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The Pub News Weekly Review . With

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Buzzsprout Podcast hosting

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made easy .

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I'm joined today by Chloe Straw . Chloe

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is the CEO of Audio

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UK . Chloe hello , how are you ?

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Hi , sam , I'm good . Thanks for having me .

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It's our pleasure . Now look Audio UK

0:18

. Let's crack through that first . What is

0:20

Audio UK ?

0:22

So we've recently slightly updated

0:24

our kind of mission statement and that's

0:26

very much because the way that the audio

0:28

industry has changed so

0:30

rapidly over the last kind of 10 years

0:33

. So we are an industry body and

0:35

we're dedicated to advancing the

0:37

audio sector . So that includes podcasts

0:39

, radio , audio books , and that's by

0:41

fostering innovation , innovation supporting creators

0:44

and businesses and driving sustainable

0:46

growth . So we've got about

0:49

130 members , we're member funded

0:51

and I think we have about 50 in london

0:53

, 50 out of london , across the uk

0:55

, and they include businesses

0:57

like sony , goldhanger , audio

0:59

always , persephonica , novel

1:02

, so a huge range of

1:04

amazing different businesses .

1:06

And when you say all these people are

1:08

members , what is it that you

1:10

are then giving them Guidance

1:13

? Are you giving them regulation ? What is

1:15

it that Audio UK provides

1:17

then ?

1:18

So we do a huge amount of different work

1:20

and it represents the huge

1:23

range of different members that we have . So

1:25

within those lists we might

1:27

have one person who is

1:30

an audiobook producer , and they churn out

1:32

audiobooks every single week in their home studio

1:34

. And then obviously you have Goalhanger

1:36

, who are absolutely massive and have five

1:39

out of the top 10 Apple podcasts

1:41

in the charts every week . So in

1:43

the way that our members have a lot of different needs

1:45

, we provide a lot of different services

1:47

. So one of the biggest things that we

1:49

concentrate on is growing

1:52

the industry and growing

1:54

, I guess , the amount of money coming into the industry

1:56

for our members . Our members are largely

1:58

independent , and by that I mean we

2:00

don't have the BBC as a member , we don't have Global

2:03

as a member , but we do have some of

2:05

the kind of biggest independent podcast

2:07

companies , and so I guess what we do I

2:09

split into almost two sides

2:11

. There's the tangible benefits and

2:13

the less tangible benefits . In

2:15

terms of industry growth , one of our main things

2:18

this year is we're doing a huge amount of

2:20

policy work , which doesn't sound that

2:22

exciting but is really really important , of

2:25

policy work which doesn't sound that exciting but

2:27

is really really important and

2:31

the main crux of that without turning this into a policy podcast is around

2:33

getting audio podcasting recognised as a creative industry . So there's

2:35

something at government level called the

2:37

Creative Industries Council . It

2:39

has a huge amount of input into where

2:41

the money goes for the creative industries , representation

2:44

abroad and all different levels

2:46

of development around the creative industries , and

2:49

as it stands there is no

2:52

seat for audio in any

2:54

form on the Creative Industries Council , which

2:56

seems completely mad

2:58

to me . And so one of the

3:00

big things that I've been working on with Hannah

3:02

, who's our policy and regulation lead , is

3:05

lobbying around a seat on the Creative

3:07

Industries Council and from that

3:09

flows things like creative

3:11

audio , tax relief for podcasting

3:14

and audiobooks , more IP

3:16

funding for development and IP

3:18

export overseas . So I guess if

3:20

you're one of our bigger members then

3:22

you are able to directly feed into those

3:24

conversations . I think one of the things

3:26

I love about Audio UK is I keep

3:28

in fairly constant contact

3:31

with a lot of the founders and CEOs

3:33

and MDs of our companies . So we're

3:35

always very open to talking to

3:37

our members about various issues and

3:39

that gives them a really kind of direct

3:41

avenue into those massive industry

3:44

decisions . So it's very much about growing the industry

3:46

Tangible benefits . We provide

3:48

a lot of business support . So we've just

3:50

partnered with a new insurance

3:53

provider on behalf of our members called

3:55

Riskbox , which is great . We have a long

3:57

running partnership with Minton Co , who

3:59

provide as soon as you join up at any

4:01

business level , you get access to 30

4:04

free legal contract templates

4:06

. We have a partnership

4:08

with HR companies all of those things

4:10

that you might be really focused as a business

4:13

on , like what's the creative , what's an

4:15

idea , but all the kind of infrastructure

4:17

of running a business . We also offer

4:19

that to all of our members . So , and

4:22

many other things training , audio

4:24

production , awards , which we're going to call the APAs

4:27

from now on and , yeah , so

4:29

many different things .

4:31

Okay , so a couple of questions

4:33

there . One is what's the website ? So

4:35

let's get that out of the way . Where would they go to find out

4:37

more ?

4:38

AudioUKorguk . Our

4:40

LinkedIn's a bit more exciting , but if you want to find

4:42

out about joining us , then go to the website

4:45

.

4:45

And the other one is I don't know if you saw , but

4:47

in this week's news , india has

4:49

announced a $1

4:52

billion investment into its local creator

4:54

economy . So it sounds very

4:56

similar to what you were just describing

4:58

with what Audio UK would

5:00

want from the UK government . So in

5:03

Mumbai , neil Mohan

5:05

, the CEO of YouTube , basically spoke

5:08

, and then the Indian government minister

5:10

has announced that they're putting in $1

5:13

billion not rupees , thankfully

5:15

and the goal is to enable creators

5:17

to scale their productions , upgrade tech and tap

5:19

into the global markets . That sounds exactly what

5:22

you were just describing for what Audio

5:24

UK wants the UK government to do .

5:26

Yeah , I mean , that's very much what we need

5:29

to happen , I think , if I have a fascinating

5:32

spreadsheet which looks at kind of

5:34

the different benefits that other creative

5:36

industries get . So film , tv , gaming

5:38

, animation , theatre they

5:40

get a huge amount of government support

5:42

, where historically , we got a bit

5:44

of money into training , but that stopped in 2018

5:47

. 2018 . We're actually partnering with the BBC

5:49

on training . We're relaunching AudioTrain

5:51

, which will be great , but I feel like the government

5:53

should be putting money into training for audio

5:55

as well . Absolutely , we put in a proposal

5:58

for the spring spending

6:00

review around a fund

6:02

for IP development and export

6:05

. So , obviously , as we all know

6:07

, one of the things that we want to do is

6:09

make sure that UK podcasting is

6:11

successful internationally and we're able

6:13

to tap into those international markets as

6:15

well , and that's another of our key focuses

6:18

is how do we bring in more

6:20

international investment ? The kind

6:22

of IP fund focuses on that

6:24

at a local level as well as at a global level

6:27

. And also , the audio tax

6:29

relief is very much around . So many

6:31

of our member companies use UK

6:34

teams to make podcasts for

6:36

the US and if we had a tax relief

6:38

, you know it would just supercharge that

6:40

. So , yeah , we just want to grow the industry

6:42

, bring in more money . We'd love a billion dollars

6:45

for the podcast .

6:46

Wouldn't we just yes .

6:48

Maybe a bit less than that at the moment . But

6:50

you know anything , I'd take anything right now

6:53

, and then we'll work up to a billion .

6:54

We'll see if Rachel's got a few shekel behind her

6:56

couch . You know she might find some . Now

6:58

, this event that you've got coming up

7:00

it's on the 23rd of April . Tell me

7:02

more about it .

7:04

So that's another real focus for us

7:06

this year actually . So , aside from policy

7:08

events so on , we

7:11

obviously work with a lot

7:13

of the biggest and finest production

7:15

businesses , production houses and networks

7:18

in the UK . As I've mentioned , that's

7:20

one of the things I absolutely love about Audio

7:22

UK . It's the ability to bring

7:25

all these incredible businesses together

7:27

, and one thing that we do is we have a podcast

7:29

leaders lunch . So it's for Audio UK

7:32

member companies . They don't necessarily

7:34

have to be the biggest . Obviously the biggest come along , but

7:36

it's the CEOs and the MDs

7:39

and the co-founders of those

7:41

businesses who come along , and

7:43

something that I love about the industry

7:45

is that they're obviously all competitors

7:47

, but they're also very happy to

7:49

share insights , which I love

7:52

because I love partnerships . I think good things

7:54

happen out of partnerships , and so we run

7:56

these leaders lunches every quarter or

7:58

so . We obviously put on lunch

8:00

, get everyone who we can together to come along

8:02

and discuss opportunities and

8:05

challenges within the industry . And

8:07

one of the biggest challenges

8:09

and opportunities that came up was

8:11

around advertising in podcasting

8:14

in the UK , and I mean you

8:16

know this as well , if not better

8:18

, than I do . You know podcasting

8:21

in the UK , in terms of ad spend , still

8:23

has a long way to go in terms

8:25

of being recognised as a really

8:27

good place to put your

8:29

money . As

8:33

a really good place to put your money . We all know that it's a great place . We

8:35

know that the statistics are good . We know that audience engagement is

8:37

good . We know that the kind of return on investment is good

8:39

. The kind of structure and

8:41

convincing the ad agencies

8:43

and the media buyers of that still

8:46

needs a lot more work , and

8:48

I spend a lot of time with statistics

8:50

because I love data and so we know

8:52

the obvious comparison is the US and the

8:54

UK , both primarily English

8:57

speaking countries , and I think

8:59

my most recent calculation is if you

9:01

look at the podcast ad spend per person in the UK

9:03

, it's 1.2 pounds per

9:05

person and if you look at it in the US

9:07

, it's $7 per person . So it's not

9:10

just that the US is bigger because population

9:12

size it's bigger per person , and

9:14

so one of the priorities that came out of

9:17

those lunches was around

9:19

how do we convince

9:21

advertisers that

9:23

podcasting is a good place to put

9:25

their money ? We know it , but there's

9:27

obviously a bit of a disconnect there . Know

9:31

it , but there's obviously a bit of a disconnect there , and obviously there's

9:33

great work being done already by ACAST , by Megaphone Goalhanger

9:35

, do their own outreach around that . A lot of the businesses

9:38

that we work with do outreach around

9:40

that , but I think it's really

9:42

powerful to bring all of these

9:44

businesses together and get the brands

9:46

and advertisers together to hear from

9:48

such an incredible bunch of businesses

9:50

At the same time as we'd come

9:52

up with that . I know Meera

9:55

Kumar quite well , who's obviously a fantastic

9:57

producer , and she brought

9:59

a similar idea to me , and

10:02

the beauty of Meera is , if it had been

10:04

left to me because I have 40,000

10:06

things to do at any one point it probably would

10:08

have stayed . Oh , that's a good idea , shouldn't we

10:10

do that Whilst I answer all

10:12

my emails , and she came

10:15

to me with the idea and has been really instrumental

10:17

in just driving it forward

10:19

, which is fantastic . We also

10:21

have Martin who runs Podmasters helping

10:23

out and a few other people . So

10:26

, yeah , I think the main point of it is around

10:28

demystifying advertising

10:31

, and I think the reason we wanted to is around demystifying

10:33

advertising . And I think the reason we wanted to do it is because in advertising there's

10:35

so many different stakeholders

10:37

, isn't there ? There's kind of the platforms , the

10:40

production houses , the agencies

10:42

, the media buyers so many different things

10:44

and

10:51

I think again , one of the strengths of Audio UK and one of the things that I love

10:54

about it is the ability to hear straight from the horse's mouth . So we are bringing these

10:56

brands and advertisers together with the production houses

10:58

and the networks who sell

11:00

their content , make their content , distribute

11:02

their content , and we want to talk

11:04

to them about why it's so

11:06

brilliant and just do a really good

11:08

job of showing them why

11:11

podcasting should be on their

11:13

buying plan for the next year . I

11:15

think it's a difficult task

11:18

. We are different from the US in

11:20

how we're set up . I was reading a really

11:22

interesting report recently and one of the

11:24

points around it is that podcasting

11:26

still sits under audio

11:29

in terms of ad buying , and

11:31

I think , if you look at America , podcasting

11:33

is sort of its own branch of buying

11:36

, and I think that's something that's

11:38

really interesting for us to look

11:40

at . For me , this is

11:42

a really good first step

11:45

in tackling and

11:47

you know , it's not just us doing it , a lot

11:49

of people are doing it , and it's not just us doing

11:51

it , a lot of people are doing it but

11:54

if we all tackle the need for more money to come into podcast advertising and sponsorships

11:56

. I think it can only be a good

11:59

thing .

12:00

I think , given what you said , I

12:02

heartily agree that the

12:04

differences between the US and UK markets

12:06

. There's a couple of things in my

12:08

head . One is I think Rocky Thomas

12:10

from Soundstack had said it when she was presenting

12:12

over in Venice recently we don't make

12:15

podcasting buying

12:17

for media companies easy . We

12:19

don't talk their language , so somehow

12:21

we've got to translate Swahili into their

12:23

language and they've got to translate whatever they do into

12:25

ours . So there's an education element , and so

12:28

I think your event will be good as a first step

12:30

in that . I also think and I don't say

12:32

it lightly I think there is a laziness

12:34

within the industry , not so much the podcasting , but I

12:36

think in the media industry buying . It's

12:38

like let's not rock the boat , let's do what we

12:40

do . It's easy . So

12:43

there's an element of that . And then I think

12:45

there is also one thing I think the podcasting

12:47

industry can do , which is to provide

12:49

better metrics back to

12:52

the advertisers . I think TV and radio don't

12:54

do a good job . Things like Raja , I think

12:56

, are weird and I think some of the measurement

12:58

systems . It's like one person in Scarborough

13:01

heard your station , so a million people were listening to

13:03

you today . It's like that's not true

13:05

. You can't just extrapolate right , but

13:07

that's what the industry does and everyone takes that number

13:10

as a given . But I think within podcasting

13:12

we can do a better job and

13:15

I'm currently working with a bunch of geeks on

13:17

something called performance data , which

13:19

is first party data back Now

13:21

companies like YouTube , spotify , apple have

13:23

that first party data . How long did Chloe listen

13:26

to this podcast ? Did she hear the ad

13:28

? When did she drop off ? All those things

13:31

can be given back to advertisers . That radio

13:33

and TV cannot do . And

13:35

I think that's the sort of messaging

13:38

I would hope is getting back to those

13:40

media buyers . Actually , the

13:42

old adage of I spend my marketing , I just

13:44

don't know which half is effective and which is not

13:46

. I think with podcasting I think we can

13:48

address that , but that was the promise of digital

13:51

online anyway . Now this event

13:53

if anyone wants to come along , I'm assuming

13:55

it's invite only , so how would

13:57

they come along ?

13:59

Yeah , so we have made

14:01

it just for brands and advertisers

14:03

because we need to provide

14:05

that value for the businesses who

14:07

are presenting . So

14:10

if you would like to come along , then

14:12

you can drop Katie , who does

14:14

our marketing , an email . So

14:17

she is . It's got to be an easier way

14:19

to do this , but again there's not . Perhaps you could

14:21

put a link in the transcript way

14:26

to do this , but again there's not . Perhaps you could put a link

14:28

in the transcript .

14:30

Uh , k-a-t-i-e bannum which is dot b-a-n-h-a-m at audio ukorguk we'll

14:33

put it in the show notes for you as well . Now

14:35

, outside of talking to

14:37

government and trying to change policy

14:39

and running events , what else does

14:42

audio uk do ?

14:43

so , yeah , I must give a big shout out to

14:45

the apas , which are our annual awards

14:48

ceremony . Katie messaged me beforehand

14:50

was like make sure you mention the apas , chloe

14:52

, so they're at the bfi in

14:55

november . I think it's

14:57

november . Actually , I don't want to give , I'll get the date wrong

15:00

, which is classically me . So I was going to give you an exclusive

15:02

date reveal somewhere in november .

15:04

It's around . Then We'll let you know .

15:06

On a Wednesday towards the end . I should

15:08

have briefed myself a bit better on that . Apologies about that . So

15:11

we do that . As you say , we do a lot of

15:13

events . So I would absolutely say

15:15

please join

15:17

Audio UK If you are not sure

15:19

if you're eligible to be a member . We're

15:22

broadening the membership more and more

15:24

. As I say , our key driver

15:27

is very much about growing this

15:29

industry , about bringing more

15:31

money into it for our businesses . We all

15:33

do it for the love , but you need to earn the money

15:35

to keep going as well . But

15:37

we are primarily member funded

15:40

and so the more people that join

15:42

, the merrier . We have a join us button

15:44

on our website and as part

15:46

of that , everything that I've spoken about

15:48

, we are doing an increasing amount of events

15:51

because we find that members get a huge

15:53

amount of benefit from that . So

15:55

we recently ran an event with PACT

15:58

, who are the TV and film equivalent

16:00

of us , which was a

16:02

TV versus podcasting

16:04

networking event . Obviously , as

16:06

we all know , podcasting is not just audio

16:08

, it's every single different IP extension

16:11

you could possibly know about . And what

16:13

was really nice about that event was we brought PAT

16:15

members together with Audio UK members

16:18

. They were able to network . We

16:20

had a presentation from Karina

16:22

at Buzz16 and from

16:24

Tony Pastor at Goalhanger and

16:26

it was just a great time for

16:28

, you know , people might have a podcast idea but they

16:31

don't know how to exploit the TV IP

16:33

extension , or people in TV

16:35

might want to learn more about podcasting . So

16:37

we're trying to do more and more of those

16:40

events that grow people's businesses

16:42

and

16:44

more of those events that grow people's businesses , grow their opportunities

16:46

. I'm a huge collaborator . We are relaunching our audio

16:49

train platform this year , which

16:51

is very much about providing open

16:53

access training to the whole

16:55

podcast , audio radio , audiobook

16:58

industry . It's in the early stages

17:00

but will very much be around a kind of

17:02

series of training

17:04

videos from industry experts . So if

17:06

you want to know how to story

17:09

edit , you want to know how to monetize your podcast

17:11

, you want to know how to market your podcast , you want

17:13

to know about audio drama , there should be a video

17:15

for everything . So I'm very excited about that

17:17

and we also are

17:20

generally at most of the

17:22

events we get around quite a lot . So

17:25

the uni pod fest is coming up on the 4th

17:27

of april see you yeah

17:29

, great . And bernard , uh , ashton pong

17:31

, who is the vice chair and obviously

17:33

founder of unedited , he and I are doing a

17:36

workshop and so , yeah , we'll see you there

17:38

and I'm really excited about the

17:40

podcast show . Um , I do

17:42

love the podcast show . It's

17:44

an opportunity to see all your work , friends

17:47

, and it's increasingly international , which is

17:49

important for us . So we've announced

17:51

our first panel there , which is called

17:53

2025 to 2035

17:56

predictions for the future of podcasting

17:58

.

17:59

Seat one , row one , I'll be there .

18:00

I know I mean it's a little bit tongue inin-cheek

18:03

, but I'm looking forward to it .

18:04

Mystic Chloe . That's the new title

18:06

.

18:07

I want the audience to put their predictions in

18:09

, but I'm chairing that and then there's

18:11

going to be Megan Bradshaw from

18:14

Amazon Music , Tiffany Ashtay

18:16

from Acast and Jessica

18:18

Cordova Kramer from Lemonada

18:20

Media . So I think incredible amount

18:22

of knowledge there . And we've already

18:24

made the joke that we're going to have a swear jar

18:27

if anyone says video , because

18:29

obviously there's so much out there , like

18:31

every time on LinkedIn , I'm so

18:33

happy to read about it , but it's like is

18:36

video the future of podcasting ? And we think we

18:38

know that video has got a part in it now . So

18:40

our promise to you on that panel is

18:42

, if we say video , we have to put

18:45

a pound in the jar .

18:46

I tell you , the drinks that evening are going to be amazing

18:49

.

18:49

And we've also got a couple more that

18:51

I'm really excited about , but I can't

18:54

announce yet , so hopefully they should

18:56

come and yeah , all the other

18:58

things . But , as I say , we're real

19:00

focused on pushing really

19:02

hard to grow this industry that we

19:04

love , whether that's through bringing

19:07

more money in from advertising , through getting

19:10

a seat on the Creative Industries Council , we're just

19:12

sort of hammering away at

19:14

the moment .

19:15

Hopefully , more people will hear this and join

19:17

. More people will also

19:19

ping you to come along to your event . Yes

19:22

, and we will all see you

19:24

, hopefully at the London Podcast Show

19:26

. Chloe Straw , thank you so much .

19:28

Thanks for having me Get updated every

19:30

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