation is, the less good

40:54

it is for well-being? It was interesting because

40:56

sometimes I would ask, what is the rate?

40:58

Like how many items are you expected to

41:00

pick per hour? And people really struggle to

41:02

give me a number. And this is because

41:05

I realized it was hidden within this algorithm

41:07

that actually they would only know if they

41:09

did well or not well at the end

41:11

of the week. Oh wow! So you just

41:13

live in fear the whole time. Yeah, and

41:16

I sometimes heard people say to me, oh,

41:18

some days I thought I did quite well

41:20

and then I would find out I was

41:22

wrong. And then other days, I thought, okay,

41:24

you know, there's been a couple of missed

41:26

items, I think I'm going to get

41:29

into trouble, and then they would be

41:31

considered the top pickers. And so there

41:33

was this real disconnect, even from what

41:35

was demanded of you and the same

41:37

from like, you know, when I would

41:39

ask about like relationships with managers and,

41:41

you know, you know, what the sort

41:43

of sort of, also don't really have

41:45

a real sense of what the goals

41:47

are. Right. And it was part of

41:49

what I was trying to look at

41:51

the film is actually how it's really

41:53

hard to like notice where power is

41:55

coming from because it seems like it

41:58

doesn't exist but it is coming. from

42:00

Sibwair. So the government is attempting to

42:02

make life in the gig economy a

42:04

little bit better. Labour's employment rights bill

42:06

is back in the commons this week.

42:09

It's full of ideas to improve working

42:11

conditions. It's been received well by trade

42:13

unions and introduces tougher restrictions on exploitative

42:15

zero-hour contracts. Also fire and rehire practices.

42:17

However, the bill doesn't go quite as

42:20

far as some people would have liked.

42:22

Trade unions and lawyers have argued for

42:24

a single workers status that would give

42:26

gig economy workers more protections, but from

42:28

your point of view. What do you

42:31

think you really need to see from

42:33

government? What were the things that stood

42:35

out to you as being sort of

42:37

low-hanging fruit to protect the well-being, mentally

42:39

and physically of these workers? Of course

42:42

protecting people from zero-hour contracts would be

42:44

great. Giving them rights straight from the

42:46

first day of employment. Fantastic. I know

42:48

that the bill was also going to

42:50

propose the right to disconnect and I

42:53

think now that's... that's kind of been

42:55

dropped so that's kind of a shame

42:57

because again it's just assuming that our

42:59

free time should still be consumed by

43:01

work and also protecting workers that are

43:04

trying to unionize in their workplaces you

43:06

know in a lot of warehouses it

43:08

is extremely hard to unionize and you

43:10

know we've seen a few efforts in

43:12

the UK that so far haven't been

43:15

successful and they haven't been successful because

43:17

it is so hard. to get enough

43:19

numbers and then companies, you know, hire

43:21

a bunch of workers right at the

43:23

time when vote is happening to dilute

43:26

the vote. So yeah, it is it

43:28

is incredibly hard. And I feel like

43:30

those jobs are also seemed to be

43:32

designed. in a way that prevents people

43:34

from forming connections with their colleagues. The

43:37

breaks aren't long enough for people to

43:39

get to know each other. This was

43:41

something I heard a law. The turnover

43:43

is so high that people don't stay

43:46

in the job for long enough to

43:48

like form meaningful bonds and like trying

43:50

to fight for better working conditions. So

43:52

yeah, it's good if at least some

43:54

of these rights can be fought. from

43:57

the government for sure. I definitely had

43:59

a thought of being like, also I

44:01

pay them more. I sometimes read so

44:03

many pieces about being like, how do

44:05

we solve the in-work poverty crisis? I

44:08

think, well I've got an idea. You

44:10

could pay a little more. Groundbreaking. Yeah.

44:12

And also tax companies, you know, there's

44:14

a lot of money out there that

44:16

is, that could be taxed. Having spent

44:19

a long time immersed in this world,

44:21

meeting real people and all their problems

44:23

that they face, but also their human

44:25

beauty, their camaraderie, do you have hope

44:27

that things could get better if we

44:30

just know about them a little bit

44:32

more? Yeah, I do have hope. I

44:34

think, you know, part of the ending

44:36

of the film was a little bit

44:38

about that. a few pickers I was

44:41

in contact with got in touch in

44:43

this week to tell me that their

44:45

warehouses experienced these outages and that during

44:47

that time managers weren't sure when the

44:49

system was going to go back up.

44:52

So they just played games got to

44:54

know each other even like getting they

44:56

got to know each other's names Which

44:58

seemed like something so simple and yet

45:00

really humanizing and so to me that

45:03

moment I think represented something about how

45:05

you know the possibilities are there and

45:07

for us to like build another world

45:09

and to You know build a life

45:11

outside work and how you know the

45:14

world is an end if we stop

45:16

it and so it's a glimpse into

45:18

what could be an how easy and

45:20

quickly we could get there if you

45:22

know if there was will. It's a

45:25

really really touching beautiful ending given that

45:27

it's human connection that is what will

45:29

improve the life of workers both on

45:31

an emotional level but also in terms

45:33

of organizing. Are you in a union?

45:36

Like how have your union experience has

45:38

been? I am, I am part of

45:40

an union and it is good to

45:42

know that, you know, collectively we're fighting

45:44

for better rights within the industry because

45:47

it's also a really tough industry to

45:49

be part of. You know, it can

45:51

be precarious. It's also an industry that

45:53

has a lot of issues in terms

45:55

of, you know, accessing it. Yeah, and

45:58

I believe that, you know, being part

46:00

of the union helps us. kind of

46:02

tackle those things. Just for the listener,

46:04

I'm in too. Nice. Oh yes, it's

46:06

not a competition, but I am in

46:09

too. But you're winning. Exactly, I win.

46:11

Laura Carrera, thank you so much for

46:13

joining us on Potsave the

46:15

UK. Thank you. On Falling is

46:17

Out in Cinemas now, go and check

46:19

it out. So Nish. I know we

46:21

spoke about the King's playlist at the

46:24

top of the show. I can't let

46:26

it go. We have got to talk

46:28

about this. For anyone that's missed it,

46:30

he's done a collaboration with Apple Music

46:32

to release The King's Music Room that

46:34

features music from the Commonwealth. So I

46:36

don't know what you think about this is

46:38

a PR win. Some of the songs are,

46:40

you know, genuinely quite interesting. He's got Grace

46:42

Jones on there. He's got Bob Marley on

46:45

there. He's got... Anish Kachanka on

46:47

there who is your friend, Noneish?

46:49

Yeah, it's not, you don't necessarily expect

46:51

to see the Kingmaker playlist and recognize

46:54

one of the names on there. Yeah,

46:56

that was, all of that is a

46:58

bit of a surprise. I mean, listen,

47:01

so the premise of this is that

47:03

it's a King's playlist to cover songs

47:05

from Britain and the Commonwealth. And I

47:08

guess in lieu of returning the stolen

47:10

jewels that were taken from a lot

47:12

of these countries, they're just going to

47:15

have to make do with King Charles

47:17

putting, I guess, songs by people from

47:19

their countries on a playlist. I

47:21

think that is right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess

47:23

this is like in lieu of giving

47:25

back the Kona Diamond to India,

47:28

shunkers on a playlist. Oh

47:30

my god. That's the compensation for it.

47:32

Every country, if you demand, like

47:34

we need to get some Greek

47:36

musicians on there to avoid giving

47:39

the back the path of the

47:41

marbles. We might as well extend

47:43

out this program of playlist-based diplomacy.

47:45

I feel like we could do a

47:48

better job. So what do you think?

47:50

What would be a good, what

47:52

would be some cool tunes for

47:54

the alternative King's playlist? Well, obviously,

47:56

God save the Queen by the sex

47:58

pistols, surely. is it? there. I mean

48:00

maybe like the the the National Anthem by

48:02

radiohead is an alternative National Anthem. Vossie

48:05

Bob by Stormsey just because it would

48:07

be funny for the king to include

48:09

in his playlist a song that's a

48:11

song that features the King to include

48:14

in his playlist a song that features

48:16

the line Fuck the government and Fuck

48:18

Boris. Surely you were going to put

48:20

forward some Bob Dylan I mean I'm

48:22

surprised at you. I'm always putting forward

48:24

Bob Dylan Coco I'm always putting putting

48:27

forward Bob Bob Dylan I'm going to

48:29

tell. the Bob Dylan Centre, which is

48:31

the largest collection of Bob Dylan's

48:33

papers in the entire world. Anything

48:35

like Times Zero Changing, Only A

48:37

Port in their Game, Slimes of Death

48:39

of Hattie Carroll, these would all be

48:41

interesting songs to a stick in there.

48:43

There's about 10 songs he wrote that

48:45

are, my girlfriend's gone on holiday to

48:47

Italy and I'm sad, and the rest

48:49

of them are all, rich people are

48:52

the worst, racism is awful. we've got

48:54

to get rid of all of

48:56

these useless people that are doing

48:58

all of these terrible things to

49:00

us. That's basically a curt summation

49:02

of most of Bob Dylan's recorded

49:04

output between 1962 and 1965. I

49:07

took it really seriously, this challenge,

49:09

and I've got some suggestions. You

49:11

can veto them if you want,

49:13

but don't, right? Sure. Okay, so,

49:16

uh, Kelly Clarkson's, because of you.

49:18

That song, incidentally, is about a

49:20

child who will not make the

49:22

same mistakes as their parents. So,

49:24

what do you think? He lived in

49:27

the Queen's Shadow, right? Yeah, that

49:29

would be good. That would be a

49:31

positive song for him to sing,

49:33

I think. Okay. Destiny's Childs, Bill's,

49:35

Bill's, Bill's, Bill's, because the chorus

49:38

is like, you know, can you

49:40

pay my telephone bills, which is

49:42

basically his message to the public.

49:44

I mean, we'd say something. From

49:46

Australia Midnight Oil beds are burning as

49:48

a song about the theft of indigenous

49:51

land. Yeah great but I'm very aboard with

49:53

that. So apparently we are actually going to

49:55

make this into a genuine playlist so if

49:57

you want to have a listen to the

49:59

songs... Genuine playlist. We're going to make

50:01

it into a genuine playlist. We're not

50:03

going to... Ride my pony, King Charles!

50:06

Yeah, but PodSafe UK is not going

50:08

to put out our bespoke genuine playlist.

50:10

Oh my god, that would be so

50:12

good if it was just... Ride in

50:14

my pony is excellent for a King

50:16

Charles playlist. He's a horsey guy, no? And

50:20

that's it. Thanks for listening to

50:22

PodSafe the UK and a reminder that

50:24

we want your questions for our upcoming

50:27

mailbag special. If you've got a burning

50:29

question, for Nish and me, drop us

50:31

a line at PSUK at ReduceListening .co .uk.

50:33

We'll be pulling these out in a

50:35

couple of weeks and check out our

50:37

show notes if you want to hear

50:39

our counter -programming for the King's playlist.

50:42

Don't forget to follow at PodSafe the

50:44

UK on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter and

50:46

we're on Blue Sky now too. Follow

50:48

us at PodSafeTheUK .Crooked.com and if you

50:50

want more of us make sure you're

50:52

subscribed to the YouTube channel. PodSafe the

50:54

UK is a reduced listening production for

50:56

Crooked Media. Thanks to senior producer James

50:59

Tyndale and producer May Robson. Our theme

51:01

music is by Vasilis Fotopoulis. The executive

51:03

producers are Will Yates, Tanya Hines,

51:05

Madeline Herringer and Katie Long with additional

51:07

support from R .E. Schwartz. And remember to

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