2:00

prepared. But in any case,

2:02

the later on in the interview, after

2:04

we got through his salmon chat, Andy

2:07

Peters and Kat Dealey brought his attention

2:09

to a petition calling for another election,

2:12

which at the time of recording is

2:14

at 2.73 million signatures. Here is what

2:16

Starba had to say about it. Look,

2:18

I remind myself that very many people

2:21

didn't vote Labour at the last election.

2:23

I don't know. I'm not surprised that

2:25

many of them won a

2:27

rerun. That isn't how our system works.

2:29

There will be plenty of people who didn't want

2:31

to sit in the first place. So what

2:35

I focus on is the decisions

2:37

that I have to make every day. OK,

2:39

so listen, the man

2:41

behind this petition, who's the landlord of

2:43

the Wagon and Horses pub in Oldbury,

2:46

is a chap called Michael Westwood. And

2:48

his big selling point was that he

2:50

was selling pints for £2 for pub

2:53

to the sort of like inflation busting

2:55

price. He also voted Tory at

2:57

the last election. He told Nick Ferrari on

2:59

LBC why he started the petition. Is

3:02

the system's broken? If Storm

3:05

City yesterday says this is not how our

3:07

country works, well, should

3:09

we sit up and think, well, why doesn't it work? Why

3:11

shouldn't we listen to the people? Maybe

3:13

if the system's broken, we should sit

3:15

and look at fixing it maybe rather than just

3:17

bearing heads in the sand and carrying on what's

3:20

always been done. Just for the listeners, Nick is

3:22

holding his head in his hand. I'm going to

3:24

give myself a hernia. Exasperated. Trying

3:26

to talk about this in a reasonable

3:28

way. Listen, the only reason that this

3:30

petition is getting so much attention is

3:33

because it's being highlighted by conservative commentators

3:35

and opposition politicians. And for some reason,

3:37

Michael Caine, who's also just sort

3:39

of waded in into this issue.

3:42

Michael Caine is on a singular mission to

3:44

ruin some of my favorite films. Conservative

3:47

Party chairman Nigel Hudson declared the honeymoon

3:49

well and truly over. Nigel Farage remarked

3:51

that he's never seen a petition move

3:53

this fast. But perhaps the member for

3:55

Clacton should be reminded in

3:57

2019 a petition calling for Brexit to be cancelled.

4:01

6.1 million signatures and did that amount to

4:03

anything, it did not. So a lot of

4:05

the people who've been most loudly trumpeting the

4:07

values of this petition

4:10

are also the people who were

4:13

very, very angry about the idea of

4:15

there being any kind of scrutiny of

4:17

Brexit. And what I would say to

4:19

these people is this is not like

4:21

Brexit. Brexit was a decision that was

4:23

made that will not be overturned for

4:26

generations, right? If you

4:28

are unhappy with this Labour government, there

4:30

is a constitutional mechanism that will allow

4:32

you to throw them out of office.

4:35

And it's called a general election. And

4:37

the reason that we have term limits

4:39

on parliaments that can't be

4:42

recalled unless there is will to do

4:44

so from within the House is because

4:46

if we constantly went to the public

4:48

on an annual basis, there would be

4:50

no time to legislate on things. There

4:52

would be no time for the business

4:54

of government to actually take place. I

4:57

don't want to sound anti-democratic here, but

4:59

this is a load of shit. Like

5:02

this whole thing is just a load

5:04

of shit because we

5:06

know millions of people didn't want Labour to be in

5:08

office. We also know millions of people that voted for

5:11

Labour that are not happy with the direction of travel

5:13

of the current government. It's just

5:15

bullshit that's being elevated by bad

5:17

actors within the political system and

5:19

also from outside the political system.

5:21

Because once again, the man who

5:23

looks like someone stretched skin over

5:25

a shipping container, Elon Musk, has

5:27

weighed in because he tweeted the

5:29

people of Britain that have had

5:31

enough of a tyrannical police day.

5:34

It is so concerning that an

5:37

incredibly wealthy man has essentially been

5:39

able to buy his way into

5:42

influence within the American government and

5:44

is consistently and unhelpfully weighing in

5:46

on British political issues. He

5:49

is a huge factor in

5:52

the circumstances that drove the race riots that

5:54

happened in this country in August. It

5:56

is something we really, really need to be

5:58

mindful of. to have bought

6:00

his way into the highest echelons of

6:03

American government. But he's still weighing in

6:05

on this issue. I can't believe we

6:07

have the misfortune of Elon Musk being

6:09

interested in us. Just simply by the

6:11

virtue that we speak the same language.

6:13

I have never wanted Britain to be

6:16

bilingual more. If you were Swiss,

6:18

you'd just be like, you know what, let's all just

6:20

talk in German for the next bit, just to this

6:22

guy who just can't participate. I

6:24

think it's also worth mentioning that the

6:27

petition is easily open to manipulation. All

6:29

you need to do is share an email address.

6:31

You then tick a box to say that you're

6:34

a UK citizen. You enter a UK postcode. I

6:36

mean, it's not really that hard to get a

6:38

UK postcode. Find it on the Google.

6:41

And of course, you can always misrepresent yourself as

6:43

a UK citizen. There has

6:45

actually been some posts on X circulating where

6:47

people have tried to crunch the data of

6:50

who's signing this. And it seems to be

6:52

coming from all around the world. So

6:55

not entirely sure this is

6:57

valid. It last week, we

6:59

had a fantastic chat with disinformation expert Jamie

7:01

Barlow, where we explored why Musk is so

7:03

interested in messing with the UK's political system,

7:05

and there was a special uncut version on

7:07

our YouTube page right now, which you should

7:09

check out if you haven't already. But ironically,

7:12

Jamie did make the point that perhaps in

7:14

the digital age, our way of doing democracy,

7:16

which is a vote on national government every

7:18

five years should change, but perhaps not in

7:21

this way. Democracy is a kind

7:23

of fragile balancing act between constantly

7:25

getting the people to have their

7:28

say and have the opinion of

7:30

the populace heard, but also actually

7:32

allowing government to not constantly be

7:34

in campaign and election mode and

7:37

actually get on with the business

7:39

governing. We need actual legislation that

7:41

can actually do things that improve

7:43

people's lives. Yeah, absolutely. And, you

7:46

know, maybe, maybe some people

7:48

very innocently believe, oh,

7:50

well, actually, how else will I show the

7:52

Labour government that I'm frustrated with them? We

7:54

can assure you they definitely know. The opinion

7:57

polls have shown that Stama's approval has. fallen

7:59

sharply, they're very well aware of it and

8:01

actually if we want a real test, it's

8:03

coming in May next year. We've got the

8:05

2025 council elections and I

8:08

think everyone's going to be looking closely at

8:10

those. The council elections, there's going to be

8:12

plenty of by-elections as the cycle of the

8:14

parliament goes on and eventually you will get

8:17

the opportunity to vote them out, which I

8:19

would encourage if you're unhappy, you

8:21

to do. Just don't

8:24

waste your time engaging with these

8:26

kind of pointless petitions demanding an

8:29

election that there is no constitutional

8:31

mandate for them to give

8:33

you. It doesn't make any sense

8:35

and it's just, as

8:38

usual, Nigel Farage has shit his pants and we're

8:40

all required to give him attention over it. Now

8:43

we have some very exciting news. We

8:46

have a special competition for our listeners

8:48

in London next Thursday. That's

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right. We've got 70 seats available

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be a reasonable or decent person you love

9:10

Kate Blanchard. Kate is one of the greatest

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actors of all time. To win up to

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two tickets, we're asking what your political highlight

9:16

was this year. Now this can be something

9:18

that was funny, sad, insightful or inspiring. We

9:21

will not be accepting responses that include the

9:23

obvious number one moment of the year, Rishi

9:25

Sunak announcing the election while standing in the

9:27

pouring rain. The best responses will win. This

9:29

is not a scientific subject. It is going

9:31

to be purely subjective and vibe based. Find

9:34

a link to the competition in our show

9:36

notes. Rumours, meanwhile, is released in UK and

9:38

Irish cinemas on the 6th of December. Hey

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Fidelity, how

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10:33

for details. Now

10:41

this Friday, Parliament has an immense question

10:43

of conscience as it votes on a

10:45

bill to introduce assisted dying. The private

10:48

member's bill introduced by Labor MP Kim

10:50

Leadbeet, who are entitled Terminally Ill Adults

10:52

End of Life Bill, would allow adults

10:54

who are terminally ill with six months

10:56

left to live to request and be

10:58

provided with assistance to end their own

11:00

life, subject to safeguards and protections. It

11:03

would apply in England and Wales. Scotland is looking

11:05

at its own legislation. So the government

11:07

is allowing MPs a free vote on

11:09

the bill and after weeks of campaigning,

11:12

Kim Leadbeet, she appears resolute.

11:14

She's been arguing for the benefits of the

11:16

bill. Here she is speaking to Sky News'

11:18

Trevor Phillips. We have

11:20

got people now who the law is

11:22

failing. We have got people taking their

11:24

own lives. We have got families losing

11:26

loved ones in very harrowing circumstances. We

11:28

have got people having very painful deaths.

11:30

I've just had another email coming through

11:32

and I've had hundreds, thousands probably now

11:34

actually of someone who's a

11:37

surgeon who has seen horrible deaths of

11:39

people who've got incurable and inoperable cancers.

11:42

So there is a very clear problem that

11:44

needs to be solved. And

11:46

actually by creating a legal framework,

11:48

we will improve the situation. But

11:51

there is strong opposition across parliament with the

11:53

two longest serving MPs, Labour's Diane Abbott

11:55

and Conservative Sir Edward Lee, arguing in

11:57

The Guardian that people might feel a duty.

12:00

to die. They also voiced concerns

12:02

for vulnerable minority groups and stated

12:04

that the bill has not received

12:06

enough parliamentary scrutiny. Speaking to the

12:08

BBC, Health Minister Wes Streeting has

12:10

also voiced his opposition. I've

12:12

made it clear that I'll be voting

12:14

against the assisted dying

12:17

bill this time. That's mainly

12:20

because I don't think that palliative care, end

12:22

of life care is where it needs to

12:24

be to give people a real choice. I'm

12:26

concerned about the risk of people being coerced

12:28

into taking their lives sooner than they would

12:30

have liked, or

12:32

feeling even without pressure

12:34

from their families, sometimes guilt tripped feeling

12:37

like a burden and I've had to

12:39

weigh up all of those issues. The

12:41

British Medical Association has an official position

12:43

of neutrality and according to a YouGov

12:45

poll, 73% of

12:47

people are in favour of the bill. Those

12:49

who voted Labour and Lib Dem in the

12:52

last election are more likely to be in

12:54

favour, but those who voted Conservative and Reform

12:56

are still overwhelmingly supportive by a majority of

12:58

two thirds. This is a

13:00

question of conscience and many MPs will

13:03

be voting primarily based on

13:05

their values. Joining us now on Pod

13:07

Save the UK is Rosenna Allan-Kahn, Labour

13:09

MP for Tooting, who's not only an

13:11

MP, but also a doctor. Welcome back

13:13

to PSU, Rosenna. Thank you. Thank you

13:15

for having me. Why do we keep

13:17

inviting you on for the least fun

13:19

conversations possible? I have a 100% track

13:21

record of being here talking about death.

13:23

So feel free to throw us

13:26

a bow in the next. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

13:28

We'll find some big knives. Yeah, the last

13:30

time Rosenna was on, it was to talk

13:32

about the Covid inquiry and the experience of

13:34

being on the wards during Covid and now

13:36

we just thought, you know what? It's a...

13:38

No, I'm happy to be here. All jokes aside and

13:41

I think it's a really important conversation to have. Of

13:44

course it is and you have such a,

13:46

I think, significant and unique perspective on this

13:48

issue and I'm sure your views are very

13:50

nuanced. We want to get into the detail

13:52

of all of those as, you know, both

13:55

a lawmaker and a qualified

13:57

medical professional. But have

13:59

you decided at this stage how you're going to

14:01

vote. Yeah I've

14:03

given it a significant amount

14:05

of thoughts. I've done that

14:07

both as a doctor, as

14:09

a legislator, but also as

14:11

a daughter of someone who

14:14

did have a terminal illness

14:16

and really understanding what

14:19

it's like to watch someone struggle and

14:21

to just wish it could be all

14:23

over for them. And

14:25

I think not only that,

14:28

I have also listened to my constituents.

14:30

I have really gone out

14:32

there to sort of garner the views

14:34

of what people are thinking because you

14:37

know as we say in South London, it's one

14:39

of them ones isn't it? It's just you can't,

14:42

I don't think anyone can be criticized for holding

14:45

the views that they have. It's

14:47

going to be deeply personal based on their

14:50

own life experiences, their own fears for the

14:52

future, for their family members. A lot of

14:54

people I know I've thought about what would

14:56

I do if I got the

14:59

same as what my dad had. All of

15:01

those things put

15:03

together really have helped informed my

15:06

view and with all

15:08

that being said I have decided that on Friday

15:10

I will vote against the

15:12

bill in its current form. And what was your journey

15:14

with that? I mean did at

15:17

one point were you thinking you might vote

15:19

for it and you've changed or was it

15:21

more that you held judgment until you were

15:23

confident? I think for me a key

15:27

thing was about the safeguards in place

15:30

because a lot of things we've

15:32

heard about coercion, about the sorts

15:34

of groups that would be more

15:37

impacted, so those from more difficult

15:40

socioeconomic backgrounds, the

15:42

BAME community. We

15:45

know that it is impossible to

15:48

really deem whether coercion has taken

15:50

place in any form and currently

15:52

the bill says that you would

15:54

need two doctors separated in time

15:57

to deem that no coercion has taken

15:59

place. we

18:01

have a meeting where we discuss the issues that we're going

18:03

to talk about on the show. I don't want to break

18:05

the illusion here, but we don't just hop on the mics

18:07

and vibe it out. And very often

18:09

we come to a conversation where

18:12

it's very clear what my perspective, or

18:14

Coco's perspective, or the producer's perspectives are

18:16

going to be on a subject. Sometimes

18:18

it's pretty obvious even going into the

18:20

conversation what that's going to be. And

18:22

with this particular issue, nobody is able

18:24

to come down declaratively on one side

18:26

or another. We spent over the course

18:29

of the meeting that we had on

18:31

Monday, my views kind of

18:33

went in and out. I still personally don't

18:35

know where I sit on

18:37

this specific issue. And it

18:39

is a really complicated thing and it is a really

18:41

difficult decision to come to. But let's try and drill

18:44

down into a couple of the key issues here. And

18:46

one of them is what you said about palliative care.

18:48

What are the specific issues at the moment

18:51

with palliative care? And what's a change that

18:53

you would like to see be

18:55

brought in that might make you more supportive

18:57

of this bill? If one of the key

18:59

issues is we're not providing adequate end-of-life care.

19:01

So that means we might not be giving

19:03

people a genuine choice here. I

19:06

think pain is

19:08

one thing that people fear a lot. Okay,

19:10

if we think about death, we

19:12

think about the pain that surrounds that. And

19:15

with palliative care, it's a specialty

19:17

of medicine, palliative care medicine, where

19:20

you have extremely skilled doctors and

19:22

nurses who are lifelines. I mean,

19:24

the palliative care nurse that we

19:27

had at the end of my dad's life, I said

19:29

she is a true example

19:31

that not all angels have wings. But

19:34

the journey we took to get on to even get

19:36

her was very

19:38

difficult. And I remember the nights

19:41

I spent my head in

19:43

my hands just crying, just

19:47

having no idea as a medical

19:49

professional how I can help

19:51

my dad with his pain relief. I just didn't have

19:53

a clue. And we also

19:55

know that those from more

19:58

socio-chronically deprived areas, those from

20:00

the BME community, they

20:03

typically have less access

20:05

to health services and

20:07

to palliative care than

20:09

other groups. And

20:11

so it's about widening

20:13

access, it's about improving resources so that

20:15

we have more staff, we have more

20:18

access to pain relief, to good quality

20:20

care because for example, if someone

20:22

on an end of life pathway

20:25

requires morphine and requires a

20:27

pump that can help with

20:29

all of that, someone has

20:31

to physically support them with

20:33

that. You need staff. I

20:36

think also for me though, is the two

20:38

doctors. My understanding of it is that

20:40

neither of them need to know the family well. How

20:43

do you interview

20:46

someone for the

20:49

decision making process and

20:51

know anything about their family background and

20:54

know about who might have said what,

20:56

who's got skin in the game. And

20:59

I think again, GPs

21:03

work so hard as do

21:05

palliative care teams, they're amazing.

21:08

But I'd probably feel more comfortable if

21:11

it was a medical professional that knew

21:13

the family, that knew the dynamics, that

21:15

was able to talk through it all

21:17

from a position of knowledge. I

21:19

try and look at this from a protecting

21:21

the most vulnerable perspective. So

21:24

for me, even if there was a

21:26

tiny proportion of people that would

21:29

be at risk, that's enough for me not

21:31

to feel comfortable enough to vote for something

21:33

to be legislation. Saying

21:35

that though, if you look at

21:37

the number of cases, so it's

21:39

currently not illegal to take your

21:41

own life, it is

21:44

illegal to enable someone

21:46

or encourage them to take their own life.

21:48

And that can be met with maximum

21:51

sentence of 14 years. The number

21:54

of cases that actually go

21:56

through to prosecution are pretty

21:59

much nil. kind

24:00

of locked in his body and he can't speak and

24:02

all that. I'm like, yeah, but you don't know the

24:04

joy that he gets that we see when

24:06

he sees my two little girls like

24:09

dancing and playing around. And you know,

24:11

when we had to take some difficult

24:13

decisions in hospital, then it felt like

24:16

we were really campaigning for his wellbeing.

24:18

I mean, I'm a doctor, my

24:20

brother's a professional, English is our

24:22

first language. It

24:25

still felt as though we were having to

24:27

go into battle on some

24:29

occasions. And that's with really amazing medical

24:32

professionals who listen to us because

24:35

a huge amount of judgment was placed on

24:37

the quality of his life. I'm like, that's,

24:39

you're placing that. And given

24:41

the fact that there was a huge chunk

24:43

of time that he wasn't in my life

24:46

and a huge complex background there,

24:48

we were actually relishing every day

24:51

we had. And

24:53

so for me, I've given a bit of a long

24:55

old answer there, but it's that

24:57

point about nobody else should

25:00

dictate what a valuable life is.

25:02

It's for the person living it

25:05

and their families who very often have

25:07

to go into bat. And

25:09

you see that a lot in,

25:11

you know, black and Asian and other minority

25:13

families, you have to fight in a much

25:15

more difficult way. Because I remember people saying,

25:18

but he doesn't, you know, they were like,

25:20

Mr. Khan. He was, he

25:22

used to be a lecturer in English. The

25:25

fact that he can't speak, that doesn't mean he can't

25:27

understand the language. He's looking at you in

25:29

a frustrated way because he's wondering why you're

25:31

shouting at him. But it's

25:34

that kind of thing. And I

25:36

understand why, you know, people who

25:38

campaign for the rights of minority

25:40

groups, those who campaign for those

25:42

with disabilities, they're right to because

25:44

very often it is the idea

25:48

in our minds that it's those

25:50

celebrities that have a huge platform,

25:52

that have all the kind

25:55

of campaigning materials and experience

25:57

and advocacy. Yes, that's important.

25:59

But the ones that we

26:01

also really need to think about and pay mind

26:04

to are the ones who are never going to

26:06

get on the telly and talk about their view.

26:08

Polling is sometimes a difficult thing to

26:10

kind of pin anything

26:12

on. But in this instance, there

26:14

is quite a large sort of

26:17

groundswell of support for some version

26:20

of this, only because I think

26:22

with dementia patients, and

26:25

like, listen, that's something that, you know,

26:27

my family is currently going through with

26:29

watching my grandmother suffer with dementia and

26:32

it is really difficult. But obviously, dementia

26:34

is not really something that's actually part

26:37

of this. No, it's not because she wouldn't

26:39

be deemed a capacity. And she

26:41

does not have the capacity to give any kind of

26:43

informed consent on this issue. But

26:45

there is a sort of groundswell

26:48

of support for some

26:50

version of this bill. It feels like

26:52

this is the start of an ongoing

26:55

conversation that I do think

26:58

will eventually lead to some

27:00

kind of formalised law

27:03

that allows people to choose the manner of their

27:05

death. Am I reading that right? I

27:08

definitely think it started a conversation and

27:10

an important one. And

27:12

if anything, it would really

27:14

have focused the minds on some of the safeguards

27:16

that we're talking about. And

27:19

I think that even

27:21

if it passes on Friday, there's still a long way to

27:23

go because it will have to go to the Lords. Yeah.

27:27

And be scrutinised by them. It might

27:29

be watered down. We just don't know

27:31

which way it's going to go. But

27:33

I think it's also made people

27:37

think about not

27:39

just sort of living and

27:41

dying, but about living

27:44

well when you're older. Or

27:47

if you're unwell. And

27:49

I think it's forced us to have

27:51

a conversation about what does death with

27:53

dignity look like? Because I don't think

27:55

we've spoken about that much before in

27:57

this country. Nobody wants to talk.

28:00

Yeah, because it's depressing, isn't it?

28:02

It's upsetting, but

28:04

it's the only, you know, death

28:07

and taxes are the only two in every two

28:09

minutes of life. Like, it is

28:11

something really important that we should talk about.

28:13

It is, and I think, again, I couldn't,

28:16

I mean, I have no idea how it's going

28:18

to go on Friday. And

28:21

I have

28:23

good colleagues, you know, who I call

28:25

friends, who have differences of opinion

28:28

on this, and that's fine. I

28:30

felt like at the beginning, when

28:33

the conversation started, it felt like

28:35

most voices were for the bill,

28:37

and now oppositions kind of come out. I

28:41

think there is just this problem,

28:43

which is that for people who are

28:45

at the end of their life, you

28:48

know, this legislation is a more dignified

28:50

way for them to die, right now, here today. And

28:53

anyone who knows someone in that condition, I think it

28:55

would be very hard for them to, yeah,

28:57

to move away from that. It must be really

28:59

difficult for somebody to hear in that position, that

29:02

if you sat here and saying, well, look, we

29:04

don't think this version is right, but another version

29:06

might be right down the road. It must be

29:08

really awful if you're in that position to go,

29:10

I don't have that kind of time, and I

29:13

need something now to afford me the

29:15

dignity of myself. But even

29:17

if it was passed, it takes

29:19

so long. The whole process is

29:21

so lengthy. So anybody,

29:23

you know. But psychologically, it would

29:25

help them, right? I mean, this

29:27

would give them agency. And

29:29

would it not help them even just have a mental

29:31

calm, which is when it gets too much, I'm

29:35

in control. Yeah, I think it really would. Yeah. So what does that

29:37

mean for the result, do you think? I

29:41

don't know. And I think the mechanics of a

29:43

Friday, you guys probably know, it's

29:48

very different to the rest of the week because

29:50

most people aren't traditionally in on a Friday. It's

29:52

normally constituency time. So those that are in on Friday, particularly

30:00

if they live in Scotland, MPs

30:02

in Scotland may

30:04

choose to vote on this. All the MPs

30:07

from around the country essentially would go home on

30:10

a Wednesday night or a Thursday. You're

30:14

either going to be there because you

30:16

feel very strongly about voting on it.

30:18

You can't not turn up to this.

30:20

People do that. No, that's outrageous. Or

30:22

because you live close, right? So, I

30:24

mean, it's not a given

30:26

that everyone's going to be there. We're not whipped to

30:28

be there. So, I genuinely

30:32

can't call it, sorry if I'm being naive about

30:34

it, but I can't believe anyone would not turn

30:36

up to this vote. It feels really monumental. I'd

30:38

be a bit angry if it was my MP.

30:41

I'd want to know. I mean, I feel like

30:43

people will be there, but it's not as though

30:45

we're mandated to be

30:48

there because three hours later there's another three-line

30:50

whipped vote. And if it

30:52

doesn't pass, as

30:55

I say, I really don't believe this is the end

30:57

of this conversation because I think the one

31:00

thing that everyone here is in agreement

31:02

with is that there are people in

31:04

society that deserve the right to a

31:06

dignified death. Absolutely that, all the way.

31:08

So, in terms of then looking forward

31:10

to this conversation, should the first thing

31:12

we start doing be looking at investing

31:15

in palliative care, changing the system

31:17

around that and getting our care

31:21

and health system into a position where

31:23

the next time a bill is tabled,

31:25

we can actually look people genuinely in

31:27

the eye in society and say this

31:30

is offering you a real choice regardless

31:32

of your material circumstances. Is that the

31:34

next phase if it's an o vote

31:36

on Friday? That's what I

31:38

think. I think this has caused us to

31:40

have really, really important

31:42

conversations about what I mentioned

31:45

earlier, that the dignity behind

31:47

dying and the dignity behind

31:49

end of life care.

31:52

And I

31:55

think it's a shame that we

31:57

can't go into Friday having that

31:59

optimized. I think. And

32:01

I take this stuff so seriously because

32:06

I think as an

32:08

elected representative, it's a huge burden to

32:10

have on your shoulders and you have

32:12

to really look at everything in detail

32:14

and also know that you can look

32:16

back at yourself in the mirror for

32:18

the votes that you've taken. And I've

32:20

tried to do that throughout my career

32:23

and this is no different. But

32:25

whatever happens on Friday, I will respect

32:27

the outcome and work

32:30

on looking at how

32:32

we strengthen safeguards

32:35

and how we make dignity

32:38

and death better. Rosetta

32:40

Rankin, thank you so much for joining us on the

32:42

podcast in UK. Thank you. And my

32:44

pledge to you is next time we will talk about something more fun.

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33:48

The UK's reeling after a weekend of

33:50

wild weather across the country. Storm Burt

33:52

caused devastating flooding in England and a

33:54

major incident in Wales. Hundreds of homes

33:57

were underwater. Winds of up to 82

33:59

miles per hour were recorded, and at

34:01

least five people have died. So it's

34:04

very scary stuff. So extreme weather events

34:06

like this are becoming more common and

34:08

more intense. Over a fifth of UK

34:11

homes have suffered storm damage, and one

34:13

in eight have had flooding in the

34:15

last five years, according to research done

34:18

by the insurance company Aviva. And with

34:20

COP 29 overshadowed by the re-election of

34:22

a climate change denier as US president,

34:25

Stormbert is a harsh reminder that the

34:27

climate crisis is literally knocking our door

34:29

off his hinges. Joining us now

34:32

to discuss how the UK government can

34:34

lead the fight against climate change as

34:36

Trump is looming large is Tessa Kahn,

34:38

a lawyer and director of Uplift, an

34:40

organization that supports a fair transition away

34:42

from oil and gas production in the

34:45

UK. Hi, Tessa. Hi, Coco.

34:47

Hi, Nis. From assisted

34:49

dying to the climate crisis, this

34:51

week's episode has got it all.

34:54

If by all you mean, reasons to

34:56

be incredibly depressed. But Tessa, you

34:58

are part of an organization that is taking

35:00

truly positive action. So back in 2023, Uplift,

35:03

along with Greenpeace, took the Conservative government

35:05

to court for signing off on a

35:08

new Jackdaw gas field and Rosebank oil

35:10

field off the coast of Scotland, claiming

35:12

the decision was unlawful. The new Labour

35:14

government has since withdrawn its support, but

35:17

oil companies Shell and Equinor have said

35:19

that they'll fight it in

35:21

court. Can you briefly explain what the

35:23

grounds are for this legal challenge? So

35:26

in short, the burning of

35:28

oil and gas and coal are

35:30

what are driving the climate crisis.

35:33

Burning fossil fuels create carbon emissions,

35:35

which are what changes our atmosphere

35:37

and ultimately is leading to

35:40

the world warming. So

35:42

approving the UK's largest undeveloped

35:44

oil field, which is what the Rosebank

35:46

oil field is in 2023, is

35:50

completely irrational and in our

35:52

view also unlawful. So as

35:55

you said, Uplift, together with

35:57

Greenpeace, decided to legally change

35:59

the world. challenged the last

36:01

UK government's decision to approve

36:03

Rosebank. And we're doing that

36:05

on a couple of different grounds. The

36:08

first is that, astonishingly, when

36:10

the government approved Rosebank, it

36:13

has to basically do an

36:15

assessment of the environmental impact

36:17

that a new oil and gas

36:19

project will have. And when they

36:22

conducted that environmental assessment, they

36:24

didn't take into account the

36:26

climate harm caused by burning

36:28

the oil in Rosebank's reserves,

36:30

which is the single biggest

36:32

environmental impact that that field

36:34

will have. So we

36:37

think that that's crazy. Luckily,

36:39

the UK Supreme Court, just

36:42

this summer, agreed with us in a

36:44

different case that it is crazy for

36:46

government decision makers to approve new oil

36:48

and gas projects without looking at the

36:50

thing that is actually the most responsible

36:52

for the climate harm within those projects,

36:54

which is burning their oil and gas.

36:58

So that's an argument we're making in court. This

37:00

new UK government that we elected in

37:02

July actually agrees with us that

37:05

it was unlawful to approve the

37:07

field without taking into account that

37:10

climate impact. So that's great news,

37:12

but we're still fighting the oil

37:14

and gas companies effectively in court

37:16

on that. We're

37:18

also making a separate argument, which is

37:20

that when the oil and gas regulator

37:23

approved Rosebank, which it also had

37:25

to do, it didn't actually

37:28

publish any of its reasons for why

37:30

they thought it should be approved. And

37:32

we think that really as a matter

37:34

of due process in a democracy, we

37:37

should get to see the reasons for

37:39

why a massively controversial new oil field

37:41

is approved. The climate impact

37:43

of Rosebank is disastrous.

37:46

But the thing about Rosebank is that it's also

37:48

not going to do anything at

37:50

all for the UK's energy securities or

37:52

for our energy bills, which are, I

37:54

would say, the arguments that we generally

37:56

hear about why we need to keep

37:58

opening up new oil and gas. So,

38:00

Rose Banks oil, like 80% of

38:03

the oil that we produce in the UK, ends

38:05

up being exported. So it doesn't

38:07

go automatically into British cars or British

38:09

homes. If we buy it back, we

38:11

buy it back at the same international

38:13

prices that anyone else in the world

38:15

would be buying it from. And

38:18

the companies themselves acknowledge that on that

38:20

basis, it's not bringing down our energy

38:22

bills. It's not any cheaper just because

38:24

we make it domestically. The

38:27

people who are profiting from the development

38:29

of that field are the very wealthy

38:31

oil and gas companies who are trying

38:33

to develop it, which includes

38:35

a Norwegian oil company called Equinor,

38:37

which is partly owned

38:40

by the Norwegian government. So effectively,

38:42

we are subsidising Norwegian pensioners at

38:44

the same time as British pensioners

38:47

are going cold this winter. It's

38:50

like legalized mugging. It's

38:53

absolute nonsense. The one argument that is

38:55

constantly put forward around any of these

38:57

conversations around the climate crisis is

39:00

that the oil and gas companies have

39:02

been saying that revoking the licence would cost thousands of

39:04

jobs. And the North of Scotland

39:06

is very dependent on oil and gas in terms

39:08

of as an employer. What do

39:10

you say to people who say that

39:12

they're worried about job security in these

39:14

areas? So, I mean, we take the

39:16

question of jobs absolutely seriously. I mean,

39:18

people's livelihoods are critical. But

39:20

I think the reality that most

39:23

people don't grasp is that jobs

39:25

supported by the UK's oil and

39:27

gas sector have actually halved in

39:30

the last decade. And that's despite

39:32

the Conservative government handing out hundreds

39:34

of new oil and gas licences.

39:37

And that's because North Sea oil

39:39

and gas is an irrevocable geological

39:41

decline. Oil and gas production

39:44

in the UK peaked decades ago. So

39:46

regardless of how many of these new

39:48

fields or new licences you approve or

39:50

you hand out, you still

39:53

need to come up with a

39:55

proper long-term solution for job security

39:57

and livelihoods in those communities. Uno

40:00

can create long-term sustainable jobs because

40:02

we have some of the best

40:04

resources in the world is renewable

40:07

energy. I mean, the UK

40:09

has the second biggest offshore

40:11

wind market in the world.

40:13

We have the best renewable

40:15

energy resources in Europe. If

40:18

we get the right sets of policies

40:20

to support the development of those resources

40:22

and make sure that investment stays at

40:24

home, jobs stay in our communities, then

40:26

we can have a genuinely thriving world-leading

40:28

energy industry for decades to come. And

40:30

there is no world in which oil

40:33

and gas is going to provide that.

40:35

I mean, I have to say, hearing you

40:37

talk about the UK on the global climate stage,

40:40

I had a little feeling of, oh, a

40:42

bit of patriotic pride there, not something I

40:44

have often. Genuinely,

40:47

I often wonder where does the

40:49

UK compare to other countries when it comes

40:51

to climate action? I know Keir

40:53

Starmer, he was at COP recently, and he

40:55

pledged to restore the UK's role as a

40:58

climate leader. Are we actually a climate leader?

41:00

Yeah. So I guess the first thing to

41:02

remember is that leadership is relative, right? So

41:08

with that caveat, I guess, obviously

41:10

we've seen a pretty significant shift

41:13

in, I would say, rhetoric and

41:15

action with the new government that

41:17

we've just elected, which has been

41:20

elected with the understanding that

41:22

it wants to make the UK a clean

41:24

energy superpower. There's a lot

41:26

of polling to show that across the

41:28

UK, people want the government to take

41:30

climate change more seriously. They want us

41:33

to go faster, not slower. It's also

41:35

true that the UK has, over the

41:37

last decade or so, it's done

41:40

a lot to address greenhouse gas emissions.

41:42

You know, we've reduced greenhouse gas emissions

41:44

by about 50% in

41:46

terms of what the UK emits compared

41:48

to 1990 levels. The

41:51

Prime Minister's just set another very ambitious

41:53

target, which is about 80% reduction in

41:56

greenhouse gas emission levels by 2035. That's

42:00

a good thing. They've also signaled that

42:02

they won't be approving new

42:04

oil and gas exploration licenses in

42:06

the North Sea. That's a good

42:08

thing. And also, arguably a world

42:11

leading level of ambition. There are

42:13

definitely, I would say promising

42:15

signs that as they've claimed that

42:17

the UK is kind of back

42:19

in terms of climate leadership. And

42:21

frankly, we desperately need it at

42:23

the moment. I think

42:25

a lot of the news from COP

42:27

was overshadowed by Trump's election. He's

42:30

quite clear about his aims. He wants

42:32

to increase fossil fuel production. He's just

42:34

named Chris Wright, an oil

42:36

and gas industry CEO to be his

42:38

next energy secretary. What does this mean

42:40

for the UK's bid? To

42:42

be a climate leader. We've got such

42:44

a weird relationship with the US anyway.

42:47

And I think, am

42:49

I right in thinking it's not

42:51

unreasonable to believe that the president

42:54

of America taking this position is

42:56

a significant historic knockback? Yeah,

42:59

it's definitely a bad thing. Like

43:01

I would struggle to put a positive

43:03

spin on Trump's election, I

43:05

think. I

43:07

read somewhere, Tessa, and please correct me

43:10

if I'm wrong. And I really want

43:12

you desperately to correct me here because

43:14

I really need psychologically to be wrong

43:16

about this. But I read that there

43:19

are some climate scientists that argue that if Trump carries

43:21

out all of the policies he says he's gonna carry

43:23

out on the climate crisis, it

43:25

will negate the entire rest of the

43:27

world's efforts on climate change in the

43:29

next four years. Yeah, so

43:32

I mean, I haven't read that.

43:34

And that sounds hyperbolic to me,

43:36

which is good. Thank God. And

43:38

I think there are a few

43:40

different reasons for that. First of all, I

43:42

mean, the US isn't the entirety of the

43:44

world's greenhouse gas emissions. It's about a fifth,

43:46

I think, about 20%. But

43:50

I mean, I think there are a couple

43:52

of other factors at play. The first is

43:54

that regardless of who is in power in

43:56

the US for the next four years, the...

44:00

economic momentum behind the

44:02

energy transition is real.

44:05

And that is going to

44:07

continue regardless of, as I

44:09

said, who is present at

44:11

any given moment. So

44:13

the cost, for example, of solar

44:16

panels has dropped by 80% in

44:18

the last decade. Wind

44:20

and batteries, which are

44:22

crucial for energy storage,

44:24

are also dropping in

44:27

price and growing exponentially

44:29

in deployment. And those

44:31

economic trends are here

44:33

to stay. So, you know, there are aspects

44:36

of this clean energy transition that have

44:38

a huge amount of momentum behind that.

44:40

I think the other thing that we

44:42

don't know about Trump's presidency is

44:45

how he's gonna respond to

44:47

the fact that, yeah, Biden in

44:50

the last couple of years passed

44:52

a really significant package of climate

44:54

or clean energy legislation worth

44:57

hundreds of billions of dollars that

44:59

actually invested in manufacturing and created

45:01

jobs and wealth in Republican constituencies.

45:04

And that was sort of a

45:06

deliberate move to protect in some

45:09

ways the energy transition from the

45:12

whims and vicissitudes of politics. And

45:14

so, you know, query, I guess,

45:16

how hard Trump is gonna go

45:18

in rolling back on benefits

45:21

that actually his supporters are

45:23

currently taking advantage of. But,

45:26

you know, it's ultimately true that this

45:29

definitely vacates the stage in terms of

45:31

global leadership for the UK to step

45:33

up. We're number one, hypothetically,

45:36

if we take advantage of the current situation.

45:38

We could be number one. We could be

45:41

number one. I'll take it. I

45:43

mean, I'll take it. You can't have a conversation

45:45

about climate and have an uplifting point

45:48

these days, and you just gave me one.

45:50

So now I have a reason to be

45:52

a bit more happy with my strange existence

45:54

on this weird planet. So

45:57

just coming back to Rosebank, the

45:59

legal challenge... was given the go ahead just

46:01

a few weeks ago. What's the next steps? Are

46:03

you feeling confident? I mean, hearing you talk there,

46:06

it feels like the winds of change are here

46:08

in the UK. I mean, yeah,

46:10

how are you feeling about the case? I always

46:12

feel good about the cases I'm involved in,

46:14

but I've been proven

46:16

wrong in the past. On this occasion

46:18

though, I genuinely think, and I think

46:20

it's because, as I said, the

46:23

government actually agrees with us that

46:25

the decision was unlawfully made. So

46:27

we've just had a hearing in

46:29

a court in Edinburgh. That

46:31

hearing's just concluded. We're now

46:34

waiting for a decision from the court, which

46:36

we hope will be that the

46:38

decision was unlawful and therefore the

46:40

oil field won't go ahead. But

46:43

inevitably, the oil and

46:45

gas companies who have just gotten

46:47

used to getting their way in

46:50

terms of pushing these fields through, we think

46:52

they're gonna still try to move

46:54

ahead with Rosebank, even if the court

46:56

says it was an unlawful decision. And

46:58

that's why we still think

47:01

there's a huge role for all of us

47:03

to play, as in everyone in the public,

47:05

to make it clear that we don't want

47:07

this dirty oil field. It's a terrible deal

47:09

for the British people. All it's doing is

47:12

making these unbelievably wealthy oil and gas companies

47:14

richer and we demand better. So there's still,

47:16

I think, a lot of work to do

47:18

to convey that clearly. I feel weirdly optimistic.

47:21

Yeah, I know. It's not often we have

47:23

a climate conversation that ends

47:25

with me thinking, oh, the world isn't gonna fucking

47:27

blow up. And

47:29

do it. How important

47:32

is it to push back

47:34

against hopelessness? Because especially in the wake

47:36

of the Trump election and the threat

47:38

that he constitutes to our way of

47:41

life, especially

47:44

on the subject of climate,

47:47

how important is it to push back

47:50

against sort of despair on this issue?

47:53

Look, I think it's completely human

47:55

to be pretty down

47:57

about recent developments, including- but

47:59

not limited to Trump being

48:02

elected. But I

48:04

think that we still have a

48:06

huge amount of agency in deciding

48:08

what our future looks like. And

48:11

there is huge amounts to play

48:13

for. And especially in the UK,

48:15

I will say that the oil

48:17

and gas industry is in a

48:19

more vulnerable position. You know, we

48:21

have changed the conversation around oil

48:23

and gas in this country in

48:25

a way that has never happened

48:27

before. And that's the reason

48:29

that this government has decided not to

48:31

give out new exploration licenses for oil

48:33

and gas. You know, it's despite the

48:35

massive PR machine that that industry has,

48:37

people are understanding that it is a

48:39

profiteering industry that is only interested in

48:41

its bottom line and it's not interested

48:43

in doing the right thing by us.

48:46

And we are in a really crucial moment

48:48

for, I think, winning this fight. And we

48:50

all have a role to play in it.

48:53

So, you know, I really think that, as

48:55

I said, we've got a tremendous amount of agency

48:57

in deciding what our future looks like. Tesser Khan,

49:00

thank you so much for joining us on Pod

49:02

Save the UK. Thank you so much

49:04

for having me. So I

49:06

think we can agree that it was great

49:08

to hear some positivity when we're discussing the

49:10

climate crisis. If you want another injection of

49:12

hope, by the way, check out this week's

49:15

Pod Save the World, where Tommy and Ben

49:17

sat down with Malala Yousafai, the global icon

49:19

for girls' education. She famously survived a Taliban

49:21

attack in 2012. In

49:23

this rare interview, Malala reflects on what

49:26

happened when the Taliban retook Afghanistan in

49:28

2021. She shares her perspective on the

49:30

fall of Kabul and the women's protest

49:33

movement that followed. Plus, she discusses the

49:35

documentary she executive produced about Afghan women

49:37

and what keeps her fighting for women

49:40

and girls' rights. Listen now on the

49:42

Pod Save the World feed or watch

49:44

the full interview on YouTube. And

49:49

that's it. Thanks for listening to Pod Save

49:51

the UK and we want to hear your

49:53

thoughts. Email us at psuk at producelistening.co.uk Don't

49:56

forget to follow at Pod Save the UK on

49:59

Instagram, TikTok and Twitter. Twitter and if you want

50:01

more of us, make sure you subscribe to our

50:03

YouTube channel. PodSafe the UK is

50:05

a reduced listening production for Crooked Media. Thanks

50:07

to Senior Producer James Tindale, Assistant

50:10

Producer May Robson and our multi-track

50:12

fellow Derek Armour. Our theme

50:14

music is by Vasilis Photopoulos. Thanks

50:16

to our engineers Evie Shelburne and James

50:18

Reynolds, the head of production is Dan

50:20

Jackson. The executive producers are Anishka Sharma,

50:23

Louise Cotton and Madeline Herringer with additional

50:25

support from Ari Schwartz. And remember

50:27

to hit subscribe for new shows on

50:29

Thursdays on Amazon, Spotify or Apple or

50:31

wherever you get your podcasts. Hmm,

50:57

that's music to my ears. I

50:59

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