0:00

And our host said, oh,

0:02

oh, you know those are actually those are

0:04

the poisonous snakes that live in

0:07

the trees and at the base of the trees. And so

0:09

I'm thinking, like, what, okay, I'm

0:11

going to walk through this forest where there are sleeping

0:13

snakes that I can't see and if

0:15

I step on what happens to me if I

0:17

step on them? I asked him, and he's like, oh,

0:20

well you'll die.

0:28

Welcome back to Point of Origin, the podcast

0:30

about the world of food from around the world. I'm

0:32

your host, Steven Saderfield, and today's

0:35

episode is a sweet one. It

0:38

is a lovely theme that we're calling from

0:41

a flower, which is a celebration

0:43

of both fruit and flower. And

0:46

putting together this episode, we kind of

0:48

backed into a greatest

0:50

hits from the Mediterranean,

0:52

Middle Eastern kitchen. So

0:54

honey, dates, and saffron

0:57

will all take center stage today. One

0:59

of the boy it says that you'll hear is from an old friend

1:01

of mine, Gordon Hall, who is and

1:04

has been for some time now, making

1:06

one of the most distinctive beverages you will

1:08

ever taste. It is a

1:10

sparkling honey wine made

1:13

in the style of a fine Champagne.

1:15

It's super good and you will

1:18

learn all about Gordon, all about his honey

1:20

wine and how it's made. We're

1:22

also going to check in with one of the coolest

1:24

ladies in the game, Lela el Amine, of

1:27

the Recipe Hunters, and Lela is

1:30

so very cool. She's just like us,

1:32

an origin forager who

1:34

for the last five years has been traveling around

1:36

the world visiting and documenting

1:39

small agrarian communities, which

1:41

she does remarkably well. And today

1:44

she's going to tell us a story that you will

1:46

not want to miss. It is a

1:49

very harrowing harvest expedition

1:52

in the Seaway Oasis in Egypt.

1:55

And last but not least, ethan

1:57

Frish stops by to talk to us

2:00

all about saffron. Hey,

2:12

Hey, how are you Ben

2:15

good? I'm calling you from the

2:18

iHeart Radio studios

2:20

in Atlanta, Georgia. Our

2:22

next guest is Leela Elamine.

2:25

She is an award winning docu media producer

2:28

with a concentration in photography,

2:30

videography and writing. She is

2:33

one half of the Recipe

2:35

Hunters, who are frequent collaborators

2:37

with Whetstone Magazine and

2:39

we are pleased to have her join us

2:42

today to talk about, among other

2:44

things, one of my all time favorite

2:46

stories that has ever appeared in print.

2:48

It is a story of a date palm harvest

2:51

in the sea. What oasis? Leela

2:54

el Amine, thanks for joining us on point

2:56

of origin. Thanks

2:59

Stephen, I'm so I need to be here. Well,

3:01

we are thrilled to talk to you. Uh

3:04

and before we we talked about

3:06

the aforementioned story, we

3:08

should talk about who you are, UM and

3:10

how you got into your current

3:13

world of documenting stories

3:16

about food and people all over the world.

3:19

I had like a very untraditional path,

3:21

you know. I graduated college, I decided I wanted to

3:23

be a doctor. I started doing research,

3:26

and then I read this book about

3:28

cancer and I fell in love with a

3:30

science behind cancer, and so I wanted

3:32

to cancer research. And you know,

3:34

I didn't really think about the implications of

3:36

working with cancer patients, but I ended up

3:38

working with specifically people that had three

3:40

to six months to live. UM.

3:43

They were enrolling in these clinical trials as

3:45

like a last ditch hope to

3:47

you know, find a cure. And

3:50

I formed really close relationships

3:53

with my patients, and it was it

3:55

ended up being the best thing that I ever did, but

3:57

also the most difficult I

4:00

ended up, you know, spending a lot of time with these

4:02

people who were you know, essentially

4:05

dying, and and throughout my time

4:07

at the cancer center, I just kept

4:09

hearing the same things. I kept hearing, like, I

4:12

wish that I'd lived my life according to my passions

4:14

and interests and not let society

4:16

dictate who I am, what I do, what I

4:18

love, and what I value. And I

4:21

wish that I had traveled, and I wish that I had,

4:23

you know, been a dancer, and I

4:25

wish that I had really lived

4:27

my life according to what I

4:30

wanted to do. And hearing that over

4:32

and over again, I kind of started to re

4:34

examine what I was doing with my life. And

4:37

one patient in particular, really

4:40

he said, you know, Leyla, say

4:42

yes to everything and reach for

4:44

the sky. And then he passed away,

4:46

and I just kept like

4:48

hearing what he said and you know, in my ear.

4:51

And so I decided to take a sabbatical

4:53

from you know, school and work,

4:56

and I

4:58

began saying yes to everything. So I moved out,

5:00

you know, to the Midwest. I started volunteering on a

5:02

cheese farm. I started working as a cheesemonger.

5:05

I started like working on goat

5:07

farms and and volunteering at

5:09

farmers markets and just really like diving

5:12

into everything that I had ever been

5:14

interested in. And along the way, I brought

5:16

my camera because I'd always you

5:18

know, loved photography.

5:21

And around the same time, I met

5:24

my business partner, Anthony, who

5:26

was kind of going through the same thing, like trying

5:29

to figure out what he wanted to do with his

5:31

life and what was important to him. So

5:33

we had this crazy idea,

5:36

so crazy about six years ago

5:38

too, to start volunteering on

5:41

farms around the world according to what

5:43

we were interested in. Like five and a half years

5:45

later, like we've volunteered in over

5:48

seventy international communities, learning

5:50

about traditional food practices and

5:53

recording them and documenting them, and

5:55

learning about endangered ingredients around the

5:57

world, and and he's endangered rust

5:59

at Ease and working with some of the most amazing people

6:02

you can imagine, like people that are so close to

6:04

the earth and so close to their culture

6:06

and their history. And we we originally

6:08

began by recording the

6:10

recipes and the stories of these people and

6:13

these cultures via photojournalism,

6:15

and it naturally evolves because of my interest

6:17

in video to film, So

6:20

you know, we started making short documentaries about

6:23

the the lives and stories

6:25

of these indigenous people

6:27

really keeping their culinary

6:29

heritage alive through the practice of traditional

6:32

food ways. And when

6:34

you were thinking about

6:37

living your life after you've gotten

6:39

this really pointing

6:42

advice, living your life in

6:44

the way that you saw fit? Um,

6:46

what was it about agriculture

6:49

and farming? Like, I know for anyone

6:52

the response to that could mean many

6:54

different things, but for you it meant going to a

6:56

farm. Where do you think that inclination

6:58

came from. I wanted to be closer

7:00

to nature. We were interested

7:03

in agriculture to understand what

7:05

we eat. And then also

7:07

there's just something so peaceful

7:10

about working on a farm and

7:12

being close to nature and touching nature. Have

7:14

you had a particular

7:17

agricultural experience that has made

7:19

you feel like maybe that is a way that you

7:21

would like to spend your life,

7:23

or have you felt more content

7:25

that your role as a documentarian is

7:28

actually the better way to serve and satisfy

7:30

your interest. Yeah, that's such

7:32

a great question, Stephen. I actually I

7:35

do want to have agriculture as part of my

7:37

life and on a day to day

7:39

basis, Like if I am somewhere for a

7:41

period longer than you know, one month.

7:44

I already have my own sour dough yeast, and I've

7:46

planted seeds. I have like

7:48

corn growing from Pueblo, Mexico.

7:51

Right now it's in my it's actually in my bones,

7:53

like and so right now I'm

7:55

I'm young, I'm excited. I have so much energy.

7:58

I want to keep documenting food. But

8:01

I do foresee in the future finding

8:04

a nice patch of land and you

8:06

know, growing my own food and having my own animals

8:08

on a small scale enough to you know, serve

8:10

myself and my neighbors. But it is something

8:13

that I do that dream about, you know,

8:15

definitely. So let's talk

8:17

about how you ended up

8:20

in Egypt, or

8:22

and specifically uh

8:24

in an oasis called Seewa.

8:26

So, first of all, where is

8:29

Siwa and how did you find

8:31

your way there? See what is in the

8:33

northwest region of Egypt. It's

8:35

about thirty miles east of Bolivian border.

8:38

But what we've got to see what from Alexandria,

8:41

which is the ports city um in northern

8:43

Egypt. And you have to drive

8:46

seven hours in the desert in order to get

8:48

to this oasis. It's incredibly

8:50

secluded, I mean, and for that

8:52

reason, you know, it's still retains a

8:54

lot of its culture and a lot

8:56

of it's you know, a thousand year old traditions,

8:59

just because it's so hard to get to and

9:02

what brought you there? We went to see

9:04

what on Actually the first leg

9:06

of our journey, I think we were

9:08

gone for eight and a half months with

9:11

backpacks. We were we originally went

9:13

to Egypt and we were searching for traditional

9:16

recipes. But we did start

9:18

up out at the Pyramids and we

9:20

were volunteering in a hostel there refurbishing

9:23

furniture, and you know, while we were there, we

9:25

were learning about tamaya, like learning

9:27

how to make it's like Egyptian flawful, learning

9:29

how to make bread, learning how to make Egyptian malahia.

9:32

And during our time we went to Cairo,

9:35

and we kept hearing about this because

9:37

we were living with food researchers that we had

9:39

found, you know, online, they

9:42

were part of the Slow Food Network. We

9:44

decided to go

9:47

to this oasis.

9:49

The driver picks us up and we drive for seven

9:51

hours in the desert. Actually we drive from

9:53

Cairo to Alexandria, then

9:56

from Alexandria to see

9:58

you, and I remember I slept

10:00

for a lot of the rye because it's pure

10:02

desert. I mean, you look around you and you can

10:04

see nothing but you know, sand

10:06

and sky. So we're driving in the desert,

10:09

driving in the desert, and you

10:11

know, we passed by these orange dunes and

10:13

everything. We see bedwinds on their

10:15

camels, and we all

10:18

of a sudden go up a hill and go down and

10:21

you see the most stunning glistening

10:24

lakes and you see palm trees

10:27

and it's the most It's like, especially

10:29

after being in the desert for so many hours,

10:32

you feel like you've entered a paradise. And

10:35

I have to say this, We've been to so many

10:37

different places around the world. This is one

10:39

of the most beautiful, surreal places.

10:42

It doesn't even feel real. So

10:45

incredibly beautiful. Wow,

10:49

incredible. So once

10:51

you got there, you

10:53

did you already have a plan, like

10:55

a volunteering plan set up or

10:58

did you sort that out once you round? So

11:01

Anthony and I sort of bartered

11:03

work for Roman

11:05

Board a lot of times. So in

11:08

this instance, we contacted these

11:10

farmers that we found through

11:12

the Slow Food Network that

11:15

we're preserving an endangered

11:17

type of date and

11:20

the tree of the date, and so

11:22

we reach out to them and we said, hey, um,

11:25

we're you know, we're documentary filmmakers,

11:27

and at that point, I think we were just doing photography,

11:30

so we you know, we said, hey, like, we want

11:32

to come research or food, take pictures

11:34

of it, learned some traditional recipes. Can

11:37

we stay with you guys in exchange, will

11:39

work on the farm and will help you. And

11:41

they're like absolutely, Like we we definitely

11:44

need help. Right now, we're actually doing the pollination

11:46

of the day trees. So if you could come help us clear

11:48

out the forest, will put you up

11:51

in our home. Up until this

11:53

point, was this your first encounter with the date

11:55

pomp. It's funny. We lived in

11:58

Cyprus for about six

12:00

weeks previous to going to Egypt,

12:02

and we had just missed the harvest

12:04

season um in Cyprus, so when

12:07

we heard about the opportunity to learn more

12:09

about dates in Egypt, we jumped

12:11

at it. And I'm

12:13

Lebanese American. I grew up eating

12:16

dates. It's like what you

12:18

had at the end of a big meal. It's what you

12:20

know your mom gives you as like an energy

12:23

booster. So I had never

12:25

I had seen dates on trees, but I never

12:28

really thought about how the process

12:30

was of you know, harvesting

12:33

dates how they did it, and it's actually absolutely

12:36

phenomenal how people harvest dates

12:39

around the world, specifically in

12:41

in Egypt. You know, these indigenous

12:44

seaweed men they you

12:46

know, we are wearing socks and they climb up these

12:48

fifty ft trees like

12:50

it's nothing, like like you know, they're

12:52

spiders or something. I can't even We called

12:55

the guy that was hiwing us around and that was

12:57

pollinating the day trees. His name was Echo,

13:00

and he climbed these trees like an

13:02

avatar, so we ended up calling him Echo the Avatar.

13:05

It was really unbelievable

13:07

to see the amount of strength that these men

13:10

have, you know, as kids, they're

13:12

they're climbing these palm trees, so when

13:14

they get to be men, it's like it's like nothing. Yeah,

13:17

and we we do have a photograph of

13:19

Echo in the magazine and is it's

13:21

really phenomenal to see and

13:25

like the trees themselves. You

13:27

have to set the scene for us a little bit more,

13:30

because there's so much going on in

13:32

this story. Can we back up to

13:34

the actual pollination of

13:36

the dates? How does it all

13:38

happen? To give you guys a little bit of a

13:41

setting or context, but no

13:44

US Island is where the date

13:46

tree forest was that we were volunteering

13:48

on, and it's on one of

13:50

the lakes in the oasis,

13:53

and basically it's

13:55

this massive grove

13:58

of date tree ease and they still

14:01

have ancient Roman aqueducts

14:03

throughout the island. They also

14:05

have vegetable beds where they're like

14:08

they have you know, chippeas and fava beans.

14:11

But at the point they were

14:13

regenerating this this date

14:16

tree forest because it had gone kind

14:18

of unwatched and unkept for

14:20

a while, so they were reclaiming it are our

14:23

hosts. When we got there,

14:25

we we started helping them clean the

14:27

date tree forest. So basically,

14:30

female trees are the ones that produced the

14:32

fruit. And because

14:34

of that, throughout the years, people have

14:36

really taken care of the female trees and kind

14:38

of let the male trees, you know,

14:41

they haven't cared about them so much because they're

14:43

not the ones producing the fruit. But they still

14:45

grow a certain amount of male trees so

14:48

that they can pollinate the female

14:50

trees. And basically

14:53

in the old days, what would happen is there would

14:55

be enough male trees that it would just the wind would

14:57

pollinate. But now since they

14:59

don't have of, you know, so many

15:01

male trees, they have to actually climb

15:03

the trees with the male seeds

15:06

in their hands and bring them

15:08

and put them into the female

15:11

inflorescence. So

15:13

basically Echo would

15:16

would go climb up a male tree, cut

15:18

off the space which holds

15:20

the inflorescence, which has the germinating

15:22

seeds, and then he would

15:24

bring it back to the tent. He

15:26

would cut it open and

15:29

he would shake off the inflorescence

15:32

and he would um take all

15:34

of that, all of the germinating

15:37

seeds, and he would climb up

15:39

into a female tree and he would

15:41

you know, stick the male

15:44

germanating seeds into the

15:46

female flowers in order

15:48

to germinate them. So yeah,

15:52

exactly, he was acting as a beat. But the

15:54

most interesting thing that I learned, I think

15:56

about pollinating day trees and

15:58

even harvesting dates, is

16:00

that it is incredibly dangerous,

16:03

not only because of the height, but also

16:05

because at the top of the tree, in

16:08

order to protect itself, the tree

16:10

grows these crazy long

16:13

spikes and if the spikes

16:16

touch you, they will or if they

16:18

like, pierce you, basically they

16:21

can infect you. So you have to you

16:23

first have to take a spike out and then burn

16:25

the area that has been touched by the

16:27

spike. So

16:29

insane, And we see later in the

16:31

story an example of just how

16:34

intense these spikes are because

16:36

on the floor there's

16:38

a whole another dangerous situation going

16:41

on to right. Oh my gosh. Yes,

16:43

So when we first arrived on

16:46

the this little island where they have all

16:48

the date date palm trees, we

16:51

are walking by and they're, you know, they're giving us like a

16:53

tour of all the trees. And I see something

16:56

kind of swaying in the winds,

16:58

kind of like a ribbon. And and then I look closer,

17:00

I see a few ribbons swinging in the wind.

17:03

And as I walk closer, I

17:05

realized that there are snakes whose

17:08

heads have been smashed in

17:10

by the by that same needle that

17:13

you find at the top of the tree. And they've

17:15

they've been hammered into the tree.

17:17

These snakes are just hanging. And

17:19

then there's like a couple, you know, just token

17:22

scorpions, also hanging. So

17:25

and I'm like, I, you know,

17:27

you jump. I jumped, and I was like, oh

17:29

my gosh, what what? What? Where

17:31

did you why? What's going on? And

17:35

our host said, oh, oh,

17:37

you know those are actually those are the poisonous snakes

17:39

that that live in the trees and at the

17:41

base of the trees. But don't worry, they're

17:43

sleeping. But but but don't step

17:45

on them. You can't step on them. If you step on them, they'll

17:47

bite you, but you won't really be

17:49

able to see them. And so I'm

17:52

thinking, like, what, Okay, I'm going to

17:54

walk through this forest where there are sleeping snakes

17:56

that I can't see and I step

17:58

on What happens to me if I step on

18:00

them? I asked him, and he's like, oh, well,

18:03

you'll die.

18:06

You can imagine. And I'm in the midst

18:08

of the sporting Actually that's the thing.

18:12

So I'm like, wait a minute, I'm

18:14

sorry, you're telling me that we'll we'll die

18:17

and what And he's like, you'll

18:20

die. I won't die because they put the

18:22

venom in our milk as infants,

18:24

so we drink small, small doses

18:26

of the venom so we'll have the antibody

18:29

or anti venom against the snakes.

18:32

So I'm just like, oh my god, I can't

18:34

believe that we have agreed to do this. I

18:37

had known and actually, you know, Steven,

18:39

that's super dangerous. Like, there are things that

18:42

we have come across and actually

18:44

informing a lot of the most dangerous,

18:47

I feel like have been snakes. You

18:49

know. We were in Mexico working in agave

18:53

farm and it was the same thing that's like, well, don't

18:55

step on the snakes there by pit vipers

18:57

and they'll kill you. And you're like, well, how do

18:59

you know if you stop snake? So

19:02

um, Yeah, that was pretty

19:04

scary. That

19:06

is incredible. So do you have

19:08

a sense of most of the dates there

19:11

we're being exported or were they being

19:13

consumed on the island? Um,

19:17

I'm actually I did at one point

19:19

of that, but I'm actually not sure. I Mean, one

19:21

thing I do know is that dates

19:24

and these palm trees are an integral

19:26

part of the culture, history, and identity

19:28

of the Seawen people. It's

19:31

one of their main sources of sustenance.

19:33

Literally, everything you could possibly make with dates

19:36

they make and with the trees and

19:38

with the leaves. I mean, they make

19:41

baskets out of the leaves, they make toys for

19:43

the children out of the leaves. They make

19:45

their houses from the tree trunks. They

19:48

make date bread, they

19:50

make date pudding, They make

19:52

date juice, they make date alcohol,

19:54

I mean, anything you could think of they

19:57

make with dates. And the one

19:59

kind of a dish that really my

20:02

attention is one that I had never heard

20:04

of, if we can call it a dish,

20:07

but to jela um,

20:09

which is made kind of with the state pudding

20:11

that you just mentioned. Can you explain that dish to

20:13

us? Yeah? Sure so, And

20:15

I'm just going to take a step back really quickly to talk

20:17

about the society of see what if that's okay? Please?

20:20

Yes. So Seewa is a really really interesting

20:23

place. It's segregated by

20:25

men and women. But when I say segregated,

20:27

I mean segregated. You

20:30

you walk into this bustling, you know, town

20:33

of people and there

20:35

are no women. So you're completely

20:38

surrounded by men. And the women they

20:41

mostly you know, do household work. They stay

20:43

within the family. They are completely veiled,

20:45

so even when they are out, you don't really

20:48

see them. And the men mostly take care

20:50

of going into the city or the town

20:52

and they do a lot of like the working on farm.

20:55

They you know, they go out to the restaurants, they

20:57

go out super they're the ones that go

20:59

out shopping. It's not primarily the women Um.

21:02

So while we were there for the first you

21:04

know, three days, I did not interact

21:06

with one woman. Um. Finally,

21:08

after you know, volunteering on the farm, I

21:10

was like, hey, guys, I really want to learn traditional recipes,

21:13

Like can you introduce me to the women. So

21:15

they brought me to spend time

21:17

with the women to learn the traditional recipes.

21:20

And it was at that point that

21:22

I spent a day with a group

21:25

of Seawee women and they taught me how

21:27

to make their traditional to jella.

21:30

And to jela is basically a

21:32

I would say, like a date pudding, but

21:35

it is a very very special dish

21:38

that is used to sort

21:41

of indicate how good of

21:43

a cook a woman is. And

21:46

it's often said that you know when when

21:48

when a woman first marries, assigned

21:50

to show that she's going to be a good wife

21:53

is how how well she makes the tijella.

21:56

So to jela is basically

21:58

that you take all of these dates, you deepit

22:00

them, and then you create a paste

22:03

with with water and by heating the

22:06

dates up, and you stir the

22:08

tigella for hours and hours

22:10

and hours, slowly

22:12

adding a little bit of water, a little bit of

22:14

wheat that that has grown on the island

22:17

on the oasis, and

22:20

it is just one of the most simple

22:22

yet intricate recipes I've ever come across,

22:25

because the trick is you have

22:27

to have the perfect consistency, and

22:30

I would really liken the consistency too,

22:34

maybe like a I don't know if like a

22:36

Semolina put in, I don't know if

22:38

you've ever had that, but actually

22:41

very creamy, completely consistent

22:44

throughout. You don't feel any pieces of dates.

22:46

It's absolutely delicious. But the one

22:48

thing is that you know you don't whenever you cook

22:51

with dates, you don't add sugar because dates have

22:53

so much inherent natural sugars

22:55

in them, so um, it ends

22:57

up being this dense, thick a

23:00

me putting of dates. Yeah,

23:02

and it looks sort of like a caramel

23:04

color almost. And

23:08

my favorite thing that you say in this story

23:10

is if strength had a flavor, it

23:12

would be this. So I'm assuming

23:14

that just like the intensity and all

23:17

of the like almost distillation

23:19

of all the sugar and sweetness after many hours

23:22

of stirring, it just must be like really

23:24

out of this world. It really

23:26

is. After having it, I've never

23:29

tasted something before that after having

23:31

it, you immediately feel energy. I

23:33

mean It is like a crazy

23:35

energy boost where you feel like you can

23:37

take on the world, you know, and it fills you up

23:39

for hours and hours and toe Jella.

23:42

One of the most interesting things about it is that you

23:44

eat it with olive oil and you

23:46

can only have a little bit of it because it's so

23:48

filling, you know, it just

23:50

sits in your stomach and it's

23:53

it's absolutely delicious, but it gives you a sense

23:55

of like what the people ate

23:58

in terms of, you know, being farmers

24:00

and having to work on the field and really needing

24:02

a lot of nutrients and a lot of energy. To

24:05

Jella really is the perfect dish

24:07

too when you think of a farmer that they would

24:10

that they would eat to keep them, you know, keep

24:12

them strong and going throughout the harvest and throughout

24:15

sowing the seeds. Is the

24:17

best place to find you online

24:20

at the recipe Hunters or is there another

24:22

place? Yeah, we post

24:24

all of our content, including

24:26

the short documentary films, on the recipe

24:28

hunters dot com so www. Dot recipe

24:31

hunter dot com. But we also have an

24:33

Instagram and I I check

24:35

that you know every day, so it's at the

24:37

recipe Hunters and any questions, you know,

24:39

just shoot me a message on Instagram. And

24:42

that's one thing that Anthony and I we

24:44

really want to be there for our community.

24:46

UM, So we answer questions all the time. We

24:49

encourage people to try our recipes which are

24:51

on our website, and it's great when they

24:53

send us pictures of you know, this

24:55

endangered recipe that they're you

24:58

know, practicing at home. Um, that

25:00

really is why we're doing this. So it feels good.

25:02

Yeah, definitely, Thank you so

25:05

much for your time and for all

25:07

of your really interesting and important

25:09

work. Thanks ste when you're the best.

25:12

Okay, talk to you soon. Chow.

25:15

That is Leela el Amine of

25:17

the recipe Hunters, friend of Whetstone,

25:20

documentary filmmaker, media

25:23

producer Extraordinary. What

25:46

next up. We are in northern California

25:49

in the idyllic town of Point Raise,

25:51

one of my favorites in all of California, with

25:53

Gordon Hole, the man who puts

25:55

the bees in Bubbly. You're

25:58

listening to Point of Origin, a

26:01

podcast from whet Stone Magazine

26:03

and I Heart Radio today.

26:06

Our theme is from a flower,

26:09

delicacies and enjoyments

26:11

that derive from the flower, and

26:13

we're talking to an old friend

26:15

of mine, Gordon Holl who

26:18

is the only person of his kind

26:20

that I know of. He is a mead maker in

26:24

northern California and he's

26:26

joining us this morning to talk to us

26:28

about sparkling mead. Thanks

26:30

for coming on to Point of Origin. My pleasure,

26:32

Stephen. Great to hear your voice. Same

26:35

same. So I have

26:37

to always begin in talking about your

26:40

your product, um as someone who

26:43

grew up as Sammier uh

26:45

and can often be not really

26:47

jaded but feeling very

26:49

familiar with you know, wine

26:51

and alcoholic beverages of all kinds. The

26:54

first time I encountered your meat, it stopped

26:57

me dead in my tracks because I'd never tasted

26:59

anything quite like it. It's

27:01

a really distinctive product, um. So

27:03

before we talk about what it is in

27:05

particular, I think it's probably

27:08

worth us talking about where you're

27:10

located, because it has a lot to

27:12

do with the overall flavor

27:14

of the meat. Yes, certainly. Well,

27:17

we're located, as you said, in northern

27:19

California and Point Race Station.

27:21

We occupy what at one point

27:24

was a small dairy farm,

27:27

which we have converted into

27:29

a metery. And here we're producing wine

27:32

from honey instead of grapes, and

27:34

we're using honey that we produce

27:37

with our own bees that we keep

27:40

on the property and in

27:42

other locations around northern California.

27:45

And then we also produced meat from

27:48

honeys that we procure from other

27:51

beekeepers all around the country.

27:53

And our meads, as you alluded

27:56

to, our sparkling,

27:58

and that's sort of a non traditional style

28:00

for a for a honey wine. So

28:07

you've probably heard of mead, but what Gordon

28:09

is doing is altogether unique

28:11

because his mead is naturally

28:14

effervescent, meaning that there

28:16

is no forced carbonation which

28:18

you find in soft drinks or bottled water.

28:22

Before we talk about the bubbles, we've got

28:24

to talk about the bees. Honey

28:27

bees, they

28:29

extract nectar from flower with very

28:32

specific flavor compounds. And one

28:34

of the best parts about hydrants meads

28:36

is that for every flower there

28:38

is a signature flavor compound that affects

28:41

the flavor of the honey and therefore

28:43

the flavor of the mead. Got

28:47

it And how did you begin

28:51

your journey to becoming a meat

28:53

maker. Well, it was a little bit by accident,

28:55

as many things are. My

28:57

intention was to start a brewery.

29:00

I was working against a commercial brewer in

29:02

Arcada, California, and

29:05

just learning the ropes well enough to start

29:07

my own business. But by coincidence,

29:10

I happened to be experimenting with

29:13

honey fermentation. Yeah, I mean,

29:15

and you conferment virtually anything.

29:17

What is it about honey that you

29:20

were particularly drawn to? Well, first

29:22

of all, honey is one of the most beautiful

29:25

materials to work with. One of the most beautiful

29:27

foods that I can imagine is honey is

29:29

quite literally the nectar of flower

29:32

blossoms that has been

29:34

harvested by honey bees

29:36

and processed into this substance

29:39

that is around eighty four

29:41

percent sugar water.

29:44

And that each honey has such

29:47

remarkably unique flavor characteristics

29:50

is just to me, is is fascinating.

29:52

And if you consider that there

29:54

are conceivably hundreds

29:57

of thousands of different varieties

29:59

of honey out there, there's a lifetime

30:01

of work to do to take these honeys and

30:04

drain takes them through a fermentation

30:07

process, this process that we've developed

30:10

and reveal the

30:13

essence of that very flower that

30:15

they come from. So beautiful,

30:17

such a poetic way to think about

30:20

it, and it really comes through

30:22

and in all the different flavors

30:24

of the meat. So once you started

30:27

making meat what what year was this? Well,

30:30

let's see, my first Batcher's Garage

30:32

mead was the nineteen and

30:37

I spent two years developing

30:40

the recipe and putting together

30:42

my business plan, acquiring

30:45

the equipment I needed before

30:47

opening a company.

30:49

And that was in Arcada, up in Humble

30:51

County, so just off of the Ark and

30:53

border on the on the Pacific Post.

30:56

So you're making meat in your garage in

30:59

the mid nineties. Um,

31:01

fast forward over, you

31:03

know, twenty or so years later,

31:06

what has changed for you, um,

31:08

in terms of your your process

31:11

but also the way of

31:13

the world the consumer. Well,

31:16

A good question, UM,

31:18

I think the biggest change for

31:21

us came about really

31:24

about twelve years into

31:26

the development of the company, when it became

31:29

clear that we needed to

31:31

find a way to expose

31:33

more of our community

31:36

to what we were doing. Look

31:38

being looking it up in Humble County was very

31:40

remote and my my primary market

31:43

was in San Francisco, five

31:45

hours drive away, and

31:47

that in itself presented the challenges.

31:50

And also I realized

31:52

that in order to introduce

31:56

consumers to the product we're putting

31:58

out, we really needed a destination for people

32:00

to go to, and that led me to

32:03

begin looking for farmland

32:05

closer to the Bay

32:07

Area, where we could in

32:09

a sense, developed the entire

32:12

coology of the honey bee on our farm

32:15

in terms of keeping honey bees

32:17

and throwing the bee

32:19

forage those those very flowers that the

32:22

bees feed off of. So moving

32:24

to the farm has been our biggest step and

32:27

just exposing people to what we're doing. Let's

32:30

talk about how the

32:33

sparkling mead is actually

32:35

produced. So

32:40

we've been talking about the honey and the

32:42

bee and how it imparts a distinctive

32:44

flavor on the mead, But now

32:47

let's talk about how the meat is made. So

32:51

the first step is to dilute

32:53

the honey with water, and

32:57

that's because honey is about eight or

33:00

percent sugar, which is far

33:02

too much to ferment on its own. So

33:05

in order to induce fermentation,

33:08

the honey has to be diluted to

33:10

a volume that more closely resembles

33:12

grape juice. Like when making wine, and

33:18

in the champagne method bottling,

33:21

you first add a very carefully

33:24

measured quantity of cane sugar and

33:27

a new inoculation of yeast. You

33:29

mix all that together in the bottling

33:32

tank, and then the the

33:35

wine is put into champagne

33:37

bottles, and a

33:39

beard cap is put on each of those

33:42

bottles, and the bottles are put into something called

33:44

garage bins. They're just storage

33:46

bins for bottles. They're put on their side

33:48

in those boxes and they go

33:51

through a secondary fermentation. And what happens

33:53

is that second inoculation

33:55

of yeast we put in the bottling

33:57

tank consumes thee

34:00

came sugar that we've also added,

34:02

and it produces a little bit more alcohol, but

34:04

more importantly, it produces carbon

34:07

dioxide. And since we do have a

34:09

beer cap on on the bottle,

34:12

the carbon dioxide cannot escape, and

34:15

that's how we get our natural

34:17

effervescence. After that's

34:20

done, there is a final process

34:22

in the method Champion law, in which the yeast

34:25

is removed from the bottle by

34:28

using the process of riddling and discouragement.

34:32

And then the product is if a

34:34

traditional champagne cork and fire

34:36

hood and goes through cleaning

34:39

inspection and then get spoiled and

34:41

boxed up and it's ready to go. And

34:43

the whole product process takes about

34:46

four months from start to finish. And

34:49

why do you think it is

34:51

that we haven't seen more

34:54

producers getting

34:57

involved and making such

34:59

a an interesting value added

35:01

product like sparkling mead. Well,

35:04

um, I think who we're starting to see

35:07

some producers attempting

35:09

to do this. I know that there have

35:11

been instances meteris

35:14

making carbonated artificially

35:16

carbonated needs in order to try to

35:19

create the same flavor characteristics.

35:22

That's the champagne method is

35:25

challenging, to say the least, that it takes

35:27

very specific equipment to

35:29

make it happen. That equipment can

35:31

be expensive, most of it comes from

35:34

from Europe, and then there are

35:36

a lot of opportunities to make

35:38

errors in the In the sparkling wine

35:40

process, it's difficult. It's about

35:43

five times the labor of making a still

35:45

wine. So I think it's a little bit daunting.

35:47

I've got lucky, I think in that when

35:49

I first started making my sparkling

35:52

Needs, I made it in a bottle

35:54

conditions style, which means that

35:57

the bottles we're going through a

35:59

secondary fermentation to create effervescence.

36:02

That eventually I didn't remove

36:04

the sediment, so there was sediments in the bottom

36:06

of each bottle. It's like some

36:08

of those bottle conditioned beers

36:10

that you can get at specialty beer

36:12

stars. So I think I was lucky to

36:14

get kind of step by steps. Genesis

36:17

is my product and it helps kind

36:19

of guide me towards where I am. Now, what can

36:21

you tell us about the ways

36:24

in which the different kinds of honey

36:27

m change the flavor profile of the meat.

36:29

Every flower has

36:33

really a unique signature

36:35

of aromatics and flavor compounds,

36:38

and these differentiations between

36:40

flowers are are essentially

36:42

that individual species of flowers

36:45

efforts to attract fallinators

36:48

to to pollinate the

36:50

flowers so that the that the plant

36:52

can produce more offspring.

36:55

We find that our meats sectrum

36:59

flavors of our eats can vary from

37:02

a very extremely

37:04

light, clear um,

37:08

almost grape wine quality of sparkling

37:11

wine all the way to flavors

37:13

that are similar to a Belgian

37:16

spaison, and and everything

37:19

in between. We have flavors that can be

37:21

earthy, incense,

37:24

certainly very floral flavors,

37:27

Some are of jasmine

37:30

or rose, some are very herbal.

37:32

So the carrot blossom

37:34

honey I'm getting from Central Oregon and the

37:37

peculiar flavors that it has, it

37:39

has this sort of vegetal quality

37:42

that in a honey is not really

37:44

desirable. It's a little bit funky.

37:47

But what we found is that when we put

37:49

that honey through our fermentation process

37:52

and allow the yeast to metabolize

37:54

that UH and to metabolize

37:56

all of those flavor compounds and make it

37:58

into something of a wall line, and

38:01

we taste that wine, we find

38:03

these flavors that are

38:05

I would describe as incense

38:08

and sandal wood. They're

38:10

smoky and woody with a

38:13

definitely a floral element

38:15

as well, and they're extraordinary

38:19

flavors that are unique to that

38:22

flower alone, to carrot blossom alone.

38:25

And we find that these flavor

38:28

characteristics of the flower are held

38:30

within a kind of a matrix of

38:34

the flavor characteristics

38:37

that come from the honeybee herself.

38:40

So if you picture what

38:42

the honeybee is doing, she's collecting

38:44

nectar from the flower and taking

38:46

it back, She's ingesting it

38:49

and taking it back to the hive, and then

38:52

she's putting that nectar into

38:54

the honeycomb and processing

38:57

it with her own enzymes,

38:59

and she's dehydrating

39:02

it from the high

39:04

water content of a flower nectar

39:06

down to the very low water content of

39:09

a honey She's dehydrating

39:11

it through heat and body heat

39:13

and air circulation and

39:16

then storing it in bees

39:18

wax, and all

39:20

of these efforts by the honey bee

39:22

lend flavors to that

39:25

honey and those flavors,

39:28

whether it be a flavor of bees

39:31

wax or of the propolists

39:33

that is a part of the hive, those

39:36

flavors come through and each and every one

39:38

of our varietals as well. So

39:41

we're really talking about a wine

39:43

experience that is, Um,

39:46

it's very complex. It is

39:49

including both the botanical flavors

39:52

of the flower and the animal

39:55

flavors of the honey bee. And it's

39:58

an experience really unlike any other.

40:01

And it's one that lends

40:03

itself to a sparkling wine, and

40:05

that by making it sparkling and more importantly,

40:07

by my making it dry, you're

40:10

able to taste those uh

40:12

distinct flavors. And that's what

40:14

makes up our whole product line

40:17

of all of our different meat rivals. Yeah,

40:19

and they're all amazing, and you,

40:23

I mean, have had so much experience sort

40:26

of as a in part

40:28

farmer and maker. UM,

40:31

I'm curious how over the

40:33

last two decades

40:35

or so, the constraints

40:38

on the bee population and

40:40

also the irregular climate

40:43

in northern California has affected

40:46

your meat making. The honey bee

40:48

situation is really quite ridiculous

40:51

right now. In fact,

40:53

we had this last winter our hardest winter

40:56

on record in Marin County.

40:58

I think that holds true for most the country.

41:01

Some of the data on that is still

41:03

coming out, but it wasn't pretty. We

41:05

lost something like our

41:08

colonies over the winter time, and

41:10

it just by comparison. Imagine

41:13

if you were a cattle farmer and you

41:15

lost seventy five of your heard over

41:18

over one season, over one year. You

41:20

know that kind of thing is devastating, and

41:23

we're not sure what to attribute

41:26

those problems too. I think maybe

41:28

for northern California to potential

41:31

contributors would be if

41:34

the smoke from the wildfires

41:36

we had here last fall

41:39

created some problem with the honey

41:41

bee navigation that may have affected

41:44

the health of the hives of the colonies. That's

41:47

certainly possibility, but I don't know of anybody

41:50

who's been able to verify that.

41:52

We also had an extraordinarily

41:55

wet winter. I'm actually

41:57

originally from Seattle, and I'm used to a

42:00

month or so of rain without stopping,

42:02

But since moving down to California,

42:04

it kind of got used to having these California

42:07

rains that happened for a day or two and

42:09

then blow away. But

42:11

this past winter we had seattle rains down

42:13

here and it would rain literally

42:16

for a week or two without stopping,

42:19

and our local bees aren't

42:21

acclimated to that, and I think

42:23

that may have had an effect on them as well.

42:26

And then there are sort of the

42:29

the other elements that are

42:31

affecting bees around

42:33

the world, and that has to do with

42:35

things like, um, the lack

42:37

of availability of healthy

42:40

nutrition that we don't have the the

42:44

natural beef. It's the flowers

42:46

in nature that we used to have in

42:48

this country or elsewhere due

42:50

to development and do to monocultural

42:53

farming. I

42:55

think that's been a factor, certainly

42:57

on a on a national level. That

42:59

you of pesticides has got

43:01

to be affecting the honeybee.

43:04

And then bees have not

43:07

the strongest immune systems

43:09

in the world, and they're vulnerable to

43:12

parasites and and viruses

43:15

and infections the same,

43:18

even more so than we are. And they're fairly

43:20

ephemeral organism um,

43:22

and so we need to expect that they will

43:25

the colonies will perish, but certainly

43:28

not in the numbers that we've been experiencing

43:30

lately. And anything we can

43:32

do to improve that

43:35

situation, I think is better for

43:37

the planet, quite honestly.

43:40

Uh. And that's one of the great things about the farm

43:42

that we have here is that it

43:44

provides a wonderful opportunity for us

43:47

to to educate our visitors

43:49

about the importance of the honeybee and how

43:52

exactly the honeybee works,

43:54

what she's doing for the planet. A lot of

43:56

people are don't

43:59

actually know exactly how honey

44:01

is produced. They may know that it

44:04

involves the honeybee, but

44:07

understanding that process

44:09

and greater detail and the ecology

44:11

of the honeybee, I think helps the

44:13

public to know how they can

44:15

help to ensure that we have a

44:18

healthy ecosystem for pollinators

44:20

in general. Yeah, and I know that

44:22

we talked a little bit about it in the very beginning,

44:25

but this is really important and useful.

44:28

Would you mind helping us um

44:31

understanding more clear terms what it

44:33

is that the honeybee is doing for

44:35

our ecology. The honeybee

44:38

in particular, performs a

44:41

critical service for

44:43

us as humans, and

44:46

that the honeybee is charged

44:48

with pollinating all of the

44:50

food crops that require pollination

44:53

in order to produce the fruits

44:55

and the nuts and the vegetables that we

44:58

eat on a daily basis, and

45:00

there are statistics on

45:02

how reliant we are on honey bees,

45:05

and something like two thirds of all of

45:07

the foods we eat our only

45:10

producible because we have pollinators

45:12

to produce them. So if you were

45:14

to picture a world in which we

45:16

did not have the honeybee

45:19

to pollinate those crops, it

45:21

would be a seriously different

45:24

world to live in, and our

45:26

food choices would have would

45:29

be extraordinarily limited. And

45:31

not only that, on a on a sort of broader

45:34

ecological scale, it

45:36

would affect the biodiversity

45:39

of the planet because the honeybee

45:41

and all of the other pollinators out there

45:44

are helping to ensure that our ecological

45:47

cycle continues and that all of the

45:49

diversity of plant species on

45:52

the planet can can propagate

45:54

and stay alive, and so that biodiversity

45:57

is is an essential part

45:59

of the health of our planet.

46:02

Well, thanks for breaking that down.

46:05

Thanks for your important role

46:07

in creating a inspiring

46:10

sanctuary for these bees, and UM

46:13

also teaching many people

46:15

about difficult topics

46:18

UM using alcohol. Kudos

46:20

to you. Good thinking with that. It's

46:22

a great teacher can be And uh,

46:24

I think if anyone is listening to this

46:27

podcast who has plans

46:30

to be in northern California or explore

46:32

Highway One. I can't recommend

46:35

enough a visit to Hydrant Meterary.

46:37

Um. It's such a serene and

46:40

beautiful place with some of the most

46:42

interesting and delicious fermented beverages

46:45

you are sure to try. So thanks

46:47

again for your time today, Gordon, and

46:50

I will hope to catch up soon and take my

46:52

own advice and come drinking with you. Well,

46:54

that's for sure, Stephen as nothing better

46:57

than getting you back here to the farm

46:59

and sharing a glass of meat with you. I

47:01

would love to do that. And

47:03

um, we have miles to go,

47:06

both you and I and our various projects,

47:08

but let's just keep pranking away

47:11

and share what we do with everybody

47:13

else. True. Indeed, I'll

47:15

take you up on it. Thank you so much, Gordon.

47:17

I appreciate it, you bet, Steven, take care

47:19

of yourself, all right, you too,

47:21

Talk soon, Okay, all right, chow

47:31

okay. Our final story

47:33

today, as I mentioned, was

47:36

inspired by the artist, photographer,

47:40

and writer who goes by the name of

47:42

Karai Moreba. She is

47:44

from southwestern Iran from

47:47

a province call Kutastan.

47:50

She travels through old towns

47:52

and villages in Iran, and her

47:54

travels are really informed by

47:57

exploring the local food traditions

47:59

of the area. In her Saffron

48:02

story from wet Stone Volume

48:04

three was really a standout

48:06

of all of the stories that we've ever published.

48:10

Karay has chosen to remain

48:12

anonymous, So in light

48:14

of that, I will do

48:17

the honor of reading an excerpt

48:19

from her story. Then right

48:21

after that we will be checking in

48:24

with a spice importer to

48:26

learn a little bit more about this fabled

48:29

flower. The

48:32

women going straight lines, picking whatever

48:34

is in arms length. They

48:39

hold their hand down in a Vulcan salute,

48:41

their fingers separated at the ring and middle

48:43

finger, grip each flower by the

48:45

stem and quickly pull, but

48:48

not too hard to keep the corm underground.

48:52

They each carry a bucket where they

48:54

throw the flowers, but Hodge Conoms

48:56

is the fullest, brimming

48:58

to the very top. They

49:00

each carry a bucket where they throw the flowers,

49:03

but Hodge Knams is the fullest, brimming

49:05

to the very top at

49:09

She's been doing this for over five decades.

49:12

She moves around the farm, squatting

49:15

and bent forward constantly, like

49:17

one who has every inch of the land etched

49:19

deep into her working memory. Picking

49:24

saffron reeks havoc on your body, especially

49:27

your back. It is the joy of

49:29

that blooming goal that keeps you going,

49:31

she later remarks, holding a handful

49:34

of flowers in her palm.

49:36

Locals do not call it saffron, but

49:38

simply goal a

49:41

flower. Our

49:48

next guest is Ethan Frish,

49:51

who is co founder of Burlap

49:53

and Barrel, a spice import

49:56

company. He's based in New York, and

49:58

we're talking to him from New York this morning. Ethan,

50:00

thanks for joining us, Thanks for learning. So,

50:03

Ethan, you are a spice dealer and

50:06

that's a pretty cool game. Can

50:09

you tell us how you

50:11

got into the spice

50:13

game and what does it mean to be a spice dealer

50:15

in the year two thousand nineteen. Yeah,

50:17

sure so, so I'm the co founder, was comming

50:19

called Burlapt and Barrel were a direct trade,

50:22

a single origin spice sourcing

50:24

company. As we worked with

50:26

small producers in about

50:28

a dozen countries, setting farmers up to export

50:30

their own crops, which hasn't really happened in

50:33

the history of the spice trade, and

50:35

then importing their spices to the US, which

50:37

we then supply to restaurants and manufacturers

50:41

as as well as home cooks. I was a

50:43

chef and then an international aid worker.

50:46

I lived in Afghanistan for several

50:49

years. I did credibit of work in the Middle East, uh

50:51

and I really I just started bringing spices

50:54

home in my duffle bag,

50:56

particularly from Afghanistan, where there's

50:59

a wild human that we started from the mountains but

51:01

then also sat from, which is something that Afghanistan

51:04

has been famous for for

51:06

for probably thousands of years. And I

51:09

just started bringing it home and sharing it with friends

51:11

in the restaurant industry and slowly

51:15

figured out how to turn it into a business.

51:17

Such a cool company, I want to talk

51:19

about Saffrans. So that's a wonderful segue.

51:22

It sounds like that was one of the very first

51:24

things that you brought back from your time

51:26

in Afghanistan, Is that right? Yeah?

51:29

It was, really it was. It was a spice that I

51:31

hadn't really worked with a whole lot before.

51:34

Um. You know, I had cooked in

51:36

in Indian restaurants and Italian

51:38

restaurants and Spanish restaurants.

51:41

I've had a pretty wide exposure to

51:43

a lot of spices and worked in cuisines that used

51:45

a shout on account run in Spain and India

51:47

in particular. But I

51:49

just hadn't I hadn't ever really looked

51:51

into it. And I think this is true in a lot of cases.

51:54

For professional chefs, you sort of so

51:56

it heads down in the kitchen, that

51:58

you don't have a lot of opportunity to think

52:01

more deeply about where certain ingredients

52:03

are coming from, or any of the agricultural

52:05

processes or the supply chains or the people behind

52:07

them. And so it was

52:09

really when I when I moved to Afghanistan and started

52:12

to to meet farmers or taste

52:14

different varieties, or start

52:16

to think more about ter war origin in

52:19

spices, that that I realized there's this

52:21

whole world that I had just been missing. With

52:24

saffron in particular, there

52:27

is a kind of cachet to it

52:29

um that I think people know

52:33

about the idea of saffron or

52:36

the price point of saffron, more than they

52:38

know about what it actually is.

52:40

So just in terms

52:42

of the plant itself, can you break

52:44

down for us what is saffron?

52:47

And um, we can talk about the culinary uses

52:49

afterwards. Yes, of course, the saffron

52:52

when you buy a saffron thread or

52:54

a little packet of saffron dread. But you're

52:56

actually buying is the top inch of

52:58

the statement of a purple

53:01

crocus flower. The flower

53:03

grows really close to the grounds. The

53:06

petals are, you know, three or four inches

53:08

long and really really beautiful

53:10

purple and white color. And then in the middle

53:13

of the petals there are

53:15

three threads that are the statements

53:17

of the flower that extend up from a longer

53:20

string that runs down through the stem of the

53:22

flower, and the top

53:24

inch or so of each thread is red.

53:27

And then as you go down that thread

53:30

where they where the three of them come together, and then down

53:32

through the stem of the flower, they turn yellow and then

53:34

and then white, and they run all the way down

53:36

through the stem as a long, single white

53:39

thread. So when you're buying really high

53:41

quality pures affront, all you're getting

53:43

is that top inch and one flower

53:45

produces three threads. You

53:48

hardest it once a year. It's it's

53:50

incredibly labor and land intensive, especially

53:53

in Afghanistan, will resource it. It's

53:56

the desert, so you have to the

53:58

flowers open pretty early in the morning before

54:00

it gets too hot, and you have to harvest

54:02

them right away before the sun drives them out.

54:05

And so so as a saffron farmer,

54:07

you have a very tight window, usually a

54:10

couple of weeks in the fall in

54:12

Afghanistan, that's from the harvest season is

54:14

in October November, and you have a

54:16

few weeks when you have to pick all of your flowers,

54:19

pick the flowers whole from the ground, and

54:21

then in in a little warehouse or

54:24

some other kind of facility, you're

54:26

pulling the flowers apart, separating those three

54:29

dreads from the rest of the flower and

54:32

drawing them. And the actual

54:34

harvest itself is it's

54:37

not mechanized. It's done by hand,

54:39

Is that right? Yeah, done by hand

54:41

mostly actually mostly picked by women. Although

54:44

unfortunately most of the staff from kind

54:46

of companies or the people you consider

54:48

sort of the farmer, the person who owns the land or

54:50

owns the production those, at least

54:53

in Afghanistan, those people tend to be men. And

54:55

then the people who work in the actual

54:57

staffron harvesting and separating

54:59

the same from rest of the flour, those

55:01

people tend to be with them. And one

55:04

of the things that Afghanistan is famous

55:06

for is it's saffron, and there's

55:08

been a fair amount of investment and

55:11

and also kind of hope in in

55:13

saffron as a

55:15

driver of economic growth in the country, and

55:17

especially in a country where a lot of farmers

55:19

are growing copies for opium,

55:22

saffan has often been seen as sort of replacement

55:24

crop. And that's a whole a whole bit or more

55:26

complicated political conversation. But

55:29

there's been a lot of investment by the US, by

55:31

other governments and by the Afghan government into

55:33

saffran production. And so there's there's

55:35

quite a lot of saffron grown in Afghanistan.

55:38

It's it's grown in the west right

55:40

on the border with Iran. It's the same

55:43

variety, the same the same bulb,

55:45

the same corns that they're using imuran. So it's

55:47

very similar often to the running saffron and

55:49

a very similar climate. Right it's right on the border.

55:51

So there's some Afghan saffron

55:53

gets exported from Afghanistan and it's labeled

55:56

as Afghan saffron, but quite a quite

55:58

a lot of it gets trucked a we're into the

56:00

border, over the border into Iran and

56:03

then either sold as Irani and saffron, or

56:05

often what happens with Irani and saffran

56:07

because of the sanction that have been impost on by

56:09

the US government. Um Iranni and saffron

56:12

is often shipped semi

56:14

legally into Spain, where

56:16

it's re labeled, repacked and

56:19

labeled a Spanish saffron and exported under

56:21

that label. There's also a huge amount of fraud

56:24

in saff run across the board. There's

56:26

there's some funny statistics. I

56:28

don't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head.

56:30

That Spain, which

56:32

you know again it's famous for its saffrom grows

56:35

something like a ton of saffron

56:37

a year, but they export something

56:39

like fifty tons.

56:44

It's a big difference. And where's that other forty

56:46

nine cons coming from? Uh?

56:49

Some of it is is Irani and

56:51

saffron, like I said, that's been smuggled in. Some of

56:53

it is safferent from other places like Morocco or

56:55

Greece, and people feel like the brands

56:58

and the name of the lay Spanish

57:00

saffron is more valuable, and so they just relabel

57:03

it the package in Spain. And then

57:05

a lot of it is actually other

57:07

parts of the plant. So that that

57:09

long thread that I was describing, and there's some beautiful pictures

57:11

in the west own

57:13

um article about it.

57:15

That showed that whole length of the saffron thread,

57:18

but the rest of the thread, the part that's

57:20

naturally white. Often that

57:22

will be cut into one inch segment and

57:24

dye bread and mixed in with

57:27

the actual statement of the flower um.

57:30

And so a company can legally claim

57:32

that it's a hundred percent saffron, but that it's

57:34

not the part of the flower, the

57:36

part of the plant that has the most flavor

57:38

and color, and that's that's really sort of what's

57:40

considered true saffron. So

57:44

if we want true saffron and keep

57:46

it real with us, just give us the truth. Do

57:49

we need to buy it from pearlap and Barrel,

57:51

Well, you definitely could, But

57:54

I mean, if you're buying staff from uh,

57:57

what I would recommend is looking at the individual stamens

58:00

um. There should be a little kind

58:02

of crown at the top. It should open up into

58:04

this. It looks like a tiny little crown

58:07

with a slight yellow tinge

58:09

at the top of the of each stamon. At the bottom,

58:12

you should see it taper down. And if it does

58:14

start to turn a little bit yellow at the bottom, that's a

58:16

good sign a lack of consistency

58:18

in color. Is actually generally good sign and

58:20

saffron because it shows either it wasn't

58:23

dyed, it dyed it's all pure red,

58:25

and another

58:28

you you'd have to buy it to be able to do this test. But

58:30

another way that you can test it is by pouring

58:32

some hot water over over

58:34

saffron threads a couple

58:36

of threads in a little bowl or a cup.

58:39

Um. Natural saffron will

58:42

will release its color in a stream

58:44

and it will almost come out from this statement

58:46

in a in a spiral. You'll get this long,

58:49

slow spiral of yellow color

58:51

and you'll you'll see it sort of spiral out in the

58:53

water. If it's been dyed, there

58:56

will be a really quick kind of puddle around

58:58

puddle of bright yellow color are around the thread.

59:01

Um. Just if the color comes out too quickly,

59:03

if it comes out in a circle rather than along the stream,

59:06

that's that's generally a bad sign. And

59:09

when you pour hot water over the saffron thread you may

59:11

also see them start to unfurl a little bit,

59:13

and that's a bad sign. That means that

59:15

somebody has taken other parts of the plant and kind

59:18

of rolled them up to make them look like

59:20

they're they're the real saffron thread.

59:23

But when you pour hot water where you can see them kind

59:25

of open up on the turl, that is

59:27

all super good. Intel as

59:29

a former chef, can

59:31

you give us some of your favorite

59:34

applications or for saffron.

59:37

Yeah, So saffon is a tricky ingredient

59:40

to team down. Flavor wise. It doesn't

59:43

have the same sort of intensity

59:45

of flavor that another spice. Mike,

59:48

I find that it's more sort of a like

59:50

almost a bouquet, like

59:52

a feeling in your mouth. It's

59:54

not it's not a flavor that that sort of sits

59:56

on your tongue in a way that that's something like cinnamon

59:59

or black pepper or another slice would um.

1:00:02

And it infuses really well into

1:00:05

into anything that's cooking in liquid. So

1:00:07

obviously the classic recipes are are staff

1:00:09

run and rice, whether that's person

1:00:12

traditions of stuff on rice or Spanish

1:00:14

versions of stuff on rice. But I also

1:00:16

I love it in tomato sauces. It adds

1:00:18

this this huge amount of death

1:00:20

and complexity to a tomato sauce. It's

1:00:23

great in baked goods if you bluem

1:00:26

it in a little bit of butter or something like that um

1:00:29

or or just mix some threads into a batter

1:00:31

or a dough that you're making, and give it enough

1:00:33

time to infuse. Um, you'll

1:00:35

get really beautiful sort of pockets of saffron

1:00:38

aroma as you as you bite

1:00:40

into the cake or or the bread. Um.

1:00:44

Yes, it's a really it's a really special

1:00:46

ingredient. It just needs a little bit of time

1:00:49

to to infuse into whatever you're

1:00:51

cooking. So it's not something that really gets

1:00:53

sprinkled on at the end. I mean, you could sprinkle

1:00:55

it on at the end, but it wouldn't That wouldn't be the most effective

1:00:57

way to pull out the flavor. It's really something that

1:00:59

has to be drawn out through the cooking process. So

1:01:03

does the heat, because I know you talked about

1:01:05

the hot water as an indicator of quality,

1:01:07

does it need to actually be like

1:01:09

you can't make a drink that's chilled or

1:01:12

something infuse with saffron. Does it actually need

1:01:14

the heat? You absolutely good. Actually, a scantic

1:01:16

in the way that they that they make

1:01:18

that they make saffron rice often is

1:01:20

to take a couple of saffron threads and

1:01:23

put them in a little bowl with an ice cube um

1:01:26

and and let the ice melt and

1:01:28

let the saffron absorb into the water

1:01:30

as the ice melts. I don't know exactly

1:01:32

why that's, but that's it. That that's that's a

1:01:34

pretty common way to draw

1:01:36

out some of the flavor or saffron and then put that melted

1:01:39

ice to the infused water into the rights

1:01:41

that you're cooking, often adding it at

1:01:43

the very end as sort of a color

1:01:46

kind of you get these stripes of yellow in

1:01:48

the rice, but you've let the saffron infuse into the water,

1:01:50

so you get you get a really great flavor

1:01:53

and works great in cocktails. You can confuse

1:01:55

it into into spirits or

1:01:58

into a simple syrup or something like that. Another

1:02:00

another mixture into the cocktail and

1:02:03

and added that way it has a beautiful

1:02:05

kind of golden bright yellow color. Incredible

1:02:08

intel. We appreciate

1:02:10

it, my man. That's Ethan Fresh, co

1:02:13

founder of Burlap and Barrel,

1:02:16

a direct trade single

1:02:18

origin spice importer.

1:02:21

Thank you so much for joining us on point

1:02:24

of origin. Thanks for having me. Yeah,

1:02:26

I'll talk to you so women, all right. Chow

1:02:29

h m h m hm

1:02:32

m h m h m hm

1:02:35

m h m hm hm

1:02:38

hm hm. That

1:02:41

was Ethan Fresh giving us the lowdown

1:02:43

on Saffron. We hope

1:02:45

you've enjoyed Point of Origin Episode

1:02:47

three, Thanks for hanging out with us. Thanks

1:02:50

to our guest today, Leela el Amine

1:02:52

of the Recipe Hunters, Gordon

1:02:54

Hull of Hydrometerary, and Ethan Frish

1:02:56

of Burlap and Barrel. Thanks

1:02:58

to my partner What's Stone co founder Melissa

1:03:01

she who helped produce this podcast. Thank

1:03:03

you, mel Thanks to supervising

1:03:06

producer Gabrielle Collins to

1:03:09

Cat Hong who edited this podcast. Point

1:03:11

of Origin is a podcast from my Heart

1:03:13

Media and What Stone Magazine, executive

1:03:16

produced by Christopher Hassiotis and

1:03:18

hosted by me Steven Saderfield.

1:03:21

You can listen to more Point of Origin on

1:03:23

the I Heart Media app or wherever

1:03:25

you listen to podcast. And finally,

1:03:28

thank you to each and every one of you who

1:03:30

is supporting What Stone Magazine and

1:03:33

listening to the Point of Origin podcast. We'll

1:03:35

be back soon.